Eps 143: Mary Nelsen-Tamborski Talks About Making Mistakes and Being Raised with PD

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

I really think it’s about accepting yourself as being an imperfect parent, that there’s no such thing as a perfect parent. You would think I would have an amazing advantage being raised by the author, being trained and being a therapist. Like, I really should have this parenting gig down and there’s a helpful reminder with my children daily that there is no such thing as a perfect parent and just having, like you had said in the beginning, progress.

Progress, not perfection and just really kind of being gentle with yourself that when you do blow it, because you will, having the courage to accept it, admit it, and then repair it and know that this courage stuff is never ending. We get opportunities to practice it daily and you can have joy in that when you accept, when you shift your thinking, as in, “Oh my gosh, I was imperfect, ha! I have an opportunity to teach my child that they get to be imperfect too and that we are in this journey together, this is the first time that I’ve been a mom of a 9 year or a 5 year old or an 11 year old, this my first time. I can read all the books in the world, I can even be raised by the author and guess what? It’s still my first time.” So, I’m doing the best I can and the courage to accept that I’m not perfect and we get to be joyful while we go through that process.

 

Resources

Jane Nelsen’s book Serenity

Where to find Mary:
Website

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Hey everybody, welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place for information and inspiration on the conscious parenting journey. Conversations you'll hear on this show are all intended to offer you tools for moving forward, expanding your lens and shifting your narrative to one of possibility, connection and empowerment. When we bring deep, listening, acceptance and courage to our relationships, we are doing our part to evoke it in the world. I am thrilled to partner with you on this path. Hi listeners. I am so excited to introduce you to today's guest, Mary Nelson tamforsky, wife and mother of three boys. She's a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in San Diego and also a certified positive discipline trainer and parent coach. Mary's formal training is secondary to the life training she received from her mother, Dr Jane Nelson, a marriage and family therapist and author of all the positive discipline books. So you all have heard me talk about Jane Nelson. We have Mary, her daughter on today. She is a popular keynote speaker, a positive discipline trainer, workshop presenter, offers many positive discipline parenting classes local to her area and out of the country, which I hope you tell us a little bit more of that. And from the earliest time she can remember, her mother and her father had involved her in respectful communication, encouragement and focusing on solutions. I'm so, so excited to have you on the show. Mary, welcome to the podcast.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 1:35
Hi, Casey. I'm so happy to be here. Please

Casey O'Roarty 1:38
let the listeners know a little bit more about you and what you do.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 1:41
Well, you know, it's funny when, as soon as you said, being raised with, you know, encouraging, respectful, open communication with my parents, I never really even appreciated it until I became a parent myself. It was, you know, just something that was kind of by default, being raised with positive discipline and not really accepting or appreciating the benefits that go along with that. So, you know, here I am second generation, and I didn't know that I was going to get into this field until I became a mother myself. I was, you know, just finishing up my master's program to become a marriage and family therapist. I had a lot of the principles that I learned from my mother, obviously through her book serenity, which is about finding love and serenity in relationships and in life, and I realized how much of that came naturally to me. And then when I became a mother, I realized how much of the positive discipline came natural to me, but then I would find myself stuck, and of course, who am I going to call and so she would really kind of help narrow out the principles and the tools that I needed to use, and then obviously be my own little therapist. But I never really appreciated it until I became a mother, and then I also realized that as good as it all sounds in theory, I my hat goes off to every mother that and father that research this and and do the work and read the books, and they're excited and they think that they've got these principles down, and then they get the opportunity to really practice these tools with their kids, and they realize it's not as easy as the book lays it out to be. So I am raising my kids second generation, and with all of that has come the inspiration, and then, of course, all the experience of practicing what I know, what I teach and really reminding me that there's no such thing as a perfect parent, I find that these principles are universal. So they are great, obviously, for parents and children, but it's also just human beings in general. So I find a lot of the principles behind positive discipline are true to the adults that I work with in therapy. You know, feeling disconnected, not feeling that sense of belonging and significance, and feeling really discouraged. And so here I am using these tools, these principles, with adults as well as children, and then, of course, trying to practice them daily myself, which isn't easy,

Casey O'Roarty 3:55
yeah? Well, and I love it. It's usually around the third week of the seven week positive discipline class, where the parents come in and say, I'm practicing this with my partner and my work colleagues, and I say, Yeah, you know, it's, it's humaning, right, even bigger than parenting. And when we consider that, the lens that we see our kids out of is, you know, everyone being equally worthy of dignity and respect, it's no wonder that how we treat our kids, you know, it should be a mirror of how we treat our friends and how we treat our coworkers and the checkers at the grocery store, and it's about, you know, human to human relationship. So I really appreciate that you mentioned that. So, yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to me, right? Because I feel like so many of us bump up against our own conditioning, and the idea that like positive discipline is a theory, and it is beautifully laid out, I really appreciate the structure and the way that it's laid out, and then you put the human beings inside of it, and it can get really messy, and it makes me feel really good that it gets messy for you. Do too, all

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 5:01
the time, all the time, which is going to lead us into, hopefully, what we'll talk more about today, of of having that reflection and really modeling for our kids and the ownership of the mistakes that they make and the mistakes that we make and and what we really want to teach them long term. Like, what is our real goal? Yeah, when raising our children, and the hardest part is putting that ego aside and owning our stuff. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 5:25
man, for sure, yeah, one of the pillars of the positive discipline philosophy is the belief that mistakes are wonderful opportunities to learn. And I feel like this pillar along with we often will say, trust the process, and we'll say progress, not perfection, are all easier to conceptualize than they are to practice. Will you talk a little bit about what you know that mistakes or opportunities to learn pillar means to you?

