Margit Crane Looking at ADHD in a New Light

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful courage parenting podcast episode 36

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Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage parenting podcast. I am so grateful and honored that you continue to tune in. So today, I'm stoked to share this show with you, because I had the privilege of speaking with Margit crane, who is a ADD and ADHD coach out of Seattle, right? Crazy. Did you know that there were ADD and ADHD coaches? There are and Margit is passionately devoted to making growing up much easier for those ADD and ADHD kids. I can't tell you how often I'm in conversation with parents, whether they be clients or at a parent talk I'm doing, or even just friends. And add ADHD, labeling, diagnosing. Conversation comes up, and I think that there's a lot of, I don't know, there's a lot of misinformation out there, and I was just really glad to have somebody who's more of an expert on this topic. Come on and and chat with me. So Margit is amazing, and she is really an advocate for families and for parents, and also helping, she helps parents navigate, you know, advocacy for their kids in the classroom as well as out in the world. So some of the things that we're going to talk about is, you know, kind of the continuum of behavior and that often we we might miss read some more rambunctious behavior as add and or ADHD, she kind of helps us differentiate between those two things, and also talks about first steps that parents can take to connect and hold space for their add ADHD Kids and how to support them in being successful. So I'm excited. I'm excited for you to listen. I'm excited for your feedback and your questions, and for you to get to know Margit, because she is a really, really fun guest to have on the show. So how about we meet Margot? You? Music. Welcome Margit. I'm so excited to have you on the joyful courage parent podcast.

Margit Crane 3:30
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 3:32
I am fascinated by the work that you do with families. Can you share a little bit about how you find yourself being a leader in the conversation around raising kids with ADD. Well,

Margit Crane 3:45
I myself was diagnosed in 1980 i It wasn't called ADD or ADHD then, but I was one of the first adults to be diagnosed. This is when they first started realizing that add lasts into adulthood or through adulthood, and so I was asked to speak a lot. There were, there were, like three of us young people while I was 23 and they were about the same age, and we were on this like, sort of traveling panel. So we got to speak a lot to therapists and doctors, and they would ask us questions, because we had the perspective of we were adults, but we remembered our childhood, so we could give them a lot of information that they didn't have and information that they couldn't get for kids From kids. And then I went into teaching and I just, I mean, there, there are ADHD kids everywhere. So I my first probably 10 years, I worked with what was called Resource classes. And I. There were a lot of kids with different issues and but a lot of them had ADD and I just loved doing it. And I found out I once, for instance, I had a class one year. It was 16 boys with ADT, and I was so scared.

Casey O'Roarty 5:18
Man, yeah,

Margit Crane 5:21
like this, no, this can't be happening. But it was one of my best classes. I just, I just, was like, Okay, here we go. And I learned so much. So every time I taught a group, I just learned more and more. And then I became a school counselor and sort of, I didn't specialize in special ed, but those students that were underachieving, for instance, or had behavior issues, loved those kids.

Casey O'Roarty 5:52
So So paint us a picture about, you know, of what ADHD or ADD? Well, maybe let's make a distinction. What is the distinction between ADD and ADHD? Because I think a lot of us just kind of a little lump it all together with the slash in the middle, as if they're both the same thing. So

Margit Crane 6:11
it's kind of it is confusing, because it's called attention deficit disorder. So it should be add and it was ADD and ADHD was sort of a subset, which to my way of thinking. It still is, but the approved terminology is ADHD. So the difference between the H is hyperactivity. So typically, girls will have more of the distraction, the dreamy side to them. And so often they're diagnosed with ADD or not diagnosed, and they have ADD without the hyperactivity. And typically, although not always, boys tend to be more physical in their manifestation of of Attention Deficit Disorder. And so they'll tend to have the H. I am a girl, woman, and I have, I have the H.

Casey O'Roarty 7:14
So as we Okay, so as we move forward in conversation, what would be like, the appropriate way for me to refer to, kind of the umbrella. So that's ADHD, okay, okay, then I'm gonna do that. So awesome. Thank you. Paint us a picture of what ADHD parenting looks like.

