Jen O’Ryan and How to Support LGBTQ Youth

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Hey everybody, welcome to episode 35 of the joyful courage parenting podcast. I'm your host. What do you think about my intro? I really love doing the podcast, and I do all of the editing and formatting and putting out into the world work, and it takes a lot of time, and time is money my friends. So I'm looking for sponsors for the podcast. I'm looking for ways to make it so that I can keep doing the podcast, and one of the ways is, yeah, doing kind of mini commercials. So what do you think I feel a little bit uncomfortable with it, but I'm gonna decide that that discomfort is really growth happening and stretching into something that I need to be embracing. So yay. And guess what? The Maslow program that I talk about at the beginning, it really is super duper amazing and something that I believe in. So you know what? I'm good with it, and I hope you are too. Today on the podcast, I'm so excited to have Dr Jen Orion, come and talk to us about kids that come out, kids that come out as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer. You know, there's all those labels and words that we hear about. We know more and more that schools and communities are trying to make the space ever more inclusive of all different kinds of people. So Dr Jen O'Reilly provides guidance for parents to help them navigate their child's coming out process, as well as questions about sexuality and gender. She completed her doctorate in human behavior and how to focus on environmental factors during childhood and adolescence for sexual minorities, Dr Jen also works closely with other caring adults on developing more inclusive safe spaces for LGBTQ individuals in the workplace and in the community, and through years of research and advocacy, Jen brings an extensive background on factors contributing to healthy development during childhood and adolescence for LGBTQ youth, I'm really, really excited that I was able to have a conversation with Jen and ask some really pointed questions around not only, how do we support our own children, how Do we support the children in our lives, right? Even when we might not be the parent of the child who's coming out, we might be the neighbor or the aunt or the grandparent. What does support look like from those caring adults? Not only that, how do we talk to our kids who are not LGBTQ kids? About, you know acceptance about being open minded and having perspective and and being allies and advocates for all kids and all people. Anyway, I'm really, really excited to share this conversation with you, and I hope that you enjoy it too. So let's talk to Jen. You. Jen, welcome to the show, Jen, I'm so excited to have you here.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 3:29
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be a guest on your podcast. Yay.

Casey O'Roarty 3:35
Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, please, and your story and how you found yourself working with families?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 3:42
Sure, so it actually goes back to the early 2000s I was invited to join a community advisory board for youth group, peer to peer outreach Youth Group here in Seattle. It's called empowerment. It was associated with lifelong AIDS Alliance, and as part of my role in that, I got to interact with a lot of the youth and talk to them, and they shared some of their stories with me about growing up and some of the struggles with their family and their friends and the whole coming out process. And it really opened my eyes to the experiences that these kids were going through and at such a young age to be challenged with managing that, you know, at 1415, years old, took a tremendous amount of courage, and so that kind of stuck with me. I was with the program for a couple years, and then life kind of got in the way. Work took over and smash cut. A few years later, I decided that I really wanted to pursue my PhD, that that was something that I felt I needed to do, and I really wanted to focus on something to do with the LGBTQ community. What that was, I really wasn't sure, but I'm like, Well, I have several years to figure it out, so let's just start. So I found a program that really. Resonated me, with me, and it covered the entire human experience, childhood, aging, eating disturbances, addiction, everything. So I pursued that and started focusing again, gravitating more towards LGBTQ issues in that space. And what I found was so much of the research demonstrated, I'm sure, as you're familiar and your listeners are as well, the higher rates and risks for negative outcome for the segment of the population. And what really struck me is that every article, every study that I looked at, almost treated growing up as LGBTQ as a risk factor. And I'm like, Well, I think we're looking at this the wrong way. And so my dissertation actually focused on, what are the environmental influences that contribute to healthy development, you know, maybe, maybe, instead of looking at, you know, our gay kids are at risk for these outcomes, start looking at, what are we doing in their early environment that's that's doing this to them, that's causing them to be at risk and and so what I found was, yeah, it's, it's all about early messages that are received when the child's from birth. Really, even before they're born a child, you know, the gender is identified, and they're kind of sent down this pink or blue trajectory, and that's the track that they are on, and very little deviation. And so in my research, I found that there's a lot of early adrenal activity around five or six years old, but occurs because we think of middle childhood as kind of this, not as rapid development as we see in infancy or as adolescents, but there's actually a lot going on.