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 5:55
And again, Casey, it's one of those principles that I was almost because it was just part of the language when I was growing up, I didn't realize until I was older, even in college, and then becoming a therapist and working with adults, and then as well, in schools with children and asking them, What do mistakes mean to you? Like, how do you perceive mistakes? What do you think about mistakes? And with the children that I work with, they kind of like shut down. Their posture changes, and they look down at the ground and and then when I'm able to kind of draw forth, they say, well, mistakes are bad. I say, oh gosh. And even adults that are just so full of shame from the mistakes that they make, rather than really, truly seeing it as an opportunity. And I didn't realize that this is the way I was raised with mistakes or opportunities to learn is not the principle or the foundation of how most people think, and it can it can just invite so much shame and so much pain and guilt and remorse and all of that. But when you're able to shift your thinking and saying, Okay, I made a mistake, what did I learn from it? What can I do differently next time? Is there anything I can do to fix it, and anything I can do to avoid it from happening again? These are questions that we have to obviously ask ourselves when we make mistakes as adults, because we all do, especially in parenting, but then to really drop forth from our kids when they do that. So when our you know, and my kids, I'm realizing it now too Casey, because I've got a five year old, a nine year old and 11 year old, and so here, all these little seeds have been planted since, you know, they're just beginning to talk, to talk, and it's in their language, as far as what's the opportunity? You know, are we focusing on blame, or are we focusing on solutions? These are the, you know, the language that I've been speaking to them. And then when he my oldest turns 11, and he says, Mom, they're so worried about and he puts up air quotes consequences rather than what's what's the solution. They didn't even say solution. He's backed by that. He's like they're all about blaming and finding out whose fault it is. And so I realized that now his expectations are, wait a minute, why are we focusing on Blaine? We're supposed to be focusing on solutions. And I'm like, he gets it. And I see in the family, and honestly, fault is the F word in our family, so they have learned to say, you know, it doesn't matter whose fault it is. How do we fix it? So if anything happens, I say, what's the solution? And there's no shame involved in that. And what a gift that you're giving your kids to take everything from spilt milk to a full on, you know, wrestling match upstairs to where somebody gets hurt, and then obviously having that time to connect and be calm and in that rational brain, but then focusing on, okay, how do we fix it? How do we avoid it from happening again? Do we need to put it on the agenda? What's the solution? And really drawing forth from them? And that's two minor examples. I could go into deeper examples, more detailed examples, but really just focusing on that. These are opportunities to learn, and it's not just a saying,

Casey O'Roarty 8:58
Yeah, well, and I wonder too. So my question back to you with that is, I would love to know what your experience is, because I think that, and you can tell me from your you know, the work that you've done, I think often what parents bump up against on their quest to see the opportunity is the emotional attachment to they that they have to whatever the mistake is that their child has made. So some mistakes, you know, they're not all weighed the same, right? And so sometimes it's feelings of like, I'm they parents themselves are dealing with feelings of embarrassment and shame because of their child's mistake, or just, you know, I know one thing that's really tough for me is when one of my children hurts the other child. I was a really terrible oldest sibling, and Mary, I know that you fall farther down in birth order. I was a nightmare for my siblings, and so I'm really sensitive, especially when the older is an. Kind to the younger and so that stirs up all my stuff. So do you have, like, what? How do you help yourself when? Because I'm, you know, you are, even though being raised by Jane Nelson, you still are a human being. So I'm guessing that there is, you know, emotional stuff that can show up sometimes when your kids get into mischief. What is it? What does it feel like to you? What is kind of your practice of, okay, there that is. And now shifting into, how are we going to fix this? What's the solution?

