539: Talking about screens (again) with Julietta Skoog

In this context, I think that it is the courage to go against the grain because we have so much pressure with our neighbors, our friends, the media, the social media, the pressure from our kids.  I think it’s the courage to know you’re the expert of your child.  You know what they need.  You know what your values are.  You don’t need anybody else telling you.  Just the courage to listen to yourself as a parent; you know what your child needs.  I think the joyful part is, my God, we HAVE TO HAVE FUN with this!  Lighten up!  Get in there with your kid and find the fun, that’s my little tagline.  Find the joy.  I think when we think about how, if you feel discouraged, if you feel really like, “Where do I start?”  In Positive Discipline, we say, “Enjoy the child.”  That’s actually the first step.  Maybe you just start there and just reconnect with the joy that you have for your kiddo.  Then you can deal with the screens down the road.  

Resources:

The Art of Connected Parenting Series 

Wait Until 8th 

Joyful Courage Episode 4: All About Family Meetings with Julietta Skoog 

Joyful Courage Episode 313: The Basics of Family Meetings 

Positive Discipline Family Meetings 

Opal 

The Battle for Your Time: Exposing the Costs of Social Media | Dino Ambrosi | TEDxLagunaBlancaSchool

Sproutable

Coaching with Julietta 

Julietta’s Membership Group  

Transcription

[00:00:00] Casey O'Roarty: [Music] Hey listeners, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast, a place for you to hopefully feel seen and heard as we talk about all the things that come with the season of parenting adolescence. Parenting teens is messy, no doubt. And when we remember that our kids are growing through what they're going through and we are too, things can start to feel okay.
[00:00:26] We can have faith and believe that everything will be okay. I am Casey O'Rourke, I'm your host. I am a positive discipline lead trainer, a parent coach, and the adolescent lead at Sproutable. I have two young adult kids of my own and have been in the trenches just like you. I love supporting families. I work one on one with parents all over the world and run a thriving membership program.
[00:00:49] Speaking of the Living Joyful Courage membership program, doors are opening for new members January 1st. I would love for you to consider taking part in it. We currently have 40 members, many of which are in their second or third year. We do twice monthly group calls, quarterly one on one calls, office hours, and we have an active community forum.
[00:01:10] These are real parents moving through real challenges, showing up vulnerably and feeling the love and support. From a like minded community. This is my favorite way to support parents. And I want you to check it out. Go to besproutable. com slash L J C. And before January 1st, you can join the wait list.
[00:01:29] And get early access to enrollment. Again, that is besproutable. com slash LJC for more information and to enroll. Doors open January 1st. Thank you for listening to my little promo. Let's get onto today's show.
[00:01:45] [Music] Hey listeners, welcome back to the podcast. Last podcast of 2024. Last interview. It is appropriate that my last. is with my sister from another mister, my friend and colleague, Julietta Skoog. I know you all know Jules, but I'm going to read her bio anyway. She is a certified positive discipline trainer with an education specialty degree in school psychology and a master's degree in school counseling with over.
[00:02:20] 20 years of experience helping families in schools and homes. She draws from her real life practical experience working with thousands of students with a variety of needs and her own three kids to parent coaching, bringing a unique ability to translate research, child development, and positive discipline principles into everyday parenting solutions.
[00:02:40] Her popular keynotes, speeches, classes, and workshops have been described as rejuvenating, motivating, and inspiring. I love her. And I'm so glad that I get to welcome you back to the pod.
[00:02:53] Julietta Skoog: Hi. Hi friends. Do I inspire you? You
[00:02:57] Casey O'Roarty: inspire the hell out of me. Every time I do interviews with you and you all listeners, you hear me say this, you hear me say, I wish you had been my parent coach when my kids were little.
[00:03:08] Cause yeah, you do inspire me. You do inspire me every day. I love you and I'm so grateful to have you in my life. And as I thought about, you know, last show of the year, I had this idea. I had many ideas, like wrapping it up. Where have we been this year through Sproutable? Where have we been this year? Like, what were the big news stories?
[00:03:31] What are the issues that have come up? And as I was trying to kind of hone in on an outline for us, what kept coming up for me is the one thread that has followed me through this entire year with parents, with my own personal experience, and really for many years, we're going to talk about screens. We're going to close out the year talking about the bane of all of our existence, which is.
[00:04:00] Screens and specifically the phones. And I feel like this is actually a really good time to do this because one. We're just wrapping up this holiday season. My guess is a lot of parents finally gave in and perhaps bought the first phone. I know I bought the first new phone for Ian just a couple days ago.
[00:04:23] I feel like it's this good timing around this concept of New Year's resolution and restart and starting again. Um, I had a funny conversation with Ian about screens that I want to talk about. I want to talk about all of you parents out there and more and more often as I talk to parents of younger teens, Jules, I'm hearing.
[00:04:44] Yeah, we haven't yet. And I'm always like, oh, good job, you know, and I'm hearing people say, yeah, our group of friends or the parents in our neighborhood, like people are really starting to band together and say, no, we're going to wait and we're going to wait together collectively, which is so exciting. And also the topic that I love talking to you about, because I feel like you have superpowers around this, which is firmness.
[00:05:12] And especially when it feels like our kids have this really intense emotional attachment to their screens and, and so much so that even bringing it up can feel like we're literally stabbing them with a knife, like, whoa. So anyway, that's my plan. You've heard it here first, Jules. That's my pleasure.
