Eps 306: Rowan’s Year In Review, Tattoos, and Tinder

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Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Music. Hey, friends, welcome to the final episode of the joyful courage podcast for 2021 I am glad to be saying goodbye to this year and looking forward to what's to come. This show is a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I'm your host. Casey overrti, positive discipline lead trainer, parent, coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit, growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is kind of a year in review, a little bit with a very special guest. Thank you so much for listening. I'm deeply honored to lead you, so grateful that what I put out matters to you, and really glad to keep it coming. Thanks for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show.

So today, my friends, I have my favorite guest of all time, and I'm not afraid or ashamed to say that community favorite, favorite daughter, Rowan or Rorty, is my guest today.

Rowan 1:26
Crowd cheer. Crowd

Casey O'Roarty 1:27
cheers. Rowan is my oldest in case you just got here, she is my oldest child and someone who teaches me every day about authenticity and honesty. She recently became a licensed esthetician in the state of Washington and is starting classes at the local community college in a couple weeks. She's an aspiring writer with a deep love of skincare, and I'm so honored that I get to share her with you all today. Hi, Rowan, welcome back to the podcast. Hi, hi. Thank you for chatting with me today. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about the last year, about what it's been like from the teen age perspective, from my perspective, and you know, just the conversation around the ebbs and flows of uncertainty. Are you up for that? Yep,

Rowan 2:19
I'm up for it. Yeah. Good.

Casey O'Roarty 2:22
Well, the first thing I want to do is I want to kind of go back in time and remember. So those of you that don't know Rowan is not only my daughter, she's also, what do we call you the podcast

Rowan 2:35
manager, podcast manager, podcast

Casey O'Roarty 2:37
manager. So Rowan listens to every podcast, and makes the bullet point lists and puts it up in the places that it needs to go online. She works for me, and so she has listened to all the guests and all the solo shows. And so I have on my computer right now, I'm on the page that shows all the shows of the podcast, and I just wanted to do a little recap of some of the places that we went this last year and see Rowan, if you remember any of these shows that might have stuck out for you. I know there was a few, more than a few that were really impactful to me. We started off the year I interviewed Iris Chen around her book untiring our parenting. Do you remember that one?

Rowan 3:27
Rowan, yeah, I liked that one. I

Casey O'Roarty 3:29
liked that one too. And Iris has since blown up like she's a huge voice in the decolonizing your parenting world, and she's an unschooler, homeschooler. That was a really powerful interview with Iris, and I was really stoked to get to have that conversation with her. Let's see. What were some other goodies? Oh, I know back in March, I had two interviews that I loved back in March. One was with Michelle Icard, 14 conversations by age 14, I think was the name of her book. Remember her and she I was like, that's what I discovered. The PIC, pick and poke in ink. What's it called? Stick and poke. Stick and poke. Will you please remind the listeners of what Stick and poke means? Rowan,

Rowan 4:20
it's just a method of tattooing that underage people often do of ink and a needle just poking yourself to make a tattoo.

Casey O'Roarty 4:32
So you just poke yourself and then you put, like, ballpoint pen ink or Sharpie ink. I

Rowan 4:37
don't know if they're doing ballpoint pen ink, that's like, poisonous. I'm pretty sure, oh, I don't know, and they use real ink, but yeah, anyway, great. Oh, I'm scared that I was gonna do a stick. You're like, don't do stick and don't do sticking. But

Casey O'Roarty 4:49
we're gonna talk about tattoos in a little bit. But reading Michelle's book was the first time I heard that phrase as a thing, and Rowan got a big kick out of that, because I was like, Oh, my. God, this is a thing you're like, Yeah, mom, yeah, thing. That's a really good book. I really enjoyed Michelle icards, but that's episode 264, I did a whole series around all the beliefs behind behavior in March and April. Let's see what were some Ooh thrivers. With Michelle Borba, we talked about her book. That was a good one, understanding gender expression. With Ray McDaniels,

Rowan 5:29
oh yeah. I really like that

Casey O'Roarty 5:31
one. I really liked that one too. We talked about, you know, there's a lot of parents out there whose teenagers are just navigating their own gender identity and their sexuality. And for the parents, it can feel like we don't always know what to say or how to respond. And what I really appreciated with that conversation with Ray was just some solid advice around how to truly be unconditional with our kids, even when we don't totally understand what it is that they're going through, how to be accepting and loving and curious and compassionate, because you guys don't want to be judged. Do you? Rowan,

Rowan 6:15
no, no.

Casey O'Roarty 6:17
We want to be understood. We want to be understood, and it's hard for us to understand. We try, right? Yeah,

Rowan 6:23
that's why I like all the interviews you do with different guests that have different like, backgrounds or a different topic of thing, because everybody's kid has something going on that their parents don't understand because they haven't gone through it. They don't like relate to it at all. So like, I feel like diving into that and actually learning about what's going on with your kid will really that really helps. Like, when you went through DBT with me and actually understood what went on in my brain and what actually is happening?

Casey O'Roarty 7:01
Yeah, and I still get it wrong. Sometimes you do that was it was really quick to agree with me. Thank you so much. Also, I interviewed my friend Sarah McLaughlin about her book letting the heart lead. That was a sweet, sweet interview. And then this last fall, we've had some live coaching episodes, lots of solo shows, some shows on romantic partnership validation. Dan Siegel, my God, could you tell I was fangirling when you listened to that Rowan? Or did I you were really cool? Oh, was I as cool as cool, calm and collect? I just want to be his friend, but I don't think I can, because he is a celebrity to me. Yeah. And then, do you know, wrapping up the year, the last couple of weeks, one with Diana Hill around Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which I loved that conversation with her. I'm excited to learn more about that and unpacking school violence. What did you think listening to that?