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 10:30
Well, I think what you said about the parenting and the embarrassment is, you know, and it's so tricky, because when we, when we get stuck in our in our head, which is the logical, you know, shame and mostly our ego, and that our children are a reflection of us. That's what we you know, in our head, logically, we're thinking, rather than speaking from our heart and thinking, Okay, our child's growing. This is the first time that they've been nine, or the first time they've been 11, and these are brand new, you know, territories for them or situations for them that they need to navigate through, and the fact that they didn't say it perfectly, or how we would say it, or do it, how we would do it. It's it really, truly is our chance to kind of teach them. It's a good teachable moment. And when I make mistakes, which I do. And like you said, Casey, the biggest button pusher for me. My mom can tell you, I feel like all the principles and tools are out the door, and it's when I see, you know, the red and go primal is what it feels like when my kids fight. I almost just don't even want to see it, because I know that they can work it out and they'll there's never any bloodshed or brain bones. Think this, but if I can just stay out of it, then, you know, a lot of the decision making and the beliefs that they're forming with mom not getting involved are much healthier. Yeah, and I don't want to be a referee, and we could do a whole podcast on, let's do that birth order and sibling rivalry, and how much you get involved, and the results of that when we do, but when I lose it, and I do, I have to obviously pause and you take that moment of reflection. It's usually the guilt that takes over. Guilt that takes over first, and then I go back in and I repair it, and I have to own it. And when I do that, it takes a lot of courage, I think, to be vulnerable and honest with yourself and with your child and say, you know, mommy really blew it. I got so mad when I saw the two of you fighting and I saw you getting hurt. I know it could have been avoided, and this is what you're thinking. You don't say too much of that, and just say, I'm really, really sorry for how I behaved. I want to make it better. Is there anything that we can do to avoid it from happening again and and then really drawing forth from them, like, how did that make you feel when you did that? What could I have done differently in that situation that would have helped you, and obviously the hugging it out and the connection and putting it on the agenda, because so many of these challenges are avoidable. And when we're having regular family meetings, the fighting, I can't even say it practically, it just does, it stops, and it's on the agenda often, because I have three boys, and so I think a lot of what they do is very normal, but when they get into the problem solving and focusing on solutions, then there's not usually the aftermath of the hurt feelings and the shame involved in my in my place of where I or how I responded to it. So it's it's hard, but you have to also think about too, what you're teaching them long term. And when I had a girlfriend, a really good girlfriend of mine, who I grew up with, and our boys are the same age, and she said, Mary, you say you're sorry to your kids. And I said, probably every day. And she says, but isn't that like a reflection of you being a bad parent? She is, teaching them that it's okay to be imperfect and that it's okay to say you're sorry, and not just that blanket apology that we're taught at. You know, age two of you took the shovel out of the sandbox, go tell that boy you're sorry. He doesn't even mean it, right? So we're kind of conditioned to say we're sorry, and then it's supposed to make everything better. But when you go a lot deeper, what are we teaching for me, my young boys as men, as far as ownership of their mistakes, you know, how they contributed to the whatever it is that happened situation, and then how do we fix it? The outcome is what it is now, what?

Casey O'Roarty 14:18
Yeah, how

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 14:19
do we fix it, and so I can't reverse time, unfortunately, rewind time for how I behaved in certain situations, but I definitely know that I can repair it and learn from it and teach them all while I'm being imperfect of how they can then respond when they're imperfect.

Casey O'Roarty 14:35
Yeah, well, and the listeners have heard me talk about the activity that we do in class, the two lists, and when we talk about the life skills we want our kids to one day embody responsibility, accountability always shows up, and this is how they do it. It has no model that has to be taught and it has to be practiced in real life experiences. And so that's Yeah, and that's what I often will say to parents, too. And they, you know, like, Okay, you have, like, 30 seconds to go into beat up mode, and then look at this as a celebration, because you get to model this really important tool that your kids are only going to learn by seeing you do it and then practicing it themselves. In

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 15:16
fact, it's funny that you talk about modeling Casey, because this is really coming up for me right now, and we just created a new activity that's going to be like the third list of the life skills and characteristics that you want your children to develop. And then the modeling we're going to have parents drop forth, as far as on a list, what are some of the characteristics that you hope to model for your children? Like, what do you want them to see and learn from you and all of those things that you just said are going to be on there, but it's only when we're in that state of vulnerability or challenge that we really get the opportunity to show them how to behave or how to repair when we have bad behavior. And know that, you know, when we lose it, okay? It affects everyone, and it's part of human beings, yeah, and we need to figure out what we can do after we lose it, so that it can be fixed, so that it can hopefully be avoided in the future.

Casey O'Roarty 16:14
Yeah, I I have a blog post around one really quality losing it time that I had one of many, but I wrote about this one. And you know, the interesting thing for me, it was, it was, it was a while ago where I think Rowan was 10, and I completely had not a great parenting moment. And when I went in for the amends Mary, I it was one of the I haven't she's not super affectionate, and she let me lay down and like spoon her and hold her, and I, you know, made my amends, and I felt actually closer to her through that process than I had prior to the incident even happening. It was really, really powerful.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 17:02
And that seems to be the kind of the philosophy in my life, you know, for a lot of different things, it's when we usually blow it and have like that really kind of upsetting moment, whether it be, you know, something that we failed at, whether it be a test, or, you know, driving too fast and getting a ticket, or it still it's room for growth. And it's room for that, that deeper connection, whether it's with yourself or with your child. And you know, I agree with that. It's, it's, you know, we see it with our spouses. Sometimes we have to have like that, you know, kind of fight, if you will, or, you know, total communication breakdown for you to have that, you know, one on one hour of of closeness and communicating and connecting and right, yeah, because it and then you're like, Oh my gosh. It's like, I almost feel closer to you now, after we've had that fight, because we were able to talk about all those different things that were kind of bottled up or built up or unset unspoken, and it ends up making you closer. Absolutely true, something

Casey O'Roarty 18:03
that's been that I've become more aware of the last few months with my teenager, is that's exactly what will happen, and I can feel the pull away and the tension, and then exactly some incident occurs. And it's almost as if the metaphorical wall that she's built gets like, cracks open so that she can then step back into relationship with me. And it's and when I can remember, like, Oh, this is just where we are right now in this little cycle, and I can remember like, okay, eventually we're gonna have that crack in the wall I'm that helps me navigate all my shit that shows up in the meantime, so that I can be conscious and available and aware that that you know, that I can be there for her. So you gotta break down to break through, right?

