Emily Roberts Digs Into Teaching our Daughters About Being Assertive

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
This is the joyful courage parenting podcast episode 14.

You Hey everybody, Casey here, so glad to be back on the podcast, and I just have to tell you a story. So prior to the last show, the last show was a solo show, I'm sure, I'm sure you all listen to it, right about my experience in New York at Grace for women. Before that episode, I interviewed Katie Hurley about temperaments. Remember, did you listen to that one? And her book, The happy kid handbook? We talked about raising introverted and extroverted kids and what shows up and how to meet them where they're at to support them in optimal growth. And funny thing, I also recently made a video for the live in love with joyful courage. Facebook group page, my community on Facebook, to help people to know that if they have an iPhone, if you have an iPhone, you have an app that came with your phone for podcasts, and it's purple and it's like a little microphone with little circles around it anyway. I was using my daughter's iPod to help me make the video. The How To video for subscribing to this podcast through iTunes, which you all should do. You should do that. It's a good thing. And and I subscribe. I subscribed her to this podcast. And so she said, Oh, I want to listen. And so she was listening into that interview, and I have to say, it felt pretty good. She was, she was pretty impressed. She was like, Wow, mom, this is pretty professional. But, you know, we had conversations because I told her about the conversation and that, you know, I was speaking about how she tends to lean towards introvert and that I'm extrovert and that sometimes I forget that she sees the world differently. And it was it just reminded me how cool it is to let our kids in on what it is we are working on as parents and on the parent journey, because we ended up having a really great conversation about that, and she ended up sharing some things with me that really gave me a broader perspective around her life outside of our house, you know. And I think I mentioned it on the podcast, maybe I didn't, but you know, she's whenever we talk about this introverted, extroverted thing, she's pretty quick to say, you know, mom, you'd be surprised if you saw me at school like I'm I'm pretty outgoing at school, and God, wouldn't I love to be a fly on the wall at the middle school? Yes, I would. But it just was a great reminder to me that, you know, there's opposite ends of the spectrum, right? There's introverted on one side, extroverted on the other side, but there is a lot of space between the two. And we just, we just had a really great conversation. And you know, I continuously on the podcast talk about being in relationship with our kids, and this is exactly what showed up as we had a conversation. It just started off as a conversation about my podcast, a conversation about my guest, what we talked about, and because I'm really working on that non attachment, non judgmental, compassionate way of being with her. The space was safe for her to really speak into her thoughts and opinions on the topic. And it was just, it was really glorious. And my guest today, funny enough, is Emily Roberts, and she's a licensed social worker, and she works with and therapist. She works with teens and young women, women, girls, mostly, and she wrote this book called express yourself, a teen girls guide to finding and using their voice. Oh, gosh, of course, I don't have the book in front of me right now, but it's right along those lines I talk about it in the interview. But she, you know, she has managed to get into the minds of teen girls and speak to them and encourage them in a way that is really. Valuable and really healthy and helpful for our girls, because, you know, I mean the drama of middle school and high school, you you hear it all the time. I mean, we went, I went to curriculum night last week, and my daughter's language arts teacher was talking about how it's really important to him to let the kids know that when they walk into his classroom, they can leave their masks at the door. And that's the language that he uses. He said, I tell them they leave their masks at the door in this room, I want them to be all of themselves. And, you know, I think as adults, it's really easy to say that, right? Oh, just be yourself, and everybody will like you and you know, and they hear those words, but then they find themselves in middle school, in high school, in their social groups, in their peer groups, filled with all sorts of weird, conflicting, contradictory emotions and thoughts. And it's really scary to be themselves. It's really vulnerable to speak their mind. And what Emily has created is this amazing book that really helps girls with language and tools for designing their life, for being in the driver's seat, or, as she calls it, the director's chair of their own life. And you know, Rowan, my daughter, is willing right now to let me read to her, so we're actually reading the book together now. Granted, I have to really check myself, because I want her to say, Yeah, Mom, this book's amazing. I'm gonna practice all this stuff. Thank you so much. I'm so excited for when we get to read more, you know. And that's not what's happening. I'm kind of inviting myself into her room before bedtime, when she's kind of getting ready for the next day. She's, you know, kind of puddling around and doing her thing. And I just say, Hey, do you think that I can read to you? Do you think that I can share this book with you, and she's, you know, kind of begrudgingly letting me, but I know that a lot of what is coming out is landing with her, and she's internalizing it, and we'll just continue to have that conversation. And again, back to building relationships. So I am so, so honored and blessed and excited that I get to interview Emily about her work and interview her about how this book came about, and if you have a daughter, even if she's a baby, get this book. Get this book. Read this book. Get prepared, because eventually your little girl is going to evolve into an adolescent, into a teen, and it's just great conversations to be having with them, so that they can continue to be the ones that are calling their the shots in their life. So yes, yes, yes, yes. Let's get on to the interview with Emily. Thank you so much for listening. I so appreciate every single one of you and your feedback and your willingness to let me know how the podcast is landing for you, stay tuned till the very end, because I'm going to let you know of some new ways that you can be following and staying in touch with me. All right, let's

talk to Emily. You

all right, so here I am with Emily Roberts on the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here.

Emily Roberts 8:32
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 8:36
Yeah, well, I am reading express yourself your book with my girl, and I just am loving every little bit about it. So I want to know more about you and how you got into the work that you're doing, and how you know teen girls so well.

