Eps 264: Michelle Icard Shares about the Crucial Conversations to Have With Our Middle Schoolers

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

When I hear Joyful Courage I think it has to do with being brave without worrying about the outcome, just for the moment of the bravery. Like the joy of taking the leap or asking someone out without worrying how it turns out.

 

Where to find Michelle

Website | Instagram | 14 Talks By Age Fourteen Book

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Music. Hey friends, welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host. Casey overdi, positive discipline trainer, parent coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview, such a great interview. Oh my gosh. I had the best time talking to this guest about her super important and helpful work. I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up in our conversation again. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you and grateful that what I put out to you matters, and I'm so stoked to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being a part of this community. Enjoy the show.

Hi, friends. My guest today is Michelle ikerd. Michelle is a member of the Today Show parenting team and NBC News learn. The author of 14 talks by age 14 and middle school makeover. Her work was featured, has been featured in The Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, the Christian Science Monitor, Redbook time and People Magazine, her leadership curriculum for middle schoolers Athena's path and heroes pursuit have been implemented at schools across the US, and her summer camp curriculum is offered at more than 20 camps each summer. She lives with her family in Charlotte, North Carolina, and I'm so excited to welcome her. Hi Michelle. Welcome to the podcast.

Michelle Icard 1:59
Hello. Thank you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:01
Yeah. Can you share a little bit about your journey of doing what you do?

Michelle Icard 2:05
Sure I have been working with middle schoolers and their families for 16 ish years. 16 plus my kids are 18 and 20. So I started doing this when they were two and four. And it started because I was working for a huge consulting firm that blew up, and so 80,000 people were suddenly without a job, and I was one of them, and I had a background in teaching and was certified to teach, but was seven months pregnant with my second child at the time, and thought, no one's going to hire me. I don't know what my next move is, so I thought, well, I can teach in some capacity, and I started a tutoring business at that time, and I was working largely with kids who were in middle school. God bless you for that. So true. People have that reaction, yeah, and I was hired mostly to be an academic coach or an organizational coach, because, you know, the wheels kind of come off the cart when kids get to middle school and they don't turn their work in, and they don't know how to study, everybody

Casey O'Roarty 3:03
starts freaking out too. Freak out session.

Michelle Icard 3:07
That's it. And so parents were like, please come help. And that was my intention. But as I developed relationships with the kids I was working with, they started talking to me more and more about what was happening with them socially. So I was hearing stories about, you know, not knowing where to sit in the cafeteria because their friends weren't talking to them anymore, or, you know, feeling pressure to be a certain way, and they were just confiding in me. So that's when I started really diving deep into what happens with kids this age in terms of their development. And I created my first curriculum for kids, which was a leadership program for kids this age, and it just blossomed from that to the curriculum in schools and then to the books. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 3:50
have you always been a writer, not professional?

Michelle Icard 3:55
I have always loved writing. I've always reading, and even in my professional job at the consulting firm. I've always been a teacher, so I would say, like, Hey, this is a cool program, but I think it needs a training manual, or, you know, I'd like to develop something to explain this to people. So I've always been pulled that way. What

Casey O'Roarty 4:12
are the pillars when you're writing a leadership curriculum or the ones that you've written, what kind of is the foundation of what you want to offer with those curriculums?

Michelle Icard 4:22
Well, initially, what I did in developing them was I thought about, okay, what are some of the core components of being a good leader? And really the concept of these programs are that you can be the leader of your own life. So it's you at an age when you're really feel like following the crowd. And it's about figuring out who you are, getting to know yourself, and getting really comfortable with making decisions for yourself. So I looked, you know, I did a lot of research into that, and into confidence building and self esteem and all that kind of stuff. And then I took what I learned in my research and tried to wrap each lesson in a middle school rapper, you know. So if knowing. You fit in in a community is a big part of self esteem. Then I wanted to really dissect what does a middle school community look like, and help kids kind of think about that pragmatically instead of emotionally

Casey O'Roarty 5:12
well. And it feels so less daunting to think about leadership as in, I'm the leader of my own life versus I am the leader of everyone I know, although some of us might want to wear that crown some of the time. You know, not everybody is. I'm just thinking of my own kids, and I've got one that definitely could slide into that role, and the other one who's like, oh heck no, I don't want to be don't give me the mic. Don't give me the megaphone. I don't want to be the leader, but when you put it in the context of the leader of her life, the designer of her life, like that's one of the things I say. I've said this on the podcast before. Somebody once asked me, you know, what keeps you awake at night when it comes to parenting? And I just want my kids to know they are always the designers of their life. And that's what I'm hearing you say that you're you know that work that you've done around curriculum and leadership is really about that, and what a great opportunity for middle schoolers to get that lesson. That's it,

Michelle Icard 6:11
exactly. And I've never heard that designer of my life. I'm guessing that you coined that phrase, and it's

Casey O'Roarty 6:16
beautiful. We can just say that I did Yes,

Michelle Icard 6:20
trademark real quick.

