Eps 334: Lisa Lewis Teens and Sleep

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music.

Hey friends,

welcome back to joyful courage, a conscious parenting podcast where we tease apart the challenges and nuances of parenting through the tween and teen years. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer and adolescent lead at sproutable, where we celebrate not only the growth of children, but also the journey in evolution that we all get to go through as parents. This is a place where we keep it real, real stories, real parenting, and the real news is that the teen years are messy and that there aren't like perfect right answers, but the more we trust ourselves, the more we learn to trust our kids, the better the outcomes can be. The Parenting we talk about over here is relationship centered. You won't find a lot of talk about punishment or rewards. What you will hear is a lot of encouragement about connection, curiosity and life skill development. Our teens are on their own journey, and while we get to walk next to them, we don't get to walk for them. Their work is to learn from the tension of life. Our work is to support them and love them along the way. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Hi listeners. Welcome back to the show today.

My guest is Lisa Lewis. Lisa

is the author of the sleep deprived teen, why our teenagers are so tired, and how parents in schools can help them thrive, described as a call to action by Arianna Huffington and an urgent and timely read by Daniel H pink. This book is an outgrowth of her previous work on the topic, including her role helping get California's landmark law on healthy school start times past. Lisa has written for the Washington Post, the New York Times, The Atlantic and others. She is a parent to a teen and a recent teen, and lives in California. You can find more information about Lisa at WWW dot Lisa l lewis.com, I'm so excited to welcome you on the show. Hi, Lisa.

Lisa Lewis 2:21
Hi there. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, let's start

Casey O'Roarty 2:25
with how you found yourself writing a book about sleep and teens.

Lisa Lewis 2:32
Yes. So I have been immersed in this for the last seven years, and that's because seven years ago, August of 2015 was when my oldest my son, was just entering high school. That was the beginning of his freshman year, and at that point, our local high school started at 730 in the morning. So that was really early. I'm not a morning person. Particularly he wasn't either. You know, as most teens are not, and it was the earliest he'd ever had to go to school, you know, the earliest of all the start times in our district. So it really hit our household, you know, at that point. But as a parent, I was experiencing it. And then, of course, as a parenting journalist, I immediately wanted to research and find out more. So I started looking into it. And what I discovered three things, actually. The first was that nobody in my small community could even remember a time when the schools had not started so early, like this. 730 start time had been in place for decades. But one of the other things that was so interesting was that this was not just, you know, our local high school and our local community. This was going on in so many other communities around the country too. But the third piece, which was really fortuitous was that at that point that I suddenly, you know, tapped into this issue. It had already started to reach a critical mass. So again, this was back in 2015 the previous year, 2014 was when the American Academy of Pediatrics released its policy statement recommending that middle and high school start no earlier than 830 in the morning, because of the link between these very early start times and teen sleep deprivation. So obviously 730 was nowhere in range for that right. And from there, my involvement just snowballed. I started writing about the issue, and there was one article in particular that ran the fall of 2016 This is beginning of my son's sophomore year, and it was an op ed that ran in the Los Angeles Times called why school should start later in the day. That Op Ed was read by one of our California state senators, Anthony Portantino, and it just so happened, his daughter was just starting her freshman year of high school. Their high school was having conversations about whether to move to a later start. So he read my op ed. It resonated with him. He decided he wanted to look into the issue further with an. I towards introducing a bill on the topic, and that is exactly what ended up happening. And I actually got looped in, because as part of my research, I had located this terrific group called start school later, which is a national nonprofit, been around since 2011 and they're a resource for information about this. I started up my own local chapter, hoping to help bring about this change in my community. Well, his office also identified star school leaders, a resource. They looped in all of us who were local chapter leaders in the state of California. So I actually knew about this even before the bill was officially introduced and it was introduced in February of 2017 and I just got immersed in it. I mean, it was, this is all volunteer, but it was hundreds of hours. I ended up testifying at the state capitol that summer, at one of the hearings. It was this two and a half year legislative journey, from that point when it was introduced to the point when it finally got signed into law, which was October of 2019 had a three year implementation window, and that law just went into effect July 1. So this is very exciting, because it is the first law of its scope in the entire country. We are the only state that has set minimum allowed start times. So I'm

