Exploring Parenting Styles with Sarina Behar Natkin

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Casey O'Roarty 0:01
Courage, parenting podcast episode 26

All right, welcome back listeners. I can't believe, I can't believe that I am a day late this week in getting this podcast out to you, sorry about that. I have a lot going on over here. So it's Wednesday right now, and I'm hoping that by this evening, this podcast goes live. My hope is that my listeners are out there wondering what the heck is going on, like waiting, chomping at the bits for the next show that's happening, right? Tell me that's happening. Big news, super exciting. I had my biggest download month last month in January, to over 2000 downloads of the podcast. So I'm celebrating that. I'm celebrating our growth, the growth of this community. Always, always, always know that the best way to get the word word out is to simply let your friends and family know that you found a podcast that you like that's really helpful. You might need to show them what a podcast is and help them put it on their device. But the more you can do that, the more downloads I get, the more likely it is that the podcast will remain in existence. So do your part. Share it if you are finding that this is super helpful and something that you love to listen to while driving or folding laundry or running, share it. Let your people know they want to know. Share it. Share it, share it. So today, my guest is Serena Bahar natkin, and she is one of the forces behind grow [email protected]. She is a licensed social worker and a parent educator and coach in the Seattle area. She's a colleague of mine, someone I went through training with with positive discipline. She actually co founded grow parenting and provides parents with tools and support they need to raise healthy children and find more joy in parenting. Isn't that what we all want? Um, Serena is coming on the show to talk about parenting styles. And I think that I'm well, I know that I'm really excited about this conversation, because so often it comes up with me, for me with clients around really exploring where we land in the parenting style continuum. So Serena and I are going to dig into that, and you may just see yourself in our conversation, and hopefully you'll be taking away some tools, because it's not ever about perfection. It's always about improvement. When we know where we are, then we have a better idea about how and where we want to go. So you might just get some insight into where you're at and perhaps where you'd like to be with parenting and some tools for doing that. Please know little disclaimer, you know, the podcast is offered up as a smorgasbord of ideas and tools and thoughts. Take what works for you, leave what doesn't. I firmly believe that we are all individuals with individual families and individual values. My goal is just to get into the ear of parents and offer perspective and help and inspiration and maybe a wee bit of entertainment on the side. So yeah, I'm really excited about this conversation. How about you guys? Meet Serena? You music.

Hello, Serena, welcome to the podcast. How you doing?

Sarina Behar Natkin 4:14
Great. Casey, thanks so much for having me on today. Oh, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 4:17
so excited to have you on. Will you please start us off by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself and your journey and what you do

Sarina Behar Natkin 4:27
absolutely so I'm a licensed independent clinical social worker, and I started working with families. Actually, in college, I started working in the area of domestic violence, working with children and moms and I, I and additionally, I worked in the sexual assault field for a while, and and practiced as a therapist. And the shift came for me moving towards parent education after the birth of my first daughter, I was sort of knocked off my feet like all of the bar.

Unknown Speaker 5:01
I know so much exactly right?

Sarina Behar Natkin 5:03
I have all this knowledge of child development and all this stuff, and you know, I was still just sort of like a deer caught in the headlights. The other piece that rang true for me is I didn't have the mental space to take care of myself, to really do that kind of crisis work that I was doing before with a new baby, and I wanted to focus on, how do we really create healthy families from the start? So I moved my focus to parent education and working with families through both classes and privately as a parent coach to address the challenges that that many of us face and really let go of sort of the therapist hat, because I found most of what I was working with were very common challenges that we all have, and they didn't require me to to label, to give a diagnosis. Was something that was a it's frustrating, it's painful, it's hard, and we have to learn and grow, and so do our kids. But it wasn't, there wasn't a disorder, and so I really sort of moved out of that model, and my focus is more on these are common struggles that we go through, and here's an opportunity that we have to learn and grow along with our kids. So that's where I'm at today, and it gives me hope, and it gives me hope for our future. And you know, if we have healthy parents, then they raise healthy kids, and then our society gets healthier,

Casey O'Roarty 6:27
yay, yay, hooray for that. How old are your girls?

Sarina Behar Natkin 6:30
My girls are 10 and seven, and they are full positive discipline kids, man, if I mess up, they get that book and they show me that sounds like a threat. Did you want to phrase that differently?

Casey O'Roarty 6:44
Oh, right, there's that isn't there yet. Parents know, when I work with them, you know, if you're raising your kids with dignity and respect, then guess what? They're gonna expect dignity and respect, and we'll call you out on your stuff. Yes.

