Summer Series: Eps 196, Kids, Drugs and my Conversation with Liz Blackwell-Moore

Resources

https://the20minuteguide.com/

http://www.drugfree.org/

 

Good reading on the teen brain: Dan Siegel Brainstorm Francis Jensen The Teenage Brain

 

Links for young people: http://www.teen.drugabuse.gov/ *This is National Institute of Drug Abuse website for teens

http://www.protectwhatsnext.com/ *This is a website out of Colorado for young people specifically about marijuana use

 

Where to find Liz:

Birchlanestrategies.com (under-construction) Linked in

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Welcome back to the show. The joyful courage podcast is a place for inspiration and education on the parenting journey, I'm your host, Casey o'rourdy, and I work really hard to keep it real and authentic as I share expert interviews with people I trust and admire, and solo shows about my own experiences raising my two kids as a positive discipline trainer and parent coach, I love talking parenting and digging in to what it takes to feel as though we are being effective and helpful, while also acknowledging that it is a messy, messy ride. We all make mistakes. This is not a how to be the perfect parent show. My context is how to work towards being as intentional and conscious as we can while navigating the very real challenges that come with the job of parenting. This summer, I'm revisiting some of my very favorite shows that I think are particularly useful for those of us in the tween, teen era. Because, wow, it sure is crazy to be on this side of things, isn't it? I think everyone will get so much out of these shows. And if your kiddos aren't in the teen years yet, know that I have nearly 200 shows to peruse, and you will get useful nuggets from each and every one, even if it's a repeat listen. Today I'm bringing back my conversation with Liz Blackwell Moore from episode 128 Liz and I go deep into the conversation of substance use and abuse and how to be in relationship with our kids while also navigating the very real decisions they may or may not decide to make I know this is a tough, tough topic. We all want our kids to be safe and healthy, and we all feel the fear around the very real risks Some of them take. This conversation is powerful and left me feeling more grounded about this super intense part of the parenting teens journey. Check it out. All right. My guest today is Liz Blackwell Moore. I connected with Liz through my friend and one of your favorite podcast guests, Julieta Skoog from besproutable.com I am so excited to have Liz on today to talk about an incredibly relevant topic, kids and drugs. Hooray. I know no one really wants to talk about this, but we're going to, and my hope is, as always is, that it's entertaining and informative and leaves you with some tools to take away. Liz has been working in the field of substance use since 2000 her current work involves working with community coalitions and organizations to provide training on prevention strategies as well as technical assistance to translate public health research into practice and implement a restorative, trauma informed approach to addressing public health problems. I'm so glad that you're doing, the work that you're doing. Liz and basically she is going to break it all down for us in a way again, that is helpful. And FYI. Liz lives in Portland, Maine with her wife and two happy kids and a puppy. God bless you. Hi, Liz, welcome to the podcast.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 3:18
Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 3:20
Please share a little bit about your journey of doing what you do. Well,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 3:25
I started after college. I started as a case manager, and I worked with folks who had all had HIV and they also had substance use and mental health disorders, and they usually came to our program because they were homeless. And so in that time of doing that work, I really, I loved doing work with individuals, but I found that I kept looking back like, how did they get here? How it was clear there had been there were so many similarities between many of them in which systems families had really had had failed them in many ways, you know, where they had had bumps and obstacles over the way, over their life, and there weren't really supports and people there to help them through that. And then those things only sort of were made worse. And so I found that I kept thinking about, how could we have prevented this from happening? So I went back to public health school to really think more and and do more research on, how do we prevent, specifically, substance use. So then, for the last 1213, years, I've been doing prevention work, mostly in around, in and around Portland Maine, some a little bit of stuff I've been doing statewide, but it's really been thinking about systems which families fit into. You know that idea of systems, and how can we make those systems better for for young people, so that they can move through their young years and enter adulthood as like healthy and more stable people? Yeah, with support. Efforts in their lives,

Casey O'Roarty 5:01
awesome. And so you went from this whole my hands up in the air, like looking at the bigger picture, and now you and on top of it, you give presentations to parents. So what kind of has guided you in? And I think I know the answer to this, but tell us a little bit about then taking that big system view and bringing it right in front of parents, yeah, so,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 5:25
I mean, I think part of the work has always been so there, I've worked with schools. I work with, you know, people who work with kids, like in child development programs or after school programmings. I work with the police. I work with city officials and healthcare. So the work has always been about everyone like that. We all have this role in keeping kids from using and then, of course, parents play such a crucial role. And so throughout that time, a lot of it has been, how do we really build the knowledge and skills of parents? Because it's hard to do parenting. It's not easy. And I think, yeah, and the more that we sort of a lot of our work is about. So then how do we do really build skills? Because I can do presentations, which, of course, I like doing, because I'm, I'm happy to talk about it. But I found that really doing small group discussion work, where we I present some of the research, and then we say, what do we know about parenting? And then we work through what does it actually mean, and how do we implement it into our own lives as parents? So it really becomes like a discussion amongst parents. And I can't tell you how much I've learned from doing those discussions with hundreds, you know, probably upwards of 600 parents. I have learned more than I could ever have imagined, and it's been so helpful for me in my own parenting, as I have a eight and a 12 year old, so I'm certainly heading towards, you know, the adolescent phase myself. Yeah, well, and

