Eps 268: Ted Bunch and Anna Marie Johnson Teague talk powerful DARES for boys

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Hello, friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey o'brdie, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I am perfectly raised my own to teenagers, joyful courage is all about grit. My friends growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, and I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. Super grateful that what I put out matters to you, and so so excited to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show.

Hi everybody. Welcome back to the show. My guests today are Ted bunch and Anna Marie Johnson Teague. Ted and Anna Marie are friends parents and anti violence educators. They work for a call to men, helping men and boys promote healthy manhood and prevent violence and discrimination. Ted works with professional athletes, business leaders, activists and boys just like the ones you have. Anna Marie is a storyteller at heart and a devoted boy mom. She is nationally recognized for creating and executing award winning multi platform campaigns to avoid critical social issues like improving education and ending violence against women Ted lives in New York and Anna Marie lives in Texas. I am so glad to welcome you both to the podcast. Hello,

Ted Bunch 2:09
hello, hello. Thank you. Casey, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 2:13
Can you both take some time and share a little bit with the listeners about how you found yourself doing what you do?

Ted Bunch 2:20
Sure, why don't I jump in there? Because I've been doing it with the organization, a call to men since its inception. I founded the organization with the other co founder, who is also the CEO of the organization, Tony Porter, in 2002 so we're coming up on 20 years, and the work was really born out of the importance of ending violence and discrimination against women and girls in our country. And certainly, then when we looked at intervening was really the solution. Someone had to do something, and you want to intervene, and our work is to go upstream to prevention, where it never happened in the first place. So we looked at violence and discrimination against women and girls, while most men don't engage in those things, most of us are silent about those that do, and that silence is as much of the problem as the abuse and the in the violence is, and we wanted to speak to that silence, so we formed the organization of calls to men, and the work is really focused on engaging men and boys in healthy, respectful manhood.

Casey O'Roarty 3:31
Thank you. What about you? Anna Marie, how did you get into the work that you're doing?

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 3:35
So Casey, my son, was three months old when I first heard Ted speaking to a group of 300 plus high school boys in New Orleans, Louisiana. We were in this huge gymnasium, and the boys were seated in these long rows of folding chairs, and Ted started talking about the teachings of the man box. He was talking about how boys are socialized to view women and and girls and their own manhood, and how part of that socialization creates an environment where sexism and inequality can thrive. And he was talking about the rigid notions of manhood and how boys are taught to be tough and aggressive and always being in control and to have all the answers, and how that was really limiting and harmful to boys, and you know, to his credit, he told stories and he shared a lot and spoke from the heart about his own experience as a son and a father. And I remember watching the boys in the audience, and some of them were choking back tears, and some of them were just so visibly uncomfortable in their seats, and some were whispering to their friends, like really looking for a distraction, and some were making jokes to push back all the feelings that were coming up for them. What I can tell you, Casey, is that all of them were reacting, and so was I, because I was thinking about my baby boy back home, who is now 12. No no baby anymore. And I was thinking. About all that I hoped for him, you know, as a new mom, and I wanted him to be all that he was created to be. And I wanted him to be able to love sports and art, and I wanted him to be able to be brave and emotional. And as I watched him as like envisioned myself watching him growing up, I wanted to be able to celebrate all of him, and not just the parts that society deemed were important to his boyhood and ultimately his manhood. And so standing just off stage in that big gymnasium, you know, in Uptown New Orleans, I thought to myself, I gotta hang on to this guy somehow. So I've actually spent more than a decade working to advance the mission of a call to man, first as a consultant, then as a board member, and now on staff as chief communications officer and the co author of the book of heirs.

