Transcription
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Hey, welcome to the Joyful Courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work, people. And when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact.
[00:00:27] My name is Kasey Aroidi. I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach, and the adolescent lead at Sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting.
[00:00:47] This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent, and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt. That what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget, sharing truly is caring. If you loved today's show, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials or text it to your friends.
[00:01:13] Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:26] Okay everybody, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here and I'm so excited to introduce you to this week's guest. Will Kersopp is joining me today all the way from Australia, which is very exciting. Will is an education leader and the founder of Many Roads. A coaching business dedicated to helping teenagers discover their purpose and thrive.
[00:01:50] With a background spanning business, education, and psychology, Will saw a gap in how young people are supported in discovering their unique path. His coaching blends evidence based methodologies Behavioral and Cognitive Psychology, Appreciative Inquiry, and Real World Strategy to help teens build confidence and direction for their future.
[00:02:11] Will has worked with teens from a dozen countries across a broad spectrum, from neurodiverse students to top performers competing on the world stage. Will has held general manager and chief commercial officer roles in startups. holds a commerce degree from the University of Sydney and a psychology degree from Swinburne University, where he graduated with a 4.
[00:02:33] 0 GPA. Well done, Will, and came first place in half of his subjects. He has also completed executive education at UC Berkeley, an avid surfer, meditator, and lifelong learner. He is passionate about leveraging his professional and life experiences to help students navigate purpose, career planning, and well.
[00:02:54] being. Hi, Will, welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:56] Will Kirsop: Hey, Casey, glad to be here.
[00:02:59] Casey O'Roarty: First of all, thank you on behalf of all of us. Thank you for being someone who is diving in head first with our teenagers because we're all on the lookout for helpers. It is a wild season of parenting for us parents and knowing that there's people like you in the world is really Yay.
[00:03:20] How did you find yourself working with teenagers? What was, you saw the gap, I read about that in your bio, but what was really the drive for working with teens?
[00:03:28] Will Kirsop: Sure, and thanks so much. And actually, first I'd just like to start by saying a huge thanks to all the parents and guardians and educators and just everyone tuning in, really.
[00:03:37] Um, one thing that I'm always just so amazed by and inspired by is the dedication and commitment Sony parents have. So, it's just incredible to see the lengths that you guys go to, and it's such an honor and a privilege to collaborate with so many amazing families. So, really excited to be here, Casey.
[00:03:53] Casey O'Roarty: Yay.
[00:03:53] Will Kirsop: From my perspective of how I arrived here, it's all probably really rooted, I would say, in human flourishing. So for me, I've always been interested in what I refer to as the project of having good life. And for me, that's a life of meaning and a life of fulfillment. And probably, identified with the Socratic ideal of the unexamined life is not worth living.
[00:04:16] And so I've always thought you know, why do some people thrive, while some people lack, you know, direction and purpose. And that's led me to put quite a lot of time and effort in finding and cultivating a life. That's really rich for me. And my mom actually always says it's, about living your one true life.
[00:04:32] So that's something that's personally been very important to me from, I guess, more of a work standpoint. I've been really fortunate to work in domains that have always been involved in helping people grow and empowerment and inspiration. So whether that's been nonprofit education, technology, college counseling, and even my studies in psychology, and particularly through my work in education.
[00:04:53] Was able to collaborate with a number of different parties. So whether it be parents, schools, industry, government. And that really gave me, I guess, a lot of insights first hand into some of the challenges that teenagers face. Whether it be things like career planning or device dependence or executive function.
[00:05:11] And then just probably at a much deeper level of how difficult it is to navigate the trials and tribulations of adolescence. So that's what led me to build, and create Many Roads. And then on a personal level, this works also really close to my heart. Um, someone very close to me had difficult adolescence, you know, they had a number of neurodevelopmental challenges, things like ADHD, dyslexia, very compromised executive function.
[00:05:35] And I really just saw firsthand, I guess, the difficulty of if you like, don't quite fit that mold. And conversely, what it is like if, you do have someone in your corner supporting you and making you feel seen and understood. So that's really the heart of what I do. And has led me to work with teens, helping them discover purpose, focus on wellbeing, understand their strengths, and ultimately work towards designing a life that they're genuinely excited by.
[00:05:59] Casey O'Roarty: Mm. I love that. And I love that your business is called Many Roads because I know in my personal experience. There was a very peak moment for me in my parenting where I realized one, Oh, I am actually holding a narrative for my kid that I didn't realize I was holding. It was just kind of an unseen expectation of how things were going to look.
[00:06:24] And then when things didn't look that way, and in fact looked very different, I had to really kind of come to terms with that and decide, Am I going to be in resistance? to my kiddo going sideways here? Am I gonna, like, try to force them into this traditional path that, you know, some kids are more easygoing and so they just kind of follow along, whereas others not so much?