Sarina Behar Natkin 6:58
Oh, and they call everyone out. I, you know, get reports and say, you know, not everybody operates with this world. For you, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 7:05
and I do the work I do. And you brought up positive discipline, you're also a positive discipline

Sarina Behar Natkin 7:09
trainer. Yes, I am a positive discipline trainer. And that's how we That's how our paths. Yes, I know of that now. Yay. So

Casey O'Roarty 7:18
today we're going to talk about parenting styles. And I'm excited that we're going to talk about parenting styles, because I was online on Facebook and I was reading feedback that somebody had about a webinar that they saw. And apparently the webinar topic, there was some conversation around parenting styles. And even after they watched the webinar, the parent was talking about, like, what is authoritarian? Like, what? What do these words even mean? So it's a powerful conversation to be having absolutely, yeah, and often, parents don't really spend a lot of time considering how they show up or how they want to show up, or how their way of being is actually inviting behavior from their kids and during the positive discipline workshops. And those of you that are listening, who have taken a class with me or with somebody else, you know that this is often presented in the first weeks to help parents begin to see what their patterns are, which can be a little painful, and that there is movement even within the parenting styles, that we're not always in the same style all the time. It's not fixed or rigid. There's actually a lot of movement. So when you work with parents, and I know you do the same activity that I'm speaking of, what shows up in your work?

Sarina Behar Natkin 8:40
Well, the first thing, it's interesting, because parenting styles, it's this is sort of at the core of what parents are coming to you for, is there's a mismatch between the style they're using and and how their kids respond, or how they would like their kids to respond, right? So it, you know, regardless if someone is wanting to change their parenting style. The first thing is sort of realizing where they're at. We learn from our family of origin. We learn from what we saw. Humans. Learn from modeling, right? Yeah, so what we have stored away in us, in the parenting style we're gonna fall back on, if we're not, if we're not actively, you know, doing something different is what we saw. And like, you know, as today, our parents loved us, and they did the best they could with what they knew. And but our world has changed, and a lot of what kids are needing today and what researchers are telling us they need for the future, it doesn't align with parenting style of previous generations and and then when you throw partners into the mix, you know, we each partner in a family grew up with their own family of origin and their own their parents had their own style. So right there, you're bringing to the equation two different experiences of what it means to be parents and and what that looks like in day to day practice. And even if you grew up in the same even, I mean, even if you happen to grow up in the same house, the birth order goes into the mix too and affects people's parenting style can shift with with birth order as well.

Casey O'Roarty 10:12
Yeah, and I was laughing recently, I was responding in a conversation around podcasting and and parents. Oh, of course, I forgot to turn off my phone. I was chiming in on a thread about, like, Do your parents listen to your podcast? And I was cracking up, because sometimes I'll get a message from my mom and she'll say, Oh, I'm listening to your podcast. And a little part of me is like, oh, because I, you know, because I re I reflect on my experience, and I'm talking about showing up the way I want to show up. And part of that is letting go of or working towards letting go some of what was modeled for me. And what's interesting, though, is when we are in, when I'm in conversation with my parents, you know, their perspective of what it was like to raise me. It was totally different than my perspective what it was like, absolutely fascinating. And that was, you know, you talk about birth order, you know, I was the oldest of a lot of kids, you know, my sister, who was third, and the baby had a totally different experience, and that is fascinating to me, absolutely. But we're not going to talk about that. Yes, we're just No, we'll tease you all listeners about birth order. Maybe I'll find someone about Yeah, maybe you'll have to come back and we'll talk birth order. So let's just for right now, let's break down what we mean when we're talking parenting styles, because there's a couple ways to think about this. And I'm going to just start with the continuum, and then you can chime in with another way to look at it. But we're really we're talking about, if you could think about a continuum, right listeners. So there's on one end that overly kind, permissive style, right? And when I ask parents like, what would you see in in this home, the first word that always shows up is chaos, and then it's so funny every time. And then on the opposite end of the continuum, there's this overly firm, authoritarian kind of drill sergeant style. And what often shows up when I ask parents about this is fear, which I think is fascinating, because I think there's fear on the part of the child, because Whoa, mom and dad are scary, but I think there's also motivation in the parenting around fear of what will happen to their kids if they are not absolutely on top of everything. So I think that's super interesting. So there's that overly kind all the way over to overly firm. And when you talk, when we you know, when we talk to families, when you work with families, what are, and they're in these extremes, which, of course, we're not always living in the extreme, although that going on by you, but I have moments of the extreme. What do you see in families when these extremes are that are employed as the go to way of being for parents? What do you see? Well,

