Alanna McGinn tells us all about how to make SLEEP happen…

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 18, you.

Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage parenting podcast. I am so glad that you're out there listening. So this week, this episode is all about sleep, and I'm really excited about it. I spoke with Alana McGinn, whose website, good night sleep. Site is a incredible resource for parents, for the parents of the world raising babies, toddlers, preschoolers, school, agers, teenagers, all of us information for all of us around sleep. I am especially excited because coming off of another amazing weekend, I got to spend time in Seattle at Grace. You may remember a solo show that I did that came out on October 5 around my experience with grace in New York. Maybe you listened to Episode 15, where I interviewed Krista petty Ramer about self care. So Grace is her workshop, and she does it all over the world, and I've been to it a few times because I deepen my learning and forward my intention and my practices for being the best I can be, with support of what I learn in that training room. And we brought it to Seattle this weekend, and it was incredible, incredible group of women, incredible group of women committed to living wholeheartedly, living full lives. And this began my intention was around purpose and commitment. And you know, it's easy to stand in that when I think about the work that I do. You know, purpose and commitment to all of you and my clients that work one on one with me, and the people that show up for my live workshops, and the people that show up for the E courses, you know, purpose and commitment is easy to stand in for me, as far as the work that I do in the world, purpose and commitment is not always Easy for me to stand in in my personal life, and it's not that I don't stand in it, but I just feel like there's always room for improvement. And so as I dug into that this weekend, I began to really recognize my own I just got clear around my own self care practices, and I know that what I put in my body, how I rest my body, and how I move my body, changes the way that I show up for my family, and I've been in this long period of kind of apathy, I guess, around that, around starting, around moving from knowing and doing right, that's a crazy place of space that I know I'm not the only one that struggles with. Like, you know what you're supposed to do. You know what you want to do. You know what would be good for you. But, man, taking that first step can be really challenging for a variety of reasons. Sometimes there's fear, there resistance to change, apathy, and mostly for me, it is just this voice of, oh yeah, I'll start that on Monday. I'll do it tomorrow. Oh, I'll do it. And it's just this thing that I know is out in my future, and the future is now, right? The future is now. The declaration happens now. And one of the pieces that's huge for me is sleep, and especially the last few weeks, I have not been getting enough sleep, and no matter how much coffee I drink in the morning, it's not even so much that I'm tired, it's that I'm irritable, and I am really good at pushing that irritability aside when I'm speaking to a group of parents or by myself. It's not so easy when confronted by the 12 year old or the 10 year old and their emotional experience, or the husband, right? That's when my lack of sleep really rears its ugly face. So while we're not necessarily talking a lot about adult sleep in this interview, that's coming up. Um. Um, we talk more about, you know, the sleep schedule, the baby stuff, as well as the school age stuff, about how to transition our kids when it becomes time to sleep on their own, what self soothing means. We talk about a lot of juicy stuff, but what's really alive in me right now is my own practice around sleep, and that filters into my parenting practice absolutely as a model for my kids, but also as how I show up for them. So as you listen to this interview, pay special attention to what shows up for you, around your own sleep pattern around your own sleep routine, and consider making some new declarations, some new goals, some new routines for you. Is there a way to put a bath into your routine? Is there a bedtime that you could be committed to? How many hours do you want and what opens up for you the next day when you have a great night of sleep, those are the questions I want you to ponder, and I also want to all to remind you that was a weird sound. I want to remind you that there's a contest coming up next week. I'm so excited about the what, what should I call it? Maybe I could call it like the subscribe. A THON, I'm having a subscribe. A THON, it's happening now. Um, I want you to stop listening to the podcast through the website. I'm super happy if this is the first time you're listening and you found the link to the website. Yay. Welcome. I want you now to go to iTunes, and I want you to search for the joyful courage parenting podcast, and I want you to hit the little purple button that says subscribe, so that you can be accessing every week that a new podcast comes out, it will show up on your device and it'll be easier to listen to, and you don't have to do anything. You just get to wait, and it'll magically show up for you when you've subscribed through iTunes. And to motivate you to do that, I'm gonna be holding a contest next week. I'm gonna put out a little mini podcast, a little short, solo show on Thursday, Thanksgiving. You don't have to listen to it on Thanksgiving. You can listen to it anytime between Thanksgiving and Sunday night of that weekend. And I will have some instructions there for you to do something to show me that you listened through iTunes and and I've got some swag. I've got some joyful courage swag that I'm going to be giving away. I've got some really cool trucker hats that I created and some really cute shirts. Like, it's good swag. It's not like a mug. All the mugs are awesome, um, it's good swag. So, yeah, so if you're not subscribed, do it, and would you do me a huge favor and tell your friends that you love this podcast and like post it on social media and show them how they can find it on their phone and just really support them. Because this, you know, community is strong as it grows. And I just want to, you know ever I want to increase our community, I want to increase the reach that we all have to all parents, so that we can feel supported and encouraged and loved and nurtured and nourished. Right? I want us to all be speaking a common language around love and relationship and taking care of ourselves. And I need your help so I am hosting a contest that's your action step for this podcast as well. As you know, there's going to be some action steps that shows up, that show up in the interview with Atlanta, but I also want to make sure that you're subscribing to the show. Okay, do it. You'll be glad. It's easy. I'm telling you, it's easy. I'll put the video in the show notes again, so again this week, so that you can watch it. It's short and educational. So now, how about we meet Alanna McGinn, senior sleep consultant at good night sleep site and inspiration for those of us that struggle with sleep in any way, shape or form, I'm really excited for you to get to hear from her. Let's check out the show.

