Eps 207: Talking Gen Z and Screens with Jaynay C. Johnson

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Hey you guys. The joyful courage audiobook is so close to being available. I know, I know I've been talking about this for the past couple of months and acknowledging that I thought it would be ready to roll out way sooner than now. And it is really, truly, nearly here as a thank you for your purchase, I'm gonna offer the joyful courage companion guide to everyone who purchases the audiobook through the month of November. The companion guide is like a little workbook that you can download and print out, and it was created to support you in taking the learning offered in the book and integrating it into your life, because that is really where the magic happens, right? So I'm super, super excited I will be sending out an email the minute I am informed that the audiobook is available on Audible and you can get the free companion guide after your purchase at joyful courage.com/free. Guide. Okay, so if you are not currently on my mailing list, you're going to want to get on there. Go to joyful courage.com/join. Okay, do that. So you're on the list, and then the minute I find out that the book is ready to be purchased on Audible, I will send out an email, and you can get your hot little hands on it, or, I should say, get your earbuds and your hot little ears and you can listen to it right. I am so honored to continue to support you. Thank you for all the ways that you let me know that the work of joyful courage is making a difference in your life. Big, huge love to each and every one of you. Hey, podcast listeners, welcome to joyful courage. I'm so glad that you're here and listening. Joyful courage is a conscious parenting podcast, a place where I like to bring information and inspiration to the parenting journey. I'm your host, Casey Casey o'rourdy, I am a positive discipline trainer. I'm a parent coach, but most importantly, I am a fellow traveler on the journey of parenting. I am thrilled, thrilled, thrilled that you're listening in this show is all about stepping into the personal growth and development that is always waiting for us here in this era of being mothers, of being fathers of loving the kids that we have while staying lovingly detached from what's showing up in their lives. I know that sounds weird, right? Being detached Tonya, it'll change your life if you can do it. The show is designed to offer you guidance. You can take it, you can leave it. It's a buffet of information. Just listen, right? Just listen. Create your own value. Listen for nuggets that land for you. And if something doesn't, just leave it behind, it's all good. I would love to know what you think. I have many communities that you can join. You can follow me on Instagram or Facebook. You can join in the conversation at live and love with joyful courage on Facebook, or joyful courage for parents of teenagers on Facebook. So I love to be in conversation with my listeners, knowing what's going on in your life and bringing some of what you desire most challenges that you are currently facing, bringing them onto the podcast, bringing them into these conversations, so that I can be in service to you. I really hope that you enjoy this show, and I'm confident that you will Hi podcast listeners. My guest today is Janae C Johnson. Janae is a therapist, speaker and author, dedicating much of her time and energy to serving adolescent girls and their families from suffering from teen depression to being written off by her family and teachers as being just another troubled teen. Janae has always been a firm believer that at any given moment you have the power to say, this is not how the story is going to end. Janae chose to take control of her story, choosing to dedicate her life to uplifting and empowering the leaders of tomorrow. Janae's body of work includes published books, magazine features radio interviews and multiple guest appearances. A lady of elegance, poise, motivation and hope for tomorrow's leaders, Janae embodies an uplifting message and presentation style that she believes the ones coming behind her will need in order to reach. Their greatest potential. I had the privilege of seeing this elegance and poise in action when I sat in on janae's session on raising Generation Z at the diversity and parenting conference in Anaheim this past September, and knew that I wanted to bring janae's voice to the show. Hi, Janae. Welcome to the podcast. Hi,

Jaynay C. Johnson 5:20
thanks for having me. I'm excited about this conversation. Me too.

Casey O'Roarty 5:25
I gave a bit of your story up in that bio, but I would love for you to fill in any gaps of your journey to doing what you do.

Jaynay C. Johnson 5:33
Sure. So you know, kind of growing up as a teen, there just wasn't a lot of conversation around feelings and emotion and what you're supposed to do with them. Although we all know that teenagers have lots of emotion, big emotions, and I was just really confused, even growing up as to like, Why is no one telling me what to do with all of this? And so because of that, I made a lot of decisions to try to fill in those gaps for myself. And of course, as a teenager, I didn't make the best decisions, so I journeyed into psychology and decided that I wanted to be someone that I needed growing up, and that's what I did, and that's what I do. I am the person that I would have loved to have growing up to help me navigate my experiences, and I've worked in such a variety of settings, from inpatient, outpatient, just all kinds of mental health and psychiatric settings, so I feel like I've seen it all, and I've settled right here where I am, and I I'm happy here, but I've seen it all, so it's been an exciting journey. And I think my voice is a unique one, because I'm a millennial, and being a millennial is very different, and working with like Gen Z, I can just speak to them in a different way that I think is very helpful for them. So it's that's exciting. I enjoy it,

Casey O'Roarty 7:06
yeah, well, and I think it's so interesting. So I live with a 16 year old, as my listeners know, because I talk about it, and it's such an interesting thing to witness, right? Because they do have these really deep, profound emotional experiences, which I think a lot of their parents write off as, you know, hormones or teen angst or drama or whatever. So they're having, it seems like this is how I'm making sense of it. It's like, it seems like they're having these profound experiences, but they're also like, relationship wise, and what they're paying attention to seems almost like they're living on a more surface level. So there's these two kind of poles that they seem to have. One being like these really overwhelming emotions, but also like the surfacey, like, why did she look at me like that? And I don't like my body, and does he still like me? And, oh, shit, I think I failed that test. Like things that don't aren't, I mean, I'm judging right, aren't as profound as like, the level of profound is disproportionate, and it's so fascinating to witness. And I'm just always really grateful to anyone that works with the kids in this age group, because I'm working with the parents, you know, and I'm and my own children, but it's just such an interesting time in the human experience, this adolescent period of time. It's wild. It's