Casey O'Roarty 6:21
I'm sure somebody else said it before, but, yeah, it's

Michelle Icard 6:25
lovely, and that is the intention behind it, really, to get these kids at a critical age, thinking that they can make their own choices.

Casey O'Roarty 6:33
I love that, because they always are right. They're always making their own choices, but broadening their perspective around, you know, like you're influencing your experience intentionally or unintentionally. So yes, how about we pay attention to that? Okay, we're gonna talk about your new book. This is a new book, right? 14. Talks by age 14,

Michelle Icard 6:51
it is brand spanking new. It came out Tuesday, so it's two days old. It's

Casey O'Roarty 6:55
two days old. It's just an infant. Oh my gosh. Well, two days ago, I got it in the mail, and I've been perusing it and Michelle, this book is gold. I work with so many parents who really want the script and need that guidance and that stepping stone into tough conversations. So tell me, what was it that inspired you to write this particular book.

Michelle Icard 7:23
Thank you. Well, I'm glad that you got it and that you're enjoying it, and that's entirely my intention, that it provides the How to part that I think is often missing a lot of times, you know, we read articles or books or watch documentaries or whatever it may be, and say, Man, that's important, yeah. But then taking it a step further to how do I take some action on that is the really hard and scary part. So one of the things that I do is I run a private Facebook group for parents, and it's called less stressed middle school parents. And they're like, you know, people from all over the country and all over the world, and they all have very universal angst

Casey O'Roarty 7:59
over collective journey. It's a collective journey.

Michelle Icard 8:03
So I see this topic come up over and over again, which is whatever it may be, oh no, I caught my kid vaping or, Oh no, my child is zoom bombing kids in other classes and saying bad things, or, Oh no, whatever it may be. How do I talk to them about this? They're going to freak out when I try to bring it up, but I know I need to say something, and I don't know what to say. So what do I do? So hearing that over and over again was really what sort of lit the flame for this book, and I began to just think about before kids get into high school, when the world really opens up, when choices get a little bit harder, situations can even get a bit more dangerous. What is it that I hope every parent will talk to their child about? And it's not 14 really specific conversations, it's 14 big life lessons or concepts that I want kids to kind of grapple with a little bit before they get into high school. So the relationship is developed between the parent and child, and they've practiced having these conversations, and then when they're in high school, then they know they have a comfort level. And when things get harder and the stakes get higher, they know they can go to their parent and talk,

Casey O'Roarty 9:10
yeah, well, and it is designed those 14 concept like, I mean, I'm looking in the table of contents right now, so you have conversations about independence and friendship, fairness, how to take criticism, money, sexuality, reputations. But inside each of these chapters, I just have to spoil it for the listeners. Oh my gosh, you guys. Michelle, I love that. It's so current, like it's so 2020, like you said, conversations around vaping, conversations around nudes and being asked for nudes, which is like crazy to me, that it's more likely than not that our daughters will be asked, you know, to I mean, I remember hearing about it and then asking my daughter about it when she was in middle school, and she was like, yeah, it happens. It's happened. Oh yeah. And I was laughing before I hit record because I couldn't put the book. Down like I was eating meals and like perusing and the kids were watching TV, and I had it in my lap, because I just kept finding all these conversations. And I was like, yes, Michelle, thank you. Poke and stick tattoos. Anybody know about those? Google it or just buy the book? Michelle has a whole conversation example about how to talk about it, even if it's after the fact. This is just such a great resource for parents. And I really appreciate the kind of the formula, the acronym that you use for each conversation, I think is a really simple, pointed way of thinking about coming into some of these conversations, because, on one hand, yes, what if my kid freaks out because I want to talk about this, or what I hear mostly is like, Oh, my kid won't talk about this. So I appreciate that you kind of navigate both of those things in some of these conversations. But talk about how you came up with the acronym brief and what it stands for.

