Transcription
[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: Hey, welcome to the Joyful Courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work, people. And when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact.
[00:00:27] My name is Casey O'Roarty, I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach, and the adolescent lead at Sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting.
[00:00:47] This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent, and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt. That what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials or text it to your friends.
[00:01:13] Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.
[00:01:25] Hi listeners, welcome back to the podcast. My guest today is Clarissa Moll. Clarissa is an award winning writer and podcaster who helps bereaved people find flourishing after loss. She produces and moderates Christianity Today's flagship new podcast, The Bulletin. She hosted CT's Surprised by Grief podcast, as well as a podcast for authors called The Writerly Life.
[00:01:53] Clarissa's writing appears in Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, Relevant, Modern Loss, Grief Digest, and more. She is the author of four books on bereavement, including the best selling Beyond the Darkness, A Gentle Guide for Living with Grief and Thriving After Loss, and Hurt, Help, Hope, A Real Conversation About Teen Grief and Life After Loss.
[00:02:18] Hi, Clarissa. Welcome to the podcast. Hi. Thanks so much for having me. I'd love to hear a little bit more about you, specifically how you found yourself doing the work that you're doing, specifically writing about teens and grief.
[00:02:33] Clarissa Moll: Sure. Yeah. So I have been a writer for my entire career working in communications and storytelling for nonprofits, but I pivoted my writing to bereavement advocacy after my husband died in 2019 on our family vacation.
[00:02:48] He fell to his death in a hiking accident, leaving me a single mom now with four kids to raise on my own. And over the last almost six years, we have learned to do that. We have learned to live with grief, to thrive after loss. And what we found as we journeyed together through grief was that there were a lot of other people who once we started to share our stories.
[00:03:12] would say, hey, you know what, I experienced loss as a kid, or I have lost a loved one, or I'm anticipating losing a loved one, and I don't know what to do. And so when I wrote my first book, Beyond the Darkness, I found it to be an amazing point of connection for a lot of folks in the grieving community.
[00:03:31] And many of them said to me, hey, do you have any resources for teenagers? So I partnered with my daughter, Fiona, who is a college student to write this book for teens. It's really an underserved population when we think about grief resources. There's a lot for adults. There's a lot for kids. But it kind of makes sense.
[00:03:50] Teens are in this weird moment in life. They've got one foot in adulthood, one foot in childhood. They're sort of unicorns when it comes to grief resources. And so we wanted to create something that was specifically for them, that would meet them where they were at. ask the questions they were asking and address the needs that we felt like that population really needed to have a voice for as they figured out how to grow with the grief that will last with them for a lifetime.
[00:04:17] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, thank you so much for creating this resource. In 2020, my husband was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, which is a blood cancer, and he has been through treatment and, you know, but we now live in a world where cancer is a part of our life and I've got two now, you know, baby adults, I call them a 19 year old and a 22 year old and just as I moved through.
[00:04:42] The beginning of your book, I can really just see how powerful these conversations are to have with these kids. Mine were, man, they must have been 15 and 17, I think, when we went through that, and Well, we continue to go through it, right? And as our kids are moving through that, so are we. And I think about your story and your grief process and not only you taking care of you and processing all of this sudden loss, but having to show up for those four kids.
[00:05:13] So just really seeing you inside of. Yeah. Of what must have been a really tough time and what continues to exist in your world. That's right. Yeah.
[00:05:22] Clarissa Moll: Yeah. We don't grieve in isolation. You know, we, unfortunately, we don't have little caves that we can crawl off into and lick our wounds and heal ourselves and get better and then reenter life again as with most things.
[00:05:34] things that we carry that are hard. We've got to carry them to the office and to the kitchen table, to church, to the baseball diamond, you know, wherever we're going, we have to learn to carry those hard things with us. And that is certainly the endeavor for the bereaved community, but for anybody who has experienced any kind of loss.
[00:05:51] Casey O'Roarty: How did you and your daughter decide to do this together?
[00:05:55] Clarissa Moll: Well, uh, since I have been raising teenagers, I am fully aware that they have a limited interest in hearing from adults. And so when I talked to my publisher about writing a book for teenagers, I felt like, you know, it would be disingenuous. for me to step into that place and be like, Hey, teen, I'm so smart.
[00:06:15] I'm an adult. I have all the answers to all the questions that you have. I am a long time educator taught at the college level and in junior high. And I know that. You really have to earn trust with teenagers before you can speak into their situations. But the amazing thing about teenagers is that they immediately bond with peers, that peer relationships are so important as they're developing autonomy and they're growing adulthood.
[00:06:41] And so when I was faced with this task of writing a book for teenagers. I thought, Hey, who better to partner with me on this than someone who knows what it's like to grieve as a teen? And so I asked Fiona, you know, would you be willing to write a book with me for teenagers by a teenager? And she enthusiastically said yes.