Margit Crane 7:37
It looks like. So first of all, the parents that of kids with ADHD, they're like heroes on this journey. It's like pushing a rock up a hill. The information that's out there is often denigrating to the kids, denigrating to the parents. And this isn't true of all special needs parents and special needs families, but with ADHD, there's a lot of negative misinformation. So it can be there is a tremendous amount of stress, because there's a feeling that unless I get this, then all of that must be true. If I can't parent my child correctly, if nothing is working, then maybe it's true. Maybe I am a bad parent, like the misinformation says, maybe my child just needs a spanking, like the misinformation says those kind of things. So, so there's there's confusion, there's frustration, there's fear. I guess you could say, you know, some shame about because you don't want to be ridiculed. It's very common for teachers to say, I don't know what else to do. And it's like, really, you're a teacher. I mean, I was a teacher too. If I didn't know what to do with somebody, I asked around, right? You know? So it's hard being the parent of an ADHD child. It's like, because you can't just take So, for instance, if, if telling a non ADHD child, if telling them to if, sorry, telling them to do something twice is enough and then they'll do it, you would think, Okay, well, if I tell an ADHD child five times, that will be enough. But in fact, it doesn't work. And the issue is that you can't just take a parenting technique that works with non ADHD kids and just sort of augmented or decorated. And you know. Um, and that it works for somebody with ADD or ADHD, it's, it's a different way of parenting, because you've got different things going on, and it's just confusing, right?

Casey O'Roarty 10:14
And do you think the confusion comes from, you know, the parents lens is just, you know, unless a parent is an ADHD diagnosed parent, the lens that they see the world out of is just different than the lens that the child sees the world out of. So is it a matter, which I think is true for all parent child, right? But with an extra special flavoring. And

Margit Crane 10:42
yes, I agree with you, and part of that extra special flavoring is that it looks like your child is being defiant. And that's not really what's happening, even though it looks just like it, and it's really hard to think of it as anything else. And so there begins to be this sort of, you know, cross purposes and and tension and battling and that sort of thing. And that doesn't work either, sure. So that's what's confusing about it. Is a lot of times it looks like, I mean, it look, it looks clearly like x, but it's not x, and that's confusing.

Casey O'Roarty 11:28
Oh, that is confusing. So what would you say is something that the parents who are coming to you for help are struggling with the most? Is it this defiance piece? Is it the seeing underneath the behavior?

Margit Crane 11:42
I would say the top three things would be something to do with making the school understand what's going on. You know, there, there isn't a lot of teacher education around ADHD and people. I mean, I've done lectures, you know, talks and presentations to teachers and school counselors, and the assumption is we know what that is, but that, but the information is old, and so they don't have the tools to deal with ADHD students. So that's the first thing parents come to me about. The second thing would be a behavior thing, like, I tell them 10 times and they still don't do it. Or they say they're going to do it and and then they never get to it. Or, you know, they'll say, like, well, I'll do it in a minute, and then that the minute goes by and nothing happens. So how do you so there's, you know, how do you create a structure that's not jail? Because nobody wants to be in jail? Well, that's not healthy and Exactly. And there's this dilemma of, well, if they have ADHD, and that's part of what's going on, I can't really punish them, can I? And of course, my response is, this isn't about reward and punishment. You know, there's, it's, there's a different way to approach it, but, but, you know, sort of the general world looks at things as you know, like reward and punishment, unfortunately. And then the third thing actually would be something to do with being really attached to the phone or computer games, something like that. And that's pretty tricky, because there is a social component to that. So for some kids, especially, what they tell me, it's not just the the process of doing whatever it is, the texting or the Minecraft, which is actually good for your brain, in my opinion, it that it's not just doing that, it's also the connection you make with people so so having to postpone that connection when you already know that you don't fit neatly into the world is painful, literally painful.

