Eps 174: Learning to be a more mindful communicator with Oren Jay Sofer

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Hey, what is up podcast, listeners, I am so glad that you have found yourself at the joyful courage podcast. This is a place where we celebrate real and raw conversations about raising kids with conscious parenting and positive discipline. I'm your host. Casey o'rourdy, I'm a facilitator. I'm a parent coach. Most importantly, I am a mom of two teenagers, and I am walking the path of more mindful, intentional parenting right alongside of you. Please know that this podcast is created for you. I create it for you and for our community. And if you love it, feel free to share it with all of your family and friends over social media. Let's spread the word. Let's get as many people as possible listening to this show. Please write a review on Apple's podcast, formerly known as iTunes, and join the Patreon community, where parents, just like you are contributing just a small little amount each month to the show and enjoying perks like monthly webinars and community conversations about the content you hear on this podcast. Check the show notes for links and more details on all of that. I am so, so grateful that you are here and now enjoy the show. Hi listeners. My guest today is Oren J Sofer. Oren is the author of say what you mean a mindful approach to non violent communication. He leads retreats and workshops on mindful communication at meditation centers and educational settings around the United States. Oren is a graduate of the IMS Spirit Rock teacher training program. He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University, teaches in the Insight Meditation community and is a somatic experiencing practitioner and a certified trainer of nonviolent communication. Oren creates mindfulness training programs for a number of organizations, including Mindful Schools Kaiser Permanente and 10% happier. He lives in Richmond, California. I'm thrilled to welcome him to my show. Hi Oren, welcome to the podcast.

Oren Jay Sofer 2:16
Hey Casey, thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:18
You are welcome. Please share a little bit with the listeners about how you found yourself doing what you do. Sure.

Oren Jay Sofer 2:26
So I actually got my start with meditation practice. I was in college, 19 years old, feeling lost and overwhelmed and struggling, as many of us do at that particular age. My parents were getting divorced, you know, kind of standard stuff for for a 19 year old. And so I turned to meditation to try to get some direction and understanding in my life. And found a lot of benefit in contemplative practice, and it really helped me to start to mature as an individual and get a handle on some of my emotions and thoughts and, you know, some of the personality patterns that accrue over time as we grow up. But what I found after a few years was that the stuff that I was practicing in silence, you know, while meditating, would magically vanish and evaporate

Casey O'Roarty 3:24
to you too. Yes,

Oren Jay Sofer 3:26
I had a, you know, a disagreement or a conflict with somebody, a co worker or a friend. It was very difficult to actually stay mindful and present, or, you know, let alone connected to kindness and patience and compassion, all these beautiful things, and then, you know, with family, it was like, forget about it. It was seemed impossible. So, you know, I realized I need something to help bridge this gap between what I'm learning and really feeling so passionate about in my contemplative practice, into the rest of my life and into my relationships, because if it's not showing up there, then what's the point? So that's when I came across just the whole field of communication training, and I was, I was like, you know, a sponge to water. I was so hungry and thirsty for these tools. And what I found was that it was like a perfect marriage, that it gave me the skills to translate into action, into my relationships, all of these beautiful values of my contemplative practice. And so that was in my mid 20s. And then for the last couple of decades, I've been exploring this intersection between the inner work of meditation, mindfulness and contemplative practice, and what we could call the outer work, or the relational work, of being with other human beings and speaking in skillful ways and having more meaningful conversations.

Casey O'Roarty 4:54
I love that, and I think that it aligns so well with the work. I do out in the world with parents too, because I'm a positive discipline trainer, and the concepts and the theories and the strategies make so much sense, and I watch parents so excited to go home and and try them on with their kids, and then often times, get the return response of, oh, but I was just so mad that I didn't remember, or I was so overwhelmed that I just couldn't access that tool. And so what I'm hearing you say is you found a way to marriage those inner world and outer world practices, and you wrote a book. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So your books say what you mean? Will you talk a little bit about what inspired you to write that