[00:07:01] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thanks to Fiona. What surprised you about working
[00:07:05] Clarissa Moll: together? I was surprised that there was so little tension. You know, moms and daughters through the teen years, it can be like butting heads. But you know, I think that through our grief journey, Fiona and I have learned to communicate really well.
[00:07:20] And it was one of the things that after my husband died, I insisted on that. We're had traveled a lot together. We loved being a screen free household, you know, we're just very kind of used to being off the beaten path a little bit in the way that we ran our family. And so communication had always been core, but I realized in that crisis moment, that if we were going to survive together, the five of us without dad, without husband, we had to maximize those skills in a huge way.
[00:07:52] And so I just doubled down on, communication, communication, communication. And what it did for us was to really open the door to a new equitable kind of relationship as Fiona was moving through her teenage years, which I think ended up bearing fruit when we wrote this book together, that when we had disagreements, we knew how to talk about those things.
[00:08:13] We knew how to bring our own unique ideas. and let them sit in conversation, sometimes in conflict with one another. And so it was really a rich process of seeing the fruit of those years of learning how to talk to one another well.
[00:08:28] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. What, as you worked with Fiona and moved through your own experience, and created this resource, what would you say is something that the average person might not realize about teens and grief?
[00:08:42] You mentioned how they have their foot in adulthood and another foot in childhood and just that wonky space of adolescence. What did you find in your work that you really want to land for the adults about teens and grief?
[00:08:57] Clarissa Moll: That's a great question. And I think for a lot of adults, we come to the grief experience when we connect with teenagers, assuming that they're going to grieve like we do.
[00:09:07] We know that they're older, they're not little kids, so we don't expect the same things of them. And so what we tend to do is actually expect them to grieve more like adults than they do children. And the truth is that That's not the case. On some days, you may have a super deep conversation with your teenager about the future and the hows and the whys, all those, you know, hard questions that really, as adults, we realize we can't answer, that we have to grapple with as we learn to grieve and grow after loss.
[00:09:38] Many times, Teenagers want to be normal. You know, a teenager who hasn't experienced loss, who's going through a sort of stereotypical adolescence, they don't want to stick out. They just want to be normal. They want to go to baseball practice. They want to go to the prom without having to overthink all of these things more than adolescents already overthink things.
[00:10:00] And in so many ways, They want to just be like kids. And so I think, you know, it's one of the things that I always try to encourage families to remember as they're interacting with their grieving teen. Yes, you're going to have deep conversations. Yes, you want to be able to be a safe space for those kinds of conversations to occur.
[00:10:22] But it's just as important that you offer relief from those conversations that you offer opportunities for your kid to just be a kid because with one foot in adulthood and one foot in childhood, there's still a lot of child left in every teenager.
[00:10:40] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I think this happens to all of us that have had experience raising teenagers.
[00:10:45] We do have those days where the depth is right there at the surface. And we feel like, oh, this is where we're at now, until forever. And then the next day is like the toddler tantrum. Lizard brain! Yeah, or like, like you're saying, those very typical teenage experiences that they want to be having. And we're left thinking like, oh, do they, you know, do they just suddenly not care anymore?
[00:11:10] We create so much meaning. That isn't always useful, especially when then we react or respond from that, that place of meaning. And so, as you know, as you think about parents who, you know, are kind of in that whiplash, what would you say to them just to remind them that it is It's an ongoing process with lots of twists and turns.
[00:11:40] Clarissa Moll: I think the biggest thing to remember, and you know, this probably applies to the normal scope of adolescence, is that, you know, as the relationship hierarchy is shifting with parents and teenagers, slowly ever so glacially slowly sometimes becoming our peers and not our underlings in some way. You know, there's not that kind of hierarchy.
[00:12:04] It's changing. Part of what parents can do to be proactive as they interact with their child is to become a student of their child. You know, we're so used to being the teachers. the guides, the people who know more stuff. But when it comes to grief, every single person's journey is a unique one. Yes, there are universal truths that we know, you know, there's no one right way to grieve.
[00:12:31] It's okay to cry. You know, you don't have to have this wrapped up after one year. You know, there are certain things that we know to be true, universally true across the grieving experience. But beyond that, Your journey is your journey, and most parents are best served when they sit at their child's feet, so to speak, and say, Tell me what it's like.
[00:12:53] What's it like to be a grieving teenager and how can I serve you? Because I actually don't know what it's like to be a grieving teenager. I mean, I was blessed personally that my grandparents lived into my young adulthood. They saw their great grandchildren born. I did not suffer the death of a person who was close to me as a teenager.
[00:13:14] So, for me to parent my child well through grief in the teenage years really requires that they become my teacher in this and guide me through the experience, even as I'm there as scaffolding and support for them.
[00:13:28] Casey O'Roarty: I so appreciate that, Clarissa. I think it's so respectful of the teenager, which is a time of life that doesn't get a lot of respect.
