Transcription
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Hey, welcome to the Joyful Courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work, people. And when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact.
[00:00:27] My name is Casey O'Roarty, I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach, and the adolescent lead at Sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting.
[00:00:47] This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent, and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt. That what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget, sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials or text it to your friends.
[00:01:13] Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show. Hey everyone, my guest today is Jen Ireland. Jen is a USSFC licensed youth soccer coach and founder of Expand Your Game and the Mindset Mastery Academy, which she created to help girls ages 10 to 18, not just survive the environment.
[00:01:44] Pressure, expectation, and comparison culture that is youth sports today, but thrive inside of it. Her life's work is to inspire female soccer players to focus on their mental wellness, empowering them to cultivate a healthy relationship with the game and maximize their performance on the field. In addition to running her mental skills program, Jen has also worked as the mental skills coach for Minnesota Aurora FC and is the mental skills coordinator at Berkshire Soccer Academy in Massachusetts.
[00:02:17] More so than anything, Jen's mission is to help young women not just play better soccer, but feel better about themselves as humans and develop a foundation of true, deep confidence and belief in themselves and their abilities. Hi, Jen. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:02:32] Jenn Ireland: Hi Casey, thanks for having me.
[00:02:36] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And as I read your bio, I'm kind of sitting with, this isn't, and listeners, this isn't necessarily going to be a conversation all about soccer, right?
[00:02:46] But really how we can show up in a way for our young people, boys and girls, that supports them. in developing that inner dialogue, that inner confidence, developing those skills that they need to move through life's challenges, whether it's on a sports field or court or somewhere else. So I'm really excited to get to know you.
[00:03:09] Can we start with a bit about how you found yourself doing this work?
[00:03:14] Jenn Ireland: Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think just to piggyback off what you just said, I think that Sports is such a unique place to explore a lot of this self development work, and I think that for kids for young adults, um, they don't want to work on life skills.
[00:03:32] They want to get better scoring, right? So they want to play their sport better. But all of this stuff translates to school to life, everything and The sports is not a way to disguise it, but a way to get them invested in it. And it carries into both things. So I got involved in this work. I was, I've been a soccer coach for a long time.
[00:03:54] I played growing up, but I was coaching and I was in my own personal life. Doing a lot of development work, learning a lot about myself, just kind of on one of those, like, you know, self development, just like, you know, tailspins that we can get on sometimes, which are so, so great, but I was coaching eighth grade girls at the time, and I remember Like a moment where I was just thinking about them, watching them, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, all of these things that I am now trying to help myself with perfectionism, overthinking, you know, you name it.
[00:04:30] I was seeing it in them. And I had a completely different view of coaching from there on out. And I was like, I got to help them get ahead of it. So it started as me just developing. Tools that they could use little accountability things at training to help them be the best versions of themselves. Lots of collective stuff like culture stuff with the group and mostly just helping like start some of these conversations because I think that's a big issue is that we pressure expectations.
[00:05:01] Whether we're talking about sport or life, those are real things, and we don't address them nearly as much as we should, which then kind of, they just, you know, they learn to push them away, not deal with them, and then, you know, if we're talking about the sports context, all their training is just in the sport context.
[00:05:19] You know, the technical, tactical, physical aspects of the game. They never touch on these mental aspects. But then you ask any athlete what percentage of sport is mental, and they're gonna give you, like, a high number. So there's clearly a gap. Um, but yeah, that was how I got started. I was coaching and doing my own work.
[00:05:39] And then I was like, oh, we're on to something here. And ever since then, I've just been kind of flying down this path here and doing whatever I can to Help young women play better soccer. Yeah, but most importantly just help them feel better about themselves as humans because that's really what it's all about.
[00:05:55] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Well, and it's so interesting to listen to you talk and to think about a metaphor that I use a lot here on my show, which is the iceberg. And, you know, how the behavior we see is often a result of What's going on under the surface and I would imagine I've owned my experience of youth sports I mean I played I wasn't I didn't ever get like VIP, but I did always get like most inspirational I was a rock star encourager My skills weren't really all that and I it didn't really bother me for whatever reason.
[00:06:34] I just liked the group experience And then watching my own kids, my daughter for a brief period of time played very competitive volleyball. And then my son played basketball and was exposed to a variety of coaching, you know, and in the end quit playing basketball because of the coaching that he was receiving.
[00:06:56] And it's so painful to watch coaches and adults. Put so much weight into that tip of the iceberg and that outcome and results and really miss the power of like you said the mental game and the connection and the relationship and you kind of alluded to like Culture and so I'm really excited to talk with you.
[00:07:24] I think this fits right in with A lot of what is brought up here on the podcast. And can we talk a little bit about youth sports today? I mean, when my son was younger, I remember going to the baseball field and seeing the sign on the backstop directed to parents. Basically, in a nutshell, keep your shit together.
[00:07:45] Like these are children, you know? And then I recently saw something online that was a call to re normalize rec. Sports and rec team. It feels like the whole youth sports industry has gotten so hard core and so early on. I mean, I'm sure that's what you're seeing as well. I would love to hear your take on that.
