Eps 274: Raising Thrivers with Dr. Michele Borba

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Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Music. Hello, friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey awardee, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, and I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. I am grateful that what I put out in the world matters to you, and I am so stoked to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. And if you're new here, this is your first joyful courage podcast. Welcome. We are so excited that you are here joining us enjoy the show. You Oh,

hi, listeners, I am so excited to welcome you back to share my conversation with Dr Michelle Borba. Dr Borba is the author of unselfie, why empathetic kids succeed in our all about me world, and is an internationally renowned educational psychologist and an expert in parenting, bullying and character development. She is a regular NBC contributor who appears regularly on the Today Show, and has been a featured expert on Dateline, the view. Dr Phil NBC, Nightly News, Fox and Friends, Dr Oz and The Early Show, among many others. She lives in Palm Springs, California with her husband, and is the mother of three grown sons. Now you guys, Dr Borba and I, we go way back. We go back to 2016 when she was a guest on episode 36 on the podcast titled Dr Michelle Borba, and why empathy is the antidote to the selfie culture. I am thrilled to have her back to talk about her new book hot off the presses, titled thrivers, the surprising reasons why some kids struggle and others shine. Hi, Dr Borba, welcome back to the show.

Dr. Michele Borba 2:38
Oh, I'm so glad to be back. Thank you so much. It was so fun last time, and it's always a pleasure. Yay.

Casey O'Roarty 2:44
Well, I was laughing. We were laughing before I hit record. I have to just share this with my listeners. So, you know, I talked to my mom on the regular, and she said, case I saw this gal on the Dr Phil Show, and she was talking about parenting, and she's telling me about what she saw and that she was promoting this book, and she couldn't remember the name of the book, and I had just booked you. And I said, Oh, was it thrivers, by any chance? And my mom said, Yes, it was. How did you know? And I said, well, she's gonna be on my show mom, and I think that that made her feel pretty proud of her daughter. I've been sharing a guest with Dr Phil. So thank you for that.

Dr. Michele Borba 3:24
Thank you for that little antidote that was just too precious.

Casey O'Roarty 3:28
So will you start off by sharing a bit about why your new book, Why, what sparked your interest in writing about this topic,

Dr. Michele Borba 3:37
kids, teens. It was unbelievable. You know, I spend most of my time going around schools and talking to parents and teachers, and I started seeing a trend probably about three years ago that really concerned me, that one in five American teens were going to be diagnosed with some kind of a mental health disorder. Now it kept getting replicated and replicated by major, universities and big time organizations. So I decided to talk to the kids. And counselors are always so wonderful and giving you access to kids. So I talked to at least 500 in focus groups, and one on one of about 100 across the country, really diverse groups of kids, and every single teen said the same thing. My first question was, so, I understand you're the most stressed out generation known to man, oh yeah, we are. And then it was, So, what's causing it? And the thing that really bothered me was that more and more of the kids described themselves as empty, running on empty. In fact, I almost named the book not thrivers, but running on empty, but it just seemed too negative. But they all said, you know, I think the thing we need to do is have some coping skills. And one kid said, I think too often we're feeling like, feeling like we're being raised as products, and we're missing a stuff on how to be humans.

Casey O'Roarty 4:56
Oh, that's really powerful. Yeah, yeah. So it's. Interesting that that was kind of where you went and what you found and what sparked your interest, especially considering the timeline. And my listeners know that, you know, the last three years have been a mental health journey in our home with my oldest teenager. And I know that a lot of listeners have kids who are, you know, anxieties through the roof, depression is showing up. When do we get a counselor? Do we need? How do we get them to go to the counselor? How do we support our kids? I know my daughter's been on the podcast actually, because we're kind of on the other side of this, what felt like this whirlwind crisis few years and when she reflects on the difference between who she is now and who she was three years ago. Coping is the word, you know, she just feels like she has coping skills. And it's interesting, Michelle, because I feel like, but wait a minute, I thought I was doing what I was supposed to be doing, zero to 12. Like, you know, it's interesting. And I'm bringing this up because I know that there's parents listening thinking, like, have I failed them? You know, what have I done wrong? And so can you tease apart a little bit, like, what you see, you know, nature versus nurture, an external environment versus, you know, the home environment.