Sarina Behar Natkin 13:19
let's talk a little bit about what they what they look like so and one of the things to keep in mind is that even the extremes, there may be some positives in there that come with with those styles, you know, and we'll talk more about the balance of the two, And what they look like, kindness and firmness together. But you know, so if we're talking about a permissive home again, you mentioned this, that chaos comes up, right? But and some of the other things that come up. So there's this. The chaos comes from the lack of rules and boundaries being held. Structure, yeah. Structure, yes. They also tend to be homes that are highly creative and fun and loving, and they seem, you know, parents may sort of seem relaxed and, you know, bedtime, schmed time doesn't matter.

Casey O'Roarty 14:10
Oh my gosh, that makes me yes wet. Just think, yeah, bedtime,

Sarina Behar Natkin 14:17
Schmidt time, yes. So what happens here is the kids kind of run the show, right? And and the problem with that is is, after a while, it's just exhausting for parents, yeah. And so the truth is, it's hard to function there a long time, and kids are constantly looking for the boundary. So you may, while it may seem like there wouldn't be conflict in a home like that, conflict may, in fact, just be avoided because parents are feeling exhausted and steamrolled by their kids, and kids are just kind of pushing continually, like, where's the edge here? And that can create fear and of itself, right? Yeah, there's no, I don't know what. The boundaries of my behavior are, and so if they're not there for kids when they're younger, How then would kids learn to internalize those and decide for themselves when no one's there, right? Right? They also may lack the skills to deal with conflict or adversity, which is a normal part of life. So that's kind of what's happening in that permissive home. So there's lots of freedom, but there's no order, no structure, yeah. And the other end of that, as you mentioned, was the authoritarian. That's that really firm side. And so there's lots of order, but not a lot of freedom. And that's that looks like blind obedience in the part of the kids, parents. We

Casey O'Roarty 15:40
hope we can only pray for blind obedience, right?

Sarina Behar Natkin 15:43
That's what the parents are hoping for. What they may get is something else, or they may get it, but with a high cost to their kids, right? I

Casey O'Roarty 15:51
think about, when I think about blind obedience, my mind immediately goes to my teenage daughter, you know, and the situa and my you know, and their sons too, and, you know, blind obedience as they move into adolescence, and their peers are the ones that are influencing them. No, thank you.

Sarina Behar Natkin 16:08
No, no, absolutely not. Yeah, it's the I'm the boss. Do it or else, right? So there's no discussion. It's sort of ruling by fear. So it's using, you know, the underlying and when I think what kids hear underlying, that is love is conditional, yeah, right, I do exactly what you want, or I risk losing your love. Yeah? So either the relationship, you know, either there becomes no relationship as kids grow up, or somebody who's afraid to speak their mind, afraid to stand up for themselves. And, you know, really can end up alienated and tuning out. Yeah, you know, it's in our house. The other day, my daughter was asking same question several times in a row. And hence, you know, I think after at some point, I looked at her and I said because I said so, and we both just burst out laughing. I said it as a joke, right? But that was the parenting style of the past, right? Not. It was not a discussion. And some of what we see today is this, like shift back and forth. But I want to talk before we talk about that shift, I want to talk a little bit about other parenting styles that you hear of. So sometimes, and in positive discipline classes, sometimes we talk about the four parenting styles. So that's the permissive that we mentioned, which is black boundaries and the authoritarian that like top down. And there's another book, there's another square there called that's called neglect.

And traditionally, when we think of neglect, we think of children who are in homes that they're really struggling, struggling. There's poverty and and crises and things that are going on that the parents, for whatever reason, are not able to care for their children's emotional and sometimes physical well being. And while that occurs, we're seeing a new kind of neglect in families, and that is when families are so busy and so tuned in to technology, they're lacking connection. So they actually are not, may not be meeting the emotional needs of their kids. Yes, their kids may have, you know, their basic needs met, food, shelter and clothing, and that's and healthcare and stuff, and that's important, but there's a lack of connection. Because kids are going from activity to activity to activity after school and on weekends and when they're home, the use of technology is so high that, you know, there's no space for emotional connection to happen well,

Casey O'Roarty 18:59
and when I think of technology I am part of both kids and parents. Yes, right? Man, these phones, they sure are handy. They sure are fun. Yeah, sure can suck you in. Oh, yes. So I had Rachel Macy Stafford on the show. Do you know Rachel the hands free mama? So she was on the show this last summer, Episode 11, if anyone wants to scroll down and find that, and we talked a lot about her journey with this and how powerful it can be. Not only do we need to make agreements and set boundaries with our kids, but we got to do it for ourselves. So

