Eps 25: Ariadne Brill Talks About Raising Attached Babies

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful courage. Parenting podcast episode 25 you

Hey, podcast listeners, welcome back to the show. I'm really excited today to share with you an interview that I did with Ariadne brill. For those of you that have been listening to the podcast for a while, you'll know that she was someone who I interviewed really early on. I think she might have been my second guest that I interviewed on the podcast. She's amazing. She runs the positive parenting connection site, online and Facebook page, which has like a bazillion fans, because it's so incredible, and she writes a blog and tons of articles, and she's a mama to three kids. She is just a phenomenal human being who is really on a mission to support and encourage and love parents on their journey. So today, what we're going to talk about is beebez and specifically around attachment and what attachment means. You know, attachment gets thrown around a lot. I know that when I had small babies, I was really into Dr Sears, and learned about Attachment Parenting through him and yeah, and have developed, over time and ever more, ever deeper understanding about what attachment really means, especially As I work with teachers and caregivers around working with kids exposed to trauma and insecure attachment. So Ariadne and I are going to talk about attachment, and I'm really excited, and I think that even those of you whose kids aren't necessarily babies anymore will still get a lot out of the conversation. So give it a listen. And if you have friends or family that you think, hey, you know what this would be really useful information, please share the podcast. Share the love, spread it around, because the more people that listen, the better it is for all of us, right, making the world a better place through sharing our understanding and our learning with the people that we love. So without further ado, let's talk to Ariadne.

Hey, there. Ariadne, welcome back to the podcast. Hey,

Ariadne Brill 3:00
thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 3:02
Well, I'm so excited after our conversation in the second episode of the podcast, to have you back on here and to talk about raising babies. It's such a special time for parents, right? And we all get to go through that first year. And you know, there's the pieces that we're ready for and expecting, and then there's everything else, right? So what lights you up about talking to parents about babies?

Ariadne Brill 3:31
Yeah, so having a baby really changes everything. It really does. It doesn't matter if it's the first baby, second, third. Every time a baby is entering into, you know, a family or into the parents life, things are just going to change. Maybe it's a temporary change, but there's definitely change. And so there's a lot of potential for goodness and happiness and joy, but there's also so much room for doubt and all these challenging moments, and so it lights me up to be able to talk to parents about raising babies, because there's so much benefit from having some trusted support. I really find that in my work, the more support and encouragement and education that parents have, the better outcomes they're going to be for the for the whole family. So I work on a weekly basis with with parents that have, like, brand new babies, and I get to follow them through the first year. And it's truly a privilege, because there's so much that comes with welcoming that baby into the world and then sorting everything out.

Casey O'Roarty 4:37
Right? So do you what do you do on a weekly basis? Is it like a parent group? Or tell us a little

Ariadne Brill 4:44
bit about that? Yeah. So I work with this really lovely association where we have an open door every Monday morning where parents can come, moms, dads, sometimes grandmothers come, aunts. And this Monday morning group has. Particular focus on new families, like families that have just welcomed the baby into their life. And it's just so beautiful because there's, there's really a lot to sort out. There's, there's a lot of advice, and there's, there's a lot that goes into that, that caring for the baby, and it goes beyond just, you know, the feeding and the which kind of diaper to choose, there's, there's a lot of room for finding the support and the encouragement to get through so that everybody is doing well, like our focus is not to tell parents what they should be doing, but help them voice what what areas they need support and encouragement, and what education do they do? They really need so that their baby can thrive, but more so so that they, as parents, can feel like they doing well too.