Dr. Michele Borba 6:18
Yeah, I think the first word is so we've got to address is that thing called guilt. It comes with parenting no matter what we do. Thank you. Erase it. We're all level on that one, I have the thing called three boys, and it's always guilt, but I think it's a different culture. When I kept going, what is going on? These kids feel so empty when they're so loved and by the way, they're so educated, and they're the smartest group we've ever had. But three things keep coming up, in terms of not just the kids, but what the research says, they're also not only the smartest, they're four point O's are now 7.3 is there the loneliest, saddest and most stressed, according to what the research says? So why? It is a culture that's changing? One of the things the kids say, and I agree with them, it's far more competitive. We're being pitted against each other. Many of the kids say the other thing that's really different, fascinating. Teens won't say it to us, but they say to me, we're really worried about our younger siblings. I said, Why? Because they're so addicted to stuff, they look down, not up, and somebody's got to put a pulse on them and make the those rules stricter. Whoa. But the other thing they say about coping that's fascinating, because I say but I I see that your school is teaching coping skills, right? I see that maybe your mom or is doing yoga with you, and several kids said the same thing. First, you've got to give us a repertoire of coping skills that mindfulness works for some kids, Yoga works for others. You got to give us stuff so we figure out what works for us not works for our mom or dad. And second, another kid nailed it. He said, Yeah, but you don't learn it in a textbook. You've got to make us practice that stuff once we figure it out, so we can do it in the here and now, because it's really a stressful world, and the only way you're going to learn that coping skill is just by keep doing it, doing it until it becomes a habit. By the way, when I looked at thrivers, which was I was trying to figure out, okay, so what are these kids lack, and how do we come up with the skills that are really necessary? And this was prior to the pandemic. So then came the pandemic, and a pandemic only amplifies pre existing crisis. So if you had a mental health or anxiety issue before the pandemic, we know that that's going to be exemplified and going up a level. We looked at seven traits that are highly correlated to resilience as well as peak performance. And of course, voila, number four on the list of self control, learning, coping strategies and skills. This is that moment that we need to add that to the plate. And unfortunately, it's not going to be one that we say, why don't you try this? Because it doesn't work so well with the team. Sometimes it's finding a like minded mom getting on board with her and saying, maybe we can get a group of kids together. For instance, yoga seems to be a hot thing that tween girls say works for them. You know, everything works for different kids, but what one group of parents did is they decided to put four girls together so that they could become the tween yoga group. And they're doing it via zoom, so that's a way to fit it in, so it still peers together and still finding something that works for them together, that seemed to be what helped them thrive.

Casey O'Roarty 9:38
I just really want to pull out and highlight what you're saying, which is, this isn't something we say. This isn't something they read and apply. This is something that they practice over and over and over. And I know for us it was exactly that. It was a we did a DBT program my daughter and I, and part of it was. Weekly workshops around mindfulness and interpersonal relationship skills and coping and stress tolerance, oh my gosh. And then part of it was her own personal therapy sessions, and it was six months long, you know? It took three months for her to really be like, okay, okay, I'll, I'll really give this a go, you know? And so I think that that just, you know, this isn't a one and done. Let's have this conversation, and then everything will be better. This is really setting up an environment for practicing, so I really appreciate that. And self control is learned through experience, right,

Dr. Michele Borba 10:36
exactly? And you know what? I'm just going to give you a moment of getting the gold stars nationality, you recognize what a problem was, and you found an avenue. So we can sit, we can talk about self control, but the next thing is intentionally putting into our parenting agenda the bottom line. And you know, it's a pretty darn uncertain world, and uncertainty and anxiety is going to be part of our kids this pandemic generation's whole new lifestyle. Second thing is, together. You didn't say, okay, sweetie pie, you go, need to have stress management, right? You figured out a way to do it together, if not you and her. Then find another person, because kids are far more likely teens to be able to do it together. And then the third thing, that is the big thing that I think we do wrong, and that is, but I tried it, it didn't work right. New behaviors take a minimum of 21 days, a minute a day. So I always tell parents, you know, go ahead and read, thrivers, but don't you dare go trying all the stuff for your kid who's never going to let you read another book again. Find one thing that you think will work for your family, start with a simple thing first, and don't go pointing it to the child. You're the one that needs stress management. But if you do it together, or find others that do it with you, what'll happen? It could take you do it about 21 days, you'll be able to turn it into a habit, and that's how we help kids thrive. That seems to be the missing piece well, and listen, even

Casey O'Roarty 12:01
as a parent educator who's neck deep in this work, that program that we did together taught me so many areas where I thought I was being really helpful and supportive, and actually I was invalidating her experience. So you know, we all get to continue to grow and evolve as humans in relationship with other humans. So, yeah, but

Dr. Michele Borba 12:24
there's another thing you did, right?

