Eps 52: Sarah MacLaughlin and I talk Race, Privilege and Parenting for a Better World

Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful courage parenting podcast episode 52

Hey parents, welcome back to the joyful courage parenting Podcast. I'm so grateful that you're here, my regular listeners, thank you again and again and again for continuing to tune in and listen to what's happening here on the podcast, and if you are a new listener, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm so glad that you're here and that you're taking the time to check out the show. So yay. I am Casey. I am your host for this little bit of your journey, and today I'm really looking forward to sharing the show with you. I have Sarah McLaughlin back on. You'll remember Sarah from back, way back, Episode 30, she came on and talked about setting limits. It was a fabulous conversation. And got, I got great feedback around. So if you're listening to this and you think, Oh, I like this lady, which you will just know you can scroll back to Episode 30 and listen to her talk some more. So today, Sarah and I are going to talk about some of the writing that we've been doing lately, around current events, around the Black Lives Matter movement, white privilege, and just what it means to raise our kids in a way where they truly get The whole idea of treating people with equal dignity and respect. And Sarah and I are both white moms raising white kids. And funny enough, we both live in pretty insular white communities. She's from Maine, you'll hear her talk about that. I live in rural Washington state, and for me, I, you know, I wrote a an article last week around my thoughts of being a white, middle class mom and and just kind of pulling back the veil around the way that white privilege shows up in our life and the discomfort that I have when I take a really hard, honest look At the experiences and the relationships that my kids have, and how a lot of the you know, the kind of subtle ways that white culture is so dominant and really works towards creating that us and them mentality, or can create that us and them mentality. So Sarah and I are going to dig into all that and into the discomfort that, you know, the white community, and we can only really speak for ourselves. Okay. So, you know, what we find is discomfort around not wanting to offend, um, and just, I mean, listen, I can't even introduce the show without feeling like, Oh, God, am I saying the right thing. So anyway, I'm really excited to share this conversation, and I'm so grateful that Sarah came on to talk with me, and I hope that as you listen, you think about, you know, the places in your life where I know that my my audience is primarily white parents, primarily moms. Hi, and not all of you and but a lot of you. And so what are your thoughts like? What is, what are you thinking about right now? What are you thinking about the world around you? And how are you making an effort in raising your kids in a way that there won't need to be a Black Lives Matter movement when they are happy, healthy, functioning adults. How are we raising our kids to make a better world? Yeah, and if you are a person of color who's listening in on this podcast, what are we missing? Like, where please point it out and let us know. You know, because, like I say in the podcast, in the conversation, you'll hear, I am blind to my blindness. We are all. We don't know what we don't know. And you know it's it's important for other people to say, Yeah, you know, when you said that, this is how it made me feel, especially when it feels offensive, it feels bad. I want people to point that out, because my intention is never to hurt anybody else, or to marginalize or to, you know, promote the things in our culture right now that are marginalizing people. So when it's happening and I'm unaware of it, I want people to call me out on it. Yeah, deep thoughts, right? Heavy subject, but I think that you'll really enjoy the conversation and find you know your own answers as you listen, and you know, probably be left with some questions. So let's, let's keep talking about this, all right, and and I'm just really grateful again that you're listening, and so let's get on with it. You.

Hey, Sarah, welcome back to the podcast.

Sarah MacLaughlin 5:05
Thank you. I'm

Casey O'Roarty 5:07
so happy to be here and listeners, you'll remember Sarah from Episode 30, when we talked about setting limits. That seems like a long time ago. Yeah. Please remind everybody who's out there about what you do. Sarah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 5:21
I like to call myself a compassion coach, also Child Behavior decoder and a warrior for kindness. I work with families around education and support,

Casey O'Roarty 5:34
awesome and you have, and you are a family you're a part of I am. I am part

Sarah MacLaughlin 5:38
of a fam, part of a multiple generational family, just like everybody else, right? Yep, I have an eight year old, and I'm a social worker. I live in beautiful state of Maine,

Casey O'Roarty 5:49
beautiful so I'm really glad that you're here. I invited you back on the show to have a conversation about what is alive right now in our world and all over the place, racism, white privilege, how to parent our kids in a way that fosters love, connection and acceptance, not to mention dignity and respect for all humans. And you know, listeners you may have, if you follow me, you will have seen, possibly, the article that I wrote in response to what was happening around what is happening around the country, and just my own discomfort is so not the right word, but my own wiggly on, you know, discomfort around the fact that, you know, I'm a white mom raising white kids in a multicultural world, yet our immediate world is not so multicultural, and while I parent in a way that models dignity and respect for my kids, we don't have a lot of experiences and relationships with people outside of our own white middle class situation, basically, and just recognizing that that matters, sure, right? That that matters. And you've written a couple articles recently in response to the stuff that happened at Stanford and Orlando, and with more of a focus around the how you know how to, how to hold, yeah, be inclusive. Hold space in our homes to where it's all okay. What are your thoughts about the responsibility of parents raising kids today? That's not a big question or anything.

