Eps 505: Parenting with Empathy vs Codependency with Susie Pettit

What does joyful courage mean to you

 

Joyful courage, to me, is a feeling state in my body that feels so grounded and free.  It takes courage to live joyfully and practice this popcorn parenting.  It’s that courage to live your own life, to manage your own emotions, and the joy that comes from that.  I love it. 

 

Resources

Susie’s Website 

Susie’s Podcast: The Love Your Life Show 

Casey on The Love Your Life Show: How to Deal with Grumpy People 

Susie on Facebook

Susie on Instagram 

Insight Timer app 

Susie’s Life Audit

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
parenting, kids, popcorn, codependency, people, hard, talk, mom, feeling, experience, lovingly, love, detached, podcast, susie, telling, practice, age, tools, day
SPEAKERS
Susie Pettit, Casey O'Roarty

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together. While parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people and when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sprout double. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:24
Welcome back listeners. I'm so glad that you are joining me for the conversation today. My guest is Susie Pettit. Susie has been helping women live lives they love for over 25 years. She is the founder of the Love Your Life School and the host of the top 1% globally ranked podcast the love your life show. She is a certified parent life and wellness coach and a mom of five sons ages 19 to 26. When I look at that range, I'm thinking about the early years of oh my gosh SNESs Suzy is passionate about helping women live lives that feel as good on the inside. As they look on the outside she spent more than half her life living a life she did not love as a people pleaser and codependent perfectionist. She reflects that it's as if she was trying to win an award for martyr of the year. Luckily, she hit rock bottom and now has the breadth of experience to teach firsthand about setting healthy boundaries, beating your inner critic, how to use mindfulness based tools to beat overwhelm and anxiety and parenting teens and young adults. She uses two foundational frameworks, her five pillars of wellness and the thought model. When she's not working with clients. She's getting used to being an empty nester and her new home on the other side of the world from where I'm at. She's moved from Virginia, in the United States, all the way over to Sydney, Australia. Hi, Susie. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, Casey.

Susie Pettit 02:50
Thanks for having me. So fun.

Casey O'Roarty 02:52
I know, I feel like we've kind of we're online friends brought my friends. I think this might be the first time we're actually in real conversation with each other, which is exciting. Is that true? No,

Susie Pettit 03:03
you were on my show. Back in the day like episode. I don't know. It was under the 50s. Like I'm now you know, in Episode 300. Yeah, it was back in the early day. And I was so grateful. You motivated me in. I see your wall hanging. I'm blinking at the word downstream. I knew. Right. Exactly. And you motivated people. We were having an interview, I was like, what would make my space look better, too. So I just I think at the at the time your temperature was white and orange. So that might tell you back when

Casey O'Roarty 03:34
I'm here to serve. I'm here to serve Susie.

Susie Pettit 03:37
I love it. Yeah, I love online friendship that I love that we can connect and feel so connected through that. I mean, that's where social media really has the strength.

Casey O'Roarty 03:48
Yeah, totally and apart. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And there's so many people that whose work aligns so well with what I'm doing over here with joyful courage. You're one of them. I'm super excited about our topic. I think the listeners are going to be really excited when we launch that too. But before we get there, we learned a little bit about you through your bio, can you fill in some of the gaps and talk a little bit more about the journey that you've been on to do what it is that you're doing? And how did you end up in Sydney, Australia? Doesn't mean question.

Susie Pettit 04:18
Yeah. Right. So just a couple there. I'm 52. So I'll just put 52 years into like

Casey O'Roarty 04:24
35 minutes. Yeah.