Unknown Speaker 12:28
Tell me more.

Dr. Michele Borba 12:30
The other thing is, you realize that you needed to get trained yourself. Yeah. Well, the big piece about this is that we sometimes, according to what the kids were telling me, all the teens say is that you're you're putting it on to us, but maybe what you need to do is, is help the parents start doing it themselves, so that first they're seeing it in action, or you're pointing it out in action, and then maybe what we're finding, particularly during this pandemic, we're also stressed out, oh yeah, if we're not careful, that starts mirroring down to our kids and in the bottom line, thriving is the ability to become resilient, and that's not locked into DNA. That is not one trait. It's multiple traits, but it's also multiple skill sets. I think we put so much emphasis onto the GPA that we've forgotten the other part that's called resilience skills, oh yeah for kids,

Casey O'Roarty 13:23
oh yeah, yes. Well, and Jessica Leahy was one of my guests in my most recent Summit, and we were talking about remote learning and the challenges that kids are having right now and parents are having with their kids. And you know, when I think about my high school and middle school experience, the thing that, I mean, it's was all the social stuff. It was seeing my friends, it was walking the halls. It was not the teaching and learning. That was just kind of the side effect. And now we've stripped away to nobody's fault. I mean, it's just the nature of the beast right now, but we've stripped away all of those things and and are left with teaching and learning, and we're left with this experience that nobody was trained for. I mean, yeah, my heart just aches for teachers trying to I mean, I was just on a call with adults and trying to get them to turn their camera on. I mean, you know, and teenagers just the same. But, and I know a lot of people in my community, since you brought up GPA and school, a lot of people in my community are really worried and at a loss around how it seems like our kids, you know, that emptiness is showing up as school doesn't matter. What's the point? And it's really like, you know, grasping for gosh, how do I support them in seeing the benefit of even minimal engagement, just so they're not doing any terrible damage. And even as I'm saying that, like, I mean terrible damage, you're gonna have to do ninth grade again. Like, who cares, you know? So let's kind of play with that a little bit, and for listeners to kind of weigh. Out, how can we nurture the social emotional health crisis that our tweens and teens are going through while also holding some sort of expectation around school? Or do we just, like, let it go and clean it up once our kids are in a better emotional and mental space. What do you

Dr. Michele Borba 15:22
think you know? First of all, every one of those points is what's on every parent's brain right now and teachers alike. We're all very concerned, but I think we need to get a grip. And the first thing is, mental health all always has to take precedence, because there's no turning back on that one. Yes, in fact, about an hour before I jumped on this call for you, I was the just devouring the latest on the CDC, and it is dismal. We're looking at just this, just this week compared to last year. We're looking at a 31% increase in depression and Suicidology amongst teens. So zero in on that one. And here's the first thing, first, look at your kid, and don't say it's not my child. Use the two index, which is t, O, O, you keep looking at your child, and every kid's going to have a bad day. You and I know that we're all going to have a bad day. But are those bad days too different from my child's natural, normal? Are they lasting too long? I mean, every day for at least two weeks, are they spilling over into too many other areas? Is your own antenna up too high and saying something's going on? Then the first thing is and the priority list, you pick up the phone and you get some help, because we're seeing rises in depression, Suicidology and anxiety and kids that are unprecedented. And we need to put that in the factor number two along the way, expectations. What works the best expectations we know I always say it's like a rubber band. Your goal is to look for what your kid is is able to do right this minute, and then you gently stretch them. Gently stretch without snapping them. So figure out what we're seeing. Another again, is we're starting to gather all of this information together, and we're noticing something about kids who have been engaged in just zoom lessons for a number of times months over the years, those kids are far more likely to have problems sleeping. Your kid may not tell you that, but there goes there. There goes their cognitive functions. There goes their abilities to stay tuned. There goes their irritability levels. So first thing is stick to as much as a routine schedule as you can all those things we used to do, watch the caffeinated drinks before you go to bed, but also turn off any kind of those flickering images. One mom said she finally had enough of the battles that were going on. She said the easiest thing that she did was finally just turn off the Wi Fi internet, Wi Fi 11 o'clock every night and turn it on at six o'clock in the morning. She said it saved unbelievable amount of time she and her kids are sleeping better. So don't overlook those things, because a lot of our kids have hit the covid wall. Their motivation is down, their pessimism is up, and as a result, when you say, get in there and keep working harder, Sweetie Pie, they're at a reserve level that's just dormant because they're burned out just like us.