[00:13:38] It's true. I remember when my husband was Diagnosed and we chose intentionally to stay very open and very direct with the kids and you know, would make sure to ask them or to let them know if you have any questions, we're always here to talk about it. We kept them up on the latest things that were happening and I think there's a really powerful message that we send when we won like you're talking about when we don't assume that we know how they're experiencing their experiences.
[00:14:13] And also from our perspective in our household, what we also were saying, hey, we believe that you can handle this. Right. And we're here. We can handle it. We can hold the space that you need to ask whatever you need to ask or to experience any emotion that you might be experiencing. I think, you know, do you find in the conversations that you've had with parents?
[00:14:36] I wonder. if it feels like, are there ideas around like, well, if the kids aren't bringing it up, then I don't want to bring it up.
[00:14:47] Clarissa Moll: Yeah.
[00:14:47] Casey O'Roarty: And how do we navigate that?
[00:14:49] Clarissa Moll: So one word that was given to me early on after my husband died, a dear person in my life said to me, you are now the gatekeeper for your family.
[00:14:58] And I love that term gatekeeper because really, I think that encapsulates so beautifully how parents who are helping teenagers. navigate loss can function in their child's life. I am the gatekeeper for my child. So that means that I need to ask two very important questions. What does my child want to know?
[00:15:19] And what does my child need to know? I am the gatekeeper of information. I'm going to protect my child as much as I'm able to from outside forces that would not allow him or her to grieve in a normal and natural and healthy way for a teenager, but I'm also going to be there. has a supportive information source for them.
[00:15:39] So to your question, you know, your child may not want to know all about the last days of grandpa's life and that's okay. If they are not interested in the details, that's okay. Your job is to say, okay, what does my child want to know and what do they need to know? Do they need to know? all of the details.
[00:16:01] Maybe there are some details that are very important for closure, for a sense of clarity. Clarity is always kindness. That is important, but I don't want to overlay my needs on my child's needs, and I don't want to lay on adult responsibilities. adult burdens onto my child. We know that through a lot of research, research that children and teenagers who are called upon to enact in adult ways in their grief, it ends up coming out sideways in early adulthood.
[00:16:35] Uh, that placing adult responsibilities on teenagers when they can't handle them, when those bones are just not strong enough to bear up under that weight is actually really bad for them. So as gatekeepers, we are very carefully saying, okay, think this is the information that you need. Stop me if I'm telling you too much.
[00:16:53] I trust your wisdom that you're going to say, Hey mom, I don't want to talk about this anymore. And I will honor that. I will also be close enough to know when I have to push and say, Hey buddy, I know you don't want to talk about this, but this is something you need to know. And so it really is about understanding those two questions within relationship.
[00:17:15] And that's a relationship of loving gatekeeping.
[00:17:28] Casey O'Roarty: And what are some of the adult, like you mentioned, kids that are asked to grieve in a more adult way, like what does that look like? What can we be kind of paying attention to as far as avoiding that experience?
[00:17:45] Clarissa Moll: Yeah, I mean there are certain things that we know from research aren't good for children.
[00:17:50] Like teenagers raising. younger siblings. So, you know, mom or dad is so checked out because of grief, it's so overwhelming that the older sibling is having to raise the younger ones. And that is, by raise, I mean the very basics. That's feeding, that's clothing, that's bathing, that is not helping out with the laundry, that's taking on those tasks for the parent.
[00:18:13] We know that those things are psychologically laborious and end up being really damaging for a child. But That is going to look different for every family, depending on what your dynamic was before your person's death. So in our case, you know, my husband from the very beginning, when our boys were little, he would have them help clean the bathrooms.
[00:18:36] I didn't want them using the cleaning supplies, so I would give them. Spray bottles of water or a vinegar water mixture and they'd have their microfiber club or a cloth and they'd be helping daddy clean the bathroom. They were doing that from the time they were five and seven because we wanted to instill in them a joy in profitable labor.
[00:18:55] And a job well done. Well, after Rob died, somebody still needed to clean the bathrooms. And so, over time, my boys began to take on more responsibility. Rob had done it beside them, and now they could do it on their own. And it wasn't replacing a task that he had done entirely, but it was really helping them to grow into the responsibilities that would have been theirs as they emerged into their teen years anyways.
[00:19:23] So things like taking out the trash, helping to pick up a younger sibling at school, you know, these are the kinds of things that are normal and natural as growing responsibility and independence grows for a teenager. But it's those responsibilities that really take the place of a parent that we want to be careful to shield our children from.
[00:19:44] Casey O'Roarty: And is it like, I'm doing this because mom can't?
[00:19:47] Clarissa Moll: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:19:49] Clarissa Moll: yeah, I'm, I'm crying with a sibling because mom is emotionally unavailable. I am bathing a younger sibling because dad's never around anymore and somebody's gotta bathe my sister. You know, it's that kind of thing, a real, it's really replacing the parent that we want to be careful to, to shield our children from.