Oren Jay Sofer 5:42
sure, you know, I think, I think two main things Casey, the first was wanting to share what's been so meaningful and useful for me in my own life. You know, I I just found that my relationships, my friendships, my work, everything became so much, not only easier, but more enjoyable, more enriching, more rewarding, when I was able to navigate differences of opinion and views and mistakes or misunderstandings with more confidence and ease. So really wanting to share those, those tools, with others, so that they can benefit from them. And then also looking around, just looking around at our world today. You know, when I started writing this book, was about three years ago, so before some of the most intense polarization that we're seeing today in our country and even around the world, that's that's happening, but really recognizing the need for these tools, obviously, there's, there's a lot of different capacities that we as a species need to draw on and develop to meet the challenges that we're facing. But communication is one of the most central and core ones, if we can't actually listen to each other and have a meaningful conversation when we disagree, you know, it's impossible to work together to address the challenges that we're facing. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 7:12
I talk a lot about being in response versus reaction, whether it's with our kids or our partners or other drivers, and as I've kind of dove into that work, and you know, noticing, even in my my especially in my own practice, how much of the time I spend in automatic pilot. And I think for new listeners, I've talked about this a lot on the podcast, but when we're talking about mindfulness and being conscious about what it is that we're doing, it's different than that surface level automatic pilot kind of reaction to life. And I think that there's a lot of humans that don't even realize that that is their operating system.

Oren Jay Sofer 8:05
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you go out on the street and you know you you ask people, are you aware? Yeah, most people would say, yeah, yeah. I'm aware right now. I'm awake, like walking around, doing right, doing things. But if you ask somebody, you know, do you have choice about how you respond when someone does something that triggers you or upsets you? Or if you ask someone, are you aware of why you're doing what you're doing from moment to moment, or are you aware of the thoughts, moods and emotions that are coloring your experience during the flow of your day? You know those are looking a little bit more deeply, and those are the kinds of questions, those that's the level or starting to move into the level of awareness that we're talking about. And in my book, I talk about three foundations for successful conversations and effective communication. And the first and most essential prerequisite for any of this is mindfulness. And that the word that I use in the book is presence, and that's because mindfulness can come across as being really heady, right? It's a sense of it has the word mind in it. And are you being mindful? I'm, I'm, I get the sense I'm somewhere kind of floating up above things, looking down at them, whereas presence to me really communicates that sense of living in my own skin. You know? I'm, I'm here in a very real and grounded way, and that's really what we're talking about, is having having full awareness of what's happening and having access to our wisdom and our resources internally so that we can navigate a conversation or circumstances that are challenging with. Out feeling yanked around by our habits and our reactions. Yeah, and

Casey O'Roarty 10:05
I love what that work has the potential to bring to the parent child relationship, because so often I think we are talking at our children or reacting from conditioning or fear of the future without realizing that, and then also, on top of it, putting a lot of blame on the child for how we are reacting, or how we are feeling, such as, you know, well, if you just wouldn't do that, or if you just listen, or if you just would have done it this way, then, you know, I wouldn't be acting like this. But what I'm hearing you speak into is really owning our own response and owning our and really getting being curious.

Oren Jay Sofer 10:53
Yeah. I mean, there are two things in what you're saying, Casey, that are really meaningful for me. And one is, is the reality that living in 2019 most parents are facing enormous pressure and demands on their time and energy, and so the level of kind of just ambient stress of raising a child today, Where the support network in the sense of community around raising children has become so absent, really just eroded over the, you know, the last century, that that there's really unrealistic demands placed on parents. So my my sense and my experience is that most parents are operating just with a baseline level of stress that's not only not conducive to their own well being, but adds an extra layer of difficulty into the relationship and the communication with children, because when we are stressed, you know, We're understanding more and more about the limits that places on our our cognitive and emotional capacities to actually engage in ways that are in line with our values and that have more more choice in them. So that's kind of just the first thing, and that's structural, and I think that that's one of the most important things for parents to to step back and recognize and have compassion for themselves, which is that, you know, what's being asked of them by modern society is unrealistic. You know, it's, it's just, it's just a setup to say, like, yeah, have a job and earn a living and, you know, balance your bank account and run a household and raise children and do it all on your own. And, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 12:42
do it home. Cook all your meals. Make sure they're all made from scratch. Grind your own flour

Oren Jay Sofer 12:47
exactly, you know. And be cheerful and happy and relaxed all the same time, you know. And it's like, so then you get people like me saying, hey, maybe you should meditate every day. And it's like, yeah, right,