Susie Pettit 04:27
But yes, I mean, I am where I am, because of the life that I've led, which is what I think we all sort of realized at some point, I was raised in a household that had no boundaries. It was very codependent. There was I had a narcissistic parent. And so with that I moved into a first marriage that was very similar. So a lot of my background and how I help people in the Love Your Life School is with boundaries, codependency, learning about emotional intelligence and sort of stepping out of taking care of everyone else's feelings as an adult. You So an adult to an adult, I have three biological kids. So when you were picturing five kids under the age of, you know, whatever our brain is picturing that is not the situation. Thank goodness three was enough. Yeah. And then went through a divorce. So I had this upbringing in my family and then went into my first marriage, which I really as we do, I married, you know, a combination of my both of my parents. And then at some point, I had a sort of midlife awakening when one of my dear friends passed. And we were the same age living on the same sort of parallel lives, like just getting together at playgroups complaining about our lives and then being like, Okay, let's see you next week. And she was diagnosed with colon cancer. And, you know, it was a rough three years. And she, in the end, when she was in hospice, we had many conversations where she said, Susie, stop this, like, what are you doing? Like, just like, don't let this be you? Let's, you know, like, live the life you're here to love. And I really, you know, that was a wake up call for me to be like, What am I waiting for, you know, this, like, what is it? And so at that point, really shifting things were starting to come to a head in my marriage, I have a master's of education, and a lot of background and positive discipline and all that sort of stuff. So I had definite ideas of parenting and my spouse, you know, we're in different lines, parenting, and when I just started speaking up and having boundaries and saying things, things started to deteriorate in the marriage. So it was a couple of things me finally starting to speak up and stop being a people pleaser. And then also my kids hitting the preteens and teens. And me, really, you know, not okay with the way that they were parent tid. So, from that went through a divorce, things burnt down and of biological family and all sorts of stuff, which I explained in my podcasts is isn't necessarily relevant here in a parenting podcast, but it is why it's real around dependency and narcissism and the tool we're going to talk about today. And then in my whole journey, I started meditating, to bring some calmness and really my first intent to meditate is I wanted to be less reactive with my kids, and yell less. And so I started meditating one minute a day in, I gave it to myself as my birthday gift. It was 2015. I forget how old I was, and use an App Insight Timer. So that's my read. And in like about four months after I started that meditating journey in the app, I left a review for one of the sleeping meditations. I did and like a week later, I saw someone comment on my review. And meanwhile, I live in Washington, DC outside of Washington, DC. So it's a very security conscious, and the review said, like Casey's if you'd like this, you might like this other meditation, Paul from Wallan. Gone. And my thought was like, okay, dude, like, who made up a town. Thank you, like, commenting on my review. Long story short, that's my husband now. Now, when

Casey O'Roarty 08:04
you're dating app was insight time.

Susie Pettit 08:10
I would love to. I know. So that's how I ended up in Australia. Again. I mean, that was between that initial review and not but one of my, you know, my so I have three biological sons and then two Australian sons. So we have five boys together. And it's so fun. And one of my American sons, my middle son is now at the University of Wollongong, like, just the way right, so cool. Thank you, is a place

Casey O'Roarty 08:40
that's like, we have some wonky names. Well, they're not wonky. They're from the Native Americans that live in the area. And they're difficult to pronounce. I remember moving up here to Washington State and being like, reading these signs like, Yeah, is that walling Dong walling gone?

Susie Pettit 08:57
Well, and gone? Well, I'm even think it's more like walang gone. Oh, wow. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 09:03
I love my story. Oh, my gosh, I love that story. And I'm really appreciating your background, just in codependency and your ability to speak through experience about narcissism. And so one of the tools, I don't really call it a tool, I call it a mantra when I speak into it, a friend of mine, and my listeners have heard me say this one day, I went to a training and my friend was leaning up against the wall, and I hadn't seen her in a while and I said, Oh, hey, Denise, how's it going? And she says, Well, I'm fiercely committed and lovingly detached. And I mean, that stopped me in my tracks that phrase, and I thought it's such a perfect mantra. It's such a perfect direction to point our comparison in the context of parenting, but really, in the context of lifing Yeah, yeah. Right. And so I talk about it a lot. I bring it up to my clients, I practice the best I can And the fiercely committed part we've got down I think, right? Like we love our kids. We're here for our kids we are committed. Absolutely. That part feels really easy. The lovingly detached part is the work for all of us. So talk a little bit let's start a little bit with what does lovingly detached mean to you, lovingly

Susie Pettit 10:22
detach to me, I love those love. I say that often, because I heard that from you that fiercely committed loving me detached, it just encompasses so much of when I am feeling like a grounded parent, and so proud of my parenting, that's what I'm doing. It's that, you know, feeling state inside of me, and the lovingly detached is loving my kids and then enjoying all of them and yet not bringing their experience into me. To me it is the difference between codependency and empathy. Like empathy is, you know, having empathy for someone's emotional state and understanding and feeling, you know, say my son calls from university and says like, he's really pissed at the teacher because he didn't take his essay, you know, whatever I can empathy is like, Oh, I am so like, that stinks. That really is awful. I can imagine how that feels. codependency is taking an over involvement in his feeling state and life experiences in a way that as a mom, it feels to me like I am having the experience. It is a very, like, embodied like, my university professor told me that he wouldn't take my essay and I carry it with me throughout the day. Loving detachment is this ability to have empathy and then to stay in my own experience and feeling state and be able to support my son frankly, better than what happens when I'm codependent and all in it with him. I get into a very fixit mode. And let me put on my supermom cape and come in, and why don't I call the university professors that would be appropriate and all of that. So attached is freedom. For me. It is absolutely freedom, which is why I came up with this tool called popcorn parenting.