Sarina Behar Natkin 19:36
absolutely. So first thing I look at when parents come to me with technology challenges is we talk about their use. So you are yes and it is hard. I am not saying it is not hard. I've started side note. I've started a new practice of telling my kids what I'm doing on the computer, because actually the truth is, much happens on the computer. Now it's not that I'm sitting there playing games. Games or using tech time like they use it. I'm paying bills, I'm working, but if I'm never communicating what I'm doing, right? It just all looks the same. Yeah. So, you know that's we gotta just like our parenting. We learned our parenting style from our parents, or, you know, sort of our fallback parenting style our kids are learning from us, and this is true for all areas, all things that are definitely so. So

Casey O'Roarty 20:26
there's this style in the middle, right? So we've talked like high kindness, low firmness, high firmness, low kindness. And then the neglect, which is basically no kindness or firmness, yep. Then we've got high kindness, high firmness. We talk about it as authoritative parenting, or Democratic Parenting, or like the ideal positive discipline situation.

Sarina Behar Natkin 20:50
I'm still searching for another name for that box, because, you know, authoritative is really close to authoritarian. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 20:57
you know, I look I actually looked up those two words, because I find myself presenting that those two concepts and like, why do they have to sound so much alike? And it's because the the beginning of the word a Thor, a Thora, whatever it actually comes from the the root for the word leader. Ah, right. And it's two very different leadership styles, absolutely. But yeah, I would be down with a better another

Sarina Behar Natkin 21:27
name, democratic than that. You know, turns off the Republicans in the audience, even though we're not talking about politics. So I'm looking for that other now, yes,

Casey O'Roarty 21:37
so what does it look like?

Sarina Behar Natkin 21:39
So this is that kind and firm at the same time. So like permissive parents, authoritative parents are responsive and nurturing and involved. But unlike permissive parents, there's mutual respect, so the self respect of the parent is equally important to the respect of the child. So this means I can be loving and say, I know you'd like to go to the park when you have your shoes on, then we can go. And if my child doesn't want to put their shoes on and they're mad about it, they can be mad. I can even offer them a hug. But I don't need to shift what's happening. I don't need to shift my decision that, you know, something needs to happen first. They need to put their, you know, finish their homework, or whatever the whatever it is, it's holding the boundaries in a way that is still kind, but it's respectful of me as well as the kids. So I can love my kids very much, and we could have set up a plan for them remind remembering to bring their snack to school. And, you know, small everybody forgets things, but let's say we're consistently forgetting things. If I was to take my child's snack up to their school every time they forgot it, I'd kind of be sending the message that, you know, my time doesn't matter so much, and I know we have this agreement, but it's okay if you don't keep it, I'll fix it for you. That would be the permissive right, the authoritative or democratic, or the magic word I haven't come up with. That's the that sucks, that you forgot your snack today. Yeah, what do you need to do so you can remember to bring it tomorrow? Yeah? Do you want to do some problem solving around that? What would help you? Right? Yeah. So kids from that, they we can authoritative. Parent uses connection as a tool for teaching valuable life skills, for encouraging self discipline, for engaging and problem solving. And what your kids get from this is courage and resilience and self discipline and self respect. Yeah. The other piece is like, so there's authoritative parents have a similarity to authoritarian parents too. So authority like authoritarian parents, authoritative parents really hold those boundaries on behavior, like we talked, but unlike, the difference is between the sort of top down, highly firm is boundaries may be set through joint problem solving and are held again. They're held with warmth and kindness and respect. So we're using empathy in the way we hold boundaries. So it's not about punishing, it's about what's the problem and how do we find a solution to

Casey O'Roarty 24:21
it? Yeah, I was just working with a client today around bedtime and a three year old, and I was asking her about if they had a routine that they had created together. Because I think that that power struggle of bedtime, with our young and with our older kids, what happens is they don't have the skills to unwind, or it just feels chaotic, or they're feeling unattached, and they want another glass of water or another book, and the parents get frustrated, and then it becomes this, you need to stay in bed. You know, we all feel crappy about later. And so when I think about authoritarian. Creative style, that kind of firm style would be. Let's be proactive. Let's set the structure. This is how it is. And it's okay to say, I know you'd love to have another glass of water, and we already did that part of the routine. It's okay to feel disappointed, yep, right, and staying really in that neutral, calm body, because I think that we it's difficult. I think there's this. Well, I know I work with parents that have a challenge around being firm without being mean. Yes, right? Because I think those things in our society have gone hand in hand, like firmness is this scrunchy face and pointing finger, and you will do this, right? But it doesn't have to be like that.

