Eps 463: Perspective and imperfection – The Art of Connected Parenting, part 3

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SPEAKERS
Alanna Beebe, Casey O'Roarty, Julietta Skoog

Casey O'Roarty 00:03
Hey everybody, welcome to the joyful courage podcast a place for information and inspiration on the parenting journey. Just wanted to give you a heads up that from now until the 11th of March, the podcast is being taken over, we've got a limited series happening, you're going to hear about it in just a moment, the art of connected parenting so still the same deep value that you get every Monday here on the joyful coach podcast, but we will be sharing the limited series art of connected parenting for the next little while. And the good news is this limited series is good for all parents, young kids all the way through the teen years. So check it out and enjoy

Casey O'Roarty 00:56
Hey, everybody, welcome back to our super special podcast series, The Art of connected parenting, where the founders of Sproutsocial are coming together to talk about the power of up levelling, how we think about and understand our roles and relationships with our kids. Just to remind you of who we are I'm Casey over 30 Host of the joyful courage podcast positive discipline lead trainer mom adolescent lead it's profitable with me are Alana Beebe, our Managing Director you can wave to the people there you go brilliant mama and positive discipline parent educator and my sister from another mister Julietta school, also a mom, early years lead and positive discipline trainer, we're so excited to continue to dig into this work with all of you, thank you for being here. And listening in and watching our web series set. When we call it video extraordinaire. We'll see what we're going to call it. The last episode, we dug into the ways shame and guilt and self doubt and fear show up and get in the way of who we want to be for our kids and how we show up for them. Check it out. If you missed it. It's a really useful conversation. This week, we're talking about shifting our perspective and embracing imperfection so we can learn and grow as parents in humans. Ladies. Hi, here we are. Yeah, I know. How do you feel about this topic?

Julietta Skoog 02:23
Oh, it's so meaty. I mean, it's everything. I feel right. And I think it's really the shift as we move. It's a really nice segue from the conversation around shame and guilt and self doubt. Because when we can let those pieces as we talked about kind of dissolve in the petri dish of empathy as we ended our last podcast, then that's when we get to start embracing the imperfection. That's when we get to say it is messy. There's always going to be those challenges. And what are they trying to inform us?

Casey O'Roarty 02:56
Yeah,

Alanna Beebe 02:58
yeah, it's opportunity to really for me, it's like, where all the fun work happens, right? It's where we really get to get excited and interested and curious and be scientists and you know, navigate that. Oh, no.

Casey O'Roarty 03:11
Yeah, I think about, you know, I like to talk about the teenagers. And for me, when I think about embracing imperfections, it goes back to that messiness, messy terrain conversation, right? Like, I mean, I want to say especially, but I know, it's not especially so I'll just say in the teen years, you know, there's teen brain development happening, there's novelty seeking, there's pulling away from parents, there is learning to be an adult, you know, for the first time first heartbreaks, right first sneaking around, maybe first lie that we're telling, like first like, oh, look what I can do. And I really appreciate just holding all of that as typical developmentally appropriate behaviour, because it allows me to be with it without freaking out, you know, and my kid, my kids, talked a lot about Rohn. But I want you to find details of the end. But he's absolutely a typical teenager, right? And when we make that challenges list, as many of you have done, our classes, start with lists of challenges, all the things pretty much that come up on the list of challenges or things that have shown up in my house with my kids. And there's something really sweet that can happen when we're not in resistance. Right? Right. We're not in resistance of the challenges, but we really follow through with what we invite parents into which is how can these be opportunities to teach model and practice life skills and when we're in freakout mode, or in resistance, there's no space for that, right?

Julietta Skoog 04:53
So funny that you caught yourself being like, especially in the teenage years, because I immediately go to how messy the earlier As are and

Alanna Beebe 05:00
two, three for the emotional brain development,

Julietta Skoog 05:05
I was just thinking about how you feeling Dr. Siegel says right? Not the terrible twos, the terrible threes and the effing fours.

Casey O'Roarty 05:11
Does he say that that thing for us? Is that where that came from? Because I want it Sure.