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 19:01
I love that. I love that. And it's so true. It's so true, you know. And then again, what you're modeling for her is huge, so that she knows that she can come to you in a time and if she just needs to spoon you and just kind of wrap her arms around you, and to know that you're not going to push her away, and you're going to accept her, and that you're going to talk it out and create that closeness. Oh, man,

Casey O'Roarty 19:22
parenting is no joke.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 19:25
I know it. I know it. And you know, one of my favorite quotes from my mom is, you know, where in the world we expect our children to control their behavior? Yeah, like we're losing control of our own, yeah, it's like, stop being so disrespectful. And yet you're the one that's being disrespectful to kind of invite that response from them. And that's something I've learned with my children, and have then, of course, been able to use it in therapy with my clients, is that if you were to imagine that you're wearing a mirror around your neck like a huge mirror, and the responses that you are getting from other. People are usually the reflection that you're sending out. So when you smile, you get a smile back. When you throw in a little tone in your in whatever it is, you're going to tone back, and then it kind of sets us back into that ego state of, don't talk to me that way, young lady, how dare you for you? After all I've done for you, how do you think that you can be so disrespectful and create that sass. I'm just trying to help you. Oh yeah. And then you have the 11 year old that's been raised with positive discipline and says, Mom, the only reason I'm taking the tone is because you're giving me the tone, oh yeah. And then when, like, the hand goes in the mouth, the fist goes in the mouth, you're absolutely right. But it takes again for a parent to be able to, like, let that go as far as it's not your child being sassy. These are the tools that you're teaching them, and you know, this is the language that you're teaching them. And so for you to be able to be called out on that, whoa, yeah, that's where you have to really step outside of that ego. And it's not easy. And I remember recently, I was, you know, my big thing is that we need to take time to pause and to connect before we correct right. And half of that with my children is just simply calming down myself. So if I see something, you know, that's triggering me, I have to literally, like, just go in the bathroom for five minutes. And I'll say it, because I want to teach them. I say, Mommy is so upset I can't even talk right now. Mommy's so upset I don't want to solve the situation right now. I need to go take five minutes and calm down, you know? And with that tone, so I come back and my five year old, or my 11 year old, says, Mom, you might want five more minutes.

Unknown Speaker 21:40
Yeah,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 21:41
I could have, because I obviously still had a tone. I could have said, you know, don't talk to me that way. You're the reason I'm feeling this way. To

Casey O'Roarty 21:50
go, take five minutes,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 21:52
but to say, you know, it's usually just a look, and

he's absolutely right. And so I'll go, take five more minutes because I'm clearly not calm, but then later, after, you know, we're able to connect. Usually at bedtime, I'll say, you know, buddy, I really appreciated that, yeah, and at the moment, I felt even a little bit triggered, but I really, like you, helped me so much to be able to understand that I clearly was not ready to solve that situation or to try to connect. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 22:21
it's amazing, you know? So one of the things that I do is I try to ask permission. I'm I'm full of shoulds. I know what everyone should ultimately do, and my job is to, like, rein that in and recognize, oh, I'm not the only person on the planet. And other people have opinions as well. So I will say, can I offer something? And the kids think it's hilarious, and I'll say support. I use the word support, like, do you need support? And so they've they have a good time teasing me about, Oh, do you need support? But Ian, recently, I, you know, clutter. I've inherited some trigger slash dysregulation around clutter that I work on all the time. And so walking into my son's room at bedtime, when all the drawers are open, I don't know why. Like, why is it so hard to just close the drawers? All the drawers are open, you know, things are strewn about. And I just, it's a physical experience. And I, you know, and I have to walk out, and Ian came in recently, followed me out and said, Mom, can I offer you something? And I just in my mind, I was like, I knew what he was gonna say, and I had to find that humility, right, and say yes. And he said, you know, you need to really remember that this is, you know that you've told me that this is my room and and it's really hard when you have a bad mood and you kind of drag us all into it,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 23:52
like you for that. Thank

Casey O'Roarty 23:53
you for that. Excuse me for a few moments.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 23:58
I'm gonna go process that. But ultimately,

Casey O'Roarty 24:01
I mean, it's always difficult to be called out on your stuff, right, and and we, and it's such a gift to, you know, to teach our children to see those opportunities and to help us learn and grow as well.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 24:16
I think, right, absolutely.

