Eps 152: No More Mean Girls With Katie Hurley

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, my friends, yes, a place to be inspired, informed and hopefully entertained on the parenting journey. I'm your host. Casey o'rourdy, parent coach, positive discipline trainer, and even more importantly, mother to two children who teach me every single day about how to practice showing up in a way that is helpful, connected and humble, who also point out when I am not showing up that way, when we choose into joyful courage, we are choosing into rejoicing in the opportunities for self growth and discovery that exist on the parenting journey. Yes, I did say rejoicing in those opportunities, and it's work, but so worth it. The path we are searching for is in our practice. Super grateful you're here to practice with me. Thank you so much for being a part of the community. Enjoy the show. Hey, podcast listeners, welcome, welcome. Welcome back to the show. You may have been wondering why there wasn't a new episode waiting for you last week. I just want to remind you that this summer, for the first time since I started the podcast, I am taking a little bit of time off. You will still get interview shows every other week through July and August. However, I'm taking a break from the solo shows. I'm enjoying time with my kids and, you know, navigating all the things that show up when you run a business and have kids home for the summer and, you know, all that stuff. So yeah, so you get a show this week, and then we'll skip a week and then another show. So every other week, you're going to enjoy interviews this summer, and this week, I'm super excited to introduce you to my guest, Katie Hurley. You'll remember Katie Hurley from Episode 13, way back when she came on and talked about parenting to our children's temperaments. Katie is a child and adolescent psychotherapist, parenting expert and writer. She is the founder of Girls can empowerment groups for girls between the ages of five and 11. She's also the author of happy kid handbook, and her work can be found in the Washington Post, PBS parents and US News and World Report, among other places. She lives in LA with her two children, and today we are going to talk about her new book called No More mean girls. Hi Katie. Welcome back to the podcast.

Katie Hurley 2:50
Good morning. Thank you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:53
Please remind the listeners a little bit about what you do. Well,

Katie Hurley 2:58
I'm I do a lot of things. I'm a child and adolescent psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders and stress and learning differences by day, and I'm an author by night, and I've written two books, the first one called the happy kid handbook, and the newest one called No More Mean Girls. And I also run empowerment groups for girls.

Casey O'Roarty 3:18
Oh, that's so great. I wish you were closer to me. I could use some empowerment groups for girls with my own girl definitely. And you have a new book out, no more Mean Girls. What was your inspiration for writing this book?

Katie Hurley 3:33
Well, like I say, I do run groups for girls, and I've been doing that on and off for years now. You know, some years are just busier than others, and some years more kids come, and some years less kids come. But I've been running groups for girls because I find that so many girls who are struggling with social issues are struggling with low self esteem and the inability to really assert themselves, and they struggle to connect with other girls. And so I wanted to run these groups. They're not therapy groups, they're empowerment groups. So I wanted to really help girls discover their own self confidence, discover their strengths, learn how to speak up, learn how to really raise their voices together. And as I've been doing that and then working with girls individually, in practice, I have just seen the landscape of girlhood change so much in the past 20 years, you know, where we used to see bullying and relational aggression in high school and middle school, it has really trickled down all the way down to kindergarten, and with some parents even reporting problems in preschools all over the world. So things have changed. And I just really wanted to give parents a guide, because not every girl who struggles needs to see someone like me for therapy, but this is a confusing world we're living in, and I wanted to give some information and research and strategy to parents to try to really work with their girls at home.

Casey O'Roarty 4:53
Yeah. Thank you for that. Why do you find that the ground is so fertile now for this whole mean girl? Phenomenal. Especially, like you said, it showing up earlier and earlier. What's going on, what's happening today that is different than 20 or 30 years ago? Well, a

