Navigating Power Struggles with Debbie Zeichner

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 24

Hey, listeners, welcome back to the podcast. I'm really excited. Today's show is all about power struggles. Hmm, I can't imagine that any of you have ever experienced any power struggles with your children or your spouse or your own parents. Perhaps, I think that power struggles are part of the human experience. I think that some of us feel as though we have it all figured out, and so if everyone would just do what we said, then life would be a lot easier. But it turns out that other people have that same thing in mind. And so when we come together, say, a mom and her 10 year old son, or a mom and her nearly 13 year old daughter, when we come together, you know, it creates a power struggle. And by the way, it takes two people to be in a power struggle, right? That's important to remember. So a lot of times I hear parents and I myself might complain about, you know, how difficult it is and challenging it is, and if our kids would just back down. Well, we are a part of the problem. News flash, so, um Yeah. So today I get to talk to Debbie segner, and she is a licensed clinical social worker and a parent coach who specializes in working with adults and children and families, and has done that for over 18 years. She is somebody I met through the positive discipline Association. She is a fellow positive discipline parent educator, and she works with families one on one, and does live classes and works in schools. So she's kind of awesome. And today we're talking all about power struggles, how to avoid them, how to gracefully exit them. And you know, a lot of what we do proactively can help us to not find ourselves in power struggles. So yeah, we're gonna talk about that. So listen up. Okay, and I'm excited too, because I shared with you last episode about bringing on some real life parents to do some parent coaching that everyone can listen in on, because one person's problem is every person's problem, and that's going to come out next week. So I'm not going to do two episodes a week because you are parents, and you're probably having a hard enough time keeping up with the weekly episodes, but I am gonna have one or two bonus episodes each month to highlight the parent coaching, to highlight the world changers that are making a difference in the lives of parents. But I'm not gonna do two episodes a week because that is crazy town, and I don't know who I think I am. Like, I have a million hours a week to create podcasts. No, I don't. So anyway, look forward to that next week. And funny enough, my parent, who is on the show next week will be talking about power struggles with her three year old. So we'll be getting to revisit this topic in a real life parenting situation. And one last thing, I am not super thrilled with the sound quality of this podcast, but just know, I'm continuously learning and working it out, so I apologize, but you should be able to hear it just fine. So okay, I'm gonna quit talking and let you get to know Debbie. Enjoy the show.

Welcome Debbie Zeichner to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here.

Debbie Zeichner 4:19
I'm so glad to be here. It's an honor and a privilege. Yeah. Me,

Casey O'Roarty 4:24
you are so welcome. Please tell all of my listeners a little bit about yourself, your journey and why you do what you do. Okay,

Debbie Zeichner 4:35
I would love to so i My background is as a licensed clinical social worker. So I previously had a psychotherapy practice where I work with hundreds of families over many years, and I found that in my practice, I always found that the best way to help a child was by supporting the parents. And the funny thing is that when I became a parent myself, I thought I would have it all figured out. I thought I'd know exactly what to do. Yet I just found myself completely overwhelmed with so many more questions and answers. So fortunately, my husband and I were introduced to two amazing parenting courses. One was called redirecting children's behavior, and the other is this fabulous positive discipline. And really, I just found I was so enthused and passionate about what we were learning, the changes that we were seeing in our kids as well as in ourselves, because we certainly changed too. But I knew I found my passion in parenting and parent education, so I decided to give up the psychotherapy part of my practice in order to teach parenting and coach and support parents on their journeys. That's how I'm here.

Casey O'Roarty 5:38
I totally relate to the idea of, I know so much I'm gonna have kids, and it's gonna be so easy for

me.

Easy. Yeah, do you How old are your kids?

Debbie Zeichner 5:53
So I have a nine year old, his name is Evan, and I have a six and a half year old daughter named Chloe,

Casey O'Roarty 5:59
boy and a girl, boy and a girl, yeah. And are they your biggest teachers?