Michelle Icard 10:58
So brief is my vehicle for getting you there. And really, as you said, it's an acronym, and I love that. It also is a reminder that these conversations can be really short. I think we put a lot of undue pressure on ourselves as parents, and think I've got to get this one just right, and I've only got one shot at this. And really, I think kids appreciate it, and parents do better when they have lots of little talks instead of the big check the box conversation.

Casey O'Roarty 11:26
Yeah, it would be so much easier if that's all it took. Oh, I

Michelle Icard 11:29
know I could have written a list instead of a book. Just check these boxes and you're done, and your kid would follow the script, and it would be great. But no, it doesn't work that way. So brief is five steps, and I don't want parents to feel like they have to reinvent the wheel every single time, whether it's the tattoo thing or the vape thing or the pornography thing. I think having a pattern to follow makes it so much softer. And as I mentioned, you know, working with all these parents around the world, they talk about how getting started is the hardest part. So I think because of that, what often happens is nervous parents start at the end of the conversation, and so they think, okay, I might have 30 seconds before my kid tunes me out or rolls their eyes or yells back, so I'm just gonna jump in the deep end and cram some information or advice down their throat really quickly. And of course, that doesn't work at all. So the brief acronym B stands for begin peacefully. And really, what I mean by that is, like, with a little bit of gentle curiosity about the topic itself, and not pointedly about your kid. So if it's about vaping, for example, instead of saying, like, hey, we need to talk about vape, I want to know if you've vaped before, and if any of your friends vaped. And can you give me their parents phone numbers? You know you're not starting off with a crash. It's more like, Hey, what are kids saying about vape these days? Do they think parents are getting it right or wrong? Like, are we overreacting? So it's just a gentle curiosity. The R is for relate to your kid, and that's just an opportunity for you to demonstrate that you're on the same team and you're not having this conversation because you're trying to bust them, or because you're suspicious, you know? So it could be something where you just relate to them, like, Yeah, I know it's kind of weird to talk to your parent about this, or it must be confusing when you aren't sure if you're getting all the right information. Just something empathetic. Can

Casey O'Roarty 13:17
I tell you what I love about this step relate to your child. I think it's also a great place, because I come from a positive discipline background, and we talk a lot about the importance of relationship, and I feel like when we step into that relating, that's really what we're doing, is remembering that ultimately, we want to maintain relationship with this kid, and what better way to do it than energetically, sitting side by side and looking at the problem together. So I appreciate this step. I

Michelle Icard 13:45
love the way you said that. That's perfect. Yeah. Okay, so then, yeah, you're almost halfway through at this point. So then I is interview for data, and that sounds clinical, and I want it to sound clinical, because what I don't want it to be is an emotional interrogation. So this is where you get to ask some questions. And really, again, it's that gentle curiosity. It's like, what do you know about this? What do you feel about this? Not what have you done? You know, it's more just, I want to make sure that we're on the same page here, so I'm just asking questions. And I say in the book, you really want to act like a district attorney who has nothing riding on this case, like you are not emotionally invested at all. You're just gathering some facts, right? And the more

Casey O'Roarty 14:29
you can really work towards embodying that. I mean, obviously you're emotionally invested in your kids, and the more curious that you can truly be beyond just curious language. I think it's so powerful, because our kids can vibe, yes, yes. I mean middle school, they're starting to get savvy. By High School, forget it. If you're coming in with an agenda, they can smell it a mile away. So I love that, and

Michelle Icard 14:54
this really does take practice. So at first you might feel like I'm faking this interest. I. Making this curiosity. But when you practice and you get something from them, and you realize, like, wow, I'm mining for gold here, and I just got a nugget, it really draws it out of you. And you become better at it, it becomes much more natural. So don't worry, afraid at first, you're like, I am robotic. I

Casey O'Roarty 15:14
don't get it, yeah.

Well, and I love too, that this opportunity lets us dispel assumptions. I feel like sometimes we come into these conversations with our own assumptions about what our kids think, what they've done, what they haven't done, and interviewing to collect the data. And I like that kind of technicality of it that feel feels very much like, Oh, I get to actually get a clearer picture instead of just the one that I've created in my mind. And you have to be open, right, open to having it be different than what you assume, too. So I love that

Michelle Icard 15:53
so true. And I think we often assume, but first, my kid is a sociopath. Oh my gosh, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 15:59
dead in a ditch? Yes, exactly.