Emily Roberts 8:54
That is a long answer. I will start from the beginning. How about that? No, perfect. When I was around 13, I moved my parents moved me across the country, and so I'm a therapist now, and that's because of my experience when I was younger. I really believe that that's kind of what pushed me into this field. And when I was moving across the country, was a little, uh, trying, especially for a 13 year old girl, and I met some new friends, but it was really hard to fit in. And I it was just clicky, you know, I mean, the stuff that all teenage girls face and boys, it's just a little bit differently with it feels differently for girls. Anyways. So what I wound up doing is my parents thought I was depressed because I was really depressed from leaving all my good friends and and moving to the middle of Texas from Seattle, the lovely state that your city that you're close to, huh? Yeah, wow, that's a big shift, yeah, to back before Austin was cool. Austin's very cool now, but before it was cool, it was like, a bunch of like, you know, cowboys and, well, long dirt roads. I'll give it to you. You know that I couldn't go ride my bike anywhere because I went up in a field. I'm being completely honest. Yes. So we were looking for a therapist, and I went to all these people that were so old. No offense to old therapists, but they were and so at a but it wasn't even old, it was they were out of touch with what teens were doing. I felt very judged. They weren't listening to me. They were judging me. My parents found it difficult too, because, you know, I wasn't getting help, therefore they weren't getting help. It was getting things, making things at home a little bit challenging. And so finally, in college, really, in college, I found somebody that I liked, and I thought, wow, I liked her because she talked to me, casual. She talked to me, she listened to me, she didn't judge me. She kind of opened up a little bit to me. And I was like, I want to be like her. She helped me a lot. And so that's kind of how I got into this work. I realized, if I was feeling that way and I wasn't experiencing half the stuff that is, you know, the girls of today are, might as well do something to help them and do so while I can still be relatable,

Casey O'Roarty 10:56
yeah, so, and that's the thing this book, it's so speaks to the girls. I'm reading it out loud to my daughter, who's almost 13, and just the language that you use, I mean, it's complete with hashtags, but there's so many nuggets of wisdom. And I'm just wondering who tell me about where all of this information came from. Where did you pull all of this information from?

Emily Roberts 11:26
From the girls, from the girls I work with. Gosh, how many kids do I have? I have like 25 kids right now, not at home, but in my office. Therefore, you know, not parenting them. But I have a lot of teens and young adults that I work with, and kiddos and a lot of parents as well. So I've been running groups for girls for years now, small groups on self esteem, body image, bigger groups on media and technology. I've worked with 1000s of girls, and it's been the constant questions, the constant struggles that I had, even when I was growing up, are in this book, because everyone's facing the same kind of experiences. We just don't know have the words or have the skills necessary to handle them, especially as a teenage girl. And I think a lot of parents who are reading this book too are noticing that, oh yeah, things have changed. My skills, maybe as a parent, are awesome, and I still need to recognize a little bit more what my daughter's going through. This is what your kids are going through, because the girls I work with have edited it with me. I had lots of kids looking at it with me. I didn't want to I, you know, I had to be. I had to give them the tools, because if they weren't going to read it, how am I getting anyone else to read it right? And so also, I wanted to honor them and honor what they're going through. So some of their stories are in here. And many girls have looked at this book before it even went into printing.

Casey O'Roarty 12:41
Nice well. And, you know, I think that what I'm coming to recognize is how often I want to say things like, I know what you're going through, or I've been there, and I have to ever more vigilantly remember that I did have, I did have an experience of being 12 almost 13. I did have a middle school experience. I did have relationships, and I was in a very different family structure. I was in a, you know, it was the 1980s

Emily Roberts 13:15
I love what you just said. You said and, and I think that is the key word. The reason why I say that, and sorry to interrupt you, because a lot of parents don't say that keyword and is such an important one, but is very invalidating, or saying, I've been there. I've done that. We all do. I can say that too. Sometimes I'll catch myself being like, Oh, I've been in your shoes. And then I'll stop and say, Wait a second. I will actually say this out loud in a session or in a group. Actually, I haven't been in your shoes. I was experienced kind of like that, but I'm not you, and times are different. So please tell me more about your experience, and I will apologize. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:46
and I love Tell me more. Tell me more about that. And I and what I'm what I'm getting out of your book, and it's so funny. It's written for teens, but it's written for all of us, and what I'm getting out of it is, I know what I want. I know the general idea of what I want to share with my daughter around certain situations, but what express yourself offers is specific language for her to hold onto and to use if she so chooses to navigate, you know, the very collective I mean, there's the individual experience, but ultimately, this whole tween, teen thing is a really collective experience. They all feel insecure. They all are trying to show up a certain way. They all want to, not all, but, you know, the vast majority, yeah, they want to fit in. They want to feel comfortable, even as they are so uncomfortable. Well, I

Emily Roberts 14:42
always ask you, go, what do you So, what do you want to fit into? Yeah, and it's an interesting question. You know, I might get a little snarky remark here or there, but no really, like, what is it? What's your ideal that you want to fit into? I'm having trouble understanding, or I know what it was like when I was your age, but tell me what you're trying to fit into now. And so. Such an interesting question to ask these girls, because even as adults, if we say, what are we trying to fit into, to parents or to our colleagues or our friends, it's an interesting question because I don't know that any of us really know we have ideas and we have, you know, groups that we're involved in. But what are we what are we trying to change or evolve into?