Casey O'Roarty 5:53
Oh, what a great service. That's so great. And because there's the obvious stuff, right? Like you spend nine months being pregnant and fantasizing and imagining what life's gonna be like when this baby comes. And like you said, picking out the right diapers. There's the you know, for us, there was a conversation like disposable or, you know, or cloth, what are we gonna do? Or do we buy a crib? Are we gonna co sleep? There was all those questions, you know. And then it's funny, because baby comes and, like, those are the least, some of the least important things to have thought about. And, you know? And then it's like, oh my gosh, I have to keep a human being alive. Yes, I, you know. And it's like, way bigger than just, like, do I go sleep, or do I crib, or do I do this, or do I do that? It's like, oh my gosh, there, especially the first baby, right? I mean, I guess I'm speaking from that perspective, that first baby of, you know, like, wow, you know, birthing into being a parent, it's so, it's big, it's huge, and it's, there's unexpected things that show up. I think every mom or dad would say there's, you know, a way longer list of things that you didn't imagine prior to baby coming, versus what you prepared for. And so, you know, there's that surface stuff. We feed them, we diaper them, we love them, we hold them. But then there's things happening under the surface for our baby, and I know, like we're gonna get into attachment cycle and what that looks like and but can you speak a little bit into you know, it's not just keeping them alive, right? It's not just meeting their basic needs, but there's also some deeper level stuff going on. Will you talk a little bit about that? Yeah,

Ariadne Brill 7:40
absolutely, like you said, there's all these tasks about caring for the baby, right? But then possibly more than ever before, right now, parents are bombarded with information, and a lot of times it's contradictory information, so everything from feeding to sleeping to entertaining, mean the number of transformational programs, cures, you name it is out there, but a lot of the very fundamental practices that are needed are really getting lost and by these fundamentals, like you were saying, you know, below the surface, there's so much going on with the baby in the first year of life, And so these fundamentals, is what the baby really needs to grow well and to develop as close to optimally as possible. So, you know, there's no such thing as a perfect baby. There's there's no recipe to say, Okay, if I do x, y and z, then my baby will do, you know, will grow to be an adult that does X, Y and Z as well, like you can't get there. But there are things that we know now based on years of research and science and you know, allowing your wonderful children to be guinea pigs in a nice way. And even us, you know, our generation, you and me, we were parented in one way. There were some thoughts behind that. Our parents before us were parented in a different way. And so as as we move forward and as we know more about the brain, about child development, about how you know neurons work, and how our brain is firing, these fundamentals really help us, help our babies grow as optimally as possible, so that they're socially, emotionally, cognitively, physically, well, and an attachment is a huge part of this. And that's below the surface going the whole first year of life. This is what the baby is working on. The baby is working on sorting out this information about not only that they exist and that their caregiver exists, but they're organizing information about the world. And so attachment really is about that. It's, it's basically, there's the evolutionary theory of attachment, right? And this talks a little bit about how we're all pre wired, or, you know, pre. Programmed, a little uploaded program into our brains that that we need to form attachments with others and and this is below the surface with a baby during the first year, the obvious things that we might see like, I remember when my first baby was born, you know my first son, you know he learned to smile and he learned to grasp my hand and he learned to feed like those are the things we see on a day to day basis. But below that, what we don't see and what you know we don't really might not know much about unless you know it's your area of expertise or research, is all those neurons firing, all the mirroring taking place, and all this development that's helping the baby sort and organize information about the world, and so that that's, that's what this the fundamentals here, with this attachment piece that is going on. I

Casey O'Roarty 11:03
yeah, I talked to teachers. I work with teachers out here where I'm at, and we have a whole workshop around working with kids exposed to trauma. And we talk about attachment, the attachment cycle, and baby having a need, the need, you know, getting aroused in the brain, in the body, having the need be met, and baby coming back to relaxation. And how that is a cycle that happens, you know, like, I don't know, hundreds of times in a minute. It feels like sometimes, and through that continuous cycle, that sense of security, safety, the world is safe. I can depend on the adults in my life. I'm okay, becomes developed. And it's when that's that cycle becomes disrupted, that it can change the lens that children then learn to develop over time when they don't feel safe, when they don't feel like there's a caregiver there. And I'm always really quick to say, you know, that doesn't mean that we have to get it right every time, because how many new parents are like, Ah, okay, you're not hungry. I'll change your diaper. Oh, you're still crying. Your diaper is dry, you know, I'll just hold you and we're but it's that effort towards looking to meet that need that's really helping with that continuous cycle and reinforcing the idea that I can depend on adults. I can depend on the people in my life, yeah, and that's what I hear you speaking into as far as that organizing goes. Yeah, yes, yes,