[00:06:51] Or am I gonna support her in doing what she needs to do and let go of how it looks? And so when I think many roads, to me that's really a testament to that gift that we can give our teenagers when We let go of thinking that things need to look a certain way, especially today because the traditional model of my generation and my parents generation, it's been blown open and it's just not the same world and the world doesn't have the same.
[00:07:22] I mean, I feel like the expectations and the skill set, there's some core pieces and we're going to talk about purpose but I feel like there's so much more to consider with the cohort that's moving through adolescence and young adulthood right now. So I just really appreciate your. The name of your business.
[00:07:39] Many.
[00:07:39] Will Kirsop: No. And I actually want to highlight a couple of things there because firstly, you use the word gift. And I think that that's like really at the core of the thesis of many roads. And what I just personally believe in is that everyone has their own unique gift. And it's actually about helping. Get that out of them and then like bring that into the world and it's almost like it's a new form of life in its own sense.
[00:08:00] So that's something that, you know, is deeply important to, to this work. And the second bit around those, you know, traditional, what I call like ladders of success, they just, They're not what they used to be and typical things like graduating from college and getting on, you know, the, the graduate ladder and promotions and all of those different things.
[00:08:19] There's just so much more opacity in the world of work and navigating those spaces than they ever were before. And for teens, I just think we have to be so compassionate and, you know, two examples of this is. In 2021, the British Council said that, you know, 65 percent of the jobs teenagers are going to work in the future don't already exist.
[00:08:39] I mean, it's hard enough being a teenager, right? And then hearing, well, I'm learning all these things in school, I'm not sure why, I'm not sure where I'm going to go. How am I going to figure myself out? It's a stage where they're thinking about their identity, their future, their hopes and their dreams. And I mean, those years have always been marked by complexity.
[00:08:55] And I think we can all reflect on our own teenage years. It's probably not the easiest ride and there's a cocktail of different things that are going on neurologically, hormonally, socially, emotionally, all those different things. So yeah, it is just those traditional pathways are changing and externally, those other metrics of success that teenagers are seeing around social media and things are also very different as well.
[00:09:16] So for me, you know, bringing it back to many roads, there's just, there is no one path and it's really about helping. Look inside and understand what that gift is. Those, those spikes, those skills, those strengths, those interests, and, and helping bring those into the world.
[00:09:29] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, you have a background in psychology, but you don't do clinical work.
[00:09:34] You're a coach, right? Can you talk a little bit about the difference between? Because I know I actually have a lot of clients with kids who are struggling. with anxiety or depression or, you know, those psychological things, cages that can happen and can stall kids out, teens out and kids oftentimes, or at least in my cohort of clients, their kids are really resistant to therapy.
[00:10:03] And I try to kind of describe, I feel like there's you, there's others who are out there doing coaching. with teenagers, and I don't know that parents really understand the difference. So how would you describe the difference between, you know, sending your kids to a psychiatrist, or a psychologist, I guess, or a counselor, a therapist, versus a coach like you?
[00:10:22] Will Kirsop: Yeah, it's a really good question and from the outset, I just want to say like therapy is really, really important. Oh yeah, we're big
[00:10:29] Casey O'Roarty: supporters of
[00:10:29] Will Kirsop: therapy over here. Yeah, I just completely advocate and support anyone who needs it or just anyone really being in therapy and having that experience.
[00:10:37] And actually one of the amazing things about my work is I actually get to collaborate with geographies that I work in. And I would also just add to that, Casey, is that sometimes I actually have provisos. needing teens to be in therapy to take on the work, or even just saying, Hey, this isn't right for us right now, because it is super important because therapists, so whether it's, you know, a psychologist, a psychiatrist who can also prescribe medication, counselor, they are tending to mental health challenges, typically, and also doing deep work, reflecting on the past, and looking at the wires and particularly looking backward and understanding like different experiences.
[00:11:11] So those things are absolutely really valuable. A coach is someone who's focused maybe a little bit more on strengths and is a little bit more forward looking. And so for me, I actually had originally intentions of working towards a clinical psychology certification. The thing that I actually, and I was working with teenagers at the time, and what came to me personally is just, not only did I love working with teenagers and young adults, but for me, I'm in a space where when I'm helping people grow and work on empowerment and inspiration, that's where I thrive the most.
[00:11:42] And that's where I can give more. So that's why I made a little bit more of a conscious choice to do that. So that's enabled me to work with teenagers on a much more forward looking projection. And really at the core of some of the work I do, I talk about Viktor Frankl and Logotherapy. So finding meaning and, and really the crux of this is how do we cultivate lives that are meaningful, that are fulfilling and thinking about what that looks like into the future.
[00:12:04] So that's the difference. And again, I just, therapy is great and I love also collaborating with teens who are both in therapy and getting coaching. That works as well.
