Eps 276: Understanding Gender Expression with Rae McDaniels

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Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Hey friends, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I am perfectly raised my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit, growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, and I encourage you to listen to how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. Super grateful that what I put out matters to you, and so excited to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being a part of the community. Enjoy the show.

Welcome back, listeners. I am so excited to introduce you to today's guest Ray. McDaniel Ray is a non binary gender and sex therapist turned coach who works with transgender non binary questioning folks feeling lost while transitioning their gender identity. They are the creator of genderfuck the club, a one of a kind, research based online group coaching community of transgender, non binary questioning folks who are on a mission to transition with less suffering and more ease. Ooh, I really like that. Mission to transition. Ray is founder of practical audacity, a gender and sex therapy practice in Chicago. They also provide training for medical and mental health professionals wishing to up level their knowledge in trans affirming care. Ray holds a master's of education in community counseling. Hi, Ray, welcome to the podcast.

Rae McDaniel 2:09
Hi. Thanks for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:11
Yeah, can we start with your story of doing what you do? Yeah,

Rae McDaniel 2:17
absolutely. So it is a long and windy story. So I'll try to give you the too long don't read version. The short version is that I grew up in a very, very conservative evangelical household in rural Louisiana. My parents were actually missionary puppeteers, which is as strange as it sounds.

Casey O'Roarty 2:39
That was their legitimate title. Yeah, they

Rae McDaniel 2:43
just retired this year, actually. So they were, they were doing that. I was traveling with them all through my teenage years. Went to college at a small, little liberal arts university in Texas, and began to expand my wings a little bit and kind of come out of that very conservative evangelical life. By the time I was out of undergrad, I had decided that I wanted to be a therapist and that I wanted to work specifically with the LGBTQ community. So I came up to Chicago for grad school and kind of immediately flung open the closet as soon as I got out of the south and came out as queer, came out to my parents as queer, which did not go well, still does not go well. And over time, and that was about 10 years ago, so over time, I also started to realize that something was going on with my gender, and so I started exploring it, and came out as non binary a few years ago, and have slowly transitioned my name and pronouns to re and they them. I also started testosterone in the past couple of years and just had top surgery a couple months ago. Actually,

Casey O'Roarty 4:07
I have so many questions, um, what does for let's just start with, what does non binary mean? What does it mean to you? That's

Rae McDaniel 4:14
a great question. So in order to explain explain non binary, I'm gonna back up a little bit and talk about the gender spectrum and the gender binary a little bit more broadly, awesome. So when we're talking about the gender binary, we're talking about what you think of, which is you pop out of the womb and the doctor says it's a boy or it's a girl. And most of us kind of stop there. You know, we, a lot of people, the doctor says it's a girl, they grow up and that kid says, Yep, that seems right. And that's kind of the end of that. If someone pops out of the womb, the doctor says it's a girl, and that person grows up and says, You know what? That really doesn't feel like it fits. I really, I. Feel like I identify as a man, then that person is transgender. Trans is just a Latin term that means, on the other side of means that they are a transgender man. What non binary means is that when I pop out of the womb, the doctor said it's a girl, and I grew up, and I really like the metaphor of a shoe that feels like it's a size or so too small, and that you can walk around in it, and it feels kind of fine for a while, but then it starts to cause some blisters. You realize it really is too small, and the assignment of female, of woman didn't really feel like it fully encompassed all of who I was. But I don't identify as a man, and so I identify as non binary, which is solidly in the middle of that gender binary that people assume. And also I'd like to point out, so the gender binary is based on an assumption that biological sex is binary, but really what we know from science now is that the number of people who they pop out of the womb and the doctor says, well, this person is intersex, meaning they don't fully fit the checkbox of male or female based on appearance of their bodies, their chromosomal system, or their endocrine system or their hormones, is roughly the amount of people in the world who are redheads, which put another way, is twice the population of Canada. Oh my gosh, yeah. So this entire assumption of a gender system based on a biological binary sex is flawed at its core. And the more we learn about bodies, the more science expands, the more we realize that biology is incredibly diverse, and yet, we've really boxed people into these two boxes from the moment they're born.