Ariadne Brill 12:40
exactly because, like you were saying the parents, we cannot get it right every time. There is no way, precisely, because we are not our baby, and our baby is not us. So it depends on this dynamic and attuned process. So this, this word attunement is great because it's really like, if you have a radio and it's full of static, and you keep turning that dial ever so lightly and gently to figure out where you get the best sound, right, and finally you have it clear, then you're like, Ah, okay, it doesn't bother my ears. It doesn't bother my brain. This is soothing, nice music, and it's a bit like that. As long as the baby has a sense that you are working on that dial, then they are already starting to feel soothed. Because that that dynamic of, okay, you know, I have a belly ache, but they're trying to, like, change my diaper, and they're trying to feed me, but they're with me. Aha, somebody cares. This already starts the soothing process, and then once the need is actually met, then the brain sort of does like, oh, green light. Ding, ding, ding, you win a prize.

Casey O'Roarty 13:49
You get a smile. I might calm down. Let you hold me without stiffening my body. Yes,

Ariadne Brill 13:56
and as long as the parent is willing to do that over and over again, then it's fine. There's no need to get it right. I actually often say to parents, your job is not to get it right. Your job is to willing to try and try and try until you do. It's the minute you give up and say, I am not even going to bother. That is when you're going to deal with trauma, neglect and problems and so really, the dynamic, the dynamic nature of attachment, is that is that it's an interactive process. You need to read the cues, and the baby's going to read your cues. And so there's this, this back and forth. It's, it's, it's, it's not static, it's not baby cries. I give a binky and I walk away. It's baby cries. I look at the baby, I frown instinctively, Oh, you don't seem so well. And then the baby's like, Ah, look at mommy's eyes. They're moving funny. Oh, I think she gets me. Ah, right. So this is a it's a really beautiful process, if you get to observe like a baby and a child when it's not your own. Yeah, because it just gives you that insight of just how dynamic and subtle this attunement can be. Because sometimes it's really just like the smallest of looks is enough to settle that baby, and other times it's really like a big message, like, why this is not working and you're getting it all wrong. But even that, there's learning in that process, because the parent can learn to say, I got it wrong, but eventually my baby calmed, and this wires the parents brain to say, I'm able, even in the toughest of moments, I am able, and it wires the baby to think I am safe. I can trust this person, because even though they couldn't figure it out, they didn't give up on me.

Casey O'Roarty 15:39
Right? Oh, I almost that almost gives me that little bitty feeling like I want a baby again, almost, but just talking, just remembering, yeah, that moment, and I think it's Dan Siegel who talks about babies feeling, felt Yes, right? Is he the one that talks about that? So that mirror when we, you know the difference between, well, not the difference, but that, that that moment when we're looking at them, and even if it's just like, we have to dry, I know you hate the car seat. Oh, I know it baby, and we have to go to the store, so we're just even though they're just babies right flailing around, hating the car seat, but just that, the mirroring that we're doing almost of their expression and and they get that sense of feeling, felt and isn't that where we begin the process of teaching empathy? Yes,

Ariadne Brill 16:35
absolutely. This is. It wires the brain, basically, to to want to understand other people's brains. So there's this, this, it's like my it's this mind, mindness, basically, you have this ability to see that that human interaction isn't just about caring for yourself. I'm hungry, therefore I must be fed. But I'm hungry, somebody understands that I am hungry, and so they can feed me. And then I am uncomfortable in my car seat. I don't want to do this now. Mom is frowning. She knows that I don't want to be in my car seat. Someday I will grow and be able to know, you know, my brother is hurt, and I know what being hurt feels like. Mom gave me a cold pack. I'm going to go get ice for my brother, and so, yeah, it's a whole wiring. And like we were talking about before, it organizes your brain to take these inputs, and, you know, on a very chemical level, to sort out these, these feelings and inputs, and then put them all into place. And like you said, it pre wires for empathy, for working together, for cooperation, for later, you know, having a family dinner and being able to understand that, you know, different people speak at different times. It's, it's when this attachment process doesn't happen that you're going to end up with dysfunctional or slightly off behaviors that go, why this person just doesn't get it?