Michelle Icard 16:03
Okay, so we have begun peacefully. You've related to your kid, you've interviewed, gotten some information. The second to last step is E in brief, and you're gonna just echo what you hear. And this is so simple. It's anybody who's ever been to a therapist or seen a therapist on TV, they know how this works. It's where you say like, Oh, it sounds like you're saying, or I'm hearing this, or it sounds like you might be feeling and this is key for two reasons. One, it's a time to just check your own comprehension. And two, there are some real language barriers. I mean, the concept of this book is built around the idea that we need to learn a different way to talk with kids this age, and there are language barriers that come down to vocabulary. You know, where a parent may be saying you're not allowed to date, and a kid is thinking like, well, dating, that's what happens after you've been in a relationship for two years. We're just hanging out. That's just where you fool around. Or, you know, yes, it's really different vocabulary. So you want to check to show you've been listening, you want to check for comprehension and also for vocab. Here, I

Casey O'Roarty 17:04
love that, and it's respectful. It's just as respectful to say, look, I'm going to show you how much I've been listening, and I care so much about you that I want to make sure that I'm getting it right. Like, I just love that.

Michelle Icard 17:16
And kids this age, if you get it wrong, will take probably a little bit of pleasure. And I think earned pleasure in like, telling you, no, no, no, it's not that. It's this. And I think that's really validating for them, because we don't often treat them as experts. And so for them to get the chance to say No, for me, it means this, or this is how I feel, like you're not hearing me, right? I think that's really important. Yeah, me too. And then you reach the final step, which is F in brief, and it stands for feedback. And this is where most parents begin the Okay, I've noticed a problem. I'm going to give you advice or suggestion or a limit or whatever it is, but now you've kind of earned your space here, and your kid isn't ready to storm off, because they know you're really listening and you're open and you're curious, and then you get to say, All right, well, here's what I think you know. And there will be points in your relationship where you have to be the boundary setter, and there will be points where you can just say, Wow, I think I heard wrong, or I misinterpreted that, or I didn't see it from that point of view. So it's just an opportunity at the end to kind of wrap things up well, and

Casey O'Roarty 18:21
I love that it comes after this whole unfolding and connecting around whatever the topic is, because we then realize, like, is this a play? Do I need to be worried? Do I need to be ever clear in my, you know, in sharing what our family values are? Do I need to draw a line in the sand. Like, what do I actually need to do here? I mean, I remember my mom saying to me, all this, like, out of nowhere, If I ever find out that you smoked, or that anyone that you're hanging out with is smoking, you're going to be grounded till you're 35 Yeah. Guess who started smoking in college? Yeah. Like, not really effective, mom. But anyway, I really appreciate that. So again, brief, begin peacefully, relate to your kid interview to collect data, echo what you hear feedback for everybody that's listening. It's so powerful. And again, Michelle has gone through so many different possible scenarios and brought that formula straight into the book. So even if you're like, Okay, well, I get it in theory, but what does it sound like in actual conversation? Now I have to ask you, are these actual conversations? These

Michelle Icard 19:28
are based on actual conversations, but that's just based on my work over the past 16 years of working with kids these age. And I really did I know your kid's not gonna follow a script. They're gonna completely deviate and do unexpected things and say unexpected things. But I did try to write this as realistically as possible, so that, you know, there are times when it feels a little bit like pulling teeth, and times when the parent in the book is a little surprised at what the kid says. So you're right. It's just a bunch of opportunities to see it in action, and hopefully. Give parents some comfort that they

Speaker 1 20:01
can do it too well. And I always notice, you know, anytime I talk about concepts or even leading classes around parenting, there's always someone who's like, Yeah, well, what does it look like in real life? And I just really feel like you have offered a resource for all the yeah butters, and that's hard to do, I mean, but truly, it's really so. I mean, I know I keep saying the same thing over and over, but I love this. I

Michelle Icard 20:29
love to hear it. Yeah, no, I'm really glad. Yeah, tell

Casey O'Roarty 20:33
me about the conversation crashers that you include in each chapter.

