Eps 497: Inclusivity through fashion with Elizabeth Brunner

What does joyful courage mean to you 

Being yourself fully and embracing yourself and loving yourself.  That’s what I strive to do all the time.  It’s not easy, but that’s something I strive to do all the time.  Be in full expression of yourself and who you truly are.

 

Resources

Stereotype Kids

Stereotype Kids Blog 

Stereotype Kids on Facebook

Stereotype Kids on Instagram

Stereotype Kids on Pinterest 

Stereotype Kids on TikTok

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Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
kids, wear, boys, clothing, brand, child, elizabeth, put, son, dress, express, unlearning, experience, fashion, girls, hear, people, labels, skirts, triggered
SPEAKERS
Elizabeth Brunner, Casey O'Roarty

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together. While parenting our tweens and teens. This is real work people and when we can focus on our own growth, and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey already I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at Sprout double. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around snap a screenshot posted on your socials or texted to your friends. Together we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:23
Hi, listeners. Welcome back to the show. Today's an interview and my guest is Elizabeth Brunner. Elizabeth is the founder of stereotype kids, which is a gender inclusive fashion brand that aims to promote individuality through clothing by removing the barriers of traditional gendered clothing. Her clothing line blends both boys and girls aesthetics to create a look that is unique as the child wearing it. Not only is Elizabeth a fashion expert and founder of a brand that's changing the fashion industry for kids. She's also the mom of boy girl twins, who inspired her brand by showing her that fashion doesn't have to be separated. Children should be able to wear whatever makes them feel most beautiful no matter what side of the story it's on. Elizabeth's inspiring story began when her twins were young and her son was interested in skirts and dresses and her daughter was interested in camo and baseball hats. She found that as a parent, it was most important to support her children and their expression of themselves and creativity through clothing no matter what society said they should be wearing. She also found that for boys, it's different girls wearing camo and baseball hats have been labelled as cute or tomboy. But boys wearing skirts and sparkly things is still seen as strange or different. She's on a mission to change this narrative with her clothing line and with her voice. As a mom, her investment in stereotype goes beyond founding a company. It's about building a community that's accepting of all individuals, and empowers all especially children to be who they truly, truly are. Hi, Elizabeth, welcome to the podcast.

Elizabeth Brunner 03:04
Thank you so much for that amazing intro. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 03:07
well, I'm so excited to hear more about your story. And so glad to be in conversation. You know, it kind of feels like oh, it's a clothing line, like cute, not a big deal. But really what you're doing your mission, your impact is really deep, a very deep and respectful offering to kids and families. Can you talk more, you kind of alluded to what was happening with your kids and what you were seeing out in the world? What was the inspiration? What else inspired you around the launch of this brand?

Elizabeth Brunner 03:37
Oh boy. I mean, it is very deep, as you said and pointed out and thank you for, again, that intro. You know, my kids really are such great teachers as all our kids are. And for me really just observing them without judgement was a really big lesson. So when they started sharing clothing at a young age, they're around four, I really noticed they were expressing with their bodies and their facial expressions when they would put on clothing that was for the other gender so and because I have a boy and girl it was very easy for them to have access to the clothing that they prefer to wear. So for my daughter, you know, putting on a baseball cap backwards wearing a sports jersey wearing camo pants, when she would put those things on she felt good and you could see it visibly. It wasn't about trying to look for someone else or, you know, get approval for me. It was her own way of expressing herself. And the same goes for my son for him. I remember so vividly him putting on a dress that my daughter wore to a wedding that was a family wedding and he asked if he could put it on and I said yes of course. So I put it on him. And he just spun around and spun around and spun around and for him that interaction with the fabric and the way it made him feel gave him such a sense of joy that it It really just sparked this idea in me that, you know, made me think, Well, why is this just for a girl? Well, no boy experienced this. And this capacity. Same for my daughter, you know, she loves sports jerseys. And this is how she prefers to dress. It really, you know, got me thinking about labels and the way that we do label our children, and that we need to unlearn those labels so that they can have a better existence and know themselves better as they're growing up. And so that's, I mean, a small state of where it started in it, it just evolved there. And I started just to learn more about my own limits, and where I was labelling myself and how to break through those barriers. So that's the beginning. And there's a lot more unlearning that happened from that. Hmm.