Casey O'Roarty 14:17
Yeah, and are those are the ADHD kids pretty aware of knowing that they're not the same as everybody else. Would you say?

So

Margit Crane 14:36
I wouldn't say that they're emotionally or socially savvy, necessarily, but it's obvious that we're not the same because we're in a classroom and we can see, how does she How does she do that? How does she just sit there and take a test and someone walks in the door and she doesn't look over, right? Or, you know, we. See the majority of people behaving differently than us. So yeah, we know, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 15:04
well, and I think, in my opinion, the traditional classroom is not necessarily a great place for boys in general. It's

Margit Crane 15:14
not a great place for so many people. Yeah, right, but, but it's certainly not built for somebody with ADHD, right? I mean, unless, in my case, it's kind of ironic. I went to a private, sort of experimental school, not sort of it was an experimental school, and I everything I suggested to help me, you know, like, Oh, can I listen to music? That's alternative. Can I listen to music? Sure, and then I would get no, nobody can study with music, kind of thing and and everything. So, so the rules there weren't rules there it was. I mean, it was just hard to read it, whereas when I went to public school, it was very clear cut. Was what was expected. And I liked public school because I didn't have to, I didn't have to make a decision and be embarrassed that, you know, I choose music. Well, you can't choose music. That's completely wrong. You know, it was like this. There were decisions that were they were just part of the deal. You know, I didn't, there weren't decisions. I mean, the structure was part of the deal, and I liked that, yeah, so, but that's

Casey O'Roarty 16:31
me well, and behavior shows up on a continuum, right? So I remember wondering absolutely when so I have a 10 year old son and a 13 year old daughter, and when my son was younger. And, you know, typical, I think, you know, rough and tumble boy, but I remember, because there's some ADHD in my family wondering, you know, Oh, I wonder if, what are the signs I don't know? And you feel, I feel like, every time we turn around or I talked to another parent, you know, it seems like a lot of the families that I work with have one, at least one kid with ADHD. And so I was thinking, what is this? And so then I read a book which highlighted the fact that there are, you know, behaviors on a continuum, and a lot of the time extreme, for lack of a better word, but far out on on one side of the continuum, extreme boy behavior, which is difficult for a classroom environment, can often be labeled as ADHD behavior. So what's your take on the trend in diagnosing or even, do you see, like, do you see a trend? I know that for some people, like, it shows up in brain scans. While you know, you hear other people say, just stop eating red dye, you know, nutrition and environment, like, where do you stand on all of that conversation?

So

Margit Crane 18:02
this is my stance. My stance is, first of all, I don't want to cure because there's nothing wrong with me. If ADHD can be cured, it can definitely be made better by a number of alternative modalities, chiropractic, massage, acupuncture, changing the way you eat, all sorts of things like that, essential oils, it can definitely be changed in the sense of the edges taken off, is how I would put it right. But, but if, if those modalities take away the behavior and all that stuff, then that's not even ADHD, because ADHD is more than just behavior, right? It's, it's a whole gamut of ways to interact with the world, to process information. And I wouldn't, personally, I wouldn't give that up for the world. I loved having ADHD, and, you know, I it just really bothers me when people you know, talk about, oh, well, it's lead, or it's this, or it's that, you know, well, of course, lead is bad, but not having lead doesn't change the way I interact with the world in my awesomeness. Now, as far as diagnosis, the trend is to over and under diagnose. Okay, still, girls are being ignored because they tend to have the more dreamy quality, and a lot of diagnoses are coming from teachers, which is illegal. A teacher should not be saying that you should have your child tested for ADHD. Um. Them that they are not a diagnostician. It is legal to do that a school counselor, the same you can say, here's the behavior I'm seeing, and you might want to take them to a pediatrician and get some stuff checked out so that you can rule out anything, or so that you can find out what's going on, but you have no. Mean, teachers have no I don't even know if somebody has ADHD. There's a lot of things that look like ADHD. So to say, you know, is not accurate,

