Ep 95: Jeanne-Marie Paynel talks Montessori and Positive Discipline

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful courage podcast episode 95

Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place for information and inspiration on the parenting journey. I am your host, Casey o'rourdy, poss positive, positive discipline trainer and parent coach. I am thrilled that you are listening in if you are a new listener, welcome, welcome. Welcome to the community. I am so happy that you found your way here. And I encourage you after this show to peruse the Bank of episodes that have come before this. I have a wealth of information amazing guests, and I know that there will be more for you to be inspired by so I invite you to do that. If you find yourself laughing, taking notes and or excited about what you hear on the show today, do me a favor and pay it forward. Share this episode with your friends, family, neighbors, strangers at the bus stop. Your sharing is the reason I'm able to show up for you each week, and I'm deeply, deeply honored to do so. My guest today is Jean Marie Pannell. Jean Marie has her M, E, D, master's in education. For those of you who don't know what that means, is founder and CEO of voila Montessori, and is a Montessori parenting mentor and home consultant a parent of two young adults, Jean Marie launched voila Montessori, in response to the overwhelming demand from parents for advice and guidance, for raising children in a gentle, peaceful and supportive environment that is conducive to their full development, psychological, academic, artistic, spiritual, physical, Cultural, etc. Families who work with Jean Marie reap the benefit of her two AMI Montessori certifications covering childhood development from birth through age six, extensive classroom experience and first hand parenting knowledge. Her mission is to help parents appreciate the true importance of their role, not as servants or teachers, but as supporters and guides of their children's natural development, I love that. Welcome to the show. Jean Marie,

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 2:27
well, thank you for having me. Casey, it's it's a pleasure to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 2:31
I'm so happy that you are here. Please share a little bit more with the listeners about your journey of doing what you do.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 2:39
So my journey of doing what I do, I really started working with children later in life. Then I think looking back, I would have hoped for I started out as a graphic designer, working in advertising for many years, and it's gone until I had my own children, that I realized that there was this dormant passion of wanting to be in the presence of children every day. And that's what led me to go back to school and do my master's in Montessori education, and then, you know, be in the classroom and such. And really, what I do today is really sharing some, I think, very important but very basic knowledge around parenting that I so wish I had had as a young parent. And it's, it's, you know, we all say that parenting, there's no manual to it, and so I guess the work that I'm doing today is really trying to be that manual, or to share that manual of what I think is important in How we nurture our children, how we guide our children. And you know, as you say in the introduction, we are not our children's servants. We're not here to do everything for them, but we are here to empower them to do things for themselves, and that's what it's all

Casey O'Roarty 4:18
about. Yes, love that. And today, on the show, we're going to talk about Montessori as a philosophy. So why don't we start with how do you how did you discover Montessori and what? And was that before you had kids or after you had kids? And then what impact has it made on your life?

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 4:36
So I discovered Montessori because my brother, who is 12 years younger than I am, went to a Montessori Preschool, and so I think that was my first introduction to it. And I just love, you know, watching the children do their work and such. And then I again, picked up a book when I was actually. Living in France, expecting my first child that is just called the child in French, but it is the discovery of childhood in English, and it is by Dr Maria Montessori. And it really was a book that kind of to me, gave me permission to really just enjoy this journey and to accept that the my child was going to be my guide through my parenting journey, and that was really my first formal introduction to Montessori. And I just, you know, started parenting that way. That is really the only book that I read as I was expecting, and when I decided to kind of do an assessment on my life, and that, you know, graphic design and advertising wasn't hitting it anymore, and wanted to go back to school, going and Finding out about Montessori and that it was really recognized internationally. And I went to the Montessori Institute here in San Diego, and sat in on that first lecture. And I remember, really was this overwhelming sensation of I was in the right place. This is where I wanted to be. And what was fascinating to me is that everything that the trainer was sharing were things that I had kind of done intuitively raising my child. I now had two children, so I just felt like this was definitely something that made total sense to me, and was the way that I had already naturally done things. You know, of course, I hadn't done everything well, but there were definitely, you know, some approaches that that made total sense to me and, and that's, you know, since then, I've just wanted to share all this information and just make it available to families everywhere, all over the world, whether you know, families are in Montessori schools or not. I think to me, it just is, you know, something that really needs to be shared worldwide. And Montessori was, and I think she has a special place in my heart, because Dr Montessori was a woman, was actually the first woman allowed to go to medical school, more than 150 years ago, she she actually had to ask permission from the pope at the time to be able to be allowed to study medicine, which today seems completely crazy, right? That was her reality. So you know, for me, it's, it's, she was just kind of a genius before her time in in through her scientific study, really revealed to us the secret of childhood, the secrets of child development, of brain development and so forth that we today is being proven through All the brain research and brain scans and everything. So to me, it just just makes so much sense