Casey O'Roarty 7:07
You know, I was talking to my kids. I have a 15 year old and an 18 year old, and I was talking to them about having you on the show, and how excited I was to have this conversation, and just reflecting on how, you know, they're Gen Z, and how it and I have work with a lot of parents who have teenagers and and just the I mean, and it could be geographical, because we live in a very liberal pocket of the world up here in Bellingham, Washington. And while it's not racially diverse up here. It is very LGBTQ friendly up here, and and, you know, embracing and just, it's a wonderful part of our community. And I was talking to them, and I was saying, Gosh, you know, so I'm I'm old, I'm a Gen Xer, but I see, you know, the younger parents making decisions and declarations around being gender neutral with, you know, from the womb. And I am so, like my kids and I were just talking about that and, and I was just like, God, I just so that is so fascinating to me, and so I'm imagining and like, it's so hard for me to rip my head out of what I know, right? And just, of course, being like, we're raised, being called, hey little boy, Hey little girl. And to take that away, well, what, on one hand, how freeing and what an exciting experiment to see, you know, and what I'm hearing you say, basically, is the vast majority of kids, even raised, you know, raised in that kind of environment, are going to identify with the biological sex that they came out with, according to science and then, but then there's all of these other kids the population of Canada, who get to say, This is who I am, and not have it be this big, like, surprise, you know, but instead just kind of that excitement around, I can imagine it being this excitement around like, I wonder what it's going to be for them, you know, and what a different experience for people to have, you know, especially people that are finding themselves in that identity that just is starting to give them blisters.

Rae McDaniel 9:27
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much in what you just said, and you're right, that the vast majority of kids are going to identify with what the doctor assigned them at birth. We know that, and for the kids that don't, it's a really big deal to have the freedom to explore their identity and explore how they want to express their gender, and to have that celebrated. By not only parents, but society as a whole. You're right that it's incredibly freeing. And I think what we're talking about is not throwing out gender, right? We're not trying to create a genderless society. Sure. We're just saying, You know what? Gender doesn't have to be so serious that a lot of the assumptions that we have about you pop out of the womb, and then that is the gender that you identify with for the rest of your life. That's just isn't everybody's story. But the fact that it isn't everybody's story doesn't have to be so fraught as it is today, and I hope that we're moving in a direction where gender expansion and gender exploration is celebrated, just like any other type of personal growth, of self actualization, of Becoming a more authentic version of who you are well, and

Speaker 1 11:01
I love having these conversations on on my show, because in my population of listeners, I know that there are parents listening to you, you know, just hanging on to every word because they are in the experience of raising a child who has, you know, recently, or maybe not so recently, come out as trans or as, you know, as anything that isn't the narrative that we were holding in our mind, but today it's around being trans and non binary. And I love that we get to offer them something where they feel seen. And I also really appreciate everybody else that's listening, who, maybe you know their kids are cisgender, straight kids who, who just want to understand better. I think it's so important for all of us to understand better the experiences that are happening inside of our communities. I just feel like we're a better village for each other when we learn more about other people's experiences. So I'm just really grateful to have you on and to be talking about all of this. And I also want to say, Please catch me. I'm blind to my blindness, and there may be moments where I get messy or get it wrong. And I just really want to invite you Ray to support me as well in my learning and my growing as we continue to talk today.

Rae McDaniel 12:27
Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to be here and be having this conversation. I think it's incredibly important. And how would you know what you don't know? We know that language evolves and changes so quickly, especially in this community, so it it takes a bit to catch up with it, and it's totally okay to make those mistakes. One of the things that struck me and what you were saying is, yes, this does make us a better village for trans and non binary identified kids, teens, parents, and also for anybody that identifies as cisgender, which is just you are not transgender. So CIS is it's a Latin prefix. It means on the same side of it just means that you identify with whatever the doctor assigned you at birth. So even for cisgender folks, expanding gender and exploring what gender means to them, how they want to express that that benefits everybody, because the gender boxes that we've been put in also come with all these societal expectations about what, quote, unquote, little boys or little girls are supposed to look like, be like, be into. This is why we don't have more women in STEM This is why we have pay gaps. This is why a lot of cisgender men have trouble expressing their emotions, because we've all been put in boxes that don't serve us.