[00:12:13] Casey O'Roarty: It reminds me of, I remember when I was pregnant and deciding between the Western Obstetrician model, or midwifery and one of the things that was really key for me meeting a midwife and having her say, Hey, listen, if you need to go to the hospital, I'm not going to work to keep you here.
[00:12:32] I'm going to be assessing what you need, and then we're going to go forward with what you need. And what I heard you just say is you're not going to work with a kid and ignore. the indicators that this is a kid that really needs a different kind of work, therapy, psychology, all that stuff. So, you know, I wonder, if you kind of are someone who's an easier Yes, for kids to say, fine, okay, I'll work with this coach and then you build a relationship with a kiddo and you're the one that says, hey, listen, here's what I'm saying and here's what is actually going to benefit you.
[00:13:08] I wonder if that's going to shift perhaps something in them that maybe that was holding them back when their parents were saying, hey, let's go find a therapist or a counselor. Have you found anything like that?
[00:13:20] Will Kirsop: Yeah, absolutely. A couple of things are running through my mind there. I think one of the things I hear most from parents is they go, Oh, it's just so nice to have someone else saying what we're saying.
[00:13:30] But obviously there's just a bit of a different tone and different manner and a different resonance. And I guess A different
[00:13:36] Casey O'Roarty: generation. I mean, come on, Will. You could probably be my kid.
[00:13:39] Will Kirsop: I think the fun thing about my work is I'm actually sort of this bridge almost because I'm Somewhere between the, often somewhere between the parent's age and the teen's age.
[00:13:49] So I have this like really fun relationship where I can, you know, spend time with a teen. And then a huge part of my work is actually connected with parents and embedding the program and providing, insight. And that's a really rewarding part. When I do think, though, of The way that and the modality that I work and we'll get into this in a moment is that for teenagers, sometimes I think that, like, it can be helpful for them in the way in my, in the way that I work as a coach, in that we use appreciative inquiry from the get go.
[00:14:14] So we're starting to think about things like skills and strengths and interests and passions. And so it very much starts from this, you know, positive or humanistic psychology standpoint where we're thinking about those things that really already resonate with the teen, rather than maybe diving in at the other side of things where you're focused immediately on a challenge or a blocker.
[00:14:35] So I think it helps get trust and build a rapport with them. And then we're able to take some of those things forward and we've got behavioral things that we're tending to. And one of the, in case you had also. Maybe mention is that there's probably a lot of what I would refer to as like subclinical Conditions and challenges that a lot of teenagers face.
[00:14:54] So one thing is device dependence and gaming as an example I think almost every parent even parents of very serious. I love it Hey, can you help me with this? So, there are these things that, you know, maybe don't necessarily fall in the lap of, a traditional therapist, that they may, but they're not necessarily clinically, like if we look at, you know, the DSM, that they may not fall in there.
[00:15:15] So this is another avenue where we can interlay some of those challenges and help build positive habits around. Things like, whether it's device dependence or maybe that mild levels of anxiety. And then when I, talk with the neurodiverse population, it is typically the three A's. So autism, ADHD and anxiety.
[00:15:33] Some of those things are clinical and sometimes they absolutely are in therapy or certainly need to be. Getting that support, but it's about thinking about this from a pedagogical standpoint in terms of education and thinking about purpose and passions and those types of
[00:15:55] Casey O'Roarty: things. I'm really excited about the process that you use when you work with teens. And I think there's a lot of nuggets that I really want to draw forth from you in this conversation. One, so parents can play with them. You know, in their own home environment, but also so people can become familiar with you and your work.
[00:16:12] So you use a process called life crafting with the clients that you work with. So talk a little bit about that and the four stages, right? There's four stages of life crafting this, by the way, listeners, we could all use some life crafting. So I'm really excited about digging into this with you. Well, so what are the four
[00:16:29] Will Kirsop: stages?
[00:16:30] Sure. And I think it is just to your point, Casey, like anyone can use it. It's not just about teenagers. Like we can all use it as adults and there's different stages. I think it's even probably quite applicable for people who are maybe retiring as well and starting to think about what's life like after work.
[00:16:46] And building on Casey, just what you said as well, the thing that I love about this is anyone can use it. So parents, you can adopt this and you can think about it in your own ways. It was derivative of some of the work of Richard Bryan and Edward Deasy from self determination theory and Sheldon's self concordant goals.
[00:17:02] So they, I guess, laid the foundation from, I guess, a research standpoint around, intrinsic motivation. In terms of how this life crafting framework can be developed, I typically do tend to refer to it as four stages. Technically, there are seven, but in the work that I do, I cluster it as one and some of the literature as well.