Casey O'Roarty 18:15
This is so exactly what the community needs to be hearing right now, and it's a lot of validation too. It's that's something that I encourage parents to do. And what we do at our house is, you know, the battles are brutal, and so guess what? Like, go upstream, turn off the Wi Fi.

Dr. Michele Borba 18:31
Yeah, you know what? We forget. We forget about resilience is ordinary things can make extraordinary differences. We think this is a big, fancy program and an app. No what I was trying to do when I was writing drivers is comb what the research says are the simplest things. By the way, resilience is teachable. They've actually looked at our kids who are most likely to be resilient, and two things always come up. So this is your why. You better be more intentional about it, kids who are more likely to have that. I got it kind of an attitude. I'll get through it, whether it's a pandemic, a fire zone or, you know, a hurricane, or whatever. First always have the caring champion in their life. That's us. We love our kids, yes. But the fascinating thing about caring champions, they discovered, I mean, we're looking at parents during like World War Two, which parents were able to help their kids. Fascinating. You all know this one. This was blew me away. Remember that thing in London? This was your world war two history lesson from way back when in London, when the air raid sirens would go off and the bombings every night, the Blitz would happen. And can you imagine? Well, many parents in London said it's going to be safer if my if I have my child go off to the countryside away from me, because then he'll live, okay, all right, then they follow those kids up who did better, the kids on the countryside, or the kids in the middle of the Blitz in the war zone, who stayed with the parents. I.

Casey O'Roarty 20:00
Yeah. Well, part of me wants to say the kids in the countryside, you know, skipping around in the flowers, but I'm guessing that you're gonna say it's the kids in the who stayed with their parents were were found safety in their parents and some resiliency around living through it.

Dr. Michele Borba 20:15
Oh my gosh. A plus again, yes. And the reason for it is fascinating. I was interviewing, oh God. She was a reporter. She was probably 85 and she'd lived through it all. And I finally said, Well, how the heck did you do so? Well, what happens when the Blitz went on, when the air raid sirens went on? She had this moment. She actually stalled and goes, I don't remember that part. I just remember my parents Pulling the black shades, and then we're all would sing around, ring, Around the Rosie and play all these songs. They were calm. So we were calm. So I guess the first thing is, when we're looking at why, how do you raise a thriver? You got to take care of yourself so you can take care of kids. We are burned out. So go back to any of the strategies that you think you want to teach your kid and start with yourself, because the second most highly correlated factor yet, they had a you that was calm. But the second thing is, they had what Amy Warner called protective buffers, hobbies. For instance, one of the most amazing thing about resilient kids is that they have something that gives them joy, that they can backlog on. And I was asking kids, so what are your hobbies? Many of the middle school kids look at me dumbfounded. What's a hobby? Who's got time for hobbies? Well, bring them in, because hobbies can be what helps your child decompress. I don't care if it's knitting or cookie baking or woodworking or yoga or reading music. Many of the kids said that it really helped find kinds of songs to play on a playlist. I was interviewing Natalie, my God, she's a gold mine age 14. I said, Natalie, how you getting through this? She says, Oh, I'm listening to Mozart. Mozart. She said, I figured out the beach and Mozart really helped me stay calm. I said, Okay, she's got a she has a playlist loaded on her phone. That's perfect. I said, and okay, Natalie, suppose you have a good day. What do you do? She's I crank up Elton John and start pacing around the room. I'm still standing and I'm going home. Yay for you. But hobbies are one thing. Some kids have decompress, or some kids it's exercise or walks or simple things like that, but they know what works, and they plug them in on a routine ritual. So maybe it's nothing more than a hobby.

Casey O'Roarty 22:32
Yeah. Well, and you know, I'm reading Rachel Macy Stafford's recent book, and the the phrase that she uses that I love, which is exactly what you're talking about, is refuge, having a refuge like for my in my our family, my son is plays basketball, and he's all about basketball, and that's, you know, we were talking just last night, and I said, I love that basketball is your refuge. And he was like, what does that even mean? You know, it was awesome to bring the phrase to the conversation and then to explain, you know, making the explicit, implicit, implicit, explicit, like helping him see, oh yeah, basketball is my refuge. It is the place where I get to be me, with me, and let go of the noise of everything right now.