Casey O'Roarty 15:19
Yeah,

Emily Roberts 15:19
girls don't often know that answer, and they may actually get a really good, you know, a good moment with you when you ask it, yeah, for

Casey O'Roarty 15:26
sure. And who you want to Who do you want to be? You know? I mean, even as a I don't think I asked, truly asked myself that until I became a mom, you know, like, how do I want to show up? I

uh, and I write a lot about this when I do blog posts, and it's, you know, if I haven't explored the qualities that I want to bring to every moment and every interaction, if I don't know that, then you know, that's not helpful. When you know I am bottom line. I'm gonna get eye rolls, I'm gonna get doors closing, I'm gonna get withdraw from the daughter and the Son, and it's part of the experience. And those things don't need to trigger me into like, ugly, reactive, crazy person, but it requires that I've decided, you know, that I've defined who it is that I want to show up even in those really challenging moments, and who

Emily Roberts 16:27
you want to be around. I mean, you know, when it comes to friendships and things like, I had a one of my friends read the book, and she's 42 and she said, Oh my gosh, this applies to a friendship situation I had this year. And, you know, let's be honest, this book is, is really meant for everybody. We have to pick a target market when we're writing a book, unfortunately because, you know, and so I wish I and unfortunately because this one was really geared towards girls and girls of today. The last copy that I was able to edit was probably two months before printing, and so maybe three months. So this is still within 2015 and so, you know, a couple of my clients were generous enough to lend their time, and a few, because there was others who had the first round of this were involved in it as well. But I have groups of girls that I teach these skills to. You know, interpersonal effectiveness skills is what I call them. And part of that entire piece within the group is teaching mindfulness and teaching what your goals are for communication. Because I don't remember anyone really asking me growing up, what was your goal for saying that? What were you trying to

Casey O'Roarty 17:32
get ever like adult life? Yeah,

Emily Roberts 17:36
and that's, that's what drives the behavior, right? Or that's the communication. If I get in the same argument, in the same fight with my parents over something different, but it's the same fight, I got to stop and be like, what is the common denominator him here? I might want to blame them, or I might want to blame myself, but the truth is, it's got to be the way that both of us are reacting. And if one person can change that, whether it be mom and dad, mom or dad or yourself, yeah, it can be so empowering. Oh my gosh, having these girls come back and be like, Okay, I tried this, and it worked. I can't believe it worked. You were right. I mean, that's the best, that's the best feeling, in a way, because it worked. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 18:11
you have a whole section that's how to get your parents to say yes.

Emily Roberts 18:15
And interesting at work, when you think about it, with colleagues too. Oh, for sure,

Casey O'Roarty 18:19
for sure, and, you know, and it's just all forwarding, right? It's all this, this whole idea of forwarding. And you have a great metaphor throughout the book, which is this whole you're the director of your own movie metaphor. So talk to me a little bit about what that means to you and how you use it with the girls that you work with.

Emily Roberts 18:38
Well, I kept having this, you know, back when Gossip Girl existed, we would have lots of girl I don't think it's, I mean, it still exists somewhere, but it was a big thing a couple years ago, and girls would always relate to the show. And I was like, Okay, I don't want to write a gossip girly kind of book here, right? I want it to relate to girls who don't watch that show, for girls and people who play sports. But the reason I put the director, and what you were talking about, for people who don't know, is that the theme is being the director of your own life, and so each chapter has a different set of challenges, or people that can come into your life that are indicative of a movie you set right, like the producers are the parents, your cast and your crew, your PR team, which is your digital Self. So unless you have a PR team, but I don't know very many teams that do have, I would love a PR team too, usually, but and so it's all about how each of these things can challenge you and also work for you when you're developing a movie or being the director of a movie, and why it's really important to choose the people in your life carefully. And a lot of kids like the theme of movies and TV shows because it's relatable. And also, you know, who doesn't want to be the Director of their own life at some points, we do want our parents definitely being the director. Sometimes, I still do, and I'm an adult because I, quite frankly, don't want to open up the mail on some days. But there becomes a time you. Around the time of that your daughter, your daughter's 1213, where they're starting to kind of straddle that I want to be an adult, slash, I want to be a little girl still. And I always tell parents, teenage years are very reminiscent of toddler years. We have to use those same behavioral principles, right? I mean, and you might get the same mood swings as you received before, too. You just communicate a little bit better now. So that being said, I really wanted it to be more of a book about girls feeling confident, you know, making the rules in their life and making the rules with other people's input, also feeling confident speaking up for themselves so they don't let people into their lives or affect them in the way that we know Mean Girls and Mean people can and this is just a theme. I didn't say that so eloquently, but this is just a theme that I see across every age. It's not just 13 and four. This is eight year old, nine year old, 10 year old girls and 24 year old girls. You know, it's like, how do we get that? How do we attract these people into our lives? And what am I doing that's still creating this passive voice or this aggressive voice that I have instead of an assertive voice? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 21:07
it's a really great companion to, I don't know if you're I'm sure you're familiar with Rosalind Weisman and the queen bee and wannabes, right? Love her work too. Yep, yeah. And I feel like that other piece that is coming out of the pages as I read, is being assertive. And what does it mean to be assertive, especially where you see the memes and there's that conversation around bossy, yeah, right. And what it means to be, oh, well, she's just bossy, and helping our girls understand the difference, but also recognizing that bossy isn't like we were putting judgment on it. Bossy is just a word, right? Yep, but you talk about us being assertive, and it's such an important tool, and I think that you know the drama of middle school and high school and clicks and image, like you said, body image, all the stuff. Yeah, yeah,

Emily Roberts 22:07
that word too, yeah, blocks,

Casey O'Roarty 22:08
you know, and it and it. And when I think about being assertive, I think that it really requires our girls to expose themselves a little bit and be a little vulnerable, right, which is, you know, terrifying. I think they