Casey O'Roarty 8:25
well, and I love what you said when you after reading her book, pulling from it, that sense of permission to hold our children as our guides. I think that that is so powerful, and to trust that, you know, to trust them, to treat them, and trust their development, and trust that those social, emotional life skills will come when we create an environment where they get to practice. And so both of my kids started off in a Montessori school here in our town, my daughter did two years of preschool and then kindergarten, and my son did three years of preschool. So shout out to Mrs. Dean, our local Montessori teacher, and then they moved into the local public school, and they've thrived in that setting, even, even as there are pieces that are not necessary that I'm not totally aligned with in the public schools, in our particular public school setting, the kids are so flexible and showing up so well that that that piece, those pieces that aren't I'm kind of like, Oh, I wish they didn't do that. You know, it's not having this huge impact on them. What would you say sets the Montessori experience and come from, right? Because it's really a different come from when we think about kids, apart from the pre the traditional school settings. Well, for

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 9:57
one, it is child. Child driven. So contrary to our more traditional schools, where it is really adult led, where it is the adult deciding what the child needs to learn that specific day, and Montessori really comes from the notion that we are all born with this intrinsic need to learn and to adapt to our time, place and culture. And this is this is just human evolution. This is just what we do, right? And so we need to trust that the child knows what they need to learn to move ahead. And you know, when you think of it, the child figures out within, you know, 12 months time, more or less, how to get up on their seat and walk. That is just because that's what they need to do, that they're they're watching us, they're wanting to do the same thing. They learn how to speak in perfect syntax within the first three years of life, just by following our modeling and so forth. So it's really about setting up an environment. And we talk a lot in Montessori schools about the prepared environment, which is a classroom that is really prepared for this little human being, which to me is, you know, a child is an adult in the making. So it's just that we just lower things. We, you know, have child sized furniture, all of that, which today seems pretty obvious, but it wasn't so obvious. And you know, under Dr montessori's time, and I think all schooling owes a lot to her, but in the in the actual curriculum and such it is that it's really child driven. It is really about being self directed, so that a child really knows what they need to learn and they will come and show interest for a particular area, and we really guide them and give them the lessons necessary to master a certain aspect of the curriculum. The other thing that I think is really wonderful is that all of the activities in the prepared environment are purposeful. There is a purpose to the activity. There's there's, you know, whether it's understanding a concept or or mastering some fine motor skills or gross motor skills, there's always a purpose. It's not about entertainment or keeping them busy. It's really purposeful.

I The other thing is that there are always mixed agents, and this is wonderful for socialization, where you have, you know, the two and a half year old that is going to look up to the five year old and really be intrigued by the work that the five year old is doing, and be motivated to to know that this is what they are going to get to do once they master, you know, everything that comes before, and the five year old can also practice what they have learned by showing the two and a half year old How to do something new. So it's a beautiful community that is very much more like a family where you have siblings of different ages. You know, the concept of separating our children by these birthdays and having a room full of three year old is is pretty unnatural. I mean, you know, you and I don't work with people that only have our age, right, right, right? So it just makes a lot of sense that way. Yeah. And the other, the other big thing that I love is the idea, or the notion of freedom of movement, as you and I know young children are in perpetual motion. Yes, they are. And to ask little people to sit still is pure torture. So to me, it's just the idea of letting them freely, you know, walk around, choose work, whether they want to work at a table or on a mat, on the floor, or, as you know, I had a classroom in San Diego, so I even had an outdoor environment. They could take their work outside. There's this freedom, free flowing, where they can choose where they work, on what they work and and it is just. A beautiful environment where everybody is really doing what they want to be doing. And, and it's just, it's just lovely. You're making me nostalgic for being a classroom.