Jaynay C. Johnson 8:35
really interesting. And I think what, what has happened, and I know I talked about this in the presentation, is that the term adolescent or teenager is still a fairly new concept, so I don't think we were equipped as a society to even plan and program for a teenager. I mean, the most teenagers have, really is like high school. But you know, back in the day, if you will, they were already becoming adults. It was like eighth grade, and that was it, and then you're out into the real world. And so I think when we realized that there was this transitional period where we said, okay, school, but then there was nothing else around their development, and then we dropped the ball, because what happens? They start to they look more adult, right? Their bodies are growing. They're getting taller, they are starting to have, you know, all of these different bodily functions. And then adults are like, Well, you look like me, so I should treat you like an adult. And it's like, ooh, we can't do that. It's a very slippery slope. So it's still a very interesting and new time pocket or term as well. So we still have a lot of work to do around helping teens navigate that experience and helping adults navigate it too

Casey O'Roarty 9:52
totally, because it's like when the conversation that I have with my 16 year old is she'll say things like, well. I can manage it. I can manage myself. Mom and I, which it's like, I absolutely 100% want to give her space to manage. And when I see that it's now four o'clock in the afternoon and she hasn't had anything to eat, that's not managing or, you know, and so it's this interesting space where it's like, I'm going to give you enough room to lean in and to step into what you're saying, which is because, from their perspective, that place of like, you know, I am, I can handle it, I can manage myself, and then remembering as the adult that this is a practice space, right? And so when we practice, we make a lot of mistakes, so that when they're not managing themselves, it doesn't become this back and forth where the adult is like, How dare you make How dare you not manage yourself when you said you could manage yourself, you know, instead of like, oh, right, yeah, yeah. So feeling that tension, noticing how you feel now that it's the afternoon and you haven't had anything to eat. You know, what can you do tomorrow that's going to support you and getting food in your body earlier in the day? Because it is crazy. It is crazy to be on the other side of adolescence and have the experience that we had, because I was a wild teenager, not so much until I got to college. But you know, like it's hard to push aside that idea that we have, especially as Gen Xers, and we're going to talk about generations that we know because we were teenagers, like the assumptions that show up in that statement. Like, I know what your experience is because I was a teenager. There's so many assumptions there, right? Because my children are. They have a totally different family system. It's a totally different time in the world, right? Their school experience, like, just to assume, to have the audacity, to assume that I know exactly how they feel, like there's some themes, you know? I mean, I know how I felt, and there might be some overlap, but I think the adults can do a better job of backing off and really being more in the listening than in the telling, is that what you're hearing from the team. Are they like, yes, please listen more, no less. Yes,

Jaynay C. Johnson 12:08
please. Can I get a double order of that? But not only that, I think the space where parents miss a great opportunity is to empathize. So you don't have to tell them that you know, like, I know what you're feeling, but empathize with what they're experiencing. And you can probably relate to a situation, you know, and you kind of preface it saying things like, you know, I know that they're you know, times are a little different. Now, I remember when I was growing up and I had to deal with someone who didn't like me very much, or, you know how that made me feel? Because I think parents also like to lie and act like they never had any issues, too, and

Casey O'Roarty 12:53
I'm the outlier for that one. Janae, I'm an open book about my issues.

Jaynay C. Johnson 12:58
Yes, well, good, because I tell you, parents are la, la, la, and I just look at them like, you know, school is not always, you know, a walk in the park for you, or you struggled this here, or you struggled there. And I think so many parents just don't like to go back to those times where they weren't good or seen as great. And so they try to exert that power of being a parent to now, like, just not talk about the experiences where they were less than most parents, which I think is very comical. They think that if they tell their teen that they made poor choices, that the teen is going to go run out and make the same poor choice. And it's like, that's not what's going to happen, what's actually going to happen. Or what I've seen happen more often than not, is a teen is like, Oh, wow. My mom has been through something, my dad has been through something, my aunt has been through something similar. Let me listen to how they try to solve it. Maybe I can get some tips. They're not going to go out and try to make the same mistake you made, but oftentimes we're not giving teens enough information for them to make informed decisions. And that's kind of my basis. They need information. They can make informed decisions, but they're not idiots, they're not idiots, but they just don't get enough information either, right?

Casey O'Roarty 14:19
And I think there's something to be said too when we are, you know, appropriately open, because there's plenty of stories that I have yet to share with my children, but they know a lot when we share. I think there's also this unspoken message of, I'm open to having these conversations. I'm open to talking about these tough issues. And I think also, there's this opportunity for our teens to see, like, Oh, hey, I can, you know, if mom's willing to talk about her experience with, you know, sex and her first relationships or experimenting, or, you know, whatever you know, then. Then maybe I can come to her and talk to her about what I'm going through, or what I'm considering, or I'm what I'm trying to tease apart. I just think there's an overall grander, just openness and availability inside of the relationship. Would you agree with that? I

Jaynay C. Johnson 15:16
agree. I definitely agree. And I think what a lot of parents kind of neglect to realize is the way that to me, I'll say this in my personal, working opinion and in life experience, the way that we handle teenagers really impacts their adult relationships as well, and it impacts their relationships with their parents as well. And I don't think a lot of parents stop to think about that, because even when we think about childhood, right, people say, oh, did you have a good childhood? If someone says, no, they're probably thinking about their teen years. They're not thinking about anything before the age 11, because