Julietta Skoog 05:15
I'm pretty sure that's where I Yeah, scientists scratch. It's not him that it was Tina Bryson for sure. Okay. But the idea also, when I like with my own four year old to be like, Oh, here it is, and not be so in resistance to that. Like, we would never think of a four year old having a tantrum or being surprised by a tantrum right, when these early years. And so why are we surprised the teenagers when they do some of these things? Yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 05:40
It's like, Yeah,

Alanna Beebe 05:41
I like this idea. You talk about Julieta in your classes. And Casey, you might talk about this, too. But I've been to a lot of Juliet's classes, and not as many of cases, I love a teenager yet, so I'm coming. But this idea of like, fake it till you make it, right, we might not be able to quiet that voice of shame and fear and guilt all the time. But when we have some of this understanding of development, or what's happening for our kids, then we can quiet it down enough to then dig into mistakes or opportunities to teach and learn. You know, yeah. And so fake it till you make it right. It's a practice. It's like, sometimes you're really on it. And sometimes you're not so on it, sometimes it's easier. Sometimes it's not sometimes you have just missed the boat for so long, because you've been living in Your Fears Day, and then it just hits the wall, and you're like, oh, wait, this is where I actually want it to be all this time before, you know, and that's okay.

Julietta Skoog 06:30
And that part. I mean, it really is like, you've got to climb on board of the embracing the challenges. I mean, that is exactly why we do this day, one of any single class because, and I've talked about this a lot with sibling conflict, too, that you've got to embrace the conflict you have just like, except there used to be these challenges and use it harness that, you know, it's not easy. I Yeah, exactly. That's why even if you're faking until you make it because you're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard. I'm feeling the feels here, I'm unsteady, and when we have that compass of okay, and this is we get to use this to explore, grow, etc, then, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 07:12
well, and I don't say fake it till you make it. But I do talk a lot about like, okay, you don't know what to say you don't know what to do. Breathe it out. Breathe it out. And the in your back pocket. One of my favourite go to responses is Tell me more. Which I know you say no, that's universal, but it's like, tell me more about that. Right is such a powerful place to gather information, which is also useful. Yeah, and embracing imperfection. Because when imperfection, slash misbehaviour, slash mischief slash fill in the blank shows up, we immediately go into this place of making assumptions. What is we make meaning right? What does this mean about my kid? What does this mean about me? What does this mean about the future, and without all the information, it's a useless endeavour to sit inside of that meaning making?

Julietta Skoog 08:01
Well and I think we're I lean into the that particular like, fake it till you make it is around this idea of connection with our kids. And if so many parents were like, I don't feel the connection, I don't want to connect I don't want I'm so irritated right now, just in the messiness of the transition of the getting them to bed, bathtub and getting their jammies on and brushing their teeth, I don't want to find the fun, I don't want to connect with them. And so it's that part where I'm like, really understanding Alright, embracing the messiness that is the after dinner routine. And, you know, trusting that connection is the way and so finding that one little bit that you can do of just simple like in the connection, exactly. You know, the one thing that they're super into, and then that little way of just that piece of like, do you want to play Paw Patrol as we run? Or do you want to be the blu rays car the right you know, that one little bit, even as you're like swallowing the pill of just irritation that might open that little bit of a window?

Casey O'Roarty 09:04
Or you've watched a documentary about little baby? Oh, what's the little baby little baby? The rapper out of that connection? Yeah, I have. Yeah, that is not my genre of music. And Ian is super into rap. And he doesn't want to watch what I want to watch. And but if I'm like, Sure, he's like, you want to watch a documentary? A Better Rapper? Yeah, let's watch it. And guess what? It's usually pretty fascinating. That's right. And a great conversation starters. Right? So I guess Yeah, so that is a thing. Yeah. Especially that connection piece because I think as they get older, it's a different like, you know, I'm still encouraging parents to get to know they're growing people. They're growing kids. Yeah. And it's like, oh, we're going into the same things.

Julietta Skoog 09:49
So why no telling what Yes. Well, I think that's word personally people baby and also that there's a lot of this. I get it you Otherwise, I'm just not a fun person. I'm just not very playful. And Ilana to your point around the neuroscience and when we can understand that this is how human beings feel safe when we felt connected to when we feel sane when our brain is in play mode for the littles. Yeah. Kids

Alanna Beebe 10:17
learn through play. They learn through relationship in play. Yeah. So

Julietta Skoog 10:20
that kind of rigidity or resistance. Yeah, or block. That's a big word. That's big, you know. And so that is kind of that step one. Like that's the first I think that's really the place that we begin. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 10:36
What do you have stories that you can share? I know that you do. Oh, girl about embracing imperfection? Yeah.

Alanna Beebe 10:42
Well, I could start Yeah, I can start with my story. Because you're just gonna relate to us. Alright. I'll start with my story. So yeah, this happened recently. So my kid loves soccer, love soccer, soccer, soccer, soccer all the time. And talk about you know, things that, you know, this is where we don't connect. Like, I'm not a big sports person. I don't play soccer. I'm not like into like, big like, body movement, and blah, blah, blah. Like I want to connect over making dinner together or like colouring or like, you know, listening to stories with your warm coffee and walk around the lake. You know, this sounds great to me. And my kids, like, let's run and throw knives and

Alanna Beebe 11:29
like, Oh my god. So intense. All right.