Casey O'Roarty 6:56
anybody who's been listening to me, especially this last fall, so my daughter, we have moved into and as I was looking at your material, Liz, I saw the phrase risk taking years. So we are head first into the risk taking years. Over here, my daughter is halfway through her first year of high school. Yeah, and it's interesting. I'll say it's interesting. That's the word I'm gonna choose. It's interesting how off guard it's taken. Like, I just, I thought, you know, I thought I knew what it would feel like. And listeners, excuse me, I'm going to say this again. It's like being pregnant, and you read about childbirth, and then you're like, Oh yeah, okay. And then you're in labor, and it's like, what? Whoa, yeah. Is going on, right? That's kind of how this last fall has been for me. It's, yeah, okay, I you know, I mean, I'm a parent educator, I've got this down right, right? And then it's like, oh, actually, I had no idea it was gonna feel the way it feels, and that my control buttons were actually so primed and ready to be pushed and this whole like her out in the world, actually, the one making the choices, has been really tough for me, personally to embrace. Yeah,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 8:16
well, it's interesting. I my mom used to describe this to me. She described to me later after, of course, I was an adolescent myself, but she said, the teenagers, it's kind of like you're in one boat and you're teenagers in the other boat, and you have ropes between you and York trying to let out, you know, knots, and they're trying to grab them, and sometimes you're trying to pull the knots back in and pull them closer, and they're trying to let Go. You know, it's kind of like a game of back and forth as you try to as because they might have times where they really need you and want you and they're not really sure why or what that feels like. It's a time of super huge change for them and you, and it can be incredibly awesome and really cool to watch them through the change. And it can be really such a struggle as they maybe try to let out the rope way too fast,

Casey O'Roarty 9:08
yeah, or just, are basically just, hey, listen, I'm going to toss this rope out

Liz Blackwell-Moore 9:16
exactly like you're going to need that we're not quite there yet. Yeah. And so much of that has to do with their brain. Development and, like, what's happening during adolescence, yeah? Talk

Casey O'Roarty 9:26
a little bit about that. What happened, yeah? So

Liz Blackwell-Moore 9:29
I think, yeah. So some of the things I think are really interesting about So the brain is built like a house. It's really built over time, and it's built, you know, with from the bottom up. And so there's really this, and it's built with, like, a lots of input and people doing it. It doesn't get just built by itself, right? The brain isn't like the heart or the lungs that comes out fairly developed. It's really through interactions and the environment in which they develop, and in the in the adolescent years, like in those teen years and in the. Into the 20s, the first the part of the brain that's kind of fully rearing to go at 1312, 13 is that reward center, the one that's most response to risky and exciting experiences. So like you're experiencing it's it's fully developed and ready to go. So

Casey O'Roarty 10:19
what does that mean? Like, can you just kind of tease that apart a little bit, so there's this reward center in the brain, which means the messaging of that is loud, yeah.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 10:31
So it's so the volume gets sort of turned up when they become stimulated by things. So like, for us, when we experience something that feels good. You know, we get this warm, nice feeling across our body, like we just achieved something, or we went skiing and it felt really good. Or you went, you know, on a run, and it felt good. And, you know, your reward dial kind of gets turned up and you feel good. Well for them, their reward dial gets super turned up when they get when they do something exciting and risky, like, way more than ours does like it. And so that means that when they do something really exciting, they get, like, a huge burst of that warm feeling, and so they want to keep doing it. And what's interesting is that while you know, so that's kind of turned up, and at the same time, you have the front part of the brain, which is the one that controls judgment and reasoning, and your ability to control emotions is not fully developed yet, and it's not really integrated with the rest of the brain. And so what happens is you have this sort of turning up of the you know, let's try new things. And then while their ability to sort of make judgments and actually control their impulses, their like desire is more limited, and they also have this thing where they actually they have reasoned through why they're doing something. But what we know is that their reasoning, they skew it way to the pro side, and they think the cons aren't so bad.