Casey O'Roarty 12:05
Yeah. And we're gonna talk about that. So real, I mean, just this morning, or was it last night, I was texting with my 21 year old and, you know, hearing about a place of struggle for her. And I was like, in my mind, and I knew I was going to have this conversation with you. And I had just gotten off of a membership call with my membership group. So I had all my tools like top of mind, but I did notice in the moment like God, it'd be really easy to just call and make her this appointment. Yeah, you know, like, it's always there. And I think that's something that I really want parents to hear us talk about, is as we work and practice sustaining, or creating a sustainable practice around, being lovingly detached, that doesn't mean that we've eliminated that impulse that can show up when we're not paying attention to make everything better, or to take it on ourselves. And I you know, that's something that I just want to make sure that gets landed, it's really about, like, I like to talk about it as we're just pointing the compass in the direction that we want to go in, and sometimes it veers off, and we get to realize, like, oh, codependence

Susie Pettit 13:16
there I am here we go on back. And I really appreciate that it's dropping the judgment of ourselves. And I think it is helpful to hear from to people like us who have a vast background in parenting and in trainings, that absolutely, that urge is still there, that you know, and we have the urge. And then in the present moment, we can notice urges, like, I want to make that phone call, or I want to call the teacher, and then that's why I love these tools that I can be like, Okay, let me practice. You know, one of my favorite tools I learned from you is the BBB like let's, you know, get into our body, our breath and get up into the balcony or let's, you know, practice popcorn. parently that, look, drop the judgment of ourselves. That is one of the things as a mom, I am like, if there's some pill we could all take. So we stopped beating ourselves up and thinking that we could be a better mom and the mom guilt and all that like that. It's just, it's a waste of our brainpower. And we're doing the best we can. And yeah, yes, I definitely want people to hear that I teach this stuff. I coach on it. And I have the urge to like run to you know, oh, wait, what's the problem?

Casey O'Roarty 14:23
I have a great idea. And I think people hear that word detached or detachment. And, you know, it's the same as like positive discipline or positive parenting. There's this idea of like, okay, good luck by there's this idea that we're not doing anything. When we're lovingly detached, and to me, it's still an active response. It just looks different than how we may have been conditioned to be in response. Yes, right.

Susie Pettit 15:03
Well and you know I want to say this super gently because I was a stay at home mom of my three sons for 19 years old for I did the math wrong but whatever I was a stay at home mom for 14 years, a long time, a long time. And the thing here is that like, we get attached and we dive into that fiercely committed mortally attached codependent like, oh my god, I will take care of it for me, because I was receiving something to like I went, you know, from education and working really I was as, as I think a lot of your listeners are this like highly motivated, driven woman who now Oh, okay, now I'm going to be a stay at home mom and wait a minute, like, I'm not being asked for papers, where am I going to, you know, get my worth, when I'm still in that, you know, mindset thinking, it's coming from outside of me, it's like, well, I better, you know, make the beds as well as possible. And I better like cut up the snacks as well as possible. And I better like make sure that my kid is not failing out of biology and so that I'm getting something to it's that you know, are helping is also filling something in us avoiding that, which is why I'm really with moms when I'm watching them, you know, all my kids are launched. Now when I see this good progression from you know, preteen to teen to young adult, the healthiest moms out there, and the healthiest parents are ones who were living their life also, who have shifted from, you know, taking care of every single like putting our needs last because you mentioned conditioning, that is our conditioning, the mother martyr like that selfless woman. Look at her. She does everything for everyone else first. Wow. Like we get so much praise for the color supermom, yes. And it actually is so unhelpful. It's unhelpful for our kids, it's also unhelpful for us, like when we're doing that for our kids, we're sending a message to our kids, we don't think you can do it. And we need to do this for the most well intentioned loving people ever. And yet, it really is helpful for us to be in that lovingly detached place. And that sometimes it's like the wait a minute, like, what kind of mom am I if I'm not, you know, over, like making sure they're making their dentists appointments, and making sure they're doing everything and taking care of it. It's just shifting our definition of you know what a good mom is. And I like defining it for myself, instead of letting society tell me that a good mom, you know, is taking care of everything. And being that helicopter mom and making sure that our kids are happy at all times and never have a bump in the road. It is you know, a good mom to me is someone who lets her kids have the bumps in the roads, knowing that those bumps in the road make my kid more resilient, competent and fulfilled in their life. That's how I got where I am like with the frigate I had some bumps in the road. Yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 17:47
Well, and it's interesting, too, because even as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking like, Well, yeah, you know, one of our positive discipline mantras, mistakes are opportunities to learn, and we don't want to get in the way of life experiences. I think many of us know that. But our tolerance for being with our kids moving through hard things, is a sneaky mofo