Alanna Beebe 11:33
So anyway, so soccer is like not something that you know, we really connected on but something that I love to support, right? For my kids. My kid loves soccer, loves sports. And we go to I believe this is Game two or three of this year's soccer season. And the first game, they just lose terribly, like just get crushed, you know, like 20 to zero, maybe one I don't know, just get totally crushed. And so halfway through the game, and we'll say the second one second or third, something like that. Espen just comes out just so frustrated, just like these kids, like they're not focused. They don't want to play down with this. I can't play this anymore. This is not fun. Soccer is not fun. I hate it. You know, just pissed, you know. So everything in me is like, you are going to change this face. You love soccer. You are gonna get back out there with those kids, you are not giving up. This is not okay. All these parents are watching you have this experience. And I'm fucking up, you know, right? Like everything's happening in your head is happening in my head. In my head. That's not what I say at all. Instead, I like take a breath, sit there for a second. So it'll take some a little bit to respond. Because I'm just like, sitting in it. You know, I was like, All right, well, there's bench over here. Let's go sit down. Looks like you know, you're really upset. You're really frustrated. Let's go sit and watch what's going on. You know, it's have our feelings. Feelings are okay. You don't have to play right now. Can you play right now? You seem pretty upset. I wouldn't be okay. If I was really upset. Like, let's calm down. Right? So it's like this processing right? Of, whoa, this feels like a behaviour that I don't want to see my kid like, all of a sudden, you know, I can go down this path of fear of like, oh my gosh, my kid's gonna give up as soon as things are hard, you know, they're never gonna be a team player. They only care if it's good, blah, blah, blah. Like, I need them to follow through on this because it's the rest of their life is coming. Yeah, they said they were going to

Casey O'Roarty 13:27
be on the team. They agreed. Yeah.

Alanna Beebe 13:32
And when I say I'm gonna do something I always follow through because it's important, you know, like, but you know, so anyway, this is like, this is the time to practice those things, right? So when it is really important, you can follow through because you've had this practice of not right, that area, you've had this practice of like being in that moment, and being validated. So instead, right, instead of going this longer story, it's like, okay, right now, this is how you're feeling. And that's valid. And sometimes we feel that way. And sometimes we are frustrated, because things aren't working out, right? How are we going to keep showing up? What are we going to do?

Alanna Beebe 14:06
So we just sat out the rest of the game, we watched the rest of the game, had feelings, everything. And then at the end, I was like, Hey, we got to show up for our team. You know, we're gonna go up there, high five, everyone, you know, and say goodbye. We can't just bounce out, right? This is something that's important in our family that we value, we got to say goodbye. And thank you, you know, so as Ben gets together, goes in and does that and comes back out and was like, pretty upset still about soccer and doesn't want to go back. And then we got to process, you know, that whole story, which I don't need to go into, because we'll talk a little bit more. But the idea behind this is just that, you know, it's like not taking that moment and making it the everything, right, and I'm ploughing into the whole future of my child, right? Who knows, maybe my kid will become a professional soccer player. But in that moment, right, they hated soccer and it was the worst thing ever and that's okay. And they're six and they're Six. Yeah. And that's all right. You know, and even though they're professional artists, that's alright. It doesn't matter. It wasn't the point of the soccer, it was the point of Esben wanted to know that when they are upset and feeling those feelings that there's space for them, as well as feelings, you know, like we were talking about before. So then it's that opportunity to be like, Okay, what skill is missing here? What do we need to work through? How can we help and support each other? Because I know ask them love soccer, right?

Julietta Skoog 15:25
I know they're suffering. And in that moment, if you were like, Oh, come on, what do you mean, you love soccer? Yeah, we're just we've only got one game. Get back out there. Yeah, there was no opportunity for Aspen to even see the difference in perspective. Exactly. If you wouldn't have given that space to feel the feelings.

Alanna Beebe 15:39
Exactly.

Casey O'Roarty 15:40
Nobody wants to be on a team that sucks. No, no.