Michelle Icard 20:38
I kind of approach this two ways I do in the beginning of the book, the first three chapters are foundational. So it's stuff that I think you just need to know about your kid at this age, and it's general. And there is a chapter that just is sort of a overarching. Here are some communication techniques that lots of parents, myself included, have fallen back on that don't work, particularly for kids this age, because of where they are developmentally. So I go over those, and I'm happy to give you a couple examples of those in a second. But then the other thing that I do is, for each topic, at the end of each chapter, I give specific conversations to that very topic. So like, if you are talking about sexuality, please don't say this particular thing on this subject that's gonna, you know, send your kid screaming. So generally, the types of things that kids this age just recoil at would be making assumptions. You know, developmentally around age 11, what your kid is doing is, I call it the middle school construction project, but they are beginning to build the three things they need to become an adult, and that's an adult brain, an adult body and an adult identity. And the identity piece is what drives so much of this language barrier, because language is what we use to tie groups of people together, and your tweens job around age 11 is to figure out how to break ties apart, right? So they have to figure out how to become independent, and we want that, but we don't realize when they're doing it that we forget that

Casey O'Roarty 22:09
we want it, we don't want it, we want it. We don't want it. We want it, and we don't want

Michelle Icard 22:13
it. We want it to look a very specific way. We want it to look like doing chores,

Casey O'Roarty 22:19
developing independence, do your chores. There you go.

Michelle Icard 22:21
Yes, exactly, but it really often manifests as, you know, talking back or dressing inappropriately or however it looks. Yeah. So all that to say that some of the things that they don't like to hear are when we assume that we know how they feel. So saying something like you're gonna regret that later you're really gonna regret that no one likes to be told how they'll feel in the future, but particularly for a kid this age, I can just feel my inner 13 year old digging my heels in and being like I will prove to you that I can make this choice and will not regret it the way you predict, right?

Casey O'Roarty 22:54
And no longer is it even about the choice. It's about how they're feeling about you. I think that's so fascinating. That's right,

Michelle Icard 23:01
a couple other conversation crashers that kids this age don't like. They don't like when parents are vague. So a lot of times, parents are like, I don't want to put too much on my kids radar, you know, particularly when it comes to talking about things like sex or maybe drinking or, you know, whatever parents will say. You know, they'll use euphemisms a lot of times. And I understand the need to be protective, and certainly we don't want to be developmentally beyond where our kids are, but by the time your kid is going into middle school, they're going to hear it all pretty much. And so I encourage parents not to be vague about stuff like this, to really be specific. And there are studies that show that kids want the same thing

Casey O'Roarty 23:39
well. And my good friend and podcast favorite, Amy Lang, would say, by the time your kids are going into middle school, they need to know all the mechanics of sex. So, Oh, for sure, yeah, we're just putting that out there for everyone. Yes. And I love this, don't be vague. And then another one is, don't be indirect about what you need. I am the queen of this, and my son is like, Mom, what do you want me to do? Just say it, because I want to just kind of offer a little nudge and have him be like, Oh, you want me to get up and empty the dishwasher right now, okay? But he's like, if you want me to do it, just tell me to do it.

Michelle Icard 24:10
That's exactly right. And I think we've heard this for a long time in, you know, from marital books or relationship experts will say, you know, you're not a mind reader, so let your partner know if there's something that you want or need, and we don't do that with our kids. And I'm like, You, this is really my Achilles heel, and I tend to get passive aggressive about it. Oh, yeah. Like, I nudge and I nudge, or I drop a hint. And then finally, I'm like, Well, fine, I guess if you don't ever want to take your stuff up off the stairs, then I guess I just won't bother buying new things. You know, then I knew I liked you. My child is never going to be like, Oh, wow, mom. Now that you say it like that, I completely get it. Thanks. I will begin to carry my things up off the stairs. I can see how annoying that is, right? I never get the reaction I want from being passive aggressive. So that is a conversation crasher,

Casey O'Roarty 24:55
yeah? For sure. Can I ask you about one more? Yeah? Because I. Love this one. And I actually have a client who falls into this with her child. Don't be tricked into proving yourself. Yeah, talk about that.

