Eps 295: Avoiding Codependency with Alana Carvalho

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Alana Carvalho 0:00
I think that your kids are going through a period where they're really developing their sense of self, when they can move through that and feel your support without enmeshment. There's a sense of confidence, there's a sense of trust in oneself that develops that is really important and key for our children as they move into adulthood.

Casey O'Roarty 0:28
Hey, friends, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey o'brdie, positive discipline lead, trainer, parent, coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey. Relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, and I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. I'm grateful that what I put out matters to you, and I am stoked to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show.

My guest today is Alana Carvalho, did I say that right? Alana, thank you. You're welcome. Alana is a licensed mental health counselor who focuses on helping parents, couples and individuals build balanced relationships by releasing old patterns and becoming more authentic. She is especially passionate about helping individuals see how healing codependency and perfectionism can lead to a more joy filled life. Alana has lectured on child development at the College of Staten Island. Her first book raising empowered children, the codependent, perfectionist guide to parenting, is now available on amazon.com Alana maintains her private practice in midtown Manhattan, and is currently seeing clients virtually. You can connect with her through her website, Instagram, podcasts, or you can email her at Alana. At Alana Carvalho,

Alana Carvalho 2:28
did I say it right that time? It's good to say it that way, so people know there's an H in there. Okay.com.

Casey O'Roarty 2:35
Listeners, you know all the links will be in the show notes. Hi Alana, welcome to the podcast.

Alana Carvalho 2:41
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 2:44
I'm so happy. This has been a long time coming. I feel like I was intrigued by your Instagram handle, which is the codependent perfectionist, and it drew me right to you and your work and so much of what you're creating lands so deeply for me. Can you paint us a picture of what a codependent perfectionist looks like. And I have to say, I'm hoping that I'm not going to resonate too hardcore with it.

Alana Carvalho 3:07
You may. I mean, I'll give myself as an example, because, you know, I call myself the codependent perfectionist, and I do that because I want people to understand that, that this is my journey as well. I'm a therapist, but I'm also in recovery from codependency and perfectionism. And what I kind of looked like pre therapy, pre my own therapy, was somebody who really just kind of said yes, like, didn't really know how to say no to people, whether it was something big or something small. I was someone who tried to fix other people, and felt like it was my responsibility to make sure people weren't struggling, or if they were that, that I gave advice and tried to make it different for them. And you know, of course, I had no concept of what it meant to put up boundaries with people. So I was kind of accepting all sorts of different types of behavior and not really considering, like, you know, what my needs were and what I didn't want from other people, and how I could speak to them about it, or, you know, let them know that I'm not, not okay with something. I was terrified of doing that, terrified of saying no or making people feel bad. So that's kind of how my codependency manifested, for the most part, and also feeling other people's feelings, you know, just a lot of enmeshment. And then in terms of the perfectionism piece for me, like the most basic way of saying it is really just holding ourselves to unrealistic standards. Our standards are too high, and that was me too, you know, I would be the type of student that would be stressing out to try to get an A because they just needed to have that A, and just making life much more difficult with, you know, our x. The expectations that we have of ourselves. So,

Casey O'Roarty 5:02
yes, I do see myself inside of that for sure. And I, you know, I'm pretty well I, before I go there, tell me about, like, What drew you to kind of tease this. Like, what was your bottom, you know? What was it that got you to recognize, like, Ooh, this is something I need to is not working for me. Well,

Alana Carvalho 5:26
I talk about in my book how I really suffered from kind of a low level depression, I would say, my whole life, throughout my childhood, into my teen years, and then my early adulthood, and I went to see a therapist, actually, more so not because of that, which is probably why I should have gone, but I went to see a therapist because I knew I wanted to become a therapist one day, and that was really like the impetus for me going. But what I recognized there was the fact that I was suffering from a low level depression, that I that I did have these issues of codependency and perfectionism that were very much contributing and a part of that depression that I was experiencing. So for me, when I recognized that, it was like, wow, you know, it's just such a big awakening on my part,