Alanna Beebe 15:44
You know, no, of course, not. Everyone was

Casey O'Roarty 15:48
in basketball, you know? Yeah. And that

Julietta Skoog 15:49
fix it feeling too. I mean, that moment is up here, where you just kind of want to fix it for them to I mean, just that space to pause and hold and like, don't make any sudden moves. You know? Yeah, no big changes when people are flooded. Like, just that part. Like, we can't actually take a different perspective until we're settled. Yeah, so we actually brain drain is that, yeah, have to like, figure it out, or do anything or make the call? Well, I

Casey O'Roarty 16:15
love that you didn't abandon Espen. Because of the internal dialogue around, there's an audience, there's a right thing to do. There's judgement, like, you didn't abandon your kids. And I did a podcast with somebody and we're talking about as mothers, sometimes we get so hardcore into our role as mother that we abandon ourselves. And I just, that's such an interesting way of thinking about it. But you know, sometimes those imperfections when we get in our head around that external audience, we do abandon our kids, for the sake of like, what saving our own face or showing up in a way that we think everybody else thinks we should show up. And I mean, the last people we should be abandoning is

Julietta Skoog 17:04
our kiddos. Yeah, that's great. That's so interesting. I mean, I think this narrative to around like, you know, kind of Whose side are you on? Yeah, you know, yeah, like, Holly's annoying kids. And they're so like, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 17:22
Oh, yeah. Teenagers, right? Ages, or they're all idiots like the conversation around teenagers. Breaks my heart, right? No wonder they're like, Screw you guys.

Julietta Skoog 17:29
Yes. And this idea around, oh, look at that, as you're aligning with the other grown ups, you know, versus like, this is my kid. And this is what my kid needs right now.

Casey O'Roarty 17:41
Yeah. So tell us your story. Well, it's

Julietta Skoog 17:43
I mean, as I hear this idea around perspective taking and who they're going to be forever. So we had one of our COVID stories was just as everyone when everything shut down, we are all home. So we had a three year old and eight year old and an 11 year old. And that hit right at a great juncture for the three year old to be being a three year old. Right? So we lost preschool. We had just moved rooms. So they were sharing a room. And the three and the eight year old three and the eight year old because the 11 year olds had finally gotten her room. I did say a side story. I was like, if you can potty train her, then you can get your own room, which she did in a week. She was like, alright, yeah, no problem. Like, that's great. So all of a sudden, we started seeing a lot of big behaviours, obviously. We're all stressed. I mean, stressed and away not, you know, not stressed, but just like what's happening in the world? Yeah, it was stressful. It was stressful. It was just an isolating and we were navigate you and I, Alana, we're navigating our work situation. Zoom wise. I had like the idea of working from home. John's teaching pee in the basement. We have two kids who are going to online school and then I'm trying to keep it three year old. So everyone's navigating this. So we started seeing this uptick in behaviours, destruction, tearing stuff down getting her sister staff, we would say you know, up the sunscreen is only for outside only when we're getting outside and she would look right at us and just squeeze the tube out as she's on the kitchen table. And like drop it. You know, I mean, just hitting not sleeping bunny in the nap seeing me right Amy and her sisters are like, Oh my gosh, she's the worst of again. Oh my gosh, she messed this up. I'm like, oh my god, she drew the wall. No. Dogs like Alicia, she peed in the corner. Like, just it's like total chaos. But everybody is annoyed. We're like, you know, over and over. It's like we're gonna Yona Yona. Well, you know, it's just like, we can't even catch up. So I just said, Whoa, all right, what's happening here? And so I thought to myself, What would I say in my class and so I took a page out of my own playbook, the old positive Islam playbook. And we put up a big piece of poster paper, and drew the picture of the iceberg, which is really what we're talking about here. And this metaphor in positive discipline of what are we seeing what is the behaviour that we're seeing, and what is underneath the iceberg is the solution to a problem that we don't see. So what's going on for this three year old what's going on for this year, six year old and soccer, you know, this is the behaviour that we're seeing, but really what's going on underneath it. And so just physically taking that perspective shift. And for me saying this is a chance for my 11 year olds and my eight year old to also have some shifts in perspective to have some empathy to understand. And for us to really have that third party visual exercise without Leona, so there wasn't a shame, especially at that age, not understanding.

Casey O'Roarty 20:46
I think it's so wise that VI and Josephine were a part of this, like what you just said, I think, deserves to be highlighted, because so often there's the one kid that's the hard kid and the parents try to work with that one kid and then the other kids meanwhile, I like ah, always the problem always getting attention. Always. You know that that that? I love that you brought the older sisters in? Yeah, to solve this as well? Well,

Julietta Skoog 21:12
and we have that stepping stone of family meetings, that's always been a fabric of our family is yours, too. And so this idea of okay, what is really going on, and we don't have to solve it. Let's just figure out what's all the stuff that's going on and evidence gathering information. That's exactly right. And just that process, you could feel the shift for everyone have been like, She's three. She's living in an eight year olds room. Third kid, we did no training around, like, what stuff is hers and what's not just, it was literally an eight year olds room. We're like, Alright, you're good. We set it as COVID. She's not napping. She's lost her sweet little preschool where they get to do art every day and draw and all she's watching is the four of us. I mean, that to perspective of what are they seeing through their eyeballs for other humans who are putting sunscreen on and writing stuff and picking stuff up and moving quickly and only right, and there, she was just being a little busy by yourself around the house, you know?

