Eps 506: Navigating grief that can show up during  the teen years with Sascha Demerjian

What does joyful courage mean to you

 

In a way, I feel like this is exactly what I’ve been trying to cultivate.  It’s bravely creating joy, nurturing joy, and being open to joy even when the flames are all around.  It’s a mess.  We’re brave, and it’s all the things.  That’s the courage part.

 

Resources

The Grief House

The Wild Edge of Sorrow book 

Joyful Courage Parent Membership 

Grief House Portals Podcast

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
grief, kids, feel, house, high school, work, sasha, talk, parents, idea, years, community, rowan, life, experience, today, pandemic, casey, support, space
SPEAKERS
Casey O'Roarty, Sascha Demerjian

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together. While parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people. And when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already, I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sprout double. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:24
All right. So listeners Welcome back to the show. My guest today is Sasha immersion. She is a co founder at the grief house. She has a Master's in Social Work from the University of Michigan, a PhD in sociology from Emory University, and has experienced joy and loss from many moves across the country, parenthood and pet parenthood, among other things. At the grief house she leads develops and facilitates opportunities for people to be present with their grief. The grief house creates and supports community led offerings that foster the metabolism of grief from all kinds of loss. We do this by cultivating, curating and collaborating on gatherings and experiences at the grief house and aligned project spaces throughout communities online. And in Portland, Oregon, and Atlanta, Georgia. Hi, Sasha. Welcome to the show.

Sascha Demerjian 02:21
Hi, Casey. Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 02:22
This is such a treat. I'm so excited to be talking with you. In this context. Can you share a little bit? How did you get into the work that you're doing? Sure house?

Sascha Demerjian 02:35
Well, there's a couple of different threads, I will briefly sum them up. First of all, my co founder, Laura, she and I met when we were 14, we lived together in our families lived together in Boston. And we were fast friends. And like sisters, we've came in and out of each other's lives over the years. And she had this idea for a grief farm. And I love the idea. I was like, this is fantastic. I was doing research at the University of Washington and I was like, There's something about holding space for hard things without trying to fix them. And the idea being you can just be there and be crying, you can let your mask go, you can be angry, you can be messy, and you could be gardening. So that was like the origin of this project, which then translated into a you know, virtual offerings because of pandemic and house in the city in Portland, and things now in Atlanta, which is where I live. But for me personally, I was on track to work in research do maybe policy work. And meanwhile, my mother was deteriorating. She also has her PhD had her PhD, but was also had ongoing chronic mental illness issues and self medicated with alcohol and drugs. And then in 2020, she died from one fall to many. And when she died, it was you know, I realized I felt like I had been in, you know, graefes waiting room for a decade or more. I just felt like, you know, it's like, I want to go ahead and be done with this. Like, it's it was so painful. And I didn't feel like I could bring this to every, you know, like, Hey, how you doing? You know, and it's like, Oh, hey, I just dropped my mom off at the shelter. Like, things were precarious and painful for a long time. And I was like, Wouldn't it be nice if there was a space where I could just be messy where people wouldn't flinch away where the whole idea is just that we're here to hold that and not try to fix it because sometimes it's like well, have you tried this? Have you tried that and sometimes she chest needs to be messy. Yeah. And being community and from there, we grew it.

Casey O'Roarty 04:55
Got him so relating to that fixing piece man. And what is that is that Just because I'm uncomfortable, and I want to be in service to you, like, I want you to feel better, so I can feel better. What do you notice about that fixing?