Casey O'Roarty 6:14
I am really interested in the codependency piece I led a group of parents a few years back, and one of the moms used that phrase a lot. It was not necessarily a phrase that I had any real great understanding of, and I still kind of feel like I don't totally grasp codependency, and I think I do, and I want to understand better, because, as you know, my my listeners, are parents of tweens and teens, and I feel like, man, it is a slippery slope, that tendency to be codependent. Can you define what it looks like in the context of parenting? Sure,

Alana Carvalho 6:58
absolutely. Yeah. So this is primarily what I what I also speak about in the book, which is codependency and parenting can look like us as parents, and I'm a parent myself. So you know, this comes up for me, of course, as well, when we have trouble kind of seeing the the separation or the boundary between ourselves and our children. So like, for example, if our child is going through something really difficult, we're seeing it almost as our experience, rather than seeing it as their experience. You know, like we're having our own emotional reaction to it, and perhaps a meshing into that, and then blurring the lines between, like, what is mine and what is theirs, or we're struggling to allow our children to experience hardship or difficulty, which, of course, happens a lot in the the teen and tween years, you know. And so we can be compelled to try to fix things for them, or change things for them. And perhaps one of the ways I see it, you know, the most, is with parents that are trying to get their children not to feel feelings that they have, you know, or what we refer to as helicopter parenting, where they're kind of like swooping in and trying to fix everything. And I myself actually really saw how this manifested in parenting when I was doing a group for parents of teens who had substance abuse and mental health issues, yes, oh, God. And you know, I really feel for parents who are going through that struggle. I mean, it's immensely challenging. So, you know, it's understandable that when your kid is going through something that significant, of course, you want to, you want them not to have to go through that. You want them not to feel the pain and the struggle of what they're going through. But what I noticed was that what the parents in this group were doing was actually dysfunctional for their children, because they weren't allowing their children to to learn how to independently, in some ways, move through the experience with the course of support of their parent. But you know, it's not to say, like, I think that's where codependency gets confusing. People think I'm saying, like, Okay, you just, like, abandon your child and let them do it on their own. No, that's not what I'm saying. And I imagine we'll probably get into some of that. But what I am saying is that no you want to be supportive and loving, but not in a way where you're so entrenched in the experience that you can't you can't function well yourself. Or, you know, you're constantly in a high state of stress, or you find yourself just constantly worrying about your children. That's where it becomes really dysfunctional.

Casey O'Roarty 9:49
Do you feel like it's, it's nuanced, right? Because I'm thinking about, you know, not too long ago in our family, we were dealing. With some mental health Well, we were dealing with mental health crisis, and just, you know, some days I felt real. I thought to myself, like, Oh, my God, I am way too enmeshed in this. Like, her pain is my pain. And I didn't really know how, but I also recognize, like, okay, but I'm having a parallel experience being the parent of a child who is suffering, sure. So it was really interesting to kind of play with that. Like, where is the line? And I'm sure there's no like, well, the line is right here. But what is it like? Like, how? What are some indicators, I guess, that we've crossed over from like, yes, of course, you're my child and I love you, and you're hurting, and that is painful for me, into like, overly enmeshed, and I can't handle my discomfort, so I gotta make sure your discomfort goes away, so that I feel better. Like, where's the what are the indicators?