Casey O'Roarty 15:12
It is lovely. And, yeah, and I'm thinking back to my kids time in the Montessori classroom. And, you know, thinking like what you said, how each of the you know, and you call it the work, right? The kids pick out their own work, and it's everything is purposeful, and even in their in the holding of this space, I remember the kids would ask for if they wanted to do a work that they'd never done before. They'd ask for a lesson. And they were trained on what does it look like? What does it sound like to ask for a lesson. And I love that, and it's funny the mixed ages thing, yes, so great. And Ian, so my son has always been about twice the size of every other kid his age, which is great when he's the youngest. And I remember going in for my little parent teacher conference and the teacher saying, you know, we, you know, Ian's now, Ian's one of the oldest we'd really love for him to, you know, show up more as a leader. And Ian was like, Mom, there are babies in my class. They might be kids that are at his same age, but they were so much smaller than him that he was just like, oh no. And it was funny any anyway, he's a he's an amazing leader, and but I remember that from the preschool classroom, and I don't think it mattered what kind of environment he was in, he just knew in his physical body that he was so much bigger than everybody else that he just wanted to to work alone. And I remember he would say, and is this a Montessori thing? When they say, No, watchers, please.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 16:41
Well, because there are, we let children observe, right, right? So we learn so much from observing others doing work. So there is, you know, there are some rules, and that's something like a misconception I think that people have about Montessori is because we say it's really chosen work. They think that it's kind of this, you know, classroom where it's a free for all right, but it's, it's not because there's actually a lot of limits that are set by the environment itself. And so one of the things you know, like you say about the lesson, you know, a two and a half year old that is just coming into the environment isn't going to be able to do the work of a five year old. And so if they go on the shelf to take it off the shelf, the only thing that we need to ask is, have you had a lesson on that? And they know that? No, that happens. So they just put it back, and that's it. You know, it's not, no, you can't touch that. It's, oh, have you had a lesson? Like, do you know how to use it and and if they don't, then they don't use it. And the other thing that you say, watch a week, I call them observers, that children are perfectly allowed and even encouraged to watch other children doing work. But we never, never interrupt our friends working, right? So we actually observe with our hands behind our back, with silence, and we just watch. And it's just beautiful to see all these little, you know, children just their hands behind their back, and just watching what you're doing, and they learn from it. And it's just, it's beautiful, but it's true that sometimes some children don't want anybody watching them. So, you know, they Yeah, and I think, move on.

Casey O'Roarty 18:34
I you know. And I think for Ian, it was, it was a lovely opportunity for him to have some power to be able to say, No, watchers, please. Exactly right. So anyway, um, yay. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. So you also have positive discipline in your toolbox.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 18:53
I do. I do and, and thank goodness for positive discipline. Because, because as beautiful as Montessori is, there was this notion for me in and maybe it's because, you know, I started out kind of later in my career or what, but I was a bit overwhelmed with managing 25 little humans, and

Casey O'Roarty 19:22
I can't imagine why, like 25 two to five year olds in one room. What's the problem?

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 19:30
So we were two adults, and you know, we had 25 children, but they're all different ages. They all have different needs. And you in your training, you are made to kind of idolize this wonderful self discipline child that, just, you know, chooses their work and puts it away nicely and just does it, you know, with with no qualms whatsoever. But. But reality hit where, well, they wasn't quite like that. You know, there were children who were coming from different homes, who had different needs, who had different characters, and such and and positive discipline was introduced to me by in an in service day, where we had a full day with a trainer whose last name I do not remember, but her first name was Penny.