Casey O'Roarty 6:39
Yeah, in his middle childhood, like that five to 10 range. Okay, okay, exactly,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 6:44
exactly. And so what I found is that there's, there's this adrenal activities kind of acts as a precursor for puberty later on, and that's when you start to see the emergence of schoolyard crushes and expressions of attractions and that kind of thing. And for a lot of for a lot of LGBTQ individuals, that's when they really start to experience that first awareness, right? And some earlier, some some as early as two or three years old. But really it seems to be that that five to six years old. And so that's where, you know, parental awareness and parental engagement around this idea of sexual orientation and gender identity expression is so critical, because that's usually who who observes this first expression,

Casey O'Roarty 7:33
right? And, you know, it just makes me think about, you know, I think about that young kid on the playground, and, like you said, they're having their first initiation into Am I fitting in with what I know, quote know to be true about boys versus or girls, or am I having thoughts or feelings that don't fit or aren't in alignment with these what I know, quote know To be true about boys and girls, and then what I imagine happens after that is a sense of, I'm wrong or I'm bad, or I don't fit or and what I'm hearing you say is the more aware that parents can be around their response, around their openness, around you know how they are themselves defining gender. You know that's going to hold the space for kids to just go from Oh, I must be wrong or bad, to oh, I'm different, or I have other ideas about that, with no judgment, rather than, like, some self judgment,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 8:35
exactly. And honestly, what I found is that most parents, really, I mean, they want to support their kids. They want to get they love their kids. I want them to have this full expression and be able to express their entire self and what that means for them. But oftentimes, I mean, we're so we have these lenses, we have these filters, and we just kind of filter information out very quickly, and we don't even realize we're doing it. So so some of the parental redirection that I've, I've seen, really comes from a place of, well, you know, to to your son, you know you'll, you'll, Someday, you'll grow up, and you'll marry a woman, and you'll have a family of your own. And it's like, well, let's take a step back that that child might actually marry a man, might actually choose not to marry, might choose to go to college. But again, it kind of goes back to that pink and blue trajectory that that we just kind of have this map envisioned for our children. And some parents can really struggle with this realization that, you know, the kid comes out as transgender at a very young age, or as lesbian or gay or bisexual, and then what does the parent do with that? And how do they learn? And there are some resources out there, but it can be really intimidating to find them

Casey O'Roarty 9:44
Sure, yeah, and we're going to continue to talk today about the work of supporting adults who live and love their kids who are coming out and questioning and exploring gender and sexual orientation. So so let's start at a really basic piece. So. What is happening today for kids who are questioning their gender, not even questioning, I mean, because they don't question it, they know, right? It's the rest of us that are like, whoa. I don't know what to do with this information. And what does this mean? And I'm scared, and I want, you know, like we get all in our stuff, yes. Um, so like, what is the, what is the typical experience for these kids that are coming out?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 10:23
Well, it's, it's, it's so dependent on their environment. This is just a huge generalization. Your actual mileage may vary. I can't put enough qualifiers around this, but oftentimes children will start to realize either they they are a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth, which is where we get into the transgender individuals or gender non conforming. And I am not a fan of the term gender non conforming, so I think that still carries with it some stigma.

Casey O'Roarty 10:50
What does that what does that mean? It means so, so

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 10:54
I don't necessarily identify as a male or female, or I identify as a female today or a male tomorrow. And it just, it's more around that Fluidity of Gender. So thinking of gender as a spectrum the same way we do a sexual orientation, right? And really, it's, it's for the kids. I mean, you touched on a great point. It's, it's for the child themselves to be able to identify, this is the experience in and this, this is how they choose to identify. And so that's where we're seeing a lot more gender neutral pronouns, they than theirs, z there, that kind of thing. And this is where it kind of gets confusing for parents. Is because we're, I think most people are familiar with the whole LGBT, but LGB really has to do with sexual orientation. And then the T is transgender, which is a gender identity, which really, in my perspective, is very different. And we kind of put them all together with with the Q at the end, which can stand for either questioning or queer, depending. And it's become this umbrella term for how we think of sexual minorities, but they really are very, very, very distinct. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:08
well, in we live, you're in Seattle, right? Yes. So I feel like we're kind of in this pocket, and maybe it's just my what I think, but I feel like we're in a pocket of the country that's really open and curious and looking for ways of being better for these kids. Do you find that the trends across the country are the same as what's happening Seattle? I mean, I have friends who work in schools in Seattle where the school as a as a system is creating, you know, just like basic things like using the bathroom and and, and allowing for kids to use the bathroom that they that, you know, that fits the gender that they're that, that they feel like they are a part of. And is this something that's happening across the board or, I mean, I can imagine, no, but you know, are there other places where these conversations are happening? Are you working with families outside of our little progressive pocket of the Pacific Northwest that are finding a friendlier world for them and their kids?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 13:19
I definitely am Yes, and it's interesting to hear that parents, even in in rural communities and communities that you would traditionally think of as very conservative, there are still pockets of support. Because I think one of the one of the best things to really change people's perspective on this is the humanizing element. I