Casey O'Roarty 22:12
So right now on this wall.

Julietta Skoog 22:16
This stuff over here and exploring just through your job is to explore, you know, so this idea of just not feeling seen. Everyone else is just so busy. What about me? So all of these things, when we just played with what is that really helped shift the perspective for us to say, Okay, so let's address those things. That's the quote unquote, problem. You know, it's not her behaviour. It's what are these other things that we as a family can explore?

Casey O'Roarty 22:44
Yeah. Yeah. Talk about a perspective shift. Right. And I'm also hearing you speak into that, embracing imperfection, and even the word imperfection. bugs me right now. Because there was nothing imperfect about Leona, just like there's nothing in perfect. It's like embrace. Yeah, that scene. Yeah. But I do think there is some validity in that word, imperfect, or the idea of perfection, because, for me,

Julietta Skoog 23:10
it brings up this need to control. And when things are out of control, which was like, as if we can get to perfect, right, exactly as COVID is was I mean, that idea of just control control control. But when we can just embrace the messiness embrace the illusion that we don't have control. That's when we can shift our perspective.

Casey O'Roarty 23:30
Yeah. Like we have a choice, right? We have a choice, I think, that we don't always realise we have in the moment, but we have a choice on how we are holding or considering what it is that we're moving through with our kids, right? We can sit inside of the negative like this sucks. They're out of control, dead in a ditch, wherever your mind goes, right? This is the worst. Or we can sit inside of the positive. What's going on? What are the possibilities? What am I learning? What are they learning? Right? So what do you see as benefits? Let's talk a little bit about the benefits of not only taking a more positive perspective on the mischief and behaviour that is appropriate yet annoying, and how do we get there? I really want listeners and the people that are watching to have a takeaway around Okay, that's all great. You're saying take a positive approach. But what does that look like when we're kind of inundated by messaging around? Things should look a certain way? Does that make sense?

Julietta Skoog 24:36
Yeah, what comes up for me is just this piece around having their back like that. It's not about this like toxic positivity and like, Oh, great. Like now we get like this opportunity. Like sometimes I do. Sometimes I do do that. I am excited. So just you got to you know, accept me and I'm okay. I am gonna get on my flip chart and get pumped up. You know, are doing but I do think it is a D per piece of like, have their back be their ally be their advocate. Like and not just you know, because they're so annoying, just like put them on iPads or whatever. Or it

Alanna Beebe 25:10
seemed like the power struggle idea. Yes. Like, if you let go of your into the power struggle, there's no power struggle anymore. Same thing like just like take your ownership of what you're contributing into the situation.

Julietta Skoog 25:20
Yes. Perspective. Exactly. And so that he's around like the choice, I think, is that part of the control and that we hear this a lot this just kind of vibe with parents. It's easier for me, obviously, to hear it for others. I'm sure I have this too. But this thing of like, Willie, did you that Willie did try that? Will I do you know? And it doesn't work?

Casey O'Roarty 25:42
Like where does that leave us? That leaves us in there just rotten? They're just a dud. Why do

Casey O'Roarty 25:47
we want to sit there?

Julietta Skoog 25:48
So there is a belief shaft. And Dr. Becky does a really great job of this. I'm so happy that her work is out there around just the concept of good insight. By

Casey O'Roarty 25:57
the way, Dr. Becky, if you're listening Julieta and I are both available for interviews on your podcast, go on.

Casey O'Roarty 26:04
But this is a belief shoot, like when you say How can parents get there it is you do have to believe it, you have to believe you know, in your heart that this isn't just a little annoying kid that's going to just I just have to wade out this stage or they're a nuisance, or what a drag, you know, get my attention. They're just trying to manipulate me, right.