Dr. Michele Borba 23:17
Okay, so excuse me, but that is such an incredible point of a takeaway. Every parent, not doesn't have to be today, but sometime in your lifetime, in the next month, figure out what your kids refuges, or, you know, the Natalie, it's music. Another kid, it's the basketball court. What gives your child and you because we put ourselves so much on the back burner. Think about prior to the pandemic, what did you do to keep yourself up and alive? And it doesn't mean that you can go to a spa treatment anymore, but you can certainly add maybe it's a hike or a walk, or just going outside and sitting for a minute and just contemplating, what is it that's going to give you a sense of peace and recharge you? It's the recharge that our kids are needing and

Casey O'Roarty 24:02
so when we're considering, and I'm guessing we're probably going to circle back to what you said, which I loved the baby stretch. But you know some of our kids, and I know people are listening right now who really are yes, yes, yes, with everything we're saying, and then they're thinking about their teenager, who is so deeply discouraged that even having a conversation and trying, like inviting them into taking a walk or moving from the bedroom to the living room is is really feels unattainable right now. Do you have any thoughts or or tools or ideas for those parents on how to reengage with their with their teens,

Dr. Michele Borba 24:42
yeah? And once again, it was teens who told me the answers. Oh, perfect. Said too often, parents worry about the right thing to say to kids, and then when they say it, it's not the right thing. Once again,

Casey O'Roarty 24:57
that's real helpful. Yeah.

Dr. Michele Borba 24:59
So I said, so. What do you do? They said, and so many of them said the same thing. Sometimes the best thing a parent can do is just be there. Just be calm. There be sit down next to us. You don't have to say anything, but if we know you're there that alone can really help. Now, that was glorious. Another Dad told me, actually it was on a interview with a radio show, and he was a producer in the middle of it, when we were on break, he said, Okay, I got to tell you a story to work for me, and maybe it'll help for the parents. Is that I gave up on trying to figure out what the heck to say to my kid. He was so struggling so much, but I refused to stop letting him think that I cared about him, and the only way I could communicate was I decided to leave a post it note on his pillow every night. I just kept leaving posters. He never said a darn thing about the posted and one day I couldn't find my shoes. He always borrows them. I went into the room he already left. I'm looking all over the place. I go under his bed, and I'm seeing this cigar box, and I got every worst thought in my world about what the heck. I opened it out every single post it note was there. Oh, it's like, find the one consistent thing you can say, the fascinating thing. In fact, I started writing from thrivers the first chapter, each chapter has a story about a real human being that we know that went through an enormously horrific time, the person in in empathy, Elizabeth smart, who was remembered her the kidnapping, you know, knife point, and then for nine months, absolutely horrible, raping, kidnapping. Well, there was one moment, but I'm reading her book that said the moment that turned my life, that said you can get through this was about a weekend of the kidnapping when I didn't think I was going to make it. And then I remembered something my mom said to me, and that's what got me through. And every day, I kept remembering the one thing my mom said is, remember, no matter what happens to you, I will love you no matter what she said, what I knew. My mom said that no matter what it was and how dismal what was going through when she knew what was happening to me right now, my mom loves me no matter what that was, what I kept repeating to myself,

Casey O'Roarty 27:16
Oh, my God, let's just take a minute everyone, collect ourselves and take your head out of imagining your child as Elizabeth smart come back to the conversation. Oh so powerful, so powerful. And I think something that I want to speak into as well for the listeners too, is to remember that even though the evidence may be, what you can see and hear right now with your teen is that they want nothing to do with you, it's contrary to their actual need and desire to be in relationship with you, yeah, and sometimes what

Dr. Michele Borba 27:57
they do is test. Let's see how irritable and obnoxious I can be and see if she's still gonna be there.

Casey O'Roarty 28:04
Yeah, yeah. And not, like, not consciously, even like, sometimes it's just simply like, you know, it's out of their consciousness, and they're in that teen brain development, reacting to life and to us and but I just think, you know, that's something, myself included remembering when things are really tough with my relationships with my kids, I know that they that they want to be in relationship with me. It's just there are barriers, there are blocks, there are things going on that are making that relationship difficult. So I love the post it note story I love I know something that we've done in the past is I will just say I just want to come in and hang out near you. I We don't have to talk and like she's on her phone, I'm on my phone or my laptop, or I have a book or whatever, and just as long as she'll let me, you know, I'll be close by. I'll be close by if you can find