[00:20:08] How old were your kids when you lost your husband? They were 7, 10, 12 and 13.
[00:20:15] Casey O'Roarty: And so Fiona's the oldest. She
[00:20:17] Clarissa Moll: is.
[00:20:17] Casey O'Roarty: Yes. Yeah. So you've got girls and boys. I do.
[00:20:21] Clarissa Moll: I've got two boys and two girls. Yeah, and the the grief journey is different. It is different for different genders and in terms of societal expectations, you know, I don't think fundamentally do boys and girls grieve differently.
[00:20:37] No, we're all human. We all grieve the same except for that. We live in different with different cultural expectations. And so in as much as we live within those expectations, we do see differences in the way boys and girls tend to grieve, but different personalities grieve differently. Different children within the birth order grieve differently.
[00:20:55] It really is a very unique experience.
[00:20:58] Casey O'Roarty: Did you find like in talking to other people or in your own experience? Because I know that as differently and you know, gender conditioning is real and sometimes it has nothing to do with gender and there's kids that close up and go real internal and then there's our kids that are the external processors.
[00:21:19] How do we connect with those kids that are, I realize I'm making an assumption as I say this are avoiding talking and processing. their grief.
[00:21:33] Clarissa Moll: Yeah, I think avoiding is that key word there. And I think that's an important one to kind of parse out. I think that there is danger on either end of the spectrum.
[00:21:42] The child who over shares, might we say, on social media, there's a danger there for that child. Uh, for that child, the conversation needs to be around, how do you steward your story in a way that honors the sacredness of what you have experienced? Who are the trusted people? that you should be sharing this with, and who is not within the circle of trust.
[00:22:03] Because we live in a culture of oversharing, and so for the child who tends to say it all to everyone every time, all the time, in every medium, that's a conversation that needs to happen. We wouldn't necessarily call that healthy or grieving than the child who is totally quiet. For the child who is totally quiet, we need to say, Hey, you know what, you don't need to talk to me.
[00:22:27] In fact, It's normal for you to not want to talk to me about stuff that is really tender and raw in your life when you're a teenager. That's normal parent child relationship at that time. But it is important for you to talk to one trusted adult. We know that children who experience adverse childhood experiences, ACEs, um, they're significantly at risk for all kinds of dangers in their growing up years and into their early adulthood.
[00:22:55] But there's one mitigating factor. It's one trusted adult in a child's life. And so, I am fine if my kids don't want to talk to me. If they seem kind of closed up when I want to start a conversation, as long as I know that there is one other person in their life that they feel like they can talk to, not a peer, but one trusted adult, whether it's a coach, whether it's a youth pastor, whether it's some kind of community leader, a teacher, principal, any person at all, the next door neighbor, you know, any trusted adult that they can share with.
[00:23:30] I'm good with that because we know that it's hard for students to open up when they're teenagers anyways. And so what we're looking for is their ability to reach out for help in those moments. And you know, there are certain signs that we can universally say, this isn't healthy. My child is withdrawing from all kinds of social activities.
[00:23:51] That's a red flag, right? Eating and sleeping changes that are significant and seem to be long lasting. Those are some red flags for us. Beyond the sort of well known red flags that come along with all of adolescent difficulties, there's a wide range of normal when it comes to how students want to communicate about the person that they have lost.
[00:24:14] Mm hmm.
[00:24:15] Casey O'Roarty: And I love that in the first part of your book, You dig really deep into tending to our bodies during the grief process. Talk a little bit about why this was an important place to start for you and Fiona in your book.
[00:24:29] Clarissa Moll: Yeah, you know, I'm reminded of when I used to take all four children. I must have lost my mind when I would take all four children who were under the age of six to Target with me.
[00:24:39] And someone would begin melting down as soon as the cart was full. Of course, that was always how it was. What were the two questions I would ask? to my child who was beginning to melt down. Are you hungry? Are you tired? You go to the base of the tree, you go to those foundational kind of questions.
[00:24:55] Because if I can make sure you're not hungry and you're not tired, all right, well then, you know, if we can cover those two things, chances are we're going to make this situation a lot easier. And the reality is. That's true for all of us. You know, I'm crankier when I haven't had my cup of coffee in the morning.
[00:25:12] I, you know, when I haven't had a good night of sleep, it's harder for me to make good decisions. And the same thing is so true of our teenagers, that in a season where their bodies are rapidly changing, where they need more nutrition, they need more sleep, they need more movement in their lives because of all that's happening physiologically, we shouldn't expect them to be able to weather the storms of grief really well, unless they're first caring for their bodies.
[00:25:36] And so it's an easy place to start because it's so elemental. It's so a part of the normal warp and woof of your everyday life. Making sure your kid has something good to eat. If they don't like dinner, make them something different because we know that grief changes our appetite. Splurge a little bit on the foods that they really like and don't force the asparagus all the time.
