Eps 262: Supporting Our Teen’s Pathway to Higher Education with Dr. Pamela Ellis

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:03
CACE, Hello, friends. Welcome to another week of the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting. I am your host, Casey o'rourdy, I am a positive discipline trainer, a parent coach, and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I imperfectly raise my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Today's show is an interview show, and I encourage you to listen for how grit shows up as my guest and I tease things apart. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you, and I am grateful that what I put out to you, matters, and I'm so excited to keep it coming. Thank you for who you are and for being in the community. Enjoy the show.

Hi listeners. My guest today is Dr Pamela Ellis in her more than 20 years working in education research and as a financial executive in the private sector, Dr Pamela, the education doctor, has emerged as a leading authority on what it takes for students to thrive in education and thereby in life. Her work supports parents finding the school where their children can thrive, the one that feels like home. Dr Pamela's experience in education includes advising K 12 school districts, colleges, universities and community based organizations, which have helped numerous students transition and succeed on many levels and thrive in their life. Dr Pamela developed the education. Doctor curriculum through her research on transition and retention. She first piloted the program in East Palo Alto, California through a high school writing program. She brings her base of research, knowledge and client service excellence to families so that they can be strategic and intentional about education. Dr Pamela is a graduate of Stanford University and the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth College. Her doctorate was granted from the Stanford University, School of Education. Hi, Dr Pamela. Welcome to the podcast.

Pamela Ellis 2:36
Hello, Casey. I am just so excited to be here. Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 2:41
I'm really glad that you're here. I'm really excited to learn from you. Can you please share a little bit about your personal story of how you found yourself doing the work that you do? Yes,

Pamela Ellis 2:52
absolutely. My story, really, you know, starts back in high school. And so when I went to college, it's not only that I am a first generation college graduate, but I'm a first generation high school graduate. My mom finished eighth grade, and my dad finished 10th and so when it came time to prepare for college. I mean, we were just kind of, I was kind of all over the map in terms of applying anywhere. And my mom really didn't know, you know, where I was going for college, and didn't have a sense for it. And we took a Greyhound bus from Memphis, Tennessee to Palo Alto, California. And when we got there, I mean, she gave me $70 for the entire school year. And even back then, I thought that $70 was a lot of money, until I got to the bookstore the next day, and my books were $350 so just for one quarter, and that really changed a lot in terms of just the way I saw, you know, the whole process of going to college and what that was all about. And when I became a mom, I just became obsessed with schooling and how to help my own kids navigate through the educational systems, because I wanted to be that mom who would know how to guide them in terms of where they would be going and the different experiences that they would have, and that's what led me back to get my doctorate in education,

Casey O'Roarty 4:42
and we were talking before I hit record, as I was creating an outline for us today, I was just realizing how even though I was not first generation in our family, it was kind of a given. It was we had. I had the privilege of it being a. And, like everybody just goes to college, and we were supported through the process. And but I there was a lot that my parents must have been doing that I was super unaware of, because they signed me up for SAT class and, you know, made sure that I was checking the boxes that I need to be checking, and without me even really realizing it. And you know, now as a parent, I'm recognizing, oh, that was such a gift, but it also has has hindered me as I think about my son, who's in ninth grade, going into college, one day, I really don't know what I should or shouldn't be doing at this point, other than, you know, we've been adding to a college fund for him, but with the people that the families that you work with, what are some of the the myths? Well, first, what are, what are parents struggling with? Like, once they kind of wake up to the fact of, oh, I should be maybe doing something right now when it comes to supporting their kids and college, what are they? What are the big struggles that you're seeing?

Pamela Ellis 6:01
Oh goodness. One of the biggest struggles is being overwhelmed with all the information that's out there, and just not being able to get a handle on what's true and what's not true. And not only are parents overwhelmed with all that's available online, but they're also talking to friends, their friends who have kids that have gone to college, or friends who you know are in their you know, at their same grade level, who are talking about College, because it's such a big conversation, and it's one of those conversations that's automatically riddled with a lot of stress and anxiety, because it's, you know, the investment is huge these days. And so that's, you know, the biggest struggle I see is, you know, families just overwhelmed with, how do where do I start? What do I do? And like many of the families that I work with, similar to you, I mean, yes, they went to college, and it's always been an understood and even for their team, it could be an understood as well, but their kid is different than they are. And the whole, you know, admissions process has changed, you know, since they went to school. So what do they do? And there's a lot of misinformation out there about it, and myths that feed into that frenzy and make everyone just not really have a clear sense for what do I do and how do I do things in an intentional way to support my teen and where they are? Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 7:52
What are some of the biggest myths that you hear that you think are the ones that are really getting in the way? A couple of