Casey O'Roarty 5:52
I love that, and I love the experience of being so moved and inspired by a speaker, because I am not shy when that happens, I'm I'm the first in line to say hi and introduce myself and let them know how powerful their presentation was, so how great for you to be in that space, and what landed for me in listening to your story both of you is and the work that you're both doing is my own desire. I have a 15 year old son and an 18 year old daughter, and I want both of them to feel safe, to be fully expressed, you know, to have all the facets of who they are be on the table. And so I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing and learning more about you and sharing you with my community of parents. Will you talk about this new book that you have, the Book of Dares. I had the privilege of being able to look through an E version of it. But I would love to know your inspiration for creating this book and and I would love for you to tell it's the design of it is really creative, and how you you know the way, different ways that parents and boys and educators can be using it. Will you tell us about the book? Yeah,

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 7:15
absolutely. I'll share a little bit about the book, and then maybe Ted can speak to why we chose the concept dares. So just as an intro, the Book of Dares is a it's a collection of 100 dares that all ladder up. Every one of them ladder up to promote healthy masculinity, authenticity in our boys and gender equity. And the book is grounded both in, you know, our own practical parenting strategies, things that that Ted and I and our team have done with our own children, and of course, pulled from the 20 years of experience, a call to men has working with men and boys to promote healthy manhood. We are super grateful Casey that the book has been called a direct answer to parents cries for building healthy manhood, respect and emotional literacy in their sons. But at the end of the day, you know, we're both parents and we're both anti violence educators, and we noticed a huge gap in the market. And you as a mom of a 15 year old boy, probably has seen this too. There's not a lot of content out there for boys that encourages their authenticity, that speaks to them about healthy masculinity and healthy relationships that helps them develop emotional literacy and support social emotional learning. So we want this book to be a tool for boys, for parents, for mentors, for teachers, to offer our boys a path forward, to show them what healthy masculinity looks like, to be able to show them that they can be their whole and authentic selves, and to give them permission, because a lot of times that's what they're looking for and need they they want to do. They want to help create more equity in our society, but, but sometimes we need to create a path forward for them to do that.

Ted Bunch 8:57
And the why the concept of dares was really because, you know, we had interviewed boys, probably about 1000 boys from around the country, all different demographics of boys, and they would look like the boys who are in any of the parents in your listening audience. Those are the boys that we interviewed, and we started talking about the concept of dares, and they were terrified and fascinated that they really love the idea of dares, and that we were now turning that on its head and making it only about positive challenges, 100 ways for boys to be kind bold and brave. And so we really wanted to have a way in for boys where they would pique their interest and they'd want to do it. And there's 100 of them, and they're very they're very clear and to the point. And as Anna Marie said, they're in air in three areas, authenticity, healthy masculinity and gender equality and inclusion. And we really wanted to have a place where boys could pick it up at any point. You don't have. Read it in front cover to the back, you could pick it up at any point. And there's 100 dares that they can choose from. And we really found that not only were the boys excited, and I know that you said you had 15 year olds, and we had originally written the book for eight to 13 year old, male identified youth. And what's what's happened is these other people within those boys lives, their big brothers, or like the age of your son, have said, Oh, this dare resonates with me. We've had girls and gender non conforming youth also say, Oh, this resonates with me and actually accesses conversations with moms and fathers with their sons, it opens doors for fathers to have conversations where we're having, we're hearing from mothers who have bought the book, and the fathers are reading their sons, right? Because moms, generally, the ones who buying the book, who are saying, My My husband is, you know, he's having conversations we've never had before because of this book. So it's really exciting, it's fun and it's very accessible.

Casey O'Roarty 11:10
Yeah, well, you two give some examples of some of the dares that are in the book because I just the way that they're laid out and written. I read one about including girls in in sports. What are some other dares that show up in the book that, have, you know, been kind of highlighted for you around, you know, in feedback that you've gotten? What are some of the favorites? So

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 11:35
one favorite that I consistently get is dare to name three emotions you felt today. And I think this is because so often in society, our boys are taught to shut it down, you know. And so you would be surprised, or maybe you wouldn't. Casey, given, given all that you do, and the folks you talk to, how many boys and grown men cannot do this,

Casey O'Roarty 11:58
oh yeah, that is not surprising to hear.