Casey O'Roarty 26:27
So I need some help from you guys. So I do have a very special client who I adore is a part of my community. And we talked about like I even wrote it down as you were talking like trusting that they can move through it, like having trust in their growing capabilities. And recently, this particular parent was like, I don't trust I don't believe that they're capable. So how can I fake it till I make it right? Like, how can I do that when all I see is a kid who I don't believe is ever going to be able to move

Julietta Skoog 26:59
out. I mean, when I think about the not to bring in the mistaken gold chart here and do a little side, you know, rabbit hole, but the Adlerian psychology that we use this framework and positive discipline around noticing what comes up for us as an adult. In order to take a different perspective. hypothesise about maybe what the child's goal is, in this moment that's triggering what their belief system is, how can we actually really explore that so that we can try an alternative respectful tool. So it comes up for me and this is in that idea of the child's feeling a sense of inadequacy because the grownup feels so helpless, and despair and like I don't trust I don't believe they're never going to do it. I don't know what to do. One of those respectful tools is enjoy the child. That's it. It is that one small step to be like, do you want to watch the little bunny documentary? What are they called? Little Wayne? little whiny, little baby.

Casey O'Roarty 27:57
I'm saying I that's so funny. Because I was like, we're not talking like little No, no, I

Julietta Skoog 28:02
meant like, it's like a little baby. I mean, it might just be your right. You don't have trust or faith for all these big things. And so you have to start. So with a one stop.

Casey O'Roarty 28:11
Yeah, what I love about that, too, is get to know this. Now 16 year olds, right. And full acknowledgement, right, because some of us have been gifted with kiddos that are tough from the get go, right. And maybe at this point connection is really hard to find. So just want to say I see you, we see you, it's hard and you're tired and full permission to be tired. And connection really matters. But I'm going to shift us into something different. So there's embracing, you know, the imperfection. There's that positive perspective taking. And then there's this mantra that we have in positive discipline that I love that I really want to deconstruct with you guys, which is mistakes are opportunities to learn, which is like super kumbaya when you like, say it and hold it in your head. And then mistakes are opportunities to learn out in the world feels like why do you keep making them?

Julietta Skoog 29:14
Well, or keep making them or when the mistake is really messy. And they affect us too. It's not just a chance for you to learn it. It's like I feel like I'm cleaning up the mess to here. Yeah,

Alanna Beebe 29:26
absolutely. Like our kid is hitting us or kid keeps pulling everything out of the drawers or whatever. Yeah, our kid borrows our car and hit something, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 29:35
sneaks out twice in the same night.

Alanna Beebe 29:36
Yeah, you know?

Casey O'Roarty 29:43
Well, but I also I think one thing that I play with also is just the idea of a mistake, like even the languaging around a mistake versus if it's an opportunity to learn then why don't we just change even the language around that like,

Alanna Beebe 29:57
Oh, stop calling it that?

Casey O'Roarty 29:58
Yes. What would you call it? Well, it's just their behaviour.

Alanna Beebe 30:02
It's the practice. For me. It's the practice. It's like, oh, they're practising. Yeah, you know, like, every time I tried to like reframe in my mind, from, what did you just do? Or what is happening? Or why did you do that? Or what are you thinking to? Okay? What's the practice here? You know, where are we practising, you know, and trying to use that language with our kids directly to Oh, you're practising? Exactly

Julietta Skoog 30:26
you're practising. And even this idea of, like, when we look at our list of challenges, or challenging behaviours, we acknowledge that many of those behaviours are developmentally expected. Yeah, yeah. So it's that part two. So I think when we think about those opportunities to learn, it is the message, it is the behaviour or the challenge, or the mistake, that is the message, it's the signal, it's the sort of like, the reason behind our lesson objective, which is just like, great, what skill is missing? What is this a chance to build on or keep practising or teach for the first time,

Alanna Beebe 31:03
and they're not going to learn some of these things overnight? Well, you know, like, we see, when we look at the challenges list of, you know, responsibility, independence, one of the all the life skills, you know, when we're looking Yeah, we're looking at the life skills list of all the things, you know, we can't learn all of these big life skills in one moment, when we're four years old,

Casey O'Roarty 31:23
or even in one moment when we're 14, right? That's

Alanna Beebe 31:27
not gonna happen, right? Then we're still practising it ourselves. Sometimes we hit this wall with our kids where you want to teach them, you know, emotional regulation or something. And we're dysregulated. So if we're dysregulated, how are we then in a teaching mode to help, right? And how are we expecting them to be regulated? When we're distracted? We can't even hold it, right? It's that constant thing. So it's this both and of like, looking at our kids and being like, Oh, this is a practice and an opportunity. But also like in ourselves, like, this is a practice and an opportunity and holding that larger space for everyone to live in the practice?

Julietta Skoog 31:56
Yes, I just had this aha, this might be captain obvious, but I just had an aha, that we see mistakes are opportunities to learn. Not mistakes are opportunities to teach. And oh,

Casey O'Roarty 32:09
say that again. Right.