Rowan 8:08
Yeah, that one, really. I cried a few times when I was doing that. It was, it was a really good interview. And my favorite part was when she was talking about, like, the what rent, what went right, kind of and then all the kids were like, telling her how supported by their teachers, they felt it really. It made me feel it melted me, yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 8:36
It melted me too. I was pretty much losing it. Yeah, fun year on the podcast. Fun year. And, you know, we started out last year and throughout the year this, it's a brave new world that was kind of the theme and the mantra that kept coming up for me. And I even hosted a summit at the start of the year with that title for parents. Parenting for a brave new world, school was remote. We were all worried about adolescent mental health. Shouts for social justice continued to be heard. Families were struggling. Covid continues, and it just kind of felt like an ongoing WHAT THE FUCK frame of mind? What do you remember about last the beginning of last year? Rowan,

Rowan 9:24
the beginning of 2020, 2021,

yeah, oh, um,

I a lot of changes came for me in the beginning of this year. I like, you know, I turned 18. I was like, I'm gonna get a tattoo. And I really felt like it was like this year was a new world for me. I prepared, like, the first few months I was getting myself psychologically prepared to start school, and, yeah, it's been. I mean, I feel like this year has been, like my, my beginning year, you know, to my, not adulthood, but like growing up, kind of which is has been very hard for me to

Casey O'Roarty 10:17
accept, yeah, I think it's been hard for a lot of kids. Yeah, you started school in March,

Rowan 10:25
yes, in April, but yeah, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 10:27
in April. And I remember when you were on the podcast. So everyone Rowan was on my podcast a year ago, talking about our DBT experience and just her journey to health and wholeness, and we were talking about you starting school, and I remember feeling nervous that it had been so long since you were an in person. In an in person learning environment, you'd gotten pretty good at avoiding people. Will you talk about how it felt that first day of going to in person school to esthetician school. Do you remember?

Rowan 11:04
Yeah, well, I was, I had I signed up for school, like, six months before my start date. And I was like, oh, it's, it's so far off, it's never gonna get here, so I don't have to worry about it. And as it slowly got closer, I found myself kind of being like, Oh God, but also like, it's, I wasn't going back to high school, you know, I wasn't going back to an environment that I needed to get out of. I was, it was like a new thing. I'd never been to beauty school before, and we had an online orientation the day before we actually went in and like it was, it just made me feel like I was definitely not ready, because I didn't know what to expect. But I definitely made me feel more secure, kind of like, Okay, everybody, like, nobody's been to beauty school before. It's not like you go to beauty school for a few years and the people are returning. So we're all kind of new to this. But I was definitely really I was pretty nervous on my first day. I was like, okay, but we were all nervous. And we were like, we had to introduce ourselves that day and stuff. And I was like, second person to go, and I was totally shaking, as I always do when I'm like, in that situation, but like, everybody was in the same boat, yeah, kind of so it was really nice. And

Casey O'Roarty 12:36
could you feel that like, Did you you felt that like everybody else feels the same way that I

Rowan 12:41
do. Yeah, and I was sitting at a table with another girl, and we, like, were talking right away. And in those kind of situations, I think I forget I am not a people person, but I can, like, I know how to socialize, like, I know how to have conversations. And sometimes I forget that. And I'm like, I don't want to talk to anybody, but, like, I can, and in that situation, I wanted to, because I was going to be with these people for the next six months. And it was easy for me. Like, once I was there and I was like, Okay, well, that that was the first day, so it got a lot easier.

Casey O'Roarty 13:19
I love that. I love hearing that, and you're a really good aesthetician, Rowan. Everyone listening. My skin got so much love over those six months, and I was a weekly client for you. Yeah, you learned a ton about skincare. You're on our case every day, about wearing our sunscreen. Do you want to do if it's sunscreen? PSA, right now,

Rowan 13:40
all you gotta be wearing your sunscreen, because sun damage causes 90% of aging.

Casey O'Roarty 13:48
Oh, there you go. 90% my audience is primarily between the ages of 35 and 55 so she's talking to us.

Rowan 13:58
Yeah, get your kids to start wearing their sunscreen. You start too it's not too late.

Casey O'Roarty 14:03
My favorite thing while you were in school was when you talked about your friends and like you talked about the side conversations and the banter and the silly things that came up during the day. What do you think you learned about yourself participating in that program?

Rowan 14:20
I think I forgot that sometimes, in my head I I make myself feel like I don't click around people, or that I just don't I don't know sometimes when it when it's been a long time without hanging, like, socializing, which it had been, it had been a really long time, it kind of gets into my brain like, I don't know if I'll like, fit in or whatever, but school definitely showed me that. I mean, I fit in really easily, and it's really easy to like, talk about my weekend, talk about boys I was talking to, or, like. Anything. And the girls in my class were, I was the youngest in my class by, like, about a year, so everybody was at least a little bit older than me. But like, all age ranges, mostly like early 20s to early 30s, and we all like, there wasn't a single person that I couldn't sit down with and have, like, a real conversation with, which I had never been in that environment before. And it was really I learned a lot from the people around me. It was, I miss it

Casey O'Roarty 15:35
well, and you're about to start, like, in a week, yeah, over a week, you're going to start at the community college. Do you feel like that learning is gonna is that something that's in your mind as you think about showing up first day for those classes, too, remembering that you have the tools and the skills? I

Rowan 15:52
feel like I'm feeling less I'm feeling more like, Okay, I'm just gonna, like, learn more about the learning, because I don't really care, because my, most of my class in beauty school, it was all girls, except for one guy and I, I'm better around girls. I just don't have priorities to like, be like, Oh, hey, I'm Rowan, what's your name on the first day? Or, like, I don't have priorities to do that. So they come to you anyway, right? Yeah, I'm just gonna let that happen.