Casey O'Roarty 12:03
Oh my gosh, so annoying.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 12:06
Well, you know what's so crazy is it is. But here's the thing, without that, without their desire to want to try new things and go do things and be out there in the world and meet new people, and how would they ever leave home? Yeah. Why would they ever venture out, you know, and, like, find new, new people? How would you ever get them to leave your house? Wouldn't it's like, such a biological necessary thing? Yeah, totally. And it's so frustrating and hard to deal with, I think, at the time, but it also can be really cool to watch them, and what they actually, what they do to us actually, is they start challenging the status quo in ways that can be really cool, because they're like, Wait, why have you always done it this way? I don't know why. That does make sense. And sometimes they're really right, and sometimes they're just challenging to challenge. But all of those things are going to need as they like, move into adulthood. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:00
we had this. Well, I have so many stories here. One is I Dan. I've heard Dan Siegel say, if it wasn't for adolescents, we never would have left the cave totally. And I appreciate that. And like just last night, so my daughter is going to be 15, holy cow, two weeks from tomorrow. And so she found a concert that she wants to go to. And, you know, nothing makes me feel older and more lame than my daughter's music choice, because it's like, and listeners, I know you've heard me talk about this, but oh my gosh, it's just really explicit, lots of the F word, lots of drug reference, like, it's so, like, back in our days, you know, granted, I loved the hair bands, but there was metaphor. She's my cherry pie. Like, maybe he is singing about pie, you know. I mean, we could pretend. But no, there is no metaphor in these, in this music. Anyway, she wants to go, and I'm like, with her friend, and her friend's, you know, uncle, who I've never met. Anyway, she says to me, I'm like, Rowan, it's just so hard because this music, it's just, and she said, Mom,

didn't you like music that your parents didn't like when you were a teenager. Like she just put it right back on me.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 14:28
She knows. Yeah, you know. Sure

Casey O'Roarty 14:30
enough. Yes, that is true. And you know, anyway, so they're

Liz Blackwell-Moore 14:36
smart, yes, and there's so much about picking battles and figuring out which ones are the ones that you really and which ones do you just advise on, and which ones do you make a comment on? What do you just totally not say anything about? Oh my gosh. Which ones do you really say? Like this one I'm really standing firm on. We can talk about it, but I still, you know, I'm really so. Setting down some bigger expectations. And, you know, we're gonna have more conversations about this thing, yeah. You know, it's, yeah, it's really hard to figure out where totally each kid is so different too. I mean, what motivates them, what their challenges are, are all very different, and that's gonna mean something different for each child, really,

Casey O'Roarty 15:19
yeah, well, and so pot, marijuana is a great example of this, because, yeah, you and I both live in states where it's now legal recreational use, not legal for 14 year olds, but it's, I don't know, it's kind of taken away the like it no longer seems to belong in this category of of hard drugs, whether or not it was actually there. I mean full disclosure, and I shared this with you Liz, before the show everyone, I smoked a lot of pot in college and in my 20s. I'm just gonna be honest here, right? So there's this, and now I'm the mother, and now my daughter is being confronted by this, like, try it. Don't try it. And so before we go there, like, what does the science say about marijuana and use in the early years? And like, what's the hard, cold facts?

Liz Blackwell-Moore 16:16
Yeah, and great question, because I think there is so much misinformation, and I think that there has been a lot of changing perceptions right among and like lots of parents, smoked a lot themselves when they're younger, and so they're thinking, Oh, this is really not a big deal. It's like, I shouldn't worry about it so much, and I'm

Casey O'Roarty 16:35
worried, but I and it's not so much. It's not a big deal. But I wasn't 14, right? And, and I wasn't the mom,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 16:42
right, exactly, exactly, well. So what I what I say is, so I have been researching marijuana for, you know, a long time now, looking at what's the latest research. And I think what we luckily have now is the National Academy of Sciences came out with a basically, they did research on the research. So it's like the gold standard for research, because it's really about looking through all of it, which one's valid, which one's not. What what do you know? What do we know? And and they've come with up with some pretty things that are pretty conclusive in terms of ways in which it's harmful. And one of those things is really around young people using and that it's it has lots of harms for young people. And those things are things like, they really has an impact on their problems with learning and memory. So it has, you know, that sort of stereotype of somebody who smokes too much weed, can't remember anything. Well, there's a reason for that, because it really has an impact on the neurons in between the synapses, so that it makes it so that people have a hard time connecting neurons. And so they have a hard time with memory, like having those memories get connected, having chains of memories, and then being able to remember them in the future. And so it has an especially on young people, because their brains are really developing. And so we know it also has a like, pretty significant effects on their mental health. So young people who use