Sarah MacLaughlin 7:33
Which time do you have Casey? Yeah, it's, it's, so it's, it's, there's so much to unpack here, right like and unpacking is the right word. That's the word that Peggy McIntosh used when she talked about the invisible knapsack of privilege. I believe that that document she created is over 25 years old, which is a little embarrassing. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 7:59
I read it when I was in teacher school in 1998 that was part of the required reading. I will make sure there's a link to it in the show notes everyone. It's a really powerful, so important.

Sarah MacLaughlin 8:11
So, yeah, I mean, that would be the first thing that I would want to talk about, is that there's a lot of there's a lot of privileges that are named explicitly in that document that help, I think, hope, hopefully, help white people to, you know, understand that this has been happening, and there is sort of an awakening that happens in there. There is often embarrassment or shame, or, you know, uncomfortable feelings that come up for white people when it is shown, when the veil is peeled back, and if you've been living in a white bubble. And you know, because everything in our culture is presumed to be white, and everything that's not is presumed to be other, you know, that can be really uncomfortable and embarrassing when you kind of get that, that is the world that you've been blithely navigating along with no, you know, attention or anything to other people's experience, because it's not done intentionally. And I think that that's the first piece, is to understand that you aren't, you aren't blind on purpose, like it's truly the word, the root of the word ignorance, you know, it's like you're just ignorant to it as a fact, and that it's a healthy step to move through that discomfort and see how different other people's experiences are and and stop talking and listen. I think that's one of the biggest pieces, is to stop talking and listen. But if you live in a you know, I live apparently, according to you know, acquaintance of mine who writes a blog called Black Girl in Maine, here in Maine, Maine is the whitest state in the country, which is a little bit shocking, but according to recent demographics, it's very, very white here. There's not a lot of people of color. There's not a lot of diversity. Right in the culture, and it is really easy to end up in a bubble where you're not, or you would like to tell yourself, it's easy to end up in a bubble where you're not interacting with people you know, who aren't, who don't look like you. But there's also needs to be a recognition that that is potentially where you're most comfortable, and that it might feel uncomfortable to to branch out and have your social circle circle look different or be a little wider. I know I'm probably not answering any of your questions, but just talking out loud, you know? And that's what this

Casey O'Roarty 10:30
that's what this show is about. It's just two ladies that work with families and are having deep thoughts, right, important thoughts, and it's an important conversation. I think that you're right and and because it's uncomfortable, I think there's been a history in the white community of not talking about it. And so, you know, one of the things that I did just this morning with my son, I was taking him to camp, and he's been really, he's been interested in listening to the news for the first time ever, and I've been willing to have it on when it gets uncomfortable more often. He's 10, and we've been talking about the things that are happening. And I guess the as I was trying to help make sense of the privilege piece, you know, the fact that he was born a white male, that, in and of itself, puts him in a super, a certain level of privilege. And so the way that, you know, the the way that I was trying to explain it to him was, you know, imagine that it's that you, you know, it's you and one other boy, and the other boy is black, and somebody says, I have $100 to give you to start your own lemonade stand or start your own business. I'm going to give you $70 you white kids, $70 and I'm going to give get this kid $30 and so go. I said, so you have the opportunity to say, Hmm, wow, this friend of mine has a lot less than I do. I could make it so that we each had $50 or you can choose to record to say, hey, 70 bucks, sweet. I can really get things going with this and carry on like, you know. And is that okay? Is it not okay, you know? And that was just like, just want my own imperfect way of starting the conversation with my 10 year old in a way that would make sense to him,

Sarah MacLaughlin 12:27
or begin to make trading, yeah, yeah, uneven playing field, like for no reason other than the fact that your skin is white, we're going to hand you an advantage and and you presented it in a way where it was really obvious that it was An advantage. And I think that that's the tricky piece about white privilege, is that for many, many people, it's not perceived it's just literally invisible and not perceived that way, even though we know that it's true, and once the veil has been lifted, it's it's very obvious and very, you know, easy to see at that point, but that because it's in the dominant culture, and it just kind of like lulls us to sleep, and it's passed on from generation to generation, and there's so much implicit bias. This is a new sort of

term that I've learned in the last few years. And Harvard has multitude of implicit bias bias tests, and they've created this ingenious way through a very short computer test of being able to assess the biases that you have that you don't know about about any swath of the population. So there's one about women, there's one about people of color, there's one about, you know, homosexual people, you know, there's, like a whole, a whole plethora of them that you can see what you unconsciously believe, that you don't even know, that you unconsciously believe. And the first time I took it about black people, I was horrified. Yeah, that makes my gut hurt, completely horrified. And you know, whenever I get into an art because I will just get, you know, take people to task. If they are like, all lives matter or white privilege doesn't exist, I just kind of like, please go take this test and tell me that you don't have bias that you are not aware of and but, you know, some people don't see, some people don't want to see. So I'll just leave it at that, but, but for people who do, it's right there in front of you, and you can't walk away from it after that, because it's incredibly clear that, you know, and I say it's in the water, you know, like it's in the water of our culture, to be biased against people who don't look like us, and that white people are in most of the positions of power in our culture, and that's a problem, right? Yeah, and that, that, in and of itself, is a. Problem that we should be aware of, that we should be talking about, that we should be making strides to change.