right? So what we see a lot of is we will have these very conservative individuals, and then their child, or their cousin or their uncle will will come out as lesbian or gay, and and then they're like, Oh, well, you're not this horrible thing that I thought you were. You're an actual person and humanized. So let's have that conversation. So I mean that said there is still a lot to be done as far as institutionalized discrimination and discriminator discriminatory policies right now in Washington State, I don't know if you're familiar with this, but we've had a bill introduced into the house and to the Senate at the state level to repeal the protections that are already in place for transgender individuals, and those were voted down, and now we have individuals presenting to have it added to the ballot in November. So so it'll actually go for up for public vote, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 14:43
well, so yeah, I did know that because I heard something on public radio about a transgender individual making a point of being available at a coffee shop. I think it was Olympia or Tacoma, and they just. Wanted to show up and say, Hey, come have conversation with me, regardless of where you fall, conversation and listen to my story and ask your questions and let me ask questions. And I think that that's such a powerful forwarding way of of educating people. And of, like you said, of humanizing, what are some of the shifts in society that you think have made this conversation possible. What are some big shifts that you're seeing as a whole that are opening the door to this kind of conversation, to normalizing right, to just, this is, like you said, it's just, it's not good, bad. There shouldn't be judgment on it. It's and I was listening also on public radio to a woman who is part of the LBGTQ community. She's also autistic, and she was a grad student, and was just talking about, she was talking in regards to autism, where the mindset is, how do we fix this, versus like, how do we see this as simply another way of being, right? And I think that same conversation could happen here, right? This is just another way of being in the world.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 16:12
Yes, yes, exactly, exactly. And it's, it's not a, it's not a fixed, fixed marker necessarily, either. I mean, going back to that gender fluidity. Yeah, we, we've been talking for years about getting away from the gender binary and this whole, you know, gay, straight, cisgender, transgender, and we just, we love our labels so much it's really difficult to get rid of them. So yeah, even even terms like, you know, cisgender and transgender still is compartmentalizing people. So, yeah, but getting back to your larger question. So one of the things that I think is really shifted in society, I think it's a couple different things. So for sure, the whole conversation around marriage equality brought that to the kitchen table and brought it, you know, opened up a lot of conversations around, you know, why are we treating citizens differently? Equal protection under the law means exactly that. And so I think that helped. I think a lot of the shift, you know, celebrities adding, adding their status to this, you know, Ellen, coming out as gay was huge. And being an openly gay actress, because, you know, I You can't be what you can't see. And so if you're a gay kid growing up, eight, 910, years old, and everything you see is through this heteronormative lens, right, then you start to think you're the only one, and nobody's talking about it. And that's really crushing for a child to have to carry around that they're the only one. There's some secret that they need to that they need to hide. And so just seeing it on television, seeing it being talked about on the news, has been huge. And also, I mean, the biggest thing is really the access to information that kids have. So when I did when I did my research study, I had individuals who were in late 30s, early 40s, and one as young as 24 and this is all published, so the second disclose, and really the biggest difference between the generations was the 24 year old obviously had access to information on the internet, had access to gay straight alliances in school, and so had a much better time finding terms and vocabulary to fit their feelings and what they were experiencing, whereas the older generation didn't have that. You can find it even in a book. You'd be ostracized if you asked your librarian for anything like that. And so yeah, I think just access to information and access to these virtual communities that kids are creating now it's they. They know early that they're not alone, even if they're in a environment that's not supportive, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 18:46
what are the biggest things that LGBTQ kids are struggling with? Do you think now, even with all this access to information and being able to come together in community, what do you think, what are some of the things that they're still struggling with? I