Pamela Ellis 7:59
them. The biggest one is my kid needs to be well rounded. And that's probably the myth that I love to hate. Because with that myth, what it means is that you're running around doing a whole bunch of everything to make sure that your kid is quote, unquote, well rounded, and kids who think that they're doing the same thing. And so those are the families that come to me frantic because their kid doesn't have any community service. And I'm thinking like, why would they I mean, what's the point of having community service? Because if that's not something you care about, why would you be doing it right? And it's you know, then means that we you know, as parents. You know, for me, my kids didn't start driving until much later. And so if they're, if the if I believe that they should be well rounded, I would have been driving around to a lot of places like a crazy woman, and that just did not fit with anything that I wanted to do, right? So I you know, what I have seen over the years is that being well rounded actually works against students more so than help them. And so that's a huge myth. And the other one is taking both the A, C, T and the S, A, T, granted with all the recent test cancelations, there has been less of that happening because people can't get into a testing center. But even now, I have an event tonight. I'm doing a class around paying for college and the questions that parents have been asking online that they want me to address tonight is about testing A, C, T and S, a T, and what to do about it. And so it's still a big conversation, and the myth is that you take both and you keep taking them as many times as you can, and it feeds into a. Lot of frenzy and a lot of stress and anxiety, both of those myths, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 10:13
Well, and going back to the well rounded conversation, I mean, I can't imagine that colleges, haven't I, you know, I think about that statement of, well, this is going to look great on your college application. And, you know, I feel like there's both this amazing conversation happening right now in classrooms and homes, with families around growth mindset and being in process, and what are they learning? And there's this simultaneous conversation of, this has to look, you know, your college application has to look good. And it's this results oriented mindset as well. So it's, it's interesting. And do you think, I mean, it seems like that frenzy, whether it's about the well rounded or about the tests and doing them. I mean, I took the SAT twice and raised my score by a whopping 100 points, and it was fine, like I granted I don't know I went to college in the early 90s. My family, my dad, made me apply to way too many schools, many of which I didn't have a chance at getting into, and some of which I was excited about. And anyway, that's a whole nother podcast. And, you know, I had four schools to choose from, and I did fine. And so I'm wondering too about this idea around competition. How competitive is it? I mean, it feels like there's a college for everyone. Like, if our kids want to go to school, they can go to school. Now, granted, not everybody's going to go to Harvard, and I get that there's going to be some schools that are going to be more competitive, but if our kids want to go to college, is there a space for them?

Pamela Ellis 11:52
There absolutely is Casey and one of the things and this, you know, I thought about this as you were mentioning your dad and how he put your list together. What I stress to families is, when you're developing a college list, it's based on fit, and the whole college admissions process starts with your team. It starts with what's their why, and before you do anything else, what? Why do they want to go to college? And once we've established that, and there's some initial interest inventories or other things they've done to you know, really have that self awareness, then it's looking at colleges, and the colleges should that list should be determined based on fit, and I look at it in terms of fit being defined with five factors. So one of them is the academic fit, the social fit, financial fit, vocational fit and the cultural fit, and it's those five together, and that's how you determine a list. And Harvard, you know, is not a fit for every student. And there are tons of colleges out there in several, several dozen colleges that could be a great fit for your son. And when I'm working, you know, with families, if they come to me and they tell me that they only want to get into one college, we're not a fit to work together, because I don't believe that there's only one college for any student, and there are a number of great colleges out there that are a good fit for them based on who that student is, their values, their family values, what their Why is. And you determine those colleges based on those five factors,

Casey O'Roarty 13:57
yeah, and so your work, you're working with the teen as well to kind of help them, because I remember going in to school and not, I mean, it wasn't, it was really riding on my parents, why, which was, will you go to college so you can get a good job and, you know, live a successful life, which is very, you know, their generation and And I was easygoing enough to be like, sweet. I'll go to college. It sounds like a lot of fun. And it wasn't until after I was done with my BA that I even realized, like, you know what I would really like to I came out with a sociology degree and became a bartender, and then realized I want to be a teacher, and went back to school, and that's where I really thrived, was once I had more of a vision of what I wanted to be studying. And why do you find working with teens that there's a range in how deeply they can deep they can get into their future? And. Imagining their future.