Casey O'Roarty 18:06
And yeah, and it's not that they can't, or it's not that they won't. It's that just missing skill. Yes,

Ariadne Brill 18:12
it's, it's absolutely that is the perfect word. It's a missing skill. It's a it's a misfiring basically, that didn't take place at a critical point. And yeah, and I say critical, but it's not in the sense like we talked before, if you make mistakes, then you've doomed your child, because really, this takes place in the first five years. And so it it's critical in the sense that if we are attuned and willing to do this work, then, you know, you have a good enough outcome, or, you know, developmentally optimal outcome,

Casey O'Roarty 18:42
yeah. And I think that everything has its dark side, right? So, like, I mean, I know, for me, I read a lot about attachment parenting. I had the DR Sears baby book on the coffee table. Loved him. And I think that, you know, there's extremes of everything, right? I mean, my first was in the sling on the boob, like 80% of the day co slept, um. And I wonder, I mean, she's highly functioning almost 13 year old now, um. And I wonder what kinds of I wonder what the disservice was to her, to be so so attentive, because she was not, she wouldn't go to anybody else. And part of that, I think, is temperament as well. And I tried to just really understand her needs and meet her cues, but I also just didn't know how to not like I remember. I couldn't figure out how to wean her, so I just didn't. I didn't know how to get her into her own bed, so I just didn't. I just, per you know, I just endured, even though I knew I wasn't sleeping well. And ultimately, what happened is I had my second baby. Me, and she just got the shaft and just had to live with it, and it all worked out in the end and was okay. And I'm sure there were plenty of moments there where I was trusting myself, trusting my gut and trusting my daughter. I just wonder too about, like, how do we know? Where is there? Where's the balance?

Ariadne Brill 20:20
Okay, yeah, so balance is, like a phenomenal word, because a lot of what I talk to parents about fostering attachment is it's you have to be like a really good tour guide, all right, if you, if you think about that, you've landed in in a city that you have absolutely never been to before, but that is where you have to spend, you know, your next several weeks, or whatever, the rest of your life, you need to have a willingness to work together with with that tour guide. Because as as the tour guide, a bad one, will just decide this is what you have to see, and this is where you have to eat. But you know, for all you know, you have a food intolerance, and that restaurant is no good for you. And now what like? It's their idea, not yours, and you're not going to like it. You'll instinctively reject it if it's not your idea, right?

Casey O'Roarty 21:09
Is this the tour so who's the tour guide? The

Ariadne Brill 21:11
tour guide is the parent for the tour guide is a parent.

Casey O'Roarty 21:16
Just check, yes. Okay, go ahead. Keep going.

Ariadne Brill 21:19
So so if the parent is going to be a really good tour guide, they're not going to just tell the child what to do, how to do, when to do, you know, follow my my schedule and everything that I've said, because then this poor baby is going to be like bouncing around and exhausted because it gets to make zero choices, right? A good tour guide listens and responds, right? You're knowledgeable. You have the wisdom, but you also have the mind side, the ability to say, okay, you know, when I offer this, this is the response. It's positive, it's negative, it's working, it's not working. And so you have to have this willingness to work together. So if we bring it back to the idea of a parent and a child, the parent is going to be leading the way with the idea that the baby is dependent and vulnerable, but also very capable, because dependency and vulnerability does not stripe away your capability.

Casey O'Roarty 22:20
Oh, talk more about that. I love that dependent, dependent and vulnerable. It doesn't

Ariadne Brill 22:25
mean that you're not capable. It just means that you need some guidance and and somebody who's willing to show you the way and to facilitate. I love the word facilitate, because me too. You know you can talk about facilitating or scaffolding. You're doing the small steps, but you're always checking back in. You're crying. The baby's crying. You think the baby's hungry. You offer it something to eat. The baby doesn't want to eat. Well, you don't keep forcing the food. Right? Your your dynamic, attuned response is to say, food, isn't it? What else can I do? And so that is what is going to bring you to the idea of balance. When you're willing to do that, it's not the book tells me that I should be co sleeping, therefore we're going to be co sleeping while the baby doesn't sleep very well, and I wake up backache if things aren't going so good, but the book says that it really should be co sleeping, then you're not listening to your needs and the baby's needs. You're going by just the book, which maybe the book works for 90% of, I don't know. You know, you take 10 parents and nine parents say, Okay, this is perfect. But if you are that one parent who says co sleeping doesn't work for me. That's not gonna make or break your attachment,

Casey O'Roarty 23:43
right? Well, and I'm also thinking about balance too, between that dance of baby's needs versus parents needs. And I think that's what you're talking about, you know, especially with the example of co sleeping, because I've worked with tons of parents who just don't sleep well with baby or toddler in the bed, and other parents that that's, you know, the extreme of that, where the parent kind of comes to me after parent class and says, you know, I've been co sleeping, and now my kid's 10, and I can't get them out of my bed. So I think that there's, like, a variety, there's a range, and then I think we get is it about how difficult it is for us as the parent, to see our child in any kind of discomfort? Is that that's the problem often?