Unknown Speaker 12:56
right, you know. Like,

Oren Jay Sofer 12:57
what am I gonna do that so? So I'm really, I try to be really practical and say, like, you know, you don't need to be meditating for half an hour every day to use these tools. You know, we can integrate short moments of awareness into the flow of our day. And, yeah, you know, if you can, if you can find five or 10 minutes of quiet to sit and close your eyes and just breathe and de stress. That's great, you know? But we can all find five seconds, right? We can all find 10 seconds in the day between things, how much of our day is spent waiting, waiting in traffic, waiting in line, waiting on hold. You know, those are moments where, instead of running down the to do list, planning, what's going to happen later. Nursing old, you know, wounds or grudges, we can actually use that time to nourish ourselves and to come back to a baseline of well being by just pausing by feeling the sensations of your body. If you're in the car, feel your sensations of your body sitting as you sit at a traffic light, if you're standing in line, you know, feel your feet on the ground, feel the support of the earth, and take a few breaths to just arrive and slow down in the moment. So having creating daily rituals like that, where at certain moments in the day, during certain activities, it becomes a new habit to use that to strengthen awareness and balance and presence that can that does a few things. Number one, it starts to help us to metabolize the stress that we're experiencing so that it doesn't accumulate as much over the course of the day, and then we are more resilient and more present and available for our children. The other thing it does is it helps us to increase the baseline level of.

Of awareness and kindness and patience with which we're living. And this is one of the things that a lot of the research is pointing to these days, is that the benefits of the real benefits of mindfulness practice and loving kindness, practice and all these different contemplative techniques is not the momentary boost that you get for five or 10 minutes or longer after doing a session of practice. The real value is shows up over time in what's called a trait effect, that our baseline level of awareness or of kindness or whatever it is we're practicing increases, so that our default, the whole kind of like the water table, raises up so, so that's one of the things I'm hearing, and what you're saying that I wanted, I really just wanted to emphasize and acknowledge for for everyone listening well,

Casey O'Roarty 16:05
and I now I'm going to circle back and say, I love this. Everything that you're saying, um, really validates something that I do with clients, and I've talked about here on the podcast, is we can't wait for the opportunities where presence is needed to practice presence, but really it's an ongoing experience. Just like any high level athlete or sports team doesn't wait for the big race or the big game to be in their practice. They're practicing every day. They're preparing themselves for that moment, and especially in the parenting journey. I mean, my kids are teenagers, so I get lots of opportunity to be in in my in my muck, and then, because I engage in a practice most of the time, most of the time, I'm making time for soul care, and I'm making time for stillness, because I do that, I have a higher likelihood that I can recognize, oh, here, all my fear buttons are being pushed right now, and that is why I want to come unglued. And so I'm going to come back into my body and feel my feet on the floor and and just decide what is the best course of action in this moment. Lots of times, the best course of action is to not say anything at all, right? Um, one of the analogies that I like to use too is I live up in the Pacific Northwest, so there's lots of established hiking trails, and if and the forest is lush, and so when you walk on those trails, you don't really need to think much about it, because so many people have walked on it before, and it's it's just well established and but if you look around, you can see the game trails. If you're looking, you can see where there's an indent in the forest. And you know what I tell parents, is, if you if we all chose the game trail, even as it's messy and we might need a machete and we trip and fall, and it's and it's and it feels uncomfortable over time, choosing that different path will wear it down, while the old path will get grown over so That's a metaphor that I like to use to kind of highlight exactly what you're saying. That when we're in the practice, we actually get to create a new way of being.

Oren Jay Sofer 18:30
Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 18:33
Yeah, yes.