Casey O'Roarty 20:35
well, and I think that's where I was going, right? There's a lot of things, especially thinking about the classroom, right? And that expectation that everybody should be able to sit every five year old should be able to sit still, which is inappropriate for, you know, for five year olds. And awesome, great for yay, for those five year olds that it's not in that it is in their temperament to sit quietly. Um, I also work with teachers, and we do a workshop around working with kids exposed to trauma, yes, and a lot of kids that have been exposed to trauma, it shows up in their behavior, and it's not ADHD, right? It looks like it, it looks like it. And so that's kind of where I was curious, where I got curious around what you thought, because there's also just typical, yet sometimes not unmanageable, but, you know, inconvenient behaviors that kids show up with because they're kids, and they all have different temperaments. And so I'm just curious about like, you know, but I think you spoke into that. I mean, yeah, if you're going to change the environment, if you're going to change their food, and it helps them to show up differently, then it goes

Margit Crane 21:49
away. If it goes away, it's not ADHD exactly like an allergy, right? You know? But, I mean, there is a way that we that ADHD people think about stuff. And if you let somebody talk, you can hear that I work in a workspace, co working space, and there are a lot of gamers and techie people, and I can hear the and then they'll tell me, Oh, I have ADHD, because they know what I do, but you can hear it when they talk about what they do. You can hear, you know, like there's one gamer, and he says, I just think everything's a game. And I'm like, I get it. So, yeah, so,

Casey O'Roarty 22:40
well, what kind of tips do you give to parents for advocating in the classroom for their kids? Because that was one of the main things that you said, parents come to you. I think that's the toughest thing, right? Because they're also parents that probably get a lot of phone calls from the school. They're feeling like the school isn't necessarily rooting for them, or can feel that way. What? What are some tips that you give parents for advocating? Well,

Margit Crane 23:03
first, I just want to say I do have a book. It is free on my website called getting schooled, and it's and the way it's written, I wrote it from the point of view of all the constituents, because I've been all of them, right? So there's the point of view of the school counselor, the point of view of the teacher, the point of view of the kid, the point of view of the parent, and it's tips for all of them to understand what's going on with each of them. It's also available Kindle and paperback on Amazon, but

Casey O'Roarty 23:37
I'll put a link in the show notes so that people can get right to it so,

Margit Crane 23:41
so one of the things is to be really clear I do. Can I give you a website? Sure, give and take. So it's called Rights law.com it's W, R, I, G, H, T, E, S, and then Law Order, and it has a lot of explanations about what is legal and what is not legal, as far as kids with ADHD and other disabilities. So some of the things that I tell parents is that some some schools will say that they will support your child, but if you're in a public school, I really recommend getting a 504 plan, or an Individualized Educational Plan, which is called an IEP, for short, a 504 plan is 504 is, was a, I believe a Senate bill that number 504 that was that covers. It's the Americans with Disabilities Act, and ADHD is covered under that. So some schools because they don't want to do it. I will say, well, that's special ed. Okay? It's not special ed. It puts in writing that your child is eligible for these accommodations or this support, and it makes it a legal document, and as such, it must be followed. A lot of parents, they'll have that in place, but the school won't be following it. So I will coach the family on how to, you know, talk to the teachers and talk, you know, that kind of thing and and really, what's really very, very important is it sounds contrary, but it works is to not tell the teacher or the school counselor how important your child's education is. They know that it's actually to act to ask them, What can I do to support you, because nobody ever asks

Casey O'Roarty 26:03
teachers, right, right? So if

Margit Crane 26:07
you want to get a teacher on your side, you want to let them know that you are available to them, and it's really important to make sure that they are enforcing the 504 plan. So if it's not being followed, you need to make a call, send an email, go in there and and make that known like it's not being followed and it needs to be followed. I mean, it's a legal document,