Susie Pettit 18:13
Right? Like it is, we

Casey O'Roarty 18:14
don't know what our tolerance is, until we're dropped in to an experience where our kids are struggling, or they're getting into mischief. And so, you know, there's fear and worry, which is, I mean, obviously, it's not going to be like, oh, good luck with that. Right now. Weed smoking. Oh, glad. But you're right. Yeah. Like, yeah, so

Susie Pettit 18:36
it's not like, Okay, I

Casey O'Roarty 18:39
see you. And it's really hard. Yeah, like, Yes, I get it. Yeah, my walk. But then there is this. I want to talk about codependency a little bit, because I think it's healthy for us and normal for us to be like, oh, man, this is hard, like empathy. Right? Yeah. Yeah, I see you in the heart. This is hard. And I am going to have an emotional experience. You know, in response to what my kiddos going through, when does it start to become? And maybe you already kind of said this, but I want to hear you say it again. When does it start to become codependency? When Are we crossing over into a line where it's, you know, unhealthy and something to really take a look at.

Susie Pettit 19:19
I mean, we can notice it in our actions. I like thinking of parenting and I like and like interact with the kid like it's, you know, your neighbor's kid, like so you go to your neighbor's house, and they tell you, they just failed a biology test. And they're so upset, like, what are you going to do that is lovingly detached. You're like, feeling sorry for this kid. You're like, that totally stinks. Oh my gosh, but you're not going to feel the responsibility. The heaviness and the responsibility is codependency is the way I can like when we're talking about a body feeling state, it feels heavy. It's like you are not going to be awake at night. Unless you're very very codependent, which I get I've been there but you're not going to be awake at night where Think about the neighbor's kid and what happened in biology, right? Where's you know, everything's going fine, you're like, it'd be fine for that kid, right? You're like this There have and it's back to the mistakes are learning opportunities, and they're going to figure this out. And maybe they'll learn that like, Oh, next time, maybe they should study 30 minutes before the test and all of that, that goodness. So the codependency really is this heaviness and over involvement in the feeling state. And what I find helps with codependency is a mom or a parent strengthening her own emotional intelligence. And because we're so programmed, it makes sense. Biologically, we have these kids, they can't function without us when they are, you know, babies, infants, you know, under the age of so we are completely primed to take care of their every need and want and desire. And yet in our growth and their growth, part of it requires us to step back and stop doing that to stop, you know, like, we're doing that 100% When they're, you know, one and under, we want to be doing that, you know, 0% when they're 25 and older. And so that transgression, like to get to that gradual place can be really, really hard. Yeah, but the codependency there of letting them have their feelings state. And then us this is where us is a mom building our emotional ability to feel it. So I might say to myself, like, you know, my son comes home, they he comes home and he's like, I failed the biology test. I'm so upset. I'm so dumb. In my head. I might say it is so hard for me to see him upset. So I try to bring it back to me. What is my in your head state in my head? Yeah. In my head. What is my emotional state watching him? Yeah, if I say that out loud. It's like okay, narcissist. Like