Katie Hurley 5:10
lot of things have changed in childhood in general, but for girls specifically. I mean, we are seeing record numbers of kids struggling with achievement, pressure and perfectionism. And one thing that we're seeing is this idea of toxic competition. You know, we took this very healthy outlet of sports, all kinds of sports, not just soccer and softball, but everything, you know, dance and horseback riding, and you name it. You know, every sport, we took this idea of this healthy outlet where girls could maybe build some self confidence, work on their self esteem, just feel good and have fun, and we turn them all into these hotbeds of competition so that they can achieve and win and hopefully get into college because of it. And when we do that, we pit our girls against one another. And I've seen it both as a therapist, but I've seen it as a coach, because I've coached multiple teams, I've seen it as a mom on the sidelines of dance and lacrosse and soccer and all sorts of sports we have, you know, girls consistently get the message that not just to go out there and learn something and have fun and learn how to work together as a team where it used to be, now they're getting the message that they have to be the best, score the most goals, get the highest, you know, percentages, and be the so called best one on the team. And when there's a best, there has to be worst. And when we condition girls to do that, they learn to sort of climb all over each other and put other girls down on their way to the perceived top. So that's become a big problem. And then we've had issues with just in school in general, has changed. You know, we've pushed down academics so much so that kindergarten is now a time where kids are expected to come in with some reading skills and expected to leave as very fluent readers, which is very different than 20 years ago. So parents are now going to preschools and saying, You have to prepare my kid for kindergarten. You know, they need to learn more. So that whole idea of preschool in kindergarten, 30 years ago, preschool was very optional, and kindergarten was the intro to school where kids played and learned some letters and colors and numbers, but, you know, really learned to get along with each other and to function in a school environment. And now kindergarten is very stressful and very competitive, so the preschools are knocking out play and having to become more academic and more structured and more rigorous. So our kids are not having the opportunity to just be children and to learn from trial and error that has gone by the wayside,

Casey O'Roarty 7:38
yeah, you know, and it's shown up the ways that it's interesting to me, especially when you're talking about sports, because even those of us that are all about, like, do it? Have fun? Get Messy. You know, it's this, there's this bigger entity that feels like it's separate. I mean, I know that it's parent made, adult made, but it's, you know, even the pressure feeling like, Well, gosh, if my kid doesn't pick one sport to play and does all these different things, they're going to somehow be behind and not get the opportunities the other kids are getting who are playing that particular sport all the time. And and even my daughter was, you know, when I asked her she did track last year in eighth grade, loved it, had such a good time, did well, but mostly it was just this amazing social experience for her. And then this year, we're encouraging her to do it again, and she's like, Mom, I'm not very good at it. And it was, it made me so sad that that was it like, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to be the best at it, so I don't want to do it at all, and then in the classroom and hearing what you're saying about preschool and kinder and those social skill development I've been in in school board parent meetings, where the message is, we shouldn't be taking Time to teach social and emotional skills in the classroom. They should be getting that from home. And there's this assumption that all kids are showing up equal, as far as you know, what's being taught at home, what's being modeled at home. And it sets them up in such a way that then they're in these really complex relationships, even at age 5678, where it gets so messy for them,

Katie Hurley 9:25
it does. And you know, even if, and it's, you know, obviously would never happen, even if every kid came in on equal footing in terms of what they're learning at home and the support they're getting at home. You know, even if, in that perfect world that happened. Kids spend the majority of their day at school five days a week, and so parents get them at the very beginning of the day. And as we all know, mornings can be a hotbed of stress and anxiety trying to get people, you know, fed and dressed and out the door on time and to their place. On time, including parents getting to work. So that's not a great time to be teaching social skills lessons, and then they get them after school, later in the afternoon, maybe they have some activities. Even if they don't, they're kind of compromised. They come home from school, they've been in survival mode all day long, learning, keeping their emotions in check, handling whatever comes their way. And we all know they come home to us, and they kind of fall apart a little bit because that's their safe place. So to start trying to teach social emotional lessons, it's you know, it doesn't even make any sense. It's you know, we we kind of, we get them at a time of day when we just need to comfort them and and sit with them and be with them and catch up. So this idea that it shouldn't be occurring in the classroom really doesn't make any sense, because the best way to teach social emotional skills is when they're happening. So you know, to help kids when they're going through things makes much more sense than to send them home and and we don't even it's not like we get daily notes home saying what occurred in the classroom or on the recess yard. So how is a parent supposed to manage that? Right?