Casey O'Roarty 05:43
It's so funny. I remember having a conversation with one of my kids. And he was like, my boys get to wear pants and shorts. And girls get to wear pants and shorts, and skirts and dresses. And they have so many like he was tuned in to that difference at a very young age. And I have a story that I'm going to tell about that in a little bit as well, that kind of ties back into that unlearning, right, because I definitely have had my own journey in that. So your kids now are twins. Welcome to start of adolescence.

Elizabeth Brunner 06:15
Thank you, I think.

Casey O'Roarty 06:19
Don't worry, I've got a great podcast for you. And again, you said a boy and a girl. What do they think about? Look at me labelling? You have two kids? There we go. What do they think about your work? I was poking around on your website. And I see that you've named them as co founders. So how do they feel about that? And what is their involvement in the brand?

Elizabeth Brunner 06:40
I mean, it's so funny to even hear you say that. So they just to clarify, they do identify as a boy and a girl. So you can, please it's all in that if you feel comfortable. But they, you know, when I started with the idea I was, you know, they were around five, when I was like, oh, there might be something here, how would I do this, if I were to do it, I really had to talk myself into doing the brand, because I knew that it wasn't going to be easy. A I'm a mother of twins, this was not my plan, I had a very different plan in mind. And so this really came and disrupted that plan. And I really had to get my head around that first before I even could get to the point of making them co founders. But what I realised is it was such a unique opportunity for them. And so we know they inspire the brand that I from the very beginning. And they also have been a part of it from the very beginning. And because of the inspiration that they have provided with the way that they dress, they still share clothes to this day, they go in each other's drawers, and they pull out what they want to wear. And what's interesting is that that was just there from the beginning. And so having that as I was developing the idea for the brand, creating the clothing designing, I would ask them what they thought if they, you know, they could try things on if they you know, they could go play. And they really were there to test everything out there models online. So they are part of all the photoshoots. So it was a natural progression of they should be involved in the brand, because they are the inspiration. And they do help in so many small ways. It just seemed like a unique learning opportunity. And they're watching me create a dream come true, that's inspired by them. So it serves multiple purposes for them to be involved. And they just love it. I mean, they're very proud to be, you know, ambassadors to be co founders to be such a part of the brand. I mean, I was telling a friend recently that my daughter is probably going to be taking over the brand, because she's so just so happy to be involved in it the way that she is. And she feels a sense of pride that she tells people about it all the time without any sort of influence from me, she's very proud to say, Oh, I'm a co founder of my mom's clothing brand. And so it serves multiple reasons for them to be involved especially when it comes to you know, their self esteem and what they're learning as they're watching me on this entrepreneurial, messy entrepreneurial journey. So they see the highs, the lows, they see not everything of course I don't involve them in every single thing but enough for they know it takes dedication and I think that's really important for them to see. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 09:14
that is so cool.

Casey O'Roarty 09:22
I just think that's such a gift one to be a model the way that you are for them and what it can look like to follow your dream to have a dream and to follow it into fruition and then to have the practicality the practice the opportunity, however small to you know, have a voice and be on a team of decision makers. I think that's such a unique gift for kids to experience even if it's just like a lemonade stand out on the street versus you know, or something like your clothing brand. Were you into fashion. Was fashion a thing for you before you did this? Or was it out of now Wear.

Elizabeth Brunner 10:01
So I actually became interested in fashion as a child watching my mother so and I would collect her scraps when she would sew clothing and I would, you know, dress my dolls. And sometimes I would figure out a way to make something else for myself as I started to learn how to sew, but I am trained in fashion design, I went to school for fashion design, that is my trade. So that was also a unique opportunity. When I had the idea for the brand, I was like, Well, I can actually make the clothing, I can actually visualise and make the clothing. So that gave me a very unique opportunity to move ahead with the idea.