Alana, welcome to the show.

Alanna McGinn 9:38
Thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 9:39
Yeah, my pleasure. Please tell the listeners a little bit about your journey and what you offer to parents so so good night sleep site.

Alanna McGinn 9:48
It's a pediatric and family sleep practice. You know, we work with families to better their overall sleep health, whether that be dealing with sleep training for babies and toddlers. Or helping children and the parents themselves sleep better. I began good night sleep sites almost five years ago. Now I was, you know, a first time parent to a beautiful, lovely little baby girl who just did not like to sleep. So, you know, as a first time parent, you know, you, you hear about sleep at your you know, your prenatal classes and stuff, but you have no idea what you're getting into until you're in the throes of complete sleep deprivation. And, you know, I just started doing my own research and my own readings, and obviously took, took my passion to the next level, and really enjoyed doing it, and just started kind of helping friends and friends and eventually did get certified. And then started good night sleep site when I was pregnant with my twins. So kind of, you know, birth them and birth my my business too. So now global good night sleep site is a global sleep practice. We have 17 sleep consultants worldwide. I'm also the Director for the International Association of child sleep consultants and a faculty member at the family sleep Institute.

Casey O'Roarty 11:06
Awesome. So you know a little bit about what you're talking about. Little bit. Yeah. So what are some of the biggest myths that you hear about sleep? Because when you were talking about, you know, you have this baby and then you have a baby, you know, you find that your baby isn't sleeping very much. Like my least favorite question is, oh, do they sleep? Are they sleeping through the night yet? And it was so empowering for me to read that that really means, like, maybe a four or five hour stretch with breastfeeding or nursing or bottle, whatever, yeah, and then back to sleep. So what are some of the big myths that they come up for you? So,

Alanna McGinn 11:42
I mean, it depends on the age, right? So for parents dealing with, you know, baby and kids sleep, it's that, you know, you also hear, Oh, you know you're never gonna sleep again. So for pregnant moms, it's awesome. That's awesome advice, isn't it? It's always great to hear that, right? Um, you know, and that's just, that's, you know, we know as parents. If that's not true, you know you can put plans in place once you know your baby is old enough and or your child where you can all be a happy, healthy, well rested family unit. And then it's also the sleep needs, right? So it's I remember being that first time parent and thinking, not understanding the biological differences between a baby sleep as compared to an adult sleep. So you know, keeping my baby up all day will help my baby sleep better at night. And we know that that's not true. That doesn't work the same as it works for us. So you know, sleep equals sleep. So I would say probably those are the two biggest myths that will never sleep again and not fully understanding the sleep needs of our of our

Casey O'Roarty 12:44
children. So okay, good. I'm excited that we get to dig into this. So my kids woke up frequently in the night. Yes, they both co slept and breastfed on demand, and I was really at a loss as to how to help them, or myself, get better sleep, and they seemed pretty well rested. I didn't really run into a lot. I mean, looking back, perhaps I was just attributing some of the mischief to other reasons, but it could have been around sleep, and mostly I endured because I didn't know what else to do. And I was super uncomfortable with some of the extreme theories out there, like, you know, I, and, you know, there was one what book was really helpful, the no cry Sleep Solution, although by Paley, is it? Elizabeth Paley pantley, yeah, and I, and that was great, except for, it was so involved that, but I took pieces from it that were helpful. Do you find that a lot with parents that they're just so overwhelmed that they just kind of power through and endure what they've got?

Alanna McGinn 13:55
Oh, definitely, totally, you know, I think it's, it's important for parents to understand that there's, there is no one way, method or plan, right? And you just said that you took pieces of a philosophy, a method that you felt comfortable using with your family, and incorporated that into your your child's sleep. So, you know, we help many families with different goals. So it could be transitioning from bed sharing or, you know, stopping night feeds or lengthening naps, reducing bedtime battles. So it's important to have a plan in place that parents are comfortable with, so that they remain consistent, right? Because if they're not comfortable using a method, they're not going to be consistent with it. And consistency is key. I mean, that's something that that we know. But you know, Parents also need to realize that that change do need doesn't need to happen, and that can be hard. You know, change is never easy, and it may be, you know, the changes that they don't necessarily want to make, but you know, we help them kind of understand and educate them that in order to have that end goal that they went they want these changes need to happen, right? So then it comes down. Down to, are they ready to make the changes? Right? And if you're not ready, you know it's not going to work. So and then I also find parents need the accountability. So they need someone to check in on them, you know, guide them through the process, tell them that the decisions they are making are okay. Sometimes, reading a book, reading the internet, Googling it doesn't. No,

Casey O'Roarty 15:21
it doesn't. Yeah, well, and I think, you know, and I appreciate that. I especially appreciate that it's not a one size fits all, and it's about the family values. Because I really believed in co sleeping, and I also recognized that our co sleeping arrangement was making it more challenging for me, and that was and I and that was okay. Does that make sense? Like, you know, in the nursing through the night, I was okay with it, and I also recognized, well, this is part, this is part of of why this is challenging. So I think that listeners, I'm sure, are feeling, you know, like kind of a sense of relief, because I think that it's good to know that the pieces that are really important to us can be maintained. But like you said, a plan of action is the first step towards creating, you know, a system for your family where everybody's getting more sleep. And I think as soon what I notice about parents and my work is, as soon as they create, just in the creation of the plan of action, there is movement in that direction, exactly,