Ariadne Brill 24:31
Yes, because we know that they are vulnerable, but we forget that they're capable, so it's all right if they are feeling upset, but we also need to remember that they're capable of overcoming that upset with our attuned response. I'm here for you so you don't like this, and I will sit with you while you don't like it, and then you will feel it, get over it and move forward. You. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 25:00
I know Jane Nelson talks a lot about that too. She speaks into that as well, and about, you know, and it's funny, I got much deeper into this work once my older child was, like, three or four, and I just was like, Oh my gosh, the message I gave was, the world is scary. Stay in the sling. And, you know, clearly you can't go to sleep on your own, so just be all this lay right here attached literally to you. So how do we lean into their capabilities when it's when we're also rubbing up against that instinct to just want to keep them from that discomfort. What do you tell parents?

Ariadne Brill 25:47
So, yeah, babies really are very capable, and a lot what I see with parents, and I work with parents, is the idea of being respectful of that capability and and really inviting it, inviting that capability to show up from the very beginning. You know, it comes with respecting when, when they're when they're full, like when they've had enough to eat, respecting when they show you that they're tired, changing their soil diapers right away, but not in a startling way. You know. Just imagine, you know, you're all warm and fuzzy in your bed, and somebody comes and yanks the covers off of you, you know, I don't think that, yes, most people would not say, hey, thanks so much for yanking the covers away. You know, must be like, Yo, what are you doing? Hey, I was sleeping.

Casey O'Roarty 26:40
Yeah. Are we talking about husbands? Are we? Oh, I'm sorry, yes, it's annoying and startling, right?

Ariadne Brill 26:47
Old and so so often we think, you know, it's a baby. It can't talk, it can't it can't do much. What's the point? I'll just decide everything for it. But really, it's not an IT, it's a baby. It's a being, and it's so capable, and it's worthy of our respect and our attention, and so we invite the baby to participate in every aspect of its own care, because really, that's what it's going to grow into. So it's we don't demand that they be independent. We don't make them become dependent. We foster interdependence.

Casey O'Roarty 27:21
Yeah, love that

Ariadne Brill 27:22
we help them. We we've again, going back to the tour guide. We pave the way. We can be dynamic and attentive, pay attention to their needs, but the whole time with the idea that they are, that our babies are respectful and capable of participating, they are active in their own lives, and so we foster that sense. And of course, we're not going to always get it right, but it really just starts even when a little newborn baby gazes at the mom's face while it's breastfeeding and sort of, you know, puts the hand on the breast, or puts the hand on the hand of the mom's bottle feeding and and you engage in that. You don't ignore it or chat with somebody else and shout, hey, I'll have some pizza for takeout. Like, yeah, sure. That can happen because it's, you know, tiring and stressful. But if you just pause enough to really gaze back at that gaze right? And then, when they're three months old and they're smiling at you, you smile back, you don't look at your phone. It's so tempting, but it's not a matter of doing it 100% of the time, perfect. It's about being mindful enough to say, okay, my baby is smiling at me, and I'm going to take this opportunity to just smile back, and my baby's learning to COO, and I'm going to kubac and all these interactions, they wire for attachment, and they wire for well being, and they wire for capability,