[00:08:09] Jenn Ireland: Yeah, it's um, it's definitely shifted and changed, um, a lot even in the past 10 years, I would say. The elite levelness of all the different sports has really, changed the landscape a lot, I will say. I've been, so I've been involved in youth sports. in different roles over the past 10 years, right? Head coaching, assistant coaching.
[00:08:31] I've been on, I've seen the state association side where, you know, we get reports of all the incidences that happen on the fields. And, you know. And the
[00:08:39] Casey O'Roarty: incidents are
[00:08:40] Jenn Ireland: of the parents. Yeah, they are, they are. Yeah. And also, you know, From my role as a mental skills coach, I am getting a very, very unique perspective.
[00:08:53] And that is that I get to have hundreds and hundreds of conversations, very real conversations with middle school and high school aged girls. So from all those different angles, I think that I can put together lists of patterns that I see that are really prevalent in today's sports culture. I would say that Yes, eSports has diverged from what sports is supposed to be about, right?
[00:09:21] In quotes, that character development, that stuff. That stuff is all there, and ultimately we want to shift back to it, but we've kind of gotten lost out there in like, you're right, this win at all cost mentality, this like, we put so much weight on this one definition of success, which is win games, you know, score points, don't get scored on, don't mess up.
[00:09:43] Like, the whole cultural message shifts that way, and I'll tell you, this is very common, even when parents are striving and trying their very, very best to have good, healthy conversations at home. And the coach is like, one that is supporting, like, it's okay, make mistakes, be creative. The kid, and this is mostly the kid that I work with, and I'm generalizing here, obviously, but the kid is, is, is someone who still is beating herself up, never able to find success.
[00:10:16] thinking that everything that she does is wrong and is her own worst inner critic, even when the environment is healthy around them, like in that immediate part. But I think it's a much bigger cultural issue. And I mean, we can extend this outside of sports, right? But it's that pressure and those expectations that these kids are feeling.
[00:10:35] From such a young age. And I know in my bio, you said I work with 10 to 18. I will say that this year it has shifted and I do have some eight and nine year olds now, which is wild to me. But the reason that they're ready to do this work to dive into this stuff is because they have. Hit that kind of barrier where the dynamics shift a little bit because true rec sport when we're just starting is about yes, it's a it's about it's about the teamwork.
[00:11:01] It's about the life skills. It's about the having fun. The learning the new sport that going out there and enjoying yourself when we are truly in that headspace is. Which any of us that have ever played a sport can remember at some point, because that's why you start and kind of why you get hooked. You know, even people that are playing pro now, they had, I call it rainbows and sunshines.
[00:11:19] They had this moment, right? And then something happened, and it could be, we got a coach that took things too seriously, or we moved over into club or competitive, right? And there was suddenly levels. I had to compete against people. People were coming to take my spot. Something happens with a dynamic shift, and then they're in this space.
[00:11:39] where no one is, they're having all these feelings about it. It's totally different. The fun isn't quite what it used to be, but they're not really given any guidance on what to do. So lots of coaches and me as well, I've done this on the field, but in very well intentioned parents as well, we'll say things like, Just stop overthinking.
[00:12:00] You got to get out of your head. Just move past the mistake. Don't let the pressure get to you. Just don't hesitate. Like, you're so good. Why don't you believe in yourself more? And the kid is literally like, like, you know, I say this to the kids and they laugh because it's true. They're like, uh, that sounds great.
[00:12:14] Can you tell me how to do that, please? Right. Because they don't know how. Right. And I think that going back to the original question, eSports has absolutely shifted. And part of my mission is to help us find a way back to that while still maintaining this. If you are very good and you want to seek the top level of play, like, please go for it.
[00:12:38] Like, do it, right? But we gotta do it in a healthy way. And that goes to my healthy relationship with the game, which is my whole mission. And to me, what that means is that I could be a very competitive, very driven, focused, want to win, want to score, like all that passion, right? That's totally great to have, and amazing, and like you need that if you want to be the best you can be.
[00:13:01] But I can do all that? And at the same time, as long as I've been given everything I've got in the spaces I can control, and the win doesn't happen for me, or the goal doesn't happen, or whatever doesn't happen, I will still be okay. So can I hold space for both of those at once? And the current culture cannot.
[00:13:18] It can only hold space for the be competitive. When that's the only definition of success, right? It doesn't hold space for the other part of this, which is, are you finding success today by doing the things you can't control by moving towards being the person you want to be by all that stuff? And that has to be just as important.
[00:13:38] So,
[00:13:39] Casey O'Roarty: yeah, it seems like there's a polarity, right? It's either rec sports. Where everyone gets the same amount of playtime and it's feel good, it's non competitive ish, or it's this like hyper competitive space. And what I'm hearing you talk about is a place in the middle where it's competitive. There's nothing wrong with competition, right?
[00:14:11] And healthy competition actually can invite us to rise. Correct. To new places. Mm hmm. And, yeah, like, that conversation around, you know, I remember saying to my son, who was on a losing basketball team for years, he never had the chance to be on, like, a superstar team, which was so, like, I kept telling myself.
[00:14:35] It's hard. Yeah. Character development. Character development. Except. There wasn't character development. There was berating and poor leadership along with that. And we can put this inside of like school and academic performance as well, where. You know, I think about parents who say, Well, you just need to do your best, right?