Casey O'Roarty 6:22
just a regular person in California, and I'm like, oh, there's a law. Like, what is being told to the schools because of this? Yes,

Lisa Lewis 6:29
yeah, that's an excellent point well, and I should say so that one last piece I didn't mention is as an outgrowth of that whole experience, is that's what led me to write my book, The sleep to five teen, and it quite literally, is the book that I wished I had had seven years ago when I was just starting out, because I did not know all this stuff. And to your point, I feel like there's still such an opportunity to raise awareness about, easily, about why this is being done, right? So it's been pretty widely covered in the media. I mean, it was covered nationally, because it's the first state to have done this. So it has been covered here in California too. Schools had a three year window to make these changes, but part of that is because you want to give people enough time. You want to help them understand why this is being done. And so in the local communities, this has been handled, you know, various ways in terms of how it's been communicated, but there are several key things that are so important for parents in California and parents everywhere to understand. The first is that teens should be getting eight to 10 hours of sleep every night. Those are the official recommendations from the National Sleep Foundation, and that's a lot. That's not just eight hours. You know, people always hear eight hours. Well, that's great for us. We're adults. That's the midpoint for us. It's seven to nine hours. For teens, that's the minimum of the recommended range. And the CDC does a survey of high schoolers, and the most recent data from their survey found that only about one in five high schoolers were even hitting that minimum of eight hours a night. So it gives you a sense of just how widespread this is. And then there's another key piece, which I feel like comes up so often because people hear, Oh, well, they're so sleep deprived. Why don't they just go to bed earlier? It's their fault, right? So here's the thing, when our kids hit adolescence, they begin to shift to a later sleep schedule. It's called a circadian rhythm shift, because it shifts when they start feeling sleepy, because melatonin is the hormone that primes us to start feeling sleepy, that begins to be released later in the evening, doesn't subside until later in the morning, so they're not feeling sleepy until about 11 o'clock at night. And of course, you know, as a parent, you sort of see this when your kids are little, they bounce out of bed in the morning. You know they're able to fall asleep at eight o'clock, or what have you, teens are not able to fall asleep betterly, and that's because of this circadian rhythm shift. Yeah, yeah. Well, so then you think about it, if they can't even fall asleep until about 11, they're not been sleepy till nine. And many of them, of course, are up much later than that. Well, schools are starting too early. It makes it really difficult for them to get those eight to 10 hours. I

Casey O'Roarty 9:26
Yeah, and it's interesting too, because this isn't the first show that I've done on sleep. So listeners, you'll remember last year episode 291, with Julie glowski, and even way back at the start, years and years ago, I did a podcast with Alana McGinn talking about young kids in sleep, and I'm listening, and, you know, the circadian rhythm piece comes up, and I like, can feel this collective like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's circadian rhythm, and they need to go to bed early. Like, do you, you know what I'm talking about? Well, yeah,

I'm with you.

I'm with you, Lisa. But I can feel, you know, from clients and people that I've talked to that, that idea the adults have, that it's like, yeah and or Yeah, but you got to go to bed, because this is the clock of the world, like you got to get up, you got to go to bed. And that there's somehow defiance or an unwillingness that exists inside teenagers, which, you know, when it becomes a power struggle, I would say, Yes, that's true, but like talk about a little bit like that circadian rhythm. Can it be overrun, or is it like, truly something that is in our biology that adults could do a better job of respecting