Casey O'Roarty 18:07
regularly. What does that mean? Regularly? Well,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 18:10
what they usually say is regularly is once every 30 days, like, if you've used in the last 30 days, and so that, and again, like, the more you use, the more this might be likely to be true for you. We know that young people who use have are two times more likely to experience depression and three times more likely to have suicidal thoughts. And so some of it is that kids are self medicating, right? So some is, is there's it. The research actually goes both ways. So we know the kids who have some mental health issues are more likely to use marijuana as a way to relieve what they feel like is relieving some of that stress. And it also is true that those who start have more likely to develop these problems got it and Part and Part of the reason for this is really interesting, the way marijuana, it actually does help the initially, it can make people feel calm and relaxed because it binds four times stronger than the than their your natural chemicals that bind to the receptors to make you feel relaxed well

Casey O'Roarty 19:16
after you feel super paranoid. Yeah,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 19:20
right. So, I mean, it can do that. It's just that what happens is the brain likes to do what's easy. And so over time, the brain is more likely to be like, well, it can't relax without marijuana because it works so much better. Got it. And so that's kind of how you get into this phase of wanting to do it over and over again and kind of needing it to be calmed and relaxed. And some people do get super paranoid, and some people don't. I mean, it's that's what's hard about it, is that it's really different for each person, and so their experience with it is different. But what we do know is, if you continue to use it as a young person, it can have a lot of you know, mental health. Problems later in your life, and

Casey O'Roarty 20:02
does it matter if it's being smoked or eaten? Because I know, like, I mean, I was hearing about the edibles showing up at the football games right under the grown ups noses.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 20:13
Oh yeah, yeah, no, it doesn't matter, because all of that, this that I'm talking about is all the Brain Stuff. Okay, it's not the lungs and all that. This is just how it impacts the brain. Yeah, so that's really happens no matter how it gets into your system. Yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 20:28
So little side tangent, what about vaping? So, yeah, I know this, and not necessarily vaping marijuana, but vaping, it's so lame, like this fruity oil that's just basically like, look at me blowing this giant cloud of smoke. I mean, what? Tell me about that? Because that is, yeah, falling in my side.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 20:52
Yeah. So vaping is an interesting thing. Of course. It's like the tobacco companies are always looking for a new way to suck in young people that is, like, for sure, what's happening? Like, what adult wants to smoke? Something like candy cane flavored or cotton candy like they don't like that is purely for children. Yeah. So there's definitely that piece of it, like trying to suck in kids. And I think that there's, what we know is definitely a lot more young people are using vaping as a way, like in general, and some of them are doing just the flavoring. Yeah, and in the flavoring, because it hasn't really been regulated very well by the FDA or at all, until more recently, they're supposed to start reporting what they're putting in it. We actually don't really know exactly what's in it. The tobacco companies say there's nothing bad in it, but, of course, we don't, you know, really know what it is. And then lots of kids are putting nicotine in it, whether it's small amounts or and then you can also use, you can actually put marijuana buds into a vape. And sometimes you can just, they put in dabs, which are, like, really highly concentrated. THC, so like, what I consistently say is all drugs, whether it's nicotine, alcohol and or marijuana or other drugs, they all have a similar a way of impacting that reward center of the brain. And so what we know about them all is they all put you a young person at greater risk for addiction later in life because of the way they impact the brain. So this idea about, like the gateway drug is marijuana. Well, in the end, they all are all of them can be they're all and it's not about like you smoke weed and now your dealer gives you something else? No, it's really about how it impacts the brain, and that the brain can get rewired in ways that make it like basically prime it for addiction. So I think that's the concern. Is really about, how do we keep them waiting as long as possible? Or if they've already started. How do you get them to really mellow out or stop doing that until you can, you know, let the brain develop, you know, then it's like, well, the more when once they use it a certain point, when they're older, their chances of having problematic use just go down dramatically, right?

Casey O'Roarty 23:21
Oh, God, do that, right? Right, because, you know, and listeners know, you know the I am a positive discipline trainer, and I talk a lot about maintaining relationship and how really it's the most powerful tool we have for influencing behavior is the relationship that we nurture. And yes, we I encourage everybody and myself to share our values over and over and over and at the end of the day, they're running out into the world with these crazy, overactive reward centers. You know, sometimes maybe thinking like, Oh yeah, that was that one thing that I know my mom doesn't really want me to do but nah. What are the like? What's the likelihood that she's gonna, you know, know, or it's probably gonna be fine, or whatever? They're having these experiences. And beautiful thing about relationship is my teenager shares like. She lets me know when you know most of the time, I'm not an idiot. I'm sure that there are things that she's keeping to herself, but she also has is pretty open and so, like, how do I navigate that? I mean, how do I say it's natural? Of course, your brain wants to experience an experiment and take risks without saying, like, and, you know, let me know how it goes, right, right with and also not saying, like, I mean, yes, it's not okay, but we're not. I mean, ultimately, what can, like, okay, ultimately we have enough freaking control, you know, like, I can't say, I mean, yes, there's, there's like, certain. Boundaries that, you know, consequences will show up, but we're not of the I'm just, I'm just kind of at a loss. Yeah, I