Casey O'Roarty 24:22
Hey, everybody, oh my gosh. I am so excited that I get to serve you each week in all the ways that I do. I know that joyful courage is meant to make an impact on the world. I know this 100% without a doubt. I also know that the show does that I get emails and messages and cards in the mail, even from parents all over the world that have found that what is shared on the show is changing the way they parent their kids. It's changing the way they are experiencing the parenting journey, and I am super honored to be stepping. Get into the bigger call to do this. You know that I'm a positive discipline trainer, I'm a personal growth development coach and facilitator. I'm a speaker, a mover and a shaker, but what I have always been is a connector. I connect with people. I support people with connecting to themselves and their families. I have a gift for allowing others to feel seen and heard and understood. And I am a relationship builder on fire. I hold space for communities of moms and dads to come together and vulnerably share. I do my own vulnerable sharing. Here. I hold space for them to support and celebrate each other and the collective journey of parenting. I am super honored to do this work. I'm honored to be in contribution. I'm honored to have a voice and a platform that move moves others, to do the deep work of moving past the bullshit and into their deepest authenticity. So that being said, I want you to know that I have a new way for you to be in contribution to the work of joyful courage. I have ecourses and coaching, and there's different ways and offers like that that you can invest in this work. But I also have a Patreon page, and Patreon is a service that allows people to be in contribution towards the resources that they love. You can become a patron of joyful courage. And the really neat thing is it's pretty small increments. It's a monthly subscription. So for $1 a month, or $5 a month or $10 a month, you can be giving back to this program. You can be giving back to joyful courage. So I want you to head over to www dot Patreon, P, A T r, e o n.com/joyful, courage, w, w, w, dot P, a t r e o n.com/joyful, courage. And when you get there, you can see the different ways that you can be in contribution to the work of joyful courage. For as little as the cost of one latte a month, you can be helping with the sustainability of this business, of this podcast, and of the work of bringing more love and more connection to the children and the families of the world. So go check it out. Do you have any questions? Let me know. I'm so so so excited. So shifting from mistakes should be punished to mistakes being opportunities to learn. What do you think gets in the way of people embracing that

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 27:42
I, you know, I think that consequences are very much in the language of most people that I meet, you know, in the schools and even in your in your job or your career, yeah. And we both know that consequences are described disguised as punishment, and so most parents really struggle with, you know, when my child did this, there needs to be a consequence. And so I think just shifting the language of, okay, what is the actual like? The outcome obviously isn't what you were hoping for or what you expected or anticipated, and we need to shift the vocabulary, the language, as in, instead of there being any kind of shame or blame, how do we fix it? How do we fix it? What did you learn from it? And I just, I can't express that enough that I think parents really, you know, they think that the choices that their kids make are a reflection on them when they forget that it's just actually part of learning and growing. Yeah, and I mean, we all wish that we were fortunate enough to have our kids learn from our mistakes or listen to our words of wisdom, so that they could avoid all of that disappointment and all of that struggle. But that's part of their development, and it's the more struggle they go through, the more like challenges that they experience, the more resilience they're going to experience and develop. So it's really hard for parents to step in and think that they need to pay for it, and when they do, you're taking away from the learning. As soon as there ends up being any kind of shame or blame, as in, you need to pay for what you've done. And it's usually not with the three R's and then H, which we know well, which is related, reasonable, respectful and helpful. It's not all three R's, and those that 1h then it goes into the three R's of punishment, which is going to be the child feeling rebellious or revengeful or retreating and feeling bad about themselves. And there's no learning. There's no growing so on paper, a lot of the times, you know, and I've even had this discussion with my husband, he said, but there's consequences in life. It's just how, the way, you know, the world works, if you speed, you're going to get a ticket, and that's your consequence. And I'm not going to have a discussion with, you know, the highway patrolman and saying, you know, this was a really. Great and helpful reminder that I need to slow down and that I need to leave, you know, leave the house sooner, and I need to be more prepared, and so on and so forth. So there are going to be consequences, but I'm going to have my own reflection. If that that officer isn't chewing me out and saying, What were you thinking? How could you be so irresponsible? You're a mother, you have three kids in the car. You're going to put their life in jeopardy and all for the cost of you being somewhere on time. How could you be so selfish? I wouldn't feel remorseful at all. Listen here, officer, you don't know what I'm going through. Yeah, I would immediately offensive. And so I think that when we do that with our kids, when we feel like we have to implement these consequences, when we have to implement the learning rather than really drawing forth and asking all those questions, the curiosity questions of, okay, wow, that was huge. Tell me what happened. What caused that to happen? How do you feel about it? What are you going to learn from this? What are you going to do differently so that it doesn't happen again? And is there anything I can do to help you or support you? And it doesn't have to be so, because parents get a little overwhelmed by all those questions. Are like, Wait, slow down. I need to write them down. No, no, it sounds like a script. And if you, if you use those questions like a script, your kids are going to smell that script and come across as a technique, and they smell a technique a mile away. It's got to be the principles behind those questions of truly being curious, of where that child was coming from, and then drawing forth and understanding what it is that they were learning, how they feel about it, what they can do to fix it. And then that's when you can have your later reflection, because they're not going to appreciate it at this age. Wow, what did I just teach my child with all those questions and all that learning and letting them really, truly experiencing that, you know, the mistake and all that was involved in that mistake, versus saying you did this, you know better. I told you this is going to happen. How are you ever going to learn? I'm going to have to ground you, because maybe you'll think about it more next time. No, because kids are doing something, they're not thinking. Usually, most adults aren't even thinking about the outcome, what the results going to be. They're just in the moment. They're being five, they're being nine, they're being 11. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 32:17
think that we do a lot of assuming, like on the parent end. I mean, the assumption, especially around consequences, is, if I do enough to them because of this choice that they made, the next time they are in that situation, they're going to make a different choice, because they'll remember, Oh, I don't want to get into trouble. And the assumption there is that they have the tools and the skills to navigate that situation in a way that takes them to a different outcome, and they just they, they don't, if they, if they haven't, you know, if they haven't had the experience, if they haven't had a really open, honest, non judgmental conversation, If they haven't, you know, had the that curiosity, those curiosity questions to help them even know how to reflect on what they've just experienced then, then there they are in the moment. And, you know, and when we talked before I hit record, I have an adolescent and, you know, it's not enough for me to say, hey, I don't want you to do this. Don't do this. It's bad for your health. Like, right? She is finding herself in peer groups, and she's, you know, caught up in the excitement, and she's got a teen brain that is, like, probably not gonna get in trouble for this. So, you know, I'm gonna dabble a little bit, and it's messy, right? And it's messy, and part of me is like, I was saying to you, Mary, like, where's the tower? I get it. Let's put all of them up in the tower until 25 when their brains fully developed. You know, ultimately, she's she's navigating her world, and because she can come to me and talk to me, and I don't typically fly off the handle, even though inside my body I might be wanting to fly off the handle. I'm available, I'm non judgmental, and I'm curious, and not just I love that you said that it's not about the script, it's about and this is exactly what showed up at the dinner table last night when we were talking about vaping. I it like, there's the questions that clearly are, I'm digging for information, and then there's like, really feeling the shift in my body of like, wow, I really want to know, like, what the draw is? Like, what is it that's exciting about this to you? And not so and she, because she, well, both my kids, they can feel like this is a setup, like the kids know when something, yeah, they're so smart and and like, and if we have some history around being judgmental, you know, then, then that's even gonna get in our way as well of having these conversations. So I really. Love that you brought up curiosity as a way of being, and not just simply in the you know, oh, just start the sentence with what or how, and you're golden. It's deeper than that, and it's bigger than that. And it again, coming back to ego. It requires us to shed our agenda and shed, I mean, unless our agenda is simply curiosity. But you know, if it's to trap them into saying something that we can then counter, then it's, it's going to fall flat and it's not going to be helpful and trusting the process, right? That's where, oh my gosh, I thought I got it. I thought I got it. And then high school rolled around and I was like, Oh, this is not what I thought,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 35:44
you know. And it always takes me back to Casey. Is that what it is that we want them to learn long term? And sometimes I almost wish I could have that, that long term list, like, right to the right of their head, so that when I'm coming at them with what feels so, you know, logical at the time, and then to ask myself, okay, everything that we just had a discussion about, and if it's usually, you know, if we were going more of that punitive consequence route, and saying, This is how you're going to learn, like, hopefully not for me, but for other parents that you know really have still kind of gotten stuck on you need to pay for your consequences. This is how you're going to learn it. Then you'll think about it more clearly next time. So let's just say that was, you know, the theory, and that's outcome. I was punished. I turned out fine, and I responsible contributing society and member to society, okay, but when you go a lot deeper, as in, okay, what was it that you were learning?