Casey O'Roarty 28:48
nice. So I was thinking about, and I was thinking about this interview with you, Ariadne, you wise, wise woman. I was thinking about just, you know, some of the stuff, the crazy stuff that shows up, that showed up when I was when I had babies, and everybody wants to tell you, you know, what they think, and you know that idea around, you know, you don't want to spoil the baby. And so I googled that to see, like, what is the, what is kind of the popular belief around that. And came to this article from Parents Magazine, which sometimes I get excited about Parents Magazine and sometimes I don't, but I thought this was a really interesting article. And what the author talks about is really, there's meeting the infants. Well, something that's spoken into is meeting during the first six months. It's impossible to spoil a baby, you know, really, we're just meeting their needs, meeting their needs, meeting their needs, fed, held, changed, comforted, all that good stuff. And then in the second, you know, beyond that six month mark, you know. When we can, we can start to kind of, you know, developmentally appropriately set some boundaries. And, you know, and I really want to emphasize developmentally appropriately set boundaries, because we're talking about, like a six month old. But like is, would you say that, like, six months is a turning point, as far as you know, if you're going to think about transitioning to a crib, or if you're going to think about just kind of allowing, you know, a slightly longer bits of discomfort for baby. Is there a magical is that like a magical number, that six month number? Or what do you find in your studies? So does that make sense? Yes,

Ariadne Brill 30:50
that it. I like your question. Um, what? I'll what I'll preface this is that I'm a big believer in in understanding that babies are unique, not in the sense that we should spoil and say you are the best, most special baby in this whole wide world, and I will give you everything you want, end of story, but unique in the sense that we have charts and guides to tell us when, milestones and what. But still, every individual baby based on their attachment story, on their parents, attachment story on their genetics, on their temperament they will develop when they are ready. So you can have even babies from the same family who are vastly different from one another. I often tell the parents that I work with how lucky I feel to have had had three children with three very different personalities, because it's very easy for a parent to believe, you know, my kids did it this way, so yours can too.

And the reality is, is that each child will really develop at their pace. Sure there is a curve that we can follow for, you know, safety, to make sure certain things need to happen in a in a spectrum, or, like, on a certain line, in a fashion. But really, you're going to have some variants. So you might have a baby who, at six months old, is perfectly able to tolerate a little bit more frustration than a baby who, at eight months, can absolutely not take the frustration whatsoever. And this can be because their attachment story is different, or because the the way that they were responded to was just different. There might have been an incident that wired them in such a way that to them to be alone at eight months is way scarier and way more horrible than for a baby at six months. So you know, do you let a baby cry themselves to sleep so that they don't get spoiled? Like this article that you were referencing suggests this is something that the parent really is best to understanding their baby, where their baby is at, making a decision based on what does mom need? What does dad need? What does baby need? What are they able to do? Going back to that dynamic, attuned response. So I'm not giving I'm not really giving you like a sure six months is the ideal age, because I don't believe that that's possible. It's more of a, you know, yes, between six and eight months, you know, babies are getting into the realm of language and social milestones. So you can have like this, you know, a bit of an exchange with them, and they seem so much more capable. But that's a bit of a trap because, because at six to eight months old, their brains are very, very vulnerable to this attachment story, and so being attuned at this age is very important.

Casey O'Roarty 33:54
Oh, man. And I have to say, I did not. I just kind of skimmed this article and really liked the first half and did not realize that the end he's saying, if you already have tried every sleep inducing nightly ritual, crying it out might be the only way ill. Yeah, all I can say about that is ill. However, there's lots of other ways to support healthy sleep, and actually, Alana McGinn was on the podcast not too long ago talking about some of those ways, so we don't have to get too much into that. But, you know, I think that too. I know for me, trusting my gut was such a big piece of it. But also I'm totally going off script here. But also it was, you know, all we really have going into it is what was modeled for us. And I heard you say, you know, it's not just the baby's attachment story, but it's also the parents attachment story. So if I'm a parent who's who didn't receive the gift of feeling felt as a small child, it's not necessarily, it may not be. In my repertoire when I end up having my own children. So I really appreciate that there are resources like what you do and the organization that you work for, and I know that there's resources all over the world for parents. And you know, I just think it's so great when we're willing to keep learning, when we're willing to say, I don't know everything, there is more to learn. And I'm excited to get better at showing up for my babies and my toddlers and my school agers and my teenagers, because there's so much to learn in relationship with them, not only from them, but, you know, from people that really spend a lot of time studying the nuances of the brain and how we develop and what's happening under the surface. I'm so appreciative of that. So as we kind of come to a close in this conversation. Ariadne, thank you so much. First of all, for everything. What are your words of wisdom for parents out there? Because I know that most of the time we talk about, especially new parents, the conversation is generally about how amazing it is, right? How amazing our babies are, how amazing it is to finally get to be a parent. And there isn't a lot of conversation about the fact that there are really tough times, you know, for me, they showed up in the middle of the night when I couldn't lay down because my babies wouldn't be soothed, and I felt like I was the only person awake in the world. Yeah, you know, and, and we don't really talk very much about those times where it's like, Why did I think this was a good idea? So for those moments, right? For those really tough days, tough periods of time, you know when that first cold, or that first the first time your your baby gets an earache, you know, what are some words of wisdom that you can leave the listeners with, just to help them get through that, that period, and to remember that there's another side. Well,