Oren Jay Sofer 18:34
The other thing that you were saying Casey, that I wanted to comment on, and this starts to get into some of the mechanics of what's called nonviolent communication, which, which forms a core part of the training I have and what I teach, which is you were talking about, you know, so when we're having some kind of a stressful moment with one of our kids, or even, you know, with an adult, and the way that we perceive things through a lens of blame, you know, like if only you weren't doing this, or, you know, you shouldn't do this, or you're wrong for doing that, or it should be this way. What's happening there, it's really fascinating. Part of what's happening in the parent child relationship is some of the socialization process in that very moment that we are viewing things from a certain perspective that says that when my needs aren't met, if something isn't working for me, it's your fault, right? There's something wrong with you, and we're not fully conscious of that, because it's how we've been trained, it's how we've been conditioned. And then we're passing that on to our children, and then they internalize that, that, Oh, there's something wrong with me. I need to be different for people to like me. I need to be different in order to fit in, that my natural impulses, you know, what I want for myself, for my own happiness and fulfillment, is somehow not acceptable, or needs to be continually. Be gaged and measured, you know, against whether or not it's going to be acceptable around with the people around me. And that's very different than being aware learning to be aware and to consider the impact of our actions on others and and others needs. So one of the core premises of nonviolent communication and humanistic psychology in general, which is what nonviolent communication comes out of, is this idea that all human beings share the same needs, and that our actions, our behavior, our speech, the things that we even the things that we think to a certain degree are attempts to meet some underlying, more basic, universal need. So this sounds very, you know, kind of simple and you know, so what on the surface, but when we actually start applying it to our life and our relationships, it's really powerful, because what it does is it allows us to start to understand what's happening in a relationship without needing to resort to a language of blame, right or wrong, should or shouldn't, but actually to talk about things in terms of our needs. You know, mommy really needs to get to work right now because she wants to have, you know, she needs a job so that she can support our family and have, you know, have money to buy food and everything. And if my son or daughter really wants to play right now, I can connect with that desire. I can, I can understand and relate to, you know, sounds like you're how it looks like you're having a lot of fun, and you really, really want to keep really want to keep playing instead of, instead of hurry up. We don't have time to play right now, right and then, to be able to to acknowledge and and support and encourage the child's need, the child's desire, while also helping to make the child aware that they're not the only one who have needs, they can begin to consider the needs of others, and even very small children can can understand this concept and begin to begin to make choices based on this

Casey O'Roarty 22:17
well. And I think we call that connecting before correcting or connecting before redirecting in the positive discipline world. And I think what happens there is the difference in the two examples you gave, is we have an opportunity to nurture the soil in our communication with others, so that it feels like a safe place where people feel seen and heard, and then going back what you said about humans sharing the same basic fundamental needs, I'm curious, because with positive discipline, it's based in Adlerian theory. Are you familiar with Adlerian theory? No, I'm not. So it's Alfred. Adler was around the same time as Freud, and he had very different findings in his work. But what Adler found was that human behavior is movement in the direction of belonging and significance, or looking, you know, or movement towards a perception or a sense of belonging and significance. And the way that I talk about it is connection and knowing that we matter. So those are the that's the language that we use in positive discipline. What is the language around those fundamental needs that you talk about in nonviolent communication?

Oren Jay Sofer 23:34
Yeah, it's, it's very similar. And you know the language is, it's a broader set of needs. But I think there's, there's agreement there that one of our most fundamental needs as human beings is the need to know that we matter. Yeah, and, and this is, this is actually a really liberating insight, particularly for parents, because, you know, we can't meet all of our children's needs. That's, that's the reality, and that's the painful reality to that we need to accept, is that as much as we would like to, as much as we strive to, it's just not possible, right, right? But what we can, everybody hear

Casey O'Roarty 24:10
that, please. All you listeners out there, hear what Oren is saying right now. Okay, we're striving. It's process, not perfection. Okay, go on. Sorry,

Oren Jay Sofer 24:18
no, I'm glad, I'm glad you stopped me, because it is, it's, it's a reality check, and it's, it's, I think that there's a it's heartbreaking, you know, it's heartbreaking to recognize I can't meet all of my child's needs, and, and, and, and that's the reality, yeah, you know, as as much as I love them, as Much as I want to you know, as much as as much as I'm trying, it's just not possible. But what is possible, and this is what's liberating, what is possible is that even when we can't meet our child's needs, we can help them to know and recognize that their needs met. Matter to us. So there's a difference between agreeing to someone's request, giving them what they want, meeting their need, and knowing that our needs matter. And you know, if we just step back and consider it for ourselves as adults, for for a moment, you know when we're having some kind of an argument with someone, or when we're in some kind of a situation where there's multiple, multiple needs being considered, if we know and really trust that our perspective and what we're valuing matters to the others that are present, if we really feel understood and seen for that doesn't that take the edge off of needing to have our way? Yes, right? Because, because, as you're saying, as as you know, as as Adler was pointing out, because this need for significance and connection, or this need for mattering is so core and fundamental to us as human beings.