Ted Bunch 12:00
Part of the reason

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 12:02
is because we find that when young people, like when my son Jack, brings a problem to me as a problem solving, you know, type a mama, my inclination is that we want to fix the problem, right? So I quickly want to offer up a solution. And so what I've done with him since he was young, and it's, it's had to be an intentional choice, because that is my inclination, but it's to step back, you know. And I think adults and in kids lives are quick to offer opinions and solutions. But what, what we can do that benefits our boys even more is ask them, how did that make you feel? So prompting our boys to articulate their feelings, builds their emotional literacy. It helps them process what's going on in their lives. It's adding to their vocabulary, and it sets them up to be better communicators in their personal and professional lives.

Casey O'Roarty 12:53
I love that, and I just want to add a little something to that for the listeners who I'm guessing have probably heard me say this, but I just want to remind you all sometimes, when you ask the question of, how did that make you feel, and your kids aren't in the practice of paying attention to their emotions, you will get, I don't know, and I just want to encourage all of you that when you get that response, one of the things that I do and have done in the past, is to say, okay, great. Well, pay attention the next time that experience shows up, because I'm going to ask you again. So you know, I just don't want anyone to feel discouraged. Because I'm sure you know, with both of you and your work, depending on how old the kids are and the amount of tools and skills parents have you when you start to shift the conversation this way, it's not always as if our kids are like, Oh, finally, you're asking me how I feel about this, right, right?

Ted Bunch 13:55
Oh, for sure,

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 13:57
Casey, what do our voice say when we ask them? How are you What do they say? They say, I'm good.

Casey O'Roarty 14:03
My son says I'm good. G

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 14:07
and they say it whether they're good or not. So we have to make an effort, especially with our boys, to push past that.

Ted Bunch 14:13
Can I add something there? Casey, please, please. Yeah. And they say I'm good, because that's what they're taught to say. I'm not talking about what happens in our homes. I'm talking about what society tells them that collective socialization of manhood is passed down, that collective socialization of masculinity to these boys that we're not supposed to first of all, when, when our boys start crying. In many cases, we're telling them at four or five years old. So stop crying in one way or another. We're saying things like, suck it up, man up, big boys, don't cry. Stop acting like a little this. Stop acting like a little that. Or we might not be so blatant. We might say things like,

Casey O'Roarty 14:53
I don't understand okay, yeah, yeah,

Ted Bunch 14:55
exactly you're okay. Or I don't understand you when you're crying, when our girl. Girls, we allow them to talk about it, to process it, to let it all out. So as a result, our boys are told not to not to cry, which also means to them don't feel because they don't know the difference. And then they they grow into men who don't have language for emotion. Can't articulate really what we're feeling. We just want to say, I'm good, gee. So this is really important, and the Book of Dares taps into that, because we tap into the importance of expressing your feelings, and it's being vulnerable is a good thing, and it's actually a strength, and it's going to serve you well later on in life as well. And when we talk to our boys, in particular, about emotion, and I just want to share what one of the one of the dares that that, yes, that just came up for me, because when you ask the question, I just went to the book, and I love just going to the book and just grabbing something, right? And so there's one that says, dare to encourage someone's uniqueness, right? Because a lot of times when kids have differences, they're bullied for it or picked on for it, right, right? And then there's another one here I'm just grabbing dare to be an aspiring ally. Dare to do something kind, just because, like, that's the dares. Dare to talk about the things that worry you most. We're really encouraging boys to develop language, to have these conversations, so that we can really help them be the most full, authentic people that they can be as they grow, and as a result, they're going to be much more inclusive and understanding and acceptable of other people as well. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 16:40
So a few years ago, I watched the mask you live in. I'm sure you've both seen that documentary. Maybe. Did it call to men? Make that documentary?