Sarina Behar Natkin 25:43
Well, it's a, you know, one of the things that I when I think about, sort of, the culture of parenting, big picture, is I think about how that what we're up against sort of, in changing the culture of parenting, because we have so many systems within our culture that are built on hierarchy and top down and and very little models for kind and firm at the same time. Yeah, it's either you're good or you're bad, right, right? And if you're bad, then, you know, lots of places in society, lots of systems don't necessarily think that you deserve the same respect. Problem is we, we, you know, if we feel disrespect, we're not likely to come back to the table, right? We're not likely to shift. And speaking of culture. So here's something that I've done some reading about, and is fascinating to me, is how shifts, how our culture and societal trends in general affect, sort of the current, prevailing parenting style. So, you know, we talk about this in positive discipline that, that idea of how, you know, what we grew up with Shift we've talked about sort of what we Sorry, what we grew up with, affecting your style, but you know, in past generations, so when I think about like my grandparents generation and how my parents were raised, which was where they learned how to parent, right, the parenting style they learned and use on me. So it was a different time. So there were wars going on. Employment trends were different. There weren't necessarily two parents working in the home. There was more scarcity. And, you know, those harder Great Depression, harder times. There's a reason that people go to more of a top down structure, and they want order. They feel, you know, there's uncertainty. So we're gonna make things, you know, you don't argue with what's on the table for dinner. If there's meat on the table for dinner, you be thankful that it was there, because that was a scarcity, and you were lucky to have it. And you know, there may have been, you know, certainly in countries where wars were actively taking place, obedience was important to keep you safe, right, right? So, so it was a different time, and people, when they went to when it came to work, people went into one one to one employer, and may stay there their whole career, right? So what's happening now is the needs or our culture has changed. We have a changing workforce. People are graduating or going to college or graduate school. They're coming out of school at a later age, and they're going into the workforce well where they may change career, not just change where they work, but actually change fields of work multiple times during their career. People live longer, they work longer. There's also less reliance, in general, on on knowing data in your head. So thank you, Google, yes. So it is always there. You don't have to have the timeline for the civil war in your head, yeah, but what you do have to know is, you know, how are you gonna figure out a problem with someone's different than you? Yeah, so, so our, you know, I think part of what happened, like, you know, our parents generation and our generation certainly we, you know, we're like, wow, we do not want that top down style that is not gonna work, right? I'm not gonna be that mean boss who says, Because I said, So, right? Washing mouse out with soap. None of that. That's horrible, right? We're gonna let that go. Nevermind that. That stuff may have come about for reason, but we went so far the other direction, so we swung the pendulum to that opposite end of the continuum, and everything became a choice, and everything became a discussion. And, you know, as I talked about earlier, after a while, you kind of feel walked all over, yeah, well, and it's interesting too, because I have clients who feel like I have a

Casey O'Roarty 29:54
well, by the time this airs, it will have already been on the podcast. But an interview I did a live parent coaching that I did with a client of mine, who said, sometimes we feel like we've created a positive discipline monster, because, you know, she's forgetting that, yes, we love limited choices, and limited choices allows for kids to develop feelings of capability and significance and belonging, and it's okay to say no, exactly, you know, the more limited choices you can offer, the more likely it is that, when you say, You know what, I'm gonna make the decision on this one, and the answer is no, that it's gonna be, you know, respond. It's more likely that it'll be responded to favorably. So I think I'm hearing what you're saying about that pendulum swing and that lack of model, and because we don't know what to do, we err on the side of permissive, which is not helpful. It's

Sarina Behar Natkin 30:51
not and here's the kicker, right? So after a little bit, you feel walked all over and you're like, who you know? What is going on here? My kids are running the show. This is ridiculous. And maybe you've had a bad day and you're tired, or maybe your kid does something that really pushes your buttons, and we flip. We immediately jump to that other end and we say, That's it. Go to your room. I don't want to see you until you figured out how to fix this. Right, right? So we flip and we go, and that's when we hear that we all of a sudden, we're like, whoa. I just channeled my parent, I didn't even know that was in there, and out it came. And then to keep going with this so often we feel guilt about that. And then if we're parenting from guilt or fear, we go back to her, because I am so sorry. Yelled at you, honey. Let's go get a cupcake, and we can just have a movie night and eat treats, and you can stay up late, and here we are right back. And so we're just doing this dance back and forth, because neither of them work, yes, neither of them work in the long term. I love

Casey O'Roarty 31:49
that. I don't love it. It's totally annoying. But I love when I get to talk about this with parents, this dance, because every head in the room is nodding, looking at me like, oh my gosh, you just described my life. Yep, because that is it's like, anything goes to you are bugging the hell out of me. Gosh darn it. I'm gonna and then it's like, quit doing that, or there's gonna be no more TV for the next two months. I'm really sorry. Yeah, yeah. It's just Yeah. And the kids are like, what's going on?