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 19:01
think there's still as a whole, I think they're still struggling with the stigma associated with with being LGBTQ. I think there's still a lot of stigma. I think there's still a lot of politics that are that are driving that. I mean, when you think about, if we go back to early messages, when these kids are really young, theoretically, they their first bully could be their family. You know, before their child is even aware that this is their sexual orientation, they could be hearing horrible things about gay people from their family, potentially from their religious institution and their schools and their peers and everybody else. And so that that continues to be a struggle, and even for kids who are who are in supportive environments, there's still a lot of that fear about coming out, about saying to your parents, I'm gay, terrifying. And oftentimes what we see with adolescents is they really miss out on that to. Traditional adolescent arc. So if they're in the closet, they're not dating who they want to date. They're not going to prom with the person they want. They're not having their heart broken, you know, by the love of their life at the age of 16, they're not able to have those experiences. And honestly, I think those are absolutely critical, yeah, for the developmental process. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 20:20
what do you think the biggest things are when you're working with families, right? So what do you think are some of the biggest things that their parents are struggling with in the process of them coming out and being who they are?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 20:34
Oh, that's a great question. Um, I think the parents struggle with a couple different things. I think they struggle with all this new terminology that they're not familiar with, and they they don't, they may not know where to go, like you don't want to type into Wikipedia, you know what? What is pansexual? What is what does this mean? And so finding resources. But I think oftentimes they struggle, because sometimes parents know very early on that they're that their kids are are gay or transgender, and some it's a complete surprise. And so growing up with this, this child, and raising this child, and then they come out, and the parents often don't know how to react, and that that surprise and that lack of of reaction can be interpreted by the child as a rejection, right? And so that just builds up a lot of, you know, the struggles that kind of go along with adolescence anyway, but then can become more complicated when you factor this in. And oftentimes, sorry, just one last thing, oh, you're good, yeah. Oftentimes parents have a lot of questions about, How do I talk to my kid about sexual health and making good sexual choices? You know? How do I how do I talk to my lesbian daughter about being safe and dating and that kind of thing, and answer her sexual questions when I don't even know, you know, or or with a gay son,

Casey O'Roarty 21:52
right? And I imagine, too, that you know, like so many things, you know, we might have an idea in our mind about where we stand on something, and then when we're confronted with it in our own child, you know, it's our body lets us know what we really think about it right exactly

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 22:11
in that moment. Yes. And some people that can be very surprising, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 22:15
And then it's and then an internal struggle around what does this mean about me, that I'm I'm not as open minded as I thought, or why am I having this response when you know this was where I stood around this and so do you support parents through that whole process as well?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 22:29
I do. I do, yeah, and it's a lot of it's almost like a coaching process. So it's almost like, okay, let's, here's, here's where we are. Let's unpack the situation. Let's get some some resources around terms that you can use, and what does this all mean, and then really helping them come up with strategies. So when x comes up, let's talk through that. Let's, let's see how the different responses that you can give, and that kind of thing I also work with. You know, my fame, my favorite expression, is the cool aunt or uncle, maybe the parents, not supportive, right? But there's somebody in that child's life who really wants to be and when it's not your child, that makes it a little bit more complicated. So people have questions about what's appropriate, what's not. How can I let this child know that they're not alone, that I've got their back and that they'll get through this?

Casey O'Roarty 23:17
Yeah, well, thank goodness for those people too, right?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 23:21
I know, right? I just, I just want to give them a hug. It's amazing. I mean, research demonstrates it time and time again that sometimes it just takes one caring person in that child's life to change their entire trajectory. For

Casey O'Roarty 23:34
sure, for sure, I do work with with parents and teachers, and one of the activities that we do is I invite them to think about somebody in their life growing up that let them know that they mattered deeply to them, exactly, you know. And the whole premise is that's all it takes. I mean, that's all it takes is that one person that lets you know that you matter deeply to them. I mean, it doesn't make everything unicorns and rainbows, but, you know, it brings hope when things feel overwhelming and hopeless, right? Yeah. So what about the what about the rest of the community? So there's the kids who are going through the process of identifying who they are and recognizing that it's not necessarily mainstream. Is there a better word for that.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 24:21
No, okay, honestly, I usually leave it up to the child. Okay, I leave it up to the child to say, how do you what? How does this feel for you? I don't want to label their experience, but yeah, right, the general conversation out of the mainstream is fine.