Pamela Ellis 15:01
Sometimes, yes, that's the case. But what happens oftentimes is teens will say, I know I want to be a doctor. And what I do when I have students like that, because most of my students, I start working with them in ninth and 10th grade.

Casey O'Roarty 15:20
Oh, perfect timing. Dr Pamela, great.

Pamela Ellis 15:25
And the thing about it is, I have them do some interest inventories and assessments to, you know, really get at that a little bit more. And I also recommend I'll curate a list of summer programs for them. And I've had kids to say, you know, I know I want to be an engineer, you know, because my dad's an engineer or whatever. And they go to one of these summer programs, and let me tell you the number of kids to come back and say, Oh, that's not what I want to do it all right, you know, so

Casey O'Roarty 16:03
much cheaper than college to come to that conclusion,

Pamela Ellis 16:06
a lot more, a whole lot cheaper and so, and there are some kids, you know, who are completely undecided. They're open to doing whatever. They don't have any particular interest. But we even look at things like, you know, just how they're involved in school, sure to help with getting at that when they're working on their activities resume. And so there are things that they can do in high school that can help develop that self awareness and when students are a little bit undecided, there are colleges that are great for students who are undecided, and the way I have them research their college, we do that in a very systematic way so that they can compare the schools. And when they go through that process of researching, the way I guide them to they learn so much about themselves and what really interests them and what matters to them. And there are, I mean, I would say probably half of my students are undecided when they go to college, and my goal is that that college celebrates that they're still going to thrive when they get there and figure out what it is they want to do. And so, so, yeah, but teens, they change their mind. And even with the ones who say they know they want to do XYZ, freshman year, sophomore year, they change their minds and they end up doing something else, but again, wherever they go, those colleges are that college is a great fit for them and can still support their success when they change their mind or not.

Casey O'Roarty 17:56
Have you ever worked with families and as a team? Come to the conclusion that maybe a gap year would be what the child needs. Because I'm thinking this is a conversation that I had recently with my son just I was very young. Sorry, I keep talking about myself and my experience, but I was really young, going to college. I was 17. I didn't turn 18 until that September. And I wonder, had I had a year more of life experience, if college would have been a little less self indulgent and a little bit more educational for me, what are you noticing with the families that you're working with? I mean, is it obvious to you when maybe a child isn't quite ready, is it maybe? Is it your role to speak up? What does that look like?

Pamela Ellis 18:45
Oh, yeah, it's it's definitely something that I see every year in terms of students being interested in pursuing a gap year opportunity. Sometimes it's the parents who, you know, initiate that conversation first, because they're aware of it. And the students, you know, oftentimes in senior year, that's when they will recognize it. And what I do, because, again, I see this often, what I do is we still go through the process of applying to a few colleges in senior year, because I want them to have that confidence. I don't want them to feel like, you know, they didn't go through the process because they were afraid of being rejected, if you will, or being denied admission. So we look at a few colleges. Keep it simple, you know, maybe only two to three colleges that they apply to that could be a good fit, and then in winter term, that's when I will curate a list of gap year programs for them, and they apply to those programs in. The winter time, and then when they get their decision in the spring, they have choice of a college or a gap year program, usually, you know, a couple for each area, and from there, make their decision. And I've had a number of students, and generally it's most, mostly my boys, my young men, will do the gap year option. And it is transformational. It is just an amazing opportunity. I mean, I wish I had done a gap year because I clearly, I definitely was not ready for college, but I just thought, Okay, this is the thing to do. And there was no sense of a gap year back then. And actually, there was one of my colleges that I had not admitted to, they contacted me and asked me if I would consider doing a gap year before coming, and I thought, No, I'm going to go to college instead, because I just want to go now. Because I was thinking then that I was going to be going to medical school, and so I didn't do it. But boy, when I look back on it, that would have been a really good experience for me, because, like you had mentioned, I just didn't value that freshman year experience in the way that I should have had. I had a gap year, and there was a student in my dorm freshman year who was an older student, and she had taken a gap year. Her twin was a sophomore, but she had taken a gap year, and boy, she was the way she handled things, you know, and the way she carried herself, I just thought, Wow, this must be the coolest girl I've ever met. She was so sure of herself, and she just exuded confidence. And so a lot of that, I'm sure, was attributed to doing a gap year and at a time, because I finished in the late 80s, at a time when we really didn't hear much about that. But I think it's something that is a great experience for students. And the thing to know about gap year is that it should be something structured, yeah. And so when I'm curating a list for students is not, you know, it's an it's an official program of some sort. So whether, you know, if it's, it's, again, what is your WHY for doing the gap year? So some students may want to get work experience. For some, it's doing community service. For others, it's, you know, just being independent and getting away, you know, from home, learning some life skills before going off to college. Others, it's to build on their academic profile. For others, it could be to engage in their sport a bit more so that they can have a chance to go to a d1 you know. So it's all kinds of different reasons that students want to do a gap year. And, you know, the personal maturity is so key, and so