Casey O'Roarty 15:56
they're so cute and agreeable before age 11,

Jaynay C. Johnson 15:59
yes, and they're not really thinking about it, right? It's kind of like when we talk about like, unless they've had like, a lifetime of like, trauma or different things like that, most of the time those struggles are hitting in those teen years once 13 hits. So I think it's important to consider the relationship that you want to have with your teen now, and the relationship that you want to have with them as they continue to grow older, and the type of relationships you want them to have as adults, because all of that is reflective on the parental relationship between teens and their families. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 16:38
so oh my gosh, I could just go off on tangents with you. One morning, I mentioned that I could do that. I think so. So I mentioned that I saw you speak at the diversity and parenting conference. I was super excited about your topic, which was raising Generation Z. And I And you mentioned being a millennial, I noticed really quickly in your presentation how useful it was to hear from you about, you know, the issues that teens today are facing, because you are one step closer to being those teens than I am as a Gen Z er, right. I mean, I didn't have my kids until I was in my late 20s. I didn't even have a cell phone until I was, like, old, like, maybe, yeah, like, maybe 30, oh yeah, we didn't have email. I didn't have email in college. Oh, I just turned 46 Right, right, like, right. And so it's so so interesting. It's, I know, brace yourself, but it's just so interesting because so many people that I find myself reading, you know their work, or talking to what I'm noticing after, after hearing you, recognizing how many of those people are my age, and so, because we are, what do you? What do you call us technological immigrants? That is not the term. Is that the

Jaynay C. Johnson 18:16
term we're gonna use it, I guess I don't know the other term so, well, I guess maybe like tech implants or something, okay, I don't know, yeah, right,

Casey O'Roarty 18:27
but we didn't grow up with this. So now, seeing our kids with it, it's like, there's this fear, there's this crisis, everybody wants you know, it's just it has a much different energy to it than listening to you talk about it, right? And so can you just break down where the generate? Like, you don't have to go in, like, way back, but like, Gen X, okay,

Jaynay C. Johnson 18:49
so Gen X, according to Pew's research, begins at the age 39 through the age of

Casey O'Roarty 18:56
54 Yeah. So I'm smack dab in the middle of that. You are

Jaynay C. Johnson 19:00
smack dab in the middle of gym. X, yes. And then Millennials are, how old? We're 22 to 38 so we're not even as young. Well. I mean, 23 is kind of young, but, I mean, we're still not that, like, super young. Like, we have a very large, like, time span. We are, we're, we are getting old. So it's interesting, because a lot of people blame Millennials for everything, and they're not realizing, because we're picking we're picking up what was already, you know, being put down. And so it's like a, there's like a birth crisis, because millennials aren't having children, right? And, you know, a housing crisis, but Millennials have, we understand that it costs way more money to take care of a family now, it costs way more to buy homes. And we are. We have watched our parents and people go through. You know, recessions and be a part of recessions and see that you can lose your home. So people are, we just aren't necessarily interested,

Casey O'Roarty 20:09
but you're responding to what is alive right now in our culture. Basically, yes,

Jaynay C. Johnson 20:14
exactly. And you know, I think that Gen Z as well, they're taking on that same, that same vibe. So Gen Z ers are very free minded. They're not really thinking about organized religion. They're worried about the planet. They're worried about climate change. They're very fluid in their sexuality. So Gen Z is taking that ball even further. And they are very, very socially driven and conscious at a very young age, whereas, you know, plenty of generations before, maybe not so much,

Casey O'Roarty 20:51
and they're so Gen Z, where it's the who are the youngest Gen Z ers? How old are they?

Jaynay C. Johnson 20:57
The youngest Gen Zs are seven. Oh, babies. They are babies, and a generation after them will be considered alpha, although a lot of researchers are not sure if they're going to continue on with generational groupings. And I think I mentioned that at the presentation, just because the world is changing so fast, they don't know if they're really going to be able to be able to keep up with characteristic, or don't know if that's a word, but they don't know if they're going to be able to keep up with different groupings for generations.

Casey O'Roarty 21:29
So are is that how the generational like these phrases work? Is it like tied to global or societal events of the time where people kind of are affected by that, so they all are kind of lumped into this group. Is that how the generations are teased apart?

Jaynay C. Johnson 21:48
So yes, that is one of the ways that generations are kind of teased apart. So even if you look at certain generations, you know they had certain things that happened during them. So like Generation X, it was you guys are considered, like the generation of, like the latch key kids. So you were the first kids where your parents started to, kind of like leave you at home so that they can go work and do different things, you know, y, 2k was a big thing, you know. So just,

Casey O'Roarty 22:19
we're gonna go down.

Jaynay C. Johnson 22:22
You know, women started to work more during your generation. So just kind of, there were a lot of different things that happened, just kind of like millennials, you know, digital media really became a big thing for us. You know, a child focused world, AIDS became a big thing. 911 happened. Well, you know, when I was in high school. So yes, generations kind of get categorized by what's happening in the world, and when there are super, like large and stark events, they may decide to stop a generation, because maybe this is gonna, you know, breed something new. So I imagine once, like artificial intelligence and like robots are really roaming the earth, like in buddies, that'll probably be a whole nother generational characteristic, right? Because that's gonna be different, that completely like that generation that has that is gonna be living in a completely different world we were, uh huh. So it's pretty

Casey O'Roarty 23:23
it's fascinating

Jaynay C. Johnson 23:24
boring, but it's also super fascinating, because I think it's really