Alanna McGinn 16:26
exactly. You know, I always say, if what you're doing works for you, then who am I to tell you to change it? Do you know what I mean? So if what you're doing, if, if co sleeping, I mean, as a sleep professional, I always, I obviously have to encourage the safest sleep environment. And you know that being said, co sleeping is both bed sharing and room sharing. So you know, if you're bed sharing, you know we have to make sure that that they're following the Safe Sleep practices in bed sharing. But if bed sharing, and you are doing that, if bed sharing, if, if you know, providing feeds throughout the night, if that works for you, and and mom is feeling well rested, baby is well rested, and again, you're able to function as that happy, healthy family unit. Who might I tell you to change it? But it's, it's the parents that are coming to me are ready to make those changes, and whatever they're doing isn't working anymore, right? So it's then when we put that plan together and educate them on why we're taking those steps,

Casey O'Roarty 17:28
right? And, you know, that's funny, because, and I think we're not always sure what we want and what we don't want. One of my a member of my parenting community, wrote in when I said I was talking to she wrote, how do I stop co sleeping with my three and a half year old? And then she wrote, I actually don't mind the co sleeping, just the fact that I have to lay there for an hour to get him to sleep. I wish he could fall asleep on his own So Mommy had some time in the evening. So even in that comment, you can hear kind of the rub. Yeah. Do

Alanna McGinn 18:12
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a lot of parents don't mind doing what they're doing, right? But they would, they would, they're hoping for something else. Do you know what I mean? So it's, it's, again, putting that plan in place. And that plan is, it's, it's made of of so many different pieces of the puzzle, other than just the method, right? That's what we often think of.

Casey O'Roarty 18:37
So when we're talking about a three and a half year old, and I think rather whether they're in bed with you or in the room with you or in their own room. When I think of my three and a half year olds, who, by the time they were three and a half, they were sleeping in their own space, in their own room, and they and it wasn't all night long. We had an open door policy, but you you know what the direction we went to was, will you start? You get you're going to start in your room. And even that was a process. Just the bed that we had, the routine we had, we'd lay down, we'd read books like, what kinds of ideas do you toss out to parents who are just ready for that togetherness the end of the routine to not take an hour, to not take an hour, you mean, for bedtime, yeah? And not necessarily the whole routine, because I, you know, I'm a strong advocate of bedtime routine starts the minute we all decide to go upstairs, yeah? But just that final step of, okay, we've read stories, maybe I've sung a song or two, especially when they were three and a half, and now I'm ready to get up.

Alanna McGinn 19:42
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I always say the differences between dealing with three year old and say an eight month old. Okay, so that we have to look at the fundamentals. The fundamentals are the same in in healthy sleep and independent sleep. So, you know, are we working with an environment that's conducive to sleep? Late Are we following an age appropriate schedule? So if bedtimes too late, and that's often an issue that we see is kids are just going to bed way too late. And I get it, we all busy lives. Parents are getting home from work by the time you get dinner on the table and eat, and suddenly, you know, kids are just going to bed too late, and at that point they're overtired. And you know, overtired kids aren't kids who are falling asleep easily. They're wired. They've gotten their second wind, and they're showing you those signs that they're just not ready to go to bed. So is, is bedtime age appropriate? Are we following a consistent, calming bedtime routine? As you mentioned, the importance of that and that that is hugely important. So all those are the same, okay, we're when we're whatever age we're dealing with, right? The difference when we're we're getting into toddlers and preschoolers, is setting those boundaries and setting those limits, and the first step in doing that is communication. So a three and a half year old is able to understand what's expected of them in terms of bedtime, is able to understand the importance of sleep, so let's, let's talk about it. You know, let's not just say you have to sleep, but why do they have to sleep? You know, we say why you have to treat others with kindness. We say why you have to eat your fruits and vegetables, right? So, why not? Why? You know, why is sleep important to you? How does sleep make you feel? How you feel when you've had a really good night's sleep? How does mom and dad feel when when they've had a really good night's sleep? You know? How does it feel when you haven't had such a good night's sleep? So once they understand the importance of sleep and why they need to go to bed, when they need to go to bed, they're more likely to kind of follow suit. That's not the be all and end all by any means, but parents also kind of have to take that control back a little bit at that time. Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 21:45
Well, and what's coming to mind for me is just that, not only the conversation around sleep, but also not being at bedtime, but throughout the day, but also saying, you know, like, kind of, what do you think about guiding them into it? So, okay, tonight, you know, for the next three nights, I'm gonna wait, you know, I will lay with you for 20 minutes, and then the next three nights, I will lay with you for 15 minutes and kind of slowly taper off that time so that when it's the five minute, which I think is really okay. I mean, I think there's a lot of crazy thought, Pat. I think it's overtired, but I'm wondering, like, that whole sense of abandonment, you know? I

Alanna McGinn 22:28
mean, it's the end of the day, and all of a sudden you're being left alone and and you're three, yeah? And you don't I mean, there's a lot of methods that you can use, and that fading, fading away method is a great one. Okay, you know, you can do it that way again, but that's again, bringing it back to communication, right, right? So this is how it's going to be. This is how it's going to be, or what the expectations are. So no matter what method you use, um, communicate to them, don't just kind of surprise them with and just say, hey, guess what? You know, I know I laying with you to fall asleep for the past three years, and tonight, I'm just gonna leave right in like, of course, they're not going to respond to that very well, so, and it's going to increase that anxiety. So definitely, you know, again, opening up that communication, no matter what method you use.