Lisa Lewis 10:48
Yeah, no, you touched on so many of these major themes. So I should just remind your listeners I am a parenting journalist. I am not a sleep scientist. I did talk to gosh, I must have done probably 50 interviews, you know, all told, you know, reading all the research studies from the neuroscientists and the sleep scientists this, yes, circadian rhythms are real. There's even been research done, and there have been articles about it recently, about the fact that even our cells have this clock, this internal clock. So this is real in terms of why we are awake during the day, why we're asleep at night. You know, that's a very complex process. But the fact is, there is absolutely a shift during the teen years to this later schedule. So, you know, hypothetically, if you were to put a teen to bed at nine o'clock, which, of course, you can't really put a team you put a three year old to bed, you know, they're probably just gonna lay there and stare at the ceiling, unless they're just so utterly exhausted because they're so sleep deprived, but generally speaking, that is not going to align at all with their normal, you know, bodily rhythms, and so that's why they're really not feeling sleepy until about 11 o'clock at night. But the key piece, too, is why it's so important for them to be able to sleep a little bit later in the morning, because when you wake them too early, you are cutting into their sleep, and that is why changing school start times is actually the biggest policy change that can be made, that has been shown time and time again to have a real impact, a positive impact on teen sleep. So that is the first one across the world, because if your kid has to be sitting first period mandatory, you know, at their desks at 730 or even seven, there are schools in this country with a mandatory, you know, first period starts at 7am these are not those optional zero periods. They're fighting to do it. They're fighting their bodies and they're doing it, but they're sleep deprived, and there are so many ramifications of that. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:46
and I want to talk a little bit about that. And just for the listeners sake, we're going to talk about the importance of sleep and some suggestions on how to, you know, be on the team, this the teen sleep team, and how to support them in getting the sleep they need. At the end, I want to talk more about because the cool thing about your book is it's not just about the sleep deprived teen. It's also about your journey and the legislative experience that you had. And it's like a handbook for parents who are like, yes, in my community, I want to make this happen. And so I want to talk about that as well. I will say, here in Bellingham, we've got it together. And our elementary kids go to school first. Our high schoolers are at school at 830 and the middle schoolers, I think their start time is nine. So yeah, they figured it out with transportation. It's all working out up here. So let's talk a little bit about, so you talked about the circadian rhythm, and that sleep matters, and we know this. I think we know this for our health and well being, sleep is so important. What are the behaviors and outcomes you know that teens exhibit that can be traced back to sleep deprivation?

Lisa Lewis 13:59
Oh, my goodness. Well, there is nothing good that comes from being sleep deprived. I mean, I think just as a general statement, and people you know, you sort of realize this, even as an adult, when you're sleep deprived, everything is that much harder. When it comes to our teens, though, it is more of an issue again, because of these things like school start times that are cutting into their sleep. The chronic sleep deprivation has implications across the board. So you just look at it from a school perspective to start, it impacts their grades. They have found when schools move to later start times and teens indeed do get more sleep. They have found grades go up, tardies go down, absences go down, graduation rates go up quite significantly. So this is huge, even when you step back and you think, well, the whole point of them being in school is to learn. Well, when you're sleep deprived, it impedes that entire process of learning and of the initial phase of acquiring that information. Then. Then being able to store that information, because all that happens when you sleep, that's when information gathered throughout the day is transferred into long term memory, and it's kind of you forge new insights, you kind of integrate it with other information you already knew. So that process is impeded. And then also when you're trying to retrieve that information, you know, you're taking a test, or you're trying to remember those concepts you learned in school so you can do your homework, that part is also affected, so it really dampens their ability to learn, and that is the core function of them being in school. Gosh, when you look at their risky behaviors, you know just sort of across the board, teens are already more predisposed to risky behaviors, to impulsivity, risk taking, sensation seeking, because of the fact that they're teens in the stage of brain development they're in being sleep deprived heightens all of those which then has implications for substance use, other risky behaviors, drowsy driving, crashes, unsafe behaviors in the car, like whether or not they wear their seatbelts, texting while driving, I mean, just across the board. And then mental health, another huge one, because again, when you are sleep deprived, it exacerbates symptoms and mental health issues for depression, anxiety, even suicidality.

Casey O'Roarty 16:24
Just thinking about the last few years and all the other layers of existence that exist for teens and really having had the rug of normalcy and what they can depend on, be pulled out from under them. Feel like I read something that you wrote about just the rhythm of the pandemic and the kids being home and actually getting more sleep. Is that you or did I read? I