Casey O'Roarty 20:26
Was it? Penny Davis? Yes, yay. She lives up here by me now up in Washington State. So

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 20:34
just wonderful. And it just opened my eyes up to all these possibilities. And it was just, I remember it just being a glorious day where that was kind of my first introduction to positive discipline. And right away, you know, was able to use some of these tools in the classroom, and just saw so much change and so much ease, even, you know, within myself, that then I decided to do follow up trainings with positive discipline in the classroom, and then did positive teaching, positive discipline parenting way or I forget, I forget the name of the course, and that was actually with Jane Nelson herself, which was just again, you know, amazing, right? Which helped me also in just my personal life. Because not only was I dealing with 25 little humans, you know, in my day job, but when I came home, my other full time job was dealing with my eight year old and four year old at home and so positive discipline, just, you know, kind of changed rock my world in in both professional and personal life and just, and I've just, you know, has since just never stopped praising it and such and and to this day, from our meetings here, we have a mentor group that meets every month, and I try as much as possible to go every month, because I'm always learning something new, and it's just such a supportive community that it's just been really great. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 22:21
I think there's something really to say about that. I mean, even it doesn't matter if you're a parent practicing positive discipline or an educator practicing positive discipline in the classroom, or just a trainer, I think that that cons that community when you come together, there's something so powerful when I get to sit in a room full of people that work with parents around positive discipline. It's such a lift. And it's, you know, because often we talk about it as being, you know, oh, this is how we are with children, but it's really, this is how we are exactly with humans, and always trying to walk that talk. And yes, it's such a, such a I know it's been such a gift in my life as well. So then there's a lot of overlap between positive discipline and Montessori. Will you talk a little bit about the overlaps and how they support each other?

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 23:16
Yes, definitely. I mean, I think you know, one of the main overlap is just respect of the individual and respect of the individual child. You know, for me, that's just been really a big one of how we communicate and how we show compassion and empathy and try to understand what is going on in the child's world, as opposed to just, you know, being the dictator of telling them what to do and what not to do. So that's that, to me, is really a big one. And just the, you know, the other aspect is that I love is, is how to involve them in tasks and to give them that significance and belonging that we often refer to in positive discipline. I think Monte really is a great compliment to that, because in Montessori, we are constantly empowering them to be able to do things for themselves, and we are guiding them to to master all of these different, you know, life skills that that we're going to need, that are, that are, you know, building blocks to become a full fledged, you know, individual and independent and and confident and such. So, you know, and always connecting the the child back to the environment to to really give them that that satisfaction through through their work, through their their i. Um, you know, again, that the significance and belonging is just beautiful. So to me, it's really and actually, I've had this conversation with Jane Nelson many times. And she, you know, often talks about how Montessori was more kind of the the academic part of the whole child. And positive discipline is more of that, that emotional intelligence, so, so blending the two of them is really giving the the essence of the entire child, of that entire self, construction of the child. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 25:39
I see that. I see that. And I love, you know, when I think about Montessori, I feel like the Montessori model is, you know, I think of the tool, take time for training. Yes, taking time for training mistakes being opportunities to learn, exactly, you know. And also it's like we expect, like, of course, they're going to make mistakes. Kids don't make mistakes because they're naughty or because they're bad, right? They make mistakes because they don't have the tools to navigate whatever it is that's come up for them, yeah, or they're hungry.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 26:16
And you bring up a good point about mistakes, because there's one thing about the the Montessori the didactic material itself. It is there's always a control of error within the material itself so that the child can self correct, meaning that I don't know if you remember from your children being in the classroom, the binomial cube. And the trinomial cube, by any chance,