Casey O'Roarty 23:12
And you know what I love about the what happens, kind of the umbrella effect, or maybe that's not the right term, but it's also, I'm hearing a lot of relationship building a lot of I see you, I hear your needs, I see your needs, and here are my needs. I'm hearing like the that kindness and firmness show up in that which you know are so awesome and important. So what about infants? Right? Gosh, I wish I knew you and mine were infants. How? What do you recommend for my listeners? With infants like, you know, we hear self soothe, and we also feel like we want to protect our brand new, or not brand new, but our little babies, we want them to feel uncomfortable.

Alanna McGinn 23:56
Yeah, you know, I'd like to kind of in terms of self soothe. I mean, I know that's such a hot button topic. I like to, instead, not say self soothe, but just to say, just to change that term to capabilities, to show that our kids are capable of doing it. So forget self soothe. You know, you know, sorry,

Casey O'Roarty 24:19
I'll I'm forgetting self soothed. I

Alanna McGinn 24:20
like that. I like that. So just, you know, to show that our babies and our kids are capable of doing it means the world to them, right? So, so, you know, we have to, you know, first one thing when we're dealing with infants is to make sure that it's age appropriate steps and that it follows their parenting philosophy. And regardless of whatever that philosophy is, if a child's being raised right in a loving attachment filled home, whatever route you're going to take is not going to be hurtful or harmful to to your child's attachment with that parent. Okay, um, sleep tree. And like I, you know, I know I mentioned it before, but we have to remember that sleep training at. More than just choosing that method, and unfortunately, that's what's given it such a bad rap, that as soon as we hear that term, and I also hate that term, sleep training, I

Casey O'Roarty 25:08
hate that term,

Alanna McGinn 25:09
I know, but it is like, yeah, it is dogs, I know, although I would have liked to put them

Casey O'Roarty 25:15
in a crate, yeah, a few different times. But

Alanna McGinn 25:19
sometimes the crib, the crib can be, yeah? It's like a huge crate. That's why I always tell people, you know, don't do the bed transition sooner than you have to keep them in that in that crib, as long as you can. Yeah. But, you know, when we hear the term it's we automatically think, Okay, what method do we have to choose? Do we have to do cry it out? Do we have to do no cry, you know, but it's important to look like. I said, it's sleep training. It's a four piece puzzle. So unless all of those pieces are in place, the method, actually, you know, being the last piece of the puzzle, the plan isn't going to work. So I have a lot of parents that have that come to me and say, you know, I tried, cried out, and it just it didn't work. But if we're not focusing on the other pieces of the puzzle, it's not going to work. No matter what you do, even if you try a no cry, it's not going to work. So before even starting the puzzle, we need to know, Is the child old enough? So are we taking age appropriate steps to start a formal sleep training plan? And then we need to look at each piece of the puzzle. Do you want me to get into each piece? Well?

Casey O'Roarty 26:20
So yes, and I so it's so funny the experience that I'm having right now, because as I hear you talk about cry it out, and then I hear no cry, and my arms are literally extended, yes, and that's such a huge continuum. And it's so common for us to think we either have to do it one way or the other and forget that there is so much, so much in that range in the middle, yeah, I think we do that with a lot of of our parenting. I

Alanna McGinn 26:53
mean, it's very either or, yeah, mindset so and again, it's just, it's just knowing that right? And often, everything that we do, like you said in the middle, often can, it can mean that we don't have to choose a method, because that in itself, you know, what we do during the day affects night, and what we do at night affects during the day in terms of sleep. So sometimes, just making certain tweaks and changes throughout the day, suddenly, you know the issues that we're having at night go away, and we don't have to choose a method. So, you know, when I'm working with parents, the last part of our consultation, the last 10 minutes, is talking about the method. So that just shows you everything else that's involved in it. Yeah, I would love to hear some of the steps. So yeah, the listeners would too, of course. So the the first thing to know is, you know, is your child old enough, and, you know, going back to the mess and, and I always say, probably the biggest mistake, I think, that new parents make, is they start, and when I say a formal sleep training plan, that means, you know, dealing with all the pieces of the puzzle, okay, right? And you just decided that it's something you're going to focus on Exactly, exactly. And they started too soon, right? So, you know, when we're dealing with that fourth trimester with with babies, biologically speaking, their internal sleep rhythms. They're, you know, our circadian rhythms, or biological clock. It's not developed enough yet to be put on a schedule. And you do have those parents that want their their kids on that routine. You know, those set wake times, those set nap times, those set bed times. But if you're starting too soon, biologically speaking, it's impossible for that to happen, right? So, you know, the plan doesn't really go into place, and then parents get discouraged, and then they give up, and then sleep training didn't work. And that's just that stigma that just kind of sticks, right? So viral, yeah, yeah, making sure that the child is old enough, you know, anywhere between four to six months is, age appropriate, depending on when baby was born, baby was born early. You have to factor that in, you know, as well. And then the first piece of the puzzle would be the child's sleep environment. So, is it a consistent sleep environment? Is it a safe sleep environment when we're dealing with the little babies? Is it conducive to sleep so, you know, cave like settings, dark, quiet, cool. You know that really factors in, both for night sleep and especially for naps as well. And then our with the next piece of puzzle would be the consistent schedule for naps and and baby. So once we can start putting them on more of a consistent routine, hitting those those those times for naps can really help, kind of sink them into that restorative sleep, and sink them into help start stretching out those naps. That's a common issue, is lengthening out those cat naps.