Casey O'Roarty 24:35
Okay, perfect. And then there's the families surrounding those kids, and then there's the rest of the community. So what are so I'd love to talk about about the rest of us, right? What are the most important things? You know, if not the most important thing, what's something for all of us to remember about kids in our community who we may or may not have a personal connection to? Know who are coming out? Yeah,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 25:01
yeah. That's, that's a really good question, because it's, you never know when you're going to have that opportunity to be there and know what I what I stress to people, is modeling behavior. I mean, as parents, I think we're conditioned to that, teachers, people and authority, but it's really modeling. So if you hear somebody say something that's inappropriate, address it and make sure that when you're talking about you know you eventually you'll grow up and marry somebody, or are you dating anyone, don't assume the gender of their partner, right? And just, and just kind of being very cognizant and aware of when you're looking at the world through that heteronormal lens, right?

Casey O'Roarty 25:40
Don't be an asshole. Basically, I think that that's the rule, that if all of us follow that rule, then, you know, our communities will all be better.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 25:50
Don't be that one, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 26:00
Well, and bullying. So you mentioned bullying a little bit ago, but bullying comes to mind in this conversation, and how kids who are perceived as different are often targets right at risk, was the words that you use. So how do you coach kids around being who they are when they know that they're different from everyone else? Like, how do we help them, you know, and and be in celebration of who they are, while also keeping in mind the, you know, some realities that exist out in the world, and there's a level of safety that we want them to always keep in mind, especially when things get so gross in middle and high school, when and it's like, you know that adolescent period where discomfort is so uncomfortable for kids that they tend to veer towards, well, I'm uncomfortable, but I can make you more uncomfortable

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 26:52
Exactly, exactly. And if they're paying attention to you, they're not paying attention to me exactly. Yeah. And actually, that's a that's a really good point, because middle school can be even more difficult for for the queer kids than elementary school or high school. There's something about that intro to adolescence age that they can be really vicious So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's something that every parent should talk to their kid about, especially their LGBTQ kids, even if they're not out, if they're perceived to be presenting as a different gender or perceived to be gay, just find your support network. Just just find find your community, and stay safe and be very aware of where you are the kids that I've talked to as adults, looking back, they do realize that they developed early on, a very keen sense of safety, and when they were safe to be out and when they weren't. And honestly, that's one of the one of the questions that parents should always be asking their children who come out is, are you out everywhere, like are you just out at home? Are you out in school? Because a child may choose to kind of compartmentalize their their coming out process and want to be treated differently and in public than they are at home? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 28:13
well, and I, you know, even as I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking about, there's a variety of ways that kids present themselves right, whether it's, you know, the LGBTQ way, or just kind of that spastic human, or, you know, whatever that personality is that shows up, you know, and I'm hearing like the safety conversation and being aware and finding your community and finding your people. I mean, really, we should be having conversations around this with all of our kids,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 28:47
absolutely, absolutely. And I think parents are can be the best advocates. Yeah, standing up for their kids. But again, it goes back to what, what does the kid feel like that they need? Because, I mean, it's, it's very easy to trigger that, that protective instinct to protect your child if they're being bullied in school, but understanding is that going to put them at greater risk, and are they ready for that? And and just making sure that that's an open conversation about, how do we approach this together? Right? Not, not. Okay.

Casey O'Roarty 29:20
Let me save you.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 29:20
Exactly. Let me save you, yes, yes, right? Not on my watch. Not happening today, right? Yeah, just really making sure that we're very cognizant it's all about them. It's all about what they want and what they need.

Casey O'Roarty 29:32
Well. And I think I know something that is helpful at our house is we often well with my one of my kids, he will role play with me. He'll practice like, if he has to have a card conversation, or he has to deal with a tricky situation, like, well, let's practice. Let's practice that we call them outs or that one liner that's going to get you out of that situation, because they also want to be able to save face, you know? We can tell them till we're blue, like, oh, just walk away, you know. But it doesn't. And it play out that way. There's other factors that come into mind to that young child, or that, you know, early adolescent child, and so, you know, we we do a lot of, let's practice, let's role play it, you know. And even things like hard conversations with the teacher, you know, well, what might she say? Well, she's gonna say this. Well, she might not, you know. So let's play a couple different scenarios and help you stay true to what's important to you. And I always want to be having conversations with my kids and my friend. I'm sure you know, you must know Amy Lang, oh yes, yes. Love her, and she likes to say short and frequent conversations, right? Whether it's around sex or drugs or staying safe in the world, and as their perspective grows around the diversity and the kids around them, whether it's, you know, cultural diversity or sexual orientation or gender or Whatever, what would you say are some powerful talking points for parents? Like, if I want to, and I do have conversations with my kids, but for anybody that's listening, who's thinking, like, I really want to make an intentional effort to have some conversations with my kids, what are some good talking points that you would say for a place for parents to start? One