Casey O'Roarty 11:06
And we're real quick to say, it takes a village. But then, on the other hand, we're quick to say, well, you, you're, you're in charge of that, and I'm in charge of this, instead of, how about we all come together and figure this out. I talk a lot on this show about positive discipline and the idea that behavior is motivated by the needs of belonging and significance. So how do perceptions of belonging and significance play into the social dynamics that we're seeing with young girls today, both, you know, the girls that end up as Mean Girls, as well as the girls dealing with Mean Girls,

Katie Hurley 11:40
right? It's well, like I said, a lot of this behavior is driven by low self esteem. I mean, it's very hard for parents to empathize with the so called Mean Girl in the situation, particularly if their daughter is the victim of the mean girl, right? But I always say that, you know, people who are acting in that way, girls who are choosing to act in an unkind manner. They're hurting too. They're just not saying it in the same way. They're saying it in a way that hurts someone else. And they need help too. They need support, you know, they need connected relationships. And I teach kids all the time, you know, and not to and parents will say to me, well, that lets the mean girl off the hook, and it doesn't I think empathizing and teaching kids to sort of uncover what might be driving the behavior doesn't let the mean girl off the hook. It just increases our global understanding of what's happening

with other people around us, and if we can all do that, then we can help each other out a little better. So I teach kids all the time to think of these kind of behaviors, like think of the iceberg metaphor, where the behavior, the mean behavior that's happening at school, that's the tip of the iceberg. That's what the girl is showing to everybody else. But now go under the waterline, and let's talk about what's happening underneath there? Is she suffering from anxiety? Does she have low self esteem? Are her parents having trouble at home? And she's feeling really worried about her parents? You know? Did she suffer a loss recently? There's so many infinite reasons that people choose to act the way that they do, and if we can teach our girls to build each other up and to stop and just consider the whole scenario, then you know, we can build a more empathic world. And it's hard to do it is it's hard to do that when someone is targeting your daughter, it's hard to step back and say, Well, I wonder what's happening that might be causing her to behave in this way. But if we can model that for our kids, they can learn to really think about how others are feeling and what they might be going through before they react.

Casey O'Roarty 13:48
Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up the iceberg. I talk a lot about the iceberg and looking under the surface, so yay for it to be weaving into this conversation. And anytime I've asked groups of parents, what are the life skills, you hope that your adult children have learned to embody compassion. Always makes the list, right?

Katie Hurley 14:07
We don't teach it, right? It makes the list when you ask them, but, but it's not taught on a daily basis, right? And it's not always, no, it's not modeled, because we become in those moments we protect ourselves, which is a natural human instinct. So, you know, it's that's not to judge and say everybody's doing it wrong. That's sort of the natural instinct is to protect our own. But you know, if we truly want to raise compassionate girls, then we have to get back to that iceberg, and we have to start looking beneath the waterline and find out what's going on underneath there, what is driving it. Because, you know, like, I say, it's a lot of times these girls who are running the groups and getting everybody to dress in exactly the same way, and then not letting other people dress that way. And those kind of behaviors that we're seeing in elementary school now, in second and third grade, those girls are struggling. They're doing. That because they want to be the most liked, they want to be the most popular, they feel like that gives them a feeling of high self esteem for a minute. It doesn't work long term, but for a moment when everybody wants to dress like them and follow their rules and do what they say, it does give them that feeling of being liked and being powerful. Yeah, doing

Casey O'Roarty 15:19
it of that group, yeah, and feelings of belonging. It was interesting. When I was reading your book, and I read that part about there was one group that was mentioned, like, they all wear black leggings and T shirts. And I was like, huh, sounds like every girl in a high school campus, yeah? Like teenagers today, that's the uniform. And it's interesting too. Just taking another moment around compassion. I think that the opportunities for us as parents are endless around how to model what this looks like in hot moments. It shows up when we're driving and we're irritated by another driver the week that we are recording this call. So yesterday, today is the 15th of February, and yesterday was the latest school shooting in Florida. And you know, just watching the conversations that are happening around the young man who, you know, chose to go to this campus and kill so many people and and the opportunity there to recognize that this is a human who is, I mean, I mean, I have to believe that he is in deep pain to be able to go and to inflict so much pain on others. And you know, that's not always the com, that's not the popular conversation. And so just as parents looking for opportunities, and like you said, it's not letting anyone off the hook, right? It's actually under the surface. It's offering these kids, you know, these mean girls in this, you know, in the context of what we're talking about, an opportunity to feel better, so that they can show up better for everyone, right? Yeah. So I really appreciate that. And I think that it's when I think about our culture, right? The reality TV, social media, culture that is the one that our kids are, you know, especially our children, the generation that's coming up right now. It is their normal. And you talk in the book about like, you know, being liked. It's not just I have friends, it's I have friends who, you know, like all my photos and mention me in in their Instagram bio and like, it's all of these things and then judging itself around that,