Casey O'Roarty 23:28
interesting, yes, so, yeah, well, and I think there's a lot of you know, like just listening to you talk about just the millennials and and the passions that they have in response to where we're at as a culture and society and where we you know, global warming, this. We're recording this yesterday. I can't remember her name, the gal, the young woman, yeah, Greta. God, did you hear her impassioned speech at the UN? I mean, you know, and I listened to my own daughter, who was just disgusted by the the adults, you know, and,

anyway, so. But I think that one so there's all of those kind of social things. But I think that you know what we're going to talk about today, finally getting to I love talking to you. I'm excited. Is this whole the tech piece is so you know, and like you said, you came up with it, but now we've got, you know, kids that you know, you see toddlers and little tiny people knowing how to get right into that phone and get what they want, watch what they want. And I think for us, the Gen Xers, the parents and I acknowledge too, that a lot of people listening are not necessarily. There's probably millennial parents listening as well. So they're probably like, okay, see, you're so old. But you know, for those of us that didn't have phone. Phones until they were really old. It feels really like we're we're racing to catch up, and it feels so foreign and we're so afraid, and it's like, what about going outside? What about moving your body? And it's the technology and the phone relationship that our teenagers have that's really nerve wracking. And I read an article in the scientific journal Nature that shared a sample 2100 children surveyed who attended public schools in North Carolina in 2015 which, according to the article, was likely to be really representative of the of the US adolescent population, that 48% of 11 year olds told them that they owned a mobile phone. Why did they say mobile and not sell? I don't know, but, and then among 14 year olds, it was 85% and this is right smack in the middle of that Gen Z. And now it's four years later. Do you think that, you know, four years ago, 48% of 11 year olds, right? So 11 is like, right, moving right into sixth grade, where I am, that's Middle School, and that seems to be, if you've managed to avoid it. It seems like middle school is when parents are finally saying, like, okay, fine, I'll get you a phone. So in this case, it was 48% would you say that those numbers? Do you think those numbers are higher now, absolutely.

Jaynay C. Johnson 26:28
So I think the other thing we have to consider is, with so much violence happening in the world and school shootings and different things, parents are also finding that their kids need social not social media, but phones for safety, right? So they want to be able to access their child and text them and to know what's going on. So we can, we can love the idea of, you know, a formless community or society, but, I mean, we have to think about just the reality parents are having to work more to cover bills and to do things their kids have to, you know, go to different programs, and, you know, you have to coordinate a lot of schedules now, and there's a lot of, you know, traumatic violence happening, and you just don't know if your kid is going to be harmed in school, if there's going to be a safety shutdown or anything. And I can't imagine a parent not giving their kid a phone and not knowing what's going on if something were to happen. So I definitely think that the number is higher now, just based on the world that we live in. So I definitely think the number is higher now, and I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong with middle schoolers having phones, but what I would like to see parents do more of is have a conversation about how they use the phone. And I don't mean just how to use it, like turn it on and turn it off, but because it's a smartphone, more than likely everybody's getting iPhones, definitely having the conversation around, you know, parental controls. You know best ways to be on your phone, like, okay, bedtime is still important. Putting on a screen time monitor. Screen time monitors, shutting down certain apps. And obviously, kids can find workarounds. I'm not saying that they can't, but I do think if you go into the conversation with parameters, your child remembers those parameters, and they probably are not going to want to go through all of that work to find ways around the parameter. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 28:33
well, and I think

Jaynay C. Johnson 28:34
its own, but yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 28:36
well, and there's outliers, of course, but I think that there's something, and I think that it's really important, when we go into those conversations, I notice that something that's really useful to me is, well, not useful. Actually not useful is sometimes my tone is experienced by my kids as accusatory, like I'm saying, like, if I say something like, Hey, there's going to be boundaries to them, it feels like I'm saying hey. Don't think that you can do whatever you want with this phone, like they experience it. So I think it's really important too for parents listening to remember, like going into it assuming that your child wants to be a healthy, productive member of the world, right? However that looks to them, they have a brain, you know, they want a good life. They don't want to be, you know, addicted to their phones. So coming at it in a collaborative, conversational way, versus, I know, you're probably going to do all these terrible things with your phone. So here's the rules, really nice and that way. And it's funny, because, you know, even those of us that work with parents that are the quote parent educators like we get to check, I get to check. Myself on this too. And you know, it's interesting, my son started at a new middle school this year we moved and he this school. They have really strict rules about phones staying in their lockers. They actually don't even walk around with backpacks. They all, you know, it's a pretty privileged population up here, and the school district has been able to really focus on, well, one they have a huge focus on social, emotional learning, which I love. And every kid, I don't know if it's fifth grade and up or if it's just middle and high school, every kid gets a laptop to use throughout the year, and so that's all they need to move between classes. They don't need books. They don't need their backpacks. So no one has their backpacks. There's this level of safety or perceived safety, right? And then there's no phones. But what's fascinating is how often I pick up my phone thinking, oh, I want to say something to Ian, or I need, I have a question or and how used to being able to connect with him, even as I was like, put your phone away during class, I was texting him

Jaynay C. Johnson 31:11
exactly.

Casey O'Roarty 31:14
So it's interesting.

Jaynay C. Johnson 31:17
It's like you're mad at them because they are on their phone, but it's like, mom, like, if I don't respond, you're gonna freak out, like, I don't know what to say, Yeah, or

Casey O'Roarty 31:29
like, let's all look at our screen time, right? We all, we all have iPhones, and we all get on it and look at it, and guess what? Janae, I am right there with them. I have nothing to brag about when it comes to looking at how much time I've spent on during, you know, I'm real quick to be like, Well, my work, you know, blah, but reality is, I'm I, you know, we all are learning like we're the we are when it comes to our phone use. I think adults are also, you know, we're in the adolescence of our understanding, yes, of our own bronios,

Jaynay C. Johnson 32:03
exactly. And that's such a that's such a good point because, and I think that that's why it's important for and I like how you were able to recognize that when you're listening to people around this topic, they're from a different generation. Because that's what my goal is, as the millennial, right? I struggle often in spaces because I'm fairly I'm fairly young, I'm right, right snap, you know, dab in the middle of my millennial existence. And so it's hard for me to go into spaces where there are seasoned teachers that can probably be my mom, you know, and I'm telling them, Hey, let's approach it this way, right? I did a teacher. PD, I was at a school, high school this morning, and I was at a teacher. PD, and I could not even get through the presentation, because the teachers in there were like, You mean to tell me, you want me to do this, and I need to approach it. And I'm like,

Unknown Speaker 32:56
teachers are the worst.