Casey O'Roarty 15:06
And I think like that whole statement, you know, and it's not because White, typically white men, are the most qualified to be in those places of power. It's simply because, well, not simply take that word out so much of it is because the institutions, the big institutions of our country, work against anyone else who's, you know, who's falls into these marginalized categories. And I was just listening to, I love, there's this podcast called another round, and it's two women. Have you heard of them? I haven't, no. So it's two women from New York City, two African American women from New York City, and it's, you know, their audience is, I think, primarily African Americans. And they are. They're, first of all, they're so smart and they're so funny, and they are so blunt about the cluelessness of white people, so clueless, right? And sometimes, and that can be, I think there probably are people that listen to it and get really turned off because of that, because it puts them in that place of like, Oh, am I like that? Or oh, they're just bashing on all white people. But really they're not. And they were talking about the different just today and, well, not today, but a podcast that I was listening to today, they were talking about the difference between money and wealth, and how there are a rich being rich, and being wealthy, and being rich is having a lot of money. Being wealthy is having something to pass on to future generations. And while they're, you know, and that's really a white thing, right? Just, just, I know, like the safety net. And I know that if anything were to happen, my family would step in and make sure that we were okay. Sure, you know, and, and, and I fully recognize that that is a gigantic privilege that I get to live with, and I can choose to be uncomfortable with it or not. I've spent, you know, many a therapy session on being uncomfortable with it, but it is just what it is. I also, you know, feel as though using the platform that I have to have these kind of conversations is kind of my Well, here's where I can make a difference, and here's where I can start some conversations about about the this stuff, right? Yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 17:24
well, and I think that one of the things that you said a little bit ago about being uncomfortable really plays into the work that we do with parents, is that, you know, I think that it's really important, just generally speaking, in interactions that you have with your children every day, and this is part of the work that I'm sure we both do around emotional intelligence and boundaries, is that it's not inherently bad to feel uncomfortable, and that there's not something that you need to do about it immediately. Whether the discomfort is you have a splinter in your toe or you're hungry, or your sister's bothering you, or whatever it is like. I think that it can be an issue or a problem that you know we as parents, from the day our children are born, I know I have this problem. I want my baby to be comfortable. I want them to be feel safe and secure and comfortable, and they're not the same thing. And I think that's an important differentiation to make, because I feel like the way that a lot of us have been parented, and maybe how we even have continued to parent our own children, is to equate safety and comfort, and they're very different, and I can be perfectly safe and still feel really, really uncomfortable, emotionally, physically, whatever. And I think that the position that we are in at this point in time as white people is that we need to lean into that discomfort. We need to be okay with that, I mean, and some of the really great language that is being put out, you know, like the term white fragility, you know, as soon as I heard that, I was like, Oh, yep, that makes total sense. Like, you know, and I know that it pushes people's buttons, and people, you know, and there's so much defensiveness, you know, people get really defensive. Like, well, so, so what if I'm not middle class? What if I wasn't raised with wealth? What if I was raised poor, and, you know, I went to school with a black kid who was wealthy. Like, okay, you know, that's besides the point, right? You know, like, yes, you're

Casey O'Roarty 19:26
still more privileged. I mean, it's still, there's you're still higher up the ladder, yeah, just from the start being born white,

Sarah MacLaughlin 19:33
the hierarchical, you know, system that we live in, you know, needs to be acknowledged. And the fact that all of those, that racism is built into all of our structures, and, you know, yeah, it we think I have this thing about time, and the perception of time that we, you know, we think that, you know. Equal Rights Amendment was passed so long ago. And we think that, you know, segregation and racism and Jim Crow and all these things ended so long ago. But given the history that we have here, that was actually just like not very long ago, that was really, that was really recent, you know, it's, you know, on a similar topic, this topic of sexism as opposed to racism. But you know, my parents went through a divorce in the 70s, and my mom had a really hard time getting a credit card for herself because it was not done. You signed up for a credit card with your husband or you didn't get one. And I'm like, that was just 40 years ago. That's crazy. Yeah. You know, things have been changing really rapidly, and I think that that helps me too, as someone who wants to be a change maker and an activist, is because I start to feel really impatient. I'm like Peggy wrote this thing 25 years ago, 30 years ago. Why haven't we moved, you know, an inch and to see like, well, you know, in some ways we've been moving really slowly, but in some ways, a lot of change has happened very quickly. And so giving people the space to to be with that and feel it and and just listening, oh my gosh, I could not promote listening any harder.