Sascha Demerjian 05:11
I mean, I see that. And this loops back to what we're talking about today about kids. Yeah, it's uncomfortable to be around messiness. And someone who's hurting. And so of course, the impulse is to like, What haven't you tried? Can you try like this? You know, and it became like, what is it green eggs and ham? Like, you know, like, would you like it like this? Would you like it like that? Like, you know, it's just not working. And all the thing I knew wasn't working was the relentless advice. Yeah. And I was wearing myself out with my mother. It's like, I had this script, especially late at night, you know, we'd come in, it's like, did you look at it like this? Like, did you look at it like that? Do you think maybe if you tried this approach, do you think if you contacted this kind of therapist, that would help. And the truth was, I had to reckon with the fact that I didn't have control. She was going to do what she was going to do. For what I could control was taking care of myself. And you know, I was not as good a mom, like, I was so distracted, and like I was even I went to the ER once with hives after seeing her. So like, it was not good. I was like, I gotta take care of myself. And that, I don't know, that allowed me to see that. Like, I can't, that's thing I can do. That's where I do have control. Some? Not total, but some, but I can't change her course, no matter how much I want it. Yeah. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 06:43
And you mentioned so we're going to talk about parental grief, specifically today. And what does that mean to you, like we use help set the context of the short?

Sascha Demerjian 06:54
Well, there's obviously like, at the grief house, we have events for folks who have lost a child. And that is obviously, you know, grief, parental grief. There is also this whole other category of grief that comes, you know, and it's can be tricky to talk about. And this is, I think, why we need to talk about it. You know, there's a great book called The wild edge of sorrow by Francis Weller, and he breaks down kind of different, what he calls gates of grief, and one of them is not getting what you expected. And another is, you know, receiving something that you didn't expect. So, those two really resonated with me when I think about my own journey as a mother, and my kids are 14 and 18. And some of my friends who I know have gone through it, you know, just in it, you know, kids with various, you know, physical or intellectual differences, or had journeys, or with mental health, or other just things that you weren't expecting when you were like, I'm gonna have a baby, you know, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 08:05
yeah. And they're gonna hate me.

Sascha Demerjian 08:08
They're gonna hate me, right?

Casey O'Roarty 08:10
They're gonna try, you know, they're gonna miss you substances. excited me, Sasha, I'm thinking about like, I mean, it really, when you said, not getting what you expected us? I feel like so many of the parents that I work closely with, like that is the real work is being with that. And finding some, I mean, is it peace or some neutrality? Right? Well, we were talking before I hit record, just about, like, detangling ourselves from the idea that, well, I mean, that it should look a certain way, the idea that we're holding a certain narrative and the idea that we're responsible to create the narrative for our kids versus we get to witness we get to be with

Sascha Demerjian 09:00
Yes. And that word witness is so important to the work that we do. And, you know, I think witnessing and being witnessed is really, you know, doesn't get enough attention. It's really powerful, but without rushing into fix me, like, I just witnessed you and now I want to fix everything I saw, you know, that has a different feel than I'm witnessing You and I'm seeing you. And I'm here. In the work we do. We try to do a lot of that witnessing and sharing. And with our kids, I too thick. I mean, we go into it with so many expectations. I don't know how you would not like you, you're let's say you're pregnant. You're like, I'm going to have a baby like that's an expectation so you get things ready and whatnot. That is pretty natural, but it can just snowball from there. Yeah, I mean, the world. You know, that marketing, you know, social media is going to just throw with all kinds of extra additional expectations, hopes shoulds, just on that pile. And I know for me after a while I was like, I don't know that this is even my belief. But here I am, like, looking forward to this thing that supposedly is going to happen to me as a parent.

Casey O'Roarty 10:19
Yeah. Well, and it's like, we don't even realize that we have the narratives that we're holding so tight to the narratives until there's that hard left turn that one of our kids take, oh, we realize like, oh, I mean, I've talked about this before, you know, when Rowan dropped out of school when my daughter at the start of 11th grade, and I was like, wait, you know, what, to me was a no brainer. The whole like, move through high school, graduate from high school, go on to something. I didn't even consider that a narrative, or an expectation. It was just like, it's what you do.