Emily Roberts 22:22
said it girl, it's terrifying. What I feel like. The reason why I use the word assertiveness is because it is a word that a lot of us use, you know, maybe not me, excuse me, a lot of society uses, in a in a mean way, like to think of the Devil Wears Prada, and they're like, Oh, that. She was assertive, the devil, you know, that main character. And I used to run a group on assertiveness, actually, when I was working in an Eating Disorder Center years ago. And it was a great group, because the girls came in, and these are girls of all ages, even many in adulthood, who were like, I've never been able to speak up for myself ever. And I see that now with friends. I see that with colleagues. And so I was like, this word assertiveness doesn't because it's a bad rap, and it's actually a really great word, because what it actually requires, and anyone who's reading this, to do is, before you say a word, it's to tune in to how you're feeling and how that person is making you feel, and quite frankly, trying to think about in the past, when I've let someone treat me this way, how did I feel afterwards, when you're noticing how you feel, that gives you so much agency as a person, and so to be able to say, Wait a second, I know that if I tell my friend that I'm okay with eating Chinese food tonight and I really wanted pizza, I'm going to be the one that feels bad later on. I'm going to beat myself up later on, or I might get angry at her later on. Now that's a minor example, but how many girls do we know who can't do that depending on the situation? So what I try to get girls to see and adults to see too, is if you can speak up, even if it's just a little bit for yourself, people will respect you more. And in fact, how many? How true is that? Right? When people aren't guessing what you want to do, or I don't care when we know you really do, super annoying. Yeah, it's very annoying, and it allows the other person to see that you have an opinion which is very attracting attractive, and it's attracting to the right people, the people that are the mean girls, quote, unquote, or the people who are bossy or the people who aren't respecting of that. You know what? The sooner we figure out who they are, the better. It's hurtful. It's a lesson that is being learned who you don't want to be friends with, who you don't want to open up to or become vulnerable to, and the sooner we realize who those people are, the more, the better it is. You know, when I look back even to some of my friendships in college and realize there was people that I felt would take it, that were taking advantage of me, it's because I didn't have these skills, even as a college student, and the fact that I've been able to have young girls use these I mean, young is, like, eight or nine, really use these skills and say, you know, I was I stopped, and I thought about it for a second. And the reason she was being mean to me is because I didn't want to play with her at recess. I didn't say it meanly. I just said I wanted to play, you know, inside instead of outside today. And she was mean, it mean to me. That's because she doesn't really, I. Yeah. She doesn't really care what I think anyway. She just wants it her way. And I was like, yep, you're right, yep. And to be able to see Yeah, it's hurtful. And at the same time, we can work with the hurt, feelings of hurt. What's really challenging to do is work with the feelings of regret, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 25:12
well, and that's in and, you know, but being assertive also, you know, I think about, I don't know if we were talking about this before, after I hit record, but knowing what you want,

Emily Roberts 25:25
yeah. And so that's where, in each section the book to what I talk about. And this is really how I teach it. A lot with people, in individual work and in group work is okay. So what's the what do you want out of this communication? Or what's the point of this when you're when your daughter comes in and asks to go with to sleep over or something. She's not saying, let me go. Her goal, really, if we back up, you know, is, I really hope my parents let me to go. Won't let me go because I want to go to my friend's house and hang out my friends. That's the goal. But if she's like, you know, saying it like, I have to go, everyone else is going. That's maybe not the most effective way, right? And if we stop and pause for a second and recognize a, what we want and B, that there are skills to get me what I want, and skills that that work. Then by the time these kids hit college, or the people reading this, or, you know, some of my some of my favorite readers, are in college, really, I mean, they're like, oh, wow, I'm not afraid to talk to my teacher about ask for an extension, or I'm not afraid of asking friend if she can meet me at 1030 instead of 10 this morning because I overslept or I'm really tired, those are small snippets of how confident you can feel in communicating with other people, whereas if you don't say anything at all, or you're not clear on what you want, let's be honest, not all of us are clear, but we want something different. So if we can even pause and say, What do I want to feel before this or after this interaction, or during this interaction, but really, after this interaction. How do I want to feel? That's the goal. Love

Casey O'Roarty 26:47
that well. And I also, you know, I mean, we're talking about some pretty minor we can talk about situations, no, I just mean, like I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about this, and I'm thinking, gosh, you know, if our kids, our girls, our boys, get practice in things like, you know, get sending their food back at the restaurant because it's cold, or little things like that. And then when it comes time to say, You know what, I'm I'm going to choose to be the designated driver, or I'm going to choose to say no to whatever it is, you know, drugs, sex, rock and roll, right? Whatever it is that's rock and roll, rock No, say yes to rock and roll. Um, but whatever shirt I know, say yes to rock and roll, that that would be cute. We could brand that yes, make that, um, but, yeah, you know, I mean, the more opportunity they get to be assertive in these more minor playing fields, not that they're minor, because they are really powerful. But, you know, I just it's giving them practice so that when that big thing comes up,