Casey O'Roarty 21:10
Yeah, well, and one of the things that I feel like, okay, here's a place where I can, you know, because I Well, there's many things, but here a place where I can really feel as though we're moving towards just trying to help my kids see their own privilege is, you know, being conscious about creating authentic experiences and relationships with all different types of people. And if I'm being fully honest, there's also this part of me that's like, oh, gosh, so what is that? Like? What is that? What does that mean? And if it's authentic, and I live in a really, I mean, I live in small town, Washington State, like, similar, you know, Maine, it's pretty white. I mean, we have a Hispanic population here, and the two cultures do not really cross paths very much, other than, you know, in the middle school and the high school. But as far as, like, families mingling, it just really doesn't happen very much. So, you know, I'm thinking, I'm online, and I'm like, where are there, like, multicultural festivals, and like, you know, I

Sarah MacLaughlin 22:17
know that feels like you're like, fishing for it, is, yeah, and then it starts to feel kind of funky because you're doing that. And yes, it's yeah. It's not just presenting itself as some sort of ease, easy thing, but I think it's going to be uncomfortable. And I also think that, you know, there is that nobody wants to be our token black friend, either, like nobody wants to be our token Hispanic friend, or whatever, you know, there's, and it's, and that's part of, part of the thing that we want to talk about and look at is like, why are our culture still so segregated? You know, unless you're really in a big city, which, you know, I had the delight of living in a big city for a long period of time, and my friend group was so much more diverse. And I really, really miss that, and I it does feel harder when you live in a place where there's just not the population density to have that kind of innate diversity to your experience, you know? And it it, um, that's a place where it feels like we have moved very slowly, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 23:19
Well, I was talking to my sister in law about this. She teaches in a school south of Seattle, and it's very super diverse school. And her kid, she's got a eight year old and a five year old, and they live down south to south, well, South Seattle, and they're in a and her kids go to school with in a really diverse school, and we were talking about it how, you know, walking down the street and seeing a woman walk by in a hajib doesn't really, you know, it's not a big deal to her kids, like they see that it's true. Whereas my kids, hopefully, they'd be graceful about it, but they would be like, Whoa, did you see that lady? Right? Because it's just like, wow, we don't see that, yeah, which, like, even those words coming out of my mouth make me don't know, like, gag, right? We don't see that. And yet, I, you know, I'm and, you know, at the same time, I'm making every effort to always look people in the eye always, you know, stopping and talking to people, you know. And really, I mean, this is not a race thing, but my son got his ears pierced, and when we walked in, we went to a place in like, the U district in Seattle. It's really eclectic, by the way, we parked the car. My my daughter's like, are we in a different country? Like, no, not just in the U district. So, yeah, right. I'm like, Oh my God, you are so short. But we walk in and the woman working the counter, you know, is just covered in tattoos and piercings in places I didn't even realize you could pierce and really big holes in her ears. And she was the. Nicest lady, of course, she was super nice. And I was just chatting it up. And in my mind, I was thinking, I am so glad that my kids are witnessing this conversation, and just seeing like this is just another human being who's into stuff that we're not so hardcore into. And inside of all of this piercing and tattoos is just another person, right? And so that was an experience that I was able to facilitate for them. And then so as far as, like, looking for opportunities, you know, to mingle more, I guess we could go into Seattle more. Hello, sure you know. I know that there are all sorts of cultural festivals that happen in the city. And looking for opportunities to go and mingle and be in conversation with people and give so that, so that, when there is the woman walking down the street in the hajib or whatever, you know, the kids can be like, Oh, look, we've met people like that. We know about, which is still, I just said people like that, like, ew, God,

Sarah MacLaughlin 25:59
so hard. Our language is so divisive. You know, it's set it's set up to be divisive. And, you know, it's tricky. It's a really tricky thing. I had a thought earlier, but then I lost it. Shoot, shoot, shoot, well,

Casey O'Roarty 26:19
and in your I'll just bring us around to one of your articles, one of your articles we wrote to and I'll make sure that the links to them are in the show notes. But one of them, you are they. You both. They both kind of say the same thing. One just goes a little bit deeper than the other specific, yeah. But I really appreciate just that concept of race, lifestyle choices, gender, having conversations at like, what the whole word like, the normal world, what's normal, right? Can you talk a little bit about what you wrote about that, and just, you know, right?