Jaynay C. Johnson 32:59
This is what we have to do. I'm like, because you guys have a goal, right, right? And I always try to just make them, help them understand that it's like you have a goal, and the things you've been doing while they may be well intentioned, they're not working, right? And, you know, it's very even difficult for me as the millennial to go into these spaces to try to bridge the gap between Gen Xers and maybe even the generation before them to Gen Z, because it is a stark difference. You know, some people remember writing on typewriters and having to write letters, and you know, penmanship is a big deal to them. These kids don't have to actually write in paper. They don't have

Casey O'Roarty 33:41
good handwriting, yeah? Well, you know, yeah. And teachers are tough, man, I work with teachers too, and there is a lot to be discouraged about on there's so many layers, right? And then you walk in, or I walk in, and they're like, you don't spend your days in the classroom. You don't know. And then so all that discouragement gets thrown at whoever's doing the presentation. Yeah, and I had a brother word processor in college. That's what my parents bought me to take to college. It showed me four lines at a time. That was the screen. Yeah, dude. It was crazy. Four

Unknown Speaker 34:15
lines at a time. I

Casey O'Roarty 34:17
wrote many. I spent many and all night or working on papers on that silly little thing anyway,

Jaynay C. Johnson 34:24
wow, yeah, but

Casey O'Roarty 34:28
that sink in Janae, and, you know, I think you're, you're hitting something here. You know that I said it's, it's, it is different coming from somebody who's my age versus somebody that's your age. And we see things like the dots that you know, are being connected. And there's some great resources out there, for sure. And I'm and I, you know, there is science, there's like, real, you know, there's real questions to be asking about what's happening with phones, right? And we don't history will, you know? We'll know in the future, what. But what the results are, right? And, you know, and there's a lot of talk about social media and anxiety and depression and, you know, sexting and cyber bullying and just the broadcasting. Every once in a while, my kids let me sit down next to them as they go through their Snapchat stories, and I'm like, Oh my God, all I can think of is, thank God I didn't have a way to broadcast all of the stupid shit I did as a teenager. Like, thank God, because I'm just amazed at the unabanded. Like, there's no fear around below and bong hits at the camera on your Snapchat story. Or, you know, my daughter, my kids and I actually did a podcast episode where they came and we just had a really candid conversation around social media and, you know, and listening to my daughter talk about the unsolicited dick pics that she gets, I don't know if it's yes. I don't know if it happens as much anymore, because she's really cold, like she's really fine tuned who she follows and what it looks like and who gets to follow her. But, you know, and just like the the balls that people have to ask her for, you know, nudes, and that's just such a thing for them. And, you know, and it's no wonder that all their parents are kind of freaking out, or the ones that are paying attention and realize, realizing what's happening. And then the phones are seen as bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, right, right?

Jaynay C. Johnson 36:34
And then the phones are seen as as bad, when the reality is, phones are not bad. The internet is not bad. It's a tool and without and that's why I said that that conversation is important, because we should be having a conversation with our teens beforehand about what to do if you get unsolicited pictures. We should be having conversations with them to encourage them or to tell them, do not send those pictures out to anyone. Don't save them either, because there are laws around that, you know, I know in PA it's considered child pornography. Who send that? Yeah, even if you don't ask for the picture, if you send it, you can get charged with child pornography. Even if you save it, you can, you know, be charged with something. So I think it's important for us to have these conversations with our kids, because even if our kids never get an unsolicited pick, they probably have a friend that that has, and that friend could be talking about exposing someone, and your your child may be the one to tell them, Oh, do not do that. You know, you can go to jail for that, right? And then, you know, just that small bit of information could save a lot of people. Because if you think about the person that'll send the images, they're gonna get in trouble. The person who is in the image is probably gonna be embarrassed. Who knows? Suicide can come after that. You know what I mean. So it is important for us all to just take a proactive approach and have conversation around how to the best practices of social media, the best practices of having a phone, and I think we just need to be doing that more frequently than we are, because we are expecting our kids to know how to navigate, and they don't. A lot of our kids are innocent. They don't really know that someone is trying to get to them or that they're over sharing. Could be giving someone too much information about their life. They don't necessarily think that. They look at it as, oh, I'm just chatting with my friends. My friends get to see what's going on? Not that. So does everyone else right?

Casey O'Roarty 38:44
57 friends on Instagram that really

Jaynay C. Johnson 38:47
aren't cool friends, but like you said, they're your friends on Instagram, and you don't realize that the one of the schools I work with, they have a no cell phone policy, but someone kept sneaking their phone in and was snapping on Snapchat during school hours. One of the other students wanted revenge and told that they had snapped, you know, they had their phone. And then what did the school do? All the school had to do was go look on their Snapchat to see that they are posting in their uniform in the bathroom, and they printed out those pictures, and there was a whole meeting, you know. So it is just like you don't realize that everyone else still has access to what's being posted. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 39:30
yeah, oh my gosh. So what do you see? Yeah, I do hilarious. Um, we Yeah, just last night, I was sitting downstairs, and I could hear this like crying. And I thought, oh gosh, what's happening? But it sounded just, it didn't sound like it was it sound like it was coming from my daughter's room, but it I couldn't figure out what was happening, so I called up to her, and then I heard her voice, and then I realized that she was why. Watching someone's story who was just going, you know, having a rough time and falling apart. And I was like, oh gosh, is everything okay? And she's like, Mom, people cry, let it go, you know? I was like, okay, checking to see if anyone needs support, you know. But right, what do you see? So you work primarily? Do you work primarily with when you have clients? Is it mostly teen girls?