Casey O'Roarty 14:15
Well, let's go back to the language because, specifically, because I know one thing that gets people curious is the pronouns. Typically I'll change right now it says joyful courage on my zoom, and typically I change that to Casey, she her, and I had somebody reach out to me on Instagram and with just, just curious like, what's the deal with your like? Why? Why would you put your pronouns out there? And to me, the reason that I do it is is really just kind of a form of solidarity and a way to say, hey, let's not make assumptions. And here I'll help you not make an assumption about me. Talk to me a little bit about pronouns, because I do know that well. How do I say this? Crazy? Boy. So you know, teenagers, there's so much expression and identity forming and identity trying on and exploration happening. And I think that, and you'll have to tell me that playing with pronoun, and I don't want to belittle the experience of a trans or a non binary identifying person by saying this, but I wonder sometimes, too, if this isn't just a really powerful way for our kids to be just experimenting with expression. And I know that there's a lot of parents that wonder about that. Sometimes it's like, well, is this, you know, are they just, well, I hate, I hate. It doesn't matter what kids are doing when the response is they're just looking for attention. It rubs me wrong, because I don't think that's what is happening. I think there's always a longing for belonging and connection. Attention is like the cheap version of that. So what are you seeing inside, and what are the conversations in the communities that you hold just around gender and the pronouns in particular, as a form of like trying on, playing with and maybe, that's maybe I'm answering my own question, because it seems like Gen Z is super fluid, and it's just who they are, and it's so beautiful. And you know, those of us that are in their late 40s and older might just be like, I don't totally understand. I'm not a there's no, like, animosity or negativity. I'm just really curious and just wondering about that. God. I did not need to use so many words, but

Rae McDaniel 16:47
that's okay. That's okay. It's it's a hard thing to express. I think when you're nervous that a question or a comment might rub somebody the wrong way or invalidate somebody's experience, and I think that is really normal. So pronouns, that's a big conversation. The first thing that I'll say as an aside is that there are much, much easier ways to get attention than by joining a marginalized and discriminated against like a population. Much easier ways to do that. And you know I when I will also say I don't personally work with anybody in my professional life under the age of 18. Okay? So I am not a parenting expert or an expert on children and teens who are coming out as non binary. Okay, what I can say is that in my experience working with many, many trans and non binary folks over my entire career, is that I've I've never had somebody who stepped into my office who made it all the way there that says I think that I might be trans or non binary, who didn't end up identifying somewhere on that spectrum, right? Not to say that that doesn't happen and that people might not experiment with, you know, exploring their gender and seeing if something feels like it fits like that is a natural thing to do, but I would say in the majority of cases, people aren't going to be experimenting with something as big as gender if there's not something inside of them that's pulling them that direction. And there's much easier and better ways to be cool. So I don't think that is is happening as much as maybe some people think that it is. So pronouns, let's get into that. Yeah, people have a really, really hard time with pronouns, and I think especially shifting pronouns when they've been used to calling somebody by one particular set of pronouns. If you called your your kid she for their entire life, shifting to he, it might take some practice. It might be unfamiliar to your mouth. It might be unfamiliar to your brain, and you have to build some new neural pathways for that to come really naturally and easily. Same thing with they them pronouns. No people seem to have a really hard time with they them pronouns when people have been using they them as a gender neutral singular pronoun since the days of Shakespeare, that Shakespeare used they, them as a gender neutral pronoun. Oh, really. And yeah, and we often do it without even thinking about it in our day to day life, for example, it's very common to hear somebody say, you know, I ran into Sally at the grocery store and they said that they. We're having a barbecue this weekend. Yeah, that doesn't sound strange to us, but for some reason, using they them, when we have to think about it, feels hard. And I think it feels hard just because it's unfamiliar. It's the best word that we have in the English language, that we already have that is a good, gender neutral singular pronoun. There are other pronouns, like, for example, Z or here, that are used a little bit less commonly, that are that but that some people really identify with. So you should be aware of that piece as well. But most of the time, if people are wanting to use a gender neutral pronoun in the English language, it's gonna be they. It just just takes some practice.