[00:25:58] The kinds of things that we did for our toddlers when they were really little, we replicate those in a new and emerging form for teenagers. As they learn to live with their grief because it's a lot of body change and it's a lot of heart change that's going on at the same time.
[00:26:14] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:26:15] Clarissa Moll: And I mean, there are some quick and dirty ways to cope.
[00:26:19] There are. And when we want to help students avoid the quick and dirty ways. Yeah. You know, by and large, we want to avoid that. Now, do we all have our pint of ice cream and our, you know, rom com movie that we need to cry over sometimes? Yes. Yes and amen. I believe in the pint of ice cream as a comfort tool.
[00:26:39] But I don't believe in it as a permanent and long lasting comfort tool, you know, and for students who are at risk for all kinds of things, for online manipulation, for radicalization online, for the isolation that can come with pulling away from friendships, with substance abuse and relationship difficulties, Because we want to make sure that we're going to the base of the tree and feeding those fundamental needs so that we can address some of those higher level ones that are a little bit trickier for us to manage.
[00:27:13] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And what can we be looking out for to differentiate between what is grief and what is unhealthy coping?
[00:27:22] Clarissa Moll: Yeah, it's a delicate question and it's one that I think, you know, I'm always asking as a parent, is he okay? Am I doing everything I should be doing? Should I talk to his teacher to see if everything's okay?
[00:27:36] You know, and that's what I think as a parent. This is why we do this in community, right? Because I want to be able to have a teacher that I can call as a parent and be like, Does he act like this in class? Because he's acting like this at home. Can we corroborate some of this to see if we're getting the same picture here?
[00:27:54] Because, you know, especially for teenagers who are prone to isolation and loneliness in mental health issues that we know are so significant right now, um, having a community helps us to answer some of those questions, and it also gives us resources to be able to say, Hey, you know what? It's not a weird thing to just go to the doctor after your person died because you've got a lot of anxiety about getting sick.
[00:28:20] You know, I hear that a lot with families who have lost a loved one because of illness. Their kids start to get kind of like some hypochondria, what we would consider hypochondria. That's a normal trauma response if you've lost someone that you love. So maybe just showing up to the doctor and being like, Hey, Hey, You know, normal, healthy people go to the doctor when they're not sure they're feeling well, and sometimes all you just need is reassurance.
[00:28:44] So that community of support is both the informal supports, and it's also those teaching children to access those more formal supports. Therapists. the local police officer or school safety officer, doctors, you know, any of those kind of more formal resources of help can be really helpful for our children to see as helpful in years where they might say, well, I'll go to them if I actually really need them.
[00:29:10] Casey O'Roarty: Do you have any? I'm just thinking about my listeners and they love language and conversation starters. You know, what are some go to openers when we see or we feel that that little tap on the shoulder that we need to dig in a little bit with our kiddo? Do you have any thoughts around how to? Open up those conversations with our kids just about what we're seeing.
[00:29:40] Clarissa Moll: Well, I mean, I know how I feel when I'm put on the spot and teenagers are no different, you know, the kind of, Hey buddy, could you just sit in the car an extra couple minutes so we could talk? You know, that's priming you for the walls to go up. Yeah. And so really, if I'm starting to get concerned about a particular thing in my child's life, I'm not going to start right there.
[00:30:04] I'm going to start way, way about a mile away, slow walking it. I'm going to make sure our relationship is good. I'm going to make sure that I know how his or her friends are doing, you know, how they're doing in their classes, the sort of innocuous information gathering that sets the stage for trust so that When I want to kind of move in with my big question, I, it doesn't feel like.
[00:30:32] a big wow moment, a big confrontation. And really, this is the kind of relationship building that is exhausting during grief, but it's so very necessary because you're not going to get to the deep kinds of conversations with your child unless there's a strong bond of trust. that has been established there.
[00:30:51] And, and trust goes both ways. You know, Ira Glass, who is one of the great interviewers of National Public Radio, host of This American Life, he used to say that you had to give a little to get a lot. And the idea was that when you were interviewing someone, you had to share something of yourself. To provoke the kind of intimacy where that person would share with you, and it is exactly the same when we're talking to teenagers.
[00:31:17] If I can share, hey, you know, this has been a struggle for me, I'm more apt to invite vulnerability from my child. And so those are, those are things we slow walk over time. But that kind of investment always pays off.
[00:31:42] Casey O'Roarty: I love that languaging around slow walk and, and yeah, authenticity. I mean, teenagers have really fine tuned bullshit radars. They do. They really do. Yes. Yeah. So I really appreciate that. And, you know, just coming from your own experience of moving through the last What have you learned about, and what can you share with everybody about some of the things that perhaps loving, well meaning people do or say that are less than helpful or supportive?