Michelle Icard 25:08
I think that kids this age, they're undergoing some really fascinating and amazing brain development, and one of the things that's happening is that they are making a shift from hypothetical thinking, or from concrete thinking to hypothetical thinking. And so what that means is that they have gone from being like everything is black and white, this is right, this is wrong, to lots of gray area, and they become like little attorneys, where they constantly want to debate things and figure out what's malleable and what's not you as the parent, on your heels a lot of times, trying to get you to prove that you are right. What you want is right, what you're asking is correct, what you need is accurate, and you don't have to fall into that. I mean, I'm not advocating for the because I said so approach necessarily, but I think that there's this great desire from a kid that age to get you to prove it, and you don't have to prove yourself

Casey O'Roarty 26:01
right. So for the example, might be, you know, the kids need to put their phones away at eight o'clock, and the middle schooler says, Well, you don't have to put your phone away. So why do I have to put my phone away? That's right. So if we're not gonna say because I said, So what are some suggestions that you have of how to navigate? How do we extricate ourselves from that child who is like, No, tell me why. Tell me why. Tell me why. I

Michelle Icard 26:23
mean, I think you can just say because that's the rule, you know, great. That's the rule in our family. And we have different rules for different ages and different circumstances, and this is what we think keeps you safest and healthiest. You need a certain amount of break from screen time. You need a certain amount of, you know, downtime before going to bed. It affects your sleep habits, and that's it. And, you know, it's not up for debate, but if you want to talk about something within the realm of possibility, maybe you're frustrated because you don't feel like you get enough time to text with your friends, and I'm saying you have to put your phone away at a certain time. Let's talk about how to get you what you need, but within the bounds of what our rules are in the family well,

Casey O'Roarty 27:00
and I love that, because I often think of our kids, you know, they'll cast, like, I think of like a fishing pole, and they'll cast the hook, and we're so good at grabbing the hook, right? And so, like, why don't you have to put your phone away? There's that hook? Well, I'm an adult and right? Versus like, I see the hook. But what this really is about is it's hard for you to put your phone away, so let's talk about that. So I love that invitation to recognize and it's something I talk about here on the podcast as well, that iceberg metaphor of it's not about what's at the tip, it's about what's happening underneath. So that's right.

Michelle Icard 27:32
Again, you're mining for gold, and you might find a really good little nugget if you keep being curious about

Casey O'Roarty 27:37
it. What is your favorite of all these chapters, all these talks, what was the most fun one for you to write about?

Michelle Icard 27:45
My favorite chapter is the one on independence, and it comes early in the book. I think it's chapter five, and I love it because, as you could tell, I'm really into this identity development piece, this part where kids are kind of separating from their parents, and the independence chapter is about how kids do that, and it's primarily two ways. So in times when we are not in a pandemic, exploring the world is a big one. So you know, kids this age love to go to the mall with a gang of friends and not have parents follow them around, or ride their bikes without anyone around and explore the neighborhood. And this sort of exploration of their world becomes really important to them. And then the sort of yin and yang of this is that they also isolate. They go in their room and they cocoon, and they don't come out for a very long time. And so both are ways that they are expressing and exploring their way of being independent, and I'm just fascinated by that, and also kind of by how we as parents react to that in ways that can encourage it, and in ways that can make our kids feel bad about wanting to do that well. And

Casey O'Roarty 28:51
I love I'm looking at the conversation that you have mapped out about isolation, and just going back to listeners, the idea that you know, is this real? Could these be real conversations? There's a place where, in the relating to the kid wanting to get a TV, and the mom or the parent basically says, Oh, I could see how you'd want that, but that's not really great for your sleep, but I'm happy you love your room. And the kid's response is, thanks, bye. That's totally relatable.

Michelle Icard 29:24
Thank you. Yes, I do try to keep it real.

Casey O'Roarty 29:33
As people have read your book, and I know it just came out, but I'm guessing you had some testers, some early honors. What have they been the most surprised by?

Michelle Icard 29:41
I think what I'm hearing most from early readers is that they're comforted, you know, and I think we all feel so stressed out at this point. I mean, there are studies that show that being a parent of a middle schooler is like the loneliest and most stressful time of being a parent, and so I'm really happy that the book is providing. Them comfort in feeling like they're not alone, like their experiences in communicating with their kids are universal, and that they don't have to be perfect, they don't have to get it just right, and that there are ways to just incrementally improve that relationship and that communication. And

Casey O'Roarty 30:15
you know, that's one thing that shows up in the work that I do when parents want the script, and there's this assumption that just having the script is enough, and okay, great, I've said the thing, and now we're not going to have any problems. Right? If only, right, if only.

Michelle Icard 30:35
And truly, this is not about bubble wrapping your kid or about ensuring that they won't make mistakes. My hope with the book and with all the work that I do, is that it's really about developing a relationship with your kid and keeping the door open so that when mistakes happen and they will, Your kid is willing to come to you, right?