Casey O'Roarty 23:10
especially if you're going in to, like, really take advantage of the learning opportunity. I mean, right? And I love what you're talking about with the structure, because I remember, you know, it was high school, straight to college for me, and I remember, I can hear my dad's voice like, if you don't go to college now, if you take a break, you'll never go. That was kind of what was drilled into me. Of course, like I said, That was early 90s, and gap years weren't really a thing that I knew of. So I appreciate that we're speaking into it and recognizing this is a structure. This is an intentional time for our kids to continue to be in their development. I love that,

Pamela Ellis 23:53
yes, it is, and it's not about just staying at home for a year and that's your gap year, because one of the things too that happens that really is beneficial, when students have already applied to a few colleges that are a good fit. If one of those colleges is indeed a college that yes, they want to attend, they can get a deferral from that college. And I had one student, what he did was he asked for he requested a deferral, and the college said, No problem, because he had a set plan for what he was going to be doing for his Gap Year, which he shared with them, and they said, not only can you defer a year, but we'll hold your scholarship money and still give that to you when you come back. Oh, yay

Casey O'Roarty 24:46
for that college. Good job. That's super supportive.

Pamela Ellis 24:50
And you know, I've had another student just in the last couple of years, she applied to do a gap year pro. Program. And what she wanted to do, though, was she wanted to increase her competitiveness for one of the more selective colleges. And that is a way that students do that is through a gap year, because those colleges recognize if they're getting a student who's more mature, that's going to really take advantage of the offerings they have, and they can, you know, still contribute in a meaningful way as part of that cohort, because they will be a more mature student than the others that are in that freshman class. And so that was her strategy. Oh, that's

Casey O'Roarty 25:43
smart. Can you walk us a little bit through, like, I mean, we don't have all day, which I wish we did. I'm gonna have to look into your the classes that you do online for sure, and you can talk a little bit about that at the end. But can you just give us a brief little meander through what we could be thinking about as our kids move through each year of high school.

Pamela Ellis 26:07
Oh, absolutely so I'll say for ninth grade, the focus should be on your son's transition to high school, or any you know parent who has a ninth grade son or daughter, the social transition and supporting them with meeting teachers, supporting them with learning how to self advocate, making friends. Those are the key things to focus on in ninth grade, and believe it or not, this is still positioning them to have a strong list of colleges in 10th grade.

Casey O'Roarty 26:51
Well, I want to just pause you for one second, because something that I'm noticing with my ninth grader is even inside of this remote learning model encouraging him to be emailing his teachers and reaching out to his teachers and really letting go of doing for you know, I think this Well, the last few years have been an opportunity for all of us to you know, as parents, as our kids move through middle school, to step back as appropriate. And I think ninth grade is a really great place, and it's almost kind of a gift that, you know, it's not so much face to face at self advocacy, but they do kind of get that cushion of, you know, send an email and let's talk about the structure of the email and check spelling and those kinds of things. But I just want to point out that even in the environment where we are, it's still all remote learning, my son is still getting the opportunity to advocate for himself, so absolutely,