Liz Blackwell-Moore 25:08
mean, I think this is really hard. This is such a hard, hard thing to navigate, because there's for those parents who who who are sort of pre, you know, like, who have younger kids, who are like, God, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 25:20
sorry. I'm sure you're terrified now. But no, no, no,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 25:24
not because, I think, because I think that I because what I, what I really think is, is similar in that, like, really being present and hearing what's happening with your kids, being with them, having that strong relationship is incredibly important. Important. Number one. That's like, number one, yeah, but I think then having set, setting really clear expectations, and talking about them in various ways, so people who who have younger kids may bring it up in various ways, like why they think it's concerning, try to bring in some of the parts around brain development. And I think now, when you're in a position where they may be experimenting, or they're, you know, I think there's a way to continue to bring in the thread around why it's concerning, and what are the things that they're and really linking it to, what goals do they have, what future aspirations do they have? And how might this get in the way of those things? And some of those things may be brain development stuff and really like about their health. Some of them may be things that, like getting suspended from school or not. Those are, like, real, yeah, whether you they want them to be or whether you think that's an appropriate response or not, it's still the reality. And so helping them sort of see some of those things, I think is really helpful in your setting up the expectations and and then I'd say third, it's like, I'm really have become, as I've done this work, I've really become a pretty big advocate for using restorative practices, and really trying to figure out how do because with restorative practices, it's not like you're just saying, like, oh, okay, you know you did say sorry. It's really about, how do we hold them accountable while also providing them support? So like, in this situation, it's like, what is it for her that she's getting out of this, like, really digging in a little bit more about, like, what, what were you thinking when this happened? Like, what was, what was happening for you? And figuring out, like, is this experimentation, and she's, like, looking for the thrill, and then how do you figure out how else to get thrills, right, without it being that,

Casey O'Roarty 27:38
yeah,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 27:39
is this about social connection? Like she's just seeking out, wanting to be with buddies and friends who think she's cool and she thinks are cool, and, you know, like, is it about that or or is there something deeper, like a like a mental health or other issue where she's self medicating and something else is going on that may meet need a different set of supports, like maybe counseling about what's happening for her. Why is this meeting this, you know, or coping skills, like building coping skills. So I think for each kid, there's going to be a little bit of a different thing that happens when we find out a little bit more and you have the relationship. So finding out more, you may actually really be able to dig in there and figure that out. And then I think there is the piece around holding them accountable, having them hear or think about how they might be harming themselves or others around them by through this behavior. So for instance, I work with a school who's really trying to implement more restorative practices in regards to substance use, in their regards to everything but and they're trying to change their policy so it's not so punitive, but it really has this restorative piece in it. And they had a bunch of kids who got in trouble for vaping in the in a bathroom, vaping.

Casey O'Roarty 28:54
God, yeah. Annoying, yeah. I've seen Snapchat stories where the kids are in class, yes, blowing it into their backpacks, I