Alana Carvalho 11:01
You know, I was on cat gnats podcast a couple weeks ago, and actually, they gave a great example of this that I'll share with you guys. They were talking about how one of their sons was going through a really difficult time at school, and it was something that was like, incredibly, you know, painful. And one of the mothers said, you know, I was feeling so much from it. And so I went, what I realized is that, you know, I'm having a lot of feelings, and I need to kind of separate from this right now. And so she she allowed herself space to go into her bathroom and cry and just like really feel into what she was feeling about it. And of course, that is completely normal and appropriate, right? Like we're going to have feelings like that when, when we're seeing our children struggle, and when she was able to kind of get herself back together and then speak to her son, her son made a comment to her about it when she was talking to him, like, you know, Mom, it's really okay. You know, these things happen when, when you're, you know, this age, and and he was just so, like, mature about it, and the way he was handling it was so well. And so in that moment, she realized, like, Oh my God. Like the feelings that are going on here are all really, all about me and not really about him and what you know, they're not, I'm, like, projecting my feelings onto him, but they're not actually his feelings. And so she was able to separate from that and recognize that it wasn't his stuff, it was hers. And then when she could feel the feelings, and then come back to him after she had, like, done some releasing and processing she could hold space for him in a way that wasn't entangled with her emotional reaction to it. Does that? Does that answer your question? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:50
it does. And I, and I am, I'm gonna, like, dig in a little bit here, mostly because you mentioned your the group of parents that you worked with with teens that are dealing with mental health, because I have people in my community who, you know, are having to call crisis lines, or, you know, have kids that are needing to, you know, go into mental health facilities and be supported. And I, my heart is just like, so tender for those parents. And I'm just like, in that kind of situation, I know that's extreme, and I always it's funny, because when people are like, What about let me give you the worst case scenario. Give me the answers. I'm totally doing that to you right now. Okay, and yes, like making time for ourselves finding space, but then even as we make time for ourselves and find space, like, what is that? What does that look what does that processing look like as we sit with, you know, just really intense things that our kids, that our teens are going through,

Alana Carvalho 13:49
you know, I think it depends, of course, on the experience and what it means for every one of us to make space for ourselves. I think, of course, can look different, not always crying in the bathroom, but it's great that even the people that you're talking about are obviously getting support from your community, and the people that I was talking about were getting support within a group of similar people. And so for me, that's one of, like, the key elements, like going to other adults that are going through similar challenges or or can just understand and empathize with you, is like one of the best ways that you can process and move through the feelings that you're experiencing. You know, because without, without having a support like that, oh my God, you're gonna go crazy in some of these, like, challenging situations, you know, so I think, and also, just to say, your spouse or your you know, your partner can't necessarily be that person for you. So if that's who you're relying on, I think that's a little limited, like I. I would suggest to the people listening to continue developing community outside of, you know, family members, because they're in it with you. So they're then having their own reaction to it. And then, you know, you may, particularly if you're codependent like myself, you may then feel like, Oh my God, I need to manage their experience of this too, and that doesn't really help provide space for you to go through your feelings, and you know process on it

Casey O'Roarty 15:26
well. And I love that you just referenced yourself as codependent like you. And I want everyone to catch that, you know, like we are, whether it's a controlling temperament or a codependent temperament or whatever these are all like ongoing day to day. I know this about myself, so I'm gonna take care of myself. I'm gonna be extra aware of how I'm showing up, because I know that I tend to X, Y and Z. Thank you for modeling that. Alana and I love that you've brought it back to community. I think that it's so easy because we don't, especially the parents of tweens and teens. It's not like when they're little and we just broadcast like, oh my god, potty training. What a pain, you know, or like, or whatever you know, once they become teenagers, one they, you know, there's a certain level of privacy for them, of course, but there's also a lot of, well, the word shame comes up for parents. Like, maybe our kids aren't the valedictorian or aren't the top athlete and aren't, you know, posting on Facebook on signing day to say where our kids are going to college, maybe our kids aren't going to college. Maybe, you know, like, right? And there's this, like, held belief about what it should look like, and If and so many I mean what I find, because I am an external processor, and I do find my people and talk about my stuff, and what I find is more likely than not people are relating more with my story than this ideal story,

Alana Carvalho 16:59
right, which is really interesting, absolutely. I mean that that, to me, is like, one of the sad facts of our society is that we don't often like, tell the truth and the honest stuff that's going on behind the scenes. And I just hope that with those of us who are willing to like, be brave enough to come forward and say, Yeah, this is what I'm struggling with, or, you know, this is what my kid is going through, and I'm, I'm having a really tough time, and it makes me feel this way, you know, whatever that is, that it normalizes it for the true majority of us that are all feeling that way, actually, but nobody wants to say it, because we're, kind of programmed not to, you know, right?