Casey O'Roarty 16:25
Yeah? Good, yeah. Well, and you know, the interesting thing that keeps happening, and I credit part of it, Rowan, to how you know, the the generous gift that you've given me, which is permission to share our story. I am like a magnet for parents with teenagers that are struggling, and a lot of parents listened to our podcast last year, and I know I've told you this before, but so many of the listeners wrote in and talked about how grateful they were that you came on and shared about your experience. People had their teens listening to the conversation and made a huge impact. Our story has made a huge impact on people that are parenting teenagers and their their teens. How does that feel to know that,

Rowan 17:21
honestly, a little weird. Tell me more like, Wait, really like what I mean. It's nice to know that people like that what I've said has helped them, but I also feel like I want people to know that it's not, it's not like I it's not like I went through it and now I never feel as bad as I did, because I definitely like, am not happy most of the time, especially I mean, I also have seasonal depression, so during the winter, it's a lot, um, it just comes back more like, I think that's a big thing that parents with teens with mental health issues, like, once and you've mentioned It to me, like, sometimes you get scared when I am moody all day or something. And it's like, mental health is not, it's not like a scrape on your knee and then it's healed and then, and then you're fine. It's like, well, I guess it kind of is because then you could fall and scrape your knee again, but just because you've worked on it and you worked through it, I have skills, and I don't get as low as I did. I mean, sometimes I do, but I know how to, I know how to pull myself up a little bit, but which I didn't know how, before which that's the big difference is not that I never feel bad, it's just that I know how it doesn't last as long as it used to, and I know how to make myself feel a little better when I do feel sad.

Casey O'Roarty 19:15
Yeah, yeah. I think I've shared it with you. And again, for those of you who haven't heard Rowan, and I talk about this before it was episode 252, where she came on and shared so beautifully and so candidly. But I think for a lot of us and this, I've talked to other parents, other listeners, you guys who have kids that have had rough kind of mental health issues, and then start to pull out of it. And it does. It feels a little bit like PTSD when, you know, we see the darkness creeping back in, or it feels like there's a little breakdown happening. You know, I know in my experience, yeah, I have to remind myself, okay, it is not the fall of 2019, you know, we've been there. We're not. There, and just like you just said, like, I have to remind I get to remind myself, like she's got tools, she's got support.

I was thinking about last August. This came up for me. When you were you had about six weeks left of aesthetician school. Do you remember this? And you were sitting in the kitchen and the red chair, and you were like, oh, there's just so much. You were overwhelmed by the tasks that you had to get done. You were questioning if you even wanted to be an aesthetician. And you were just really in it. Can you talk a little bit about that day? Do you remember and how you were feeling?

Rowan 20:46
Yeah, I had stayed home like, three days in a row because I was sick, and I had missed like, a big makeup contest at school and stuff, and I had, yeah, I had a lot to get done before the end. And I tend to have this thing about time, or I feel like time is always running out, or something when I have something I have to do. And I had stayed home for three days, and my brain just works different. And I while I was in school, I was kind of planning, I think everything lasts forever in my head. And I was kind of planning like, Okay, I'm planning five years ahead, and I'll be an esthetician forever, and then by this age, I'll have this, this and this done, and I hadn't even graduated school yet, which school just teaches you the basics? And I tend to kind of see too far into the future, where it kind of damages where I am in the present, because I'm not actually there. I'm like, in the future in my head, like, daydreaming, um, and so yeah, after staying home from school for a few days, I was like, I've been I don't know if I even want to do this for at like, at first I was like, at all, but then I was like, for my career, like, I don't know I'm and then I was like, I'm 18, like, I don't know what I want to do for my career. And I, I think I was like, journaling or something. And I just, it just kind of clicked into my head, like, I want to be a writer. I want to like, not I want to be a writer, but like, like that. It would, it brought me joy to think about going like, learning about writing more or like in the writing field, being a publisher or an author or an editor or something, and I couldn't stop thinking about it for a day. It was literally a day. And then I sat in the chair, and I was like, Mom, I don't know if I want to do this anymore, and that's what happens. I commit to something, and then I have another idea in my head, and then once I say it, it kind of becomes everything that I think. But I finished school. You sure did. Of course I did, and I passed my tests and I officially completed it.

Speaker 1 23:16
Yep, you still give a great facial. At least there's that, yeah, yeah. And I remember just having conversations with you a year ago, even where you were like, I am never I'm like, maybe you want to go to college later. And you were like, No. And so when you came to me this fall, and you were like, so I think I might want to go to college.