[00:14:59] And by the way, doing your best means that you have all A's, right? Versus like, kind of the coddling of a really low bar. I don't know. I mean, it just feels like, and this is happening, this pendulum swing, right? I mean, everybody getting a trophy, participation medals. Versus Ernie, we just joked, our family, so Facebook gives us, you know, memories.
[00:15:26] Oh yeah. And recently, the memory that came up was when the kids were really young, four and six, we used to go up to the mountain and they did a six week ski school experience. And the last day was always a race. Right? In their age groups. And for whatever reason, every year, my daughter, who's older, would win a second place trophy, and she would come home with a trophy.
[00:15:50] And Ian, my son, never won. He got the participation medal, and he would. just free, like he had no shame, like on the ground, in the snow, falling apart, freaking out and we, I posted to our little group chat, I was like, remember how hardcore Ian was about not winning the trophy? And it was so funny to watch them kind of banter back and forth about it.
[00:16:15] And granted he was like four, five, six. So he's very young to be able to appreciate like, you know, your sister actually, you know, she did what she needed to do. So anyway, blah, blah, blah. All of this to say, like, that messy middle of what's your best? Where are you growing and developing? What does it look like for you?
[00:16:37] And I'm wondering if this is something that you work with athletes around. Like, what does it look like for you to improve? Can you be with where you did? What you needed to do, even as the results of the game, perhaps wasn't a win.
[00:16:56] Jenn Ireland: Mm
[00:16:56] Casey O'Roarty: hmm. you play?
[00:16:58] Jenn Ireland: A hundred percent. And I think that, you know, going to the emotions part, right?
[00:17:02] Like, I am the first to tell all of my girls that I work with. And it's not just me. I have a couple pro players that are mentoring the girls as well, which is amazing because that mentorship aspect, which I can get into later, but the mentorship aspect is so crucial for, for these girls. I would say that.
[00:17:18] I always am the first to say. If you are in front of that goal on the soccer field and you do everything within your control that you can do and that goalie is just having the best day of her life where she's seven feet tall and you take the best shot of your life and she makes a save. Like, you are absolutely allowed to be disappointed.
[00:17:42] Like, that's okay, right? Because you give so much of yourself to it. The difference is that when we have a healthy relationship with the game, we're disappointed, we're sad, we can be upset, you know, about the things that don't go our way. But, we're not associating ourselves with it. We're not basically saying we're a bad person because that goal didn't go in.
[00:18:03] Right? We're just like, Oh, I did everything I could. I'm upset. I'm sad and disappointed. It didn't happen, but I know that I did everything that I could. So I'm just going to go out there and try again. I still had success and I'm sad that it didn't count on the scoreboard, but I'm not associating that with my self worth.
[00:18:20] And I think that that's a huge thing that comes into play with this new, I'll call it a sports culture. And this is how I know that kids are ready to do this work. Is all the red flags that they're associating their self worth with performance. And that's the thing that I'm always trying to caution parents to really watch out for.
[00:18:41] And that usually is not just showing up on the sports field. It's also showing up in school. I mean, I have so many young women that I work with that are perfectionists in school. Do need in quotes to get 100 percent on everything in order to feel worthwhile and something that, you know, when parents trust their kids, uh, to work with me in the mentorship environment.
[00:19:06] I mean, I'm very, um, open minded about the factor and, you know, I, I'm a disruptor. I'm going to help them break the mold. I'm going to challenge them to be like, you know, to look at things in different ways and to redefine success for themselves. And to start to see that no, that one wrong answer on the test does not mean that you are doomed for the rest of your life, right?
[00:19:30] Maybe you just think about something differently than somebody else. There's a lot of memorization in school, right? I'm sure you are in it, just getting them to critically think and see things differently. But just a lot of disrupting, breaking the mold and The mental skills aspect of things does not mean that you have to be soft.
[00:19:50] And I think this, this is important too, because a lot of people think, Oh, you're taking the focus off winning. You just want them to be better people. Like that's not very like competitive or like elite level competition. And I think that what people do not understand is this, is that if you are going to be very good at something.
[00:20:12] It is not just going to be your skill at that thing. It's not just going to be your soccer skill. Like if you were going to be the best of the best at soccer, you're going to need a whole heck of a lot. of mental skills, real self skills, resiliency, right? Focus, patience, hard work, motivation, bravery, creativity, curiosity.
[00:20:36] I don't think that people understand that those are not soccer skills. Those are not sports skills. Those are human skills. And that is what we get out of it. sport, right? And when we have those things, it makes our soccer self or athlete self or student self or whatever we're doing, our dancer self, our, you know, musician self better.
[00:20:57] Makes us better.
[00:21:08] Casey O'Roarty: So you had mentioned, you know, the things that we say from a place of, of love and compassion, you know, like get out of your head and great or whatever, you know, we try to encourage our, our kiddos with. And then the response being like, okay, great. Yes, I'd like to. And how do I do it? So what are some ways that you work with kids to help them disrupt what's going on in their head?
[00:21:38] And that like heavy duty disappointment that is a companion of perfectionism.
[00:21:46] Jenn Ireland: I think that for me, there's a couple of components, creating a safe space for them to self discover, self reflect. Be open minded and see things from a new perspective. So their investment in that a lot of the young women I work with are kind of so tired of this that they're like, I'll do anything right.