Dr. Michele Borba 28:56
any, any, any connector, and you gotta fake it sometimes. I mean, there were some shows that my kids say they absolutely loved. I hated them, but, oh, I can't wait for that show. Just to be able to sit on the couch with them is what you're looking for any moment. Because it's hard. It's not easy, particularly now. And the reason you got to keep this in mind is when stress builds and uncertainty builds and the connection is going down with our kids. The lifelines they have of their friends is going down the outcome. It's called burnout. That's exactly what produces burnout, where we're facing it, they're facing it. So maybe it's a moment to where you know of the seven traits that we know that thrivers have, number two on the list is empathy. There are we kind of a kid, but maybe it's flipping it. It's not teaching our kids empathy. It's us having the empathy to step into our kids shoes and going, how would I feel if I were this kid who'd gone through so much grief and so much disappointment and all those milestones of their lives? And yeah, we we think they're going to get through and they're still. Healthy and well being, but there's still a kid. They're still a teen, and they're still struggling,

Casey O'Roarty 30:12
well and sometimes also, I wonder, you know, we've had our own inner like a family struggle through the pandemic that's totally separate from the pandemic. And have you know, talk about pulled the curtain back, just on the level of thriving that my family can step into. It's been amazing, and my listeners know about it, but I'm not going to go there. But I wonder if there is something like I'm looking forward to the day that we can look back at this time and just like you did with those kids that stayed in London with their parents, I'm really looking forward to the time where we can look back and we can recognize all the gifts and the skills and the things that came because we all collectively went through this experience together.

Dr. Michele Borba 30:59
Yeah, it's really, I think we need to redefine it as a collective grief. And when you do something together, it makes it a little bit easier. But to that point, there are some teachers. I spent a lot of time doing webinars with teachers, and what are you doing to help kids get through it? And many of them saying, We're doing timelines. The timelines are the memories of the you know, The Rose and the thorn. What's the best parts? What's the worst parts? But timelines. We're now trying to do is even coming up with a class journal that's writing the good points so that we can start at least dropping them down. Some families are doing that as a family journal. That's a good point. This was a good day. Well, this was funny. Let's write it down so the kids start to look for at least some of the more optimistic outlooks that are happening. And that's one of the thriving traits, is hope and optimism. Before that, all the pessimism becomes so pervasive and takes down a child's sense of hope.

Casey O'Roarty 31:56
Well, and I want to get to optimism, but I but we keep teasing everybody with the character strengths from your book, will you What are so you've mentioned empathy, you've mentioned optimism. Well, yeah,

Dr. Michele Borba 32:09
thank you. I just just so that you know, there's a there's an actual framework. When I said, Okay, resilience is teachable. It is not a trait, and it's not locked into IQ, then what are the traits that that we can teach to kids right at any age. And by the way, it's never too late, so you can also do this for yourself. It seems like the foundation is, is a confidence or a self understanding, like your refuge. What are things that give you the joy, or what are things that you can do? We follow so much on our kids weaknesses that sometimes we overlook of just who they are, and follow that lead, and then what we know is there's six other traits, but they don't have to be in order. It's not like a linear possession you just and there's no kid that has all seven. So don't feel guilty again. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Casey O'Roarty 32:54
We're all a work in progress.