Rowan 23:37
That's exactly how I

Speaker 1 23:42
and I'm just excited for you to be interested in learning, right? I mean, and that's the same thing with esthetician school, is it was a grand experience to get you into the learning environment and spark that desire to explore something. And you're right, you're 18, just because you did that. And even being a licensed aesthetician doesn't like trap you inside of something, yeah, yeah, and, and I do I remember that day because I was like, Oh God, I remember you. Were

Rowan 24:14
like, you cannot quit. Rowan, yeah. I was like,

Speaker 1 24:19
sorry, I know my that was my video day showing up. Yeah, yes, yes. And you know how quickly it was. I just want to point this out to the listeners. You know, this is my this is the place where I, we parents, get to really be aware of our own tendencies, because here you are, Rowan, having an experience, inviting me into it. And I immediately, well maybe not immediately, but pretty quickly, went into my own experience, right? Like, oh god, how am I going to make sure that this, she doesn't drop out of this? And what about this? And what about me? Like, I don't think I was consciously thinking, what about me, but it was quickly became my experience inside of my body, and it was sneaky, right? Even with everything I've learned and everything you continue to teach me, you know, I just want to have compassion for all of us, all the parents, too, because, you know, I feel like that's our that's our big work is to be with our kids and their experience and be able to separate what's ours from what's theirs, and what they need is us to stay with them, not us to get all spun out in our own experience.

Rowan 25:38
Yeah, because you don't need to attach to what? Yeah, if you stick with your kid versus what they're doing. Like, I don't know. I just like pictures that, like, if, like, if they chose, oh, you have to stay in school over what their kid says to them. Like, school doesn't last forever, but your kid's gonna be your kid,

Casey O'Roarty 26:00
right? And I was like, you're not dropping out of aestheticians. I was, I did think

Rowan 26:05
I wasn't even I was one day, I wasn't even thinking about it. I was just like, right?

Speaker 1 26:11
But I immediately went there, right? I immediately went there. So sorry about that.

Rowan 26:14
And I got the highest score on my school final in my class, yeah, so here, and I didn't

Casey O'Roarty 26:21
even know I could study it, but I did, yeah, you were having a tough day that that you didn't even know you could study, and then you did. And there is nothing better than going to a test having studied and you know, all the answers, ah, it's my favorite. And you finished strong. Did you feel supported when you were like, I think I want to do something different. I want to go I want to explore writing. Did you feel supported by me and your dad? Yeah, good. Then you graduated, then I graduated, and you had a week of doing nothing.

Rowan 26:57
Can we talk about nothing that I was like, oh my god, now I'm doing nothing. Now I need to do something all the time. So I spent five hours one day applying for medical, full time medical receptionist jobs.

Speaker 1 27:11
Yep, and, man, they loved you in those interviews. Yeah,

Rowan 27:15
they did. I was like, What the heck I've never even Yeah, I got like, two job offers in the span of like a day. And I was like, you guys don't mean, why do you want me so bad? But yeah, I started working at an eye doctor's office for 40 hours a week, looking up insurances, doing all the things, making phone calls. Like, the first time I had to make a phone call, my hands were shaking, my voice was shaking. But, I mean, by the end of it, like, I mean, it definitely taught me a lot of things, yeah, for sure, I can, like, pick up the phone easy now, like, I had to answer the phones all day there. Like, it was definitely a necessary evil, I guess,

Speaker 1 28:04
yeah, quickly you got the job. Yeah, 40 hours a week, 40 hours full time job. How was that? At

Rowan 28:13
first, I was like, Oh, wow, a job. And then I literally have not had a job. Like, I mean, when we first moved here in 2019 took me forever to get a job, and I got a job at a restaurant that I showed up for like, maybe four times in the span of, like, two months because they, like, didn't have room for me. And before that, I worked at like, a daycare for a couple months. So I've never, like, had a job, job, job. And I was like, oh, like, now I have a job. And then I was like, oh, like, I'm leaving when the sun doesn't come up, and I'm getting home when it's dark. And it was like, I really liked the people I was working with, and I liked it there, but then I would come home after working for nine hours and just not want to do anything, not want to talk to anyone, not want to do anything except for lay in my bed or read my book or, like, just not do the things that I had been doing, Like we had been going to kickboxing together before and, like, How many times have I gone since I had that job? Like, three, maybe, yeah,

and turn it around, starting tomorrow?

Maybe, yeah. But it made me, it did make me really depressed, like I could, I could go and it would be fine when I was there. But then I would come home and just be like, drained, yeah, and

Casey O'Roarty 29:45
you did it for a few weeks, and then you started to realize this is not a good fit for me. Well.

Rowan 29:52
And then I got sick and stayed home for that's always three days. And then I was like, Well, I wasn't then, but then I just. Kind of like let myself realize, like, what it was doing to me. I felt I barely had time to do the things that I was doing to keep myself up. I barely had time for that. And it definitely, it definitely wore me down. And, yeah, I was like, What about why?

Speaker 1 30:21
What have I done? Yeah, you had to have some hard conversations. I

Rowan 30:25
did, and I also realized my coworkers around me, they're all working to live. They're working to pay their rent, they're working to take care of their kids, to take care of their families, and they if their job made them sad, they can't afford to to quit or to cut back their hours. But I'm working to work. I'm working to fill up my time, and I and I realized how lucky I am, and I kind of that kind of made me less hard on myself, that like it's okay because I am only 18, and not a lot of 18 year olds have full time jobs, and it's totally okay. And I'm lucky that I get to even like, ask to cut back, which I did. I talked to my manager, which I was really freaking out about. I almost threw up on the way to work that day. And you did it anyway. I did it, and I cried. I I knew I was gonna cry, I told you, and I did. And she was like, It's okay. Like, you can tell me anything you need to tell me it's okay. And I was like, at first, I was like, I would really like to work part time, and I didn't really think, like nobody at my work was working part time, so I just didn't really know what that would look like, or if they would do that. And she was basically like, yeah, work full time for three more weeks, and we'll hire someone, and you can work three days a week. And I was like, Okay. And then the next week came along, and I was like, No, I have to quit. So I told her I was putting my two weeks in, and she said, No, you can't do that. We need you until the end of December, and then you can be on your way. And I was I was like, oh, okay, awkward. I stuck it out. I and then they hired a couple people, and I was working, like, three days a weeks, mostly two, because sometimes I'd have a day off until what Tuesday. This last Tuesday, 22nd was my last day, and I didn't even real like, everybody was so sad that I was leaving, and they were all like, like they I don't know. I just didn't really realize that they all like me so much I'm like, what I was barely even here like me already.