[00:17:20] They also talk about it in four, but it was developed by Michaela Schippers and Nicholas Ziegler out of the University of Rotterdam. Stage one is values and passions discovery, but also, and I guess stages two, three and four, but if we cluster it into one, thinking around competence. And that's what I guess, again, ladders up to some of the self determination theory things.
[00:17:39] I'm talking about career planning and talking about social life as well. And some of the techniques that I use there are. You know, some of the appreciative inquiry. So we think about some of the guiding lessons, in terms of looking at strengths and skills and spikes. Secondly, thinking about an ideal future life.
[00:17:55] And that's something that I think is really powerful and really important for a teenager. And yeah, we can probably put a sidebar on that and maybe talk about that a little bit more. Definitely. Thirdly is goal setting and thinking forward. That's after we've designed what we think of an ideal future life.
[00:18:10] And the cool thing about it is there is that that's where we have what I might refer to as if slash them plans because you may not work towards achieving your goal from the outset. So how do we work a pathway there? What's the plan B? And the 4th stage is a public commitment to the goal. So. This actually brings me on to Robert Cialdini's work with influence that he wrote about 20 years ago, and he talks about commitment.
[00:18:31] And he uses an example of the studies that show that people who were trying to give up smoking cigarettes, when they would actually commit to doing that, so they might write it down on a note and hand it to their boss, that's made it stick, and it was made it more likely to commit to the achievement of their goal.
[00:18:46] So one of the fun things about my work is, in the last session I have mum, dad, guardian actually join the call and we have the teenager actually present back what they've, developed in terms of their plan through the life crafting framework.
[00:18:58] Casey O'Roarty: I love that. Well, I want to kind of move through each one and starting with that for that first one where you're exploring values and passions.
[00:19:07] And I love the phrase appreciative inquiry, appreciative inquiry. So is that really just exploring, exploring what's going well, exploring, like you said, strengths, highlights. That's what we're talking about with that. And I'm thinking about how often do you get kiddos? I don't know if it's reluctance, I think sometimes adults get worried when kids don't have a lot of expressive language, like, oh, my values are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, I mean, there's temperamentally, you know, there's kids who love to talk and kids who are more closed off. How do you work with kids that might be on that end of like, I don't know what my values are. I don't know what my passions are. How do you warm them up to that exploration?
[00:20:06] Will Kirsop: That's a great question, and just touching quickly on the expressive language. One thing I observe in my practice is adults, when I work with young adults the command of language is so much stronger from an expressive standpoint. I'll use an example. I had someone in their 20s and they said they had a quote unquote light bulb moment and this was actually on our first call together, right?
[00:20:27] So that is not language that I've heard a teenager use and I've worked with a number of teenagers who are very, bright from an academic standpoint and those kind of things. I think that that's definitely a valid point. And touching maybe on the point around just teenagers who may be a bit more shy, a bit more reserved, or who For whatever reason coming into may not be as open.
[00:20:49] I think, again, it goes probably back to the framework and these guided exercises and the appreciative inquiry is that intuitively, there's two things. Intuitively, teenagers actually really know that they want to figure themselves out. Like, they know that they're doing this work because we're helping them think about an exciting future.
[00:21:06] Like, that's fun, that's engaging. We all really want that, by and large. Excluding maybe some clinical side of things, but that's, so intuitively there is an understanding of the use and the importance of the conversations that we're having. On the other side of things, when we actually start doing the work, it's starting to think reflectively.
[00:21:24] And so we'll go through some guided exercises of, hey, would this word or that word relate to you more and why? And we start having different conversations and it may be, it could be any example. It could be creative versus analytical. And we'll just start playing with and toying with and having those discussions.
[00:21:39] When we move into the appreciative inquiry side of things, that's where we have some quite short, reflective writing exercises that we'll work through. So, talk about a time when you overcame a challenge. Talk about a time when,you achieved a goal.. And generally, there's an opportunity for a teenager there to put something down that they're kind of proud of, they're pleased with, they're excited about, and that can then generally form the genesis for a conversation.
[00:22:02] Casey O'Roarty: So as you're moving through these, cause I think there's something here that parents, I want you all to be listening for. My guess is as they go through these exercises, as they're speaking into their experiences, you're listening. For what they value. So it's not necessarily they're like, well, I value, you know, hard work and stick to it.
[00:22:24] If it is no, they're telling a story and you're hearing that, right? So listeners, parents, we can be doing the same. Like, Oh, wow. That's wild that that happened with your friends. And I hear that it's really important to you that much. You guys are transparent and honest with each other, like seems like that's something you really value.
[00:22:42] So
[00:22:43] Will Kirsop: yeah, absolutely. And I think they're almost like talking themselves into existence is how I think about it a little bit. And it's definitely more subtle and nuanced than, you know, what, what do you value? Why do you value honesty? So you might talk about role models and what's really amazing is so many kids put mom or dad there.