Dr. Michele Borba 32:55
Number two is kids think we not me. Emmy Warner, once again, says that drivers generally have a sense of social competence, but that means your kid doesn't have to be Little Miss popular if he has at least one or two loyal buddies that's enough to keep him going. Because we now know that one of the highest correlations to kids who were able to get through a pandemic and aren't truncated with mental health problems, is connection with something or someone. A third one is that self control. 101, the coping strategies. Do they know how to cope? Do they know what their stress signs are? Do they know how to put the brake on the impulses so they can think straight? Those are all teachable. Fourth is, I love. It is integrity or a moral compass, particularly for a teen, because when some kids hit mental adversity. So what you then have to do is figure out, can I get around it? Can I get through it? But if you have to sit and waver and waver and think too hard on it, your stress builds. Those kids who are thrivers sent I know what I stand for because my parents have embedded in me so long. So here's what I'm going to decide to do. My favorite one that I didn't realize was so highly correlated to resilience is curiosity. Yes, they have an openness to ideas and people. So when the adversity comes, they're problem shooters. They find a way around it. They're not rescued by the parent. But brainstorming and problem solving has been, by the way, that's highly correlated to keep depression down. They're using that at University of Pennsylvania when they teach kids problem solving, decision making, like, even in your family, that we brainstorm it over and over again, kids begin to see that they have agency. Drivers have agency, or a sense of not that you're giving them the car case, but it's like I have a little bit of control over my life. It's in my brain. Yes, then comes perseverance. They know that failure is okay. They can keep on going with it. They're able to figure out what the mistake is and see it as an opportunity to flip it around. Also, by the way teens say, a critical thing is let them know. Oh, please tell us that mistakes are okay in our in the house, because we don't want to disappoint you. And then the final one is optimism, or a sense of hope. How do you keep hope alive? Not that you're Pollyanna for Pete sakes, but you have some skill sets to be able to stop the negative thought or shrink your worry so it doesn't just become so pervasive you put all those together, or at least what I discovered, that was my final thing on this is, you put any two of those together, they become multiplier effect. They amplify it so they become two superpowers too often. What I see is like in many school programs or home programs, we teach just self control, or we emphasize just empathy, don't you put any two together. You've got a kid who's far more likely to thrive because they multiply the outcomes. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 35:50
What I love about that is that feels like a stepping stone, versus like, get these seven things down and everything will be okay, but giving us permission to really just think about, you know, let's start with two and embed it into our conversations. Notice it in the shows that we're watching, see it in the books that we're reading. Model it. I love that you have time and time again, talked about how important it is for us parents to be modeling love mistakes, being opportunities to learn, and being explicit with our teens, because everyone you've heard me say this before like they're gonna make mistakes, whether you threaten them or not, and that's when they get to experience the tension of integrity. That's when they get to experience the tension of coping. That's when they get to be in the, you know, the Olympics of the skill building. They have to be able to go out and put them into practice in real ways. And we get to take our deep breaths and trust that the mistakes that they make aren't going to be the worst possible mistakes, but love

Dr. Michele Borba 37:01
that. Yeah, and you know what I just counter back to you, I'm collecting research now from all over the world on what seems to help kids who just have faced a year of a pandemic be more likely to thrive and get to the other side. And a fascinating study just came out from China that kind of replicates that piece on perseverance. Those kids who had a growth mindset, who believe that they can keep going, that it's all a matter of the effort that they put in and not locked into IQ or GPA or zip code, are far more likely to get through it and get to the other side. And one piece of that is that they recognize that, okay, I blew it, I made a mistake. So it's not again. A fixed mindset. I got to figure out what my stumbler was, or what the error was, and how do I get around it, or what's that one little thing like, when the kid is so overwhelmed with that big old, huge math paper. And one of the reasons they're so overwhelmed with the math paper is because there's one little issue in there that they can't figure out their stumbler. So you zero in on, let's just chunk this worry here into what's the really the thing you're worried about. I don't know how to do this piece of it. Okay, then let that your stumbler. Let's figure out how to get around it so that you can keep practicing now you can get over it. It's called chunking, a fear, and it's a great concept for optimism as well as perseverance.

Casey O'Roarty 38:28
I love that my son recently was having a hard time in math, like it was one small lesson that just didn't land for him, and then he had, you know, an everyday builds on the lesson. So he was, like, three days in to feeling really discouraged. And I reminded him, like, Hey, your teacher doesn't know that you don't understand unless you tell him. So maybe try emailing your teacher, and I bet he would, you know, jump on Zoom and do a quick tutorial with you. And Ian was open to it, and he did it and and it was so cool. What I really appreciated about it is I checked in with him a couple days later, how's the math going? And he was like, Oh yeah, I totally get it. Now. It was just this one thing, and just really encouraging him to like that was he reached out to his teacher. He was the one that asked for help. And I just see that little experience as later on, like we always need help. We always need to be able to say, Ooh, can you support me with this? And so that was really, I

Dr. Michele Borba 39:33
again, that's the piece that goes right back to that agency. I think a lot of times we we do a lot of good boys, but we forget to say, you got it, you can do it. And if we put it back on the kid, that's better. So much better. I remember my own backward days of taking piano lessons and having the world's worst teacher in the whole wide world, Mr. White. I couldn't stand him. Now the. Reason I couldn't stand Mr. White is he had this fetish that if you made one mistake halfway into whatever you were playing, you had to start all over again. So what would happen is I'd sit and be so stressed and begin to hate music, because all I would worry about is that one darn mistake. Bless Mrs. Thompson, she was my next teacher. Because what she'd do instead was go, Okay, well, let's figure out that one little that one little stumbler, she'd call it. Let's worry it through. Let's figure out how to do that. And then now let's go in the beginning. Oh, there weren't my stress. Now I'm back to the joy of music, because I wasn't worried about it at all. You know, another tip you can teach a kid is do the hardest thing first, because that's the thing you're most worried about. Get it over, otherwise you're going to spend five hours worrying about that one little darn thing on the paper. You get done with that you're going to be able to breathe.