Casey O'Roarty 29:30
And do you talk, do you talk to your clients about, you know, paying attention to the rhythms that the baby is showing them, as far as, like, when they want to sleep. And yeah,

Alanna McGinn 29:43
so we, we good night sleep. Site works very much with the science of sleep, so the biological timing of sleep. So we do work with the cues, like you were saying, watching the cues of your child. But then we also do watch the clock too, yep, um, so we do work on a clock based. Plan as well. Okay, um,

Casey O'Roarty 30:01
I love that. I love that holistic. I'm hearing a lot of really thoughtful, holistic mindset coming up happening here with what you offer, that's just

Alanna McGinn 30:11
great. It's on the child. It depends on the child. It depends on the age too, right? So, um, you know, a six month old will have a slightly different schedule than, say, a 10 month old, not, not, I'm going to be honest, not a huge difference, but slightly different. So you know, it's you do still have to watch those cues, but we also want to make sure that we're sinking their sleep when their body, their natural clock, is telling them to be sleeping, because that's when they're going to get the best restorative sleep possible. That's when those naps are going to lengthen out, and that's when they're gonna start chipping away that sleep debt that might have been accumulating. So that's when we have to look at the clock a little bit more. Yeah, and then work with regular bedtime routine, as we talked about, is always important. So, you know, doing, practicing that calming routine and and doing kind of the same things. It doesn't have to be the exact same things every night, but doing, you know, the same kind of activities at night. You know, it helps prepare them for sleep, and it helps cue them that sleep is coming next, and then working with, you know, an age appropriate bedtime, so making sure that baby and child is going to bed early enough, as well rested as possible. It just helps that alone. You know, I always tell parents, if you can take away anything, bump up that bedtime, because that alone can help with some of those night waitings that they might be experiencing.

Casey O'Roarty 31:29
Do you have a PDF or a blog post or anything where you highlight age appropriate bedtimes?

Alanna McGinn 31:36
You know? What? If they go on to they go on to goodnightsleepsite.com we have blog posts. So we have baby sleep, toddler sleep, we even have adult sleep. And there's a lot of great information there that they can check out, that we'll go into more detail than kind of what I'm talking about today, for sure, perfect. Thank you. And then, and then last thing is, then choosing the method. There's a lot of methods that that you know you can choose from. There's a lot of methods that are out there, so do the research, you know, find the method that works for your family, that you guys are comfortable using. And as you said, if you have to take bits and pieces from one method, and you feel confident that you're able to kind of take that on yourself and do then do. But you know, that's kind of where we come in, as we kind of help you develop that plan and help you create that method and then support you throughout the process of it. Love

Casey O'Roarty 32:25
that. So what? And I know that you have a whole new initiative happening through your work at good night sleep site, around hashtag, bring back bedtime. So I love talking about bedtime routines. And we were talking before we started recording just about how I think that we as parents, I mean bedtime routines. For people with kids under five, they're like, Well, yeah, of course, bedtime routines. But then as our kids get older, we have this idea that we should be able to just say oh, from the couch, right? Yeah, okay, head on up to bed. We love you, yeah, and then that's not what they do. You know, that's that, or, apparently, for some people, that happens, it doesn't happen in my house, right? So tell talk about bedtime routines.

Alanna McGinn 33:18
So you know, we're just, yeah, I, you know, as I said to you before, that bedtime is like, the, you know, the goal line for us. It's like, just getting to that bedtime. It's just end of the day. And it's just like, we just, you know, even dealing with parents of toddlers and babies, you know, it's just like, just get me to bedtime. You know, that's I just need them all to go to bed. And I know we've kind of talked about three year olds, you know, providing that that I always say, give yourself about 30 minutes to have a nice, calming bedtime with your child, because providing that one on one solid attachment time at bedtime might diminish some of those wakings at night where they now they don't feel like they need to have that one on one With you at night, because they've had it at bedtime. So, you know, also look at it as a little tool to help if you're kind of struggling with any with any night wakings. But basically, bring back bedtime as a long term movement that we created to increase the public awareness of the importance of reestablishing a bedtime routine between parent and child, but you know what? Also between parent and parent and between the individual. So to bring back your own bedtime routine, just to better connect and build the attachment with our loved ones, you know, while at the same time promoting proper sleep hygiene for the entire family. So, you know, we live in such a busy world. Our days are blurs. Often, families are kind of, you know, parents are kind of two ships passing throughout the day. You know, with our older kids between activities and school and this and preschool and picking up from daycare and and doing all this, it's, you know, it's, it's hard, yeah, and. Finding that balance isn't easy. So bedtime routine and just the moment at bedtime is an opportunity for all families to slow down, disconnect, to come together and to to fill that attachment that that is sometimes impossible to do throughout the day, right? So it's just bringing back. And it doesn't have to be. It could be, you know, we created bring back bedtime as a free resource for parents because it shows that there's different activities that you guys can do at night with your kids, between partners, again, between the individual that can help bring back that bedtime. And it could be, you know, coloring with your child, you know, starting a book club with your child or with your partner at vet. It doesn't, you know, with adults, it doesn't have to just be sex and sleep. You know, although it's

Casey O'Roarty 35:52
important to be having sex everyone, I just want to put that out there absolutely.