Casey O'Roarty 26:45
it was this described.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 26:47
It's kind of this three dimensional puzzle. The binomial cube is just black, red and blue. And you you built this cube, and when you go to put it away, you have to build the queue properly for the box to close. And if you don't build it properly, the box is just not going to close. So you try again and you try again until you close the box. So nobody is coming around telling you you did it wrong or right. You are getting the feedback from the material itself. So it's really that beautiful kind of the natural consequence of doing your work and having understood the work. And if you, if you, you know, put it away properly. Then, then you can close the box and put it back on the shelf. If not well, you just have to try again. And there's nothing bad about it. And especially young children we know will repeat over and over and over again an activity until they have mastered it. That's just, that's just, you know, their natural need to for repetition. And so, yeah. So to me, it's just, it's, it's, it's a beautiful compliment, Montessori and positive discipline just really work very well hand in hand.

Casey O'Roarty 28:10
And you work with families all over the world. I do.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 28:13
I do. So today I've left the classroom, and I'm really all about helping parents, guiding parents to create home environments that are really based in the Montessori philosophy, and then sharing a lot of the positive discipline tools as well. I really, having been in the classroom, parents were just constantly asking me, why is my child so different in your classroom, knowing this prepared environment that they are at home and which led me to to create Vala Montessori to really help families prepare their home environment for these little Humans that they are going to be living with, and so that's that's what I do today, and yes, families from all over the world. Thank goodness for Skype, because I get to talk with, you know, people from all different continents. And it's just been really a lot of fun. Will

Casey O'Roarty 29:18
you are you willing to offer a couple small suggestions for people that are listening right now, who are thinking, Yeah, I want to create an environment that's prepared for my young kids. I mean, a few things come to mind,

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 29:30
sure, sure. I mean, there's, um, you know, definitely for so depending on, you know, the age that you're in. I always say for you know, maybe expecting parents, or parents of newborns, get down on your hands and knees and crawl around your home, as simple as that, like seeing from their perspective, they're, they're down low, right, and, and, and even when you're even when you're decorating like when. You're decorating their space. Bring some artwork down low at their eye level. Let them they need. They need, you know, artwork or photograph and such. So it's about just seeing it from their perspective for one and then just making things accessible to them. So be like, be aware of what your child is constantly asking for, right, you know, and they

Casey O'Roarty 30:28
don't ask, they don't ask in a late in, in typical language, right? Like, become a decoder of what they really need.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 30:37
But, but just, just an example of, you know, here in San Diego, I actually do home visits and, and I was doing a home visit for a parent whose child was about to go to a Montessori school. So there was three year old, and she wanted to, you know, make sure she was in tune with what the school was wanting and such. And she also had a nine month old, and honestly, during that hour and a half home visit, we must have been interrupted at least 20 times by this three year old wanting a glass of water. And so she would get up and get a glass and put some water and give it to them. And you know, as children do, they'll just take a sip and then go off and play, and they come back and they're still thirsty. And this, you know, went on 20 times, and one of my simple suggestion to her was, why don't you bring a few cuts down low at his level? Because there's a water dispenser right here, and I'm sure he can be taught how to use it. You know, she was like, Oh, and, you know, a few weeks later, I spoke to her, and that had just changed her world, because now she wasn't being her child's servant by constantly getting him what he could very well manage on his own, if we just tweak the environment a little bit To empower him to do these things for himself.

So it's just about looking at it from their perspective, and kind of seeing what it is that they're needing, and also just being aware that they are way, way, way more capable than you will ever give them credit for. So kind of get out of your comfort zone and, you know, show them how to spread peanut butter on the toast or whatever, you know, whatever they're wanting for snack, because there are going to be so empowered by doing these things for themselves, and then it will give you space to do other things and to relax and to live more in a community setting, in partnership with Your children

Casey O'Roarty 32:59
well, and I just love how kids that feel empowered don't have to slip into behavior where they're taking it, where they can get it exactly. And that makes me think too. As you were talking, I was thinking about that, I've heard Jane say as well, and for listeners, so anyone who doesn't know Jane Nelson is the author of positive discipline and co author of most, if not all of the positive discipline books. But she will say, you know, quit doing for your children what they can do for themselves. And like you said, we shortchange them. We often think they are less capable than they are and and, you know. And it's not, don't give them a steak knife to put the peanut butter on their bread, you know. But right,