Sarah MacLaughlin 26:53
Well, sort of like, whenever there's a dominant paradigm in place, there's going to be a lot of push that needs to happen against it to get it to give, you know, and this the idea that white, straight, cis, you know, male, female binary is what's quote, normal is hurting us Like that's hurting us to have that perspective, and that changing that perspective is work that we each as individual people, need to do, and that we can help facilitate that it's so much easier if you learn to have that wider lens or a different paradigm from the time you're a little and like I used to teach preschool, and one of the things that was sort of an aha for me is that we would always, we would always try to create, what I learned was called the anti bias classroom. So we tried to have, you know, represent as much diversity as possible without doing this thing. That's kind of like the, you know, oh, if we have a kid who has gay parents, then we'll have the gay books in our room, you know, or if we have a black kid or this kid or that kid, you know, labeling every then we'll have this, you know, vast representation so they feel at home, so they don't feel other. But really, what creates an anti bias classroom is that even in our whitewashed, you know, even in the schools and classrooms where everybody is of that, you know, more dominant paradigm, or whatever, you should still have all of those materials. You should still be we and we shouldn't be, you know, just kind of shopping along for the, you know, ways to represent who's in the classroom that you know, we really want to be talking about how, like, some people are gay, some people are straight, just from day one. That's just the way of the world. You know, the ratios and the percentages don't matter, and it's, it's something that doesn't occur to you unless, I mean, I just hope we're getting to the point where everybody like, it used to be like, because people were so, I mean, we're, I'm kind of switching to homophobia now, but, you know, people didn't talk about being gay unless they knew someone who was gay well. And then you, of course, you talked about it, and then obviously everybody knows someone gay now, right? Like, is that how it's going to get to be with, say, people who are trans or people who are non gender conforming that? Like, right now, people are like, what's that? You know? But eventually everybody's just gonna know somebody who's trans or who's non gender conforming, and it won't be a big deal, which is a separate, a separate thing from, from racism, actually, obviously, yeah, but you know, there's just ways to make that non non threatening to kids, because what the thing that I think is really helpful for parents to think about is that it's normal for kids to notice differences, and that it's our discomfort with talking about it because we don't have practice talking about it that makes us kind of funny when it comes up. Mm. I have an article I wrote a while ago that I'll send you about, you know, the first time my four year old was like, I don't like black people. And I was like, If it breaks, but I'm I'm also like, not wanting him to hear that screech in my head, right, right? Because I don't want to be like, What are you talking about? Oh, I don't want to respond with all of my like, you know, bottled up junk that's mine, because I've been digging through it and trying to get more, you know what I mean, like, so I just like, was, breathe, breathe. Oh, really, what makes you say that, you know? Like, listen, get more information, you know, you know. And they just sort of like, not in a non triggered way, dropping the dropping the nuggets around like, oh, it's actually, really not something that humans should do to judge other people by the way that they look, whether it's their skin color or how able they are, or, you know, or other aspects about them, you know, you know, that's not that's not cool. So I'm gonna tell you that that's not cool, but, but we have to be cool when we're talking about it, because there's nothing that kids will dial into quicker than if we're agitated or, like, really hopped up about something and we want them to take it in. Because they're, like, wait a minute, what is going on here? They just are dialed right into any of that anxiety that we have or or that we want to shut it down, you know, like, when we have, oh, I have, you know, kids just notice differences, so they talk about them. And then sometimes grown ups, who have the best of intentions, are like, oh, you know, everybody's the same. We don't see color, you know, love everyone. And that's actually really not helpful,

Casey O'Roarty 31:38
right? Let's talk a little bit about that, about that not being helpful. It's so not helpful

Sarah MacLaughlin 31:46
because of centuries of structural, institutionalized racism that lives and breathes in our country. Our country was built on the backs of slaves, and that is a true reality that we can't get away from, and we may, as grown ups need a process through our grief about that. I find that very upsetting, you know. And there's, there's work I have to continue to do to to feel my grief about that like that is horrifying to me. And, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 32:13
well, and my people came from the south, the Wilsons, uh huh, are from Virginia, yep, and that. And so I'm with you on that it is and it's horrifying,

Sarah MacLaughlin 32:24
it's terrifying, and it's awful, and and, and we've gotten so far away from it that it feels, it feels not real. But you know, any account that you read, any anything that I bumped up against in, you know, Malcolm Gladwell, who's, you know, biracial, has written so many amazing books. But in one of his books, he talks about his REL, you know, his slave ancestors, and some of the, just some of the absolutely horrifying, like we think, all of this terrorism is new. No, this terrorism is old. These horrifying ways of humans treating each other are really old and really awful, and I find that totally heartbreaking. But that's not helpful to put on our little, small kids who are just like, what's going on in the world we want to you know, they're just soaking it all in and learning from what's going on. It's so much more helpful for us to process through our big feelings that we might have about that, and then be able to present them with with, you know, a little bit more distilled understanding or framework, or like, Hey, this is how people have, you know, thought about it for a really long time. And that's that needs to change. We're part of that change. We're having these kinds of conversations, is part of that change. And it's, I talked to a friend of mine who's biracial, whose daughter is also biracial, obviously, and about this incident where my son said, I don't like black people. And he was like, you know, my daughter, who's part black, has said the exact same thing to me. You know, it's, it's so internalized too. Just like women have internalized sexism, you know, we have all these ways in which we hold ourselves to these crazy standards, and if we stop and examine the the the narrative that's going on in on our heads, we're like, wait a minute, where did that come from? Yeah, I actually believe that that's insane, you know. So there's a lot of inner a lot of inner work that needs to happen. I got totally off track from that's okay.