Casey O'Roarty 17:43
And coming back to our kids having a hard time, I mean, it is, it's we love them so much, and it is really hard to be with their hurt and their pain and their discomfort, even when we know in our heads, I think there's our head and then there's our heart, right, even when we know in our head that it's part of the process of growing the tools that they need to navigate what is very you know, typically just part a part of life. What tips or ideas do you have for parents listening to support them in allowing the feelings that are showing up for their kids? Sure,

Alana Carvalho 18:21
so I think what you just said is actually really important. What I the reason that I named my book raising empowered children is because actually, when we try to control or fix for our children or get them not feeling the feelings they're feeling, we actually disempower them. We actually take away some of their resiliency and their ability to move through difficult situations. So what my suggestion off the bat for those of you listening is to think about how doing some of the things that feel really loving can actually take away some of our children's agency, and what can actually be really loving is helping them by taking a step back and not trying to control the situation and just supporting them, being empathic, acknowledging and validating the difficulty of what they're going through, you know, like, for example, and this is a small example, but the other day, when my daughter got out of school, she started telling me about something that had happened with a friend of hers, and then she told me about something else that happened that was negative. And, you know, of course, like, my inclination is like, oh, like, you know, that's terrible. I don't want her to, you know, I don't want her to feel that way. And I'm thinking, you know, of course, like the codependent part of me wants to, should I talk to the teacher about, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 19:49
who do I need to talk to?

Alana Carvalho 19:51
And then, you know, I stopped, and I said, um, sounds like you had a tough day. And she said, yeah. Yeah, and then that was it. And I think why that felt so significant is that I didn't try to change it. I didn't try to get as much information as I could so that I knew exactly which what was going on, and so I could feel like I could control it in some way. Or, you know, I just acknowledged the experience, and also was showing her that if she wanted to talk more about it with me, she absolutely could. I'd be happy to hear it, but I also acknowledge that she can have some privacy around it, too. And so you know what I would say in terms of tips, is finding this balance where you know you're being supportive, you're listening, but you're not like encroaching on, on your children and so not, not trying to ask questions that perhaps have an agenda to them, like, you know, think about like, what is this question about? Is it me trying to get them to get somewhere or feel something, and just acknowledging it, like, acknowledging the feelings, acknowledging like, yeah, it seems like you're really upset. Yeah, it seems like you're really frustrated, you know, whatever it is that they're going through, just letting it be, whatever it is, and not then saying, okay, what can we do about it? Or how can we change that? Maybe just giving them a hug, you know, or just sitting next to them while they're crying and going through it and just and just being quiet in that moment, you know, so that they can really, because what that allows for them is to feel safe with you, that they can share something and that you're not going to, you know, take it somewhere that they they really don't feel comfortable, or they don't want, want it to go something

Casey O'Roarty 21:40
that came up in our journey is, and it's funny, because I get this, like, directly from my mom, is when, you know, we went through a period of time where depression really kind of took hold, and, you know, being there, holding space for her, and then Offering, like, how about you just take a walk? Why don't you just do a little yoga, you know? And thinking like, God, I'm really supportive, and I'm hearing her, and she's feeling seen. And what came out, we did a whole DBT. My listeners have heard me talk about DBT, like, 500 times. We did a DBT program together. And one of the things that came up when we talked about validating versus invalidating, is how invalidating it was when I would list off a bunch of activities that would somehow cure right? You know, like that was the the experience that she had of me was like. And then there was the list of all the things I should be doing that I couldn't bring myself to do, which only made me feel worse, right?

Alana Carvalho 22:43
Right? Yeah, and it's, it's so, you know, obviously, like you're coming from such a loving place saying that, and that's the tough part. It's like, it's not, we're not being cruel or malicious in any way, but right, that, but what our children feel from us is like, you have an agenda for me. You want me to do this thing or feel this way, and, like, that's not really what I'm looking for in terms of support, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 23:05
yeah, yeah. And it's funny, as I was listening to you, and especially when you said, like, who, which teacher should I talk to? So my, my daughter's 18, and she's in an esthetician program and and she's thriving and having such a good time. And even, you know, and it's full of adults, like, it's not a it's an, like an adult. It's like college, you know. And my desire to, like, pull the teacher aside and just simply say, like, you're creating a great classroom environment, and I'm really appreciating, like, I really want to gush to her, and I have that voice in my head saying, like, case, rein it in that would not be appropriate, you know. And I, you know, I remember balking at hearing about how more, over the last, you know, 10 or 15 years, how more and more parents are getting, you know, all up in the business of college professors and stuff, and feeling like, Oh, my God, how could they? And I'm completely resonating. I'm like, oh, that's how they could Right,