Sarina Behar Natkin 32:32
Yeah, it's very confusing for them, right? And so then they're sort of in that world of like, I don't know what to expect. And can you imagine the sort of insecurity that creates in the child? I don't know if I'm gonna get Jekyll or Hyde. I don't know if I'm gonna get cozy loving mom who will do, I mean, always loving, but mom who's gonna do anything for me and take away any problems that come my way, or mom who's gonna lose it and, you know, shame and yell and punish right? So if they're, if we're back and forth, it creates so much confusion for them, and the they kind of either develop apathy, like whatever, I don't know what's going to come. So why does it matter if I try right? Or, you know, surely Sam, yeah, yeah, frustration and kids, we all like some sort of boundaries. It's not that we need rigid, you know. But if, if we are always searching, if we don't know what's out there, we're constantly, like, searching, where's the edge, so we know that it's there, and we don't fall off, you know. So it's really, really anxiety provoking for kids either side of that pendulum. And so what we're really, you know, what we're really looking for is that both and right, both kind and firm, yes, so both loving and respectful, mutual respect, and

Casey O'Roarty 33:52
it's tricky, and it requires continuous practice, absolutely

Sarina Behar Natkin 33:56
and here's the here's the other piece. So couples often will play opposite parts in that dance, in that pendulum swing. So not only will we swing back and forth ourselves, but we watch our partner who has had a long day and is frustrated and got their buttons pushed, and they lose it, and we go right back, and we Oh, gosh. Now my kid is really upset, and he was so mean, and I'm going to make it all better, right? So not only undermine our relationship with our kids, but we can also undermine our partners relationship with the kids, because play opposite sides. Because if we, let's say we grew up in a very permissive home and our partner grew up in a very authoritarian home, what's that gonna play out like? Oh, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 34:44
I do know. I know it very well. Serena, so we want to aspire for that. Both answer, right? Yeah. And I think that it is really important for people that are listening to know that. That the goal of always living there, oh, is Yeah, misdirected, right? Because while we can all aspire to live in the authoritative style all the time, we're human beings with triggers and histories and emotions that can sometimes get the best of us right? And I haven't, you know, sometimes I don't even have to be triggered by my kids. Oh, yeah, you know, I mean, I'm a woman over 40. I got some hormones stuff going on, whether or not I'm sleeping. Well, have

Sarina Behar Natkin 35:33
another podcast about that, shall we?

Casey O'Roarty 35:36
But you know, there's, there's all sorts of things that can trigger me and invite, if I'm not in my awareness and willing to take what I'm noticing and find my calm body and make that shift, I can be right in that reactive mode. So so as we move towards improvement, especially the listeners who are thinking like, okay, great, oh my gosh, you've described me now. What the heck am I supposed to do? What are some first steps towards improvement when you start to notice that you spend a lot of time in either of these places or in that dance?

Sarina Behar Natkin 36:14
Well? And I want to say that, you know, this is like relearning a world view, right? This is not like, I'm going to learn how to jump rope or I'm going to learn I'm going to train for a marathon this. I mean, well, training for a marathon is pretty big. You can do that, I'm sure. But this is really, people are really relearning something here. And what's interesting is people may get this view of leadership, as you've mentioned, that that beginning of authoritarian, authoritative being about leadership, people can get this style of leadership at the workplace and not at home, right? So there's lots of people who have embraced this in the workplace who get that the bottom line actually increases when you include people in decision making, when you empower them, when you trust and encourage right, but then come home and leave that all there. And really when we think about improvement, which I love, because this is not about perfection. I mean, Gottman talks about with emotion coaching, if you're doing it 30% of the time, that's awesome, right? Not about being perfect here. And the great part about parenting this way is the focus is on modeling all that you want them to see, which means that when we make mistakes, we can embrace them, because we're modeling for our kids how to recover from mistakes, right? Yay. When we feel bad, and we did, we start to get on ourselves because we didn't handle it the way we wanted to, we can practice self compassion and model that, you know, we still love ourselves and we can still work towards our goals, and that models it for our kids, and we're modeling patience for our kids, which I think we'd all like to see a little more of sometimes.