Emily Roberts 27:55
well, we talk about a lot of the big things in this book. I haven't gotten there yet. Well, you well you did in chapter. In the chapter about friends in front of me is one of the things that I get so often. And I'm not sure if this is happening in your daughter's school, but it happens in many schools, even as young as fourth and fifth grade. What who do girls and boys go to when they're having a problem? Usually it's their friends, and so when girls, I'm using that term just because that's what the book's for. But anybody really when somebody's having a problem and it's like, I'm gonna hurt myself, or I'm really depressed, or I want so and so is bullying me, and your daughter is the one holding that secret, or your daughter is the one feeling that it's so challenging to help give them the tools to what to say, because they're so afraid of their friend getting hurt, or they're so afraid of telling an adult, and yet it really eats them up inside. So being able to be assertive in challenging situations like that, which are so common, unfortunately, because that's, I mean, who did I go to if I had a problem? My friends. I mean, your daughter and you have a great relationship, which I'm, I think, is awesome. I just didn't want to talk to my mom about that kind of stuff. So it was a boy thing I would get so mortified, I just went, I wouldn't talk about it. And of course, I'd call my friends and we'd have a three way phone call, because back in the day, that's what you did, you know. But it it, I wonder, even thinking about it now, how much of that was just scary, scary stuff for them, when it was like, Oh my God, this guy doesn't like me. I know what to do. And that wasn't, you know, I wasn't like a lot of the girls today, where it's like, oh, well, I'm gonna hurt myself, or I feel like killing myself. This happens often, and it's not because people are being dramatic, not at all. There's always a function to what people say. I think part of it is because we have this exposure to it in such a different way than we did five or 10 years ago, and because girls know what that means. It says they saying, I'm in pain, and this is how I feel. So for a set, your daughter's in seventh grade, for her to hear that and be like, Uh oh my gosh, how do I talk to my friend off the ledge? Let's give her some skills. I mean, that's in here, not to mention the stuff that maybe she you know. And I started seeing this sometimes in younger grades, but really, seventh and eighth grade, you. Not just in New York, I'm here now, but I also worked in Texas, and I still work in Texas, and when I've traveled for for doing these conferences and stuff, girls often say like, Well, my friends want to come over. They want me to sneak out. Or even if it's as minor, and I say minor in safety as giving a girl her homework or copying for a test or something like that. Those, those aren't as big safety issues. But let's be honest, there's way bigger safety issues and this bad. You know, it doesn't make them feel good. They feel guilty. These are situations where they feel pressured by their peers. Oh my gosh, if all of us, like took two seconds to look back how we gave in to peer pressure. I mean, I can honestly admit that I did, for sure. Oh

Casey O'Roarty 30:37
god, I was a total Yes girl. Okay, that was always my response, okay.

Emily Roberts 30:42
And then yeah, exactly like there was one time I vivid. I remember so well, because I didn't get in trouble, but the guilt stayed with me, probably until now. I mean, I've forgiven myself, but it was when I got in the car I knew I wasn't supposed to get in the car with somebody, especially a boy who my parents didn't know, who had just got their license, and we were driving, and it was like, the scariest thing, because they were going very, very fast, and my friend and I were in the car, and I kept thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna die. My parents are gonna know that I did everything they said not to do, and I'm gonna die in this car. Finally, when I got out, I was like, I'm never doing that again. But it was just being like I was so mad at myself, and that's what it was about, like I wasn't mad at them, I wasn't mad at my parents, I was mad at myself, and I didn't know what to do with those feelings. And so in the book, I give some skills for that as well. But the truth is, I don't want girls being mad at themselves for these experiences, right? You know? I want them to think about it before they they act on it, if they haven't already acted on it. There are skills in here to make it a lot better, and how to talk to adults in your life so you can get in the least amount of trouble, right? And learn from it. That's the best thing we can do if we make an I mean, thank goodness I learned from that experience. I really did. I don't think ever got I don't think I ever got in the car again with somebody that I didn't know. Well after that, it was just frightening. And so yes, this sounds like minor, but we were talking earlier, before we started the podcast, about what kids are doing online. For me, when I was in high school and middle, middle school that didn't even exist. It was like, dial up. I called my friends on the phone because I didn't even want to use the the AOL, I am, right? It took so long

Casey O'Roarty 32:10
you're younger than me. We didn't even have it in college.

Emily Roberts 32:13
Well, it was, it was pointless. I mean, in a way, because I was like, this is I was impatient. I was like, I have to talk to them about this, so I'm going to just pick up the phone and dial it, right? Yeah. And now we as adults can see too, how quickly do we type an email and not even read it before pressing send or text message. And so with kids, whose brains are developing rapidly and yet are more impulsive by nature than many adults I know well, that's, that's, that's a tricky and some adults, I know, and you give and they have more emotions, and you give them these devices. There are things that they do that they regret. So instead of using shame or guilt, like some of the books out there do, or fear, I give them options. I go, Look, here's the reality. If you're feeling bad about this, you can do this. If you need to make amends, you can do this. And if you're questioning if you want to press send, or if you want to, you know, engage. Say yes, be the Yes girl. Here are some other options to think about, just in case you face that situation. And all of these scenarios have happened to people I've worked with, or, I know, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 33:12
well, it's, it's funny, because I was just talking to Katie Hurley on the last episode about temperament and the introvert versus the extrovert. And I laugh because my daughter leans towards introverted. Although she's not like full she's definitely blossoming in her outgoingness. I, however, am like extreme extrovert, and maybe blossoming more and more as I get older, my own introverted self, but I always laugh and say, Geez, I could have used the caution that my daughter uses. You know, she thinks first. And I hope that again, I hope that this sticks. You know, she's She is super thoughtful. Where I you know, action, first thoughts later, well,

Emily Roberts 34:01
by reinforcing that now with her, like, oh my gosh, I'm so glad that you didn't text your friend right away. I'm so glad that you, you know, came in here and asked me about it. That's just showing how mature you are, yeah, or that's showing how thoughtful you are. Those are the phrases as you know I mean that really, actually do stick with them. Like, that was a great choice because of X, Y or Z makes such a big difference. Where are they? Where else are they getting reinforced? Right? Their friends who are like texting them 45 times in a row, and you know, they're they're feeling overwhelmed by that. The reason I bring that up is because we've got to, as adults and parents, teach our kids it's okay to take a break. It's okay to put the phone down for five minutes and think about what you want to say. And very few of us as adults are doing that right. And I, I've actually taken phones they, most of the girls, put their phones in my office near me. They have a plug on purpose right next to my my seat, because who doesn't always need a charge, and because it's so distracting. And so when, when they have quite. Question. Sometimes they'll say, Well, I just, you know, I've got to get my phone, because I need to ask you about how I should respond to this. And we talk about it because they're able now to see that if they were to respond right away, a people don't excuse me, respond. Respond right away. Wow. Respond right away. Then they may make a mistake, or they're keeping the person, you know, the person is taking advantage of their time, and that's the way that I look at it, too, is like the it's so awesome when you don't respond right away. It's so awesome when you don't give in, because people think you have life, even if you're looking at your

Casey O'Roarty 35:30
phone. Oh my gosh, that's brilliant, right? That's so brilliant. Yeah, because it's so funny. I mean, I love texting for sure. I'm a total texter. I think it's so helpful and efficient and quick and dirty, and I'm not, I don't typically get into conversations. Every once in a while, it'll happen, but mostly it's just, I gotta shoot a text to this person. Get this out there, whereas my 12 year old is like, hey, hey, how's it going? I

Emily Roberts 35:59
mean, good.