Casey O'Roarty 10:34
That's awesome. What does gender inclusivity mean to you?

Elizabeth Brunner 10:39
Well, I think the word inclusive says it all right, it's everyone is included. And, you know, I really am trying to be very careful with my wording, because I do want people to feel like they're included in what I'm designing. So I say that it's blended fashion, it's a mix of both boys and girls, where traditional boys and girls were to create a unique style that is your own. And that's what I aim to do. And so you know, creating and coining the term blended fashion is basically saying that boys and girls are equal in value. And that one is not better than the other. And one aesthetic is not better than the other. But if we blend them together, they become harmonious, which is why the boombox is also the logo, because it's about two channels coming together to create harmony. Again, it's a little deep by now, but that's where it all came from. And it all aligns for me in that way. And I tried to make that very clear with the way that I speak and also the way that I communicate through social channels. So it is inclusive, people are understanding what I'm doing with my brand.

Casey O'Roarty 11:40
Well, and I love the depth. I mean, that's what in so many with fast fashion and so many tech, I mean, my Instagram feed is full of it right? To have a depth and a mission. And I know your impact is that it's sustainable. And is it all made locally in San Francisco?

Elizabeth Brunner 11:57
It is right now. Yes.

Casey O'Roarty 11:58
I mean, all of that, right. All of that is contrary to what has become, you know, kind of the norm in a lot of ways in mainstream fashion. And so I think that is so powerful, and I love, you know, traditional gender expression. Still, I think very much, you know, I mean, gender is a spectrum. And so there's people on all the way from one end to the other. And it seems like that gender fluid space in the middle is just growing, which I think is really cool. I live in Bellingham, which is like a mini San Francisco and a lot of ways it's super liberal and progressive. And, you know, and especially around the LGBTQ community, not so much. I mean, it's pretty white up here. But as far as the LGBTQ community goes, it's super inclusive. And you know, when I'm out in the world at the grocery store, like I just see that, especially with the Gen Zers. There's so much fluidity. What are you learning as you show up for these kids and families through your brand through stereotyped kids? What has been surprising to you to learn? Oh,

Elizabeth Brunner 13:05
boy, there's been so many surprising and wonderful moments. I think one of the biggest surprises, but shouldn't be a surprise is that I hear a lot of adults saying without children, I wish this clothing line was around when I was a kid, because I wanted to wear pink as a young boy. And my mom said no. And now as an adult, I finally bought myself a pink pair of shoes or whatever the item is. And same for for women I hear, you know, I wish this clothing brand was around for myself because I didn't want to wear skirts and I was made forced to. So I think it's really hitting a lot of people in many different ways. And you know, my main mission is that we are all individuals and should be treated as such. And we should be able to express ourselves and that way as well, individually, however, that looks and our children know this better than anyone, right? They're so free spirited. And at such a young age at for my kids, they were in pure expression, they are not out to impress anyone, they're not trying to do something for someone else. It's purely coming from a sense of joy. And we can all learn from that we learned to tune that out as we become adults when we grow up, because we're trying to fit into society and societal norms. And that's not actually normal. That's not how we're meant to be. We're meant to be expressive. And so for me, it became that was the start of a massive unlearning. For me, it doesn't mean that I still don't get tripped up in norms, you know, but I think for me, I understand that there's a limit there and that there's a limit to move beyond. And so that's also been really powerful for me as not just a entrepreneur but as a mother and as a human that's evolving in this world of how do I want to express myself and what does that mean? And just being able to uncover that in yourself is also such a gift for your kids because if they can see that you're working on yourself, and I don't mean like litter Really, but I just mean, like they're aware of what you're doing and how you're being out in the world that's also very powerful and inspiring for kids. So it's such a big question. And I hope I answered it enough for you. But I feel like it's revealing itself to me all the time that it's been impactful in many different ways.