[00:22:05] So when they're at that point, combine that with like a one on one mentorship space that's not their parent. And it's not their coach, well, like I said, well, they may be getting like the perfect messaging from them. I mean, you know, this in one ear and out the other when your mom says it, right? So creating that space for them and then knowing them well enough.
[00:22:26] And this is why I only work with girls and only work with a certain kind of age range because I know their experience well enough that I can really guide them with very foundational things that I know they need to learn. but then bend it to meet them where they're at. So top number one thing, and this does not need to be sports.
[00:22:43] This can be anything is helping young women gain self awareness of what I call the default mode. That is kind of my book. Yeah. Yeah. So it's basically how in depending on the age, right? We go about this all different, but the default mode is basically, it's not you. It's the voice in your head, it's a, it's a primitive, it's that fight or flight response.
[00:23:09] It's basically there to protect you. The way I explain it to the nine year old is that, you know, there's two cavemen. One was walking around being like, where's the bear? Where's the bear? Like, where's the lion? And the other one's like, oh, that's nice. Yeah. I'm gonna take a nap in the sun. Which one of those is going to get eaten, right?
[00:23:27] The one taking a nap, the one that's having kind of the negative thoughts come up, the overthinking, being a little bit anxious. That actually helped that person survive at that point. So that's kind of built into us. But now when we're on the sports field or when we're at school, there isn't a lion or a bear or a snake coming to eat us, but our brain doesn't know that.
[00:23:49] And it is trying to help you. So I spend a, we spend a ton of time with the girls, um, disassociating. For some of the younger ones, I can get them to turn it into a, A character and give it a name and start having conversations with it, and I will tell you that aspect alone. It is wild to see the shifts they can make with that because they're like, Oh, it's not me.
[00:24:11] I'm not being mean to myself. It's just this thing that's happening to me. And then they stop double shaming themselves because the worst thing that I see, and I do this as well, but I see this a lot with, you know, middle school and high school age girls is that they And once they start, they know that they're an overthinker and then they shame themselves for overthinking and then they're caught in this double cycle of doing it.
[00:24:30] And it's kind of step one because you do need to know that you're overthinking, but we don't want to be. Treating ourselves poorly because we're doing it, we more just want to note that it's happening, like observe, right? Because the first step to all of this is, you can't, if you notice that you're overthinking, hours later, you're overthinking at that game today.
[00:24:50] Um, it's not going to help you so much. You gotta kind of start to be able to notice it while you're doing it. So I think that's really the foundational aspect is to help them learn the skills of becoming aware of their thoughts in the moment that they're happening, and then learning to disassociate with that voice, and that is something that I have found.
[00:25:13] I am not quite able to do in group settings. I can kind of drop little nuggets, but man, that one to one work, it's what, it's what makes the shift happen. And it's just that safe space. And you know, we don't go there right away. We spend time developing our relationship. Um, but then we almost make it. It just, everything becomes more objective, less judgmental,
[00:25:36] and
[00:25:37] Jenn Ireland: they can actually shift pretty fast because it's just, it's not me doing it.
[00:25:41] Like, I understand that I'm not, I'm not beating myself up. So that's kind of the first huge crucial step. And then all the tools, there's hundreds of tools out there. And you know, whether we're talking about sports or all different sorts of work, right? There's a million things we can use. Yeah. They work way better.
[00:25:57] Yeah. Once you have that self awareness and you can, because the opposite of the default mode as what I call the inner coach, and that is the you voice that is like, if you could pause at any point in your day or regular life and catch your default mode, what would you want to say instead? Everybody has something like if you, you know.
[00:26:17] If you're in a conversation and you ask them to role play that, they'll give you something. Oh, I would want to say this, this, and this. I'm like, okay, right there. That's your inner coach. You have one. It's there. You just showed it to me.
[00:26:26] Now
[00:26:26] Jenn Ireland: we got to make that thing way stronger, right? Yeah. Um, much harder with the older girls for sure.
[00:26:31] Takes a little bit longer, right, to disassociate. Um, the younger ones can actually do it really quickly, which is cool, but in my opinion and through my work and what I've seen works. If the kid is invested and kind of tired of that inner critic voice and they just want the house works 100 percent of the time.
[00:26:51] Like it really does. It's that investment piece that makes the
[00:26:54] Casey O'Roarty: difference. Well, it's funny because it's the same work I do with parents. Mm hmm. Yep. And going back to those older girls that are tougher and there are some reluctance, like what do you, what are they gaining from holding on to that? inner critic?
[00:27:14] Jenn Ireland: Well, I think they're so identified with it that they just struggle. That's why I think when they're younger, they have a little bit of an imagination, right? Like that helps. Yeah. I think they're just so identified with it. And I've been there, right? I have, I have been there that it becomes it, even though we talk about it and we walk them through different.
[00:27:35] Because a lot of the work I do is like motivational interviewing, so it's getting them to find it themselves. Yes. We walk them through different things and they, they get it. They get it intellectually, but in here, they still feel like it's them. So I think it's just way more woven into the fabric of their being, which again is why I'm always like, like I just continue to disrupt, right?