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 33:46
progressively. I mean, I write a lot about giving knives to children, but it's true. It's a progression, you know. And to me, it's true, you know, it's, it's, I mean, imagine if you knew you were capable of doing something, and somebody would just like, No, no, no, let me do it for you. I mean, how frustrating would that be? And that's, you know, that's where children are, and then we wonder why they are having tantrums and why they're getting annoyed with us, it's because we're not giving them, you know, credit for how capable they are.

Casey O'Roarty 34:27
Yeah. So for listeners that are unfamiliar with Montessori, what? What would you suggest for them? Where should they go for more information? So,

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 34:37
um, so I have a lot of information on my website. But one thing I will say is, if you are looking for, you know, Montessori schools do your homework like, really research well, and there's a few kind of red flags to look for, you know, like the mix age. Classrooms and things like that. Montessori itself, the method was never copyrighted. So there are many, many Montessori schools, and there are many Monte schools. So just, just be aware, like, you know, do your research, look into it. I'd be more than happy to answer your questions. And there's, you know, there's the AMI. Like AMI is Association Montessori International, which is one of the accreditors, and that's where I did my training, that that is the association that Dr Montessori founded herself. So that's a great resource on the AMI, either AMI global or AMI USA. And then, you know, it's really about doing your homework and and knowing what you're looking for. And even, you know, for me, any type of school that you're thinking of putting your child into it's really, really important that you take time to observe how the adults are treating the children, how what is the interaction? What's going on? Do the children seem happy? Are the are the adults really coming, going down to their level and looking at your child, in your in their eyes and and things like that. So, you know, do your homework. That's be the main thing.

Casey O'Roarty 36:27
Well, I'm so glad that you're out there as a resource, too, and I'll make sure that links to you are in the show notes as well.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 36:35
Thank you. And

Casey O'Roarty 36:35
I have, I have one last question, yes, and I love to ask it from the context of whatever the content of the show is, so from the context of the Montessori lens, Jean Marie, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 36:52
Joyful courage to me? For one what comes to mind is just being aware of how lucky we are, just that the practice of gratitude is to me, what brings me great joy. And so, you know, in the context of more, Montessori is just being in awe of the what your children are going through with their their kind of, you know, their evolution, their adaptation to to the world and then and then courage is also just speaking up for, for what is, and accepting at times that we might be wrong, that we might have not interacted with our child the way that would have felt better and to be okay with going to your child and say, I really didn't like the way I did that. You know, I'm going to try to do better tomorrow, or I'm going to try to do better next time. I think it's extremely courageous for us as adults to be okay with saying to a child, I did something wrong, you know, so, and I know that's a lot about positive discipline too. Is, you know, accepting, kind of, you know, us asking for, not for forgiveness, but just for, you know, being aware that we were not perfect, and we're learning, we're learning, you know, next to them so that would be joyful. Courage is really being in gratitude and being courageous to to own up to our own stakes.

Casey O'Roarty 38:41
Beautiful. Thank you, and now please share with the listeners where they can find you and follow your work.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 38:48
Well, I think the easiest is voila Montessori. So voila being a French word for AHA, which is V, O, i, l, a Montessori, M, O, N, T, E, S, S, O, R. I.com that's my website. I have a lot of resources. There lots of downloads and such. I'm also on Facebook, under the same name, Instagram and Pinterest. Pinterest, I love because I've kind of curated it with different areas of the home, which can be really helpful for parents who are wanting to set up a Montessori environment for their children. And I think I've shared with you as well a little link for a little ebook that I just created with 21 positive discipline tools that I hope will be helpful.

Casey O'Roarty 39:42
Oh, great. I will make sure that that also is in the show notes. Thank you so much for that. Thanks for coming on.