Sascha Demerjian 11:01
It's just what you do. It wasn't even like, this isn't a belief. This is just the, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 11:07
yeah. Yeah. And there was so much emotion as I tried. Well, to convince her not to do that first, you know, kudos to my husband, who was on board with supporting her much quicker than I was. I mean, and I wouldn't say I didn't want to support her. I just could not wrap my head around this reality for a while. And then that, you know, and it took a long time to realize, like, part of what I was going through was grief. Because I had had an amazing high school experience. I know. And the more people I talk to you about high school, I'm like, Oh, that was actually unique. The more people I meet, it's like, oh, high school sucks. Yeah, God, I had such a blast, high school experience. It was so fun. I mean, it was so fun. And both of my kids mean, Ian's had a traditional high school experience. And as I said, graduating as of this recording, and, but also wasn't like, in the middle of it super joiner, he didn't have my high school experience. And even that was like, oh, man, I wanted that for them. You know, and be with them having a different experience there is, there's some grief there to

Sascha Demerjian 12:22
feel like that was grief for them. And they're what they didn't experience are for you now getting to sit as a mother watching it. Because I've wondered about this myself. And I think it's maybe a little bit of both. But

Casey O'Roarty 12:33
yeah, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind for me, when I think about that specific experience is I still have such deep, solid friendships from high school. And I feel so grateful for that. I mean, in the jury's out for Ian, he's got a handful of really good childhood and high school friends, and Roland doesn't. And it just kind of makes me sad for her because I want that deep connection for her. But she would be the first one to say like, Well, that's about you, mom. I'm good. Like she's not missing. Right?

Sascha Demerjian 13:08
Right. Exactly. i It makes me think of when I was feeling sad about my kids not having like my mom in their life as a grandmother. And I talked to my son my older one day, and he was like, like, they didn't miss anything, because they didn't know the difference. Right? And that was me putting something on the experience and feeling all kinds of ways about it. When, for him, it is what it is like she's this kind of like, you know, distant figure in my life. It's not like he lost this, you know, traditional grandmother figure. Yeah, so I was a part of your I've followed you for years since, like, my kids were little we lived in Seattle, and I love that I was listening, you know, when they were young. And then when things got real with my kids a few years ago, I started doubling down and I joined your parent community, your group membership, and it was really powerful and helpful, just even to be in the community, but also the things that you shared. So I'll just put a plug in for that because that was really useful.

Sascha Demerjian 14:22
And you sharing so vulnerably over these few years, was like a lighthouse to me in like the fog. And I appreciate that. And I appreciate Rowan being willing to share her story like really, really helpful. And you know, it was when I talk to my son who's more private. I was like, explained why I wanted to come on because I wanted to talk to people in the fog. Because I know like when you're What do you hear in the trenches? The fog when you're like, Yes, I'm terrified. And like I'm maybe in a panic Lupe, maybe I'm just like, despairing, I feel like I should give up. I'm not getting along with my kid. Like so many things. It is such a scary place to be. And then the reason we started this was I actually reached out and I was like, you know, I wonder if some of the parents in the group or your community would want grief support? Yes. And yes, yes. Because for me, obviously, this is work I've been doing and I've been fairly immersed in, the more I gave space for my own grief around the process and around what expectations didn't get met. I realized number one, like, where did those come from? And to like, what, why, why were they even there? So my older kid, he also dropped out of high school. He dropped out after sophomore year, and he's only 18. So that was pandemic, it was a rough. I mean, pandemic was just

Casey O'Roarty 15:56
Oh, my gosh, she has its

Sascha Demerjian 15:58
own layer. Yeah, yeah. And so, and with mental illness, you know, concerns OCD, anxiety, ADHD, it was I'm not great. It was my crank. I also had a really spectacular high school experience. Like, I co founded the grief house with my high school friend. And I do see that there is a layer of like, not that this is it. But like, this is a wonderful moment. This is a chapter. This is like a time and he didn't have any of it. He white knuckled through his early years. I see that now. And he said a couple of things to me, that I may be shared when I was this is probably when I was in the group. But at one point, he was like, I know, you think that that was better, like I was doing better than, but I was not doing better. I only thought you didn't care about how I felt inside. And that that didn't matter. It's like, Oh, no. Oh, no. There are few moments where he has been such a teacher for

Casey O'Roarty 17:04
me. I bet there's been more than a few. Oh, yes. My daughter

Sascha Demerjian 17:08
too. And I am. It's like it has, you know, brought me to my knees and taken me apart. And I'm like putting myself back together. And the thing that I wanted to communicate to anyone who's in the fog, is that it is possible to move through the fog and stay connected to your kid. But it might mean letting go of some stuff. That's my take.