Casey O'Roarty 26:04
Yeah, yeah, I love that. Hey, listeners, just jumping in here for a few moments, because this is a really special month. I ended January offering the parenting teens with positive discipline audio Summit. It was an opportunity to listen to 15 amazing interviews with positive discipline trainers and lead trainers. The feedback is amazing. Minds were blown. People really feel hopeful and empowered and encouraged after listening to that summit. And really exciting news is that the whole thing has been packaged and put together for sale for you. So if you are bummed that you missed the summit, or if you're realizing Darn it, I wish I would have gotten a hold of the Forever access package, you can. You still can for the month of February, the Forever access package of the parenting teens with positive discipline audio Summit is available. Just head on over to joyful courage.com/teen. Summit. That's joyful courage.com/teen. Summit, all one word, and you can purchase the Forever access package of the summit. It's all 15 interviews for you. You can download them, keep them forever to go back to and listen to. All the transcripts are in PDF form, so you can download those. If you're like me, you need to go back and listen again and again and again to things to capture ever more nuggets of wisdom. I know that year to year, my teenagers have evolved and changed, and there are different places where I want to listen and gather information and look for resources. So think about it. Think about it. This might be the perfect investment for you, head on over to www dot joyful courage.com/teen, Summit, for more information and to get your own forever access package. Thanks. I recently was coaching a client who and this comes up a lot in two parent households where there's a difference in parenting styles. And typically, I'm working with one parent who's finding success, right, and then there's the other parent who, for whatever reason, parenting isn't the central focus of growth and development, and so they're more in the reactive state. And so this client was asking, you know, how can I approach him? How can I support my husband in his relationship with my child? Because I can see from the outside, looking in tweaks and things that he could do differently that would be so helpful. And you know, when we come into those conversations, it can feel especially if we haven't asked permission. You know, I talked to her about asking for permission and celebrating strengths and great now, because it's easy to have easy conversations. It's the hard conversations. It's the when, you know, when we have to deliver the bad news or offer feedback that might be hard for the other person to hear. You also write about intention in communication. Can you talk a little bit about that in this context? Yeah,

Oren Jay Sofer 29:33
absolutely. So, you know, I said that presence, or mindfulness is the first foundation for having more meaningful conversations. And the second is our intention. And one of the things that mindfulness does is it helps us to start to be aware of where am I coming from in this conversation? Am I, you know, subtly or not so subtly, blaming the other person? Person you know you're not doing it right. It should be this way. Am I wanting to win? Am I wanting to look good? Am I wanting to control the situation? Am I wanting to control my be my child's behavior, rather than to connect and create and and create a context where we're understanding one another's needs and learning to work together. So the intention is, is really, is really key and and one of the reasons, one of the main reasons, is because so much of our communication is nonverbal. It's not in the words that we say. And you know, children are incredibly perceptive, you know, you know, in ways that that we as adults often are still picking up on, but we're not listening to the signals as clearly. For a variety of reasons, we start to ignore our intuition and the nonverbal signals that we pick up on. But you know, even just considering if you have a conversation with someone and they're saying one thing with their words, but their body, their tone of voice, their maybe their facial expressions, is saying something else, right? Which do we believe? Which do we listen to? We listen to that nonverbal communication, and that nonverbal communication, all of that is shaped by our intention. So our intention communicates a lot in a conversation. It also directs the course or the trajectory of the conversation, because where we're coming from inside our motivation, the quality of our heart and how we're relating that's going to determine everything about how we engage and what we say next, and whether we listen or speak. So it's, it's this incredible force in shaping conversations and relationships. And so the there are many, many helpful intentions we can have in a conversation. The two that I recommend people train in and cultivate as a default are the intention to understand and the intention to care. So the shorthand that I say for this is to come from curiosity and care, love it. Can we just get interested in what's happening here, what's going on for this person right now, you know? And if it's a child, what's what's my child need right now? What's happening for them? And even if we don't say anything just regarding a child from that perspective, can be transformative for the child, for us and for the relationship?

Casey O'Roarty 32:44
Yeah, I really want to drill down a little bit on this, because I think it's so important. I talk a lot about curiosity. Curiosity is a big tool in positive discipline and curiosity as a and this is what I'm hearing you talk about curiosity as a way of being versus asking questions

Oren Jay Sofer 33:06
exactly? Yeah, I love the way, right?