Casey O'Roarty 34:24
So the whole idea of, like, colorblind and colorblind, or we're all the same, I would say, like a counter. Something to say instead would be, you know, everybody is a human being worthy of, of being treated with dignity and respect. And we all have our own stories.

Unknown Speaker 34:45
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 34:55
yeah, absolutely, because I feel like and I heard somewhere somebody talking or read something like the whole color. Blind art argument, really, kind of, you know, the problem with it is it totally negates, like, you know, all the cultural background of it of another person.

Sarah MacLaughlin 35:11
Of course, absolutely. And just because, you know, you know, I mean, I'm, like, a total mutt. My great grandparents were all immigrants from, like, you know, Eastern Europe and the other part of Europe. And so I don't, I don't have a lot of strong connection to my cultural history, and that's a that's a thing that's that can be confusing for people. And, yeah, I guess the other thing about being colorblind is that it's just not true. Like we do see color, we do see differences. We do notice those things, be it that somebody has a whole bunch of tattoos, or that their, you know, hairs looks different, or whatever, their dress, their, you know, we notice differences that, yeah, that's okay, and that we and that we should embrace them and be curious about them and celebrate them, that there's no reason to be to try to change that, I guess.

Casey O'Roarty 36:10
Yeah. Well, art, my story is being in Lowe's with my then, like, three or four year old son saying, Whoa, she's got a big butt.

Sarah MacLaughlin 36:20
Yeah, yeah. Children notice weight differences, which is, like, you know, really not something, yeah, we

Casey O'Roarty 36:27
all come in different shapes and sizes. Let's go buy this tool or whatever. Oh my gosh, yeah. And

Sarah MacLaughlin 36:33
that we're and, like, owning our own embarrassment, that that's, you know, kids are really honest, and they do notice differences, you know? Yeah, I think that it's better to acknowledge that obviously, than to try to pretend it's not true, like that's just crazy. Yeah, right, we're gonna pretend it's not true, yeah, pretend we don't see color and differences. That's nuts. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 36:55
that's a lie. And we're always and they're always watching and they're always listening. So as the adult in the relationship, you know, really being honest about what we're modeling through, through our conversations, through our interactions, how they see us treat, you know, the checker at the store versus, you know, I don't know who else, like, there are teachers or people in the community, you know, they're always watching and and I think too that, you know, I think that white parents get so uncomfortable with being worried about saying the wrong thing that they so they don't say anything right. And that's a disservice to our kids. And I think that even, you know, even kids that are pretty young can understand, like, I don't know the best way to to talk about this, but what are your questions? What are you noticing about on the playground? Or what do you notice, you know, and really being curious about letting their kids lead the conversation, I think can be really helpful as well, because they can kind of take us in the direction of where perhaps we need to go.

Sarah MacLaughlin 38:04
Yeah, absolutely. I just when you were talking about the playground, it reminded me of a friend of mine did a really useful thing that is similar to what you were talking about with your 10 year old, of saying, hey, well, what if I gave you 70 and him 30? You know, that was a perfect 10 year old scenario. But offering those kinds of scenarios that help children understand, you know, inherent privilege can be done at from like, you know, toddler up, or preschool up, you know, she had done a similar thing with her child about being at the playground, and just said, you know, well, what, what, what would you think, or what, how would you feel? Or what would your reaction be if I told you that, you know you like coming to this playground, but you know somebody, the powers that be, came in and said, You know only children who have white skin, or only children who have blue eyes, or only children who have you know, whatever is going to help the child relate. You know only they were going to get to use the playground and and you know these other kids weren't going to or they could only come one day a week, and you could come the rest of the days of the days of the week. Like, what would you think about that? And so like helping children develop those like critical thinking skills and questioning authority in a healthy way, like being able to speak up for injustice and unfairness, those are all things that can be taught in a million different contexts that then you can relate them back to as they grow and become more and more aware of the larger landscape of what's going on. Will you

Casey O'Roarty 39:31
just write the manual? Please? Sure. Well, and you know, and it's not when I think about like the Black Lives Matter movement, it's not a it's not a black movement. I mean, it's a movement for all of us to be really, being being honest, not being afraid, to speak up and just like, like you and I have done in our writing, and I've seen lots. Of people do, people that aren't bloggers, people that aren't writers, even just really long, heartfelt Facebook posts from people. I have a friend of mine from high school who's married to a black man and has, I think, two or three children, and you know, she just, she wrote this really eloquent, lovely post about, you know about how she feels and the facts. And somebody else wrote something about I had no idea about my privilege until I, you know, got into a relationship and now have a multiracial family, and I'm scared for my kids. Yep, so you know, for the listeners out there, I say take this conversation to your playdates, and take this conversation to your schools and your parks. And just don't be afraid to say, you know, I'm feeling uncomfortable, or, Hey, what