Ted Bunch 16:49
We Well, we love it as well. We did not make it. I believe it was the misrepresent. Yes,

Casey O'Roarty 16:55
misrepresentation people,

Ted Bunch 16:57
yes, yes. The same person who did miss, she's she's brilliant. We make it, but we're throughout it with Tony Porter, who's the CEO and co founder, and actually the original visionary for a call to man, is featured throughout it. So and a lot about the man box, yes. Oh, and

Casey O'Roarty 17:16
it's set. It was just such a powerful film. And, you know, I've been singing its praises. I have a sister in law who teaches high school English, and she brought it in and shared it with her students, and then shared with me some of the writing that they came back with and the conversations they were having with their families. And I'm also familiar with Rosalyn Wiseman's book she writes, I believe she has something called the girl box, where there is conversation also around, like, what's expected of girls and how to be outside the box. Can you highlight in your work about the man box? And you know, you've already alluded TED to all of the cultural pieces and messaging that comes to our boys, which I mean the mask you live in, really highlights that in an almost painful way. But talk about the man box and how the work that you do, you know both yes to supporting our boys and expanding the experience that our boys are having, but I'm also thinking about the men that are raising our boys. And again, yes, it's typically the moms that buy the book, and it's also typically the moms that are listening to this podcast. Although, hi dads, I see you. I know you're out there listening as well. There's a handful of them. How can we support our boys and our husbands in their awareness and their growth, because I know it's, you know, it's an internal it's an internal job, and we as partners, you know, we also want to be in support of the growth of the people we love the most. So anyway, tell talk to us about the man box and how, you know, we can just really show up for the boys and the husbands. Sure,

Ted Bunch 19:07
thank you, and we can support our our the men in our life and the boys in our lives by recognizing and realizing that how they're responding is simply how they've been taught to respond and and as limited as that may feel, it's really how they've been taught to respond. And that is the man box, that collective socialization of manhood. And it's actually a term that a call to men has coined, and it illustrates, as I said, the socialization of manhood, how boys are taught to view manhood and what society means, what society says it means to be a man, and how we're taught to view women and girls and so, for example, men and boys are taught to be tough. Don't ask for help. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, be aggressive, dominating, powerful. Have all the answers. You know, don't show weakness. Don't show any. Emotion, except for anger, all of those things, and those things are just passed down from one generation to the next. You know, when we go to high schools and middle schools, we often, you know, as adult men go again, apologize to the boys for whatever their views are about men and manhood and their views about women that we challenge. Do we also take responsibility for because you learned it from men like us in our in in your community. And so it's not an indictment on manhood. It's actually just an invitation for men to see things differently. So this man box really restricts us. It shuts us in. It also teaches our boys things like and we pass this down again, from men to boys, one generation to the next, things like women and girls have less value than men and boys, that on some level, women are the property of men, and that women and girls are sexual objects. Like this is a really important lesson that we need our dads to really, really, really connect with you know, I often tell a story, and this is more of like the age of yours, of your son, that you talked about your 15 year old, about this man box, and how it's just in the air that we breathe, right? It's just yeah, these messages that we're getting. And just let me give an example, a little story. Anna Marie said, we tell stories that are called to men. So I just can't help myself sometimes. Please do all right. So, so think about your high school, the boy, the young man that goes to the high school that your son goes to. And I'll ask you a listing audience also to think about a great young man in your community who's in high school. Let's say he's a senior, and his name is John, and he's taking a young woman who's also a senior at the high school out to a movie. This was before covid, of course, right, right? And John's taking Kathy out to a movie. And he gets on a group text with a couple of his buddies who are also in high school with John, and he says, I'm taking Kathy out to the movie, guys, I'll, I'll hit you guys up later on the text, right? And they give him a little crap for that. But he goes, takes her, he he's, he ends, you know, the movie ends. He takes Kathy home. He's the perfect gentleman. He gets back on the group text and says to his friends, Hey guys, I'm back from the movie. Is the first thing those boys ask him is, how was the movie?

Casey O'Roarty 22:18
No, no, right?