Pamela Ellis 27:49
absolutely, and he's also having an opportunity to make those social connections in terms of with his teachers, with His friends, and build community, even if it is virtual. Yeah, 10th grade is continuing to develop more their self awareness around what they're interested in, and interests as far as how they want to participate at school or in their community and in the summer after 10th grade, I think that's a great time to do some type of exploration in that way around their interest, because sophomore year tends to be somewhat of an awkward year in that students are No longer the new kid. They're not necessarily in the, you know, college admission cycle just yet, and so just doing that kind of self reflection and building their self awareness, I think it's a great time in 10th grade and for junior year, Junior year is really about developing their college list and doing the appropriate testing that's needed for the colleges on their list. And then senior year is about applying to colleges and really being intentional around which colleges they apply to, is what I shared with my students, is that every college on your list should be your number one school, because you shouldn't be applying to any school that's not a fit for you, or that you wouldn't be thrilled To be, you know, to be a student at and so that's kind of it in a nutshell. I One of the things that I do each week, almost really, is I sent out a newsletter that's a roadmap for the. Grades, because each grade is very specific in terms of what's important, and again, recognizing just how much stress and anxiety you know, is around this whole college admissions process. I'm really intentional around not even talking with my ninth graders and my 10th graders about colleges. You know, it's really all about them, and I want them to own the process. And one thing that's consistent across all the grades is the emphasis on reading for pleasure. And so I do talk a great deal about that, because the number one thing that colleges are looking for is intellectual curiosity, and they should be reading for pleasure, not just for school,

Speaker 1 30:50
not just Snapchats, not just Snapchats. That doesn't count.

Casey O'Roarty 30:56
Okay, great,

Pamela Ellis 31:00
but yeah, and so I get on them a lot about that. We know, what are you reading for pleasure? And you know, we do goal setting at the start of each, you know, semester, and discuss that. And I always encourage them to least consider a reading goal. You know,

Casey O'Roarty 31:19
do you have any resources for like I know that there's been some chatter in in some of my communities around, especially for our boys, around good books for teen boys,

Pamela Ellis 31:33
yes, and glad you asked that Question. Actually, my my sons just co founded a site. It's called Real ballers read and Oh, perfect. It's all kinds of because their whole mission is to make it cool to be yes, and so love it. So that's their website, and it's all about books, and they have a book a gram, or something like that, whatever it is, on Instagram, where they just talk about books to read and recommend books, and they have different reviews about books. And so that's their thing, and that's a great resource. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 32:20
I love that. I'm going to make sure that it's that the link will find the link and put it in the show notes for parents listening. I'm sure that's and I'm going to, I can't wait to go there,

talk a little. And I love that those first few years are about them. And I feel like that self development, you know, is part of you know, talking about, are kids mature enough to go to college, and where are they at? I mean, part of that is nature, and part of that is nurture. And I love that what you do in your work is to really recognize and hone in on helping kids develop themselves, and not only develop themselves, but that awareness piece that there is something to dig into, right, like, exactly, that's huge. I love that. Will you talk a little bit about scholarships? Because I saw on your website that your work can boast that 95% of your clients have been admitted to their top college choice and received an average of $75,000 in scholarships. So what do you wish parents understood about scholarships?

Pamela Ellis 33:34
Oh, yes, I love talking about that great. And what I will say is for any external scholarships, and these are scholarships that will go to any college that your teen enrolls. You can start applying as early as age 13, and so you don't have to wait till senior year, because one of the myths that's out there is that you start looking for scholarships in senior year. And so I have so many parents that come to me in senior year talking about, how do we get scholarships, you know? And it's like, yeah, here are some, you know, places you can go. And you know, I share those with them because there are some scholarships that are only for 12th graders, but the remainder, the other 80, 90% of them, you can start applying at age 13, so you don't have to wait until then.

Casey O'Roarty 34:29
When I think about scholarships, I think of athletic scholarships, or I think of academic scholarships.