So for example, I don't know if you want to use, like a vaping example or something more general of of a mistake that would be made and the consequences that would go along with that. So

Casey O'Roarty 37:02
let's, let's talk about vaping, please. Okay, I'm gonna use this to my own advantage. Okay,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 37:06
so if you're if the challenges that your child is that your daughter is tempted to follow peer pressure and to vape or try it, and because

Casey O'Roarty 37:17
like, So, according to her, like 75% of all the kids that are school are vaping. Okay, so it's not a big deal

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 37:24
and that, and I could see how that would be really scary for parents, because they're going to go through, I always love your dead in the ditch, like total extreme, you know, and and are is she going to become addicted, or is she going to, is this how she's going to cook through life? And Is this her just being insecure and trying to follow along with a group or the friends and all these different questions that are coming up. And so we want to try to avoid, you know, the scary outcome. So if not you or me, but we were to say, Okay, you are not allowed to hang out with those friends anymore. I'm taking away your allowance. You have no money or means to buy anything. I'm gonna, you know, check in with you daily. I'm going to put, you know, a nanny cam in your backpack. I'm going to catch you, and then I'm going to, I'm going to control the situation by either grounding you until you graduate, or, you know, putting such a tight, tight leash on you that you will not be able to get away with this, right? There's

Casey O'Roarty 38:16
this, yeah,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 38:17
I don't agree with it, and I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure you don't do it right, right? Let's just say yeah. Looking at that list, what

Casey O'Roarty 38:26
is she learning? Yeah, no, life skills, nothing. She's not learning anything. Actually, she's probably learning what I learned as a teenager, which was, don't tell my parents anything and get better at getting Sneaky, sneaky. Oh yeah, I never really mastered it, but I did give it a good old try time and time again. But

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 38:49
that's where your focus was right. Focus was on not getting caught, right, and you were gonna do it anyway. Yeah. And so why not be able to build that relationship and that connection and truly drawing forth. And it takes me back to the example of when I wanted to get drunk with my friends in high school, and my mom probably, like, you was, you know, like feeling paralyzed, like, oh, you know, like the