Casey O'Roarty 30:54
Because you've proven that you can handle the conversation, right? I love that you're not going to freak out, right? And speaking of freaking out, there is also an expectation, if you're gonna have these kinds of talks, there's, you know, when I think about parenting, I think of, it's like the lifelong personal growth and development workshop opportunity. It's like, oh, I didn't know I had issues until I had a child, and then all that's like, ready for therapy, ready for transformation workshops. Okay, let's go. There's a big expectation. I think that you know, you've got to have these conversations, and I think I'd love for you to speak into your own experience around this. I mean, I think we all want open, honest communication and relationships with our kids, and to be able to have these conversations with them, and it is not the easy road by any means. I mean, ignorance is bliss.

Michelle Icard 31:46
Ignorance is bliss until it's not. I think ignorance is until that moment that you realize the facade is cracking in a dangerous way, right? I didn't realize I had to talk to my kid about this, and now I see the nudes on the phone, right? You know. So I think it's blissful until things kind of shatter,

Casey O'Roarty 32:03
for sure, yeah, it's blissful until you catch them doing the mischief. That's right, but it's also, you know, it's not an easy road to hold space for these really open relationships with our kids, because sometimes these conversations are, yeah, I am curious, or Yeah, I did do that thing. Or, yeah, I'm planning on doing XYZ. And, you know, and us as parents to be able to sit inside of that space with our child without letting all that fear, without letting all that, you know, just the fear dead in a ditch, you know, prison. All the worst case scenarios show up in the mind, and then we get into that place of, like, I gotta shut this down. And then, you know, 14 talks by age 14, keeping it brief, goes right out the window, and we're right in those conversation crashers as well. Huh? You

Michelle Icard 32:53
bring up a really good point, which is, I don't want you to know everything about your kid. I really don't. I think that they deserve privacy. I never advocate that you should be reading every text that comes through, monitoring every, you know, walking into the room to make sure that they're not making out, you know, like, I don't think you need to be there for all these moments and know everything. So I don't want anyone to be thinking like, Oh, good. She gave me permission to be like, 100% integrated into their thoughts all the time. I want you to be like, separate from each other. It's more that I hope parents read the book and feel like it's a load off. You know, to know that, like I can be open to them. We can communicate. They'll tell me what they need me to know, yeah, but not the parts that I don't need to know, right? And they're pretty good judges of that. You know that I think you want them to come to you when they feel unsafe, when they're hurting really bad, you know, if they're thinking thoughts about self harm, you know you want them to come to you and know it's really safe. Yeah, for all of that, they don't have to tell you, Hey, I'm thinking about going to third base. What are your thoughts, right?

Casey O'Roarty 33:59
By the way? I mean, maybe not middle school, but third base happens in the teen years. Everyone like,

Michelle Icard 34:04
of course it does. Yes,

Speaker 1 34:07
I love that. I appreciate that, and I really like that. You explicitly just said, you know, this isn't about knowing everything, because you're right. And I also hear you saying that there is a level of trust. And I love talking about trust, because trust not so much. I trust you to never do anything stupid, which I realize stupid is a judgy word,

Michelle Icard 34:33
just between us, between you and me. But

Casey O'Roarty 34:35
it's really about I trust that you are gonna learn from your mistakes.

Michelle Icard 34:41
That's it. 100% I know that parents think, but I know better. I can spare them the hurt and the grief and the you know, the permanent record, whatever it may be, because I know better. But we know better because we were given the opportunity to experience and to learn. And our kids deserve that same opportunity, because that is how we learn. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 35:04
I love that. So what are some tools when you work with parents that you offer to kind of help them, you know, stay in a calm and aware and connected place so that they can have some of these hard conversations with their kids?