[00:23:00] So cool. Anyway, then we'll say, what do you like about them or what you admire about them? Right. And that is a value. It might be. Hard work. It might be kindness. It might.
[00:23:12] And so that's providing a bit of an insight and we can build from them. Just one thing I'd also like to say for parents and something that I find works really well when there is a real blocker and, they're not opening up is I always use the, I call it the best friend trick. And so I'll ask them to say, well, how do you think your best friend would answer this question for you?
[00:23:31] And immediately a light bulb goes off and they can think about it generally. And if that still doesn't happen. I actually just asked them to talk about their best friend because by and large, you know, our friends are significant people in our life and what we like about them indicates our interests, our values, our passions, or things that we either like in ourselves or want to cultivate in ourselves.
[00:23:51] So I think that that can be really illuminating from a standpoint of just trying to build that dialogue and open up a little bit.
[00:23:59] Casey O'Roarty: And do you find that the kids you work with can speak into that visualization of an ideal life or do you also use exercises to kind of get them there? And I ask this because I'm thinking about my daughter who's been on the podcasts and I have permission to share.
[00:24:15] But one of the things that she talks about, especially when, you know, like 16, 17, when things were really, I mean, she needed a therapist, not a coach for sure. And the idea of a future was. Like, I would say things like, you design your life. Like, that was my mantra. Like, everybody gets to design their life.
[00:24:36] And after, when we started doing some therapy together, it came to the surface that that was not useful. Like, my empowering mantra. was not useful. It felt heavy and it felt scary. So, you know, and I see the gift and, you know, I think for all of us to visualize that ideal life and to really like broad strokes and fine details and all of it.
[00:25:04] Do you ever find that teenagers have a hard time with that? Like there's too much to choose or if they're going through stuff that just feels Like they're never going to make it to an, you know, quote, ideal life.
[00:25:15] Will Kirsop: Yeah. So it's definitely a valid point. And I think the thing is every case or every team's unique, so it's hard to provide a really broad brush for all of this, but a couple of things that I would say is like your daughter's case is an example, Casey, like those things definitely do occur.
[00:25:31] And some of the work that I then. Default to is Dr. David Yeager recently in 10 to 25 talks, for instance, about status and respect. So, of course, for like a 15 year old, thinking about being 25, in a career, working, that's not what we're trying to optimize for here. What we're trying to think about is what are they doing on a moment to moment or a day to day basis that's important to them.
[00:25:55] That they can feel a sense of self efficacy, that they're generating that status. They're generating that respect amongst peers, amongst people that are important and value to them. So it's not this like super future looking, but it's trying to help them understand where we're at at the moment, what's driving them, what's motivating them, and then moving them forward.
[00:26:15] And I think that purpose can be this really big word, right? And. The kind of the clinical or the literature definition around, you know, I guess it's about personal meaning and about goal setting and doing something else beyond the word, the, for the world. But I actually have this bowling ball analogy that I, that I might talk about here is, is how I really try and think about it is imagine like we're all a bowling alley, right?
[00:26:37] Like Casey, you're there as maybe a parent coach. I'm there as a team coach, like the family's there. So like mom, dad, guardian, the teenager, everyone around them, their teachers, and. What we're trying to do here in this work is we're trying to help them Select that first ball at the bowling alley that they want to bowl And we might have conversation around that and we might find the ball and they might pick a really really big ball because they're bold And ambitious so they might pick a ball because it's got a certain color and that really resonates with them But once they have picked that ball, it's our job to stand behind them and rally behind them and cheer them to get a strike.
[00:27:14] Right. And sometimes you mean,
[00:27:17] Casey O'Roarty: We're not supposed to be like that ball's way too big.
[00:27:19] Will Kirsop: What are you doing?
[00:27:21] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Or it's silly to choose by color, right? Like I can hear like, there's so many ways we dismiss, right? This is a great analogy.
[00:27:28] Will Kirsop: Yeah. 100%. And when the ball's too big, we might gently gone roll in the bowling stand that, you know, maybe the eight year old needs or the six year old so they can use it.
[00:27:36] And we might say, Hey, well if you're starting off with, this moonshot dream, let's get that. Or yeah, we may say, Hey, can we put up the guardrails, right? Mm-hmm . So that the ball doesn't go with the gutters. So we have a couple of tricks up our sleeve, I think, but ultimately we really want to be rallying behind them.
[00:27:51] And then it gets to the point where that ball really works for them. Or we have, we go and find another ball, or they grow into another ball. Mm-hmm . And that's what, and, and, you know, habits and interests and all these different things they can change and teenagers are going through so much. I really like thinking about it in that way because it's definitely our job to get them to the point of selecting the ball and having those conversations and really arriving.
[00:28:13] But it's not just about focusing on this destination and it's focusing on, I guess this moment and helping them at that point in their journey.