Casey O'Roarty 39:13
worst, I hope that she was kind of freaking out. I'm going to ask her about that the next day.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 39:20
But, you know, she was fresh with her tool belt on and was ready to practice what she preached, and she she really did model those curiosity questions, and the outcome was that I had decided that I didn't want to do it. And had she been more controlling or more punitive of like, okay, well, now that you've been honest, I appreciate your honesty. That means a lot to me. Blah, blah, blah, and you're not gonna be able to go tonight, right? Because I don't want you to be in harm's to be in harm's way. I don't want you hanging out with that group of friends. I don't want you, you know, having that reputation, you're guilty by association. What if one of them gets caught? What if you get in trouble? Just going on and on, of all the different things that could have happened, right? But instead, by just really being curious and with that connection, all. Obviously, because had she been scripted, I would have known and it wouldn't have been genuine. But it the outcome was it just, oh, it is such a blessing to have a parent that just truly loves you and supports you and can guide you through all of these hurdles that are going to come our way, and we don't know vaping wasn't even on the map. Oh, no, five years ago, yeah, so we could have predicted this. And I don't know what's going to be on the map for my, you know, soon to be high schooler, yeah, and how I'll handle it, because the ego will get involved, but I know that the connection that we're creating now in middle school is crucial. Yeah, it is. It is crucial. And so we haven't come up with anything as big as vaping, but there has been lots of others, yeah. And so he knows when he's 1617, that he can't talk to me, yeah? And I'm not shame him, I'm not going to criticize him, I'm not going to punish him, but we're going to, we're going to kind of go through this together, and he's going to trust me, yeah, he's going to that I've got his back,

Casey O'Roarty 41:01
and, you know, I think, yeah, that's so big. And that's something that I learned from Amy Lang, the birds and bees and kids, gal who's been on the show and is a dear friend of mine. Love her. She's all about your kids will come to you as long as they know that you can handle it. And so it's we said it's this blessing and curse, right? I mean, and I actually, and I think I've said this last fall on the show, you know, I pulled out my positive discipline for teenagers book, which I read before I had a teenager. Why? I do not know, because it's not the same as actually having one. And read the section that said, are kids who are raised with positive discipline. Do they rebel? And so I think it's important to highlight, like, great curiosity that your mom had with you. The curiosity and the availability that I have to my daughter doesn't necessarily mean that they're not going to say, okay, okay, well, I'm still going to play with this. I'm still gonna try this like it can go, you know, we hope for the outcome to be like, All right, you know what? I do feel pretty solid in who I am, and I don't need to do that. And sometimes that's not the case, but either way, relationship is intact, and they'll come hopefully and say, gosh, you know what, I did end up wanting to I did end up drinking at that party, and it made me, you know, and whatever it made them feel, do say the door is open to even processing that. And I think that that's super powerful too, and that's, that's what we're talking about, right? Mistakes, making opportunities to learn and trusting that that's going to be more powerful to them than, you know, the lockdown,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 42:42
the lockdown, or the lectures, because what we want to do is to help them avoid those. But I don't think there's as much of a learning there. So let's say it was the embarrassment, like, say that number one mom just doesn't want you to do anything that's going to embarrass you. Well, sometimes experiencing that embarrassment is where I really would learn. Wow. And then I'll say, you told me so. And she'll try not to, like, be like, you're right. I

Casey O'Roarty 43:04
did tell you try not to have a dance party. When you hear that from your children people, it'll kill the moment.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 43:11
The Learning had to come from within, yeah, as much as you wanted to just kind of, you know stuff, it in and have them avoid that situation, it's like, Ah, I'm 43 and I'm still learning, if only I would have listened to my mom, right? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 43:27
well, and I think there's this way that we again, that we get in our own way when we feel like our kids shouldn't make any mistakes, like, you know, you know, and again, everybody knows I'm in the throes of adolescence, so it comes down to, you know, the peer pressure stuff. And like to expect that my kids will make it through middle school and high school without doing any kind of, you know, engaging in nothing risky like that. Would that would be great. I mean, I'm not saying, like, I'm not open to that, because I am. How are you? Yeah,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 44:07
it's beneficial for you, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 44:09
but it's not, it's it's in it's an inappropriate

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 44:12
expectation, and there's not as much learning, and there's

Casey O'Roarty 44:15
not as much learning, and then, so don't be surprised when they are, like, in their brain development, which, by the way, the risk taking part of the brain grows and develops way faster and is way stronger than risk assessment in adolescence. Well, which is a good thing, because, like, I have heard Dan Siegel say, we never would have left the cave otherwise. So, right? But you know, I think that that's a big piece too, you know, like and that's what we're talking about, celebrating those mistakes, looking at them as opportunities to learn and grow skills and as opportunities to see where your kids gaps are,

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 44:53
right? Absolutely. You know, one of the things I wanted to add, because it's it just keeps coming. Back for me, whether it be in my classes or with clients, is because they're really struggling with this again, because of, you know, our children are a reflection of our parents, our parenting skills, or whatever it may be, a reflection of us. And so I say, Okay, same situation, because they may not be getting it. And I'll say, all right, your best friend comes to you, and your best friend just fully discloses, you know, how she messed up. How do you respond? And you can just see the shift. It's like, ah, the light bulb just goes off. It's like, oh my god, I would never shame them. I would never say, Well, what were you thinking, and why didn't you listen to me? And when are you ever going to learn they would say, I would never speak to my best friend that way. And there's this kind of controversy of like, you're not supposed to treat your friends or your children like your friends. But what is it that you want to create with your child as far as that closeness and that trust? Yeah, and you want your friends to know that they can come to you and that you're going to love them unconditionally, and you're going to be there to support them, and you're going to be there to help pick them up when they fall. Yeah, you're not going to, you know, kick them when they're down and put salt in their wounds and come up with a consequence for them so that they truly learn that lesson. No way. We would never even think about doing that. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 46:12
oh, man, I feel like that's a whole nother podcast, that whole be their parent, not their friend conversation. But yeah, you're right. You're right. And I think that that, you know, I mean, look at Brene Brown's work. There's a reason why everybody loves Brene Brown. It's because so many of us are slogging through the shame, blame, you know, the stuff that we carry because of early experiences in our life.