Debbie Zeichner 6:07
They are my biggest teachers. I have those strong willed, passionate kids who I tell myself are my future leaders,

Casey O'Roarty 6:14
right? I recently found myself saying that like, okay, the personality traits will serve them later, and right now, they are very inconvenient for me exactly.

Debbie Zeichner 6:27
And the fact that we can recognize that in the moment and reframe that is awesome. Do you?

Casey O'Roarty 6:33
Is one? Are they both pretty strong willed? They're

Debbie Zeichner 6:37
both very strong willed in their own ways. I to learn that's why I was given these beautiful children.

Casey O'Roarty 6:46
Yeah, well, that's awesome, because today we're going to talk about power struggles we are so when I work with parents, this is at the heart of so many challenges, right? Things like potty you know, the young kids like potty training and getting out the door and getting them to eat and getting them to sleep. But also, as kids get older and you're negotiating homework and chores, and I mean, I haven't had to do this yet, but I imagine curfews and car privileges, you know, I think that power struggles really get us into a lot of mischief with our kids? Where do you find what do you find in your work with parents? How do power struggles show up?

Debbie Zeichner 7:30
So I would say I've seen so many of the same battles, and I feel, I mean, the biggest thing that I get from parents is simply the question of, how do I get my kids to listen? Yeah, secret, what is the magic? You know, what's what's the magic there? And, you know, for many parents, everything seems like a battle. Really, everything, yeah, the moment they wake up to the moment kids go to bed. So I agree with you. I think anything can actually turn into a power struggle.

Casey O'Roarty 7:57
So do you think that the translation of how do I get kids to listen is, ultimately, how do I get my kids to do what I want

Debbie Zeichner 8:05
exactly, yes, how do I get them to obey

Casey O'Roarty 8:09
Right? Right? And then I think that feels really different. I mean, it's one thing to stand up or to, you know, raise your hand a parent class and just say, I just want my kids to listen, rather than I just want my kids to do what I say, right? That's, there's two really different vibes there, right, right?

Debbie Zeichner 8:26
And then we also talk about, kind of changing it a little bit to more the direction of, I'd like to find a way to help my kids want to cooperate. Yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 8:36
I really like the word invitation. Yes. Yeah. That's what I bring up in my classes with my clients as well. It's like, well, you know, we can't force them to do anything. We are raising humans, not robots. We can make things more inviting. Yes,

Debbie Zeichner 8:56
absolutely, absolutely, because it starts with us. That's why we talk a lot about it starts with us,

Casey O'Roarty 9:01
and the key word in power struggle is that power. It might feel like the struggle is the keyword, but really it's power. So tell me, tell me your take on that, a little bit about how power goes up in the parent child relationship, and can get us into the messy struggle,

Debbie Zeichner 9:22
the messiness of it all. Well, I mean, really powers. It's a core, it's a hardwired need that we all have. I mean, parents and kids alike, and I think the struggle really seems to come in when we're both vying for power at the same time. So so many parents feel like they have to win. You know, quote, unquote, they have to win. They have to show the kids who's boss. I mean, it's how many of us were raised, myself included. So it becomes our default. It's what we know. We tend to either parent how we were parented, or we try to go the exact opposite. So I mean, really, what I help parents understand is that such a mindset actually, as you. Mentioned the word, it actually invites resistance, as opposed to cooperation. And cooperation for so many parents, is really the end goal. So I really work to help parents in shifting their mindset, in order to find ways to build that connection with their kids, which in turn, helps to encourage the cooperation that is the end goal. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 10:20
I think connection is so key. I definitely notice when I work with parents, and they're talking a lot about that, like you said earlier, that continuous power struggle, and my when I asked them, you know, when was the last time you had one on one time with that child to get this look of like, what's that? Oh, right. And I noticed too that sometimes it's hard for parents to really believe that just that movement towards building relationship and connection, just that alone, without even dealing with the power struggle behavior

that building of connection filters into all these different areas and creates is part of the proactive creation of of that shift, right? I love that, because that feels way more doable than, Oh my gosh, how am I gonna get them to eat, or how am I gonna get them you know, you feel like it has to be this big change in the child, when really it's a shift in the dynamic of the