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 31:21
thing that I found to be really effective is kind of taking a step back and saying, Well, why? Why would that matter? So if a child says something about, oh, I think my teacher's gay, like, Well, why would that matter? And then really talking through, what is it? What does that word mean to you? Because a lot of times we all know kids are learning the power language and learning about, you know, if I say this, I get this response and really kind of patiently having a conversation with them about, what does this mean to you? And, yeah, I'm all about short, frequent teachable moments, right, right? And

Casey O'Roarty 31:53
what about when it's not, like, organically coming up on the end of the like, I mean, you know, Seattle is so beautiful and diverse. And there's, I mean, I was just there today on Capitol Hill, and, holy cow, there's all different kinds of people wandering around. It's just beautiful. And you know, that's not necessarily the experience that my kids are having, because we live out in the country. And while there's definitely diversity, you had to look a little bit deeper than you do on Capitol Hill. So how do we, you know, if it's not something that they're seeing in their world, how do we make sure to have the conversation like, how? How do we broach the conversation?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 32:33
Well, one of the things that I found to be really effective is so I use Caitlyn Jenner as as an example. So when that was all over the news, using that as an opportunity to say, well, let's, let's talk about gender. Let's talk about gender roles, especially when kids do something like start to really ingrain gender based stereotypes, like making an assumption of what somebody can or can't do because of their gender, because their presentation, and just taking them through, why? How did, how did they come to that assessment, and finding out their perspective, like, which lens are they looking through?

Casey O'Roarty 33:11
Yeah, it's funny. My son said, not too long ago, he's like, You know what, Mom, it's not really fair that boys have to dress like boys, but girls can dress like boys, or they can dress like girls. I was like, well,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 33:25
perfect example, right? Because you actually can, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 33:28
I said, Nobody, that's not law, yeah, you know, you can wear whatever you want. He was like, Well, I'm good, but it's just interesting,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 33:38
yeah, see, and I would not be able to leave that alone, because I would have to follow up with, well, why do you think that it would be bad for you to dress as a girl, but it's them to dress as boys? Yeah? Because that, that can really be telling for

Casey O'Roarty 33:49
sure, for sure. And what a rich discussion you know exactly, exactly,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 33:53
growing up, growing up with the experience that your gender is somebody else's insult can be really powerful conversation to have, yeah, at the right age, right around 10 or 12, right?

Casey O'Roarty 34:03
And that's where he's at. So how can we promote advocacy and being allies to these, to families that are loving their LGBTQ kids and family members? I mean, you know, how can we, what are some what are some places that we can go, that listeners can go, to become more educated and allies it.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 34:25
So I'm actually going to answer your question from a couple different angles. So it can be really tricky. It's a hot topic, like politics. It can be really tricky to go into a family member's home where they have a child who's out, and you want to stand up and defend that child, and it's just going to make you feel so good to to have this huge, heated discussion at the dinner table and make your point, and at the end of the day, you're not going to change that parent's mind. And in reality, you might be setting that child up for an unsafe environment when you leave. You've and so yeah, just kind of picking your battles and finding out exactly which direction you should go. And no one just take a step back and just kind of give them a little head nod, saying to get your back. Yeah. So back to your other question, resources. So there are some really good resources out there. PFLAG is a great organization, parents and friends of lesbian and gays. They are also heavily involved with the transgender community and different expressions of gender. Okay, you can also check out my web page.