Jeanne-Marie Paynel 39:49
Well, thanks so much for having me. This was a great conversation. Thank you. You.

Casey O'Roarty 40:01
Ah, I am so grateful to Jean Marie for coming on the show and spending time talking with me about Montessori and positive discipline. One of my favorite takeaways from our conversation was the idea that we are all born with intrinsic desires to learn and adapt to our environment. Imagine if we all remembered this in the quest, in the journey of raising kids, they are born with an internal desire to learn and they want to be connected to you. Keeping that in mind, so much great stuff in that conversation. I would love to give a quick shout out to a community member, somebody from the live in love with joyful courage group. She's been a follower of my work for a long time. Hey, Janice. I recently got an email from Janice requesting more podcast postcards, and it just reminded me that I've got all these postcards, so they're just little cards, and they talk about the show, and there's a picture of me and the logo, and the reason that I buy them is because I would love To sprinkle communities with the cards so that people know where to find me and my work and where to find the podcast. And Janice also reminded me of my quest to impact 1 million kids by the end of this year. So thank you, Janice. Thank you. Thank you for reaching out. And I also want to let it be known to the community. If you have places in mind where you would love to leave a stack of the joyful courage podcast postcards, shoot me an email [email protected] and send me your address, and I will send you some postcards that would be fantastic. And as I mentioned, I mentioned the live in love with joyful courage community. So that is a Facebook group, and it's a place where people get support, people get celebrated. We share their it's a really safe space for whatever it is that you're going through. It's a place where you can turn to like minded, kind, understanding parents who are happy to support you. I post about my offers in the podcast in that group as well, and anybody is invited to join us, so check it out on Facebook. I also big call to action. So in a little over a week, I am starting the third round of the joyful courage 10, which is a free program, a 10 day program for parents to get our head on straight before these long days of summer take us in. Right? So the joyful courage 10, it's it's like a boot camp. It's like a reset, a restart. It is an opportunity for you to get really intentional and really curious and purposeful in planning the summer that you want to have. And I don't mean like, where are you going to go and what vacations are you going to take, but I'm really talking about how you be this summer, how you be in relationship with yourself, with your kids, with your partner, with your neighbors. How are you going to be this summer in a way that really influences how it feels, right? And there's a lot of things that give us anxiety as we think of those long days of summer, right? How do we maintain, you know, helping out around the house. How do we keep them off their screens? There's so many hours in the day. How do we navigate our kids being bored? How do we, you know, I mean, fill in the blank, right? We all have that initial unless you're a teacher. All the teachers out there shout out, thank you. Thank you for your service. We know that you love the summer, but those of us that are parents are like, Oh, great. Now what am I supposed to do? So this is what you're supposed to do. Join the joyful courage 10 community, and it's just 10 days. It's 10 days, short emails each day, a short Facebook Live that will ground you into your work, your internal work of being the parent you want to be, and a community that will be with you every step of the way. So check that out at joyful courage.com/jc. 10, there will be a link in the show notes. Special thanks today and every day to my awesome podcast editor, Chris Mann at pod shaper, he does an excellent job of splicing together my show so that it sounds good coming into your ears. Thank you so much, Chris and my administrative assistant, who I love. This is new, and we are figuring it out. Anna Proctor, thank you. Thank you for. The show notes, thank you for being a supporter of me and the show and helping me schedule some things and all of your amazing ideas. Just wanted to shout out some love to my sweet Anna and to all of you that listen each week. Thank you. Thank you for all of your feedback, any email message posts that I see that is in reference to the podcast, just makes me feel so excited and so good and so validated. I love doing this work for you. I love putting these shows together for you. I am so so so grateful that you find value in all of it. So thank you, listeners, and if you're a new listener, welcome. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the community. If you loved today's show, guess what? Good news, there's like over 100 other shows of mine that you can peruse, and I promise you, anyone that you pick, you're gonna be glad you listen to so friends, have a beautiful, Beautiful week, and I'll see you again next Week.

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