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 46:38
And the thing is too Casey that I really want to make sure that I point out, because this is something that we both and all know undeniable is that we all love our children, and everything we do is in the name of love. And when parents are even punishing their kids or making them pay for their mistakes, their intention is to teach their child. Their intention is to help them. That really, truly is, their intention is to is to help them, right? Yeah, yeah. When we get stuck in that way of thinking of that, the punishment is going to really be helpful. That's where it gets sticky. Yeah. And so knowing that, even if you are you know, stuck in in the consequences, or stuck in the in the making of them pay for their their mistake, I truly know 100% that it's in the name of love. And I know that you can enjoy your parenting journey so much more when you can create that closeness, create that trust, create that support, and for them to really know that they can come to you yeah, and that you can learn through that you know, all of these situations, all of these challenges together, that you've got their back. Yes, it feels so much better it

does, which I want to say, you know, Maya

Angelou, she says that when you know better, you do better. I think that with being raised by positive discipline and now teaching it, I have to disagree. I truly feel that the more I know, the worse I feel

pressure, right?

Casey O'Roarty 48:20
Well, there I have a lot that's it. That is something that I talk a lot about, too with, with clients and in my classes, it's like, okay, it like, there's a awareness is a double edged sword. Yes, right? However, something that I will say is like, and how great that you are aware that what you just did wasn't helpful. Like that is that's your stepping stone. You know, that's a stepping stone, even if it's even if you haven't caught yourself, even if it's after the fact. And you look back and you think, oh my gosh, I totally could have handled that better. Great, awesome. Guess what? The opportunities to handle yourself better are going to be endless. So

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 48:59
get an opportunity as soon as soon as you get home. Yeah, exactly,

Casey O'Roarty 49:01
exactly. So, Mary, I could, I'm looking at the time right now, and I can't believe I mean, I could talk to you for another hour, but I feel the same way. So my last question always my last question is in the context of holding mistakes as opportunities to learn. What does joyful courage mean to you?

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 49:19
I think I love that question, and I hear you say it all the time, or ask it all the time, and in this conversation, I really think it's about accepting yourself as being an imperfect parent, that there's no such thing as a perfect parent. And you know, you would think that I would have a major advantage being raised by the author, being trained in and being a therapist like I really should have this parenting gig down, a helpful reminder with my children daily that there is no such thing as a perfect parent. And just having like you had said in the beginning, Progress. Progress. Not perfection, and just really kind of being gentle with yourself that when you do blow it, because you will having the courage to accept it, admit it, and then repair it, and know that this courage stuff is never ending. It's we get opportunities to practice it daily. Yeah, and you can have joy in that when you accept when you when you shift your thinking, as in, oh my gosh, I was imperfect. I have an opportunity to teach my child that they get to be imperfect too, and that we're, you know, in this journey together. This is the first time I've been a mom of a nine year old or a five year old or an 11 year old. This is my first is I could read all the books in the world. I could even be raised by the author. And guess what? It's still my first time. So I'm doing the best I can and the courage to accept that I'm not perfect, and we get to be joyful while we go through that process.

Casey O'Roarty 50:55
So great. Thank you so much for that. Remind listeners where they can find you and follow your work. My

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 51:03
website is marytamborski.com and you'll see a couple of the news segments I did where my boys were very happy and enthusiastic to be on the news. And I talk about routine charts and family meetings. And we've got, I've got blogs on there, and my schedule that's really crazy busy right now. Do you travel? I

Casey O'Roarty 51:27
know you've been to China, and you're going, Are you going to Egypt?

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 51:30
I am, and I'm taking my 11 year old son. So this is going to be the best trip as far as the opportunity and the connection with him. You know, the mom guilt comes in every time I leave. But then, as you know, this work is so rewarding. So it's again, it's kind of double edged, because I'm traveling and teaching what we're talking about, and yet I'm away from my kids when I do it. So this Egypt trip will be a lot of fun, because it's one presentation for three hours, and we're going to do the whole tour down the Nile for five days before

Casey O'Roarty 52:07
that's so cool, awesome. Well, Mary, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. I really appreciate it. It

Mary Nelsen-Tamborski 52:15
was my pleasure. Casey,

Casey O'Roarty 52:21
joyful courage community, you're amazing. Big. Thanks and love to my team, including my producer, Chris Mann at pod shaper. Be sure to join in the discussion over at the live in love with joyful courage group page, as well as the joyful courage business page on Facebook and Instagram. Subscribe to the show through Apple podcasts, or really, anywhere you find your favorite podcast, you can view the current joyful courage swag over at the webpage, intention, cards, bracelets. Ecourse offers the membership program, one on one coaching. It's all waiting for you to take a look. Simply head to www dot joyful courage.com/yes. That's joyful courage.com/y. E s to find more support for your conscious parenting journey. Any comments or feedback about this show or any others can be sent to Casey at joyful courage.com. I personally read and respond to all the emails that come my way. Reach out, take a breath, drop into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay.

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