Casey O'Roarty 20:53
So sometimes I see she, they pronouns. Can you talk about that a little bit when one of the pronouns is the gender neutral, but the other one is not. What's up with that? Help me?

Rae McDaniel 21:05
Yeah, I was actually in that space a few years ago, so I can speak to that personally. Where I was, when I was asking for she and they, is saying that, hey, the she pronoun doesn't feel bad to me at this point, and the they pronoun feels really good for me. So if people can use both and kind of shift between them a little bit more fluidly, that it felt really affirming to me. It felt like the part of my identity that was non binary was being seen, even though I wasn't having, at that point, a really huge reaction to she her pronouns either. Now that has shifted for me, they, them are the pronouns that feel the most affirming and really good for me. And a lot of people feel like there's a variety of pronouns that feel really good and affirming to them, and that are parts of different parts of their personality, and they might want people to use them a little bit more fluidly.

Casey O'Roarty 22:13
I just love that we are moving in a direction of human beings being able to be who they are, and making a declaration about it. Yeah, it just makes me so happy,

Rae McDaniel 22:25
and that's really all it is. You know, I have one theory at least, about why folks are really kind of caught up on the gender conversation and the pronoun conversation is because the sex that we were assigned at birth, it happens first thing. It's like one of the first things that happened when we were born. And most people who are cisgender foreclose on that identity around the age of two or three. And it's a fact of the world, this binary system of what you were assigned at birth and gender, and so shaking that up and saying, You know what, not only is biology more expansive than we thought, but also gender, and exploring gender and how We express that is diverse and expansive, it shakes people's fundamental views of what the world is like. You know, we saw this when scientists started saying, Hey, I think the world is round instead of flat. Or scientists saying, Did you know that the world is made up of tiny, microscopic particles called atoms, and we're all made up of those things. People were killed for saying that. They were thrown in jail. They were excommunicated because it shook people's fundamental ideas about the world. And I think this conversation is doing the same thing?

Casey O'Roarty 24:01
Yeah, I think that's probably one of the first things that we as a parent, that we attach to, you know, it's the first bit of information that we're given externally from the doctor. And it's like, okay, great, I can count on this thing, right? And then there's a whole host of other things that we attach to, that we get to bump up against, no matter if it's the gender conversation or not, but I think you know, there and we become attached. I was working with a couple recently whose child came out as trans and just and I could feel just that desire to want to support and want to be there, while also the discomfort of the shakeup. Yeah, and, and it's really real. So when you What do you hear from people in that you serve about their coming out experience, and, and I want to lead us kind of into a conversation about. How parents can do better as parents who have kids that are that are coming out as trans and non binary,

Rae McDaniel 25:09
I think people's coming out experiences are really, really varied. There isn't one coming out story. I'm hearing more good stories, which is really encouraging, and there's still a lot of rejection and a lot of hardship related to coming out, in particular with families of origin. We also know from research that support from families of origin literally saves lives. It's a huge mitigator of distress, of gender dysphoria, of all the things that go into Surviving and Thriving as a trans and non binary person.

Casey O'Roarty 25:52
So tell me what gender dysphoria is. Please. Sure.

Rae McDaniel 25:56
Yes, gender dysphoria is the a very visceral felt sense that there is something off about your body, so your body isn't the way that it, quote, unquote should be. Something doesn't feel right. So for example, I'll use myself. I didn't have very intense gender dysphoria and body dysphoria growing up, or even as a person who identified as non binary, and I never really felt attached to my breast, my chest. It wasn't something that felt like a really big part of my identity, but it wasn't distressing enough that I immediately got surgery for it and got top surgery. But over time, I started realizing that I felt that my body would reflect who I am better if I did not have large breast or a chest that if I had a flatter profile, that would feel a lot more congruent for me. And so that's what we're talking about when we're talking about gender dysphoria. And body dysphoria related to gender is there's just something that feels incongruent between your identity, who you know yourself to be, and the body that you have, and how society views that body.