[00:32:21] And even as it's interesting, I'm saying that and for whatever reason, I'm feeling really emotional about this question because I think we all want to get it right. Yes. Yes,
[00:32:31] Clarissa Moll: we do. And we do want to
[00:32:32] Casey O'Roarty: get it right. Always.
[00:32:33] Clarissa Moll: And I think that when it comes to one another as adults. We really want to do it right.
[00:32:39] We don't want to step in it. We want to say the right things, and we don't want to screw up. But when it comes to saying the wrong things to a child, and by child I mean anyone who is not, you know, under age of 21, there is this extra sense that we are layering on additional sadness. And no kind adult wants to do that.
[00:33:01] Like, I don't want to make it hurt more. Then it hurts right now. And I think we feel an extra burden of responsibility when it comes to kids to say the right thing. The reality is that we are all fumbling our way toward a language of consolation. We really are. Culturally, we are not adept at this kind of language.
[00:33:23] And so I think beginning with that kind of posture is always the best way to start with a teenager. That level of transparency. You know what? I'm afraid that I'm going to say the wrong thing to you, but I just want to tell you that I'm really sorry that your grandmother died. Or I hope this doesn't come out wrong, but I think you're really brave.
[00:33:46] You know, especially those kind of words. It's amazing how even those words of encouragement, you're really brave. I think you're really strong. Grieving people don't feel that way. They feel weak. They feel afraid. And so even the things that we think are compliments can come off as a really painful statement.
[00:34:03] And acknowledging, like, I'm just learning the language here. I am not fluent. And these are the rudimentary words I have to offer you. And you know, when my husband died, I told my kids, you're going to hear a lot of stuff. You're going to hear a lot of stuff that's painful, that's offensive, that you just wonder, did that person think through those words before they let them come out of their mouths?
[00:34:26] And I said, you're going to put them in this bucket, it's like the stupid bucket, and you're just going to put them all in there, all those stupid phrases. And you're going to say every single phrase that went into that stupid bucket is someone's attempt to say, I love you, and I'm really sorry for what's happened to you.
[00:34:42] Because really behind all of the awkward statements that we give, behind all the things that when we walk away, we say, I don't think I should have said that, or maybe I wish I could rewind and say it differently. Behind all of that, I am convinced is a heart of love and not of condemnation. It's a heart of grace.
[00:35:02] and merciful kindness to us in an intense season of vulnerability. And if we are to offer ourselves that level of self compassion, that we don't have to get this all right, I think it behooves us to offer the same level of compassion to other people, that we are just walking each other home in the very best way that we can.
[00:35:23] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. I really appreciate what you said around the pre work with that you did with your kids around, hey, you're going to hear things that are meaningful and you're going to hear things that are less than and, and what to do with that, I think is so powerful in helping our kids make sense of other people, even as they sit inside of their own experience.
[00:35:51] And speaking of that, I think as parents, Anytime we see our kids having a hard time, whether it's with their mental health or friendship drama or being inside of deep grief and loss, it's hard to stay untangled. Yeah. As you know, better than anyone. Uh huh. What are some thoughts that you have around?
[00:36:14] Remaining available and supportive without, my sister recently was like, I just don't want to get in the quicksand. I don't think I'm helpful if I'm in the quicksand with my kiddo. What are some ways that you were able to be with your kid's experience without it adding, I mean, I mean, is there a way without adding to your own?
[00:36:37] experience of pain.
[00:36:40] Clarissa Moll: Well, I think there are a couple of things. First, I like that image of I don't want to get in the quicksand because it's true. If we're all drowning, right? Where is the hope there? There is no hope there. Uh, so we want to make sure that our feet are firmly planted on the banks so that we can actually extend a hand to our child who feels like they're drowning.
[00:37:00] They're stuck in the quicksand. Um, and so that requires We get our feet firmly on the ground, that we are taking care of ourselves in the ways that we need to. Uh, so it means Okay, yes, I need to create an army of support around my child. I need to make sure that he or she has the resources that they need to survive this thing and to thrive again, but I need it, too.
[00:37:26] And if I haven't put on my oxygen mask first, there is no way I'm going to be able to be present to my child. So, you know, there are some rules that we have in our house, like We don't have big and meaningful conversations after 10 p. m. It's just a no. And I know that that is like, you know, earth shattering for teenagers who love to stay up super late and their brains actually turn on at 10 p.
[00:37:50] m. But mine doesn't. And I can't be present and available to you. I cannot keep from tumbling down that hill into the quicksand with you if we're going to start a conversation at 10 p. m. And it's okay to compartmentalize some of those things, to be able to acknowledge where your limits are. and be able to take care of yourself first.
[00:38:08] I think that's the first thing. I think the second thing is to remember what your role is. your child is becoming an emerging adult. They're not yet a peer. You are still the parent and they're still a child. And as such, you have a particular role to play. You have a particular role as it relates to boundaries, as it relates to guidance and helpful limitations.