Casey O'Roarty 17:34
Yeah. Yes. And I aligned with that so deeply Sasha? Because, I mean, you're about four years behind me, right? In the staff. Yep. And when I think back, I've talked about it in a couple different places recently, when I think back to five years ago, for me, it was five years ago, then four and a half years ago that Rowan just finally said, Nope, not doing it. And what I didn't know, then, that I know now is that her self preservation ability was off the charts. She was able to say, to survive, I need to do something different. And it doesn't matter to me that it looks so crazy to you. Right? Like her survival instinct for self preservation was off the charts. And, you know, she was also coping in unhealthy ways because she was 16. And that's we I mean, how many how big is our bucket of coping skills? Brain? Right? Not very big. And, yeah, and I often would think, like, wow, generationally, had she been me with my parents. I don't know if she would have survived. But she came in under me instead, once I finally settled down, and had that same realization that you had like, okay, yes, there is some gentle kind of like, hurting happening here. Right. It's not just no a total, no, full let go. There was some gentle eye, my arms are out. There's like, I'm like hurting? Yes, go on. But it was also very much letting go of a timetable, letting go of the narrative and deep faith and trust that her life was going to continue to unfold, and that it wouldn't always feel the way it felt in that moment. Yes. And I have clients in the community right now and I'm the main they are so on my mind who like are very much and a different than our situation where there's kind of this withdrawal. I mean, that's one that is one way, right? I mean, Rowan had a shirt when the pandemic happened that said social We distant before it was cool. She was like sweet. Yeah, isn't any pressure angle, right. And you know, I have other clients who it's more their kids are taking it upon themselves to launch way earlier than they're ready for or again, it's that you know, risk taking sprinkled in with some mental health stuff. And I've said this a couple times recently on the pod, I had a really good friend of mine, my friend cam said case, just give me the nutshell. You know, he has a 15 year old, he's like, just give me the nutshell on the planting thing. And I said, well, the nutshell is cam Don't make it worse. It's so like simple and kind of flip. But it is also super deep and profound.

Sascha Demerjian 20:46
Don't make it worse, don't make it worse. And I was definitely making it worse for a while. Yeah, you know, and what was making it worse in my house was my emotional reactions to everything, even when I tried to be like, measured in my actual like expression. I was like, I put inordinate, like stress on particular, like, you know, a timeline or a particular thing being done. And I realized underneath that there was this idea that, you know, I kept and and I have the added layer of, of my mother as this horrific, like, it can go badly. Yeah. And my brain was like, Oh, and if she doesn't do this, it's going to go badly, you know, digging the ditch, you write it out, like, if you don't do this, then you're dead in a ditch. And that kept me in this fight or flight. Like my pain my system was and I didn't even know, I swear I lived in that for like a year and a half or two years, I'd be like, Okay, I'm calm now. But really what I was was not just, I was balancing teetering, just not quite in panic. And that to me felt better. Yeah. And I saw this amazing kind of trauma informed a somatic oriented therapists who really helped me process my own stuff. Yeah. And be like, how much of this is about my fears, my fears, my worries, my grief. And my kid, like, I've talked to his therapist, and she's like, you don't need to tell him to want more in life. You don't need to advertise life. He's working on it. And I felt like it was my job to be like, here's the next hoop. Here's the next thing. And it also then kept us in this mode of fighting, and disappointment, and transactions. And so it freed me up to be with him in fun ways and talk to him about other things. And now when he sees me coming, I think it's occasionally it's like, do a house chore or something. But it's not. For a while. It was like he just avoided me at all costs, because