Alanna McGinn 35:57
But, I mean, let's be honest, we don't want to necessarily be doing that every night. Sometimes, no, we don't, but you can still have that connection with you, right? It doesn't just have to be okay, good night. And, you know, Dad's on the couch watching TV and mom goes upstairs, or vice versa. You know, you guys just turn off the lights and no talking and go to bed. Um, there's different things that you can do. You know, one of my consultants wrote a blog post on creating a playlist, and I thought that was such a good idea. You know, fill your playlist with songs that bring back memories of the two of you and discuss those memories and talk about them. You know, when do we get a chance to do that during the day? Yeah, that time's a great opportunity to do that. So

Casey O'Roarty 36:36
and, you know, I yeah,

I often tell parents too, and because I notice it in my own house, when bedtime starts to become something that I dread because my kids are dragging their feet or fighting with each other. I come back to the idea that behavior is code, and I start to remember that probably what is happening is the kids are feeling disconnected. That's right. And as soon as I remember that, I you know, and and for us, like we have, it's so much easier when I my mindset is okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be engaged in this. We do an hour, you know, like, it's an we come upstairs, and it's just, and everything is so much smoother and easier. The longer the amount of time we have, like, the shorter it is, the worse it is to live with, because they can

Alanna McGinn 37:44
feel you rushing through it. Do you mean like they see, they get what's going on, you know? And we often underestimate that, they understand what's happening. And you're right, when they're acting out like that, they're it's not just what they're acting out about. It's it goes deeper than that. So, so, you know, what can we do with them? You know, one of, again, one of the blog posts is on adult coloring and kids coloring. Adult Coloring is huge right now, and I am such a supporter of it, because I think it's such a great way for adults to just, you know, calm, to bring that heart rate down and to calm down and to to practice that mindfulness, that that helps us fall asleep better, but take out your coloring book with your you know, I'm, I'm a huge supporter of literacy, obviously, but it doesn't have to just be reading a bedtime story. Maybe two or three nights. You guys color together, and while you're coloring, you can start asking those open ended questions, yes, that we, you know, rather than, how was school? Fine. What'd you do today? Nothing. You know, it gives you kind of that backdrop to to open up that conversations that parents want to open up with their

Casey O'Roarty 38:50
kids. Yeah, so, and I've worked with parents too, who are challenged by bedtime because they might be on their own with more than one child, or or their kids are sharing a room and keeping each other up. How do you support what are some solutions that you've offered for parents in those kinds of situations?

Alanna McGinn 39:12
So I was a parent in that situation, you know? I have, I have three kids. My youngest are twins, and how old are they? My eldest is eight, and my youngest, they'll be five in March. So okay, so shout out to my friend, Pamela. We're talking to someone about sleep with twin. Four year olds, just like you, share a room. The twin share room. And you know when they were, you know, my husband works some nights, so, yeah, I was often putting three kids to bed by myself. And so, you know, I was, I was in the trenches, like I still am in the trenches sometimes, you know, so, so I get it, so it's just, you know, how I tell my parents is okay? What is a routine that can work from you again? There's no cookie cutter routine, yeah, if you have multiple kids. Is, you know, my twin parents, and you know, they'll say this to your friend too. I take bath time out of bedtime routine, and often bath time is included because it's, it's, you know, promoted as a calming way to calm your child. And I get it, it's great. But as a twin parent, or as a parent with multiple kids, trying to get everybody down at the same time, bath time can be a struggle. So if you have to fit bath time into another time during the day, that's fine. It doesn't have to be included in bedtime. So create a bedtime routine that works for your family. Do you know what I mean? And And once you're in it, and you're doing it, and it becomes kind of just a second skin, it's easy to do, so, you know, don't again. There's no cookie cutter way to do it, right?

Casey O'Roarty 40:42
And what about when said twins might be waking each other in the middle of the night? Like, how do you what are some support that you give to parents around that I I didn't ever really have a situation. I mean, when my kids woke in the night, they tended to just find their way into my room, yeah, and fall asleep again. I didn't really have kids that would wake up and then be awake,

Alanna McGinn 41:04
right? Yeah. So it's, you know, getting down to, well, we have to get down to the main issues. Why are they waking okay? So Is it fear based? Is one waking up because, you know, they maybe, are they having neighbors? Are they scared of something, and then, because of that, waking up? The other one? Is it because they're over tired? So, you know, when we're dealing with four year olds, you know that age group, they're starting kindergarten. You know, a lot of them are starting full day school when they're they're used to, I don't, I don't know how this, how it is in the States. I'm just talking really, yeah, Canada, that's when they start their full day everyday program. And so a lot of these kids are going from being home all day nap time to, boom, they're thrown into a classroom with 30 kids. They're there all day long like that's a huge transition for them, right? And that really promotes an overtired body. So, you know, are they overtired? So, you know, do we need to work on an earlier bedtime? Do we need to work on do we need to focus on sleep right now? So work with, why are the wakings happening? And then to deal with the wake again, communication, talking to them about it. I don't normally recommend splitting twins up unless they absolutely have to. Okay, I don't even recommend, I'm all about kids sharing a room like I think it's great. So it's just it's getting kind of to the root cause of, why are they waking up? And normally, once we kind of tackle that, the wakings tend to stop. And it's providing those boundaries and those limits too, right? So if they're ruling the show at two o'clock in the morning, Mom and Dad have to start ruling. I always tell my my parents of toddlers and and preschoolers, who's training, who right? And normally they don't like the answer, because they know the answer and it's not the parents. So Right? Taking that control back, and it doesn't have to be in a dominating, aggressive yelling manner, but parents, kids need to know like, hey, we don't wake up at two o'clock in the morning like this, Mom and Dad, don't, you don't either, you know, but they need to know that, right? But

Casey O'Roarty 43:09
I hear, I think, the most powerful piece to that is getting underneath what's happening to why, how? What's the underlying issue that's going on in solving the problem there is then going to filter into the mischief that's happening. Yeah? So what about we were talking I was, you know, I have my own agenda, yeah, sometimes, and I have a little I have a sleepwalker, and he and one of my other, one of the parents wrote in too that she has an 11 year old who is a bed wetter. And Ian, my boy, he gets up and his eyes are wide open, and he's talking to me, and I know he's asleep, because typically he's scared, or the last time he was like, I'm just sad. And what I do is I take him to the bathroom where he has a gigantic pee, right? And so what? What's what starts to happen? What are some issues that can rise to the surface in that eight to 12 year old age range?