Casey O'Roarty 27:32
Got it, but there's body dysmorphia, which is a different thing. What is body dysmorphia? Help me is that when you're just looking in the mirror and you see something different than the actual reality of your body?

Rae McDaniel 27:45
I would say yes, I'm also not an expert in body dysmorphia. In particular, that is often a term that we hear with a lot of eating disorder specialists, so I would probably turn to them for really good definition of that. But yes, your your definition is my understanding as well.

Casey O'Roarty 28:06
So what I'm hearing you say, Ray and in your experience, well, first of all, I really appreciate that there isn't, you know, this gets to be a place where there's no perfect answer, which is awesome, and we all really like a neat, tidy box with a bow, and it's all like, okay, I get it, so I'm acknowledging that as well. But I what I'm hearing you say too, is which is not something that I really considered, is that it's, you know, it's different for everyone when they when that identity starts to feel like a non fit?

Rae McDaniel 28:48
Yeah, yes. Some people know that from very, very early on, like 345, years old, they know that something isn't right, something doesn't feel congruent. Other people like me, it's much slower, and a lot of times it happens in adulthood, and that's for lots of reasons, I think, a natural moving into being more authentic and a lot of self growth and realizing things about ourselves, and also being in a society where a cisgender identity is accepted as the default, and maybe it doesn't even feel like there is an option or there is language for how somebody feels growing up, or permission. You know, in my case, it would not have been in any way safe for me to come out as queer or trans or non binary when I was growing up, it would have been a non starter, and so it wasn't even something that crossed my mind.

Casey O'Roarty 29:53
There's I just want to tell listeners, there's a really great podcast that I have listened to call and. You've heard it, I don't know called How to be a girl.

Rae McDaniel 30:04
I haven't heard of that one. It's a it's a mom

Casey O'Roarty 30:06
out of Seattle whose trans daughter declared, I think it was at three or four years old, I am a girl, and she shares her journey. I think the daughter is now in seventh or eighth grade, and the mom has been really generous with sharing the experience that she's had, being an advocate, and the experience of coming to understand what it meant and how to be who her daughter needed her to be.

Rae McDaniel 30:39
That's amazing. What a great resource. I

Casey O'Roarty 30:42
just wanted to share that with everyone, because it's it's just a fascinating story. I had a guest on last year, and we talked about her experience of having a trans son, and there was a really emotional moment during the show when we talked about, you know, the fears that parents have for their child's safety, because we know the statistics. So I'm curious. I would love to hear from you and your you know your background of experience, as well as your professional therapy background. What tips do you have for parents to be with that reality and that fear while not letting it take over and still being able to just really be in support and acceptance of their child?

Rae McDaniel 31:37
What a great question, and one of those questions that doesn't have a quick and easy answer to it. So first, I will say it's not an unreasonable fear. We know that there is a lot of violence that is directed towards trans and non binary people, especially transgender women of color and especially black transgender women, so that it is a real thing, and I want to validate that. That said, I think my question is, how do we be with any fear without it taking over? Now, I'm not a parent, but I do have people that I love, and I have to sit in the fear that anything could happen to them at any time. I don't have control over that at all, and that is a terrifying thing. And what you're talking about right now in terms of how do we sit with the fear of having a transgender child and what might happen to them in the world. Fundamentally, it's really no different than sitting with the fear that anything might happen to your child or someone else that you love, is that you can acknowledge it and feel that feeling, but living in that feeling is going to take you away from the present moment, and that really doesn't serve anybody, because most of the things that people are going to be afraid of, right, random acts of violence towards trans people, they're completely out of your control. The other side of the coin is though, that there are things that are in your control, things that you can help advocate for, for a child and or, you know, a teenager, even a college student, around safety at school, collaborating with the people that are working to keep them safe there around helping your kid be able to accurately assess for safety wherever they are, and be able to know when a situation feels unsafe and how to get out of that. You know, there are some really common sense ways that we can talk about safety with our kids, that we could acknowledge the you know, where we are now as a society, and the fact that there is violence against transgender people, while not just staying in that fear feeling and just doing what we can to control the things that we do have some amount of agency over