Casey O'Roarty 23:06
everything revolved around what he wasn't doing. And yeah, just

Sascha Demerjian 23:11
imagine, we're having a hard time. Yeah. And the person who cares about you just came up. And every time we'd be like, let's talk about your hard time. Let's talk about how you're not really addressing your heart well enough, and I don't think you did the thing I suggested. And to go back to what you said, which was so beautiful about Rowan and how she had her self preservation was like through the chart, it's often off the chart. There is just like in the night, sometimes I get wrapped up in anxiety or worry, at least I used to. There are moments when I have this glimmer with my kid who's four years behind chronologically. I'm like, I think he's taking good care of himself actually, like in a different kind of way than I ever would have dreamt up. And that I still don't know. But I'm trying to trust him. And trust the process and non panic. Yeah, because that's not gonna help. It's gonna make it worse. Panic, rarely better.

Casey O'Roarty 24:12
So yeah, unless you're like running your life. Yes. Right. But use that adrenaline use it? Well, and what you said, like the idea that we're trusting the process, like I'm thinking about, I have a friend who's a client and I mean, school refusal is all over the place. And like, it's a whole thing. And, you know, for us, it was halfway through our kids High School. Although Rohan I mean, 10th grade was some online program. That was a joke, so right, but you know, evermore it's younger and younger kids. And I think there's something I know for me, that helps me and I'm curious if this helps you. Like there's no I mean, granted Yes, when A deep dive into teen brain development. I look at all the places and the importance of social engagement and the importance of, you know, healthy risk taking and trying new things and having a kid that wouldn't leave the house and wasn't mingling. It was on my mind, right? Oh, yeah. And what I'm finding and what I'm continuing to trust, as my child is out in the world ever more, is that she is feeling those gaps. And she is deciding to do something about it. Like she even told me recently. She's like, Yeah, you know what I've been doing, I go for walks in public, because she hates walking in public, like walking down the sidewalk. And she's like, I'm doing it so that I can get used to it. Nobody told her to do it. As I think about the people that are listening, specifically, a few that I know are really in the fog. There's this idea that we launch our little baby birds, and they're good to go. But when we think about who we are, and 50, like my development happened in my 20s, and my 30s, and minority, I mean, yeah, high school, teen years, adolescence was definitely a time of growth and development, but we forget how much life experience actually teaches us. And we as parents get to remember that that's going to happen for our kids, too. Yeah. And it's a range of possible outcomes. Didge worst case scenario, like most people have a story of addiction in their family, or mental illness. So everybody's kind of got that, like, Oh, God, how do I avoid that? Most of us, many of us have these epic stories of like, the awesome unfolding, the likelihood is, our kids are going to fall somewhere between those two, right? There's a bazillion other outcomes and possibilities and to focus on either this or this is such a disservice to them.

Sascha Demerjian 27:06
It is, it really is. And it keeps you locked in kind of a terrifying place of like, looking for signs that it might be dead in a ditch, instead of being like it's gonna be they might

Casey O'Roarty 27:18
just trip on the curb. Exactly. We're gonna trip.

Sascha Demerjian 27:22
And I think the story of Rowan is great. I get it reminds me of my oldest. In fact, both my kids, but especially my oldest has said, the more you tell me to do things, the less motivated I feel, which is incredibly irritating. As a parent, I will

Casey O'Roarty 27:39
just say, relatable. But

Sascha Demerjian 27:41
I also get it when he motivates himself to do a thing. He is proud of it. He's invested in the outcome. He's not just doing it to appease. He is a person who I mean, I thought this since he was little and who knows, but like, he seems a little bit like an old man. And like I just sometimes think, I don't know that he's missing out on something he was gonna have. I think he likes being alone. You know, I don't know that it's healthy. You know, we'll see. But I think he's gonna work on it in his own way. Not in the way I would. And that was important.