Casey O'Roarty 26:39
yeah, well, and I want to say too. I mean, I've been volunteering in the classroom for the last eight or nine years, and I was a school teacher prior to that, and I think there's some teachers doing an amazing job with all kids, for sure. So I just want to put that out there too, that it's not necessarily, you know, that we're always in competition or fighting at the school level. And and a vast majority of parents who are just trying to support their kids have a tough time with the school environment. So and

Margit Crane 27:11
when I ask in my Facebook group, you know, I've got like 2500 people in that group, and I say, tell me a good story about your ADHD child and school. I get some good stories. And I also get, wow, I wish I was in that school district. Oh, it's nice to hear that story, but that's not my experience at all. So many, many parents are going through situations that do not support the child, is what i Those are the people I hear. What I know in reality is that, like you said, there are like, amazing teachers, amazing support, and it depends on the district. I mean, some of the districts, like, I knew somebody in South Carolina. I met somebody, a mom in South Carolina at a convention, and she was getting nothing from the school district. It was just so,

you know, it kind of depends. It's it's rough and it breaks my heart. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 28:25
yeah. Well, and I remember having a little guy in my class. I taught up in a tiny town in the mountains, and I taught first through fourth grade, and I had this little boy who mom came in and met me the very first day. She was lovely. We developed a relationship, which I knew very quickly was important. And she, you know, did not want to medicate, and was very strong on that. And I remember, you know, looking for all sorts of solutions. And one of the solutions for this little guy in my class was, you know, if you need to, if it helps you to do your work and stand up, you can. And I remember the other teachers, or the helpers in my classroom saying, oh my gosh, what are you doing? It's going to be pandemonium. Everybody's going to want to stand up. And not one of my students, it was so clear that this is what this individual student needed, and they didn't. Nobody, you know, the kids are, are really aware

Margit Crane 29:23
they either want to stand or they don't. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 29:25
and then the mom did end up doing a little like, kind of dabbling in medication. And it was yes, the child was like, I guess the word is calmer, but he was also, it wasn't the same kid, you know he was. It was really DIS and because, yeah, it was really disturbing, almost, when

Margit Crane 29:48
he showed up that way. Here's my take on medication. Yeah, this is what's supposed to happen on medication. You are supposed to feel like a better version of yourself. So I've seen many. Medication work. It worked twice for me, it doesn't work. Not every medication will work, but when it works, oh, my God, it feels sorry, but it feels feels amazing. It's it feels like, oh, that piece of me that I couldn't put my finger on is back, and I feel whole. It's that's how you're supposed to feel. So if your child doesn't feel like that, then you're just managing behavior with the pill and that, you know you you want your child to feel better about themselves, not worse about themselves, right? And just because a teacher can't handle your child doesn't mean that there's no other solution, sure, besides medication. But I am not I am in the right circumstances. Medication is awesome.

Casey O'Roarty 30:58
So talk a little bit about the experience of the parents. So I imagine that loving children with ADD and ADHD can be a beautiful and exhausting experience. Yeah, so speaking to like what is, what the experience is like with the for the parents that you meet, because we love our kids and they make us crazy, even the ones that aren't labeled with anything. And

Margit Crane 31:24
so, for instance, kids with ADHD, in my experience, tend to be extremely compassionate, which you wouldn't necessarily assume. So you've got these kids, and they also tend to have pretty high IQs. So you've got these kids that are really smart, and you're trying to be the parent, but they can outsmart you, and so that's really like, I don't even know what to do. Should I give up? Should I try harder? Should I you know? What do I do? So there are confusing differences. He's compassionate, but not with me, kind of thing. You know, everybody at school loves him, but he then he comes home and just totally acts out around the house. Or, you know, I feel like I have to child proof my home in a whole different way. Because, I mean, it's almost like living it's like, I think it's adorable and wonderful, but that's why I'm laughing. But you know, it's like living with this scientist who wants to experiment with everything so and and just, I mean, like, I, I wanted to see what it was like if you stapled your finger. So I did that when I was five.