Casey O'Roarty 34:24
that's great. And like you said, that that's great for all of us, because it's you're right. I mean, there's just our kids becoming teenagers is terrifying enough. I can imagine we have plenty of things to work on. Oh, yeah, so thank you for that.

Speaker 1 34:52
When you think about the best things that parents can do when their child comes out. As trans or non binary, identifying like what comes to mind? What do you wish the world looked like for kids that were coming out today?

Rae McDaniel 35:10
At the core, I wish that the world celebrated gender expansiveness, that it celebrated gender transition folks identifying as trans folks identifying as non binary. And I wish that for any kid who is coming out as non binary with their parents. And there are some really basic things that make a huge, huge difference. So number one, respecting name and pronouns, that little simple act, right, not always easy, but a simple thing goes so so far in helping people feel affirmed. I mean, I think you can probably imagine if someone knew your name and your pronouns, and then intentionally, or even unintentionally, kept using a different name and a different pronoun, that probably wouldn't feel very good. So it's the same thing here is just respecting whatever a person says their name and pronouns are. So that basic number one, I think celebrating gender expression and people exploring that is a big one, and not expecting kids or teens to foreclose on an identity or decide one way that they want to express their gender at that age and never allowing them to change it. You know, I think there's a lot of assumptions about, you know, if my my child, is expressing their gender in this particular way now it means that they will do this exactly this way forever, until they die. And we know that identity development doesn't work like that, and we know that teenage identity development doesn't work like that. There's a lot of experimenting and there's a lot of exploring to find what fits that said taking it seriously when a child says, Hey, this is my identity, this is my name, these are my pronouns. I think we can assume that that is true, even if that shifts and changes over their life. I think we all shift and change in our identities that doesn't make a previous expression of ourself invalid or untruthful.

Casey O'Roarty 37:46
I love that. I love that it's just feels so respectful. And I've been writing a lot about raising teens, and you know how quick we are to roll our eyes or, you know, lament on how irrational and, oh, it's just a phase, or it's, you know, you're just a moody teen and like that. It's just, it's such a disrespectful way of holding space for another human. And so I'm really hearing that theme and what you're saying right now as well. It's that the exploration, the identity, the trying on. You know, there's so much room to delight in, in our in where our kids are at right now in their life journey, rather than put them down or anyway, I love that. I

Rae McDaniel 38:41
love how you put that, and I love that you brought in the word delight, that it's a favorite word of mine, and I think you nailed it. We don't have to be so so serious about gender. It can be a place of play. It can be a place of delight and a natural and normal part of self growth. It doesn't have to be this cultural crisis that I think we've made it to be

Speaker 1 39:13
yes. I love that Yes. Are there any good resources for parents or for people that give some insight or knowledge, like, Are there any favorite memoirs or I mean, I love to learn about other people's experiences by reading a good memoir or reading a good book or listening to a good podcast. Does anything come to mind for you that parents could consider checking out that'll help them just expand in their understanding of their child's experience.