Katie Hurley 17:32
right? And that's, you know, one major shift in girlhood is just they're they're permeated with this idea of liking and being liked, and there's no relief from it. You know, 30 years ago, a kid was being targeted at school and having trouble fitting in, or trouble finding friends or whatever it was, at least they went home and they had a safe space and it was over for the day, and they could go home and be loved and be comforted. Now, everything goes with them, and even if they turn off their phones at night, they still know that it's happening behind their backs all night long, instead of just during the school day. So there's really no relief from the struggles that kids face now, because it's it's just this. It's like the 24 hour news cycle. It's a 24 hour, you know, like and dislike cycle and winning and losing cycle, and it's painful. It's painful. Girls tell me all the time they try to disconnect at night when they're not at school. They try to turn in their phones to their parents and just completely disconnect. But then they get so anxious, they're so worried about what's being said or what they're missing, or what will happen tomorrow if they're not engaged. All the time. I mean, keeping up these friendships that exist on social media is a full time job for girls right now. Oh yeah, exhausting.

Casey O'Roarty 18:48
Oh yeah, I got 115 year old. Hey, everybody just showing up to check in and invite you to pause for a moment, pause for a moment and consider what the content you are listening to is worth to you. Consider what kind of listener you are. You listen to the show every week. You're moved into action by what you hear. You find yourself saying, yes, someone gets me. I am so honored to create this podcast for you. I am also really thrilled to let you know that there is a way for you to be in support of its sustainability. You can become a joyful courage patron. Being a patron is giving back patrons pledge financial support that goes directly into the production of this podcast, you can pledge $1 $5 or $10 a month, whatever works for you, and know that it is a win, win. You exchanging energy with me and making a statement about what the podcast means to you. Can I. Get a big hell yes. Thank you to everyone who has already become a patron. Your support is so appreciated. Everyone else, don't wait. Head over to www.patreon.com/joyful courage and sign up to be a patron today. That's www dot, P, A, T, R, E, o, n.com/joyful, courage, all one word. Sign up today. So so appreciate you and all the ways you support the show. And now back to the interview. So we know all of this exists, right? We know all of this exists. So what are some, and you can talk about what you mentioned in the book, what are some kind of foundational pieces that parents can be thinking about putting into practice to support our girls who are living in this culture. Well,