Casey O'Roarty 32:51
Rowan, it's something that's really endearing about you. You have no idea the impact that you make on people and how attracted they are to you. And you know, I know you like to be April from Parks and Rec, but you're really not. You are sweet. You are sweet and easy to be around. So of course, they were sad to see you go and you know from the parent perspective that some of the things that I saw you flex into was resiliency and perseverance and having hard conversations and advocating for yourself and advocating for your mental health, like there were so I was while I was both, oh god, oh god, especially in the mornings when you'd get up and you'd just look on your face, I know, and I you know, there were some mornings where I just waited for you to initiate conversation because I knew if I said anything, it would, you know, well, I felt like I Okay, I'm just gonna make her some breakfast and not engage and because I knew that you were right there on the edge, right, and I didn't want to Be someone or something that kind of tipped you over because you had to go to work. You had to go to work even though you didn't want to. But I saw so many amazing life skills that you had to practice through that, that you got to experience, you know, you can have conversations. You know, what you can do in a different way than before you took that job.

Rowan 34:21
Yeah, it was definitely good, and it's taught me a lot of things. Because while they also told me, Oh no, you can't quit, she was also like, talk to me throughout the week, so you so we don't see you one day and then you're gone the next day. And I and that kind of was like, oh, like, I didn't. I

Speaker 1 34:41
was like, I know you can't quit, but we're also very aware that you can just stop showing up. Yeah.

Rowan 34:46
I was like, Oh, wait, yeah. But at that point, like, I see my job was very reliant on everyone being there, because it really like, if one person didn't show up, it like, impacted every. Everybody's day, which I like the people I worked with, so I want to do that to them, even though it was so hard, it was really hard to get through the last few weeks of working full time. Yeah, and you did it, I did it, and now I won't ever go back.

Speaker 1 35:21
What would you say to parents who have older teens like you, who may be feeling that pressure, that tension of maybe making the wrong choice? Like, I've even, you know, I've had clients that I've talked to who are kids who with kids the same age as you, who are in college and are realizing this first semester, like, I don't want to go to this school, and this isn't where I want to be. Like, what can you say to parents so that we because I also think there is a there is, there is. And I felt it like with you in this work thing, like, on one hand, I wanted to be I wanted to validate you, of course, and let you know that I love you no matter what. And I also wanted to push you a little bit like, to offer like, when you had so much self doubt, I wanted to help you fill that gap a little bit by being a voice of like, No, you, you can do this. Yeah,

Rowan 36:17
and it was, it was definitely hard to hear that, because, as my mom, I wanted you to be like, like, I felt like, if you had been like, Oh, baby, like, it's okay, then I wouldn't have, then I would like, have felt like, Okay, I don't need to go back, you know. But you and dad kept being like, you need to finish strong, like, like, because it was my first like, actual job in a few years. So if I want to, like, obviously, I want to get another job. So I need to finish strong for this one, so that they'll actually say good things about me. And I realized that, and it definitely helped for you guys to not, like, give in to me. Kind of you, I know you guys were like, like, obviously it was hard for me, but I mean, if I was already doubting it, it would not have helped if you were also like, oh, you can just Yeah. Stop going, yeah. But I feel like that's what I do. I make I decide something, and then I don't talk to anybody about it. I just do it

Casey O'Roarty 37:25
right? And meaning getting a full time medical receptionist job? Yes, yes.

Rowan 37:32
And then I'm like, Well, why did I do I like, and but then it's like, I did it to myself. That's, that's how I feel. I'm like, Okay, I did this to myself. It's my fault, so I have to deal with it and then not do it again. That's how I feel. And I've done that. I mean, I make decisions, and then I'm like, I don't want to, I don't want to be doing this. Like, I do that a lot, and I feel like, like, if you have a kid that's in school that doesn't, that didn't realize that college is going to be a certain way whatever. I mean, I wouldn't be like, Oh, you have to stay there. Well, you know, like, maybe it's hard a semester or something, because, and then you can, like, go. Because, why would you want your kid to stay somewhere that they don't like? Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 38:24
mean, what you keep teaching me, Rowan, is I can trust you, and I can trust you to make choices feel things out like you feel you really feel things out and when you know like this isn't, this wasn't the right move. I mean, just this job thing, what really was helpful to me watching you, because while I didn't want you to quit, but i It's not that I didn't want you to quit, you didn't want me to fail. Oh, I didn't want you to fail, but I didn't, you know I wanted, I just want it. I mean, I want you to feel good. Like we all parents, you guys are listening right? Like we want our kids to feel good. We don't want them. We don't want to see mental health getting in the way of you doing what you want to do. And I think for someone like me and parents like hard in the winter, it's hard in the winter. And everyone we live in the Pacific Northwest, so literally, it is pitch black outside, pitch black outside. Right now, it's 530 and it's been pretty dark since 430 and the sun doesn't come up till like 730 so, you know, it's dark. But I think too, you know, like it's hard. It's that dance of, you know, it's just it's so painful being on the outside and seeing, just seeing mental health stuff get in the way. That's That's what feels really hard. And I feel the beautiful thing about you, Rowan, and what we have created together is a really open, honest relationship where you can be very straight up with me when I'm getting it wrong and I. Feel like I can be pretty straight up with you too and let you know, like, Hey, here's here are the two things that I'm feeling right now, and you know, and you can in you support with that. And I feel like your flexibility both of us, right? Like flexibility is really something that we both get to continue to develop. Yeah, yeah. I mean you and your brother and your dad, you guys teach me every day that these are the relationships where I have to be the most flexible because I'm not in charge of everyone, which is super annoying to me, because I want to be but we're all on separate journeys, even as we live together and love each other. So yeah, let's talk about tattoos. We're