Alanna McGinn 44:11
Yeah, so that eight to 12 year old age range is a big one. And that's, you know, I'm often getting questions from parents with nine and 10 year olds saying, you know, what happened to my perfect sleeper? It just kind of all went downhill. So, you know, there could be a couple things, if we look at, kind of the medical reasons, and I'm not saying that this is what's going on, but Right? You know, sometimes when we're seeing issues like consistent, restless sleep, sleepwalking, bed wetting, we need to look at, do they possibly have sleep apnea? Like sleep apnea doesn't discriminate, even kids could have it, you know. So are they mouth breathers? Are they snores? Normally? It's just a, you know, something that you can talk to your doctor about, and then your doctor would then refer you to an ENT, so an ear, nose and throat to check the tonsils and the adenoids. Okay? That's not normally the case, though. I'm just kind of sure gotta touch it, but that's not normally the case. Yeah. What can also happen is there's a lot of biological changes, right? So when, when our children go through puberty, and, you know, it doesn't necessarily happen at 10 or 11 years of age, but it's happening younger and younger. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 45:11
think it's definitely happening at our house, yeah,

Alanna McGinn 45:15
yeah. For natural sleeper, that shift, right? And when they release that melatonin, it happens later and later. So this is why there's a lot of talk about pushing out school times for teens later, our start times for school later, because biologically speaking, their body can't fall asleep until late at night. So now we're working with later bedtimes, because that's just when they're falling asleep and they have to get super, you know, up super early in the morning, and they're just they're not getting the right amount of sleep, even though their body's telling them to sleep later, they still need the right, the same quantity of sleep. So there could be some biological issues that are going on, unpredictable routine and poor sleep environment, for sure. So at that age, we're looking at an increase in homework, an increase in after school activities and sports. Bedtimes are getting pushed out later and later, over scheduling, right? You know, at least everybody overtired and exhausted a lot of technology. So, you know, they've got their devices in their rooms. You know, try and create that family docking station so that everyone can plug in overnight outside of their bedrooms, and it keeps that tech out, keep TVs out, even for parents. So so we're looking,

Casey O'Roarty 46:33
Oh, I lost you. Alana, I can't hear you anymore. Oh, no. Oh, there you are. Whoo, all right,

Alanna McGinn 46:43
can you still hear me? I can hear you. You're back. Okay, perfect. And then also, at that age we're dealing with, you know, there's a lot of social anxieties that start happening at that age, a lot of fears. You know, fears become more realistic. They overhear our conversations. And we're not just, it's not just fearful about monsters anymore, but it's, it's real life stuff that start, start those concerns. So again, getting down to the issues of why they're waking

Casey O'Roarty 47:09
so, you know, and I think that for from my situation, you know, because he is eliminating so much from his body, you know, it's, I think for us, it's also, you know, we really try to keep him from guzzling because he kid guzzles water, yeah, so it's enough. And for him, his, like I said, his body wakes up. It's very creepy, but his body wakes up and he wanders in. But I know for some people, their kids, are sleeping so hard, right? And how, what kind of and they're sleeping so hard that their body isn't noticing that it needs to pee,

Alanna McGinn 47:49
right? Well, and it but often it's the opposite, right? So if the body's waking up to go to the bathroom, okay, that's also telling us that, that they're not in that deep, deep sleep. Oh, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 48:04
so maybe it's not that they're sleeping heavy,

Alanna McGinn 48:06
it's that they're sleeping later. So that, I mean, you know, it's, it's all, it's always, again, it's working with a couple of things coming back to, are we dealing with something like sleep bathing or something like that? So it's always something to talk to your doctor about. Definitely just not to say you have to go make out an appointment, but at your next for your kids, it's always something to bring up to your doctor. But are you practicing those consistency patterns so once we start making sure that child's going to bed at an age appropriate bedtime and getting that restorative sleep that helps promote them and get them into that deeper state of sleep, right? Do again, just getting back to the fundamentals, bringing them back to a calming bedtime routine, eliminating that technology watch what they eat and drink before bed. So I know you say he guzzles water, but try and put a limit on that, you know, after dinner, really just kind of cap that, you know, making sure the environment is conducive to sleep. So are they sleeping in an environment that that is promoting proper sleep hygiene?

Casey O'Roarty 49:14
Thank you. I know that that will be helpful to many listeners. And so my last question is, I'm wondering, because I know that you you work with the whole family. So what are some of the biggest obstacles that show up for adults for not getting the sleep they need? Because, to be honest, I when my kids go to sleep, when I've said good night and walked away, I can look out into the night like, Well, I mean, ultimately I have, like, 10 solid hours. I mean, obviously I'm gonna go to sleep at some point, but it's really exciting to know that I have all this time hypothetically ahead of me to just be. Take care of myself. Yeah, and that gets me into trouble, because I know I need, maybe it's a mindset shift, because going to sleep is actually taking care of myself

Alanna McGinn 50:12
absolutely. And I mean, hey, I, you know, sometimes I don't practice what I preach, because I think the same thing. It's like, Okay, kids are in bed. I have, you know, I can catch up on work. I can, you know, catch up with my husband. I can watch Nashville. I can watch Netflix.