Alana Carvalho 24:04
exactly, you know, I will say to you just on a funny aside, anytime I say to myself, How could that happen? I end up in that situation. That's how it happens. Yeah, yep, oh, that's why, exactly, you know that that really brings up the point. Like, with to go back to the tips thing that you had asked, like, I think, just being specific with your children and saying, like, do you want me to give you suggestions? Yes? Gives them a feeling of empowerment, because then they can say yes or no, right? Like, then they're like, no, actually, I don't want your suggestions. Like, okay, then I have to, you know, shut up and walk away. And so that just it's such a slight change, but it really changes the dynamic and the feeling for your child around their ability to kind of control where things go, right?

Casey O'Roarty 24:52
And I think something that's super key there is asking, but asking from a really neutral place, right, which can feel really. Vulnerable, because there's a 5050, chance or more if you have a teenager that they'll say, Nope, and you we get to be, you know, humble enough to say, okay, great. Well, I'm available if and when you want to talk,

Alana Carvalho 25:14
you know, and that's the thing. I mean, all of this stuff is so difficult for us as parents, right? Like,

Casey O'Roarty 25:19
right? Ego is real? Yeah,

Alana Carvalho 25:21
absolutely, you know, and particularly if we came from parents who either very much told us what to do and how to be or were perhaps neglectful, like either extreme can can make us want to be really in our children's lives in a way that is, you know, negative for them at the end of the day. Unfortunately, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 25:43
yeah. Will you help out those parents that are listening who are going through that period of time? Not everybody goes through this, but I see it a lot in my community. It's usually around like the 1415, years, where the teens are just so closed off, and can start to become really resistant to relationship and engaging with the family, plus context of pandemic. I mean, there's, you know, no blame to throw around here. It just kind of and brain development. I mean, there's all the things right, and it's really tough to live with it as the parent who just wants to be engaged with their teens. What are some ways that we can be with our kids that work and I mean, work like, not like that, make them kids that are totally engaged, but like, how? What are some ideas that you offer your clients around how to be in relationship with someone who lives under the same roof but doesn't seem to really want to be near you. Million dollar question. There you go. Alana,

Alana Carvalho 26:53
oh, my god, it's so tough. There's so much going on. Um, you know, I would say, first of all, don't personalize it. Thank you. Your your kids still love you. So you know, even if it feels like they hate you, or maybe they've even told you they you know they don't actually, they actually love you and they want to be connected to you. But there's different developmental times where they need to separate. And if you can put your own feelings aside, you do have a better chance of connecting with your child, because they won't feel like, here's where, here's where codependency comes back in again. When our child feels like they need to take care of our feelings, they're likely to, they're more likely to reject us or do it, but in a way where they're actually resenting us or like sacrificing a part of themselves. So, you know, I would actually rather that your child is not speaking to you and trying to find space and figure themselves out. Then they are, you know, doing what you want because they're trying to take care of your feelings rather than acknowledging what they want. And I know that that sounds it's tough, you know, but you have to just let them move through it, you you have to put it this is again. You have to put aside your own feelings and and not ignore them like again, go to your supports, cry it out, do what you need to do, to feel it and then come back together and continue to just love your child in the way that they want to be loved, not necessarily in the way that you want to love them. Do

Casey O'Roarty 28:30
you think it's okay to offer you know, tenderly, short and sweet? You know, I see you, I love you, and just know that I'm here for whatever you need. And then kind of turn and burn, like, can we just drop those in here and there,

Alana Carvalho 28:47
absolutely, as long as it's not too often,

Casey O'Roarty 28:50
okay, okay, daily,

Alana Carvalho 28:52
not daily. Okay,

Casey O'Roarty 28:55
okay, good. That's good to know. That's good not

Alana Carvalho 28:57
and I miss you in there, which kind of can sound, which has an agenda to me, yeah? Yeah. Like our kids feel that from us. It's like, oh God, you know, get off of me. Like, that's really what they're feeling. So that's why I said, you know, not the daily thing, because it's just, it's too much, yeah, you know, every, every, I'll give you a couple of days that you could do it, or once a week, maybe. But then it's like, put it aside, because then it really is more about you than it is about your kid.