Speaker 1 40:52
gonna talk about two more things. Everyone keep listening, tattoos and Tinder. So let's start with tattoos. So tell the people about your tattoos and your dreams for future tattoos.

Rowan 41:01
I want tattoos everywhere, except for my

Speaker 1 41:04
where my face. Oh, good, thank God,

Rowan 41:07
yeah. Um. I got my first tattoo on my 18th birthday, and then another, like four months after that, and then another, like two months after that, and I've been trying to get another one, but everybody's like, booked up, whatever. Anyways, I love tattoos. And I didn't realize, I mean, I thought I was gonna get my first tattoo and be like, Oh, wow, I love this tattoo. Wow, that's so great. And then beyond with my life. But after I got it, I was like, Okay, now I need another one. I like, I need, like, I love this tattoo, and I need another one. And then after I got my next one, I was immediately like, I love this tattoo, I need another one. And it, like, never it. And then I got my other one, and I'm like, hey, now I need another one. And it never, didn't stop, stops in my head. I mean, if I had, if I had a bunch of money, I would be getting tattoos every week. But I love tattoos. Okay, I have big, big plans. I've been daydreaming all the time about finishing, um, my left arm sleeve I have, like, a quarter of my forearm tattooed, and then a big one on my on my upper arm. And I dream, I mean, as much as my mom.

Casey O'Roarty 42:29
Well, hey, listen, let me talk to myself. Okay, so Generation Z you guys, you love tattoos. You love tattoos. I think the Gen Xers, we like tattoos too. Many of us. I mean, love them. Well, I was raised in a household that shared so much judgment around tattoos. Yeah, so much judgment that it did. It took me till I was in my 30s to get my first little tattoo on my ankle. And even then, I was like, Oh my God, what's my dad gonna say, right? 30. And then, you know, some of you maybe have seen the one that I have in my videos, on my wrist and and so I'm not anti tattoo. I like tattoos. I love, I love there's some beautiful art pieces on bodies. I love that. And I come back to, I think this is where my pain exists, is that you don't know how you're gonna feel like that's really but this is where, like everyone, this is what happens in my head. I'm like,

Rowan 43:34
this is where our this is where our minds do not think alike, right, right moment. And honestly,

Speaker 1 43:40
that's why it took me 30 years to get into that too, because I wasn't anti tattoos till I was in my 30s, I was like, Oh my God, I don't know how I'm going to feel about this in 10 years, and until I can think of something that I'm going to truly want till I'm dead, I'm not going to do it because I don't know how I'm going to feel. And then watching my child you, who is such a different kind of expressive person and very confident. And I'm like, But wait you're 18. Like, wait till your brain's fully developed. Wait till you know, you know, when I think about being 18, it is a cringy memory lane for me. And

Rowan 44:16
who know? I mean, like you, we have two different ways of thinking about tattoos. There's the I'm gonna wait and see, and I'm gonna find something that I'm gonna want on my body forever, and then how I think about it is, I want this tattoo right now, and and i i probably, I mean, how am I supposed to know what I'm gonna feel like in 40 years, like I want it now, and if I do, I won't. I don't regret, I mean, I've done questionable things in the past. I don't regret things, but I think about it as if somehow I'm like, Oh, I don't. I wish I hadn't have gotten that. I It represents a period of my life that I did, that it meant something to me. I did that I felt I wanted it so bad that I wanted it on my body. So even if I'm looking back at it and I'm like, Oh, I think about I would think, well, like, it was a period of time that I it meant a lot to me to have it on me so

Casey O'Roarty 45:18
well, what helps? Yeah, what helped me? The last time we were talking about this in the kitchen, couple weeks ago, and I was like, like, I'm super obvious with my face. You know exactly how I what I think, and I realized, and you know what, maybe you won't like it in 10 years. And guess what, it's my journey. That's your problem. Yeah. Like, it was this huge epiphany that I had. Like, Oh, right, that's your problem, not my problem. And you know what? Your tattoos are, really beautiful. Rowan, thank you. Yeah, yeah, they're really beautiful, and they're yours. What do you okay, I'm not gonna ask that question. So what? Let's talk about Tinder.