Debbie Zeichner 11:36
relationship. Well, that, and I think, and I'm sure you find this as well that you know so many parents, when we talk about that and about building connection and building relationship, and I know a lot of parents will say to me, I know, but it just takes so much effort, and it's so hard, and I'm so busy and I don't have the time, and I say, oh gosh, I get it. I get it. It feels exhausting, and yet, at the same time, let's look at how long it takes to have that special time with your child, or take those few minutes to connect versus how long it takes when you're in the middle of a power struggle, right? So oftentimes we're looking at the difference between five minutes and 25 minutes, right? And so it's where do you want to invest the time? Totally.

Casey O'Roarty 12:18
Yeah, well, and you just wrote a nice short blog post. I love your short blog post. I was trying to be short, and I really appreciate that about power struggles. And you mentioned in that post agendas. So how does our personal agenda get us into power struggles. Talk about that a

Debbie Zeichner 12:43
little well. So we all wake up with these to do lists. You know, I wake up I said, Gosh, you know, I have to return that email. I need to make that phone call. I have to work on that, you know, project, whatever it is, we all wake up with this, including what we need our kids to do. I need my feet get ready. I need them to finish their homework. I mean, pack up so we can be on time. And the reality is that our kids wake up with their own to do list, so it might look a little different than ours, you know, but they may wake up and decide, you know, what, I need to finish that art project I was working on, and now I need to go and build something, you know, before I leave for school. And it's very moment by moment, you know, as you know, they're really in the moment. So the power struggle really seems to come in when we're putting our agenda above our kids, instead of or as opposed to respecting the fact that our kids have these agendas of their very own. So acknowledging their agenda goes so far. So what that might sound like, for example, is, you know, Wow, you're really having fun coloring right now. What are you working on? I see your how much fun you're having, and sign for your bath. What do you think? Should we skip to the bath, or should we crawl there like tigers, right? Older kids, it's the same idea, you know, acknowledging what they're engaged in before making a request. So I always say to parents, you know, if we want our kids to be respectful, because often when we talk about what are the end goals, what are the life skills we want our kids to have? You know, respectful behaviors always on that list. And if we wanted our kids to be respectful, it's so important that we model what that respect not only looks like, but what it feels like. That's

Casey O'Roarty 14:21
so funny, because as I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking about how, how irritated I get when my kids ask me to do something when I'm clearly busy doing something else, and how I say to them, well, actually, maybe I don't say it to them, but now I'm thinking about, I'm going to say it's them like, more likely it is that I will fulfill their request if they're going to approach me with acknowledging like, I see that you're busy with that right now, and I'm wondering if you could help me with this. And. And, you know, and I'm hearing our positive discipline tool, connect, Next, connect, connect, connect before Correct. Or it doesn't even have to be before correct, but connect before we redirect exactly right and how we're really I think it's we're good at that when the kids are really little and we forget how powerful it continues to be. I even recently told my husband, my husband's a power line construction guy, and he goes out on storm work, and he'll send me a text that just says, looks like we're going out for storm tonight. And I am a planner, and I get a super po because I'm like, maybe you should acknowledge how this affects the rest of our family, and I'm not graceful or appreciative, and so I recently asked him, you know, in your delivery, it would help me, like, shift into this new reality of you being gone, if you could just acknowledge that it shakes up what I my vision for the rest of the day, or the next few days, or sometimes it's like two weeks, and he's been doing that, you know? And this is my husband. This is an adult, and it makes such a huge difference, and I can show up better for him, because I feel like my world has some value in relationship to what's happening for him, absolutely as well. And I think that we get this sense of urgency as parents, right? Like, well, this needs to happen now. Like, we need to leave now. So sorry that you're having such a good time playing Legos. Let's move it along, right? Um, and I think that we invite, you know, invitations can go in many directions, and that we invite parents often invite those battles that are exactly what is making them crazy,