Sarah MacLaughlin 40:49
do you guys think about this? And I listen to this great podcast conversation, or whatever. Like talking about, yes, yes. Part of it is just like, we're smart, we're dynamic, we're creative species. If we put our mind to the problem, it can't be even if it's uncomfortable. Putting our mind to the problem is got to be so much better than just burying our heads in the sand, right? Like it's, you know, and part of it is, you know, recognizing because once you, like, I said, kind of like, once you wake up, you can't go back to sleep. And even if you do miss the opportunity to speak up when somebody is being racist or sexist or homophobic, it will not or general

Unknown Speaker 41:32
asshole,

Sarah MacLaughlin 41:35
but it won't go quietly, like you won't be able to stay my experiences, I won't be able to stay asleep. So you know, there might have been the first couple times that somebody made a comment, a racist comment, in front of me after, you know, not that I ever really put up with that, like I remember calling people out in high school. I moved from San Francisco to rural, rural Maine when I was 13, and so the level of diversity obviously worlds apart at that the level of ignorance about racism and black people. Like, there literally was no black people where I moved to. So the language that was being used, the things that were being said, the bias that was just being like, spewed forth. I was like, whoa, whoa. This is not okay with me. But, you know, it's interesting to notice, like, when, who it is like if are you able to speak up, if your neighbor makes a racist comment, versus if your boss makes a racist comment, and like, you know, really feeling into what that means to be brave and to be put yourself in a vulnerable position that you know people of color are living with every second of the day, that high level of vulnerability and feeling unsafe. And so I would challenge people to step up when you have a tiny, little, itty bitty moment that presents itself, that might be uncomfortable or feel unsafe. Is to you know, I've had a lot of success with the formula of like, say it's uncomfortable first, and then say what it is. Like I have to say something right now because of what you just said, and I feel really uncomfortable saying it. That's like that creates a little space for me, because if you just jump down someone's throat, it feels it feels like insurmountable. Do you know what I mean?

Casey O'Roarty 43:12
Well, it feels like a fight. It feels like and then it becomes less about the topic and more about, well, I can shoot you down, or I'm feeling threatened, or whatever. It just takes

Sarah MacLaughlin 43:22
that less combative. It's less combative, and I feel like it's owning, you know? It just helps me be brave when I own that it's scary and hard. Like it's hard to say what I'm about to say, but I'm gonna say it anyway, because I can't live with myself if I don't. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 43:36
well, my, one of my favorite mentors, says when fear is present. The teacher is in the room, right? Like, I mean, fear can have, you know, there's the shadow side and the light side of fear. And one of the things that I think is the light side of fear is, is, it's a push. It's like, Wait a minute. I feel, you know, perhaps this is something that I have to do, like, hello, fear. Thank you for reminding me that I can't just sit here and say nothing. Be brave. People. Be brave.

Sarah MacLaughlin 44:05
Be brave. Be uncomfortable. Be be ineloquent. You know, like our culture is, is we need to push back against the culture, you know, in so many different ways. But that is a big, huge one to you know, the other, the other thing I wanted to say before we finish on how much time we have left, but is about, you know, all of the isms and the phobias. It's a really, really nice in because we can't shield our kids from media. I mean, presumably you have 100 books in your house and your TV is on sometimes, and pointing out to kids from a very young age, the disparity that you're gonna see like unless you have worked super, super hard to fill your, you know, house with every single book or movie or whatever that has people of color in it. Your house is full of white characters and white stories about white. People, and the very least we can do is, like, talk about that, try to work against it. I listed some book I listed a link to books, book lists for for kids and young people, because that's just, like, just do it. You know what? I mean? Yeah, just, and I just pointed out when, when it's not like, when, all of the characters are white, say, Huh, this is interesting. You know, the the world is full of all different kinds of people. And here we are watching another show about white folks, like, yeah, just, even just saying that, like, that pokes a hole at that, at that, you know, wall and makes it less sturdy, which is what we want. Yeah, yes. So media literacy, that's