Liz Blackwell-Moore 29:03
know. Like, I know. So get your head out of so one of the thing was really interesting is that these kids, like, upon, okay, so they're like, what's the big deal? I'm just you know. So you can tell them the health effects, and you could tell them all this other stuff. But in the end, for for one of them, like a really big thing was hearing in this restorative work they were doing, he got to hear that there were a bunch of ninth graders who were scared to go to the bathroom, and that, like, was really struck him. And for another one, it was really about the fact that now he was going to be suspended from the sports team and couldn't play on you know, so that really struck that person. But the restorative practice allows for that kind of thing to happen. Of them to discover, like, wow, where is this harming other people and maybe possibly themselves? Yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 29:52
Hey, all, I just wanted to remind you that I am cooking up some goodness over here for the fall the joyful courage Academy is coming. Back. I'm going to offer the academy in September for parents of tweens and young teens, 11 to 13. Ish, this has been a big demand from the community, so I'm going to make it happen in October. It will be all about the teens. This is such a powerful way to learn and grow on the journey, rich with content, a supportive community and a one on one call with me makes the four weeks useful and empowering. Stay up to date so that you can grab your spot. Space will be limited. Be sure to sign up for my newsletter for updates. Www dot joyful courage.com/join. And don't forget, there's a lot of powerful conversations happening over in the live and love with joyful courage and the joyful courage parents of teens groups on Facebook asked to join. And don't forget, buy my book. You can get it through my website or simply search for joyful courage on Amazon. I promise you, you will love it. All of this conversation that we're having with kids, I think that I just want to highlight having powerful conversations requires the adult and the teenager to be in solid relationship. Yeah, right, definitely. So I really want I'm listening to that, and I'm hearing and I really want the listeners to tune into that, like, because I also, you know, there's also the argument that I've heard that it's like, you know, enough talk, this talk, it's not making a difference. But I think it that what I'm learning is I am on my life path, and my children are on their own individual life paths, and I can continue to love them and provide, you know, their basic needs, and I can continue to put aside my craziness, right? Because that's the other thing that gets triggered in all of this, is that overwhelming fear, right? That overwhelming you're going to be dead in a ditch. Thank you to my mom, who that was always her thing, dead in a ditch. Yeah. And now it's my thing, right, that comes really strong. And then we move from that place of fear and and we get punitive, we get rigid, we get inflexible. And in that process, we are actually pushing them further away from us, making it less likely that they're going to come to us. And so while I get where Less talk, more action comes from, it's such a different mindset to recognize that the most powerful tool that you have is this relationship, and inside of that is these important conversations, and they are ultimately going to make the decisions that they make.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 32:53
They are and I, and I do think there is power. I do think, though not hiding, so there's the part around the fear, like we need to hold in, you know, hold in that part about that's irrational fear. But I do think there are times we listen. We need to listen to our gut, yeah. And I think that it's okay to say to them, I, you know, this be, this is disappointing, or this is really hard for me, or this is, oh yeah, it's okay to be very clear about some of the things that they need to hear, how it's impacting right? Because they still need to know that stuff. Like, we don't want to be like, Oh, that's no big deal. Because I see lots of people allow their kids to drink in the basement. That's still happening a ton. And where, you know their kids are 1617, and they're like, well, at least I'm having the party here. We see that a lot, and I think that what I'm trying to, really, we're trying to help people understand, is that that young people nuance is difficult for them, right? So if you're drinking in the basement, and parents let you drink in the basement, well, what's the big deal if I drink over here, if I do it over there, like they aren't great with Nuance. They're a little more black and white, and so I'm not suggesting, you know, that we get super punishment oriented. I actually don't think punishment works at all. I but I do think really having frank conversations and figuring out what is, what are some of the contributing problems, and how do we kind of try to manage those. So if, if there is an issue with texting all night, here's one thing, I'll say, sleep is incredibly important.

Casey O'Roarty 34:30
Oh my gosh. My daughter, she's like, Mom, I really don't need that much sleep. I'm like, Hey, listen, it's science,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 34:36
yeah, and so, like, no bucket of science as well. We know that kids use less. They use less drugs if they sleep

Casey O'Roarty 34:43
more. Oh, man. So bedtimes, eight o'clock now, yeah,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 34:48
even like the texting at all hours of the night and the, you know, that kind of stuff. Like, if that's contributing, there may me need to be a couple days without the phone. And I'm not suggesting it's like you. Did this, therefore I punish you. It's like, Hey, how is this connected to the problem? And having them be kind of natural consequences that come with part of a problem, which can be difficult to do, but I think it's, well, it's okay to have a phone

Casey O'Roarty 35:14
curfew, people, Oh, yeah. Like, it's okay to say you can't have your phone in your room overnight. Yes, that's not positive. That's just not, it's

Liz Blackwell-Moore 35:25
it's really just saying, I, I as the parent, there are a couple things that are like these lines for me. And what's interesting is that they often start to unders. They get the lines like, if you establish them, yes, they'll try to bump up against them that. But eventually they often, if you've really, if you're in good relationship with them, they they stay, and then you slowly work on drawing out the boundaries further and further together. And of course, that is messy. Oh, it's so messy. Yeah, so messy. But I think that's the whole the whole project is about, like, how do we balance nurture and structure? Like, how do we hold those two things at the same time while we're and sometimes we get a little more structured, and sometimes we get to really do work on our nurturing. You know, it's we're all struggling, you know, struggling through this together, for sure.

Casey O'Roarty 36:19
Yeah, and what I said previously about the fear piece, I love that you circled back and yes, absolutely, sharing our concerns. What I was speaking into, though, is sometimes fear, if we're not present and mindful, fear, it can become this. It's like a freight train Oh, totally takes us off into crazy land if we're not recognizing like, Oh, of course, I am feeling concerned right now, but yeah, I do not need to give this 30 minute lecture and take everything away and like, it gets Yeah, I know that was my experience earlier this fall, it was like I couldn't even relax my belly, like I just couldn't breathe it out. And it was really interesting. And anyway, I had a little energy work done, and it's all much better, and I'm much calmer. That's good. And so I can be with my concern, right, as a parent, right? I can be with our concerns without allowing fear to take over and get in the way of what needs to happen that's just wanted to Yeah,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 37:27
and become your like, kind of irrational, and become like so that you can't hear even where they're coming from or what's happening for them, because you're just in a space of freaking out. Yes, yeah. I think that's like so and it's such an important place to be and really, and I think that's how we get to understanding them and where they're coming from, and so we can respond in ways that are helpful.