Ted Bunch 22:19
So they ask him things that are about sex, about sexual objectification. In other words, that's and if, if John says, Well, no, I didn't try to get anything, because that's what they're going to ask him, right? Yeah, did you get some? Right? Did you right? Did you get some? And if he says that, they're going to say they're going to punish him for that. They're going to say that you're this, or you're that they're going to say things to him that let him know that he's falling short of the manhood that we've taught them they have to live up to. So that's that collective socialization. And what we've found is that with our work with high middle school and high schools, and we have a liver spec curriculum we wrote with scholastic that by the time they get to middle school, why are while our curriculum is amazing, focused on gender equity, healthy masculinity, racial equity, it's an amazing curriculum, but by the time they get to middle school, their views, their understandings about gender norms and what's expected of them as Being young men, as boys going into young, young adulthood is very clear. So we needed to go earlier than that. And that's why the Book of Dares is was written by Anna Marie and I to really fill that gap. Do

Casey O'Roarty 23:32
you feel like? Because I feel like, when our kids move into middle school, like that adolescent, early adolescent place is where they also move from trusting, absorbing, believing everything the parents say, and are moving into looking more externally at peer groups and culture and society. I know that's when you know, instead of kind of this is, and it's it's interesting, because every couple of months, somebody in my community will show up, usually their child is about 11 or 12, and they'll say, oh my gosh, what is going on with the Music My kid is listening to? And it happens for I mean, it's like clockwork. Our kids move into like, sixth, seventh grade, and all of a sudden the parents are like, Oh my gosh, everything just got so explicit and so demeaning. And, you know, there's no more metaphor and what's going on. And my kids went through the same thing, and they've both, you know, my daughter kind of went full circle with it. My son is still a little bit in it. I'm not a big fan of his music choice. But do you find too that that is also when culture, and you know, the values that society deem as important kind of show up that period, that age I'm

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 24:54
so living it? Um, yes, peer influence is tremendously important right now. And the music is a great example. One of the dares in the book is dare to, like, evaluate song lyrics, or dare to really think critically about song lyrics. And we included that because it's something that I do with Jack all the time. I tell him that if he's mature enough to listen to it, then he's mature enough to talk about it. And so the good thing is, on your iPhone, you know, the lyrics are right there, so you can pull them up at any time and walk through them. And we've found this to be uncomfortable and super helpful. You know, it can be uncomfortable, but it doesn't really have to be. I mean, it should. It can just be very matter of fact, right, right. So I remember the first time we did this, Jack was in the car singing along to a song. The words were saying one thing, and I knew he just didn't get it. He didn't understand what he was really saying. He just liked the beat, and that's fine. So we pulled up the lyrics and we we walked through them, line by line, and we talked about the positive aspects of the song, like how the singer had overcome, you know, major obstacles in his life, like poverty and violence. And we also talked about the negative aspects of the song, you know, where they're objectifying women and treating them like property. And at a call to man, we know that, just like you said, all of our kids are hearing, are hearing a lot of different things, and so we're not of the mind that we want to advocate for censorship, right? Sure, we want to teach our young people to be conscious consumers, because a lot of the time they're listening and enjoying something, but they are not. They're not understanding how it could, how that content could affect their beliefs and their actions. So we just want to create entry points to talk about these things as often as we can.

Casey O'Roarty 26:45
Yeah, I appreciate that. And when I look back to what I was listening to in high school, it was the late 80s, and it was hair bands, and there was plenty of drug references and a lot of objectifying of women, it just seemed to be couched more in metaphor. Now it's just straight up, you know, right in your face. And so I think that's a bit jarring. I love what you're saying as using music as an opener. We got to the point where I would say to the kids, do you know what this song's about? And they would both look at me and say, Don't ruin it. Don't ruin it. Mom, and I'd be like, Well, I think it's like you said. I think it's important, you know, if you're singing along. And one of the other things that I've been known to say to my kids too is, how would it feel to be hanging out with this guy and have him just talking, you know, speaking these lyrics, just in, like, a casual kind of way, would that be somebody that you'd want to hang out with? And again, you know, I do get the eye rolls, but it's also, I also get a lot of good conversation, and I know that it's, it's, it's not like an hour long lecture from mom, it's just a simple seed planting of like, Hmm, okay, moving on, yeah, right across

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 28:02
all genres. It's in movies, it's in video games, like it's not, you know, it's everywhere. So we need to be lifting that out as often as we can.