Debbie Zeichner 16:54
right? Absolutely. I mean, like you said, it's, it's, we're talking about parenting skills. But as you mentioned, these are relationship skills. I'm sure you find it too. I mean, these are skills that parents are able to use in their work situations and all of their relationships and friendships. And you know, the reality is that we all long to be heard, we all long to be understood. We All Long to be seen. So it's amazing how far that goes? Yeah, when we can kind of let go of our own agenda, not to say that we ignore our needs or that we don't, you know, we don't want to be permissive in terms of our parenting, but when we can put that aside to first acknowledge what our child's experiencing, or it's, again, it's that way of modeling fact and anarchistic relationships,

Casey O'Roarty 17:42
right? Right? Absolutely. And I think that, you know, and then there's so, I know, I, you know, we are both positive discipline parent educators. And I recently heard from one of my clients, and she's got as a three year old, and she said, I we think we're creating a positive discipline monster, because whenever we want him to do this or that, like he responds with the language, you know, and and she also said, I think we're missing the firmness piece. And so when we So, yes, power struggles require two people. Power struggles are about, you know, two people having two different agendas, and it's helpful to connect before we redirect. It's helpful to validate feelings, and we still need them to move it along. So what does firmness look like after you've said, wow, you know that is an amazing Lego boat that you're building, and you've been at it for a while, and dinner is about 10 minutes away. So would you like to leave your boat out as you wash your hands? Or do you want to put it away first? Right? Giving them that choice, sharing the power, and then you have a kid that's, you know, like, I'm not done. I don't want to, right? So it comes time to be firm, which I think there's, you know, some peaceful, Positive parents that it's start. That's where discomfort shows up, because we have this tendency to think about firmness as kind of meanness or listen, you know, like the finger pointing and the furrowed brows and the drop in the voice. So how can we maintain connection and be firm in that moment with our kids, when, yes, their agenda matters, and we're 10 minutes away from dinner and it's it's time to transition. What are some things that you share with parents?

Debbie Zeichner 19:53
I mean, I think one of the things is that, you know, I talk with parents about what their what their goal. Goals are, you know, which is often getting kids to listen, right? So, you know, first we spend time discussing and role playing what it feels like to be ordered around, you know, including looking at our tone of voice, looking at body language, as opposed to being acknowledged. And what we find is that when our kids feel heard and understood, when it feels like we get them, they're more likely to listen, so percent. So in those cases where they are being more resistant, there's a few things. One, I mean, one of the biggest tools that I recommend is looking for those win wins, looking for solutions. You know, gosh, you're just, you are really enjoying this time, and, you know, enjoying the time coloring or whatever it is, you know. And you know, it's getting time for dinner. So, you know, I need you to get ready for dinner and you want to keep coloring. Gosh, you know, what should we do here?

Casey O'Roarty 20:47
Right?

Debbie Zeichner 20:48
How can we make this work for both of us? What do you think? And so often, just the mere asking is that way of inviting the cooperation. Because, you know, like we talk about in our classes. You know when, when a child asks a question, the brain searches for an answer, right? And so to be able to stop. And sometimes our kids respond to my own kid. You know, I know my son, he was playing on his iPad. I needed him to get off the iPad, because it was probably something like dinner. I was getting so frustrated, and so rather than launch into this attack on him, I decided to just say, Listen, I'm stuck. I'm totally stuck. You really want to keep playing on your iPad. I need you to get ready. What do we do? How do we make this work for both of us? And I was surprised, because he said, you know, Mom, I'm just you're asking to do I'm in the middle of the game. There's two minutes, look, there's two minutes left on this basketball shot clock. As soon as I'm done, I'll go do it. And I said, You know what? That's awesome. That totally works for me. I really appreciate it awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your help. And that was it. But had I kind of kept in there, I don't want to do it, you know? So sometimes we just need to stop and just check in and ask for help and ask for help and just say, I'm stuck. You know, I'm stuck. What do we do here? Yeah, and