Casey O'Roarty 33:08
Because we can fall very flat if it's simply like, Well, I used my what and how questions, and it didn't get me where I wanted to go, or it didn't get me what I wanted and, and it's a different ask, or it's a different invitation to say, you know, what does it feel like to be curious? And I think most of us as humans, and what I find in my classes is we spend a lot of our time from the neck up, and so the first time I ask a question like, What are you feeling? What are you feeling in your body? Parents tend to want to tell a story instead of name an emotion or name a sensation. So I'm really appreciating that, because I think of intention too, as as you're saying, what you bring to the to the conversation, like to me, it just comes back to way of being, and I remember having to let a mentor, two mentors of mine, know that I was going to move on from some work that we had been doing together, and I was really nervous to have the conversation I wanted. You know, they I look up to them and, you know, I'm kind of like a puppy, you know, like Pepe tell me how great I am, you know, like you're amazing and and so I really tried to ground myself in gratitude going into the conversation, because beautiful, yeah, because that was what was I mean, I was just so grateful to have been able to do the work with them, and it was Time for me to move on and do something different. And that was really helpful, and it changed the vibe of the conversation. Yeah, exactly.

Oren Jay Sofer 34:49
It sets the whole tone right for for the space of conversation. The way that I talk about is, as I say, you know, has to be genuine. This, the genuine intention to understand, and that comes before any of the words, because, as you're saying, we can use all the fanciest words and the right, you know, way of saying things, and active listen and I statements all you want. And if we're trying to manipulate someone, it's not gonna, you know, it's gonna, it's gonna show right? I think one of the other fundamental understandings that I'm curious, if is shared with the positive discipline work that you do in nonviolent communication, is the understanding about our emotions and the relationship between our emotions and our needs, and the perspective the understanding and non violent communication that's so transformative and empowering is that our feelings are not primarily due to other people's actions. Other people's actions or behaviors or circumstances are the stimulus for our feelings, but our feelings are a reflection of our needs, of this, this deeper layer of what matters to us and and what that does is if, if I'm feeling upset or stressed out or frustrated or disappointed or anything because of something that you did. The only way to resolve my emotion is for you to stop doing what you're doing or change your behavior, which is kind of where we started from earlier. And that's a very tenuous position to be in, because, as we all know, it's very difficult to control other people, even your own children. Yes. So if my feelings are about my own needs, if I'm feeling frustrated because I need some more support, or if I'm feeling disappointed because I wanted some more follow through on our agreements, now I have many more options for how to address that feeling, because I'm aware of where it's coming from and what's actually important to me.

Casey O'Roarty 37:11
Oh, yeah, yeah, positive discipline. This is what I love about this work, is it's not a script, it's it's deep and and it's personal growth and development. It's and with the one of the things that we do with emotions, I teach a seven week course, and by about week three or four, we're inviting parents to recognize that the way that they are feeling, the emotion that's coming up for them based on the child's behavior, is actually a clue as to what is happening under the surface for the child, right? Which then gives us like you're talking about different openings for finding solutions or getting curious, because we all with this belonging and significance piece, these needs, we're always responding from our perception of belonging and significance. So if my perception as a child is I belong when I keep everybody busy with me, that's our mistaken idea about belonging. And so that's how I show up. And a parent just, you know, typically, what'll happen is a parent, well, they just want attention. They just want attention. And actually, that child wants deep connection. And you know, life has trained them that it looks like everybody's busy with me. And so how about we offer some different opportunities for that child to feel belonging? So that's not where they go to get it. And there's, actually, it's Rudolph dricker's work called the belief behind the behavior that we teach to parents too. But it's, but it requires, it requires the adults to be literate in their own to have that emotional literacy, which is, you know, it turns out a pretty big ask.

Oren Jay Sofer 39:00
Yeah. Well, what's fascinating also Casey, is that actually, you know, and I'm curious to hear how this is for you in your work, even young children can begin to develop this literacy of feelings and needs. And one, one school that one of my colleagues was working in teaching some of these nonviolent communication tools, and, you know, helping the children to understand that when they're feeling something, when they're feeling an emotion, they're feeling angry, they're feeling sad, they're feeling, you know, upset, it's because there's something that matters to them. They have some need, and to start to learn, okay, what do I need in this situation? And there was one story of a an autistic girl who, anytime her classmates would would get close to her when she felt threatened, you know, she would scream and and often kick or bite them. And she learned by learning to be aware of her emotions and to. Actually connect them to what she needed. She learned to be able to say to her classmates, you know, please move away. I need more space. You know, huge, being able to be aware of what she needed and to ask for it, rather than to act out through, through a behavior, right?