[00:27:59] I am like, we got to opt out. We got to opt out everything that you think to be true. Uh, is something that somebody made up, like there aren't actually any rules about any of this stuff. You think that there are, I should do this, I should do that. I'm a master at being like, shoulds are, throw all the shoulds out the window, right?
[00:28:17] Yeah. And I think we just have to continue the conversation, I think, with the older ones, because. One conversation is not going to work, two conversations not going to work, you know, they're not going to go and do a group program on their own or, you know, probably read a bunch of books. Some of them might, but I think when we just keep hitting this stuff in a safe space and telling them that it's normal.
[00:28:39] And I, I really focus on helping them understand that these are shared experiences. They are not alone. And I know that. Beyond a doubt to be true because I'm talking to multiple girls that live in different places that are just in completely different, you know, environments that the same stuff shows up.
[00:28:58] So that's how I know that it's social conditioning, it's cultural, but I think it's, it's that normalizing the conversation because we don't, we don't do that. And that is one thing that I would say that if you are. a coach or a leader of a group of young people. I think one of the best things you can do, a lot of people won't say anything or do anything because they don't, I don't, I don't know how to talk about, you know, mental skills or mental wellness.
[00:29:21] Like, well, I'll be the first one to say, you know, there's no right or wrong answer. You don't need to tell them how to do anything. You just need to tell them that it's real and that you get that it's hard. And if you do that, like, you are doing them so much wonders
[00:29:37] Casey O'Roarty: already. Right. Well, and I think there's something to be said for the fact that you mentioned you've done your own work around mental skills, right?
[00:29:50] I'm going to pull this into the parenting piece and the work that I do with parents because It literally is the same, like the more that they can, we work on self awareness of their, like I said, shoot from the hip reactivity to their kids versus can I be in response? Can I pay attention to the indicators that I am in that fight or flight that I'm in that reactive mode?
[00:30:18] Am I willing to do something about it? Can I dismantle? This cultural, whatever, lessons, messaging around well, you're the parent, you have the answers, you're here to teach them, you know, you have to make sure that they do XYZ and they follow this path, right? We talk, we break that down because the, you know, typically the parents that I work with.
[00:30:46] Their kids are struggling, and they're struggling with their kids. And so, there's the talking about it, and then there's the practicing of noticing, the practicing of shifting into inner coach when you realize default mode is driving the interaction. And that practice, we can role play it for days. But the true test is on the field and with parents, the field is that, you know, surly teenager walking through the door in their stuff.
[00:31:27] And do I, the parent, am I going to take that? What I'm perceiving is disrespect. This was something I was just talking to somebody about. They were so disrespectful when we said no about this thing. And I got to talk about the idea that discouragement, feeling discouraged. can manifest as, can look like disrespect.
[00:31:50] Feeling dysregulated, being dysregulated, can manifest as, as anger and blame and all of these things. And if we stay focused on that, we're missing this opportunity to lean into, wow, that, that was really discouraging to you. So let's play, let's sit here. Let's work around the discouragement, right? It's the same.
[00:32:17] I mean, it is
[00:32:18] Jenn Ireland: all of this work and like across any different, you know, medium or different groups of people, different environments, different, even in your workplace, right? Like, it's all the same stuff. It's that. Can I? Can I be less dysregulated? Can I catch myself? Can I respond? And you know, I use a lot of these words with my players as well, and I have a lot of players that are, you know, still with me after, because their initial program is like 12 weeks, but then I have people that I've had for like 3 or 4 years, right?
[00:32:49] We have some amazing conversations. I tell some of these guys, I'm like, Man, if I would, if I had the awareness and the conversations that you're having as a freshman in high school, like my life would have been totally different. But yeah, it's that what things like trigger the dysregulation. That's huge.
[00:33:08] And then working with. Then to basically if this then that plans plan ahead of time, which eliminates a lot of the anxiety, right? Cuz they're like I already know My kid comes in the door doing this thing Here is the type of person that I would like to be like already has three planet in the response It's so much.
[00:33:29] It's not easy. I won't say that but it's so much easier to Respond that way when you kind of when you were, you know, regulated and couldn't think about it when you thought through how you want to be. And I think that's a big part of the work I do too. I'm always asking these young women to you need a very clear definition of the type of human that you want to be known as.
[00:33:54] And then anytime something goes hard, your job is to just show up as that type of person you want to be, right? You want to be a resilient person? Well, guess what? Act resilient. You don't feel resilient? That's okay. Go out and act that way. And about after two minutes, you'll feel resilient, right? So yeah.
[00:34:08] And by the way,
[00:34:09] Casey O'Roarty: resilience gets practiced and birthed. When things are hard, not when things are easy peasy, right? That's, you know,
[00:34:30] yeah, my two questions that I kind of continue to bring people back to is who do I want to be in the face of uncertainty, right? Who do I want to be in the face of surly teen? And what do I want to create? Right? And what do I want to create? You know, because sometimes parents will be like, well, I show up curious, I'm trying to be encouraging, and they just, you know, whatever, fill in the blank.
[00:34:56] And that's not the point, right? Their response isn't the point, right? The point is, what do you want to, what do you want to work to create? How do you want to feel after the interaction, regardless of the response that you're getting from the other person? What is success for you?