Michelle Icard 35:18
Well, I will share with you my kind of gold standard tip for talking to kids this age, and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you say and everything to do with how you look. So there was a really cool study that came out of McLean Hospital, which is one of Harvard's teaching hospitals, and a neurologist there was interested in facial expressions and how we interpret them. So she put adults through an MRI and hooked them up and then showed them photos of people's faces, and said, Can you just by looking at this person's face, tell me how they're feeling and just really basic emotions and adults could, 100% of the time identify accurately if someone felt scared or if they felt angry or if they felt happy, you know, all the basics. And then she put teenagers through, hooked them up to the MRI, showed them the same photos and asked them the same question, and teens got it wrong 50% of the time. So they would look at a person's face and incorrectly guess what that person was feeling. And they could tell, because they were hooked up to the MRI that the MRI that the teens were using a different part of their brain. They were using the emotional center of their brain, and not the prefrontal cortex that adults are using. So this leads to a great many disastrous conversations between parents and kids, because parents will say, like, I don't know what happened. My daughter came home from school. I asked her how her math test was, and she like, screamed at me, I don't know, even if gotten the grades, why are you so mad? And stormed off, and then the mom is left, like, what just happened? So my tip is, I call it having a botox brow, and I really want you to picture it. I need one. We don't we can fake it. Botox. Want to pretend you're a celebrity on a late night talk show and you've been so overly Botoxed you cannot crinkle your forehead. Just pretend.

Casey O'Roarty 37:06
I practice that in the mirror. Yeah, it's a hard

Michelle Icard 37:08
one. And do practice it in the mirror. Because whenever I give talks to groups of parents and I give this advice, I look out at a sea of like, wide eyed, crazy looking people. I'm like, you're not supposed to look like you've been caught, you're supposed to look really just neutral, neutral, like nothing on your face. And when you can start having that expression, when you talk to your kids, you'll find they open up so much more because they think you're not judging them, and they think you're not mad at them, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 37:36
well, and I've actually heard of a study. Maybe it's the same study. I watched a documentary about the teen brain that found boys more often than girls experience a neutral facial expression as hostile. Is that still current research, or is that old news?

Michelle Icard 37:54
I don't know that one, but I'm absolutely gonna be looking it up. That's so funny, because when I think about my two kids, and I have a boy and a girl, I can imagine my son at that age being like, what's wrong and meeting like nothing. I'm just totally relaxing.

Casey O'Roarty 38:08
My kids have told me that I'm yelling with my face. I'm very expressive, yeah.

Michelle Icard 38:15
So tweak it to your own kid. You know, you may have a kid who's like, but know that no matter what, at that age, they are not using the same part of the brain that we are to interpret, and so misinterpretation is a big issue.

Casey O'Roarty 38:28
That is huge. They're not using the same part of the brain, not only that, they're actually using the emotional part of the brain, right? Yeah, that's huge. So good. So I always end with this question, Michelle, and I'd love to pitch it to you, when you hear joyful courage, what does it mean to you when

Michelle Icard 38:46
I hear joyful courage? I think it has to do with being brave without worrying about the outcome, like just for the moment of the bravery, so like the joy of taking the leap or asking the person out, or, you know, whatever it may be, without worrying about how it turns out.

Casey O'Roarty 39:07
So great. Where can people find you and follow your work and get your new book? I expect everywhere that they sell books,

Michelle Icard 39:14
that's right. Everywhere they sell books, you can get the book. So your Indie bookshop, your Indie books online, you can go to Amazon. My publisher is Penguin Random House. You can go to their website for links to all these places, Target, wherever you go, or you order online. And then you can find me in a couple places. I have a website. Obviously everybody does, so it's just my full name, Michelle ikerd, and it's Michelle with two L's. And my last name is spelled like Icard, I c, a, r, d.com, and that same name is my instagram handle, so you can go there and see all my Botox brow expressions and what not to do. I do a little tutorial on there. Have a lot of tricks. How do we

Casey O'Roarty 39:54
make it stick? Though

Michelle Icard 39:57
you might need a prescription. Yeah. A lot of practice. Great. Can

Casey O'Roarty 40:03
you tell us the name of your Facebook group too?

Michelle Icard 40:05
Yeah, sure. So Facebook is less stressed middle school. Parents love it, okay?

Casey O'Roarty 40:09
And listeners, you know, all those links will be in the show notes. Thank you so much, Michelle. This was great. Thank you for coming on and talking to me.

Michelle Icard 40:17
It was a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 40:22
You all right, thanks again for listening. If you feel inspired and you haven't already done it, please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and leave a review. We're working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also follow joyful underscore courage on Instagram and Facebook. We love connecting with you on social media and as a member of the joyful courage community. Don't forget that you can access counseling for your teen and get 10% off your first month at teen counseling.com/jc. Teen, love you, love you Love you. Have a beautiful week. I'll be back next Monday with a brand new show. Thanks.

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