Casey O'Roarty 21:46
a really hard time if you're

Susie Pettit 21:49
upset. But that's ultimately what it is when we're attached. When we are attached. It's like happening to us. And what we're trying to do in our actions is that like fight flight, freeze or fix. We're trying to do the fixing the fawning that like oh my God, let me get him out of this feeling state so I can feel better. Yeah. Which is ultimate instead of like, he's having the experience he's having this is really hard for me to see, it's hard for me to see my little angel, you know, struggling and this is, wow, it's and I'm gonna breathe, and I'm gonna take a breath. I'm gonna grip the balcony. And then I'm gonna say to him like, wow, that's really soft. You know? What's that like, for you are telling me more? Well,

Casey O'Roarty 22:25
you have this great metaphor that I want to dig into now. So this whole popcorn parenting thing. And I think the way that you talk about, you know, the movie and getting into the director's seat, I think this also will further illustrate and understanding around codependency versus lovingly detach, to talk a little bit about what you know, your tool of popcorn parenting? Well,

Susie Pettit 22:50
popcorn parenting, it's giving us a tool to be lovingly detached when our emotions are high. So when our emotions are high, our thinking is low. And so sometimes it's really helpful for me to have a tool like bBV, or like popcorn parenting to grab and be like, Okay, let me practice this. And so ultimately, there are two pieces to popcorn parenting. One is mindset, where we have this underlying belief that things work out for us, that mistakes are opportunities to grow, you know, that we can look at our past experiences our own as teenagers and preteens and young adults, and also our kids. And see, you know what, like, these mistakes lead along the way, maybe we won't choose every single one of them. But ultimately, like we make it through all of our worst days, and we learn things about ourselves, and they are opportunities to grow up. So it is this, you know, underlying belief that things end well, you know, things go well for our kid. And then, right, and so there's this, you know, popcorn parenting, a little bit of mindset, and then a little bit of mindful sort of realism that we are not the directors in our kids like, we are not the rulers of the universe. We don't actually know, this is so hard, but we actually don't know what is absolutely right for our kid. Like whether so they failed the biology test, like what's right, is it right for them to go in and talk to the teachers are right for them to we have our ideas, because we've been through many, many more years of living and life experiences that we bring to that, but we don't know. But it's sort of stepping out of this egoic place that I know what's best for all the people in my life. It's part of the let them theory that Mel Robbins talks about I did a podcast on him that was like super popular too. And it's just this, you know, like when we can step back and be in loving detachment and be like, hey, that stinks. What are you going to do? And he's like, Well, I think I'm just going to,

24:43
you know, go play a video game and then maybe go upstairs and do my homework for tomorrow.

Susie Pettit 24:48
We're like It's like shot, mom, like, just take a breath. Yeah. So the popcorn parenting is Imagine, you know, we're in a mall somewhere and you're walking into this great new, you know, movie that you're so excited to see. And I'm walking out and I'm like, oh my god, JC it's so good. Like, it ends up so well. And I like there are times when you think that they aren't going to get together and things, but it does. And you're like, Suze, I haven't done it yet. And I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm sorry. Okay, forget what I say. But you can't forget it. So you go into the movie, and you're watching the movie. And there are these twists and turns and you're like, Oh, my God, like, the girls are not talking to her at recess. But ultimately, you're sitting in your seat, and you're like, but I know it ends well, because he spoiled it for me. So like, you're just in a calmer physical state, because you're just you're like, let's see how this goes is sort of the mindset, it literally is lovingly detachment, you're like, Okay, I know, it ends, well, let me see what happens. Let me see what the characters do. That's the one part of the mindset where it's like, it all ends, well, the movies been spoiled for you so very much, it doesn't well, and let me see how this goes. Coupled with, then when you're watching a movie, it is not your job to stand up and be like, take me on the road, you know, like yell at the screen, or call the director and be like, I really think this person needs to, you know, do their, like call the teacher to ask for extra credit. No, you sit back, you eat your popcorn, you know, it ends well, you take some deep breaths, you know. And ultimately, what I also like about the movie metaphor, is when we go to a movie, and like you come out of the movie, if there have not been twists and turns, if they're not been up and down. You're sort of like, who knows, all right. It's not a good movie. Yeah, makes a good movie. Is those like edge of the seat like sort of a government? Oh, like, oh my gosh, you know, like, when my son told me, he's like, I think I'm gonna go to University of Wellington. I was still living in Virginia. And it was this like, okay, like, you've never seen the campus? How are we going to get you there? It's the middle of COVID, you know, and it's just like, in my head, it's like, okay, calm down, eat your popcorn moment, take some deep breaths and like, Okay, tell me more. You know, like,

Casey O'Roarty 27:14
I love that reminder, like, eat your popcorn. I love that.