Rowan 45:56
Okay, fine. Well, I was

Casey O'Roarty 45:58
gonna say, What do you want to say to parents with kids who want tattoos,

Rowan 46:01
let them get whatever they want, if they if they are 18 years old. Yeah, I have friends whose parents won't let them get a tattoo until they finish college. Like,

whatever leverage. Yeah, we use it as leverage. Like,

if you have been telling your kids as they're growing up that it's your body, like you decide what to do with your body, then you need to prove that and let your kids do what they want to their bodies. It's, it's not your body to decide how they treat it like it's, it's theirs, which I'm sure like, I can only imagine, that must be freaking hard, birth someone out, and then be their mom for their whole life, and then, and then they, like, have their own brain and whatever I mean, but it's true. Yeah,

Speaker 1 46:55
that's an important point. I mean, we talk about body autonomy all the time, yeah, and then you guys become teenagers, and all of a sudden we want to police your body, so that's good,

Rowan 47:05
and it's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna be 30 years old and be like I was pissed at you, because you How could you let me give myself tattooed like, no, if I, if I did do that, I would have some problems with myself, because you gave me the decision to do it, and I did, like it was my it's been my decision. It will be my decision when I get my whole body tattooed.

Speaker 1 47:36
Okay, what about Tinder? So Rowan, it was like February, I think of last year maybe. No, it was January. It was January. You were like, I have to tell you something which is the worst. And I said, Yeah. And you said, I got it. I got Tinder. You were like, yeah. I was like, oh god. The first thing I thought of was dead in a ditch, of course. And then I sat down next to you

Rowan 48:03
many times. You've sat down next to me many times, and we've spent hours swiping through

Casey O'Roarty 48:08
Tinder, swiping, yes, this is a place where our generational gap is so big because I Met Your Dad. I was 21 when I Met Your Dad, online dating wasn't a thing. Chat rooms weren't a thing. Like email was not even hardly a thing. So there was, it was just never a part of my life, and I also, full transparency, would be a disaster, like, had I had an opportunity for something like gender? Oh god, it would have been so not okay anyway. So here you are, and I'm just like, Oh my God, tell me more about it. What do you like about it? What's fun about it? Well, or is it fun?

Rowan 48:50
I have my I've since I've deleted my account, like last week, it I went on a total I met up with three different guys over the year of having Tinder, two of them only one time, and one of them twice, but, and it was really weird. And anyways, anyways, the thing is, I expected Tinder to be full of so many hot guys. Like, oh my god, they're gonna I just love hot boys. You know, I was like, Oh, my God, perfect. But it was like, and in the first few days of having it, I mean, my anxiety went through the roof. Even in the first like few days of having it, I it was harder for me to eat. It was I spent so much time on my phone. I was like, it just made me I had also come out of a breakup of, like, a year and a half, and so I hadn't it was, like new talking to people like that. So I think that's where some of the anxiety came from. But I slowly realized Tinder is full of douche. Bags full of guys that are not good looking like more often than not, you'll sit there and swipe through Tinder, you'll keep swiping and swiping and swiping and not find a single attractive dude, I mean. And of course, all of it is relative, because it is Tinder, you know. And there are guys that present like, not very cute online, because guys don't know how to take pictures of themselves. They don't. They really do not. And it was just like, you know, first glimpse, like, do I think you're cute or not? And it was, I mean, of course, I loved the validation. You know, I'm an 18 year old girl on Tinder, and I also quickly found out how creepy it is. Yeah, I was having guys like 2526 27 super like me, which means that they like they pay for Tinder, and they want to get your attention so bad. They super like you. And it was like, guys that were like, 10 years older than me. And it made me feel really weird, because I was like, how I was like, Why are you looking at me like that? Why is your age range set to 18 when you're 27 and yeah, I mean, there's, there's good guys on Tinder, but there's also creeps and weirdos. And how

Casey O'Roarty 51:25
do you filter pretty, filter that and like, no, and keep yourself safe.

Rowan 51:30
I mean, I never, I met up with them a couple times. You know, like, I, I'm like,

Speaker 1 51:35
meaning you don't. You're not in it to even. So what you're saying is, like, You, only met three different people over the course of the year. Yeah, like you felt really confident that they were who they were. Well,

Rowan 51:49
I knew that they were who they were. That was, that's not an issue. I feel like parents like, that's not the biggest issue you're gonna have is someone saying they're someone else and being a different identity. It's someone pretending like they're nice, but being like aggressive or not,

that's what I mean. That's what I mean. Yeah,

I mean, there's only so much you can know from talking online. But yeah, I mean speaking for myself, only myself, because I know lots of people would be different. I didn't want to meet up with people, plus covid. You can just talk over Snapchat so that you can call me pretty a lot, and we can, like, flirt and stuff. But I don't want to meet you. I don't want any expectation of meeting you, which happened a lot, a lot, and I got pretty anxious about a lot of them. Just couldn't take no for an answer, and I would be explicitly say, like, No, I'm not interested, and be met with like, oh, blah, blah, blah. Like, that one guy like, Oh, you just need me for validation, boosting your ego. You need help for that. And it's Yeah, I used you for validation.

Speaker 1 53:10
Like, I Yeah, using you just because he's hoping to get laid. So yeah.