Casey O'Roarty 28:20
So hard, because we have a great way. Oh, yes. Look, at my ways

Sascha Demerjian 28:23
proven. It's great. One thing that was related that, as you were talking, I was thinking about, and I feel like you may have touched on this in other episodes, but it's something that I always have mixed feelings about. And that's the idea that you're only as happy as your happy child. I hate

Casey O'Roarty 28:40
that. I hate that phrase nine to codependence it is,

Sascha Demerjian 28:45
you know, and so what I want to say is, if that rings true for you, I both understand why. Number one, but number two, yes. And what pressure to put on an already depressed or troubled kid to be like now my parents wellness is dependent upon me and I can barely figure it out for myself. Because like you say, I have 16 year old coping skills. So yeah, I can mess. And that's when I was like, Okay, I'm gonna turn and just look at me. How can I find joy and peace next to this? Not try to say I'll be happy and calm once you're fixed. Right. But what was I trying to fix anyway? You say waiting for to be able to feel calm? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 29:30
I think that detachment is so important. And I don't feel like we have great models. You know what that looks like? So it feels a little wobbly. I know it did for me. You know, in positive discipline, we have this activity that I love. And it's one of those contrasting roleplays where you get to be the child and you know, you hear one set of responses versus another set of responses and It sets up enabling versus empowering. And one of my and I'm curious to hear your experience, one of the things that really got in my head was, like dancing with detachment, but also being really aware of, Am I enabling this behavior? And what does that mean? You know, and then there's all this conversation around anxiety specifically, and like, the ways that parents are enabling anxiety. And as if there's like, a five step process to figure it all out. There's not it's super messy. And as I'm talking about it, and thinking about it, too, and thinking about like, how do we empower our kids? It's not a, oh, here's how you do it. Here's the thing. You say, here's the thing you do, and then they will be empowered to like, it's a long game. And I think, being in the kind of leaning back as we have been, as you are talking about, and working on your own joy, actually, there is a message of you know, what, I'm trusting that this is unfolding, as it's meant to unfold for you. I'm trusting you. And that is empowering. Yeah, yeah. I'm just kind of having a real time. Right over here. Yeah,

Sascha Demerjian 31:22
it is. It feels that way at our house. Which doesn't mean, wow, I'm empowered. And now I'm gonna go do everything I really like, no, it's still a slow slog. But it does feel like I was able to shift to an empowerment place in the house. Yeah, I had the same thing. And I gotta say, you know, it feels really different. Talking about my almost 19 year old who's been going to therapy since he was 12. and is willing to talk about things. So like, I'm coming from this place of, I feel like I have a lot to work with in terms of where he's at, and what he's up for. And I have other people who are supporting him who are not May, which is important. But when he was like 12, and 13, that was so confusing, because we had the same thing. And it was like, there were so many times when I just was like this felt wrong, like it feels wrong, to push as hard as I'm pushing. And yet, I'm being told I needed to do this. And I think maybe I do, and I did, I did. And maybe for a different kid, that would have been fine. I will say, you know, we talked about him dropping out of high school, but in a way, I guess we kind of pulled him out, we pulled him out in public high school, we were in the Chicago area at the time. And the thing that frustrated me, one of the many things is he had so many wonderful people on his IEP hit an IEP. So like, that was helpful, that got him access to resources and accommodations at school. But even with the IEP, you have to fail to new levels, before you can get access to more resources. Once I started really asking questions, I was like So you mean, in three more months, we'll see how much failure and then we'll see if another level is available. Because the idea was that maybe at some point, they would publicly fund a special school or program for him. And meanwhile, I see my kid sinking in shame at not being able to do it, even with some massive amount of accommodations. And I was like, No, yeah, I can't, I can't. Yeah, you know, there is no right way. My other kid my daughter is so different. The things that motivate her. She can be externally and internally motivated. Like she's different. Different people,

Casey O'Roarty 33:52
though. Second kids, man. I'm like a trip.