Ted Bunch 28:11
And another one of the dares that's focused on exactly what you what we're talking about here is dare to think about how women are treated in video games, right? So this isn't going to we're not saying stop playing the video games, but let's develop some critical lens around how women are being treated in the same way that we would around lyrics. So yeah, so the book really taps into those things as well. And

Casey O'Roarty 28:34
you mentioned going upstream, right to solve problems. I think that this is there's something, there's definitely something here, because, you know, consumers are informing the creative people that are putting things out into the world. And I think the more that we can be having these conversations, you know, there's messaging to those people that are making videos and creating music, and you know, they want to serve the people, right? And so as society shifts into this place of changing the way that we view men and women and gender and race and equity and all the things you know, my my hope would be that the that society would follow, even though I'm sure it's like glacial pace. What is healthy manhood? When we talk about healthy masculinity, how do the two of you define that, and what does it look like in as you speak? Of it from a call to men.

Ted Bunch 29:37
So healthy masculinity. Healthy manhood is really when we're as a as men, where we're being fully respectful when we're I mean our vision, our vision at a call to man. Maybe I should start here is to create a world where all men and boys are loving and respectful, and all women and girls and those in the margins of the margins are valued and safe. So healthy manhood is first of all understanding our role and the privilege that we have right as far as being men in a male dominated society, there's a certain privilege we have, and how that gets passed down to our boys, and being able to stand up against things that are gendered and that are sexist. We want to not to do anything or say anything that denigrates women, girls or anyone in the LGBTQ, transgender, non conforming community. We want to be able to to to openly express how we're feeling our emotions. And one of the things when you brought up the issue around health. I was thinking of, you know, the importance of mental health. And the Book of Dares really is a prevention tool as well. Because when we look at what men in these rigid notions of manhood that men are forced to live in by these social norms that we're in by that collective socialization, we're dying six as men. We're dying about six years earlier than women, where suicide is three and a half times higher among men than among women. It's also higher around among male youth than it is female youth. And when you look at the youth in the queer community, it's even higher because they are, have no sense of belonging in this construct of this man box. And the man box is a heterosexual construct, and the glue that keeps a man box together is homophobia and heterosexism. So what the dares does is really taps into as we've been speaking about, articulate how you're feeling, what you're experiencing, share what's going on with you, because what that's going to do is allow you to have language and of a way of expressing yourself, so that when we grow into young young adulthood, when our boys do, they're not experiencing the high rates of anxiety and depression that they're experiencing now, the suicidal ideation will go down because they're able to express things differently that they're they're not going to as they become older. Men die six years women, six years earlier than women, because they're going to go to the doctor as a prevention method instead of an intervention method, because we often wait too long, and often men are doing high risk behaviors and and because that's one way we prove that we're men. And that's where the dares became, you know, kind of like we, we spun it on its head around there's being high risk, and made it positive challenges. But that's one of the reasons why boys were so interested so and I'll let I'm sure Anna Marie has some things to add there as well. No, I