Lisa Lewis 16:52
probably referenced that because that sort of was a bit of a silver lining during the pandemic. Well, schools had to pivot overnight to remote learning back in March of 2020, which is craziness, and when that happened? Oh, I know when that happened, though many of them did shift their schedules. So for instance, in California, we were in the midst of this three year window, and so I know anecdotally, many districts did take that opportunity to move to an 830 start time. Kept that in place when they went back. But in other districts, too, they did that because they didn't have all of the same constraints on the school and students themselves, no commute anymore. You know, many of them were, you know, in their PJs, not turning on their cameras. You know, all that time, you know, getting ready in the morning. So they definitely, you know, were able to shave so much time off of their mornings. So that was a silver lining where kids, in many cases, were able to get more sleep. I mean, that feels like the only bright spot, because meanwhile, all the mental health issues had increased. So this at least, kind of helped sort of ameliorate some of that well, and unfortunately, those temporary gains in sleep, you know, those went away, then when kids went back. Because in many cases, they went back, you know, into all their activities. But the mental health piece has endured, because we're not out of the pandemic as much as everyone wants to say that we are. You know, there's so much that's been going on these last few years, and mental health issues for teens truly are at crisis levels. Every major medical group has been sounding the alarm over the last year, and I did, in fact, just write an op ed about this, about sleep being a piece of the puzzle to look at, because obviously mental health issues are so complex, but we do know that being sleep deprived just heightens all of that, and it just heightens emotions, and it's a straightforward piece that we can address, yeah, particularly important when so much else is out of our control. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 18:55
and I love like the information in your book, and even just the information that you've shared here with me on the show, and you also offer some really sound suggestions for how to support our teens in the rhythm of their day and evening leading up to sleep. And I'm thinking about families who are, you know, kind of in an ongoing power struggle with their teens. And you know, it's one thing to be like, here's all this information. Teenager of mine, you know, and I'm thinking about, here's how social media will screw you over. Here's how you know. Here's what sleep deprivation does. Here's why you don't want to try drugs. Like we can give them all the information. What suggestions do you have for parents around not only giving the information but also really being in the work of creating a buy in, you know, and supporting our kids, and moving from this resistance place to a place of, yeah? I want to feel better, so maybe I will look into some of these things, because that's a tough I mean, I'm a parent coach. That's where we're like, ah, pulling our hair out, because we want them to step we want their willingness, and sometimes our delivery does not really nurture that willingness, right? What are your thoughts about that?

Lisa Lewis 20:21
Yeah, no, it is tough, absolutely, well. And one other piece is, I would encourage parents to pay attention to their own sleep, because we're talking about the specific and heightened effects, you know, on our teens, but so many adults are sleep deprived. Oh, yeah, and we've got it in our house, yeah. So the main message, I would say, is just to make sleep a priority in our households, and that goes for parents too. Just because when parents are well rested and teens are well rested, it obviously sets the stage for more positive interactions. So that's something that I think is so important, but it also helps set the stage just for these kind of conversations. Because it's not just a parent telling a teen you need to work on your sleep. It's saying, you know, I, too, am making sleep a priority for myself and being able to have those conversations. Because a lot of these tips, and you know, the advice in the book for teens is relevant for parents too, things like setting a wind down routine, for example. So this was something I talked with, the sleep scientist who actually coaches professional athletes, and this is one of the things she absolutely, you know, has them do, and she encourages teens to do it too, because you want some sort of transition time into sleep, and when you have the same sequence of activities that you do every single night to kind of ease that transition, it helps it become more ingrained. And it's something we did, you know, when our kids were little, you have some sort of elaborate routine to help them get to sleep. So this is something where you can sort of talk to your teens about what helps them relax, to get into that frame of mind, to be, you know, going to sleep. Ideally, it's not being on your tech devices. The official recommendations from the American Academy of Pediatrics, no tech use an hour before bedtime. So just to be aware of that, and you know it can be you can read a book, you can take a bath, you can't even listen to a podcast, which I realize is a device, but you're not looking at it. You're not engaged with it in the same way. So coming up with the wine down routine and talking about that with your teens. But I guess the other last piece would be to get their buy in. One suggestion would be encourage them to try different things. I mean, because they know they're tired. It's not like you have to point out to them that they're sleep deprived. Like many cases, they're aware that they're exhausted. But when you start talking about, well, have you thought about this? Because maybe they don't want to, you know, relinquish their phones from their rooms. And if you haven't already set that rule ahead of time, it is hard to suddenly come in and do it. But you could encourage them, well, what if you try putting it on the other side of the room, you know, and see, how does that work, you know, and sort of letting them kind of experience it for themselves, that would be another approach.