Casey O'Roarty 27:24
You know, one of the things that we talk about in positive discipline, one of the kind of pillars is trusting the process, we get trained that way as parent educators, like we get to trust the process of the parents that are sitting in our courses, we also get to invite parents to trust the process of their kids, life unfolding. Right. And I really, that's the other thing that's kind of coming to mind as I listen to you and I love you know, and do you ever feel like because as a coach, so, you know, sometimes when I'm talking to parents, you know, there's always the tendons, not not the tendency, but even when I say like, what if your belief is that everything's gonna turn out? All right? And then there's typically a parent who's like, but what if it doesn't? You know, and then when I think about that, to me, I want to live in a world where I get to trust that everything's gonna be all right. Even when things are clearly falling apart. You know, like, I get to be with the fall apart in a much better headspace. Then, like, up here we go, it's not going to be alright, it's not going to work out. It's not going to be okay for my kid, right? So like, the value of that mindset, regardless of what we're defining as everything's gonna be okay, right. Living in that mindset puts us in such a different headspace for being with our people.

Susie Pettit 28:53
Yeah, and it's a very hard thing to wrap your head around without the practice of it. So that's why I love coaching and I love you know that we both help people with this because it is this I mean, I have anxiety and anxiety is from this would if and you're imagining the worst case scenario and you're really going down that dark road of like, well what if this biology test means this at any you know, it's like you're just catastrophizing. So keep saying biology,

Casey O'Roarty 29:21
but I keep thinking, calculus, that's okay. Calculus, calculus. That's what's happening over here is, oh, my God.

Susie Pettit 29:30
But it's that like, and our brain and I think so it's important to recognize one thing with anxiety that I find is that you have to go follow the what if the whole way when if moms are anxious, and their brains are like, what if we usually stop and then in our brains, we're leaving this open question of What if but we're not answering it. So it's like what if and then what is our brain making up like pay some attention, get in a coaching session with someone like one of us where we can help you with that? And we're like, okay, what is your brain telling you is the worst thing here and they You go there? And then you answer, what would you do? So what would you do if that? And it's like, really what ultimately it comes down to the most? It's like, I'd handle it, it would suck, it would be awful, it would be correct. And I would have like, what would I do? Okay, I'd get them into a program, okay, I check them into the hospital, okay, I get it, like, whatever the one is. And then once we've done that, once, we need to use some brain control and some, you know, other tools that we teach them Sure, to bring it back to like, and now that was like, our brains little like, you know, Candy moment where it's like, let's see, and figure out the worst case scenario. And now we're gonna bring you back. And we do some training to this, like, and now what if it ends up better than you ever imagined? What if, as reality shows us, all these little bumps in the road lead to this greater, more wonderful, fulfilled person, and you know, it helps them become the young woman or man, it is this trusting of the process, the popcorn parenting, sometimes it's helpful to have examples, and one I was just thinking of, and it does not have anything to do with calculus or biology. But say, your middle school daughter comes home from school, and she's crying. And you say, like, you know, you pick her up in the car, and she's crying immediately. And you're like, what's going on? And she's like, get lunch, no one would talk to me, they were pretending like, I would talk. And they were pretending like they couldn't hear me. And then they were moving their lips, and just like, pretending they were talking, but not making noise. And it was just so unfair mom, and it was so rude. And then they got up and left the table. And you're there. And you are like,

Casey O'Roarty 31:28
I'm taking those girls down.

Susie Pettit 31:30
I'm like, calling those moms I'm telling them, you know, like, and so popcorn parenting looks like it is trusting the process. It is trusting your daughter to that like, Okay, this is the experience she's having, I'm gonna breathe. How can I be a best service to her maybe saying in your head, like, it is so hard seeing my daughter have this experience? And we take a breath, we say, Tell me more? What was that like for you? That sounds hard. And then we also say things like, how can I support you? What would feel good right now? Because that's something I noticed, you know, I work with a lot of 40 and 50 year old women who when I'm like, What would help you in this moment, you know, so they're like, feeling all pissed towards their husband? And because they're, you know, doing and I'm like, Well, what would help you? They don't know. Yeah, like, we have been taught to put our needs on the back show that like, I don't know, like, he should know that I need this. It's like, well, you don't need no, right. But that's part of what we can start doing with our kids. It's like, what do you need? And they're like, I don't know, it's like, well, you know, if you didn't know, what would it be? Yeah, like, I think I might need to go shoot some hoops. So I think I might need to watch a video or two, or I think I might need a snack. Or maybe I need a hug. I need to be alone. I need to well, it's