Jaynay C. Johnson 40:25
Mostly teen girls? Yeah, although I do some consulting and contractual work in the middle school and I see boys, I have a lot of boys on my caseload there in the middle

Casey O'Roarty 40:37
school, what are you seeing as some of the big issue, like the themes that show up with the teens and the families that you serve,

Jaynay C. Johnson 40:47
this is so this is a great question, and it's different for each age demo. So in my private practice, I am dealing with a lot of how do I want to put this kind of like identity issues and heavy parental expectations. So I think a lot of Gen X parents are expecting their teens to be really hardcore on education and getting a good job, like getting a good steady job, and Gen Zers do not care about that, because they do not see our economy and our job market is stable. They are not deciding to work for companies long term. It actually is an outdated concept, right? If we're going to be honest, it's truly an outdated con there we there aren't any factories that people are actually working in to produce all of this stuff. It's, it's an outdated us concept for work anyway. So you have a lot of parents that are not wanting to allow the social aspect of their lives to be in the forefront because they, they are still attached to this. You know, large education, get a good job, kind of mindset, and the team is greatly, greatly rebelling against that ideology. I'm

Casey O'Roarty 42:11
totally experiencing that right now. Yeah,

Jaynay C. Johnson 42:14
yeah, it's just like, they're like, what's the point? I mean, and if we look at this, even for me having a whole master's degree, and when I worked at an agency, you know, they only wanted to pay me $40,000 and I'm like, That's too like, I don't understand. Me going to school costs more than this. Yeah, this is all you want to pay me. And so and then, and then they don't really support you in any other area. So I think our youth are noticing that that jobs are not loyal to their employees, and they're not flexible, and it's, it's like three or four jobs rolled into one for little pay, and they still can't enjoy their lives. And so our youth don't want to go to not that they don't want to go to college, but they're not interested in that debt. You know, they're not going to be the generation to work a job 1020 years and retire there. That's definitely not happening, and I think we should be more open to that. So do you think?

Casey O'Roarty 43:15
Think, because I'm in it, sorry to interrupt you. It's okay. I'm in it with my daughter, and she's, you know, she's taken kind of an alternative path, which my listeners have heard me talk about, where she did freshman year in a traditional public high school. She did sophomore year online, and then, actually tomorrow, she starts in a program out here in Washington State. It's called Running Start, and it's an option where juniors and seniors in high school, can take all their classes at the local community college, and in two years, earn their high school diploma and their AA, yeah, and she is like, I'm gonna do this, and then I'm done. And I she has no desire to go to like a have like the four year college experience, which doesn't surprise me, because she also opted out of high school, and I really feel like and I'm curious if this is a generational thing, or if this is unique to her, but she's someone who really needs to, like, feel the rub or feel the tension of life, to choose, To make a choice, versus me saying, Well, you have to go to college, because that's what people do, and you have to, like, basically, that's what I've got. Like, you have to, you know that she's like, actually, I don't, you know that's been our ongoing lesson of life. Is like, actually, you don't control me. I control me. And so you know is that something that you see with your clients like that need to actually feel the tension of the world, versus just do what your parents say. Is that a generational thing? For sure, it's

Jaynay C. Johnson 44:56
definitely a generational thing. But here's what I want the older generation. To think about. Thank you. I feel like the older generation should also think about how they would have also loved that from their parents. A lot of the time, older generations are just doing what their parents did to them and because they feel they turned out okay and just do the same thing to my child. And I think our youth are finally pushing back on this concept, because they're very emotionally intelligent, so they're able to recognize that isn't going to necessarily bring me joy, that doesn't make me feel good. I'm not about to live a life where I'm not even happy with what I'm doing for someone else, and I think that that's a great thing again. I just think it, I feel it just needs to be refined. So instead of, you know, parents getting into arguments or disagreements with their teen about them not going to college, just nurturing their interests, helping them understand and navigate what it is that they that they want to do, helping them just make healthy, long term and life decisions. They can decide to go to college at a different time. College does not have to happen right after high school. They could take a year break, because it's a lot when you're in high school, trying to get through your high school work, and you're trying to apply for scholarships, and you're trying to get good grades, and you're taking exams to get into colleges that touring, that's a lot of pressure. And then you have this added component of social media where you get to see people going to college, and it looks all perfect and pretty and paint, and it's just like, Oh my gosh. It can be a lot to digest. So I think I, you know, want older generations to understand that, you know, you guys also deserved a space to be yourself and to make your own decisions, and it's a great thing that you have the opportunity to give that to your team, yeah, and that it's a and it's a, I don't want to say it's a safer world, but I feel like it's a safer world where they can find ways to make their own money and make their own living without factories. You know people, it was like, that's all you had before you worked at the factory, and that was it. And so now there is a world where they can make money online, in their sleep, marketing, doing the things that they do every day, like all businesses look to the team culture, because teams are just creative

Casey O'Roarty 47:35
naturally, right, right? And I think too, you know, I yeah, I mean, I when I think about I went to college, I was still 17 years old. I turned because my birthday is mid September. I was 17, went to college. Totally went off the rails. I didn't have space to really nurture who I was in my during high school. It just wasn't really like there just wasn't space for me to kind of explore and go through individuation. And so it happened in college, and I nearly failed out blah, blah, blah, whatever. I pulled it off everyone so. But I mean, you know, really, those first four years were a huge party, and it's amazing when we can provide space for our kids to explore who they are and navigate, you know, what they want like. I love what you said about nurturing their interests. I love what you said around like they are actually, you know, if you look at any company right now, the biggest things that they're doing are, you know, social media marketing, getting online, and that is what our kids have grown up with. So they have some pretty amazing skills built in. And you're right, it might not, they might not need College, and or they might. And what an amazing opportunity for them to recognize, like, Ooh, I want to do this thing and then have the world say, well, we'd love for you to do this thing, but you need to go and study this so that you are ready for it, versus, like I said, mom and dads or mom and whoever or dad or whatever the caregiver role is, saying, No, this is what you have to do, and you have to do it right now, because this is what you do. Yeah, cool.