Casey O'Roarty 23:09
Yeah, I'm hearing you in the positive discipline world, Lisa, we call that asking versus telling, right? And being curious, showing up with curiosity, and kind of collaborative, co creative conversations around finding solutions for sleep deprivation. And I will say because I know that there are people listening who, you know, there's always somebody who's got some pushback, right and like, but yeah, well, my kid won't engage in this conversation. Or my kid, and I would just say to you, listener, you know, really work on relationship with that kid, and work on that one on one time, and work on kind of the foundational places so that the kids do feel safe exploring sleep. And when I say feel safe, the alternative of that is, here's my parent walking in my room trying to get me to do something that I don't want to do. I'm digging in my feed. I won't let them win when that's the dynamic, whether we're talking about screens or sleep or school or whatever, it's a lose, lose situation. And so I'm appreciating the suggestions you're giving Lisa, because it's really like I'm energetically opening a door not to I have all the answers, and I'm going to ask questions until you get to my answers, but really like, what's going to work for your child? And when I talk to them like that with curiosity, it's super respectful, because ultimately, we're saying, Hey, you're the expert on you, and you have the power to change the experience that you're having whenever you're ready to do that, right? And I've got resources, and I'm a listener, and I'm here for you work on that, non judgment people. And so I really appreciate those suggestions.

Lisa Lewis 24:54
Thank you. Yeah, well, I'm so glad to hear that you know there's a term for them, because I do come at this obviously, from a different family. Vantage point than you two, but the collaborative aspect is so key. And asking them to, you know, because, again, they know they're sleep deprived, but also, you know, asking, Well, what is it, you know, what's making it hard for you to get to bed? I noticed you're not really late. And so another one we didn't touch on yet is, in so many cases, they are over scheduled. They're on overload. You know, that's a big piece, because we as parents can absolutely have an impact on that. But in many cases, they've sort of, you know, piled so much on their plates because they feel they need to in order to be successful, in order to get into a good college. So that's sort of a bigger topic, but it is a really important one, because if you just look at your teen schedule, the number of hours they're in school plus the approximate number of hours of homework they have, and particularly if they're taking, you know, honors or AP level classes, obviously that homework load goes up, and then they're involved in sports or other extracurriculars, and maybe they have a job. Well, if you just add up all of those time commitments, you know, take a look and see is there even an eight to 10 hour window left in that schedule to allow them the opportunity to be able to get enough sleep? Because if there's not, you know, it really may be time to cut something back, because they're doing this all, but it's coming at a cost, and the cost is, unfortunately, in many cases, their mental health.

Casey O'Roarty 26:33
Well, there are those kids and then and you brought up, we talked a little bit about screens. I've had many podcast interviews about screens and screens getting in the way. I just had a client call yesterday talking with a couple whose kids become so enraged even in the hey, let's have a conversation about screens invitation that it can't really get anywhere. So, you know, we hate screen like, I mean, they're great. Like, the fact that you and I get to have this conversation on Zoom and I can record it, like, technology is amazing, and right, right, and yet, right, and yet. So what do you have to add to like, the screen struggle conversation? Yeah,