Alanna Beebe 32:11
And I find myself saying both of it, like going back and forth? Yes. And yeah, in

Julietta Skoog 32:15
positive is when we say mistakes are opportunities to learn. We don't say they're opportunities to teach. So some of these mistakes are not about for us as parents to even be our problem. Yeah, to be our teachable moment, because they're learning themselves, right? Yeah.

Alanna Beebe 32:32
Like if they're stacking blocks, and we go in and just fix it for them. Or like, that's how it's done. Right? Did they learn how to stack blocks,

Julietta Skoog 32:38
right? We're teaching, but they're not learning. So that idea also around just the challenges, or the discomfort, or the growth edges you'd like to talk about? Are those opportunities to learn. And I do think, you know, certainly I have my own issues around like the physical messes that trigger me the drain on the walls, or the domestic kitchen or those kinds of things. But when we can really hold space for our kids to mess up and join with them, to create a new neural pathway, take responsibility, do the repair, have a redo, you know, come in without learning a new way for the next time.

Julietta Skoog 33:16
That's what it's all about.

Casey O'Roarty 33:18
Yeah, well, in when I think about our sweet teenagers, and that novelty seeking wiring that gets ramped up, right, and like, it's not even that they're making mistakes, as much as they're trying stuff on. That's

Julietta Skoog 33:34
right. Well, and I will say, I mean, because I'm just dipping my toes into this. And I, you know, I don't normally talk about that age, just from my daughter's perspective, but I think she, you get to lean into our relationship with these low level decision making opportunities, socially, dating wise, friends wise, sports wise school wise to say, you decide. And you'll know on the other side, if it doesn't work out, that's going to inform you, yeah, all of this is going to inform you. So even holding that space to allow, there's a part of me that does hope she's going to go away for that weekend with that group of friends and be like, This is really uncomfortable. And I actually now I really know, you know, but take the risk to try and figure that out.

Casey O'Roarty 34:25
Because we get it in our minds that we can just tell them into knowing right but really all of us are making decisions based on this really quick inventory of how did it turn out last time? How did I feel last time? What did I learn from this experience that's slightly the same. We have all of this inventory as middle aged women

Alanna Beebe 34:49
because we learn through experience.

Julietta Skoog 34:51
We learn through experience. So I'm curious to hear just from your soccer story, because in this context or round like to hold that for a six year olds, like it's one thing for a teenager, you know, but it's another for the younger kids to to really just sit in that experience

Casey O'Roarty 35:09
that's so interesting to have you again, usually it's this other opposite direction of like, well, it's one thing for a six year old. It's another thing for a 16 year old. So I just want to acknowledge and appreciate that

Alanna Beebe 35:21
opposing perspective. Yeah, I mean, in this situation, I think for us been, it was their ability to go from feeling that frustration, and then we talked through, okay, what are we going to do the next game? What are we gonna do in the next game? What perspective are we going to have? Because my whole thing was like, the only thing we can control is our perspective, right? We can control if we win the game or lose the game, you are a team player, it's not a one on one thing, this isn't, you know, it's about everyone. You know, that's how it works. So how do you want to see this next game? What does it look like for you? You know, and they're like, Well, I want to win. You know, like, there's like, a lot of conversation, you know, it's a six year old, right? Like, there's a lot of conversation, like, they're like, I want to win, I want it like, Yeah, and you might not win. And we're gonna hold the space for that. So what are you going to do? How are we going to show up, you know, I spend like, well, I like soccer, I'm gonna go and see how it goes. And we actually left it at that we didn't leave it at, like, you have to pick something, you know, but it was just this opportunity to just kind of think about it in that way. But I think the real ha ha from soccer came later. And it was in learning how to ride a bicycle, which the first day that's been learned to ride a bicycle, there were a couple of stops that like, I basically, and this is the worst, like throwing the bike down, you know, the whole thing. And then the next time we went on a bike ride, and we're going around, and you know, they're just like going in circles going, Oh, mom, remember when I said I hated bicycling? Like, yeah, I was wrong. I love it. I love this, this is so good. You know, and so they had it, I don't have to say it, I didn't have to bring it, you know, it was just their experience, they got to go and just like have the experience. And that's what they got to learn. I had my own angles, of course, and my own thoughts about what they should have learned or whatever. And obviously tried to make those happen. But ultimately, they will still learn something, you know,

Julietta Skoog 37:13
and that's the intersection between perspective taking and mistakes are opportunities to learn.