Casey O'Roarty 37:50
And like you mentioned earlier, you know, when should we panic? I mean, I don't think we should ever panic, but that's helpful. But when should we, like, really feel like, oh, this might be bigger than what this whole relationship piece is. How do we know when it's really how do we know? Liz,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 38:09
I know it's a hard it's a there's like, heart fine lines in there, right? But I think that as a as a way of of some guidance on it is we talk about these sort of changes in the what I'd say are the five P's, so it's, it's major changes in either their physical like physical appearance, personality changes, participation, like they were into this and now they don't, won't do school, or they won't do art, or they won't do any of the things that they really loved. They spend time with a totally group of different group of people all of a sudden, or they're not their public image has really changed considerably. So again, it's not like any they're like bad or good. It's just that there's been major changes in those five areas I think are a time to say who, maybe something is happening here that I need to really have some guidance with a professional on like that might be a time to and there's so many awesome people out there who are really adept at helping people assessing, like, Where, where Are we at? Are we at the experimentation phase? Or are we at like or is this really just or is there something deeper happening that we really need to work on with them and be supportive about? So I would say those are kind of the things, major things we're looking for. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally,

Casey O'Roarty 39:36
and it's a little terrifying, mostly because there's also so many like, I'm thinking about individuation, which is a really natural Yes, right? And and sometimes I could see individuation being like a public image shift and changing interests and so. Like, it's, it's so basically, I'm saying it's messy, it's not head and dry. It's

Liz Blackwell-Moore 40:05
true. And I would say that it's really one of those things that really, it's, like, if you're, I think there are some core things though, like, they, they love, I mean, it's the teenagers are all about trying out new ways of being in the world. That's, that's totally something that just comes with the territory. And a lot of this stuff is but I would say that there are some things though, like, if you if they have, for the first 15 years of their life been totally like, I'm gonna be such and such like, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be a musician, or I'm gonna be, you know, and all of a sudden, that's of no importance. And I mean, I worked with, I was worked with this family who there, they were able to say their son, who was really used smoking a lot of weed, and they the dad was using, like, lots of punitive measures, and he was not able to that wasn't working. And so he we actually had this. We did, like, we called them parent meetups, and we had this parent meetup. And so then he actually came back, like a like, a year later to to talk to me about it, and just said, you know, I found myself, I I actually went back to him and said, Listen, here's what I'm going to back to the relationship, and just saying, I'm so concerned because you used to love music, and one of you musician, and now I never see you play anymore. I'm you don't even it's nothing you're even interested in. And I'm so concerned because of this and how you used to be with your friends, and how you used to be really into your sister and help her out, and now you're not even like, you don't that concerns me. And was able to, like, sort of bring it back down to the relationship. And his son was like, Really, it struck him, yeah, because it was such a turn of events. And so he was able to really hear that in a different way. And I think that that's the conversation having with them is like, what's what's happening for you and and how do we help them through that change? And I think it's okay to change all those things, your physical change, personality, participation, it's just if it's all happening at once. Yeah, drugs and alcohol may be impacting that, you know, and may have and it may be worth just having a conversation with somebody who can help guide through, like, what can we do about this? And actually, there's great online resources. There's a this. There's a bunch of them. So there's drugfree.org is great, and they have awesome parents stuff in there. There's also this 20 minute guide. It's called, and it's really about helping parents use motivational interviewing. So it's essentially saying to your kids, like, hey, what do you want in your life? And like, trying to use motivational interviewing to help them identify how whatever their use is might be problematic or get in the way

Casey O'Roarty 42:57
of that. Yeah. So

Liz Blackwell-Moore 42:57
is that on the drug free.org No, it's separate. It's, it's called the 20 minute guide.com Okay, and that one's great too. So anyway, there's a lot of great resources out there, and I think that, um, and then there's, like, locally, in each community, you know, and school social workers are awesome resources, you know, they're really great resources for helping with the kind of navigating some of this difficult, this difficult stuff.