Casey O'Roarty 50:28
Yeah, totally.

Alanna McGinn 50:30
So I totally get it, but I think the biggest obstacles that adults have is not understanding their own sleep needs, right, and the importance of practicing proper sleep hygiene. So proper sleep hygiene are the steps and practices to really promote healthy sleep and to ensure proper sleep health. So two of the most important steps, I think, would be to follow a consistent sleep pattern, so to try to go to bed and wake up at the same time. And that's hard for us to do, but it's a good habit to get into, even on the weekends, yeah, even during the holidays, to really make sure that we're going to bed at the same time and waking up around the same time in the morning, and then to remove electronics. Yeah, I mean that unfortunately we just, we live in a really asleep, deprived society, and a big part of that is because we are always connected. And, you know, sleep is one of the three pillars of health. We're looking at exercise, nutrition and sleep. And you know, if I may be so bold, because it's kind of it's what I do, sleep is the foundation of the two. I think you're totally right, you know, and but often, what do we see? What do we hear with our friends talking about it? What do we see in our Facebook feeds? Oh, I started working out. I'm gonna start this cleanse and this diet and this and that never do we see. I'm gonna start sleeping more.

Casey O'Roarty 51:56
I'm gonna post that today. Yeah, I'm gonna start the revolution. That's

Alanna McGinn 51:59
right. Unfortunately, it's always the last in our list of things to do. We totally take our sleep for granted, and we don't realize that if we're not healthy, we are our families, we are our business. You know, I'm doing a lot more corporate lunch and learns, because employers are realizing that when their employees are not getting the the kind of sleep they need. You know, they're they're not as productive, they're not as efficient. So where are businesses? Big business, biggest assets are our family's biggest assets, and we need to start focusing on that. So got to disconnect, we got to put down the technology. We got to get it out of our bedrooms.

Casey O'Roarty 52:40
Yeah, yeah, oh, man. Thank you so much for reminding me of all those things. It's so hard. Why is it so hard,

Alanna McGinn 52:50
right? There's, there's changes we have to make, too, not just for our kids, which are hard to do, but we got to make our own changes, which is just as hard,

Casey O'Roarty 52:57
for sure, for sure. Um, thank you so much for coming on the show. This was really fun and really informative. Tell the listeners about the offers that you have through the website.

Alanna McGinn 53:08
Yes, so we offer free 50 minute consultations so that we can hear more about your family sleep concerns, so whether it's dealing with your kids or dealing with you, and then we're able to explain our services and offer some tips and advice. And it's a great way to make sure just that there's that connection between you know, the consultant and you before you work together.

Casey O'Roarty 53:29
Mm, hmm, awesome. And your website is goodnightsleepsite.com

Alanna McGinn 53:34
goodnightsleepsite.com that's right. And where else can they find you? Well, they you can find us all over social. So Facebook, Good night. Sleep site, Twitter and Instagram. We're GN sleep site, and we also have a YouTube channel as well. Oh, cool site, ink, so we're all over the place. Wow.

Casey O'Roarty 53:53
Thank you. And one last thing, so you had mentioned on the website that you so there's resources for parents, as far as breaking it down by age and like some of the things you talked about around age appropriate bedtime and age appropriate steps to be taking, they can find a lot of that on your website. Yeah,

Alanna McGinn 54:11
they can find that all on our blogs. Each of our consultants has their own blogs too, so you get through to their sites, all on our national site. So goodnightsleepsite.com and you can also get to bring back bedtime, and there'll be even more resources on that as well.

Casey O'Roarty 54:29
Great. Thank you so much.

Alanna McGinn 54:33
Thanks so much for having me. Casey. All

Casey O'Roarty 54:34
right. So there you go. Alanna again. Isn't she so awesome? Check the show notes for all the links that were mentioned in the show for how to find and follow Alana and her work. Also remember to subscribe through iTunes next week, there's. Day week from Thursday, Thanksgiving is the contest. The contest begins. You want joyful courage, swag. You want it, it's cool, you'll like it. And I want to say that I'm going to end the show with a new little piece, a new little goodbye. I want to do some shout outs to some mamas that I know who listen and give feedback, and I just love them and appreciate them and want to honor the work that they do in their own family, with their kids and in the art community. So a big shout out to Gavin's mom, Amy, in New York State. Love you. Girl grace, Nelson Carter Blake, and Levi's mom, Loretta here in Monroe, Zoe in Harper's mom Ashley in Seattle, Janice in Michigan, Amy in Boston, and Carissa in Chicago. Thank you. Thank you for being so engaged in the community and always offering me so much good feedback and support. So I'm gonna start ending the show with shout outs to people in the community. If you are thinking like what we're community, I want you to know that you're on Facebook, we have a really great group. It's called live and love with joyful courage, and it's a place where we can support each other and laugh and cry and do whatever we need to do, because this is a collective journey, and we need we need our brothers and sisters who are also walking the path of parenting in a way that is effective and helpful and loving and compassionate. So join the tribe, and I'll see you there. Have a great, great day. Thank you so much for listening. Big, huge love to each and every one of you today and every day. Bye.

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