Casey O'Roarty 35:32
Yes, I will have links to it in my show notes. Yes,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 35:36
my kid came out.com I post articles out there on talking to your kids about sexual orientation and kind of managing yourself through the process of coming out. And it's like I said, it's really tailored towards parents, but also caring adults, coaches, teachers, anybody who's in that unique perspective of having access to a child that is in desperate need of support, and they're really not sure where to

Casey O'Roarty 36:04
start. Yeah, well, and you know what came to mind, too, when you were talking about being in a family member's home where maybe the parents aren't super supportive, it's amazing how powerful our model of behavior can become, right? Just in the way that we interact and connect with a child speaks volumes. Versus, hey, listen, you should be supporting your child. You should be blah blah blah blah blah blah, right, just showing up and being in support and in a loving, you know, kind healthy relationship with the child. So I love that you're including, you know, the cool aunt and uncle and the coaches and the teachers, and that there's a lot of people you know, there's a lot, as hurtful as it can feel, I'm sure, as a child, not having the acceptance of your parents, it's heartening you know, to know that there are other people within that community of you know, with on the team, right? Because every child on the team who is going to be supportive, yeah.

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 37:07
And I think it's, it all comes back to that, and it's, um, especially for those adults who are in non parenting roles. Um, right. It's what you're modeling, excuse me, what you're saying is not just for the kids who are out, but also for the kids who aren't out. So when you're teaching your you know, eight to 10 year old soccer team, and you've got a bunch of kids running around, and one of them is, is openly gay, there might be others. And so how you interact with that child? Other Other ones are watching you, for sure, and that's gonna really resonate for sure in life. Yeah? So safe and visible ally. Oh, yeah, I like that. My battle cry, safe

Casey O'Roarty 37:47
and visible allies unite. So finally, I have one last question. What does joyful courage mean to you? Do? You know that's the name of my business, yes, yes, yes. We've only just become acquainted. So,

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 38:03
no, I love that, because for me, it's not just courage about, you know, standing up in bravery and babble and that kind of thing, but also that, that joyful embrace of this is messy and this is going to be challenging, and it's okay, like, especially, you know, working with kids, because they don't come with an instruction book. And, you know, they will, I love to call it a plot twist. They'll throw you a plot twist when you're not expecting it. Yeah. And so to me, that's, that's what it means. This is just like joyfully embracing the chaos and and heading into it.

Casey O'Roarty 38:37
Awesome. Jen, thank you so much for coming on the show, being part of the podcast. Thank you so much. Casey, will you do me a favor and send over a couple of your favorite blog posts? Absolutely, and I will be sure to link them in the show notes, as well as your website and the pay flag site and any other resources that come to mind after we hang up that you think would be helpful for parents, for all of us, please send them my way. Perfect. I

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 39:06
will. Can I pitch my Can I pitch my workshop coming up? Pitch it so I have a workshop coming up on March 24, seven, 8:30pm, over in Eastside in Redmond, and it is open up to parents and other caring adults come in, ask your questions 90 minutes, and we will, we will talk through whatever it is that's on your mind.

Casey O'Roarty 39:27
Great. What's the name of the workshop?

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 39:30
Interactive workshop, so your kid came out. Now, what? Okay,

Casey O'Roarty 39:32
and I will do, I'm sure that you have, like, an event page or some kind of link that you can send to me, and I'll make sure again. Well, what day is it today? Well, I guess you just decided for me that this show will come out next week. No pressure, no pressure at all. Send me a link with more information to that absolutely will. Thank

Dr. Jen O’Ryan 39:51
you so much. Casey, yes, thank

Casey O'Roarty 39:53
you. Have a great day. You, too. You.

Oh, what a great conversation. I hope that you found value in that Convo. I'm so grateful that there are people like Jenna Ryan out in the world doing their work and supporting all different kinds of families. So, so, so great. So my friends, Show is over before you go, like I mentioned on our last podcast, I have a special special offer for my podcast listeners, and that is the two week common connected parenting program through Maslow can be yours for free, you just gotta send me an email. So email me at Casey, at joyful courage.com. I have a coupon code for a limited time, a coupon code that will get you access to the program and to coaching with me for free. How awesome. And you know also, what I like to say at the end of the show is, if you have not already joined the live and love with joyful courage Facebook group, come on over. Ask to join. I will accept you, and you can be a part of the conversations that are happening over there and the support I'm really working on growing the group, because with more parents, more like minded parents, is more amazing wisdom that comes to the surface in celebration of each other and also supporting the challenges that show up on this crazy ass parenting journey. So join us over there, and as always, I love feedback. You can if you're listening through the website, you can leave a comment on the podcast episode page, or you can go to iTunes and tell me how much you love the show. That's what I want to hear people how much you love the show. All right, so have a beautiful day. It is currently sunny in western Washington, hoping it's sunny where you are, and I will be back with another podcast soon. Have a beautiful day, my friends. Bye.

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