Katie Hurley 20:55
I mean, one thing, I think, is that we really need to get back to the idea of helping our girls find their own strengths and their own passions and and just supporting them. You know, we're so quick to tell girls what they need to do to succeed in life. And you know, we they hear these mixed messages, because on one hand, it's, you know, the world is your oyster. Girls can do anything now. They can run for President of the United States, on the other hand, they're constantly being told, check off these boxes on your list, and you'll get there. You know, you'll be successful if you just do all these things. And it's a mistake, because we're constantly forcing girls into things that they don't want to do, or they don't feel good doing, they don't feel like they're having fun. I mean, you know your daughter doing track and field, and having fun with friends is a good example. It was fun for a while with friends, but it's not something she's passionate about. So she doesn't really feel like she wants to do it again. She will probably find something else. She'll discover some other thing that she is passionate about and she likes doing. But we've we've become this society where we're so focused on a few things, you know, you have to have your sport, and then you have to have your thing that fulfills the arts requirement. And then you have to check off your community service. You know, we go through these mental checklists all the time, and we force them on our girls. And you know, if you step back and you let them think about what they're passionate about, and you know what they like, and I'm staring at a copy of Patricia Worcester's ignite your spark. Book that she had sent me a while ago that's meant for teens and helping them figure out what is their spark. We're so concerned that kids, the girls, won't find their thing that separates them from the rest and defines them. So we constantly we put them in the things, we put them in soccer, and we put them in the art program that everyone's doing, instead of letting them do something different and just figure something else out. So that damages their self esteem, because when we constantly figure everything out for them and sign them up on their behalf, without talking to them about things and tell them that they just need to do A, B, C and D, the message they're hearing is you're not doing it right? You don't have good instincts. I have better instincts. So I'll figure it out for you. And that's a mistake, because, you know, one problem we're seeing all over the country is these kids, these high achievers. They're going off to Harvard and Yale, they're dropping out a couple months later, they're totally stressed out. They don't know what they want to be. They don't know who they are. They have no idea they get out in the world and they don't know how to function, because the parents did it all for them from childhood on up, and so, you know, that's a disservice to our girls, and it also just causes these very conflicted feelings and emotions. And when they get stressed, they tell me all the time when they're feeling stressed and they're feeling upset, they take it out on their friends because they don't know what else to do. They don't have the skills. So, you know, one thing is building their self confidence and letting them make choices in life and letting them figure out what makes them tick. And then, you know, on the flip side of that is they have to be we have to load them with coping skills, because life is hard. Social media is terrible, and also they love it, so they've got to learn how to cope with it. Yeah, going to walk. And it doesn't matter how many times you tell them to they're not going to leave, they're not going to walk away. You can take it away all you want. They're going to find their way back to it. So instead of taking it away and saying, this is terrible, it's hurting your self esteem, you know, teach them some coping skills. Teach them how to be kindness warriors. Teach them how to engage in a positive way on social media, so that other girls start to follow suit and say, hey, yeah, this is better than, you know, making mean comments all the time. Look at how great it is when people leave positive comments, you know. So we just we have to really give girls those skills, and we have to really be open and honest with them about girlhood and the things they're facing. You know, it's it's hard to be a kid. I mean, you, you talked about the school, the latest school shooting every day. You know, every kid today is going back to school, and they're going to hear stories, and some of it's going to be true, and some of it's not going to be true. And people are going to say. Things like, he had mental problems, and, you know, they're going to use words that are not correct terms, right? And what happens to girls all the time when they start to hear things like that, is they don't want to say things like, Well, I do, I have anxiety. Because if you have anxiety, you have mental problems, and you're one of them. You know, we do this thing where we use incorrect terminology and we blame certain factors, but our what we forget about is that our kids are saturated with it. When they get back to school, they're going to see those videos. They're going to hear those videos of the gunshots. They're going to hear kids judging other kids and saying things about other kids and who would be the shooter in our school. All these conversations are going to take place today, and our girls are going to come home compromised and upset, and we have to get in there and be compassionate and be empathic and support them. Instead of trying to just walk away from it, we have to actually be open and honest and talk about all these things and say what terminology is incorrect, and say it's okay to have anxiety, it's okay to have depression. I'll get you help if you're feeling those things. You know we have to really be more honest with our girls, I think, today, than ever before, because they're privy to so much of what happens in the world.

Casey O'Roarty 26:22
I'm so glad to have you on the show today. Katie, this is so important for all of us to hear myself included when you talk about the checklist, right? And, and, and I want listeners to remember that we're all coming from a place of love. We want what's best for our girls. We want them to feel accomplished. We want them to live full, creative, happy lives. And I think sometimes that quest that we are on for that to create that for them, we don't always realize that it's actually does more harm than good. And when I think about like I wrote down as you were talking about the checklist, you know, I'm thinking about, I, you know, in a couple years, my daughter's going to be applying for college, and it is crazy competitive, and she's not looking to go to Harvard or Yale. I mean, I always tell her, you know, you can dream the biggest dream that you have, and you know, and there are ways of keeping doors open. And there's a lot of colleges, right, right? A college education is yours to have, yes. And at the same time, there's this piece of like, the checklist, like, okay, sport, okay, community service, okay, this, okay, that, okay. Did she have a job that also exists. And it's, again, it's like that sport thing, it's like it's already there, like, I feel like we're coming up into it. And so to count. And then it's that, that conversation of, okay, yes, I want her to find what she loves. And there's this and I and it's so interesting, because this has been a theme for the last, I don't know, six months in conversations on the show around trusting them enough, right, trusting them enough to step back, trusting that they're going to be just fine, right, trusting that They will find what they love, right? Trusting that they can build their self as they can experience self esteem through the relationships and through the experiences that they are creating. And they don't need us to build this entire structure around them so that somehow we're giving that to them,