Rowan 53:15
Like, come on, bro, yeah. It was definitely quite a year, I wasn't hanging out with people, so I was just kind of, that's kind of how I was socializing, which was not the best way. But we were going to school, and yes, I was going to school, and I Yeah, the first two Tinder dates I went on. The first one was disappointing. You know, I was like, okay, but at least nothing bad happened to me. You know, I was hanging out with a guy that was much bigger than me. He remember that guy? He was like, six foot six. I got into his car. I'm so sorry, car. And nothing bad happened to me that time, and I and he had, since, like, blown up my phone. I had to block him on all social media. And he was, like, texting me on Facebook, like, and then it, like, blew up in my face. And it kind of like Tinder, I feel like, works for some people. I mean, it depends on what you want out of it. Like, want to go hook up with people. Like, great, I don't, I thought, I kind of thought I maybe wanted to, but, like, I don't think I can. I don't think I'm emotional for that. Um, I just get so nervous about meeting people for the first time, and that's all it is. And I kind of realized, like, over and over and over, yeah, and I so I deleted Tinder. And I'm like, okay, if I'm gonna, I mean, I don't even want a boyfriend. First of all, I don't want to hook up with people also, like, randomly. And so I'm like, Okay, what am I on it for? So that they can call me pretty

and stuff. I'll call you pretty all day long. Day fine.

I mean, yeah, I'll, like, there's. Still on my Snapchat, they'll still talk to me and stuff, but it's like I deleted it because I just felt like it was there's a lot of expectation from them, like wanting, expecting, just because we matched that we would hang out, but I owed them something for that, because we both matched with each other and stuff like that. Well,

Speaker 1 55:22
what I appreciate about this conversation Rowan is one little inside glimpse for those of us who don't know anything about Tinder, Yep, thank you for sharing your experience with it. But also I just feel really privileged that you and I have the relationship that we have, that you are super open with me about it, so I feel like it's a nice little opportunity for people that are listening to hear what a conversation around this stuff can sound like. Because you are, you're 18, do I want you on Tinder? No, no, right? And you are, you're making choices for yourself. And I get to, I get to be in conversation with you, and be in curiosity and listen, you know, I'm always listening for, how is she keeping herself safe? What are her red flags, you know? And so having these kinds of conversations, I think, helps me and you know, by default, hopefully the listeners understand how to be in that kind of conversation so that they can feel better about some of the things that their kids might be doing that we just don't get because it's just not a part of of what our experience has been. So what are you hoping for? For 2022 Rowan,

Rowan 56:34
oh God. Like, I can't say too much, because what if it doesn't come

Speaker 1 56:39
true? That's okay. You know, seen my vision board from last year. I mean, we should look at it, because it's funny.

Rowan 56:47
I don't know. I just want it to be, you okay,

yeah, you know.

I just don't want it to be too bad. I don't know, yeah, yeah. Want it to be like this year, like, I grew a lot, and I realized that I am not happy a lot of the time, which is fine. It's okay, because that's just how I kind of it's not like sounds like a bad thing when I say it like that. But I realized a lot this year that how, how much my my mental health fluctuates, which is fine because it's normal, and I've kind of learned that it's okay because I also, I also had something in my mind of like, okay, now everybody thinks I'm better, so I Have to be better, right? But talking to you more and kind of like, it helps when I, like, tell you, like, Okay, I'm depressed, like I told you earlier today, like I took a depression nap today, close all my blinds, and I laid in bed for an hour. But I'm just kind of hoping that 2022, is okay, you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 58:00
I'm hoping it's okay too. I'm hoping it's okay too. I'm hoping for good mental and physical health for our family and abundance.

Rowan 58:10
Hope I don't make too many nerd decisions, please. I'm just asking myself, please, just think about things a little bit more.

Casey O'Roarty 58:17
Have a conversation with get a consensus. Okay, it's okay, yeah, yes, yes. And I'm hoping that you have all good experiences as you enter into school. Yep. I am hoping that I get into graduate school everyone I am applying to the clinical mental health counseling program at Western Washington University here in Bellingham. Fingers crossed, they barely take any people. So I really hope people I get in so we can all send good vibes out for that. That'd be great. And I'm going to be sharing a big announcement about joyful courage and the future of joyful courage around mid January. So stay tuned for that Rowan. I love you. I love you. Thank you for coming on and talking to me about all the teenager things that you have been going through. And I know there's a lot of listeners that have followed from the beginning with us and are loving hearing an update on you and your journey, because you really do make an impact when you come on here and talk about it and to everyone that's listening. I love you. Happiest of New Years. Enjoy yourself this weekend, and I'll be back next week with a brand new solo show to bring in the new year. I love you. Rowie, Love you. Bye. You

Speaker 1 59:47
okay again. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. I just can't even put into words how much I love this community. I love you all. I'm so happy. To Bring You conversations that hopefully matter to you. I'm really hoping that you appreciated that conversation with Rowan. There are so many amazing things happening with joyful courage in the new year, and I am so excited to share them as they unfold. Just know that the first of the year is the opening for enrollment to living joyful courage, my year long membership program that includes two monthly facilitated coaching calls, book clubs, one on one, calls, so much goodness. Check it out. Joyful courage.com/ljc. Dot com, slash, lJC, the first you can enroll. So go and check it out. And are you on my email list? If you're not, go to joyful courage.com/email get signed up now so you can stay up to date on all the things that are heading your way. You're going to get seven tips over seven days to support you in nurturing stronger connections with your tweens and teens. If you listened to this conversation with Rowan and are thinking about what it would be like to be able to be in conversation like this with your teenager, the tips will help open the door to that I am so grateful for the way that I can talk to my kids and that they're willing to talk to me, and I just want to share that with all of you. So check that out. Joyful courage.com/email. Will get you there. And if you feel inspired and you haven't already, do me a favor, head over to Apple podcast. Leave a review. I'm always working really hard to stand out and make a big impact on families around the globe. Your review helps the podcast to be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Have a beautiful New Year's weekend. However you are celebrating, and I will be back with a brand new show for the brand new year next week. Big Love

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