Casey O'Roarty 32:52
Ow. I know what that's like. It sucks, hurts, but I, I, you know, so like that I have, and

then we say, Why did you do that? To which you have no answer, because the answer just came to me, the

Margit Crane 33:07
answer and would not like, how interesting is that? Come on, I had a kid that he would take the like oven cleaner, but like a barbecue cleaner, like a spray Barbecue Cleaner, and then with this hand, he'd like spray, and with this hand he'd light the Oh

Casey O'Roarty 33:28
yeah, Fireball.

Margit Crane 33:32
So, you know, so it's not just, it's so there's child proofing, and then there's ADHD proofing in your house. And sometimes it's like what you have to do to ADHD proof your house can be, can be an in position on the other members of the family. And so there's that also in the ADHD kid tends to be blamed for what's going on, and then that lowers their self esteem more. So this is why I do what I do. In fact, the solutions are so much easier, but I know that because I've been doing this for I mean, in effect, I've been doing this for 3035 years. I was diagnosed, like 36 years ago, so I've got this down. I've done all the footwork for all of you. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 34:29
well, and what I'm hearing you say is not that, you know kids, these kids are getting into mischief because they're naughty, but simply because they're curious exactly, and they're interested, and that they have lots of I wonders what will happen if, which I think a lot of kids do too. So in a lot of conversations that I have with parents and on the podcast, one of the themes that comes up, and I'd be interested in knowing how it shows up and with this kind of parenting is. How the importance of connection and relationship? Oh, yeah, yeah,

Margit Crane 35:04
absolutely vital. And I this is what I talk to teachers and school counselors about also, is the connection is the thing. So I look at it long term, great, what you want is a relationship with your child into adulthood. The connection is that's, you know, sort of Ground Zero, or whatever you want to call it, you know, that's the basic thing you need to connect. So I'm sure you know this and agree is that it's not about reward and punishment. It's about connection, right? And so and skill building, not that skills building, yes, and that's what I do. I don't even call myself a coach, except for if legally that needs to be said. But I am a Skills Builder. I am a strategies builder. And I do believe that there needs to be structure, and I do believe for ADHD kids. I mean, I'm a positive discipline trainer, but I spin it for ADHD because there has to be, there have to be a few different things. But if there's no connection, and also the process I use is all about connection, it's a very different process than what parents are used to doing. And you have to have the connection. If you're not connecting, you need to back up a bit, yeah, you know, and not worry about the future, and not worry about, you know, what college they're going to get into, but make sure that connection is there, because ultimately, that is the most important thing you can do for a lifelong relationship,

Casey O'Roarty 37:01
yeah, and I'm sure that you're encouraging parents in their self care practice too.

Margit Crane 37:08
Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. In fact, that needs to come. I mean, not that you would ignore your child and put yourself first, but if you're not healthy, it's you're not going to do your child much good, right? You know, if you're suffering from anxiety or depression, it's going to sort of pour over onto the children and anybody else in the household. It's really important to to take care of your own mental and physical health. Absolutely,

Casey O'Roarty 37:40
yeah, especially when you're, you know, when you are spending time having tough conversations with, whether it's schools or childcare places or, you know, dealing with the looks at the grocery store or whatever, right, which we all, I mean, we all have to navigate all that crap, right? And I can only imagine the leveling up that happens when you have a child with, you know, any kind of special need.

Margit Crane 38:05
Well, yeah. And, I mean, some parents, you know, I had a recent conversation about a parent, you know, can I use a leash? And I was like, I don't even, I mean, what they were saying was, my child will run away from me, and they could run into the parking lot and get killed.