Katie Hurley 28:37
right? And I, you know, I think we also need to highlight that parents feel the pressure to do these check lists, yes, you know, from a variety of sources, right? I mean, it starts coming home from the schools, it's it's coming from everywhere. So, you know, yes, we're doing it out of the goodness of our hearts, because we're trying to make sure they have every opportunity that they deserve, because we love them so much we know how great they are. One day they have to somehow show that to colleges, but we already know it so, you know, but we're also just the pressure is real and the pressure is there. I mean, I ran into a friend in the grocery store that I hadn't seen in a very long time, and she was asking me about my daughter, who's 11, you know, so she's only in fifth grade, but, oh, does she still play this sport? Does she does? Oh, she does a little bit of that, you know. She does lacrosse in the spring, she does her dance, and then she sails in the summer. And she looked at me with like the sad look, and said, Oh, don't worry, someday she'll find her thing. And I kind of almost laughed, and when I walked away, I thought, oh, that poor mom. She feels the pressure to have the, you know, she's got the kid who does the year round Club Sport, which is fine if that's if that's what fits her family, and that's what they think is working. But for me, you know, knowing the statistics, knowing that 70% of kids drop out of youth sports by age 13 because they're burnt out, I'm going in a different direction. You know, I live in this world of research. Statistics and anxiety disorders that I treat. So I do tend to approach things a little bit differently and let my kids kind of drive their own train in terms of sports and extracurricular things, but, but that's very real. I walked away from that interaction thinking that's what most people feel. They feel like At age 11, their kid has to have a well defined thing that they're great at and that they're going to do for the next, you know, however many years. And that's sad, because that puts our girls in a box. You know, I wrote a whole chapter in this book about labels and the disservice we do to our girls when we label them and we put them on a pedestal and we stick them in a box and say, this is their thing. They're the soccer player. You know, she's the soccer player, she's the artist, she's the musician. You know, it limits them. And why would we want to limit them when they're young? You know, adults feel that all the time. We're tired of being limited. We wish we could have three different careers. You know, we have different interests even as adults, but we can't, because we have to go to work and we have to provide for our families and we have to raise our families. So, you know, it's like we always feel like that ship has sailed. But for kids, they have opportunities. They should be able to try on all these different identities and try out all these different things and see what feels good to them and what makes them feel confident and happy, you know, it's talk to, you know? It's like, if you talk to professional chefs, they'll tell you, I've been cooking since I was two years old. I didn't want to play any sports. All I wanted to do was cook with my mom, you know, you'll, you hear these stories. I mean, I'm married to a musician. He quit sports at age 11 to protect his fingers because he knew he was going to be a bass player at age 11, you know. And so there's all these different if you talk to enough people with different kinds of jobs, you'll hear that those were kids who were encouraged to do different things. And it's all right, okay, you want to quit Little League. I'm disappointed. I wanted to coach you, but it's all right. I'll buy you a base, and let's see where this goes, you know, but we're too fearful to do that anymore, because of the checklists and because we're getting the pressure to do the checklist. So, you know, it's complicated, but I think we have to owe it to our girls to stop labeling them and let them grow into themselves, and, you know, to stand back and to trust them. And sometimes they need a push. You know, teenagers especially, it's, you know, their frontal lobes are not fully developed. They're not supposed to be doing everything exactly right all the time. So sometimes they need a little push. But instead of saying, you know, I signed you up to work at the soup kitchen the next seven Saturdays, so that we can check that off your list, sitting down with them and saying, hey, you know, it would be great to do more community service as a family. What's something you're interested in? Is there some part of our community or our city that you just feel compelled to help? Is there something that you feel like you really want to do? You know, I have a niece who just turned 14, and she got involved with this program that puts together backpacks of art supplies for foster kids, and she loves it. And every chance she gets, she's there putting the backpacks together with the people who run this nonprofit. And she just, she feels strongly about it. She wants all kids to have access to art supplies. She loves doing it. She loves making the deliveries. She it's just that's her thing, and she just found it on her own. It was, you know, she just figured out that's something she wanted to do. So giving girls the opportunity to think about how they want to be helpers out in the world, they will make good decisions. It's just, we don't, we don't ask. We tell,

Casey O'Roarty 33:34
yes, oh gosh, I tell, I'm working on it is my daughter is my teacher, and she is teaching me how to let go of my inner self, inner control person, and that's why I surrender and trust and all of that. I'm really, you know, I thought I had a handle on it, and then she started high school, and I realized, Oh, I actually have a lot more growing to do in this area. So thank you, my sweet little teacher.