Casey O'Roarty 15:17
I'm thinking back, I'm remembering when my son was four, I believe he was four in this memory. And it was Thanksgiving, and my kids are almost three years apart. And he's the younger one. But he's always been the same size and adores his big sister. And now they're 21 and 18. And they still are really tight. And I remember, we were all ready to go to Thanksgiving. And out he comes. And he's wearing Rowan's tights, and you know, in a Christmas dress from the year before. And I mean, Elizabeth and listeners, I'm going to be totally honest and vulnerable here. I was like, No, you can't wear that to Thanksgiving. And I was so shocked by my own. It was like this visceral gut response that I am not proud of at all. Even then I was like, why am I saying this? What is happening for me right now. But being confronted by that, by such a non trick, you know, and when we were just playing around in the house, I wouldn't even have batted an eye, that kid loves dress up. He was always in his sister's clothes, like mostly because it would give her if she would pay attention to him if she got to dress him up and stuff. But because we were going to see family, and I didn't know how family would response like the the response came so fast. And I bring this up, because I think that unlearning. I don't think we even realise the depth of conditioning that exists inside of us until something that confronts it sits down at the table. And it's like, oh, you know, I also had a kid, my oldest dropped out of high school. And I was like, Oh, shit, I am like, I'm having a full body experience with this, you know, and you know, all that to say that we get to be really curious about how we're responding to our kids. And I'm speaking directly both to parents who are listening whose kids are in their own exploration of gender, whether it's just expression, or if it's, you know, truly, you know, having the experience of questioning their biology is a match with their actual gender, but also to people that whose kids aren't in that exploration, but maybe their friends are walking in the door, or maybe they're talking about what they're seeing at school or hearing about at school, I think it's so important for us to question our opinions and our responses, because so much of it is just been developed over time through conditioning. And it's not real. Like you said, this isn't actually how humans are designed to be humans are designed to be in their fullest expression. And to be enjoy. Yes, right. And my son was in so much joy, and I shot that shit right down. Yeah, and I'm here to say that I learned a lot that day, and we've recovered. But yeah, it was really surprising to me, it was really surprising to me, has there been anything for you where you've really been? I mean, you've spoken a little bit about the unlearning. But do you have any specific stories where you really kind of got to see oh, this is the thing for me that I get to explore.

Elizabeth Brunner 18:19
Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for sharing that story. I think it's super relatable or saying, but it's very relatable because we are triggered into a reaction. And most of the time, our brain doesn't have time to really think that reaction through. So we just react and and then later we're like, oh, shit, like you said, I wish I hadn't said, done whatever it is. And I've certainly been there many, many times. And what I'll say about your experience, too, that I can also relate to is that when you're triggered in that way, for me, I have had moments with my son in particular, because my daughter has never had a bad experience dressing up in a quote unquote, Tomboy Look, she's never other than people saying She looks cute. No negativity has come to her in regards to words or people reacting to her. But when my son wore a dress, or something more feminine, or a skirt, whatever it was, he would get side glances, people would whisper point, just things that are just, I mean, a lot of the times he didn't notice, but some of the times he did. And it took me a long time to not be triggered by that. But what I'll say about your reaction, and that I've heard as well as that, you go into protection mode, because you're thinking of the outside world, you're not thinking of what's happening for your son in that moment, which you said yourself and I experienced is this is pure joy. I'm witnessing. He's happy, like he feels good and what he's wearing, he thought he looked good, you know, and then he shut down and that is a deep deep conditioning that we get from society, right? They're societal norms. The societal norm says a boy should not wear a dress because they're made technically for girls, but those are arbitrary rules. And you know, and for me, it took time for me to get around that and to learn with my son, specifically to say to him, I remember an instance when he came home from an after school programme and had a dress a box, and he put on a princess gown. And he came home and he said, Mommy, I put on this gown and another boy came over to me and said, You can't wear that. You're a boy, that's for girls. And so he took it off. And he told me about it. And I looked at him and I said, Jacob, that boy doesn't know. You can wear whatever you want. But I do and you do. So you can wear whatever you want. You don't need that person's permission, you don't need you know anyone else to know that you know that. So for me in those moments, when I would just feel triggered to have like, Who is this boy Tell me his name? Who would not get into the like, scorched earth reaction? Yeah, I have to take a beat and roll back that emotion because that is the reality for that child. And I'm not judging anyone. I'm not saying you need to go put your boy and address and you need to put your daughter in camo No, no, I'm not saying any of that. What I'm saying you need to back

Casey O'Roarty 21:11
fuck off my enemy open? Well, yeah, it's I'm saying, like loud and clear people like, yeah.