You know, it's such a different, yeah, and I think that going in, like once I decided I was going to be a teacher and I went back to school, it turned out it was really easy to pull a 4.0 I just had to show up and listen, and I was interested, you know, versus college which, and I recognize and I own that I had, you know, it was a huge privilege for me to be able to go to college and goof off and I didn't have to work. I mean, it was pretty much handed to me, and that is not every college student. Experience and but taking it on, like getting the loans and going back to school and doing it on my own made such a huge difference to how I showed up to that. And I Yeah, and I think we can trust our kids, right? Yes,

Jaynay C. Johnson 50:17
I love that you said that that's important to trust them and to trust their journey and their path. Because what you want them to do, which I'm always a believer in, is you want them to be able to trust themselves. And if, as the parent, you're constantly making the choices for them, you're almost telling them that you don't think that they can make good decisions. Yeah, for sure, you're basically telling them that, like, basically, and then after, and then at some point, they stop believing that they can make good decisions. That's why we see, you know, kids who struggle to launch, and parents are like, Well, what happened? Why aren't they launching? I'm like, because you made every choice for them. They never when, when it was the time for them to explore and navigate decision making in a safe and healthy environment. You took the lead, and when you took the lead, you took away their autonomy and their thought that they could have autonomy and make good decisions. Now they're relying on you for everything. You click their wings off, and it's very hard for wings to grow back without some sort of trauma, you know, disengagement, and we don't need to go down that path if we don't have to go down that path. And I do think parents just have to kind of be honest with themselves and recognize your children may not need a college degree for what they plan to do with their lives. And if you allow, if you give them an opportunity to say, Hey, if you want, okay, you want to do this career, Google how to get into the industry. And when they Google how to get into the industry, then they'll come across some information that says, Oh, you need a degree. You need this or that. And then they'll say, Okay, well now I can go to college with a purpose, versus going just to go. Because I may like psychology, that's not going to cut it. You can't just may like it for however much money. So it's kind of like you really want to make sure that you're exposing them and that you're helping them navigate. Like, okay, you want to be a music producer. Google. What that looks like. How can you do it? You want to be an actress. What are some things you can do to get there? What are some things you can do now? Because they can start acting now, right wherever they are, putting some clips on YouTube and doing different things like that. So I think we have to, and I think it's a generational difference right around what it was like. You know, I hear a lot of Gen Xers and, you know, generation app before that, say you guys need to get out and go fill out job applications. You need to go to the place. And it's like, places don't have paper applications. You do them online. I don't even need to walk into a store.

Casey O'Roarty 52:55
And my daughter just went through this Janae, and I was like, because I the things, the jobs, the programs, the things that I've been able to do in my life, my resume and application wasn't what got me in the door. I am a I am a kick ass interview like, I can show up and make people fall in love with me, and that was my gift. And so when my daughter's like, I just signed up online, I'm like, but how? How How will they know who you are? It's so weird, but I am. I'm hearing what you're saying. It's just the way that it is now, so, so, and I also want to just acknowledge too that I am, you know, a middle class white woman raising two able bodied, middle class white kids. How do and I know that the population that you work with is primarily teens of color. Am I correct? So how does this conversation vary? Or does it when because I am always trying to expand how I understand the world and different people's experiences? So how does what are the challenges sounding like and how are they? What are the variances when we're talking about teens of color, families of color, what are the challenges there?

Jaynay C. Johnson 54:09
So there can be a lot of challenges in both areas. So college can seem like a good idea, because maybe this child could be the first child to go to college in that family. But then that could also bring different barriers, because if they're the first child to go to that family, they can feel added pressure to get it right to go, although they may not want to go. And then they can also struggle with support, because college is a lot doing, FAFSA, writing essays, remembering deadlines, and if you have a family that hasn't had those experiences, they may not know how to support you, or you may have a parent or a family that is very well aware of college, and they couldn't make it happen for themselves, and so now they're excessively pushing you to go. And maybe you don't want to go at all. Maybe you don't want. To go to. Maybe you don't want to go to the school that they want you to go to. And so, you know, I've dealt with girls who may not have been as academically smart or savvy as their parents were, and so the parents were wanting her to go to, like an Ivy League type of school, and she's like, I would feel more comfortable going to like a community college first, and getting my feet wet with college, period. And so we had to just work through what that would look like for her, to own up to that, to honor that about herself, and then to tell her parents that. So there could be a lot of barriers there, and we do idolize college a lot, and a lot of kids in the inner inner cities may not get a chance to go, but that doesn't mean that they can't have a good quality of life. And I think that we often neglect to talk about trades. So I like to make sure I'm talking about trades, like Plumbing is a big business, and you don't have to necessarily go to college for that. You can go to a trade school, but plumbing is going to be in existence forever.