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 32:38
mean, I would just say that, you know, we're using culture to affect culture. We're using the man box culture, like Ted said, and turning it on his head, to where we're making it attractive to boys, but also very meaningful, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 33:00
Well, and I love, you know, like I said, I have a son and I have a daughter and, and it's interesting, too, to be really honest, around my own conditioning there and how, you know, I would like to think that I treat my kids the same way. And I don't, right, I especially as they got into ages where they were out in the world, and maybe, like you said, Ted, meeting people at the movies. You know, when my daughter went into middle school and said, I'm going to the movies with a boy, there was a very different experience for me than my son saying the same thing at the same age, and so the conditioning runs deep, and I think it runs deep for all of us. I'm curious as to your work with women as well. And I know Brene Brown talks about this when in one of her books, you know she's all about vulnerability, and I remember a story that she tells of a husband and wife and their daughter meeting her and the husband reluctantly, saying, you know, you keep telling us to be vulnerable, but my women don't want me vulnerable. They want me to be the prince charming and valiantly saving the day and and what do you think about that tension, right? And I've experienced it as well in my own relationships, where I am all about vulnerability, and I can recognize that it is uncomfortable when my sweet, strong husband is in his emotions and I and that like so uncomfortable that I don't want him to be there, but definitely uncomfortable just for me to be aware of that. What are your thoughts about that? I know it's a total side tangent. No,

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 34:51
it's good. I think you've hit on an important point. I think what we have to recognize, as Ted said, is that we're all swimming in this one. Better, right? Yeah. So they're just as I stood in that gymnasium and heard TED talk about them, those are not concepts that I had ever heard or thought about before, until I heard him talk about it, you know. And so we all have to be thinking critically about how we've been socialized to view gender and and take away the good things about that, and then really step into challenge and push back about the ones that are destructive for for our for our children and for our society.

Ted Bunch 35:33
And if I can add that, when you've brought up about your daughter and safety for her, Mm, hmm, this ties back directly to men, because why are we afraid for our daughters? Right? When I ask fathers, I'll I'll ask dads, if they've ever when their child, if they if they have a daughter, and it will, we'll be in a room of 100 100 men, and half of them will have children, and half of them will have daughters, and they'll raise their hand, and I'll ask them to keep their hand up if another man in their life or in their community went once he saw his daughter, the person's daughter, whether she was two years old or 16, did that man Say something like you better get your shotgun ready. 100% of the hands stay up, yep, so and so. That's not about our daughters, right? That's about our sons. But that man is saying is, you better get your shotgun ready, because it ain't safe out here for her. No, we don't teach our boys to value or respect her. That's what all of that is saying. So it really gets to us. Remember, we talked in the beginning about most men don't do those things that we that are harming women, but, you know, there's a lot of harm to women, but the majority of men don't do those things, but we're silent about those that do, and we have to speak to that silence. So those different rules we have for our male child and our female child is because of the danger that our female children are in and our gender non conforming children are in based on how we're raising our boys. And that's where the healthy manhood message in the for from a call to man and in the Book of Dares makes a huge difference. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 37:24
Oh man, I could talk to the two of you. I have so many more little openings that I want to dive into with you. I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing and to know you. And hopefully you'll come back and talk to my community more in a deeper dive on all of this, if you could leave listeners with one step to take towards opening their boys up to these conversations. Because remember, my people, you know, most of the listeners have boys and girls a little bit older, you know, in middle and high school, and some of them might not be so open. So I would love to know if you in your experience, in your work, what's one tip that you could offer that would open up these conversations, including your book, right? So that people can take that away and integrate it today with their boys,

Ted Bunch 38:14
I'll jump in. So with our boys. I think that what we can do, and with the certainly the Book of Dares, for those a little bit younger than, say, high school, that we have, as I mentioned, have high schoolers who really have been enjoying the book, is to really as as current events come up, as things come up, as you see what they're watching on Netflix, or what you might be watching on Netflix, and ask them to sit down and watch something with you that is maybe focused on women, or done by a woman director, or that's about a group that's different from your group, and have conversation with them. Ask them about the things that are happening that you just see on television. What do you think about that you know? Treat them like an adult, right? Because they're moving into that and have real thoughtful conversations with them. What I also find helpful is to not have such formal conversations. Well, okay, we're going to sit down and talk about this now, right? But you know, when you're driving to an activity, just bring something up that you might have overheard him say two days ago, and you didn't want to address it then, but you're going to address it now. Or when you're saying good night to the younger boy and you're turning off the light, you know might ask him a question where it's not so in your face. I think that that that those are all ways that can can be successful, and to have community influencers who that young man might look up to, for instance, maybe like sports, and he might like, let's say Steph Curry. Well, Steph Curry now has a book club. You know, you know when, no,