Casey O'Roarty 40:18
And how often you know the old paradigm is, well, what consequence can we give her every time she bites to teach her that biting isn't okay, exactly right? Not useful, right? Yeah.

Oren Jay Sofer 40:30
You know another, another story that I love to share when, when talking about how these tools apply with with parenting and children, comes from a late colleague and friend of mine in balkash tan who wrote a book called a small book, parenting from your heart. That's quite good. And she tells a story about her son at I think, age three, maybe, maybe he was four years old. So their grandparents are visiting. Her parents are visiting, and they're downstairs in the room beneath them, five or 6am and her son is banging on the floor with, you know, with some toy grandparents are sleeping. So, you know, she wants her parents to continue to be able to sleep. So what's, what's her job as a parent, right,

Casey O'Roarty 41:21
right, you know, so the enemy stop exactly,

Oren Jay Sofer 41:25
exactly. The default response is, get the kid to stop banging. But fortunately, she's, you know, trained in nonviolent communication, and so she recognizes that impulse and checks it and and, you know, connecting before correcting, as you said earlier, this sense of education first and connecting and so. So she says, she says to her son, you know, Sweetheart, I'm concerned Grandma and Grandpa are sleeping underneath us, and I want them to be able to sleep as long as they want. Would you be willing to bang on the couch instead? So she gives him, you know, an alternative solution to, you know, do what you're doing somewhere else. So he pauses for a moment, three or four years old, and says, I don't want to, but I'm willing. Oh, right. So then, so she, you know, very, very interested by this. She says, Why don't you want to? He says, Well, if I bang on the couch, it's not going to wake me up, right? So all of a sudden, she becomes aware of what he's actually wanting. He's trying to meet his need for alert. He's trying to wake up in the morning. Yeah, right. So then she asks, well, sweetie, why are you willing? And he looks at her and says, because I want to consider you three or four years old? So human beings have the capacity when we are taught this perspective that we all have needs and we're all doing our best to meet them, and when we can acknowledge that and talk about them together, we can be in that space of interdependence. We can work together to meet the needs that are present. They can grasp that concept and start to become aware of of the others around us, versus when we make demands on our children, when, when we place demands on our children, we don't give them the space to consider others, yeah, because what's a healthy human response to demand pushback, exactly right? You know, like because, because we value autonomy. So as soon as I'm placing demands on a child or any other human being, the healthy response is to resist, because I value my autonomy, and in that dynamic, I have shut down the possibility of them actually being able to consider me or other people.

Casey O'Roarty 43:50
Yeah, well, and I appreciate the both and there, because I think we put kids into a double bind when we're demanding it's either hold on to your autonomy and and it's a power struggle, or, you know, really disrespect yourself, let go of your autonomy, because you know somebody of authority is telling you to and that person of authority gradually changes into a peer, or somebody you know in the teen years that we definitely want them to be thoughtful as they navigate those rough waters, too. And I love that and, and I think it's some people. I've heard feedback before where it's like, oh, it's just so much talking like, you know, as if you know, somehow that is a negative thing And granted, right? There's the there's the extreme negotiation that can show up, especially in the parent child relationship. I think we get in our heads that, and you mentioned this earlier, we cannot meet all of our kids' needs. And sometimes the answer is no, and or sometimes the answer is actually right now we are transitioning into this new thing, and we. Can and in positive discipline. It's the practice of being both kind and firm, right, connected while holding structure. And what I'm hearing you talk about is, again, just coming back to those two things can exist at the same time. Yeah,

Oren Jay Sofer 45:15
absolutely. And when we need to set limits, when we need to have that structure right? Always being able to to connect it to a reason, to a need, so that we are not reinforcing, as you were saying before, this idea of obedience to authority for its own sake that we're saying, you know, you know, sweetheart, we're transitioning now because we made an agreement to meet our friends at three o'clock, and I want to respect their time, right? It's not just because I'm the parent and I'm in charge, but it's because of this other reason or this other need that I'm you, I'm choosing to use my power in our relationship to bring to bring you along. You know, on on that point of of how of of the resistance to talking a lot and how many words and how much time it can take to work through these things. One of the core principles that I want to share with your listeners out there in using this whole range of tools that we're discussing today is that it's a very rare thing to use difference and conflict as an opportunity for learning and connection, but it's one of the most valuable skills we can give our children, right every time we are willing to Slow down and create the space and take the time to work through a conflict or a difference, even if it's not in the moment. You know after the fact, when we do have the time, we're giving our kids some of the most essential life skills and learning how to make peace. Yeah, and that's, that's the real opportunity here, is, is that, is that conflict and difference is an opportunity to learn how to be human together, which is so much of what we need today on the planet, is clearly people know how to navigate those difficult waters with others. And we have, we have that opportunity as as as parents, as teachers, as those working with children to instill those lessons and those valuable experiences in life, of recognizing that we both matter and we can work together when we're when we're interested, when we're genuine in our curiosity, when we take the Time. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 47:39
so Oren, if listeners are recognizing, are listening to us, yes, yes, yes, and acknowledging, wow, I am far from this right now and realizing that maybe they have some big moves to make towards being more effective, compassionate communicators, especially during times of conflict. What are? What is a stepping stone or a starting place that you would suggest for them to step into this work?