Casey O'Roarty 35:59
What are you doing? Nothing. Minutes

Emily Roberts 36:00
anymore or not the minutes, like, where every text, thank goodness you guys. There's these plans out there, because when we were growing, I mean, in college, it was like 150 or grad school, 150 texts for like, $25 or something. How

Casey O'Roarty 36:13
could Yeah? Well, yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, that would not get very far. But it's really interesting, because it's like, you know they're having conversations. I remember when we were first navigating the whole texting thing, and she didn't have a phone. She had, but she did have an iPad, and so and she realized she could get a texting app.

And and it was, and we made a whole agreement about it, and I was really rigid in the beginning of the conversation, and then it kind of dawned on me that she Yeah, that she wanted this, this, this, this amount of time, because she was going back and forth, just like when I was in sixth seventh grade, or that was fifth grade, and I would come home and I would I had my own phone line in my room, and I would be on the phone for hours.

Emily Roberts 37:10
Well, the difference between and you make a great point, there's two things. The difference between our phone lines and what they can do on a cell phone is way different. I mean, you know, this is a gateway drug in some regard, right? Because there's so many things they have access to that they never really and even if our, I've worked with some wonderful kiddos who their friends would say, hey, look this up, or go on this website, and all of a sudden it's, it's something they've never seen before, and now they have way more questions. And yeah, that we couldn't do that. We had to go to Encyclopedia Britannica, or try and get on, you know, AOL, crazy server

Casey O'Roarty 37:41
so or just read forever by Judy Blume.

Emily Roberts 37:44
Oh, well, I read that one. Did you anytime? Are you kidding me? I've read every single one of her books. That was like, that was my like face. That was

Casey O'Roarty 37:50
the big one. I was young when I read forever, and I was like, what I think going on? I gotta read this again. I marked pages 20

Emily Roberts 37:58
times. I still have it more than 20 times. There are like, yeah, folded pages, bookmarks, things like that.

Casey O'Roarty 38:04
Not the same, though not the same, as what our kids, right, stumble upon or, you know. And when I interviewed Amy Lang this last summer, the birds and bees and kids, Mama, she, you know, she, she says it's harder for kids to stay away from porn than it is to find it. You know, like, back in our day, it was like, Oh, how can we get our hands on that? Or maybe not. But for some people, it was, whereas developer was like, yeah, how can I avoid that? Like, they can't even, it's really difficult for them to avoid it.

Emily Roberts 38:36
Well, the other thing that you said, because that's, that's part of it, that's in the book too, about romantic pressure, but it's not even pressure. Part of that is peer pressure. And so there's a couple, there's a lot of the best thing about this book, I have to say, is that I wrote it with I wanted my girls I work with. I wanted to be able to give them the stuff that we talk about. And, you know, I could give them paperwork, I'd give them stuff like that, but I wanted to give them a guide, and I wrote this book so I could literally hand them the guide. And I was able to do that because that you can turn to any page and say, All right, what do I want to do? This or That? Or what did someone else do in this situation? What are my options here? It's not advice giving by any means. It's more like, let's figure out what you really want to do. And here are a few ideas on how to do this, the most successfully that's going to help your you know, your confidence and your decision making, and, quite frankly, your future. But we won't, you know, tell a teenager their future, because that's like tomorrow and teen world, however, really, I mean, their days, they're a little bit, you know, look, their brains are developing, right? We'll just yeah for sure. But the other thing is, for a lot of parents, and this is a challenge that parents don't remember, but you put, you know, hit the nail on the head when you were growing up, just like I was. Our friends would change plans, and we'd call each other up and we'd say, Oh, wait, we're going to so and so says after school. Or can your mom pick me up? Because my mom said at the last minute, I can't go over to so and so's house, whatever the case may be, kids change plans. Parents, we have to change plans half the time too, right? Like thing comes up or we forgot. Appointment, whatever the case may be. And when parents, when the kids, like Mom, I'm actually going to go to so and so self instead, they get especially if it's text, sometimes they get mad. Why didn't you know before? Why didn't you tell me before? And the truth is, because they didn't know, or because your child just hasn't learned yet how to kind of put that text first. It's not a deficiency. It's just the fact that these are learning. These are strategies and skills that they haven't learned yet. The other thing is texting and, you know, IMing and Facebook chatting, or Instagram, you know, communication, Snapchat, when you ask your kid if they talk to somebody, or when they spoke to them, or what the you know, if there was a conflict, what was going on? I'm going to be 90% I'm going to say about 9% of time that form of communication is not in person or on the phone, it's via text and communication. So when they say you don't get it, it's asking, Hey. So how'd this go down? Was it on the phone, or was it like, you know, via text, what you know, what you say? Do you want me to help you navigate a way to handle it, or you want to see you want to show me to me. Because the reason that gives you guys, parents, I'm talking to, more credibility, to be honest with you, and really into the kids world, is because that's how they're doing it. And it's actually fascinating, because people are so ill equipped to do this. I mean, the one thing I could get this every teenage girl's head, Do not text your feelings. Seriously. Please do not text how you're feeling about the other girl in the room, or the guy that you like or the teacher that you hate. Because people take pictures, people don't delete their text. And this is alive and well. It's not just like this. You know, urban legend that people are going to take pictures of their Snapchats. Oh, no, no. This is real. I see it all the time, you know. And so it's being able to be mindful about what you write before you say it. And if you're not sure, please pick up the phone, or at least FaceTime, or, you know, Skype video chat. I don't care, but right, don't write anything out there that you wouldn't want your mom, your grandma to see, or a potential person that you want to babysit for. These things happen, you know? And oh my gosh, when I told girls that Snapchat was not holding their stuff, you know, they it was like, yeah, just kidding. It's really like a place in Iowa. I don't know where it is, but a cloud where we can get your information. White faces across the room. I'm like, what have you guys been doing? You really thought that people were going to keep this stuff private, you know, and it's not even about like those what ifs, what are they really sending this to? If a parent picks up the phone and sees that a kid's, you know, sending them risky messages or really aggressive messages, they're going to see it, you know, it's embarrassing for the kid and for the parents whose kids have the phones. Yeah. I mean, I know it's