Casey O'Roarty 43:23
Yeah, and I think that for me, what I've noticed, and I think I've mentioned this is, you know, I think it's really important for all of us to have those, those friendships, like the parents, having friendships where you can be really honest about what's going on with your kids. And I've realized too, like, I need to pick from I know I have a lot of friends, and not all of them are the ones that I want to go to. I want to go to the ones who aren't going to say, Oh yeah, wow, we haven't, you know, yeah, we haven't dealt with any of that. Like that makes me want to kill people, yeah, but I have my little handful that I know I could shoot a text to them and they're gonna respond with, yep. This is where, you know, like there's camaraderie in navigating this really quasi normal, natural period of time where kids are doing stupid things. Yep. So that's been really powerful for me, too, on my journey and and really recognizing who those people are,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 44:25
yeah, and I was actually just gonna say, finding other people in your life to help that through move through this period, whether it's like people, like you're saying people are totally on the same page, or whether it's like the the parents of your friends, your kids, friends, like trying to figure out how to create relationships with them, or, yeah, or just finding other people, because there's so much stigma around this, yeah, and so people tend to retreat right problems happen and like, don't reach out. And that's, that's when things get really difficult for everybody. And like, the more. Because everybody is dealing with whether it's easy right now or not, everybody's dealing with somebody in their house who's really changing significantly and a lot happening. And so how do we find other people in our lives that can help us, just support us through this really difficult that what can be difficult, what can be really amazing too, you know? So it's like trying to get psyched about the amazing stuff, because they are, they can, man, they're they're learning new things every day. They're bringing home new stuff. They're challenging us in ways, keeping us lifelong learners. There's amazing things about it, but it can be really hard too to navigate and emotionally taxing on a relate you know your spouse relationship, and you know can be difficult, and

Casey O'Roarty 45:47
you're not alone, like that's what I'm hearing you say, too. It's it's easy to feel isolated, and oh my gosh, it's just my family. But start to reach out, and you'll find that you are not alone on this journey. And and there are resources. Thank you. I'm gonna make sure those websites are in the show notes. Yeah. So is there anything else that you can share, any final thoughts for listeners, just around and I'm really appreciating Liz also that you are highlighting that it is, it is a really amazing period of time, like I'm having a great time, even as some of it is not so great, yeah, I it is. It's fun, it's funny. It's like, yeah, flashback after flashback in that totally, this is a whole another tangent, but it's like, I was no angel, right? So, you know, I mean, yeah, there's

Liz Blackwell-Moore 46:38
a part of you that can appreciate that of wanting to do and be your own thing. Yeah. I mean, I guess my last thoughts would be to say too that, you know, it's there's so much, you know, there can be all this uncertainty and change. And I just and that all we know that, like all of us, have incredibly flexible and learning brains, and so the bad stuff that happens, we can all be resilient from that right? Like there's resilience always, and so in the midst of stuff that feels horrible and awful, and how is this ever you know the brain and the and we and people are really resilient, and that we can grow and change, and the brain does develop and grow and change and and so that any all the bad stuff can be, we can we can be flexible and change and heal. Yeah. So I think that as people, you know, we just have to kind of move through this time being who has open and breathing through it as we can, yes,

Casey O'Roarty 47:39
meditate, everyone, yes

Liz Blackwell-Moore 47:40
and really daily and find support truly, I can't say enough of how many parents I've talked to who feel alone and lonely in this and that finding others is really has been incredibly important for them well.

Casey O'Roarty 47:57
And so my final question that I always end with is in the context well, for you, it's in the context of parenting teens. What does joyful courage mean to you?

Liz Blackwell-Moore 48:08
I think, for me, it means, you know, trying to see all those amazing things that are happening as you move through adolescence. You know, all the ways that we're learning new things bringing they're bringing new ideas and new things to into our lives, keeping us on our toes, and also it means having the courage to stick with our values and listening to our instincts. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 48:31
thank you. Where can listeners find you and follow your work? Well,

Liz Blackwell-Moore 48:36
I'm actually working on a web page. It's coming soon. It will be birch Lane strategies.com and they can also find me on LinkedIn right now. And Liz Blackwell, more, okay,

Casey O'Roarty 48:46
I will put links to both of those even and with a little parentheses under construction on your website, but I'll make sure all that's in the show notes. And thank you so much, Liz for coming on. This was super helpful and fun, and even though it's scary, it's important. Got to keep talking about it exactly.

Liz Blackwell-Moore 49:04
Thank you so much for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 49:09
Thank you for listening. I'm so honored to serve you each and every week. I love to hear what you think about the show. A great place to share your thoughts is iTunes. Your review will help others find the show and take in the goodness and you never know. I may read your review live on the podcast. Big thank you to my team, Tay Alison and Chris Mann from pod shaper, so grateful for the ways you all support me and the work of joyful courage. Until next week, bring your attention to your breath, ride it into your body, find the balcony seat and trust that everyone is going to be okay.

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