[00:38:33] You know, for teenagers, one of the best ways to enact that role is to be a good question asker and not a good advice giver. You know, kids will ask for advice when they want it. Most of the time, they just want a listening ear. And I find that when parents start to, as you say, get entangled with their students, they're somehow trying to enter into the quicksand and shovel it out when all their kid just needed to know was That you're paying attention, that you care, that you're sorry for how hard things are.
[00:39:07] Our kids are well aware of our limitations, they're well aware of our inability to fix all of the world's problems. We are often the ones who are unaware of that. And so being a good question asker instead of a good advice giver, remembering what your role is here, I think those things can be really helpful to keep parents from getting entangled.
[00:39:27] Casey O'Roarty: Hmm. I really appreciate that. And I think there's some messaging that we're doing too around, you know, I see you and being able to hold some space and say, I see you in your pain and I'm here and I trust and believe that you were all you and me both are going to move through it without, you know, the alternative of, I better jump right in there with you because you can't handle it.
[00:39:55] Yeah. I think that's such important messaging and it's not even spoken messaging as much as it's the energy that we bring when we stay. And I don't want to use the word distance because I feel like that kind of brings up, I don't know, that feels a little cold, but it also, you know, we have to be able, there has to be some separation.
[00:40:20] And I really, I just recorded an episode, a solo episode about this, but like the whole concept of we're only as happy as our saddest child, like, like, okay, let's just move through the world codependent. You know? I mean. They are on their journey and, and loss and, and experiences that happen in their life is a part of the fabric of their life journey.
[00:40:44] And we're co stars, we're supportive roles. We're not, you know, I mean, sometimes I guess we're, well, no, they're the lead of their own story. That's right. And we want to cultivate
[00:40:56] Clarissa Moll: within them a spirit of resilience.
[00:40:58] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:40:59] Clarissa Moll: That's one of the things that we know through research that today's teenagers are struggling with.
[00:41:04] They're struggling with resilience. And we see this in any number of ways. The need for safe spaces on universities where they're, they're sort of like psychologically safe. Say, from conflicting ideas because students are not used to interfacing with conflicting ideas in college campus classrooms anymore.
[00:41:22] We see it in a number of different ways, culturally, that our students struggle with resilience. And you do not want to push your child into the quicksand and say, Swim. Do it. I believe in you. I'll be here when you get out and get all cleaned up. No, that is not a way to cultivate resilience. You know, previous generations, I think probably the pendulum swung the other way in that direction, where it was sort of pull yourself up by your bootstraps, show how strong you were and push through.
[00:41:51] And we know the ramifications of that kind of philosophy. But also this sort of bubble wrapping our children so nothing bad ever happens to them. That actually creates atrophy for them, emotional atrophy and psychological atrophy, and we don't want that either. We want our children to be resilient. Uh, Lisa D'Amour often says, she's a child psychologist, she often says that we talk about mental health as though mental health meant good.
[00:42:20] feelings all the time. And for a child to have good mental health is not that they have good feelings all the time. It's that they know how to move through the hard feelings. And that's exactly what we're talking about here when it comes to grief. We can't take away grief. We can't make this hard thing go away.
[00:42:37] Your person will always be dead, and you will always miss them in one way or another. But we can teach our child to move and grow within those emotional constraints, to not see them as a prison, but but see them as a prism through which to view a life that flourishes again.
[00:42:55] Casey O'Roarty: Hurt help hope. So this is written for the teenagers.
[00:42:59] That's right. Yeah. So thank you. Is there anything like as far as the book goes that you want to make sure? to bring into this conversation. We talked a little bit about how at the start there's conversations around tending to the body. Is there any other highlights that you want to share with my listeners about the book that's written for kiddos?
[00:43:21] You
[00:43:21] Clarissa Moll: mentioned the idea of modeling language and that was one of the primary purposes that Fiona and I had as we were developing the book. The book is set in a question answer format and it's got questions about all kinds of different things, emotional, spiritual, physical, relational, all the things. And then it has our conversational answers.
[00:43:42] And we are honest about where we don't know an answer to something, but what we wanted to do is kind of model the discourse that we hope that students can begin to have with trusted adults in their lives. And so we've even kind of given you the language. So, you know, if you were a student or if you are a parent and you're trying to figure out how do I talk to my kid about this, how do I talk to my mom about this, uh, or my dad about this or a parent or a teacher, we even give you a script.
[00:44:08] I mean, there's literally, you can use those. I often tell kids, I'm like, try this question on, you know, you see what our answer is now go try this question on your baseball coach. See what he says. And then compare the answers, you know, do a little crowd sourcing. And that engages our kids in the critical reasoning to be able to filter through the messages that they're receiving and, and determine what is right for them.