Sascha Demerjian 33:57
Yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 33:58
You know, it's funny as we're talking, and I'm thinking about the people that are listening. And I'm thinking again, specifically of some people that I work really closely with. And you mentioned how useful the membership community was to you. We live so isolated, and we see each other through the lens of what we're posting. That's so gross to say out loud, but whatever. It's true. I know. And we forget that we have no idea what's going on, actually, in our neighbor's house. We don't know what they're struggling with. And out in the world. I think there's this idea that people aren't sharing. I'm so grateful. And I'm wondering, I'm guessing this also is the same for you with the grief house. It feels so sacred, to hold a space where people can show up and share their pain and share the shit show and share what feels like oh my god. You know, I recently had one of my members say I almost didn't bring this to the community because cuz I thought, what are they going to think? And I had to remind her like, Have you not been paying attention to all the other posts? The community? We are on the place together, this is the place. Yes. And you know, the next thing that she said was, and I'm so glad that I did, because I got so much compassion and feedback and perspective. And, you know, is that the same at the grief house? Yeah,

Sascha Demerjian 35:22
yeah, I mean, there's something about bringing things out into the light. And it can be vulnerable, it's so vulnerable to be like, This is what's happening. This is what's hard for me right now. And it's met with kindness. And we hold spaces where you can do that we do that in a variety of ways. When we're in person in particular, we do a lot of engaged with a lot of somatic practices. So we might do yoga, we might work with clay, we might do art, or song path, were a mix of all of those letter writing. And, you know, you talked about if only there was like, you know, a step, like step by step how to work move through this, it would still be hard, but at least you're like who at least I know where I'm going

Casey O'Roarty 36:09
to hold on to. Yeah, hold on to because

Sascha Demerjian 36:11
you're desperately looking. Yeah, because it's your kid. It's like the most important thing in your life, right? And with grief, this reminded me, the five stages of grief are not actually about grief, they were designed to talk about the stages you go through when you learn you're going to die. Oh, interesting. So it's about processing your own experience of mortality and accepting death. Here's the follow up, grief doesn't go away. Grief actually kind of changes you. And that's how we talk about metabolizing it, you know, I think the idea that you could just go through your five stages and then be done. It makes people feel bad. Like I didn't do it, right. Like I didn't do it. And it's like, no, it's just loss is a part of life. It just is. And if we have a space, and have community, like the grief house, people find other parent groups where you can share and be vulnerable and witness and feel not so alone. I feel like that is so helpful in processing our side of it, so that we're not trying to do it through our children, and not waiting for them to fix it with their action and behavior.

Casey O'Roarty 37:26
Everybody, just go back 15 seconds and listen to Sasha say that again, please, because that's huge. That's huge. Yeah, Sasha, I had really no idea the work that you did. And I'm so excited that we got to have this conversation. Me too.

Sascha Demerjian 37:46
I'm delighted to be on here. And I would be happy to be a resource I your community. And I love the work you do. I mean, Casey, you have, like I said, been my lighthouse. So thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 37:59
Well, my last question, as I know, you know, what does joyful courage mean to you? In a

Sascha Demerjian 38:05
way I feel like that's exactly what I've been trying to cultivate. It's bravely creating joy and nurturing joy and being open to joy showing up even while the flames are all around. Like it's a mess. We're brave. It's all the things. And that's the courage part of that.

Casey O'Roarty 38:23
Yeah, thanks. Where can people find you and follow your work?

Sascha Demerjian 38:28
Yeah, the best place to go is our website, grief house dot work. We are a nonprofit, and we do offer gatherings online and in person now. So we have a podcast, grief house portals, it depends on where you look how you look for it. And it's me and Laura and various guests just expounding on grief and loss. So,

Casey O'Roarty 38:51
oh, okay. Well, we'll make sure that there's links to all of that in the show notes and he just really appreciate you thank you so much for being here.

Sascha Demerjian 38:59
salutely This was lovely. Thank you, Casey.

Casey O'Roarty 39:08
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my spreadable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at beasts browseable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

See more