[00:35:13] Jenn Ireland: For you personally, what is success in this interaction?
[00:35:15] It's not whatever they do. Yeah. But it's for you. What's your definition of success?
[00:35:20] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. So do you, so you're working with elite athletes. What do you find in all of your years of working with soccer players and youth sports? Where does the elite athletic drive come from? Is it intrinsic? For some, like, and I, I'm guessing, I know the answer, like, I'm guessing you see both, right?
[00:35:41] That intrinsic drive versus the parent drive, and can you talk a little bit about those two different things? I do
[00:35:47] Jenn Ireland: think that it gets a little bit messy, again, in here because, with, with the shift in the sports culture, because every parent is putting their kid in elite level sports at age seven, right?
[00:36:00] Yeah. And there's a lot of kids. Yeah. Yeah. That have been doing this for a long time by the time they get to like high school or about ready to go to college, right? Yeah. And they don't know who they are beyond that sport. That being said, a lot of kids as well are doing something because they have always been, not just because their parents put it in, but they've just been good at it.
[00:36:23] And they don't know who they are without it, but they're afraid to let it go. Because they don't know anything else, and their self worth has gotten completely folded into their identity as that player. So, in a lot of those cases, I do see parents that have given everything for their kid in a sport, and the kid is just not They're performing well.
[00:36:52] They're doing very good, right? But they're just not putting their foot on the gas or over it. Extra little thing. Exactly. Right. Yeah. But they're not like quite burnt out yet. So they're kind of in this just like. Like, man, I do this because I'm good. Like I can, I'm probably good enough to go play college sports, like, but I'm just not as invested in it.
[00:37:15] Um, there are a lot of kids like that. And I think that that is a culprit of kind of the culture too. And like putting kids down one tunnel, one path, like too early. That being said, most of the athletes that I get, and I think it's because of the space that we've cultivated. majority of them are the ones that are very invested and want to figure it out and are very motivated but don't have the hows.
[00:37:43] So I kind of see that is what my world is, trying to help those kids actually be able to, they're very authentically driven and have a lot of motivation. But they're actually holding themselves back because they're full of limiting beliefs and they, they just have all this other stuff going on, right? So trying to help them clear some of this stuff away so they can actually like align with who they actually are, right?
[00:38:11] And then I would say when I'm coaching on the field, I see the other end of the spectrum a lot. And that is the ones that just, they're not invested. They're just there. They're training because their parents dropped them off. Right. Yeah. It's a, it's the whole, there's this one line that is great. It's like, Are you here to compete?
[00:38:31] Are you here to participate? Right? There's a lot of kids that are here to participate and then the ones that are really invested struggle because they see their teammates like, why are you messing around? Like, I want to play good this weekend. Let's work together. Right? Yeah. So that's a hard thing for a lot of young women as well because yeah.
[00:38:50] They're trying to, they're actually very invested. They actually want to learn. They're curious. And then they got to deal with all these teammates who aren't. And I think that that creates a lot of space for cliques, mean girl culture, which is a huge thing that I talk with every single one of my athletes is if they are not in it right now, they have been in that before.
[00:39:10] So that's a whole nother conversation, but I don't, the kids that aren't motivated though. Some of them, if given the space to explore and to figure themselves out, kind of can come to a different conclusion and actually inspire themselves a little bit, right? Like, through a lot of the work that we do, I've actually had some kids kind of figure, they've been, they've been told they're so good, they're playing at the highest levels of the game, they've been told they should go D1 and go do all this stuff, but like, it doesn't, like, something's not sitting right with them.
[00:39:40] Right. I have a couple kids that I'm thinking of right now that wanted to go do things in college that being a D1 athlete wasn't going to let them afford them the time to do like go into a athletic training, for example, right? Like one of my players really wants to do that. But if she plays D1, there won't be time for it.
[00:39:57] So through us working together, she was able to kind of figure out, okay, I I am getting to know myself enough so now I can stand on the decision that I'm going to play a lower level so that I can do this other thing that I want. And before she didn't have the voice to say that or the foundation of self belief.
[00:40:17] So she kind of like found herself a little bit. And I think that sometimes a lack of motivation doesn't mean that a kid will always not be motivated. I just think that current environment has probably just like Sucked them dry of it and they need a shake up and they need to truly figure out am I doing this for me?
[00:40:35] Am I doing this for mom or dad? Am I doing this because I'm good at it? Am I doing it because I don't know what else to do? Like when you ask a lot of kids that, you know what their answer is? I don't, I don't know. I don't know why I play and I think that a lot of My mission is to just help them figure that out and yeah, they don't want to play that's okay Which is also something that I you know, sometimes warn parents about I'm like, you know, your kid might decide They don't actually like soccer, but I'm just you know, I'm just trying to help her uncover her, you know authentic Yeah.
[00:41:11] Casey O'Roarty: Well, and it's interesting listening to you and thinking about some of my clients and thinking about some of the families that I've known as my kids have played sports, you know, like, My daughter played on this crazy competitive, I don't know how we ended up on this team. She was the twelfth player of twelve players, right?