Pamela Ellis 34:35
No, they're guessing there's more okay for anything you can imagine. There are scholarships for community service. There are scholarships for books that you've read. There are scholarships for being from a certain town. There are certain scholarships you know because of what grade you're in. There's certain scholarships for a whole host of reasons and everything you can. Imagine, you know, because you're left handed, you know. So there are all types of scholarships that are out there. And I think that you know what ends up happening is we apply, we wait too late to find out that, oh, there are all of these scholarships that are out here that I didn't know about. Now, one of the things that I will say in terms of the numbers, the higher dollar amounts that I talk about on my website, and what I've seen with my clients, is that the biggest dollars, the bigger, bigger dollars, come directly from the colleges. And so the everyday things that your teen is doing to be successful in their high school journey, and they are matched with those colleges that are a good fit, and those bigger dollars will come directly from the colleges, right?

Casey O'Roarty 35:57
Because they're who the college is looking for, right? Because that's where I love that you keep emphasizing the good fit. Dr Pamela, I love that, yeah, okay, yes.

Pamela Ellis 36:08
And so, and because they know who's a good fit for them, right? And so that's who they offer money to. And so I, do this five day, get the money for college challenge, and that's what my event is. Tonight is the culminating masterclass that I do, and it's all these things that we do during those five days. And it's meant to be quick, you know, something that gives you what you need. So I talk about it as five days, 15 minutes a day, good. And so because it

Casey O'Roarty 36:47
can feel overwhelming, I mean, I am dealing with my own stuff that has nothing to do with college, but it's amazing how you have that important phone call to make, and it just feels so big, but breaking it down into 15 minutes, easy,

Pamela Ellis 37:01
easy peasy. And you know what we start with? Here's the other thing, Casey, we start with growth mindset. Yep, I love it. Because as for each day, you know kind of the assignment for the assignment that they have each day, in the challenge, people will post their answers in the Facebook group and just to, you know, hear those responses. You know, oftentimes they are really shocked that that's where we start in talking about getting money for college. But it is, and I talk about resilience and growth mindset, that's the glue that holds my whole framework together. In terms of, you know, my framework for how I can support students with those numbers of 95% getting into their top choice colleges and the average scholarship of $75,000 it's the mindset that holds that together. And so those are the key things you know. External scholarship starts at earliest, age 13, and for any larger dollar scholarships, you're going to develop those in junior year, because it'll be based on your list

Casey O'Roarty 38:17
well. And again, you know that growth mindset, resilient mindset. What I'm hearing too, is it just how you unlock just this more expansive possibility for families. And, you know, I can think of friends of mine who have kids slightly older than mine, and I'm seeing it kind of in my social media feeds, because all of a lot of my friends where our kids are similar ages, and so how narrow our mindset can be when it comes to this. And I'm just really appreciating your work and ever more excited to dig deeper into it, especially because there is that expansiveness and, yeah, I just think that's such a gift. Thank you. Yeah, so if you could leave listeners, if there's one thing which, sorry, I'm sure there's, it's kind of a joke that I'm saying one thing, but if you could pinpoint one thing that would make a difference when it comes to supporting our kids on their college path. What would it be? What would you leave listeners with?

Pamela Ellis 39:26
Trust your teen, trust your team.

Speaker 2 39:31
Oh, I'm in love with that answer. Thank you for that. Trust our teens. Yes. I always end my interviews with this question, which is, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of your work and how you are serving the world? Joyful

Pamela Ellis 39:50
courage, to me, is confidence. Confidence, that's, that's what's key and. It. That's why I can do what I do with so much energy and smiling and having that joyful courage, because it's the confidence. Love it.

Casey O'Roarty 40:15
Where can people find you?

Pamela Ellis 40:16
They can find me online at the Education doctor on every platform. So whether it's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn or Pinterest, is the education doctor, and my website is compass, college advisory.com and there are you know, more than welcome to join the get the money for college challenge, the five day challenge. We'll have one. They happen each month, and they can also email me from that web address,

Speaker 2 40:56
awesome. And there's lots of resources on that website, everyone? So make sure that you check it out. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was super informative and fun, and I'm just grateful to know you

Pamela Ellis 41:09
me too, Casey, thank you.

Speaker 2 41:18
All right. Thank you again for showing up and listening to this show. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, please do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and leave a review. It makes a huge difference. We're working super hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by even more parents. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also follow joyful underscore courage on Instagram and Facebook. We love connecting with you on social media, and don't forget to sign up for the upcoming webinar this Thursday, getting clear on boundaries, consequences and punishment for middle school years and beyond. You can sign up now at joyful courage.com/boundaries, so much love to each and every one of you. I'll see you next week

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