Lisa Lewis 27:15
no, it's so big, and obviously it's here to stay, and it's so different, you know? I mean, literally, I know I'm dating myself, but when I was in school, I would hand write a book report and turn it in. You know, obviously that doesn't cut it anymore. And I mean, I think that's another piece to acknowledge. Is this is not just teens, you know, elective screen use, right? They have to be on computers to do their assignments. They have to turn them in online. One piece, then this is where schools can also play a role. It makes perfect sense. But I was talking about this with somebody who said, Well, you know, when teachers set a due date, often the system will, just by default, set 11:59pm as the turn in time. Well, of course, that tacitly encourages you to sort of do the it later. That's just human nature, right? But that's a piece where once you realize that you think, oh, and that could be changed. You know, that is one of those little changes that could be made. But I guess so it's important to keep in mind that our teams do have to be on technology, you know, just to do their scoring. And that is the reality. The other piece, though, is that all these new technologies are such a key part of their social lives. You know? Again, I go back to when I was growing up, I was on the telephone for hours, right? Well, teens don't do that anymore, you know, they're it's funny, actually, because in some cases, they're just hesitant to pick up the phone, talk on the phone, but all these other ways, Snapchat or whatever they're doing. I mean, they're not, I always say that to my daughter, oh, texting. But I know she doesn't text. I guess it's, you know, instant messaging and all that. But those are the ways that they are staying in contact with their friends. It is an essential piece, yeah, of their social lives. So just recognizing that, that we can't just say, oh, tech is bad, you know, it really is important, but it's how to not let it just kind of spill over in a way that is affecting everything else. It was really interesting, because when I looked into how is it that tech affects sleep? And there was so much to say, I ended up with the whole chapter on this. But there are three main ways that tech use affects sleep. The first is just that it takes time away from sleep, which obviously makes sense. You know, if you are up late, you're playing video games till 130 morning, you are quite literally cutting into your sleep time, right? The second is that it is stimulating and engaging, and that's really, really, I think, you know, one of the most key pieces. In fact, those first two that sleep displacement and the fact that it's stimulating engaging, are the two that the sleep experts say matter the most, even more than the third one, which is the blue light aspect of these devices. Because, yes, that can be a factor, but it is not seen as. Being quite as impactful when it comes to how it's affecting sleep. It was funny because one of them, we were talking about blue blocker, glasses and stuff, and he thinks of that stuff, he's like, yeah, it's sort of like putting a filter on a cigarette. You know, the stimulating and engaging part, you know, really makes sense when you think about how all of these apps and everything have been designed to be as immersive as possible. And our teens are the prime audience for this, because of the stage of brain development that they're in. They are already primed for sensation seeking and reward seeking. That's what likes are, you know, social media, it's a form of rewards. That's what leveling up at a video game is. It's a form of rewards, and all of these have been deliberately designed to keep us all engaged as long as possible. And our teams are the perfect audience for it. So just to sort of recognize what we're up against, it's not just them willfully, stubbornly staying on. They're responding to these ways. I mean, even if you think about television, when you you know, stream a show and you watch an episode and it just automatically goes into the next episode, there's that little countdown window that's by design to keep us

Casey O'Roarty 31:17
there every time. I just watched severance. You saw that one? Oh my gosh. The cliffhangers at the end are just, they're just mean, it's just like they're not watching

Lisa Lewis 31:31
Exactly. And if you don't get up or hit the button, it just seamlessly, yeah,

that's such a perfect example.

Casey O'Roarty 31:40
Yeah, you know. And we could go on and on, on the tech stuff. And I want to bring it back to, you know, the conversation that you prompted when I asked, you know? And I want listeners to think, you know, the curiosity, that place of collaboration, that place of CO creating limits. And, you know, we have to, like, there's no oh, well, they need to learn how to navigate it so it's just an open playing field that's irresponsible. I'm gonna just take a stand that's irresponsible parenting. We have to create guardrails, and they might not like it in the moment, and that's okay. You get to be with that, because, like Lisa is saying, the design of these devices is such that it's not a character flaw that they don't have the skills to navigate their screens and their sleep needs or their dietary needs or their school needs. It's designed to override everything and keep them engaged. So put up the guardrails. Come into it with curiosity. Ask a lot of questions. Help them connect the dots, whether we're talking about connecting the dots around, yeah, I've been feeling really low and unmotivated. Oh, gosh, yeah. And I've only been getting six hours of sleep. I wonder if that's connected. And then helping them connect dots around, like, well, what is it that gets in the way? Is it your screen? What could you do? Like having those inquiry based, solution minded conversations with your kids is really where you want to be heading. And again, if that feels super out of reach, work on relationship. Work on relationship, because that's where your influence grows, is when you're in a connected relationship with your kids,