Casey O'Roarty 38:29
They make those awesome backpacks. Now,

Margit Crane 38:32
honestly, I don't even, I mean, I don't know what it's like to be afraid that your child will run into traffic. Yeah. And so I was like, You know what I I don't know what to say. It sounds it sounds horrific, right? But, I mean, I think even worse would be a dead child, you know, kind of thing. So it was like,

Casey O'Roarty 38:57
I've gotten a lot more compassionate about the parents with toddlers that were wearing the little animal backpacks with handles on them, because I had all sorts of opinions prior to having some young kids that like to run away. But well, thank you so much for being on the show. This was so fascinating, and I'm so excited, because I know that this is going to be not only helpful for the listeners, but also giving them a place to go, a person to talk to. I'm going to make sure your website is on the in the show notes, as well as your Facebook what's the name of your Facebook group? Do you know? Well,

Margit Crane 39:36
I do know it's going to change right now. It's that the URL has gifted with ADD, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 39:47
but you're changing it.

Margit Crane 39:48
I am, but the URL will stay the same. Okay? Because you can't change that. Okay, I'm gonna be locked to brilliant. I like locked to brilliant. Yes, I like it too. Yeah. And. It sort of applies to the parents also, which is also why I like it. You know, you can be like, let me help you be the brilliant parent that you dream of being and that you were meant to be. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 40:13
And I like that language too, because when I think of blocked, I think of like a fist, and there really isn't any space for possibility or creativity when, when we have the fist, but then opening it up, like that brilliance piece reminds me of like an open hand, where anything is possible, right? Solutions are available. Creativity is there? Love that. Okay, well, I'm gonna put all of that in the show notes, including a link to your free book getting schooled. Great, exciting resource. And then I have a lot my last question, which is, I can't wait

Margit Crane 40:45
for this question. Yay,

Casey O'Roarty 40:46
good. What does joyful courage mean to you? Margit,

Margit Crane 40:50
so I was thinking about that, and the first thing that came to me was that I think it's courageous to be joyful these days. I mean, I think we, or at least this United States, Ian world, we tend to value overwhelm, and, you know, extra hard work, like, if you're happy, maybe you're not tackling what your potential is, or maybe you're not doing enough like happy, isn't it's not a it's not okay to be happy or joyful. And so I think going for joy as as a parent, as an individual, is super courageous. And you know people that do that, I just applaud you. I think that's fantastic. Go for joy.

Casey O'Roarty 41:46
Yeah, go for joy. Listeners, thank you so so much for being on the show. Margaret. I really appreciate all your wisdom, and hopefully we can talk again soon. That would be awesome. All right, have a great day. Casey

Margaret crane is the bomb. Wasn't that a great interview? I had so much fun talking to her. Check the show notes, you will see all of the links that were mentioned in the conversation, including Margaret's free eBook for parents getting schooled, as well as wrightslaw.com where you can find more information about legal resources and support for The people you love with ADD and ADHD, yeah. Also in the show notes, you will see a link for checking out that common connected parenting program from Maslow. Remember I started the podcast with my little commercial? Well, check out the show notes, check out the links, check out the program, see if it's something that you might be interested in, and send me an email. Casey at joyful courage.com. Is my email address, and put Maslow coupon in the subject line, and I will dial you in with a code, a coupon code, so that you can do the program for free. It's pretty rad. So do it, and don't forget to join the joyful courage tribe and our community Facebook group. Live in love with joyful courage. Just search for that in Facebook, and then you'll see it pop up and you asked to join, and I accept you. You can also follow me on Instagram at joyful underscore courage. On Twitter, at joyful courage. And I am on Pinterest, but I'm not very good at Pinterest, so just go to Instagram or Twitter or Facebook, and you'll find me there, alright, and in the show notes, if you're on the joyful courage.com on the website, you will see that there is a form to fill out if you're interested in being on the newsletter list, you will receive sort of regular emails from me every three weeks or so. I send out an email with a bundle of the podcast that that you may have missed, and a blog post if I've written them, and information about any live events coming up, plus it's a little bit of inspiration for your morning. I try to keep it light, and I share about my own muck that I'm navigating in the moment of writing the newsletter. So there's that too. Join the community. Big, huge love to each and every one of you, and I will talk to you soon. Bye.

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