Ariadne Brill 37:06
the the big thing I can say, you know, I relate so much to what you just said, because the first years they they really are so special, but special in the sense that there's really a lot of wonderfulness and joy. But boy, there are so many challenging moments when you really think, like, who thought it was a good idea to have one of these? Right?

Unknown Speaker 37:29
Yeah, put it back, but, but

Ariadne Brill 37:31
I can, I can honestly say that that it's hard, because if you also really enjoy being your mom in those first years, a lot of parents will look at you like, I don't know what planet you are on or you got like a special baby, because it's not that easy. And so I want to say that really, it's okay to feel whatever you need to feel about those early days, because I remember loving being like a mom to a baby every, every single time, like I've had three so that first year with each of three babies was truly, for me, such a happy time. Like I really enjoyed it. I'm not saying that there weren't crazy difficult times, but I generally felt happy about it, but I had nobody to say that to, because if I kind of mentioned, oh, it's so nice to have a newborn baby, you know, I I just remember these other moms with newborn baby sort of looking at me like you're crazy. It's so tough. It's just so awful, and bickering about it was so much nicer, because then somebody gets how hard it is. But then I have heard from you know, moms who come to the groups that that I'm so fortunate and privileged to facilitate that they'll say how much they really do love it, and they feel alone that they can't share that, that wonderfulness of being a mom with and so I like to take not one side or the other, but to say it's okay to feel whatever you need to feel about those days. Because if you love it, that's wonderful. And if you're having a hard time, that's fine, too. And if you kind of balance between the two, that's so normal, like today, I love being a mom, and in that very second that you feel that your baby sort of spits up on you, and dinner starts to burn, and the doorbell rings and the dog is barking, and you're like, right? It wasn't a good idea to have one of these. That's okay too, yeah. And not only is it okay to feel whatever it is that you need to feel about that, it's really important to find somebody who's willing to listen. It's a support group, or if it's your spouse, or if your spouse and you are having a hard time finding somebody that will help you, or partner, spouse, or you know, whoever is helping you raise the baby, it's it's really good if you have a support circle so that you can, so that you are better prepared to respond dynamically and attuned, and so that when you can't, you feel comfortable passing the torch on and saying, right now, I need a break, and somebody else needs to be responsive and attuned to baby. And that is okay, too.

Casey O'Roarty 40:00
Yeah, yeah. And time moves on, even when it feels like you're trapped in a time warp and it's the middle of the night and it's really dark and alone, time marches on. I can't believe that I have a 10 and a nearly 13 year old. And how old are your kids? Are you about

Ariadne Brill 40:19
to say My oldest is soon to be 10, and then I have a seven year old and a five year old. So, yeah, it does.

Casey O'Roarty 40:28
So they're babies for a while, and then they get to be toddlers. And then, you know, just every little era has its own special flavor, doesn't it? Yes, it's

Ariadne Brill 40:40
a bit cheesy to say, you know that it flies by and stuff. And in a sense, it really does, but in a very realistic sense, that first year with baby is is incredibly slow.