Casey O'Roarty 29:34
Well, and as we're talking about this, I'm also thinking like, the more we if they're having a hard time or navigating something, and we're like, right there, like, I love you. I'm here for you. I'm available. Like, there's an urgency and a frantic energy that comes along with this, and I wonder too, if that also translates to Whoa, my parent can't deal. Maybe I can't deal. I must not be okay. Okay, yeah, yeah.

Alana Carvalho 30:01
I think it sends a message to our child exactly what you're saying, like you're not okay, you can't handle this on your own, like you need me. You know, all of the stuff that we actually don't. We don't want our kids to think we've if you can learn to become more at peace with it and have more confidence in your children's ability to move through things, that they will feel also more able to do that. Yeah, and you know, it's, of course, again, it's like, it's not that simple. This is really difficult stuff. But that's where the support comes in, where you can, like, let it out, and then you come back and you're like, okay, they got this. And I have to keep reminding myself, like they got this, they can do it. Yeah, I believe in them, you know, and reminding ourselves about that so that we can keep bringing that energy into it, rather than the fearful, oh, my God, what's going to happen, right?

Casey O'Roarty 30:53
Right? Juan, I've been really trying to, like, capture that sentiment, you know, mostly because people come and find me when they're in the muck right with their teens. So those are my people, and I've been there so they know that I'm familiar with the muck. And, you know, having kind of come to an another side of really, a few really hard years, and looking back and realizing all of the gifts that came out of the struggle and the learning and the growth for for the whole family, you know, and trying to hold a space of you know this, and it's very coachy right to say like this is happening for you, and I don't want to minimize how Hard Things are, but to support parents in recognizing like adversity comes in so many ways. And you know, there is so much to grow and develop into through the journey of adversity. And while none of us want our kids to suffer, some suffering is so powerful in their character development, right, right? And what I'm hearing use and like, what I'm hearing you say really aligns with with what I'm trying and I can't quite find the right words to use, but just this, like the way that we are in response to our teens ebbs and flows and high peaks and deep valleys, matters so much to how our teens actually navigate those peaks and valleys. Absolutely,

Alana Carvalho 32:31
they're looking to us like we're their guide. You know, they want to know that they're safe and they're going to be okay. And I think you know, although we can't fully guarantee that we can show them what it looks like to move through something and and be, you know, okay, enough, you know, doesn't mean they have to be great. Doesn't mean we have to be great. But if we can try to be stable enough for them, they'll feel it,

Casey O'Roarty 33:00
yeah, and we increase the likelihood that it's an optimal outcome. Basically, yeah, that's a hard one, right? Like, there's no guarantee. Everyone, no spoiler alert, you know, at the end of the day, you know, all we can do is increase the likelihood that our kids grow into well balanced, mentally stable, contributing members of society. But, you know, there's no guarantee, so how we respond is where our influence lies, and then being in one of the things that I talk a lot about is the relationship. And I mean, that's all caught up in codependency. Is all about relationship gone wrong, right? I mean, that's right, right? Yes, no

Alana Carvalho 33:44
good way to say it

Casey O'Roarty 33:47
So, but, well, I don't know if I need to ask this question. So I want to drive this home for people, because I think that for a variety of reasons, we want to fix the problems that are showing up. And can you talk a little bit about and we've kind of covered it, but maybe you could say it in a different way, because I think it's such an important concept to land for people, what actually happens for our teens when they get to ride through their challenges knowing that their parent is going to support them no matter what meaning if they're chipper and engaged or not right.