Katie Hurley 34:05
By the time grown, I think we'll have it all figured out, is what I predict, all figured

Casey O'Roarty 34:09
out, and then they'll have their kids, and we can bestow all of our knowledge on them again. Then

Katie Hurley 34:15
we're just in training for later. Oh

Casey O'Roarty 34:18
man. Well, I so appreciate all of this. Katie, and I love your book, and I think it's such an easy read, and so many parts of your book is so easy to put into practice in real life with our girls. So thank you so much for that. Do you have any final words of wisdom for our listeners about raising girls?

Katie Hurley 34:39
Well, one thing I've been talking about a lot is that, and it kind of ties into courage and being courageous, is that I would really love if we could raise a generation of girls who are willing to take healthy risks and fail out loud, because we have so many girls that are afraid to fail, there's. So afraid to come up short that they limit to them themselves, to what they know they can do well, so that they earn achievements and praise and all sorts of good stuff. But I really spend a lot of time trying to help girls learn that the more we fail, and the more we fail, out loud and acknowledge it and accept it and talk about it with other people, the more we grow as humans. I

Casey O'Roarty 35:21
love that that is wisdom for all of us, right? That's wisdom for all of us. So thank you for that. And well, this will type, I think that you just answered my next question, which is, what does joyful courage mean to you? And I think that that exactly, well, I'm not going to answer the question for you, but I'm sure that that ties into your, you know, how you would define that? Yeah,

Katie Hurley 35:44
right. To me, it just means taking, you know, taking being joyful about taking great leaps and it's okay wherever you land. You know, know that you're okay wherever you land, and you can always make adjustments and give it another shot.

Casey O'Roarty 35:59
Awesome. Well, I have to tell a quick story before we get off, because our family went to one of those. I fly places where you can feel like you're skydiving, and it was so exciting. And there it's like a just for listeners, visualize like this huge glass plexiglass tube, right? You put on the gear, and there's just crazy air coming up from, well, I don't know, up from a below, there's probably air coming down. I don't know what the science behind it is, but you go in and there's someone in there and helping you, you know, find your balance in this air. And it apparently feels like skydiving, and we went as a family for my son's birthday, and the and people who are waiting their turn are sitting outside of the Plexiglas. And by the time we got there and kind of watched for a little while, my daughter turned to me and said, I don't want to do it. And it was because of the audience and feeling foolish and being watched. And it just, you know, I tried every angle to encourage her, and in the end, I just said, Okay, and so she got to watch. She was our videographer for all of us, but it just broke my heart. And so I really, really appreciate what you're saying about encouraging them to fail out loud and to be able to laugh at themselves, right,

Katie Hurley 37:13
right? I mean, yeah, come on, people,

Casey O'Roarty 37:17
laugh at yourselves a little bit more. I

Katie Hurley 37:19
know I always say to parents, laugh at yourselves more and tell your failure stories more, because we all fail big ways, small ways. You know, sometimes daily, we feel like we fail. Just share those stories, because we've got to normalize it. We have to stop this cult of perfectionism among our girls, and the best way to do that is to really open up to them and tell them what we go through? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 37:41
definitely. Please remind the listeners where they can find you and follow your work.

Katie Hurley 37:46
They can follow my work on my website, practicalcatie.com I also write for The Washington Post and US News and World Report and PBS and other great places. And they can find me on Facebook, at Katie Hurley, LCSW, and Twitter and Instagram,

Casey O'Roarty 38:02
awesome. I will make sure all of those links are in the show notes. Katie, thank you so much for coming back to the podcast.

Katie Hurley 38:08
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure,

Casey O'Roarty 38:14
joyful purge community. You're amazing. Big. Thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris man at pod shaper, be sure to join in the discussion. Over at the live in love with joyful courage group page as well as the joyful courage business page on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, or really, anywhere you find your favorite podcasts, you can view the current joyful courage swag over at the web page, intention cards, bracelets. E course offers the membership program, one on one coaching. It's all waiting for you to take a look. Simply head to www dot joyful courage.com/yes. That's joyful courage.com/y. E, S, to find more support for your conscious parenting journey. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent to [email protected] I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way. Reach out, take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay.

See more