Casey O'Roarty 42:39
well, and I and it Yes, well, and also I have, I as a parent, am ever more aware of the fact that I want to roll my eyes, yeah. I want to be like, Oh, whatever. Are you kidding me? You know, that happened over text, like, you know, and put my judgment on something that is like, like, it or not here to stay a part of their life. And, you know, I just have to, and as soon as I'm rolling my eyes at her, like, that's the moment where the door closes

Emily Roberts 43:15
communication, and it's just, it drives disconnection. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 43:20
she just feels totally invalidated, invalidated Exactly. And then it becomes like, well, then clearly I can't trust you. Clearly I can't, you know, share.

Emily Roberts 43:29
We don't get it. Because you don't get it. Yeah, and you know what, the best way to kind of come back from it, from a hit like that, is, you're right, I don't get it. I am so sorry that I really being, being so hard for us to do, but I if I get something wrong, I've learned by being assertive if I mess up, the best thing to do for me anyways is be like, You know what? Whoa, I totally messed up there. The sooner I do it, the better your kids are not going to like, you know, hold that over your head for very long, because, let's be honest, the attention span isn't that long. And you know, it's like, your goal here is to get in the door as quickly as possible and say, like, Look, I'm not, you know, aggressively, but you're right. That was super messed up of me. I can't believe I did that. You know what? Earlier this week, somebody sent me a text, and it made me feel bad too, because I guarantee someone did, or an email where you're like, oh my gosh, was that a passive aggressive one? Are they mad at me? And you can even say, Look, I have felt this way before as well, and it gives you a little bit more agency with them. The other thing too is we've all felt this way, so words on text, words on Facebook, words on a post that someone writes or comments on one of our posts as adults, sound the same to me as they would if so and so was talking to you. They're not just words. There's feelings associated with that, and there's a tone associated with that. So, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 44:45
I just responded to a comment on one of my blogs that what that was like a punch to the gut. And I was, I was, it was such reading. The words gave me such a physical. Experience. So

Emily Roberts 45:01
imagine being 14 and feeling that, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:02
yeah. Well, and I and yes, yes, yes, yes, yes to all of it. I'm so glad that you wrote this book, Emily, you're doing the work that you're doing, because I know that there's just going to be more greatness from you. And I feel like I now have my own personal guide for the teen years on speed dial. So, yeah.

Emily Roberts 45:24
Well, now you do, you do. And I would encourage any of you know right now you can also on my on my website, which is the guidance girl, you can get a free chapter of the book, which I which is the friendship there's, it's actually kind of a special one, because it's got the friendship chapter and part of the family chapter. So it gives a little bit of both for parents who want to download it, or for parents want to download it for their girls to see if they like it. I'm sure they will. But it also is, you know, it's a good freebie. So, yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 45:53
would just say to everybody that's listening, just go buy the book. I mean, whatever, you can download a little snippet if you want, but you're going to want to buy it. I mean, I'm already, I've got, yeah, my book is already worn, and it's, I'm only, you know, four chapters in, and you're, it's just so important what you're doing, Emily, it's so important. And I and there's a quote that I love that I wrote down to make sure that I shared, which is, your assertiveness shapes how others respond to you, and it helps train them how to treat you. And you know, if we can, over the course of of teaching, modeling, practicing these skills with our girls, if we can help them get to a place of really understanding that, yeah, oh my gosh, it will change their it'll not that so much that it'll change their life, but it opens up your life to being something that you can truly design, rather than be kind of like a leaf in the wind.

Emily Roberts 46:49
I love that. I like what you just said, rather than being leaf in the wind exactly because that's kind of the reason why it's mainly the reason why I wrote it, because the truth is, we have so much power in our words and in our behaviors. But really, words matter so much. And when we can give girls the skills to be able to say just a little bit more assertively or a little bit more honestly, you know, things that they really want to say and look and have a guide to do it, it's going to become very natural. It's become natural for a lot of other girls, and I'll tell you the best way to start, besides reading the book, is what you just said. If you say to your daughter, hey, you know what? Why? Let's let's do this. I'll bet you. Okay, I'll bet you and ice cream Sunday, or I'll bet you $5 you try responding this way. Let's see if she responds that way. And this may be a text, or this might be if she has a conflict at school with a girl. I'm betting that over the next, you know, 24 hours, you'll be, you know, if you don't respond right away, or if you respond this day, X, Y, Z, or Z, will happen. You know what? You just win yourself $5 because when they can start to see that you are trying, versus telling them what to do if it doesn't work, then we'll talk about it. And you know what, then I'm wrong when they see that you're not trying to put your own childhood on them, which is what a lot of kids say to me, right? Oh my gosh. I hear it all the time. And you