Casey O'Roarty 38:03
All right, so this is all really good and well, and really wanting listeners to walk away with things that they can start today, right? So you had told me before we started recording that you've got some some tips, Elena.

Sarina Behar Natkin 38:21
All right, so the first thing is to slow down and notice. So spend a week just noticing what your style is. And so sometimes, because people might not be kind of sure where they're at or if they tend towards one end or the other, or what triggers them to swing back and forth. So that very first step is just noticing when emotions are high, where you tend to go? Do you tend to say, I can't deal with this, do whatever? Or do you, you know, sort of get angry and want to take control, because we can't change what we're not aware of. So first we got to create that awareness, So paying attention when it happens. And you know, not even I mean, if you can shift it to the moment, great, but for that first week, just noticing, where do I tend to go, and are there certain situations that make me go one way or the other? Watching Dan Siegel's video on YouTube, if you Google Brain and hand model, you can see you can get a great, very short, two minute video on what's happening in your brain when emotions are high. And so that first step right there is just noticing when emotions get high, and where do you tend to go? Yeah, awesome. That's one. So second step is, is beginning to when you notice yourself going to that so Dan Siegel talks about flipping your lid was sort of when our rational thought goes offline and we're and we're really in that fight or flight and really wanting to react is which is where we're going to have a tendency to go one way or the other with the pendulum and starting to notice that feeling. Happening, slow down and decide to do something different. That's something different, maybe, honey. I am really upset right now. I need to calm myself down, and then let's talk about how we can solve this problem together. By the way, works great with partners, too. So I and so slowing down, deciding to do something different, and when we're not able to do something different, because we're human and we're gonna make mistakes, the most important thing you can do is making a repair with your child, to going to child and saying, you know, I slimed you. I got really mad, and I was disrespectful, and I'm sorry. I would love it if we could have a calm conversation about this, so I could hear more, you know what, why this is important to you, or, you know, depending on the age your kids, the level of conversation you can engage in, but really just owning your behavior. And my gosh, do we? Don't we want our kids to do that? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:00
I remember when I first learned about making repairs, and I thought, Oh, great, I'm gonna be doing this like all day long, and it's not gonna mean anything. And really, for in my practice, and what I'm hearing from parents and their practice is that third step of this is what I'm going to do differently next time I'm speaking that out into the universe. You know, it's like, now I have to do it right. The other time I feel that way, you're gonna notice that I'm gonna walk away, or next time I feel that way, and making a commitment. And what I noticed was, because I made that commitment, I was actually making repairs less often than I thought I would absolutely,

Sarina Behar Natkin 41:38
absolutely. The third tip is, sometimes it's easier to focus on what you do want than spending our time focusing on when we don't want. So what I mean by that is sometimes it might be really hard to say, Okay, I'm not going to lose it. I'm not going to go top down. I'm not going to go top down. Sometimes our focus on that can can make it more challenging. So it may be helpful, as we do in positive discipline class. And I do this with every client is thinking about where you're headed. So making those making that list of traits and life skills and characteristics that you hope your child has when they are grown up and, you know, like you, we've probably, we've probably done this like, 1000s of times, huh? Totally. And the list is almost always the same, and it's got empathy and self discipline and communication and trust and respect and all these things you want your kids to have. So then put that list up, because those are the things to model. So if you didn't have a model on what kind and firm at the same time looks like that, authoritative parenting, if you haven't had a model that this may help you get clear, because those are the characteristics, right? Yeah, keep your eyes on fries, right? So keep your focus on that. So am I modeling these things? Because you know that list that you come up with those great things, that's what you want those. That's what you want to do. So you want to show respect it to your towards your kids, emotions. That's kind of firm. You want to show self respect that's kind of firm like all of those are part of that authoritative parenting. So that may be an easier way to move towards where you want to go. It's kind of your roadmap.