[00:28:29] Casey O'Roarty: I love that. And then, you know, moving from there into goal setting. So I love goal setting. I love goal setting, I love lists, I make my lists with a little box that I can cross when I check things off. And it's funny, you know, even my husband, I'll be like, let's set some goals for the week.
[00:28:49] And he immediately says, I'm good. Like I don't need that. And probably, you know, when I lift up and out the last thing he wants is me on his back being like, how's that goal coming along? You reaching your goal. Remember what you said you were going to do? Are you doing that? How's it going? Which is annoying and something I'm working on but personal responsibility is a value of mine and so it makes sense that I get a little overzealous around it and I wonder too and I recognize well that you and listeners that there are kids out there who are like Yeah, I can visualize my ideal life Yes.
[00:29:27] I am so excited about goal setting. I'm going to declare it from the rooftops. I know those kids exist, but I really want to kind of slog through the rest of the kids. Right. And I'm guessing that you find kids that, you know, recognize, Oh, wow. If I say I want this, then I have to do the things
[00:29:45] to get it. And do I really want to be held accountable to doing those things? Teenagers are smart. Like they get the big picture, and if it, obviously, if it feels like a trap, they're, peacing out. How do you encourage goal setting and personal responsibility with your clients as something that's
[00:30:03] like, exciting..
[00:30:05] Yeah.
[00:30:05] Will Kirsop: And I think that's the brilliant thing about this framework, right? And is that thinking about the values and the passions and everything that comes in that, that original cluster is, is one of the first things that we really focus on. And then secondly, thinking about that ideal future life. So that work gets done and I work on that before we even get to goal setting.
[00:30:25] And so Casey, how that. really manifest, I guess. You're greasing
[00:30:29] Casey O'Roarty: the wheel. You've greased
[00:30:30] Will Kirsop: the
[00:30:30] Casey O'Roarty: wheel by the time. That makes sense. It's layered.
[00:30:33] Will Kirsop: In the sense that, fortunately, when we have a discussion around like an ideal future life and, you know, if we talk about a normative goal, let's say, whether it's something around having a family or, a certain career or buying a property.
[00:30:49] And interestingly, and just to sidebar, a number of teens actually really identify with those things, which is really cool. In that. We then have a discussion of like, well, what's going to happen if you do for everything you did yesterday, everything you did today, everything you're going to do tomorrow.
[00:31:01] What if that propagates forward for the week, a month, a year, even longer? Where's that going to lead you? Versus, okay, you actually have this, ideal life that you want to develop and work towards. What's actually required to get to that point. So generally there's a bit of a delta and when we are able to look at that delta and have a discussion around it, the goal setting almost serves as a bridge from that moment right now.
[00:31:27] And then the bridge across the Delta or the gap to that ideal future life of how do we get there? So it again it it's not about thinking about 10 years down the track for these teenagers. It's not relevant But how do we build things that are? important and meaningful to them in this point in time and Some cool things about goal setting is it may show further uncertainty.
[00:31:47] I'm just working on a case at the moment, a student's really interested, from a career standpoint and they're quite academic. They're quite interested in like either finance or engineering and we're toying with those, those different things. And they're just at a point when we're about to start goals and they're like that when they're not sure.
[00:32:00] So we're having a conversation is like, well, what more information right now. Do you need to know as you're starting to think about these opportunities and these opportunity sets and, and how can you think about them from a critical standpoint? And so they're able to then think about, well, what do they value?
[00:32:14] And they're talking about things like earnings potential and, promotion pathways and how that ladders up to, you know, they've got a goal of. So that, you know, it's a specific case, but that's just an example of it of how then we can go backwards and start understanding more around how we can help them.
[00:32:28] Casey O'Roarty: Could be a future conversation could be even realizing as we talk, and you've said this a couple of times, like visualizing their ideal life, what are the things that you can do that are going to. Get you there. So I really appreciate that. And how does all of this connect with purpose?
[00:32:44] Will Kirsop: Yeah, so purpose, purpose is a big word and there's probably a number of ways to look at it.
[00:32:50] And I think that, again, I'll just, that, that bowling ball analogy is like really the way I like to think about purpose of, we are just trying to get to the point of helping that ball selection and then, and then provide. runway for that to be brought into life from a literature definition purposes.
[00:33:05] Casey O'Roarty: Cause I want to say this again, for parents, we want to get to the place of, we want them to pick a ball. Right. And I think. What I want everybody to remember is it's not up to us, the adults, to decide which ball is the right ball for our kids. And I think that well intentioned, loving adults feel like they see the path, they see what's right, they see the right fit.
[00:33:32] They think, you know, they know better. And so they really want to hand the ball to the kiddo. And then they're confused as to why the kid might not even want to throw the ball. So I really am appreciating and listening to your language. We want them to pick a ball and then we get to support them in what they choose.