so yes,

Lisa Lewis 33:26
and being well rested yourself, yes makes it that much easier. I get back to that because, I mean, we know that our patience is razor thin when we have enough, so maybe I'm just talking about myself here, but I know I am not the most pleasant person in the world if I have not gotten enough sleep, and nobody is, because, you know, when we're well rested, it boosts our emotional resiliency. Yes, so you just, you definitely want to make sure that you yourself are paying attention to your sleep and recognizing to your point. It's collaborative, asking those questions and recognizing. It's a process, especially with teens. If you haven't set these rules, you know, from the get go, which, frankly, a lot of us did not, because a lot of these technologies, we didn't get a chance to experience them before they were there, and so we were learning them at the same time as our teams. And it is difficult. I have teams. I mean, I recognize that. And I will also say it's not as if I've just come in and shared what I know with my teens and they've said, Wow, mom, you're right. It's a process, you know, and it really does take, you know, sort of walking the talk and continuing to do that and to share what we're doing, yeah, you know, to help ourselves and recognizing at some point they do have to take ownership of it, because eventually they move out and they are going to have to not stay up till 3am playing video games, unless they have come up with some job where that is exactly going to work with their schedule. And that's terrific, because after high school, they do have more say a. Their schedules, you know, yeah, which gets me back to the whole thing with high schools where, you know, they're required to be there so early. And people say, Oh, it's good preparation for the real world. Well, no, the real world has so many different jobs out there, so many different start times. I mean, how many colleges do you know of where students have to be there at a seven or 7:30am class five days a week work in retail or warehouses or overnight shifts. I mean, not everybody's like, you know, getting up and going to their office. You know, office jobs are not the majority anymore. No,

Casey O'Roarty 35:31
not at all. And the whole conversation around like, oh, we need to mirror the quote, real world in our home. Like, how about we create a space in our home that grows, you know, healthy contributing members of society, so that you know the harshness of the real world is not something that you know now need therapy around, because that's what we've emulated in our homes. How about that anyway?

Lisa Lewis 35:56
No, no, and that's true. And the one other piece too is that when people so it's good preparations for the real world. Well, when you're an adult, you need seven to nine hours of sleep, right? Not still in the midst of the different, massive transformation that happens during adolescence, both physically and, you know, under the hood to all the brain development we were talking about. So they're still growing. They still need eight to 10 hours of sleep. They are not adults yet. So it doesn't even make sense, you know that you're preparing them because they're going to have different sleep needs by the time they're adults. So you don't, yeah, it's not supposed to be boot camp, right? Right?

Casey O'Roarty 36:30
Exactly, exactly. And so that's one of the places I know in your book that you talk about a little bit around, kind of some of the pushback. Well, let's move into the work that you did in advocating for the California law. There was a couple arguments in chapter 14 that you talked about that come up as like, well, this is why it can't work or won't work, schools after school, jobs. You know, something I've heard in the communities that I've been a part of, when this conversation has shown up before, where we live now, was, well, I need my older kids home to help with the younger kids. And so, like, what did you have to navigate as a voice in this movement

around this creating this law well,

Lisa Lewis 37:12
and all of those things you mentioned, those always come up, you know, because up until now, this has been done on a community by community basis, and it has been done in hundreds of districts around the country. The issue is there is no central database, so I don't have, like a number I can give you, but the same kind of issues always come up, and yes, we face them here in California as well. Every family has its own unique circumstances. Every district has its own setup, whether they already have a tiered bus system for elementary, middle and high, what time those have been starting. And so you sort of have to address it on an individual level of what's needed, in terms of if there is a need to offer more care in the mornings versus in the afternoons, I mean. But also sort of stepping back and realizing, you know already in the fact is school schedules are not family friendly. The existing schedules, they are not work friendly. There is no parent whose work schedule exactly mirrors the school schedule, even if their teacher at that exact school where their kid attends. And let's say it's 832 30, well, the kids down at 230 the adult is not right. That's when the teacher then has conferences and administrative meetings, etc, you know? So it's already not family friendly. We are the week off at Thanksgiving and at Christmas and spring break and all these days off for teacher prep, days like parents already have had to carefully construct their lives around these schedules. And so I think what happens is the biggest resistance is often just simply a resistance to change, because it requires adjusting all these this finely tuned, you know, wraparound system we've had to put in place. And in so many communities, for example, the Elementary in the middle and high school start at different times, which means as your kid moves up through the system, you're constantly having to readjust and shuffle what you do so it's real, you know, because it's already not convenient. So I guess what I would say is figuring out whatever those specific situations are and how to address them best in that community. I mean, I could go into so much more, but it's just sort of recognizing all why there is resistance, because it's already so darn inconvenient, and we've already carefully constructed a schedule. You talked about changing it right? It really just sounds stressful, but recognizing why we're doing it. Teen sleep deprivation is a public health issue. All the major medical groups have come out with recommendations mirroring the AAP that, yes, our middle and high schools need to start at these start times, which ideally are 830, or later. There's a real compelling public health imperative for this. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 39:56
and you mentioned a group you know, as we wrap up, and I'm thinking of. People who are listening and really wanting to take first steps. You mentioned a group that you were a part of, what are first steps, and I know, like, again, I'm plugging your book. Listeners check out Lisa's book because she dedicates, you know, a lot of time. And I mean chapters, many, many chapters, a quarter of the book, if not more, around creating change in your community. So what is a first step for listeners? Yeah,