Casey O'Roarty 32:42
so interesting. When parents, you know, and we're encouraging them to be curious and ask questions. And I hear a lot from parents, you know, because there's that relationship piece too. And if the relationship is not great, it's hard to engage our adolescents. And oftentimes, when we get the I don't know, and I'm saying this out loud for all of you listeners to remember, just because you hear and I don't know, doesn't mean, you're done. Like, I don't know, when I get to hear I don't know, I will say, well think about it. And I'll ask you again later, or we'll notice next time, right? Pay attention to your body next time and see how it feels when Ian was younger. That was something that I used to say to him, and then I'd come circle back after he had another whatever moment. And he was like, ready, like, oh, yeah, I pay attention. You know, like, it's an invitation. And, you know, we don't live in a society that pays a lot of attention to below the neck. And so it makes sense that some of the questions that we're asking our kids they've never considered before. So the easiest, or they're thinking, oh, there's a right answer that you want to hear here. And I'm gonna protect myself by not giving any answer and saying, I don't know, right. So there's a lot of things going on there. And I love the internal noticing. Like that specific UI. It is hard for me to be with this right now. I love, love, love. I really

Susie Pettit 34:07
want to rush in and fix this. I really want to change this. I really, really want to come unglued. Yeah, and I guess one thing I understand that completely. And one of the reasons why we don't want to rush in and fix is that at this age, the consequences are much less than when they're older is one thing I keep wanting to point out, like we want them to learn these skills, how do they learn the skills to speak up to girls that are being little snots to them? Like we don't want them in future marriages of people being snotty to them and just being like, well, I guess I'll suck it up. Or well, I guess I did the wrong thing. I need to like we want them to learn the skill and be like, You know what, it's not okay for you to talk to me that way. Or you know what? Yeah, I'm not gonna.

Casey O'Roarty 34:48
The only way they learn those skills is by having their experiences and practicing those skills, which is so hard

Susie Pettit 34:55
for us mama so um, that's what you were saying. Like being that experience can be The experience,

Casey O'Roarty 35:00
right we get to grow and learn so much, which I know is your take, you know what you love about the work that you're doing? Parenting is such a rich opportunity. I mean, it is on some level, like a selfish situation because it's like, Oh, I get to I mean, I'm in my own movie, like everybody else gets to take their popcorn out, as well, because I'm the star of my movie. And I get to decide, is my character gonna evolve? Right? Or is it gonna get to the end like, oh, man, she had so many opportunities to grow. And she just wasn't willing, or she just didn't see it, you know? So I just love life unfolding. And obviously, you know, all of it is super fun.

Susie Pettit 35:48
No, no, it's not fun when you're sitting there watching them have these experience like, yeah, very uncomfortable

Casey O'Roarty 35:55
or being in your own. People move through divorces, people move through illnesses, like there's so much that shows up in life. And coming back to what you said that I love that place. Like, I want to live through the experiences of my life, with the belief that it's all happening for me that everything is working out. I don't get to know the how. I don't get to see the future. Right. But I get to trust that regardless of what unfolds, it's not meant to be that's not the right I don't write love that. Yeah, but it's happening. It's happening. Yeah,

Susie Pettit 36:35
I love Byron Katie's work, like don't argue with the past. It's always gonna win. You know, I mean, like, yeah, we're experiencing right now we're experiencing and whether we're like, Oh, my God, this shouldn't be happening. It's like, yeah, and it is hard to be in that place. I sometimes say to myself, well, I didn't see this coming. You know, like, it's just that instead of, it's like, Well, this was meant to be your sort of that like, blame on myself that like, Oh, you made this happen, Susie? No, I'm just trying to be in loving detachment with ourselves, too. Yeah, it's like, I didn't see this coming. This is interesting. Okay, you know, let's take some breaths and go with it. And ultimately, it really is to get out of the programming as women that we are meant to be of service to someone else. That is why we are here. No, it's not. We are here to follow our dreams and desires to fill ourselves up as people to evolve. We are parents. And so we get to do that to the best of our ability. And one way to do that is to really learn some of these tools and how to regulate our own emotions to have the experiences that we're having with our kid that is sitting there and traumatized and how to feel that because we're feeling empathetic people. It is hard, it is challenging, and how do I show up as my best self, so this kid can have their best self too. It is in all that skill building that we weren't taught.