Casey O'Roarty 40:54
You don't think it's you're ever gonna I was just saying to my husband, we were out to eat with the kids, and I was looking around, there was a couple different families with really young kids. And I said, you know, daddy, and I used it, we used to take you guys out to dinner when you were really little. And we would look around at the families with, you know, teenagers or pre teens, and we'd think, oh my gosh, it'll be so crazy one day to be sitting down with our huge

Ariadne Brill 41:19
kids, right? Like now we have the tall ones, yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 41:23
Now we are those families. It's wild. So yeah, it's all good, all of it. It's just, it's such a fun adventure. And thank you so much Ariadne for coming back on the show and talking more with me. And I love just this whole topic of babies and attachment and brain development. So I So, so appreciate the time that you've taken. Now, Ariadne is on the other side of the world from me, so it's like coming on 10 o'clock over there. Where you are, right? Yep, correct. But that's remind me where you are. Are you in Switzerland? I

Ariadne Brill 41:55
am in Switzerland.

Casey O'Roarty 41:56
Oh my gosh. Are you in Are you in the Alps and, like, a small, little chateau? So I

Ariadne Brill 42:02
do, believe it or not, I can see the Alps every day. It's absolutely breathtakingly gorgeous. And we do live in a very sort of quaint ish area. Today, my children got to see little baby lambs.

Casey O'Roarty 42:14
Oh my gosh. I've seen pictures of your children on like, small little mountain paths, and I'm like, Are you singing? The hills are alive with sound of music right now, because that's all I'm hearing when I look at these pictures.

Ariadne Brill 42:27
Okay, but we do also have shopping malls and cars, okay, okay, and television and, you know? So we do the we have a bit of a mix of city and mountain living, so it's a really beautiful mix. So

Casey O'Roarty 42:41
that sounds amazing. So remind everybody who isn't already following you, where are the places that parents can follow your work and stay in touch

Ariadne Brill 42:52
with you? So my website is the positive parenting connection, which is positive parentingconnection.net, and then on Facebook, you can find the community page, which is facebook.com/positive, parenting connection. And I'm also on Twitter. By my name Ariadne brill. The handle is positive underscore parent. And I'm on Pinterest too, but I'm not sure how to I'll put it wrong. So yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 43:26
I'll put a link to your Pinterest page. I'll put a link to all of your pages as well. So listeners just, yeah, just head to the show notes, and you'll see all the different ways that you can get in touch with Ariadne, thank you so much. Thank

Ariadne Brill 43:41
you Casey,

Casey O'Roarty 43:41
so love having you on the show. Can't wait for next time. Thank you

so much. Awesome information in that interview. What a what an honor it is to share space with Ariadne brill. She just brings so much wisdom to the parenting journey. I am thrilled that she came back on the show. Everything that we discussed, all the links will be in the show notes, so check that out. Thank you so much for continuing to tune in. I really, really, really, really appreciate each and every one of you and your feedback and your comments and all the emails and Facebook messages that I get. It's just an honor to get to share this with you. Yay. On that note, feel free to subscribe to the podcast if you don't already have an app on your phone and aren't already getting automatically the new episodes, then go to your your app store and find a podcasting app and download. It to your phone. And then once you've done that, just search for the joyful courage parenting podcast I am on iTunes, and once you have subscribed, you get to automatically get all the new shows that I'm creating. So it's really fun and easy. So do that as always. I love, love, love your feedback. So if you want to hit me up and write an iTunes review, that would be great, you can head on over to the live and love with joyful courage facebook group page. Ask to join. I will accept. You can be part of the discussion there, or you are always welcome to email me at Casey at joyful courage.com check out the website, www.joyfulcourage.com I've got a bunch of offers. There a calendar with live events as well as online offers. So I have e courses, and I have a blog. I also offer one on one coaching. The last podcast episode was a little flavor, a little taste of that with Stephanie. So yeah, think about it. Think about if you'd like to work at a whole nother level with me, because I am available. I'm for hire, and I'm looking forward to the next podcast episode. I actually have another bonus coming out later this week. I had the privilege of speaking to Allison suraki from the carry the future organization. And I figure it would be good to couple that episode with this one, because we're talking about baby carriers and specifically what carry the future is doing for refugee families that are showing up on the shores of Greece. And it's was a fabulous interview, so fun and enlightening and emotional, and I just think they're an amazing organization, so stay tuned later this week that will be going live. All right, my friends, thank you so much again for listening in, and I hope that each and every one of you has an easy, breezy, beautiful day with your families. Get a little self care. Drink lots of water, take care of yourself so you can show up well for your families. Big, huge love from me. Bye,

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