[00:44:32] And so we're hoping that that question answer format is a really helpful way to interact with content that we might have all these questions rolling around in our heads, but we are not often comfortable saying them aloud.
[00:44:45] Casey O'Roarty: And you and your family have found a lot of healing in your relationship with your spirituality.
[00:44:52] What are the gifts of a relationship with higher power when moving through grief and loss? And how do we encourage our teens? To explore a bigger picture and I'm thinking about my listeners, you know, and I think my listenership is you know, the continuum of spirituality and what that looks like in their household and Yeah, how do we talk about that?
[00:45:17] Clarissa Moll: I love that you asked that question because one of the things that we found to be a glaring hole in teen grief support was questions about spirituality I think that it's hairy to talk about spirituality, religious belief, faith, whatever you want to call it. There are a lot of unanswered questions.
[00:45:37] There's a lot of stuff we take on belief but don't have concrete scientific facts for. And so it's easy to be like, yeah, that stuff doesn't belong in conversations about grief and loss. But the reality is that the death of someone that we love prompts all kinds of existential soul level questions. For every single person, whether or not you are a person who would say, I'm a person of, you know, X, Y, Z faith, you ask questions about the afterlife.
[00:46:05] Is there an afterlife? What happens to this body after it crumbles into dust? You know, I, I go to the cremation of my grandfather and they scattered his ashes in the ocean. Is that it? Is it all over? You know, these are the kinds of questions that are very appropriate and important for our students to ask because what they are indicating is actually a much higher level of critical reasoning and thinking skills.
[00:46:31] These are the kinds of questions we want our students to be asking as they move into adulthood. And so we dedicate an entire section of the book to asking those kinds of spiritual questions because I am less interested in whether you get a sort of concrete chapter and verse answer to your questions about spirituality when it comes to grief.
[00:46:54] I am far more interested that you begin the conversation because we need students who will think deeply. We need adults who will think deeply beyond the material world, into the emotional realm, into the spiritual realm. We need people like that in our society. You know what? If grief prompts those kind of conversations I'm all in and I love that students are asking those questions.
[00:47:21] I think that they can offer real comfort to students who find faith as a place of safe space. I think that they can offer critical conversations with trusted adults, even when faith is not a part of those conversations. So yeah, I'm all in for conversations about spirituality after loss. Well, and it is just,
[00:47:45] Casey O'Roarty: In the room.
[00:47:47] It is in the room. I mean, I've been blessed to be at births, as well as to be there. I had a good friend pass away a couple years ago, and Man, I was with her, you know, the night before and I could feel that straddle. Yes. And it was such a gift and so profound. Yeah. So
[00:48:10] Clarissa Moll: sacred is really the only word. And I think I love how you compare it to birth because there is a beauty.
[00:48:16] in birth, uh, that we hold that liminal space and we say, Oh, my gosh, how is this even possible that this just happened? You know, we're in awe, right? And wonder. And we can approach death with that same awe and wonder. Yeah, that's okay. That is totally fine. If we do it at the beginning, you know, from womb to tomb, we can do this.
[00:48:37] And I think it just shows that we're whole people. We are whole people, and we honor the whole person. We honor the whole person when that person dies, through talking about the love that remains after death. And we honor ourselves when we acknowledge all the parts of us that we bring to the grieving process.
[00:48:55] Casey O'Roarty: Thank you so much, Clarissa, for sharing your story and for the work that you're doing. The last question that I ask all my guests is, what does joyful courage mean to you?
[00:49:08] Clarissa Moll: To me, joyful courage is doing it scared. You know, there's a lot of like sort of faith over fear, you know, I kind of attitude that's popular and memes and things like that.
[00:49:21] But to me, joyful courage is a posture of hopefulness that says I'm going to do it scared and that's okay because my softness is gift. My weakness is a gift and each day is a gift. And so I bring all of my whole self to whatever I face, knowing that I face it. not in a sort of inner fortitude that I have to drum up, but in an honest and authentic acknowledgement of all of who I am.
[00:49:49] Casey O'Roarty: Where can people find you and your book and follow your work?
[00:49:53] Clarissa Moll: Sure. You can find me at clarissamall. com. I hang out on Instagram. I love to connect with readers and listeners there. It's a great place to find community, especially if you're beginning the grief journey and it's hard to find people locally.
[00:50:06] I found online to be a great place of comfort for me when I was initially grieving and I love to hang out in those spaces and people can find more about my books there.
[00:50:16] Casey O'Roarty: Okay.
[00:50:16] Clarissa Moll: Thank
[00:50:16] Casey O'Roarty: you. We'll make sure all of those links are in the show notes listeners. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.
[00:50:22] Thank you.
[00:50:29] Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you so much to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana, as well as Danielle. And Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting this show out there and helping it to sound so good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay better connected at besproutable.
[00:50:54] com. Tune back in on Monday for a brand new interview and I will be back solo with you next Thursday. Have a great day.
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