Lisa Lewis 40:31
so Well, of course, I would encourage you to read my book called The Sleep deprive teen. And to your point, yeah, the entire last third of the book is about what parents can do to help. And so some of those are some of the strategies we talk to things we can do in our own homes. Looking, I've got a chapter on daytime strategies, a chapter on nighttime strategies, because it's also looking at things like, you know, I think we touched upon over scheduling, you know, other things that you can affect during the day. But there's also a great deal of information in there about getting involved in changing school start times, which is how I got involved, and which I do believe is, you know, the place to start. If your kid starts at 7am there's only so much else you can do to help them. So connecting with other like minded parents, you know, starting to talk with other parents about this, getting a group together, starting a local chapter of start school later, which is the national organization I mentioned. It's a tremendous resource, because this has been done in so many communities around the country, and so you can get, you know, tips and advice mothers who have done it, starting to educate people in the community about why this is so important, why it is that, you know, no, teens can't just go to bed earlier. They're not being lazy. You know why school start? Times matter, doing a presentation with the PTA, even, in fact, in California, start school later, and the California State PTA were both official co sponsors of this bill, and the PTA supported it because it very much dovetails with their mission. It very much supports kids health and well being so really, that's what I would say, is just start talking to other parents. If you're trying to make a change locally, consider starting a start school, later chapter and start trying to help build awareness. And as part of that, if you can find a local medical expert to be part of it, that is incredibly helpful.

Casey O'Roarty 42:30
Okay, I will make sure that listeners that there are links in the show notes to those organizations, to Lisa's book and her website as well. As we wrap up. Is there anything else you want to make sure you leave listeners with today? Lisa,

Lisa Lewis 42:44
you know, I think I would just reiterate what I said earlier, which is, just make sleep a priority, and really for us as parents too. I know it's something that I am continuing to make a priority in my life. There's been so much else that I've let slide at various points, including when I was on deadline writing this book. But I can't let sleep slide because I know I don't function well. Otherwise I don't interact with my family members as productively. Otherwise, sleep is so important, and just trying to get away from that mindset of you know that getting by on as little sleep as you can is a badge of honor. It's not. It's just making everything that much harder. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 43:23
yeah. Well, my final question, which I ask all my guests, is, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Lisa Lewis 43:31
That is a good question for me. I probably relate that to having the courage to be involved and to be dedicated to something that you know, you feel is important, staying the course. You know, I kind of say that I'm, you know, when people say, Well, how did you do it? I would say, like, I am quietly persistent. So it's just a matter of, really, you know, figuring out what's important. In this case, you know, this was my cause. I'm also involved in other causes and things I believe into that taking action really can make a difference, and that is an amazing feeling to do that.

Casey O'Roarty 44:12
Thank you. And where can people so will you say your website again and any social media that people can be following you on?

Lisa Lewis 44:19
Yeah, so I use my middle initial just because it's a bit of a common name. So it's Lisa l Lewis. The book is called the sleep deprived teen, and my website is www dot. Lisa l lewis.com, and on Twitter and Instagram, it's at Lewis. Lisa L Okay,

Casey O'Roarty 44:41
we'll have links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was super helpful,

Lisa Lewis 44:47
absolutely so happy to be here. Thanks again.

Casey O'Roarty 44:56
Yay. Thank you for listening the. You for listening. Please check the show notes for any links that were mentioned in my conversation. Thank you so much to my team at sproutable for all of your support. Alana and Julietta. I'm so glad to be creating this experience with you. Thank you to Chris Mann and his team at pod shaper for keeping the show sounding so good. If you liked what you heard today, please share it. Screenshot the show. Plaster it all over your social media. That's how you let other people know that there's value happening over here. If you really want to earn the gold star, and why wouldn't you head to Apple podcasts and leave us a five star review. This does wonders for the show and is a great way to give back. I'm so glad to have spent time with you today. I'll see you soon. You.