Casey O'Roarty 22:02
I hear you. I love that, because even as I was asking that question to you, I felt like that parent who, yeah, but yeah, but what about this? What about this? Right? And remembering the power of trusting, the process of trusting our kids, of trusting relationship, of not being so caught up in what do i What do I say to get them to do what I want, rather than like, like that feels really narrow, right? Like, what do I do to get them to do what I want, rather than how can I be in relationship and move us forward, right? And so I really appreciate that. Um,

Debbie Zeichner 22:49
so what, I think also, some parents feel as though, you know, there's this tendency to sort of avoid this, because they feel it's going to

Casey O'Roarty 22:57
accept their kids, yep, yep, well, they're going to be

Debbie Zeichner 23:00
mad, or they're going to have a tantrum, or they're going to freak out, or they're going to start talking about, you know, so there's this kind of avoidance that happens, as opposed to, you know. So what happens if your kid has a tantrum, right? You know, it's being okay with that. It's okay for your child to have a chance. It's okay for your kid to have that meltdown, so long as they're not hurting you or hurting somebody else. That's also where we have to be okay with allowing our kids to be disappointed. It's not our job to please them. It's our job to give them the tools and the skills that they need to be able to manage themselves, right? So oftentimes, okay, so that's what I say to that. Yes. So

Casey O'Roarty 23:34
let's talk a little bit about those kids that have those tantrums, and mom and dad parents are caregivers, are just avoiding that,

I am I, you know, I find that so interesting, because, especially In the context of power, right? Because where's the power there, right? And it's not. We don't want our kids to have power. It's again, coming back to shared power. And my response is always, how great that you know when the tantrum comes, that you know what triggers the tantrum. Why not have a conversation with your child about that trigger and explore doing something new, doing something different, noticing the body practicing self regulation, right? Because avoiding the tantrum is not building any skills for your child either. So I think that's really interesting, too, and it's exhausting, and we have to trust that and recognize like life with a three year old is not the same as life with a five year old or life with an eight year old or life with a 12 year old, right? Although there are some similarities between those toddlers and teens, what are some of. Away. So, yeah, so toddlers and teens, they're both so power driven, right? And as a personal practice, when I feel tense with my one month away from being a teen daughter, that is a tip off to me that I'm in or or about to venture into a power struggle, where I know that when I'm tense and clenched like literally, my body clenches, and my shoulders come in, and it's like my whole body is a fist when I go there, when I'm at my best, and recognize that I'm there in the moment, which is a whole other skill in and of itself, recognizing I'm there and saying, okay, just like you said with your son in the iPad, where can I share power right now? Or how can I, at least, like, take that fist and open up for more possibilities for moving forward. So what are some ways that you encourage parents to share power, either in or out of the actual power struggle. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Debbie Zeichner 26:07
yeah, there. So yes, I just did a power struggle workshop last night, and one of the things that we talk about is actually my 10 tips for managing power struggles. So kind of picking my favorites, I would say choices, offering limited choices are really, really helpful. Because, you know, we talked earlier about that need for control, so choices are awesome, because who doesn't like to feel a sense of control and power? So offering limited choices is something that we recommend, and humor is another one I find that, as parents, we're so serious these days and so, I mean, as far as our kids are concerned, it doesn't look very fun to be an adult. I mean, we're running around from one thing to the next. So I think we need to remember that that humor and play we play is really our kids language. Often we're just speaking two completely different languages. So when we can remember to join them where they are and be playful. So, you know, with my daughter, she's little strong willed, little little chickadee, and I remember we were in the morning. Is that's my most stressful time. I'm an on time kind of person. I don't like to be late. The last step in our routine was her to put her shoes on. And I remember saying to her, Chloe, it's time to put your shoes on. Of course, she's coloring. She completely ignored me, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she didn't hear me and move a little closer, Chloe, it's time to put your shoes on. She gives me that little smirk, again, completely ignoring me. My patience is just dropping rapidly. So I'm like, What am I gonna do here? And so I walk into the other room, took a deep breath, and for whatever reason, I just chose to be silly. I don't know what I just one of the tools I chose. So in that moment, I went into the other room, I took out my hands, and I said, here comes the tickle monster who gets little girls who don't put on their shoes. Yeah, and there she was laughing and giggling, so she's got on so quickly. And what was awesome about that is that I felt better. She felt better. I didn't feel like that, nagging mom at the end of the day, she cooperating. We got out the door. So I love