Alana Carvalho 34:31
I think that your kids are going through a period where they're really developing their sense of self, right, and when they can move through that and feel your support without enmeshment, feel your support and your empathy and understanding and validation, there's a sense of confidence. There's a sense of trust in oneself that develops that is really important and key. Our children, as they move into adulthood, we want them to feel like you got this. You can do it. You know life will be difficult at times, and you can weather the storm. And when they have that like strong foundation, right? Like that is what will help them when these difficulties inevitably arise down the road in life, not necessarily have to, you know, completely crumble, or, you know, feel like they can't cope because they've never learned how to cope. Or, you know, we want to, we want to provide those skills. We want to help them be resilient throughout the rest of their life, and that's really the key here, you know, because as a therapist, I work with a lot of young adults, and a lot of them don't have that stable foundation, and so they really don't have they don't have strong sense of self, they don't feel confident, and so they're struggling, right? Like they're struggling to figure out, who am I and can I move through life's difficulties? Okay? And I think, you know, it becomes so much harder as an adult to develop those skills than if you develop them earlier in life. Yeah, it becomes more of like you're talking about parents that reach out in crisis. It's like, you don't you wish they reached out proactively, right? And like, you know? It's like, Oh, my God, how different things would be. And, yeah, if we could only all do that, life would be amazing. But truly, the earlier and the harder that you work on this, the more likely your child has a chance of growing into what you're talking about, that that contributing member of society who feels good about themselves and feels good about life,

Casey O'Roarty 36:48
yeah, well, and I love just thinking about the teen years as you know, it's the training ground. It's where they get to flex. We have to give them the opportunity to be in a space of sovereignty. If we want them to develop into sovereign people, right, we have to give them the opportunity to flex and grow their resiliency muscles. If we want them to be resilient adults,

Alana Carvalho 37:10
absolutely. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 37:15
So good. So much work, though, so much work, so much personal growth and development. I always laugh about that on this podcast. It's like surprise, you get to grow as a human through parenting your children,

Alana Carvalho 37:31
oh my god, on a daily basis, right? Yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 37:33
Is there anything else you want to make sure to share with listeners before we wrap up? Alana, I just

Alana Carvalho 37:38
want to acknowledge anyone who's listening, because the fact that you're listening to this means that you know you care enough to be a good, good enough parent. I talk about the good enough parent in my book, and you know that that I acknowledge you for. I always, I think the parents who come into therapy or come into any support group looking for help. I'm just like, Oh, wonderful. Good for you, because that shows that that you're willing to do some of the difficult work, and that will show in how you parent. Yes,

Casey O'Roarty 38:10
what does joyful courage mean to you?

Alana Carvalho 38:14
I love that. I love this phrase that you have. You know, for me, it's exactly what we're talking about. It's, it's pushing yourself to grow in these uncomfortable ways, and doing it knowing that that's kind of what brings joy into life. Actually bring what's, it's what will bring joy into your relationships with your children and others, of course, by pushing out of your comfort zone and taking a look at

Casey O'Roarty 38:41
yourself. I love that. Tell us again where we can find you and follow your work. So

Alana Carvalho 38:47
you can follow me on Instagram. I'm the codependent perfectionist, as Casey mentioned. You can also find my book on Amazon, raising empowered children, the codependent perfectionist guide to parenting. And finally, you can find me on my website, which is you can either just type in the codependent, perfectionist.com or alanacarvallo.com

Casey O'Roarty 39:08
Perfect. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was really awesome.

Alana Carvalho 39:13
Thanks, Casey. It was great to speak with you.

Casey O'Roarty 39:22
Okay, thanks again for listening. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, will you please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcast and leave a review. We're working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps joyful courage to be seen by ever more parents seen and listened to notes for today's show. Can be found on my website. Joyful courage.com/podcast/two 95 big thanks to my amazing daughter, Rowan, for getting those notes and links together for all of you, and huge gratitude to my podcast editor, Chris man. And from pod shaper for everything he does to keep the show sounding so amazing for your ears, that's it for me this week, I encourage you all to practice finding your Beth, following it into your body, taking the balcony seat and trusting that everything's gonna be okay. Love you.

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