Casey O'Roarty 40:50
So you all listening? I know that you just cannot get enough of Dr Borba, and so I want to let you know too that in her book, these seven essential character skills are broken down into three parts, and every chapter, she shares activities like, I mean, thank you. This book is a gold mine, activities that encourage the development of each skills, like activities you can do with your kids, as well as prompts for conversations. We always love those. It's such a powerful tool for looking at ourselves and our own thriver characteristics, as well as really cultivating an environment that draws our kids into these skills. Thank you for your hard work on this. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. Thank the

Dr. Michele Borba 41:40
kids for saying, Oh, if we only give kids a voice, what a difference,

Casey O'Roarty 41:44
right, right? So what if, if listeners are going to take away one thing, what do you hope that it is?

Dr. Michele Borba 41:50
Oh, I think that we it's the reset on parenting that we put so much into a GPA. And yes, our kids need to be smart, but they also need to be smart in life. And what I'm trying to do is exactly what you said offer what in thrivers is just the skills that research says our kids need matter most. And by the way, they're the same skills that are that college. It was college professors that kept saying something's going on here. Our kids don't have the resilience factors. In fact, many schools across the country, Ivy League colleges, freshman year, first semester, orientation, the first week. By the way, in many schools is teaching these skills. Why wait? Why wait? These are teachable. We can teach them from a young age. Just don't teach them all at once. That's the goal. Let's raise the rivers. Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:40
Rain it in. Everyone. Slow and steady wins the race. Yeah. So, something that I've added to my show, I think, since you were on the first time, is that I end with one particular question, which is, you know, my business is called joyful courage. I would love to know. Dr Borba, what does joyful courage mean to you? Oh,

Dr. Michele Borba 43:04
thank you so much for that. It means having that brave, brave inner sense to go, go for it. Because as soon as I do and anytime that I'm going, should I, shouldn't I, as soon as I do it, I get so excited with myself, because once I get to the other side. It's like, there is joy. I did it, I achieved it. And that's, I think, the end. I love that term,

Casey O'Roarty 43:26
thank you. Where can people find you and follow and find your book and follow your work? Oh, thank

Dr. Michele Borba 43:32
you. Well, I'm Michelle Borba, but I'm a 1l Michelle, and Borba rhymes with Zorba, so it's Michelle Borba. Thrivers is the book there's, by the way, if you're anybody out there who is a teacher that's listening, I just put a 17 page discussion guide for teachers on how to implement thrivers in a classroom, because I think parents and teachers, we all need to get on to the same plate together and kind of shrink the village so we're talking the same stuff. Yes,

Casey O'Roarty 44:00
awesome. And is your website? Michelle borba.com, it is.

Dr. Michele Borba 44:05
Thank you very much. And Michelle Borba, that's what I am on Twitter as well. Great.

Casey O'Roarty 44:10
Well. Thank you so much for spending time with me. This was fantastic. I can't believe I waited. We waited so long to come back together. Oh,

Dr. Michele Borba 44:17
I can't either, but I hope I don't have to write another book in order to get invited back in?

Casey O'Roarty 44:21
Definitely not. This

Dr. Michele Borba 44:22
was too fun. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 44:31
All right. All right, all right. Did you hear that little dazed and confused reference? Any fans of dazed and confused just like the theme of my senior year of college. Thank you again for listening to the show, my friends. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, do me a favor, please head over to Apple podcasts and leave a five star review about the show. Let me know what you love. Let others know what you love and why you keep listening to. The joyful courage podcast working really hard over here to stand out, make a massive impact and grow my audience around the globe. Your review helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also. If you are on Instagram, I want you to find me at joyful, underscore courage. Joyful, underscore courage. That's where I hang out, on Instagram, and you can find me on Facebook. I love connecting with you on social media. Don't forget. Don't forget. Sign up for that minimizing risky behavior workshop that's happening may 20. Super excited to gather up with you all live and move through some really powerful processes together. So grateful for each and every one of you. Have a beautiful week. Love you. Mwah,

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