Casey O'Roarty 43:24
Was something that's been really showing up as context as I work with families these days, is that our beingness really Trumps our doing Ness, right? So we aren't doing the work of embodying kindness and firmness, of embodying Connect. Like for me, when I think of my intention, my intentional way of being with my kids, the goal is calm, connected, available and compassionate. Like those are my four kind of mantras, and I practice that. I talk about this on the podcast a lot, but I practice that throughout the day, so that when I'm confronted by the angsty child or the disrespectful, flippant comment, it's more likely that I can tap into that body because I've been practicing what that feels like, and when I'm in that space, then I can think about all of my tools absolutely

Sarina Behar Natkin 44:24
right? Yeah, it's, it's hard when we're in that frantic space, you know, fear. And, you know, I get it. I have fears as a parent too. We all do. But if we parent only from that place, what our kids learn is fear. Yeah, you know, yeah, so, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 44:41
Okay, Serena, I have one last question, because this is a new everybody gets this last question now, okay, starting last interview that I did. And then the question is, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Sarina Behar Natkin 44:56
Hmm, I'd love it. I love those words. Yes, it it to me, it means acknowledging the courage that lies within us and finding joy in it. So not finding, I mean, we can find joy in in the outcome, or the, you know, the task completed, or whatever it is, but joyful courage is about along the way, finding joy in what you're what you're bringing to the table, celebrating our growth and having the courage to try again. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:26
love that. Awesome. So where can listeners find you?

Sarina Behar Natkin 45:32
They can find [email protected]

Casey O'Roarty 45:39
sorry, it's all good, Mama.

Sarina Behar Natkin 45:42
Okay, so www.growparenting.com you can find me on Facebook at grow parenting has a page there, or on Twitter at Serena. Serena natkin, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 45:55
and I'm going to make all those links available in the show notes, so no worries there. Thank you. Good, good, good. And listeners. Just so you know, Serena writes the most eloquent articles and blog posts around a variety of topics when it comes to parenting. So I will lead you in her direction so that you. Thank you very much. Yeah, yes. Thank you so much for coming. I know, right.

Sarina Behar Natkin 46:19
I love great. Love it,

Casey O'Roarty 46:21
yay. All right, well, we'll talk again soon. Okay, thanks. Casey, bye, bye.

So great, right? I love talking about parenting styles and the dance and just broadening the lens around this journey of parenting. So I hope that you got a bunch out of that conversation. Um, always a pleasure to talk to my friend Serena again. You can check the show notes for all the links for finding her and following all of her good stuff. She writes amazing articles on the Grow parenting blog. So I would absolutely get on her facebook page and follow her blog. She is a brilliant writer, and just has really great clear no nonsense, step by step, instructions on how to make different times of day more easier and just, you know, again, broadening perspective around parenting, right? So before you leave me today, I just wanted to be clear about the carry, the future baby carrier drive that I mentioned not too long ago on the podcast. So it's up and running. I actually have a a page on my website, which is joyful courage.com and when you go to joyful courage.com you will see in the navigation bar all the way over to the site, it says carry the future. Drive. When you click on that, you will see a page that gives you more information about carry the future. There's a bit about Operation refugee child with information about how to donate. There what kinds of baby carriers are accepted, how to what the there are a couple companies that are partnering with carry the future, and you can find out who they are. There is an address for locals I'm teaming up with, grow with me. Boutique, shout out to Janae. Grow with me. Boutique, she's going to be the drop off place for locals to drop off your gently used or new baby carrier. And then there's a bunch of addresses for around the country. There's one in Alexandria. There's actually two in Alexandria, Virginia. There's one in Madison, Wisconsin, and then there's one in Glendale, California. So be a part of making a difference. Remember, did you listen? If you haven't listened to this podcast yet, you've got to listen to it. It was a bonus episode, and it was last week. Just last week it went live. And so inspiring the work that these people are doing. So check it out. And the other thing that I want to make crystal clear to everyone that's listening is that I am a certified coach. I am a parent coach, life coach. I am here to serve. So if you're listening to these podcasts and feeling like you're really getting to know me and appreciating my style and appreciating my lens that I see the world out of get in touch and check out my coaching offer and get curious about how we could work together. Because good, exciting news is I. Have some freed up space, so I now have space for coaching clients. So I'm looking for my newest batch. Could be you get in touch. Casey at joyful courage.com. You can do a free half hour exploratory call. Or hey, you could go live on the podcast and do a half hour of coaching with me there. So there's ways of checking it out before committing, and I'm just sure that you'll want to commit, because it's just that good. So my friends, have a fabulous day. Thank you so much for listening. I do this for you, loving it, hoping that it's inspiring and entertaining and all that good stuff. Send me some feedback. Love it over the email or via iTunes. Leave an iTunes review or give me five stars. Let me know how this is landing for you. And thank you to everybody who has already done that. Love it, appreciate it, and I will see you next week. Bye

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