[00:41:30] Like, they're, she was great. She was really good at volleyball. But I mean, the other eleven girls were like, exceptional. And I watched one particular family whose dad was the coach, mom was super involved, and it was this, you know, all the parents on the team were like, this is not normal. We all like each other, parent wise, like, we all want to hang out together, like, there's no drama, this is not normal, so we're just going to enjoy it.
[00:41:56] The coach's daughter, Went to college to play beach volleyball is is playing on such an elite level and it's clear that she loves it And the parents have really been like we're here to support. We're here to support and I always wonder like where is that? And maybe there's no answer to this right where because I also have clients who have a kiddo Who's always played sports?
[00:42:24] Parents have always coached, it's been a part of the fabric of their family, and now in high school is really struggling, I wonder if maybe there isn't some resentment, you know, in the expectation that'll keep playing and the investment that's already been made, I wonder if kids get to a place where they resent that, if they're really starting to feel like, well, I don't know if I want to play in college.
[00:42:48] I don't know if I want to play next year. I guess my question is like, how do you identify like where it's appropriate to lean in with you love the sport and you're good at it and when it is appropriate to say. This is yours, and you get to decide, and we've invested in something that you've been interested in thus far, and there's no pressure here that because we've invested, especially if like, maybe the parents don't actually mean that, maybe it is like, no dude, if you want to go to college, you're going to need to go.
[00:43:24] A sports scholarship. Mm hmm.
[00:43:25] Jenn Ireland: Like, it just feels really messy. It is. It's super messy. And I think with a lot of this stuff, it's all about balance, and it's all about having lots of conversations. Like, real ones. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, I talk about this. In the context, let's just say perfectionism, for example, there are a lot of things about perfectionism that have very much so helped me get to where I am and build what I've built fine tuning details.
[00:43:50] For example, that can be a good thing, but there are so many spots that it can tip that are extremely detrimental and I think that that is what we bring to this space here, right? For example, if you know, um, Sports are expensive. And if you know, it's a, it's a reach for your kid to, you know, plan an elite level team and you know, you're putting a lot into it financially time wise, all this stuff like, you know, you probably should have those conversations with your kid where, you know, you're, you really want to do this.
[00:44:23] Like we're holding them accountable to showing up and doing the work. That's their end of the bargain. Right? So, Holding them accountable to doing the work and pushing them, but also having them bring that part of it to the table as well, because even the kid that is really accountable, that puts them a lot, they're going to have weeks or, you know, just like we're humans, like we have these where the parent can kind of fill in the gaps and it can be like, you know, together, we kind of know that we're both on the same page, but maybe when you don't have as much of like, I'll kind of help you out a little bit and push you a little bit more in this moment.
[00:44:56] Okay. Thanks. But you do have to hold up your end of the bargain. So, that balance of You know, pushing them, but giving them space to participate as a very active equal participant in that, I think when it gets confusing for the kids is when, like the parents, I think that one thing I talk about this a lot, parents and coaches like our jobs are to unequivocally Make sure that those players and kids know that their worth as a human is not dependent upon their performance and You know as as a parent that we love them or as a coach that we care about them as a human No matter how they perform.
[00:45:40] That's our job. And I think that a lot of times even though We say that out loud the it's again those actions speak louder than words, right? So it's like yeah, I know I know that and this might sound kind of confrontational But it's like some kids don't know that you will still love them Even if they've missed the goal like they don't know that even if you tell them I love you Like it's about like really like you doing the self reflection work you doing The deep dive, you having those conversations so that that kid knows it in their bones, right?
[00:46:19] And that's not something like, you know, you could go, Hey, you know, I love you. Right. And they're going to go like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, but it's, I, this is the special insight that I get by being in this middle space that I'm not the coach, I'm not the parent. Like, I can tell, like, if that kid actually, and sometimes they'll straight up tell me, right?
[00:46:39] Once we get into it enough, but I can tell if that kid truly feels like their value as a human and the love that they receive is based on their performance. And I think that that could be hard from a parenting perspective because we do want to push them, right? And from a coach perspective too, we do want to push them to be their best.
[00:46:55] I am a, from speaking from a coach perspective, I'm very invested in what I do, right? So Okay. Cool. If my players are invested when they show up and they work hard and they're invested and they care, I do not care what their performance looks like, right? We can work on that stuff. But, like, I have a problem when the kids aren't invested.
[00:47:16] And that's where, like, I don't, like, you know, connect with them as well out on the field because I have so much investment in me that I just want them to be the same. But I think that I, as a coach, you know, and I'm always trying to say to step back and meet them where they're at and connect with them because if I can actually, I can say that I care all day and all night because I do, I actually do and of course the parents love the kids like, of course, when we could say these things, but unless that kid feels it, we're not, the magic doesn't matter.
[00:47:56] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, like, I do not have kids myself, but that is a on the field coaching thing that I do struggle because I just want them to be invested. I'm like, why aren't you invested? I'm so invested. But then like it pushes them further away. Right. So like I have to take that time to individually build that relationship and get to know them to the point where they actually do know that I care about them because then when I have to call them out on something.
[00:48:23] It actually lands, right? Because that's the thing.
[00:48:26] Casey O'Roarty: My son at like 11, you know, he went from the YMCA to the Boys and Girls Club, and in our town that was a one step up in competition. He said, God, you know, Pete's just always on my case. Pete was his coach. And I said, well, Pete's coaching you, like it's his job to point things out and help you, you know, but he hadn't had that experience.