Casey O'Roarty 45:39
a big that's a big one. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about all this messiness with me. You're very welcome. I really appreciate your job. I know, right? Yep, well, and I, and I, you know, we were going to be explicit about this at the beginning so we can just be really transparent now, like we don't have all the answers. And we are two human beings who are just trying to make sense of the world and make it better and do our best with our own family and families that we serve. And, you know, I try to remind myself that I am blind to my blindness as well. You know, I don't and I think that's something that well, I'm not going to get off on that tangent. That tangent. Well, I'm just going to say, really quick, I think that's something that holds me back too. Is like worrying about, like, in my quest to make the world a better place, I'm somehow offending somebody else, and that can't stop me, right? That can't stop me because somebody's gonna call me out, and I'm gonna get to be ever more eloquent. And wow, thank you for pointing that out. I didn't even realize, yes, that that was offensive, and now that I do, and you've broadened my lens. So anyway, don't be afraid. Be brave. Yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 46:55
be brave, because you were gonna be afraid. And yeah, yeah, we could keep going forever, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 46:59
sure. And one last quote, I posted it on my little Facebook page, but that I really liked, and I don't know where it came from, it's an Instagram repost. Things are not getting worse. They are getting uncovered. We must hold each other tight and continue to pull back the veil. And I feel like in conversations like this, that's what we're doing. So thanks for being a part of it. Sarah, oh,

Sarah MacLaughlin 47:23
thank you for having me. All right, well,

Casey O'Roarty 47:25
till next time, all right, take care. Bye.

Thank you so much for being a part of this incredible journey that we are on together, right? We're on it together. We're a community. We're a tribe. We are banded in our quest to make the world a better place, to raise kids who are warriors for peace and love and understanding and good choices and good problem solving skills, and I so I'm so honored to be a part of that for you and your life. So something I didn't ask Sarah was where you can find her work. So Sarah has a website. It's Sarah McLaughlin com. You can follow her on Facebook. Sarah McLaughlin, comma, l, s, w, that's her business page. You can also follow her on Twitter, if that's your thing. She is at Sarah McLaughlin, and let's see where else can you find her? Oh, she's on Pinterest. Sarah McLaughlin, s McLaughlin on Pinterest, and finally, Instagram. You can find Sarah on Instagram at Sarah McLaughlin, so whatever your social media preference is, you can follow her work, and I just adore her. We when we finished recording, she said, Oh, I wish you lived close by and we couldn't live farther apart from each other, but you know, it's it's just so important to have people in your life that you can have real, meaningful forwarding conversations with where you feel safe, to be vulnerable, to say the wrong thing, to do your best to understand and to be open to perspective. And so my my hope and my wish for all of you is that you have a community like that, a real life, community like that in your life, where you can carry on this conversation, carry on this discussion. And if you find yourself not in a community where that can happen, please, please, please, if you're not already a part of live and love with joyful courage on Facebook, come on over, go into the search bar, type, live in love with joyful courage on Facebook, and it'll get you to our group. Click, join. I will accept you, and you can carry on the conversations that are meaningful to you around parenting, with people that are going to support and celebrate. And Offer. Offer tips. Okay, so I want you to be a part of it. The other thing I want to promote, before I say goodbye, is my August program, joyful courage 10 is going to start August 24 you have a little bit of time. But in the meantime, please, please sign up and register. It's a 10 day free course that is designed with the intention of helping you be intentional in your parenting. So just like Sarah and I were just talking about how sometimes our kids say the darndest things, and we respond typically, well, we can respond with like, oh my god, I can't believe you said that, right? Or maybe they come to us with with information or thoughts or questions that make us feel uncomfortable or put us in a reactionary mode. Or maybe they're just plain being difficult and challenging and annoying, and we go into that reactive, crazy person, crazy parent mode, joyful courage. 10 is all about broadening the space between between the event or the experience and how we respond. So if you are a parent who recognizes that you can be doing a little bit more work in helping yourself stay centered and calm and loving in the heat of the moment, this is absolutely a program for you. You can find more information at www, dot, joyful courage.com/jc, 10. Www, dot, joyful courage.com/jc, 10. You can read up about the program and you can register. And the fun thing about this program that sets it apart from others is I will be taking advantage of text messaging, which makes me really excited. So check it out. As always, your feedback is appreciated. You can send feedback to me at Casey, at joyful courage.com, you can find me on Facebook at joyful courage on Instagram, at joyful courage on Twitter, at joyful underscore courage. If you ever can't find me on a social media platform, put a little underscore between joyful and courage, and that might be helpful. And again, please join our community on Facebook. Live in love with joyful courage. All the links we talked about, all the articles we talked about, will be present in the show notes. And I'm just so honored and grateful and really stoked that we come together once a week like this, and that you find value in the show. So yay. Please find three people this week to say, Hey, I listen to this great podcast. What you don't know what a podcast is. Let me show you. Give me your phone. I'll sign you up. Help them. Spread the word. Spread the Love. All right, that's great payback for the value that gets offered on the podcast. Pass it on, my friends. And if you're interested in some actual podcast, postcards to leave around your community. Send me an email with the subject line postcards and your address, and I will package up 10 or so cards and send them on your way, and you can put them around in the local parenting hangout places in your real life community. All right, that would be awesome. All right, my friends. Big, huge. Love to all of you, and until next time, mwah.