[00:33:50] Will Kirsop: Exactly. And to me, purpose is much more a state of being than like an external or an end outcome. And I think that's something really. important to consider and purpose can vary and it can come up in many different forms. For some people it's family and/or community for some people it might be in their work.
[00:34:09] But the way I try and help teams think about purpose is, what are we doing right now? And what's the next stepping stone on the path? And then if in a really good engagement, like, how do we change a stepping stone into a springboard of, like, for projecting them forward into the things that they, they want to do?
[00:34:27] So that's what it might be. And so when we think about it from. Some of the different examples of, you know, when students list out different goals of long term things like houses and families, which is interestingly, as I've said, that's something that they do talk about is what are the things at the moment?
[00:34:43] Is it around social connection that we're really trying to optimize for? Is it cases you've said, you know, waking up and just feeling excited about the day, like how do we cultivate those states of being? And that's really what it is at this age. And again, a lot of it ladders to that status and respect for within peers.
[00:34:59] And applicants as well.
[00:35:01] Casey O'Roarty: So, and I know like you mentioned that you work a little bit with the parents towards the end and I'm sure you see, you know, there's the work you do with the kids and then there's the relationship that is fostered simply in the investing. I mean, it's the parents that are investing in you for their kiddos and you know, something that.
[00:35:21] I basically already just said this, but I'm going to say it in another way, right? We, life is so full of opportunities. To learn from and grow through, like, and I, let's just stay with bowling, right? I mean, I might, I as the teenager might pick up a ball that I'm not going to know isn't a good ball for me until I have a chance to play around with it, right?
[00:35:50] And then I know in my heart, you know what, I'm going to trade this in for something different. And I think that the biggest obstacle for teens, one of the, not the biggest, but one obstacle for teens is really their parents and how we get so busy telling them, no, no, no, do it this way or do it that way.
[00:36:10] Or here's what's going to happen if you do it that way. Or here's what's going to happen if you just want to study art. Like people, you know, I mean, it's like the age old, like you can't be an artist and it's hard to watch our kids. stumble and make mistakes and grind through, tough, challenging experiences, especially when, we, the experienced older folk can say like, Oh man, I could have told you.
[00:36:38] Yeah. Right? That that was going to happen. How do you support parents in untangling themselves from emotionally, because I think that's our biggest problem is we're just way too entangled in our kids experience. How do you support parents in that untangling, or at least in helping them to see that they are indeed a part of the dynamic that's happening for their teen, whether it's positive or negative?
[00:37:06] Will Kirsop: Yeah, it's a big question. And one of the things I love the most is working with parents. It's actually so much fun. And I think you're right, Casey, in the sense of, it's just like anything in your life. When you're in any sort of situation, you're so close to it. But when you step away, you can get more perspective.
[00:37:22] And I think for all of us, and this just doesn't go for parents, but anyone in life, like we all to some degree project our values, our beliefs on the world into Situations into relationships, all of those things. And I think one thing with parents, I always try and be really compassionate, right?
[00:37:37] Like you guys are doing such a good job. If you're spending your time listening to this podcast, you're obviously so dedicated to your own growth and to your children. So I always, you know, I know that the right intention is there and. I'd just like to also add, a lot of this stuff is bi directional, right?
[00:37:54] In terms of teen influencing parent, parent influencing teen, so there is a lot of reciprocity as well. So every, every single time it is different. It's a
[00:38:03] Casey O'Roarty: dynamic that we
[00:38:04] Will Kirsop: are in together for sure, for sure, for sure. Absolutely. So what, and I actually collaborate with parents quite a lot, throughout the program that I have.
[00:38:13] And, it's really rewarding. But the things that come to mind often is, for me, it's about providing some of the insights that I'm seeing, hearing, maybe just even observing on a level and actually just sharing that with the parents. And then the cool thing is they often see that and, but it might be one of us might see it in a little bit of a different way and then talking about it and then how that
[00:38:35] situation is, I guess, playing out or is, manifesting in their teen and what is appropriate in terms of, supporting their teen as they navigate those different, challenges they might be going through or everything like that. So yeah, a lot of it is just having really healthy dialogue.
[00:38:49] And then, you know, when I put on the pedagogical hat and talking about, like, a lot of the time, it's just helping. normalize developmentally what these teens are going through and the shapes and the shifts and all of this, these little subtleties and nuances these, these teens are kind of going through as they're developing and just helping mom and dad just take a big breath in and a sigh of relief out like it's all actually okay and it's all for the most part very normal what a lot of these teens are going through with social challenges, emotional challenges, behavioral things.
[00:39:21] And, I mean, they're getting pumped with hormones their body didn't have a few years ago. So, it's just their way of responding and flowing to what's going on in their bodies and in their minds.