Casey O'Roarty 37:18
Well, yeah. And also reminds me of what you were saying about enabling, right, you were not in the centre of that. So there was room for Espen to connect dots. And that's what I feel like can be a hard place for parents of teenagers, because we feel scared of the mischief making that is happening. And we can see a road that takes them to dead in a ditch. And so then it gets in the way of relationship and in the way of the teen making meaning and putting that experience in their inventory. You know, and so like, for me, this is so interesting, because we had this whole conversation last night in my group about one particular risky behaviour that many teenagers are engaging in, and the level of stress and urgency, it's a behaviour that my teen is engaging into. And I feel pretty chill about it. We talk about it, we, you know, process, we do harm reduction conversations, situational awareness conversations, I feel pretty confident in his ability to assess. And so it's not this gnarly, scary thing. And it was so fascinating to watch this entire group of people so scared, because their kids are engaging in this thing. Right?

Alanna Beebe 38:36
If we live in this fear narrative we can't solve, you know, we can't figure out where the skill is where the thing is, where the opportunity is, or the give the space for the learning, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 38:46
and embracing imperfection doesn't mean like yay, so glad you're doing this thing. But it does mean like Dean brains, here we are, and accept

Julietta Skoog 38:54
your child and their journey. And, you know, a lot of the students that we would, whenever I did the one on one evaluations, as a psychologist, I would go in we start with this model in schools, which is strengths based, that is the way you start a meeting, that is where you start an evaluation report. What are the strengths? And I would always think, what am I gonna love about this kid, you know, that students like what are their strengths? And so even if it's through that lens, not necessarily like, Great, I'm all in I'm gonna embrace all the imperfections. What about like, figuring out what are their strengths? What can you get on board with,

Casey O'Roarty 39:29
even inside of their, quote, poor decision making? Where are their even strengths inside of that? I literally got to walk through that. And

Julietta Skoog 39:39
where are those, you know, whether they're six or three in my story, or these teens where you've got to meet somewhere for them to practice that mistake. You've got to go somewhere, so maybe it's too big of a leap for you to let them make this huge mistake and go away for the weekend driving a car but like, what is this lower level that they can start to practice with? Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 40:00
Okay, so bringing us all back to what we've called this series, which is the art of connected parenting. In the context of all that we've talked about what does connected parenting mean to you? Well, I

Julietta Skoog 40:13
can wrap up my story through this lens, because to me, I think it's through this kind of perspective taking mistakes or opportunities to learn process, which was messy, we started by yelling and being really frustrated. But to take that step back, look, under the iceberg, come together as a family lean into finding solutions that we're going to be helpful to grow skills. That's what it really was. It was like, How can we help to grow the skills? And what came out of it that brainstorming session that we had? Of Okay, how are we going to address all these things that were under the iceberg, were pretty cool things and really doable. It wasn't, you know, we didn't spend any money, my oldest decided she was going to create this camp cartwheel, that grew into a whole neighbourhood thing the following summer, that she was going to actually spend that time with her sister to have that art and creative outlet, we took the time to restructure the room, put up some blue tape to define what spaces were hers and her sisters time for training to roleplay and practice the skills for how to be with stuff and leaned into that connection, you know, and empathy. So to me, that's the art of connected parenting. It's the commitment, you know, it's the commitment to connection, and to relationship and to growing skills through relationship. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:36
I love that. And

Alanna Beebe 41:38
I'm only going to add a little bit, which is just this idea for me of like connecting to yourself, and your own story, connecting to your child, and maybe what their story is connecting to the greater, you know, situation that exists. So you don't live in just your story, or just their story or whatever, you know, and like kind of bringing it outward, you know, and then having that opportunity for the messiness, because you have all that space, then, because you feel the connection, you feel the groundedness. And you have that space, that cushion.

Casey O'Roarty 42:08
Yeah, I think for me, it's coming back to presence, and really trusting the process, right, trusting the process, trusting the influence that is built through relationship. Yeah, and being really conscious of our own stuff that's coming up. And

Alanna Beebe 42:26
I do have one other thing to add, because you talked about this Julieta. It's like this idea of the deposits, you know, like you're making deposits towards their future. And it's not any one thing that is going to carve the way right, but it's like, all of these things are opportunities when they're two and three and four, and five and six building all the way up. So whether they're 16 or 18, right? You don't have to think about it as like, oh, it's all new skills, like what have we been building? Where have we gone already? You know, and then where are we going? And how can we think about it in that way, too. It's not just isolated.

Casey O'Roarty 42:59
Yeah. I have more to say, but I'm gonna hold it for future episodes. Thanks, girl. Thank you so much, man conversation with you. Thank you listeners for hanging out with us. And following this series. Join us next week, as we dig deeper into the question of what is my goal here? Yeah, thanks. Bye

Casey O'Roarty 43:29
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my spreadable partners as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay connected at B spreadable.com. Tune back in later this week for our Thursday show and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace

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