Casey O'Roarty 56:07
Yeah? So good job security for sure. Yeah,

Jaynay C. Johnson 56:11
just right. And it's like we talk about degrees with all of these loans, and then we have all of this debt hanging over our head, and a job still may not pay me enough money. So I think that in inner cities and with, you know, people of color, we, you know, there's this other conversation around, how else can they just have a good quality of life that doesn't include college, because it is expensive, and a lot of people of color don't have access to like, family wealth and, you know, those different things, or what's the other thing that they have kind of like, like family, if I if someone went to school, then, like, their child can go, like, that's not really happening in our communities, and some, some parts of our community, but not all, Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 56:58
and I think it's really important for my white listeners to recognize, because we don't always think about that like those different the privileges that we have can feel subtle because it's just a part of our experience. And so thank you for bringing that up. What about with the screens? Do you see any challenges or things showing up in your clients that maybe is different or more intense or less intense, or what are you noticing when you kind of I'm being awkward and how I'm using language right now, but it's okay, you know? I mean, because I think a lot of and what I'm learning in my own growth and understanding of my own race and privilege is that, like, you know, even at the conference that we were at, like so much of the Reese, the the quote research and the books and everything, it's really geared towards the white experience, white families, you know, white people. And so, do you find that there's, do you come across information and read it and think, Well, this might be what it looks like for the for white culture, but as far as like teens of color, it looks a little bit different. Are there any places like that when we're talking about teens and screens?

Jaynay C. Johnson 58:16
So in terms of screenings, um, no, like, they're so out So, so let me back up. I'll say

Casey O'Roarty 58:25
Snapchat, they're all sending sex, right? They're all there, but vaping on their stories, you know?

Jaynay C. Johnson 58:32
So I think what ends up happening is a lot of the screening tools and like different things that are out there were created by, you know, white, cis, heterosexual, you know, men. So even when we look at, you know, psychological things and DSM, all of that was created that way. So I think it takes, usually, a clinician of color to be able to that understands the culture, to help navigate what's happening differently and be able to have so, you know, like, the rate of suicide has gone up in black youth. It's almost doubled. And everyone is confused. They're like, Well, why? What's happening? What's the issue? And I'm like, I mean, the same issues that have been there, but teens have access to understand, oh, I can commit suicide and deal with this myself. Where before, our youth may have done other things, or our people you know, may have drank themselves, you know, to to death, if you will, or you know they didn't know that they can do these different things. So it is like some cultural there are cultural components that are not always spread out or talked about in terms of what it even sometimes with cell phones. So some families don't have cell phones, and so if you're if your child is going to a better school, quote, unquote, or a good school, and they require that that kid could fall behind in the work because of everything. Think it's Google Classroom, but we may not be able to keep my bill on or the phone bill, the phone bill paid. I may not get a chance to do my work, and I may not be able to stay after school because I have to go get my siblings. So there are so many different layers that we do have to be mindful of when we are talking about people in different cultures. And you know what's to be expected, or what that family of origin looks like, because sometimes families include mom, a grandmom and an aunt. There may not be a dad, or there may be a dad and an aunt and not a mom. So we do just kind of have to be mindful of all of those different things, and in terms of screening, screening tools, it's just really up to the clinician, honestly, or the person working with the family, to ask them about, you know, their cultural differences, and communicate with them in a way, and hear them when they tell you what they are. And, you know, use that information for them, not against them. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 1:01:01
yeah. Thank you for sharing time and space with me and having this conversation. I really value your voice.

Jaynay C. Johnson 1:01:09
Thank you. Thanks for having me

Casey O'Roarty 1:01:12
well. And I always end my interviews with the same question, which is because my the name of my business is joyful courage. So Janae, my question to you is, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of doing the work that you do?

Jaynay C. Johnson 1:01:29
So joyful courage means to me that although it can be rough to have certain conversations and to pull out some of the, you know, darker sides of life, I find joy knowing that once we pull them out, they get a chance to see the light, and from there, everything goes up and up. So that's what it means to me. Gotta have the courage to pull it out, but then you're happy because it's out, and once it's out, it can breathe.

Casey O'Roarty 1:01:58
Yeah, yeah. Love that. Thank you. Where can listeners find you and follow your work?

Jaynay C. Johnson 1:02:05
Yeah, so everyone can find find me on teen talk therapy. I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook and Twitter. You can probably find me on Twitter more, but also on Instagram. So just connect with me. Feel free to send any messages, and my email is linked to all of those accounts as well, if you want a little bit more conversation, yay.

Casey O'Roarty 1:02:28
And you is teen talk therapy.com is your website, right? Yes. Okay, cool, yay. Well, I will make sure that all of those things are in the show notes. And again, thank you, Janae, thank

Jaynay C. Johnson 1:02:40
you.

Casey O'Roarty 1:02:44
Hey, yay. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. I so appreciate every single one of you and the ways that you show up for joyful courage. Thank you. And did you know there are ways that you can give back? I have a Patreon page, which is a place where you basically can donate one, five or $10 towards the sustainability of the program, and just as a way to say thank you, and you can check that out at patreon.com/joyful. Courage. That's www dot P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage. I have some benefits and bonuses for people that are in my Patreon community. You can also let me know what you think by heading on over to Apple podcasts, leaving me a five star rating and a review. I love to read the reviews on air, so whenever I get a new review, I share it, and it really just helps me know what you love about this podcast, what is landing for you, what is useful, like I mentioned at the top, I am active on Instagram and Facebook, both places you can find me at joyful courage and please Know that you're always welcome to join into my Facebook groups. Live in love with joyful courage as well as joyful courage for parents of teens, yes, yes, yes, yes. We're back in the weekly mode, so I'll be back next week. Can't wait to have you listen again until then, take a deep breath, follow it into your body. Take a moment to notice what's currently alive for you. Imagine that you can take the balcony seat for a higher perspective of whatever is currently going on in your life and trust that everyone's gonna be okay.

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