[00:48:50] I think what you're talking about, like, why aren't you invested? That's where we get, and you said, you know, meet them where they're at and build relationship. That's where we get to go under the surface and say, tell me about your experience of this game and tell me about your experience of being on the field and, and yeah, without relationship and safety.
[00:49:12] Meaning, you know, parents, when we talk about safety, to me, what that means is I'm not going to be judged or dismissed or criticized if I share my experience with this person, right? That's where we get to what's actually going to be supportive. And I, and I just want to say one more thing before we wrap, which is parents, if you feel like, if you're listening to Jen and you're like, Oh yeah, I do say, that I love them no matter what.
[00:49:40] And maybe that's not actually the message that they're getting. There is, you know, you can go to your kiddo and say, Hey, I wonder if it feels like the most important thing to me is, you know, your performance. I wonder if it feels like, you know, and put it out there and take the time to say, you know, what is important to you.
[00:50:06] Absolutely.
[00:50:07] Casey O'Roarty: And then follow it with continued action and energy in that direction. Mm hmm.
[00:50:13] Jenn Ireland: Yeah. No, it's so important. And, you know, a quick visual that a lot of people will probably connect with if your kid plays any type of sport. If you're sitting on the parent's sideline and you have a yell y coach, right, that's like loud and seems like, you know, that.
[00:50:26] We loved Coach Pete, but damn, that guy could yell. So there is, so it's, it's interesting though. So from the parent perspective, and I've been, I've seen all sides of this, right? If, if that coach has not taken the time to connect with the kids, it's just like, doesn't care about them. Like, you can ask the kid this, does your, you know, does your, do you feel like your coach cares about you as a person, right?
[00:50:47] It's a, they'll give you an answer right away. That's not a hard one for them. But if they do not feel like the coach has connected with them as a person, then that, Yelly coach is now the meanest coach, the hardest coach, like when I like him, you take that exact same visual from the side of the parent side of the field and you're watching the coach do the same thing.
[00:51:04] But if you go to the kid and you're like, how's your coach taking the time to connect with you as human? Do they care about you? And the kid is like, Oh yeah, like they, they helped me walk through all mistakes, do this and that. And then it's like, well, how do you interpret the yelling? Oh, it's just. Yeah. Or they're helping me, right?
[00:51:20] Like maybe I don't love like the volume or something, but I know that there's care behind it. But when the kid actually gets that, and that's the same thing with like the, you know, what is my value to like in the home environment. They interpret it differently.
[00:51:35] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:51:35] Jenn Ireland: And I think that you could push, going back to the original thing, like, you could push your kid pretty hard in a supportive, healthy way if you were having these conversations and you guys know each other inside and out.
[00:51:50] Yeah. Relationship. And you have built
[00:51:51] Jenn Ireland: that relationship. Yep. Then you get more, almost, you buy yourself more, uh, I don't know, get out of jail free cards to, like, push a little harder, right? Yeah. Yeah. So
[00:52:02] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:52:03] Jenn Ireland: Yeah. Again, it just goes back to having these conversations.
[00:52:05] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And the ongoing theme of every conversation that I have here on the podcast, which is relationship, like know your kid, know the kid that you have.
[00:52:16] Yeah. Ah, so good. So my final question that I ask everybody is what does joyful courage mean to you, Jen?
[00:52:24] Jenn Ireland: I love this question. Um, to me, joyful courage means knowing yourself. So well, like having that foundation of like true deep confidence, belief in yourself and your abilities that you can almost get excited about mistakes, about hard things, about challenges, because you know it's a leveling up moment for you.
[00:52:44] You're like, Oh, I don't love that I'm inside this hard moment, but like. I, I thrive off of that expansion, so even though this is scary, it's still joyful to me. So there you go. Joyful courage. Yes. Yes. Where can people find you and follow your work? Yeah. So I'm online at expandyourgame. com. Um, that's the name of my, my business.
[00:53:08] Um, the Mindset Mastery Academy is our 12 week, um, mental skills mentorship program with, I coach in that as well as I have three players that are playing professionally right now for the USA, um, beach soccer team and also USL Super League. So there's a beach, there's a beach, there's a beach soccer team.
[00:53:27] Yeah, there is.
[00:53:28] Casey O'Roarty: I'm sorry. That sounds awful. Any sport on the beach. I'm like. Especially when she spent her whole life
[00:53:35] Jenn Ireland: playing on the field, so yeah, it was a transition for her. But she's amazing. That's Hannah. And then, I'm on Instagram, at Expand Your Game. Great. And I would say that Mindset Mastery Academy is the biggest thing we do, but we're starting a community.
[00:53:48] So that is coming down the line. It's called the assist and we'll be launching soon. So
[00:53:54] Casey O'Roarty: awesome. Awesome. I'll make sure all of that is in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This is really useful. Thank you, Casey. It was great.
[00:54:08] Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you so much to my Sproutable partners, Julieta and Alana, as well as Danielle. And Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting this show out there and helping it to sound so good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay better connected at besproutable.
[00:54:34] com. Tune back in on Monday for a brand new interview and I will be back solo with you next Thursday. Have a great day.
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