Oren Jay Sofer 48:06
So, you know, I think that two or three very simple, accessible things that you can start to do in your life right now today. So one is to pause. And so this is about mindfulness. And as I, as we were saying earlier, it doesn't need to be long, but try to just insert little pauses in your day. That's number one. Number two, try to get curious. Yes, genuinely, can, can I have a genuine intention to understand not just my children, but everyone, other people around me, as you said, so beautifully, Casey, making it a way of life, a way of being. And number three, and this is connected to number two, it's a way of doing number two is ask yourself, what matters to this person? What do they need right now? That's a way of getting curious, and it shifts our perspective. It helps us to connect with the shared humanity in others, regardless of how old they are, regardless of how big they are, what matters to this person. And it can be helpful to start to develop a vocabulary of these deeper needs or values or longings. And so, you know, if you just you can look online for list of universal human needs. You can go to my website and look at the resources page for my book, say what you mean. There are many lists, but actually starting to have a vocabulary and a list of words to describe this range of needs that we have for things like consideration and belonging and meaning and contribution and play and creativity and fun and rest is helpful in using that tool. Love

Casey O'Roarty 49:46
it in the context of conscious, authentic, non violent communication. What does joyful courage mean to you? Oren,

Oren Jay Sofer 49:57
thank you. That's a. That's a beautiful question. Casey, I'm just going to take a moment to let it in. Okay. So I think what joyful courage means to me is it's rooted in the recognition that the places that we struggle, the places that we're scared of, the places that we feel pain, actually hold a precious gift of our own freedom, and when we recognize that having the courage to turn towards those places and to actually include them in our life and learn from them becomes a process that's joyful because, because we know why we're doing it. It's not just about I've got to trudge through this, but we've experienced to some degree, and have a deep faith that there's, there's actually a gift waiting for me on the other side.

Casey O'Roarty 51:05
I love that. Thank you. Thank you for that. How can listeners find you and follow your work?

Oren Jay Sofer 51:11
Oh, thanks, yeah. So, so my book say what you mean is available everywhere, in bookstores and online. The best place to find out more about my work is my website, which is Oren J sofer.com that's spelled O, R, E N, j, A, y, s, O, F, E, r.com And the best way to stay in touch is through my email list. I send out a couple emails a month with some resources and tips and listeners can sign up for that really easily, right through their cell phone by sending a text message to the number 44222, with one word in it, and that word is guided, G, U, I, D, E, D. So text the word guided to 44222, and it comes with this free guided meditation series and a short ebook that I wrote on contemplative practice.

Casey O'Roarty 52:06
Oh, I'm so excited to do that. Thank you so much. I could probably talk to you for a few more hours. Oren, I'm just gonna be transparent here. This was really great. Thank you so much for coming on.

Oren Jay Sofer 52:18
You're so welcome. Casey, yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 52:26
Joyful courage community. Thank you so much for tuning in each and every week. Big thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper. Be sure to join the discussion over at the live and love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business pages on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Play. I Heart Radio, really, anywhere you find your favorite podcasts. Also, I mentioned Patreon at the beginning of the show. Check it out, www.patreon.com/joyful courage. This is where you can contribute to the show and take advantage of patron perks like content rich monthly webinars and deeper discussions about what's being shared on the podcast. You will like it. Www, dot P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent. [email protected] I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way, so reach out. You can also sign up for my biweekly [email protected] just go to the website. Sign up for that. Take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay. Big Love to each and every one of you have a beautiful rest of your day.

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