Casey O'Roarty 37:52
Yeah, as kids. Oh, my God, I love geek.

Susie Pettit 37:54
I love it isn't good. It's like both and because it

Casey O'Roarty 38:00
was born. Yeah. Get your pockets, your popcorn people.

Susie Pettit 38:04
Some popcorn, take some deep breaths. Recognize it's like not my job to fix. It's not my job to be the director. Back, it's all working out. Let me see how this is gonna end up. Susie says it ends up really well. That's shocking. Because right now they're trudging through the desert. No one's talking to them and they failed all their classes.

Casey O'Roarty 38:25
For real, I've been in that desert before. This gonna work out. Really interesting to see. Oh, yeah, so hard. It's so good. There's just

Susie Pettit 38:38
one more piece I want to add to that you can use this in all your relationships, like I came up with it through the lovingly detached and then also the popcorn piece is something that comes up in narcissistic relationships. When you're in a relationship, like instead of trying to defend and engage, you just get your popcorn, you don't engage and it's much more of a not lovingly to tap into just a detachment from that experience that you're having. And yet you can use this like I use this with my husband, we are both life coaches, and just I was just poking fun at this interview coming up and he was telling me something he was doing in his business. And my brain of course, is like, yeah, that's wrong. You shouldn't be doing that, you know, whatever. And I'm like, okay, it all ends up well, like imagine like, the choices he's making are exactly the choices he needs to be making. Eat your friggin popcorn, so I've called it like popcorn, espousing popcorn, sistering popcorn. rending your friend is like, I'm

39:32
on a new diet, I'm

Susie Pettit 39:33
going to only eat you know, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, Okay, I think maybe you want to investigate estrogen because that like and we're just like, Okay, we're gonna like they're not asking for our advice. They didn't open their mouth and say, God,

Casey O'Roarty 39:44
I wish they would though.

Susie Pettit 39:47
And until you shove your mouth full of popcorn, it's like, oh, yeah, that's hard. I bet that'll help you guys,

Casey O'Roarty 39:55
I love popcorn like popcorn is my favorite. This is so Oh, so, so perfect. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for this conversation. This was so much fun. I'm so glad to connect with you. I can't wait to see you next year. I'm coming. Yeah,

Susie Pettit 40:11
I'm so really Yes, absolutely. I want to help you however you can get over here.

Casey O'Roarty 40:16
Well, my final question that I ask all my guests, as you know, is what does joyful courage mean to you? The

Susie Pettit 40:23
joyful courage is a feeling state in my body that just feels so grounded and free. And it takes courage to live joyfully and practice this popcorn parenting. It is that courage to live your own life to manage your own emotions and the joy that comes from that. I love it. I

Casey O'Roarty 40:42
cannot tell you how timely this conversation is like to the day really? Oh, yeah. Epic. Where can people find you and follow your work Susie? Well,

Susie Pettit 40:51
I would love if people are listening this podcast or podcast listeners. So I have the love your life show on you know, all the platforms. And I also if you have kids that are over the age of nine, I would love it if they took my 15 question life audit online, S M B well.com/life. Audit. I designed it for moms to sort of get the focus back on their own lives. And see you know, how they're doing what's going well where their strengths are and give them a little boost of what they're doing well, and then also to just bring some focus back into the life they're living because when moms are really paying attention to and supporting themselves and living a life that they love, everything else works well. Everything else. We are not looking to our kids to fill ourselves up and feel better about ourselves. We're not over living their life and under living our lives and I just would love it if people went over there and took that quiz and told me what their feedback was. Can

Casey O'Roarty 41:48
dads do it? Is it can anyone can do it. Anyone can do it. Okay, great. Yeah. Okay, there you go. Cuz I know I have my dads out there that do that. They tell me like Casey quit just talking to the moms. Yeah, we see you do I am talking to all Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Popcorn parenting for everyone. Popcorn

Susie Pettit 42:03
parenting for nieces and nephews, too, but the joy folkard? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 42:09
I have it feeling awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you

Casey O'Roarty 42:20
thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my spreadable partners as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at besproutable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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