Casey O'Roarty 39:49
I did not know that. Yeah. Like,

Ted Bunch 39:51
let's see what's going on with Steph Curry's book club. When we, when we look at some of the other influencers for around mental health, for instance, my. Michael Phelps, you see his commercials around mental health when that comes up like you can say, hey, you know, a lot of men experience anxiety and depression. You know, do you ever feel that way? Or maybe even share sometimes I feel down because of x, y and z. So those are ways that we can engage our boys and young men. Anna Marie, I

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 40:20
love all those ideas, Ted. Thank you. And you know, as I think about like summing up this conversation and how and the conversations that we want to start, and what we really want to get out of these conversations is that we recognize that our our boys are not taught to value our girls experience in the same way they're taught to value their own and so what we want to do with the book is raise our boys to value our girls experiences just as much as as they do their own. It's not that their experience is more important. That's not what the book is about, but we want we know that we can get to meaningful equity by having conversations like this, so that I would just encourage your your listeners to not shy away from those opportunities.

Casey O'Roarty 41:07
Oh, yeah, I'm always encouraging and challenging my people to stretch into that opportunity. They're all around every day there's an opportunity to have a short, meaningful conversation. So love both of those invitations, and my business is called joyful courage. I love to end my interviews with the question of, What does joyful courage mean to you? And Anna Marie, why don't you start Sure?

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 41:36
I think that you know in the context of this conversation, it's authenticity. And for two reasons, I think it requires joyful courage to be your authentic self, but I also think authenticity will foster joyful courage in your life. Love

Casey O'Roarty 41:50
that. Thank you. What about you, Ted?

Ted Bunch 41:53
I love that too. I love the question as well. You know, I'm inspired by the joyful courage that I see in our youth, you know, and I think about my children, and I think about my son, who came out as gay when he was 15, he's now 18, and the courage that it took for that and the joy that he is experiencing embracing his full self. And also, you know, when I see Anne Marie's son Jack, and wanting to be the best young man, he can be in understanding all of who he is, being a white male and 12 year old with certain privilege, just as my children, while they're well, while four of the six are black, I have two white children as well that they have privilege as well. But there's a race privilege, and there's a class privilege, and there's a and there's a gender privilege. And then I think of, you know Amanda Gorman. So I guess it's the I guess it's the next generation that really is giving me joyful courage. Amanda Gorman, of course, was the poet in the inauguration this year who inspired so amazing,

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 42:54
amazing.

Casey O'Roarty 42:57
Yes, love that beautiful. So just as we close, let us know, where can we find you find the book and follow the work that you're doing. Please.

Anna Marie Johnson Teague 43:08
Everyone go to a call to man.org you can find information on the book there. Of course, you can purchase the book at all major retailers. We encourage folks to support independent and black owned bookstores when they can. And we hope that all of your listeners will follow us at a call to men on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. Stay hooked up with us. We've got lots of free programming for parents, lots of great resources. So we would love to support you all.

Casey O'Roarty 43:37
Yay. Yay. Thank you so much to both of you for the work that you do and for taking time to share it with me and my community.

Ted Bunch 43:46
Thank you so much.

Casey O'Roarty 43:54
Yes. All right, thanks again for listening to the joyful courage podcast. If you feel inspired, moved, stoked, empowered, and you haven't already, do me a favor and head over to Apple podcast and please leave a five star review. We are working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen and found by even more parents. Thank you so much for taking a few minutes to do that. Also you can follow joyful underscore courage on Instagram and Facebook. We love connecting with you on social media, and don't forget about that living joyful courage membership wait list. Head over to joyful courage.com/l. J, c, to put yourself on the wait list to hear more about the upcoming membership offer that will be unfolding soon. Yay. Love you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,

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