Casey O'Roarty 28:16
that. I love when I remember humor and lightness like exactly. And

Debbie Zeichner 28:20
it's hard. I mean, it's hard a lot of parents would say, but it's hard to get so creative in those moments. And you don't have to be that creative, you don't have to be that creative. And I think, you know, it's hard, it is hard. So it's just the more we practice it, the more we try it, the more we experiment with it, and we see that it actually is so effective, then I think it just becomes just one of those other tools in our toolbox that we can bring out. And you know, that was one thing that really worked with her, and I know, especially with older kids like we talked about a few moments ago, looking for those win wins, you know, so an amazing and awesome way to share power. And you know, kids really long with feels, you know we talk about in classes, you know, they want to feel significant, yeah, like they matter, like they mean something, like they have something to contribute. And so asking for their ideas, asking for their help is makes a huge difference. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 29:09
Um, so that 10 tips for avoiding power struggles is that a handout. That is a handout? Would you can we put it in the show notes? We

Debbie Zeichner 29:18
can certainly put it in the showdown, awesome. So listeners,

Casey O'Roarty 29:22
be sure to look in the show notes for that from Debbie, because that sounds like a great refrigerator.

Debbie Zeichner 29:31
Refrigerator. Tip sheet. Tip sheet, perfect.

Casey O'Roarty 29:32
So if the listener, if a listener, was going to take one step today, towards releasing the power struggles or beginning the process right? Because I always want to be sure to say there's really that nothing that we can do to never find ourselves in power struggles, because we are humans, raising humans. None of us is the Dalai Lama um. And so it gets messy and emotional, and we'll find ourselves there if we are going to take one step today towards starting the process of releasing some of the power struggles in our homes. What would you suggest as a starting point?

Debbie Zeichner 30:16
I always start by focusing on connection. That's always my starting point that can look there's many forms to that. I mean, one is just that, one on one time. You know, it's one of the best ways to connect. It's realizing that there's so much more to behavior than meets the eye, so much underneath the surface. So often as parents, we just kind of focus on the behavior itself, because we just want it to stop, like, hey, just listen already. And so the other place to start is really by focusing on that inner chatter, that self talk, that dialog that we have. I know for me when my kids aren't listening, and if I were to sort of take a snapshot of what was going through my mind, it might sound something like, oh my god, are you kidding me? I cannot believe we're dealing with this again. I can't handle this enough, you know, all of that,

Casey O'Roarty 31:07
or why are you doing this to me? Why

Debbie Zeichner 31:09
are you doing this to me? And what's wrong with him? You know, I had a parent say to me last night, you know, I just worry that my child's going to become a sociopath. Oh, yeah, so that's what. So when you're telling yourself, my child's going to become a sociopath, then we can't we tend to behave in ways that you know doesn't really foster what it is that we're hoping to gain. So I think it's important to recognize to really slow down. I have a friend of mine, a colleague of mine, who started something called pause before parenting, which I love, yes,