Casey O'Roarty 48:04
guys, oh, we do? We do? We do. And then the fear like we think about our own. I mean, I made a lot of mistakes, and so my fear is, oh my gosh. I don't want her to make all the same mistakes I did, and it's already proving that it's just not she's not living my life, yeah, it's crazy town. How we but it go, we, yeah, anyway, that's a whole nother, but

Emily Roberts 48:25
that's another one we can do for sure. And I think that the best thing to do is just like you said, we all make mistakes. We all roll our eyes. There was a time last week where my mouth opened and I said, Are you kidding? I can't believe you did that. And then I was like, wait, I can't believe you did that, and I'm so sorry you felt the need that you had to do that. I wish I would have been available to talk to you beforehand. That really, I wish I would have been able to talk to you before. What was going on. Tell me a little bit more about it. And I corrected myself, and I even said, maybe 10 minutes later, I'm really sorry if you felt like I was judging you, because I just didn't know what to say. I was worried about you. Yeah, that was my response. And let me tell you what I got a text from a 14 year old, 15 year old now later that said, thank you for listening. Yeah, what, like, what? When, you know, when do I get good texts from 14 year olds? Hardly ever, but it was. It's like when we correct ourselves, kids respect you, and they learn from that that, okay, well, if someone that's older than me can say that they're sorry, or if they made a mistake, maybe I can do that too.

Casey O'Roarty 49:26
Yeah, modeling. So key. So where else can people find How can people follow you, Emily,

Emily Roberts 49:31
they can find me on Facebook, at the guidance girl, it's the page, and you can find me at Twitter. It's at guidance girl, M, that's em, like Emily, but m, because somebody else took the guidance girl, so I just made it rad and put my own little twist on it. Same with Instagram, that's at guidance girl, M, E, M, and what other social media we've got going on. We've got our LinkedIn. We've got. Facebook, I think that's covered. Do you do?

Casey O'Roarty 50:03
Do you do Tumblr? Are you that down with Tumblr? Yep. Oh, you do. I mean not that I my audience's parents, and I don't know any parents, except for maybe like Kim Kardashian, that are actually on Tumblr. But maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just that outdated, but I've learned.

Emily Roberts 50:18
I just learned how to do it in June. So I'm kind of a novice. When you think about fun, do you like it? It is, it's fun. I like, I'm still, like, a big Pinterest person. So yeah, the guidance girl and I have videos in on YouTube. So there's YouTube channel. That's the guidance girl to put that in. It's all on my website, which is the guidance girl.com,

Casey O'Roarty 50:39
so I hope that I will put links to all of those things in the show notes. So if you are a parent out there listening and you're like, I know about Tumblr, then I will, yeah.

Emily Roberts 50:49
Also give us some tips, you know, for real, and they can. They can also ask any questions to on your the link that you're going to send out, as well as on any of my pages, we answer pretty promptly. I answer or I have somebody forward it to me, so questions are always welcome, and we will get back to you on that too.

Casey O'Roarty 51:11
Thank you so much, Emily, this was great. So packed full, and there are so many more things I want to talk to you

Emily Roberts 51:17
about. I know Me too, me too. I'd be happy to hopefully I can come in person soon, and I appreciate you having me on your show.

Casey O'Roarty 51:23
Awesome. All right. Well, I'll talk to you next time.

Emily Roberts 51:27
Okay, thanks so much.

Casey O'Roarty 51:32
So I love Emily Roberts. I hope that you listeners out there got a lot from our conversation. I am so grateful for what I get to do. I'm so grateful that I get to bring these people that inspire me onto the show and talk to them, so that you can listen in to the conversation. And guess what, I'm on Instagram now, so you can follow joyful courage on Instagram, you can follow my Facebook page. I have a private group called live in love with joyful courage. Would be so happy if you asked to join that we have tons of conversations around parenting and life, and it's a great group of people that are just really aiming towards being their best self, showing up for their kids. Where else am I? That's where I am, and I really want to encourage you to subscribe to the podcast through iTunes. Okay, I'm putting a video in the show notes that my daughter shot of me showing you how to find the the podcast app on your iPhone. So those of you that have an iPhone, you already have an app on your iPhone for podcasts. I'm going to show you how to find joyful courage to make it more to make it easier to listen to each time a new show comes out. So check the show notes for that, and I'm going to run some like contests and stuff to try to really get you all engaged in giving me feedback and letting me know what you think and subscribing. I'm also curious. So there's been a there's been some activity with some amazing humans who support my work and were willing to let me send them envelopes full of postcards, informational postcards that are actually really cute to put out in their community, and so they're popping up around the country. I want to know if you are listening to this podcast, did you see a postcard? And were you like? I gotta check this out, and now you're listening. I want to know. I want to know. I want to know who is picking that who's picking those up and listening in to the podcast. So will you reach out to me? Facebook, I'm on Twitter too. At joyful courage, reach out to me. Let me know you're out there. Let me know you're listening. Let me know what you like. Let me know what you want more of. I really want this to be a relationship. I want to be in relationship with you. I want to be dating you. So if it's one sided, it's just not really that fun. It makes me feel like maybe you want to break up. So would you please get in touch? Give me feedback. Let me know what you think. Rate me on iTunes, that would be awesome. Leave a review. I'm just if it wasn't for you, I couldn't do this. And I love, love, love, love doing this. So reach out and, yeah, get excited for the next episode, and happy parenting.

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