Elizabeth Brunner 21:25
I think there's many layers to it as well, right? It triggers a lot of things, your own emotional, maybe wounds from childhood where you couldn't wear something or express yourself in a certain way. So it's passed down. And that's where we get into the whole, you know, generational sort of trauma of things. But for me, it was a learning experience and a teaching moment for my son to reframe his negative experience into something reaffirming for him, which is that child does not know. But you do, you know, and I know you can wear whatever you want. And so for him, you know, that changed his expression from sad and down to happy and excited because he was reaffirmed in what he was doing. And that's really what our children need. And that's what they maybe don't ask for out loud. But that is what our children need. And so for me, it was stepping back, observing my behaviour, observing what's triggering me. And I also had moments where I'm like, take that off. Don't put those shorts on, or whatever it is. And you know, those are things I have to practice and get in tune with myself. Like, Where's that coming from? Where is that seed planted? Is it real? Is it not real? You know, and a lot of that just comes from a self reflection, you have to be able to self reflect in order to get to that level of removing the barrier.

Casey O'Roarty 22:46
Well, and it's like, we just want them to be safe. Yes. Right. I mean, I'm thinking even about our girls and the tiny clothes. Yeah, right. And I remember being in such conflict with myself, you know, even Rowan, my daughter being like, You are confusing, because I would say, you know, yeah, your body, your choice. I mean, you get to decide how you look. And there are people in the world that are going to look at you a certain way. And that's their problem. But keep them in mind. But you know, and just like being inside of and ultimately wanting her to be safe. Yes, absolutely. We should exist in a world where you can express and be whoever you are. And we also live in a world with people who are dangerous, right? Both of those things, you know, it's just we aren't quite there yet. And it's so interesting, right? It's so interesting that in this one domain, there's this freedom for girls, and there's this restriction for our boys to express. I mean, hello, patriarchy. Thanks for that. I

Elizabeth Brunner 23:50
was gonna say, Yes,

23:52
patriarchy. Totally. Which

Elizabeth Brunner 23:55
is repressing boys to write repression and boys. It's not so important boys. Yeah, right. Sorry. Great.

Casey O'Roarty 24:01
No, no, it's okay. I remember my son coming home, maybe like second grade and saying, Mom, do you know that a lot of boys don't like Justin Bieber, like, my son was a hardcore Justin Bieber fan. Like he even bought himself a Justin Bieber Barbie doll that like he pushed the button and he sang a song. We were huge Justin Bieber household, and it broke my heart when he realised like, Oh, I gotta keep this under wraps, because I could get teased. Because he's not typically, you know, I mean, I think there are probably lots of little boys that love Justin Bieber, but he got to a certain age where that kind of shifted and it became something that was you know, we would blast it in our house and blast it in the minivan and sing along. But man, it's so sad to me. It's so sad to me. So as your kids move into adolescence, I know they're just taking their baby steps in Are you seeing like the shift because you know teen brain development also comes with evermore self awareness of consciousness. Are you seeing Anything with your kiddos or with even the kids that you serve with your brand? What are you noticing, you know, from the little kid days to now being in this tween space? Well,