Casey O'Roarty 31:39
pause. Power of pause, power

Debbie Zeichner 31:42
of the pause. So it's it's recognizing that we kind of talk to ourselves in this way, and choosing to come up with another mantra, choosing to come up with another, something else that we can tell ourselves in this challenging moment. So what I talk to parents about, and a lot of this comes from Dr Laura Markham, who's a big parenting her is, you know, telling ourselves, you know this isn't an emergency. No, I can handle this. My child's acting like a three year old because she is a three year old. I know for me, my mantra is, is connection before correction? Or my mantra is really focused, just connect. I'll tell parents take post it notes and put them around the house, just to remind you to connect, even if putting post it notes around your house to remind yourself just to breathe,

Casey O'Roarty 32:30
to kind of I'm a post it note girl, yeah, post it notes

Debbie Zeichner 32:35
just to slow it down. So I think really releasing the struggle involves first looking at our role in the struggle. And as you mentioned earlier, it takes two. It takes two to tango. We can't have a power struggle with one. So it's really about realizing we don't have to engage. Yeah, we can step out and, you know, again, focusing on what's beneath the behavior. So, so what that goodness is in your child, because what a child is experiencing in those moments, you know, it's not good or bad, it's not right or wrong, it's just, it's what is really what is. So it's focusing on that relationship, focusing on the connection first, is kind of the path. I love, that encouragement and connection,

Casey O'Roarty 33:18
yeah. And I think that everything you said kind of comes into one, like taking the pause, like noticing the react like, the the reaction right, the body, reaction of like, or that tension, and then taking a moment. And something that I like to invite parents into as well, is asking that question of, you know, what's, what's the opportunity here? Like, if there are teachers, and we're really quick to say, our kids are our teachers, so guess when they're teaching us, not when everything is going really well? Like, that's like, recess, you know, that's like, right? That's easy peasy. We've already, you know, that's the review of the chapters. You know from last year, when it gets really tough and challenging, that's the opportunity. That's when they're teaching us, because that's when it becomes like, Wow, can I show up as my best when I'm emotionally triggered? So,

Debbie Zeichner 34:16
and that's what we're that's what we want to model. Yeah, it's that same be it to teach it. So, you know, here we are. We expect our kids to hold it together and be calm and be rational. Yet oftentimes, we ourselves are flipping out, right? I can't just listen to me already. It's modeling what calm looks like and what it feels like, right?

Casey O'Roarty 34:36
And by the way, listeners, I hope that you're getting the message here that even the parent educators, yeah, this is active work for all of us, all of us. So Debbie, where can people find you and follow your work?

Debbie Zeichner 34:51
So my website is Debbie Zeichner, lcsw.com, show notes. Thank you. I also there's a. Spelling in there. I also have a Facebook page, Debbie Zeichner, LCSW, parent coach. That would be the best place to check me out. Awesome, awesome. Well, thank

Casey O'Roarty 35:09
you so much, and I'm going to put that 10 tips in the show notes listeners, so be looking at that. And Debbie, I can't wait for the next time

Debbie Zeichner 35:17
we get to talk. Thanks, Casey, thank you so much for having me, it was a blast. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 35:30
there you go. Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About power struggles from Debbie zeigner and me so listeners, friends, I hope that you got plenty out of that conversation. Check out the show notes, for the links mentioned and for the avoiding power struggles. Handout. If you have any questions or thoughts or feedback, you can always email me Casey at joyful courage.com and if you're loving the show, please head over to iTunes, give me that five star rating and let me know, and others know why they should be listening in. I am in love with this medium for getting my message out, so thank you for being on the other end of it and listening in. I'm excited to see you and all of our discussions on the live in love with joyful courage Facebook page. So if you haven't made your way over there, it's a it's a closed group for like minded parents who are interested in living and loving with joyful courage. I'm there a lot, and there's a great community of people. So if you haven't joined in, feel free to do so, and my friends, have a fantastic week. I'll see you next time

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