[00:39:33] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, there's no getting around teen brain development, like there's no skipping individuation.
[00:39:38] There's no repressing what Dan Siegel calls the essence of adolescence. Absolutely I totally appreciate that because I think yeah, we get really scared. We get really frustrated and What your, your role, your work is a testament to, you know, I had a couple months ago a friend on and we talked about, she has this whole idea of the anti revolution, and we talked about how powerful it is to have multiple adults in our teens lives, and not only for the teen to go to, but I think also so that As I'm listening to you talk, I'm realizing like it is so useful to see our kids through the eyes of somebody else who doesn't have all of the baggage and by baggage, I mean my own conditioning and my own hopes and dreams and you know, as the mom, what I want and what I wanted for myself and like, it's, there's so much that gets in the way of us truly seeing the kiddo that we have and having a coach.
[00:40:42] Yeah. a counselor, a teacher, a good friend, a family member, somebody else, others in our community in relationship with our teens and say, this is who I see. This is what I think is really cool about your kid. You know, and doing the same, you guys doing the same for our friends kids, right? I think it's so powerful and so useful.
[00:41:04] So thank you again for your work and for supporting kids in, moving towards creating a life that they want and really helping them. What I'm hearing you say too, is helping them realize that they can, right? I think a lot of kids don't realize that they can.
[00:41:23] Will Kirsop: Like huge thing about it is, and he says it doesn't come from anyone, but I sometimes find they haven't given them themselves permission
[00:41:30] Casey O'Roarty: to
[00:41:30] Will Kirsop: drink big.
[00:41:31] And that's a huge thing, like they've never, and this is how we construct, like, you know, schools about going and accumulating knowledge that sometimes doesn't resonate, and it's this big buffet, and you have to eat everything at the buffet, but we don't have this purpose driven education where we're actually thinking about ourselves, and our place in the world, and our identity, and our vision for ourself.
[00:41:53] And so, We don't have a culture of cultivating that and some families absolutely do, but it's it's across the board. It's not something like I often find. I'm like, hey, you need to dream bigger, like, you know, and and and kids will say things like, oh, well, that's hard. Or there's a housing and affordability costs, all these different things.
[00:42:08] And those things are valid. And I'm not invalidating any of those points. But hey, like, what would you do if you know to Alan? What's like, you know, if money was no object, you didn't have to worry about these things. Like, how would you? Create and cultivate your own life. And that's really what we're trying to think about.
[00:42:23] Casey O'Roarty: I love it.
[00:42:24] Thank you so much, Will. Thank you for coming and talking to me about what you're doing. I think there's so many takeaways here Hopefully you listeners had a piece of paper handy and took some notes. Otherwise listen again, there's so much here I think that we can weave into the way we be with our kids and Knowing that there are people for hire like you to work with our kiddos is, is so special.
[00:42:49] I always end my podcasts with the same. Question, so I'm going to ask you Will, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:42:57] Will Kirsop: That's a really good one. So the first thing that comes to mind, Casey, is that I always say we're almost in the business of having courageous conversations. So when I think about the word courage, I think that that's a big, big thing and that's all of us, right?
[00:43:09] Like. you, me, parents having those courageous conversations. I actually really like an Irish poet philosopher called David White. He wrote this book called Consolations and he writes short essays on different topics. He defines courage as the measure of a heartfelt participation in life.
[00:43:25] And that's just always. Ooh, I love that. He actually always repeats his poetry, so I will not do it anywhere near as good as him, but, the measure of a heartfelt participation in life. Ah. And it's always really struck a chord with me, and I guess courage comes from cour in French, like the heart, so it's, there really is this, heartfelt sense when we think about the word courage.
[00:43:45] And then, joy, I think, there's this openness, this serenity, maybe fulfillment of the word joy or joyful that it's quite full and it's quite whole. So I guess combining those two words, I probably think about strength and serenity is how I
[00:44:01] Casey O'Roarty: Where can people find you and follow what you're doing?
[00:44:04] Will Kirsop: Yeah, I guess the easiest way is just manyroads. co, um, manyroads.co or you can just email me will@manyroads.co. So, yeah, that's the best place to find me.
[00:44:14] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. I'll make sure those links are in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today, Will. I know it's early for you on Friday, even though it's a As it's late in the afternoon for me on Thursday.
[00:44:24] So thank you so much for making this happen.
[00:44:26] Will Kirsop: No, it's been a pleasure and thanks to everyone who's, who's tuned in. Um, you guys are rock stars, so thank you.
[00:44:36] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you so much to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana, as well as Danielle. And Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting this show out there and helping it to sound so good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay better connected at besproutable.
[00:45:01] com. Tune back in on Monday for a brand new interview and I will be back solo with you next Thursday. Have a great day.
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