Elizabeth Brunner 25:11
I'm noticing, obviously a lot of hormone changes, mood changes, things like that with my own kids, which is pretty natural. And we've set up time and discussions about that, so that they know there's an open door there. I think, in general, with my clothing brand, I mean, it's not something I can definitely pinpoint. But I think having the offering of clothing between four and 14 does serve a particular niche of that self discovery. So that is what I focus on. And that is what I talked about, and I promote as part of my mission. And so I just, you know, reiterate that as much as I possibly can, when I am in social channels, when I'm writing blog posts, when I'm doing podcasts, interviews, is really supporting the whole child and saying the whole child, that doesn't mean there isn't going to be conflict within yourself as a parent and also within your child, especially as they become more aware of the world, my kids are certainly more aware of the world and, and then not everybody is friendly, and is going to love you. And that is heartbreaking. But it is our current reality. And I think it's good to, you know, offer them a safe space in your home to express themselves however they need to. And if they feel the need to, you know, change that as they leave the home or venture out into middle school, high school, whatever that is that they they know, they can make the choices that are best for them to keep themselves safe or, you know, feel more, I guess, protected and what they want to express out into the world. So I mean, I wish I had a really great answer for this. But I think it's really just I'm going with the flow as much as I can. I'm trying to be very open with my kids and, and just continue to support them and the way that they need to be seen and and heard.

Casey O'Roarty 26:58
Yeah, well, that's something that I talk a lot about on this show. Lately, I've been saying the most important thing is, don't make it worse, like an adolescence Don't make it worse. But even inside of that is, you know, doing everything you can to be sure that your child experiences acceptance from you, and your work. And your story is such a powerful example of what that can look like. And we don't all everyone, we don't all have to start a clothing brand to do that. Right. But I'm really just hearing you, Elizabeth speak into just full acceptance. And I love the conversation around joy, right? Because when we get to be fully ourselves, that is where joy lives. And you know, you've created this beautiful opportunity in this beautiful resource to include all the kids, right? And feeling that joy and feeling themselves and I love that picture of your son in his what is the shirt say, now I'm gonna look me is all I want to be me as all I want to be. I mean, come on. That is like, Could you imagine if every human on the planet like that was their credo like world peace done? Right? Like, come on me is all I want to be. So thank you so much for the work that you do. Is there anything that you want to leave the listeners with? Before we wrap up? Well, thank

Elizabeth Brunner 28:20
you so much for the interview. And for that as the tagline means only want to be for the brand. And yeah, I would like to add one other thing. This clothing brand is not just about kids, it's about adults, and being curious about yourself and moving beyond barriers that are there that really aren't their society is put into place or that somehow you've managed to put into place, you are still learning and growing. And you can find your joy. And please be curious about yourself. Because once you can, you can turn that on and discover new parts of yourself. Your whole world opens up and your bond with your child gets deeper and deeper. So I just really encourage that for not just parents but for all adults.

Casey O'Roarty 29:01
Yes, I have the chills right now. Elizabeth, thank you for that, because that's something that I speak into a lot here is our own personal growth and development and curiosity. And so thank you for being another voice in that song. I appreciate it. My last question that I asked my guests is What does joyful courage mean to you? Well,

Elizabeth Brunner 29:23
being yourself fully in yourself and embracing yourself to and loving yourself. So that's what I strive to do all the time. It's not easy, but you know, that is something I strive to do all the time. Just being in full expression of yourself who you truly are. Yes.

Casey O'Roarty 29:39
Where can people find you and follow the brand and see you on social and where are you? So

Elizabeth Brunner 29:44
our website is stereotyped. kids.com our Instagram is stereotyped kids official, and our Facebook page is also stereotype kids. So please look out for us

Casey O'Roarty 29:56
there. Yeah, and I'll put the link in the show notes. I was also going to I mentioned earlier that all of us Gen X parents, I think I'm a little bit older than you, Elizabeth. All of us Gen X parents are like yes to the boombox right?

Elizabeth Brunner 30:09
No, I am. Yeah, I'm a child of the 80s. So box is definitely a representation of that. So thank you for Love it. Love it. Thanks

Casey O'Roarty 30:19
so much for hanging out with me today.

Elizabeth Brunner 30:21
Thank you so much, Casey, it was great.

Casey O'Roarty 30:30
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my Sproutable partners as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at www.besproutable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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