Rae McDaniel 39:47
Absolutely. So there's a few things that come to mind. You mentioned memoir. So one of my favorite, most recent memoirs is one by Jacob Tobia, called sissy the. That one is great. It's from the point of view of a non binary person who is very much believes the same things that I do around gender being a place of play. So I highly recommend that one. There is also a fiction book that is wonderful called Juliet. Takes a Breath. That's about a transgender, non binary teen in New York. So that's a great one. I also generally recommend P flag, which is one that most people know about, but it's a really great resource. It's a great way to make local connections things that we're familiar with, like the Trevor Project has not only information, but a lot of stories of people, and I think stories are powerful, like you're saying. So I love that local LGBTQ centers will have resources often, or connections to different groups that people can join there. There are a few books that I also like to recommend. So there's, there's two books called the transgender child and then the transgender teen. Those two are really great. I highly recommend them. There's also some workbooks that you can Google. There's several, if you just kind of look up transgender teen workbook or something along those lines, that will pop up. One quick and easy way to kind of get a very broad but good overview of gender. Is something called the gender unicorn. So if you just Google that, you'll see lots and lots of things about it, but it's a nice little graphic that really breaks down what I was talking about, right? The assigned sex at birth, gender, gender expression, how all those things work together. So that's a great one. If folks are curious about they them pronouns. There's a little booklet called a, I believe it's called, a quick and easy guide to they them pronouns, which is also fantastic, cool. I think those are my most pointed to resources. If someone does have a trans child and they're looking for specific medical resources. The Lurie Children's Hospital gender clinic is fantastic. And even if you're not in Chicago, I imagine that they will have resources that are more local as well. Yeah, for

Casey O'Roarty 42:34
sure. I mean, our biggest city is Seattle, and I know that the Children's Hospital in Seattle has a gender clinic as well.

Rae McDaniel 42:40
Fantastic.

Speaker 1 42:43
Yay. Well, as we wrap up, what is, you know, is there anything that we didn't cover or that you want to make sure to bring to the audience before we we're done with this conversation,

Rae McDaniel 42:58
I think the thing that I want people to most take away from this conversation is that the world needs people who are their most authentic, lit up selves, because when folks are living out the most authentic version of themselves, they show up in the world in a different way. They're able to make a difference in their own unique way, and celebrating gender expansion, exploration and gender transition is a big piece of that puzzle. No transition isn't the point. The point is that people are out there living their lives as the best version of themselves, and celebrating gender transition helps them do that.

Casey O'Roarty 43:46
Well, I think you just answered the next question that I have that I always end my podcast with, which is, what does joyful courage mean to you? Ray, I'm thinking full expression, right? Yeah, yes,

Rae McDaniel 43:59
absolutely, yeah, full expression. You know, I also think of the words pleasure and Audacity when I think of joyful courage. You know, it's not about not being afraid. It's, you know, to use Brene Brown language, stepping into the arena even though we're afraid. Yeah, yeah. So to me, joyful courage means stepping into the arena, whatever that means to you, in the fullest expression of yourself, and doing so in a way that also focuses on joy and pleasure and life not being a drudge through the mud.

Casey O'Roarty 44:38
Beautiful. I'm down for that.

Rae McDaniel 44:41
Me too.

Casey O'Roarty 44:44
Where can listeners find you and follow your work?

Rae McDaniel 44:46
They can find me at practical audacity on all the social media. So Instagram, Facebook, at practical audacity will get you there also, www.practicalaudacity.com and. And www dot genderfuck with no you because we're polite. Dot club, so that's genderfuck. Dot club with no you.

Speaker 1 45:08
Okay, great. And listeners, I'll make sure that those links, as well as links to the other resources that were mentioned during the show, I'll make sure that all of those are in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with me today, Ray, it was lovely.

Rae McDaniel 45:23
Thank you so much for having me

Casey O'Roarty 45:32
okay. Thanks again for listening. I am so so grateful that you have made it through another amazing, amazing, amazing interview. What a guest right? If you feel inspired and you haven't already, do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and leave a review. Always, we're working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. You can help with that by creating a review, and the podcast will be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also, if you aren't following me on Instagram, you can find me at joyful underscore courage. I also have a Facebook business page, as well as two Facebook groups. Live in love with joyful courage, which is for parents of school aged kids and joyful courage for parents of teens, a very special spot on Facebook for parents who are working through the teen years. Don't forget to sign up for the parenting for the season you're in. Course. We start next Thursday, June 3. Space is limited. We want you there. Check it out at joyful courage.com/seasons so appreciate you love you have a beautiful week. Breathe, breathe, breathe, breathe. You're going to be okay.

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