[00:05:33] Julietta Skoog: I did.
[00:05:34] You really did just hear it all. I had no idea what we were talking about when I logged in with you. So now I'm up to speed. I mean, I was thinking about how we launched this year, last year at this time, doing our art of, um,
[00:05:48] Casey O'Roarty: Connected Parenting,
[00:05:50] Julietta Skoog: Connected Parenting podcast series and, you know, really laying the solid foundation and all the principles and our origin stories and, um, And I think I bring that up because it all, all roads lead to this, right?
[00:06:05] The screens are the big deal. It's like, it's where it all kind of comes out, you know? And so I think sometimes people have those origin stories of their own parenthood and because this technology is a new terrain, we're drawing from our experiences. Maybe it's like, well, feeling certain guilt or certain like, you know, ways that we want to swing so far from the way that we were raised.
[00:06:29] And so, so places like. It, it lands in that, in that screen arena with the way that we respond to that, you know? So, um, yeah. And I was just thinking as you were speaking about this idea of like, oh, around the holidays, how we tend to cave or, you know, it's, yeah. All the things that are coming up around, um, the fact that for me.
[00:06:55] It is also this dance between, and we'll talk about it, you know, I'm the early years lead and the elementary parent coach, right? And I'm still coaching parents around screen stuff. It's so prevalent, of course.
[00:07:07] Casey O'Roarty: And
[00:07:07] Julietta Skoog: then as a parent now with a tween and a teen, I'm in the, I have my parent hat on and drawing from my, you know, experience with the littles and trying to Really be thoughtful.
[00:07:20] I'm like, I'm trying to have a long range plan here. I'm not trying to just shoot from the hip, you know, and I also am trying to be realistic and really grow with technology. I'm not trying to just put my head in the sand and be like, no, you're not going to have it. And then suddenly, okay, now you can have it, you know, and then really not know what's going on.
[00:07:38] So I really am. I'm walking the walk with all the parents out there too.
[00:07:42] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And it's so interesting because now mine are out of the house. And I've been watching Rowan, my 21 year old, in her dance with technology. Like every once in a while she'll say, she just gets off of social media. She's so funny.
[00:07:56] She was off of it for a couple months and then she was back on Instagram. And I was like, so how does it feel? And her first response was, well, my fans are really glad I'm back. Which I thought was such a kick in the pants. And, you know, watching how she uses her, Watching how she uses Instagram. It's really like stories and it's her being like, look at me.
[00:08:20] I'm reaching for my goals. I'm studying like today. I'm taking this, this, this, and this test. It's such an interesting, like what she's choosing to put out into her little micro world. And then, but she definitely is aware. of social media. I mean, cause that's a lot of what we're talking about, right? That's a lot.
[00:08:41] That's the problem. I mean, we just had our business meeting today and both of us were like, do we have to? But then I have Ian who's in his first year out and for some, there's something happening with his screen time on app on his phone. And so I'll say like, Hey, how's your screen time? Because that's what we do in our house as far as the long game.
[00:09:02] Right? The long game being, I want my kids to launch out into the world, and I want them to be uncomfortable with their screen use. I want them to have, like, a physical experience of, ugh, I've kind of been looking at this a lot, this is gross, like, let me check in on myself. I want them to think, like, oh, I'm going to get that.
[00:09:21] Like, I have an app on my phone that literally shuts things down during certain times of the day, because I need that. And so You know, his screen time app was going haywire and he's like, I don't know because it says I'm on 24 hours a day and that's not correct, which I know it's not correct. So it's something in the back end.
[00:09:40] That's wonky. But we were at the Verizon store and I was talking to the young man. He was probably 30 and we were talking about and I said, Well, you know, my point with screen time is I just want him to be able to look and see like, Oh, it's been a. five hours today, or it's been two hours today. I want him to have access to that information so that he can make a judgment call, right?
[00:10:03] That's kind of the long game. And so how do we, so the conversation really is about while they're with us, how do we create a culture in our homes where we're developing this self awareness and normalizing this like personal check in so that, yeah, when they make it out in the world, They carry that with them,
[00:10:24] Julietta Skoog: right?
[00:10:24] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think, I mean, you bring up a great point which is like, social, there's, there's different buckets now within technology that we're talking about. The whole social media piece. There's the whole addiction piece. Which overlaps. Which absolutely overlaps, you know. I mean, for me, there's also the safety and security piece that goes along with, social media, right?
[00:10:46] Casey O'Roarty: Of like, I'm in the know with my friends. Do you mean like predators?
[00:10:52] Julietta Skoog: Yeah. Well, I just watched you. I don't know if you watched 60 minutes. That's like our, we watched that on Sunday nights and with the family. Do you watch that as a family? We do. God bless you. But only, I mean, Joss will be like, okay, let's see what the topics are.
[00:11:06] Vi, of course, because you know Vi, just loves to do the opening monologue and has, and has like memorized all their names. And so then she likes the stories too, but, but anyway, there was a piece last night that about AI now. So this is where I was going to say, now there's this whole other bucket, right? We didn't have AI.
[00:11:23] five years ago, where they're taking any picture that's been posted on the internet. I was like, I turned to John, I was like, do you think that's like public accounts, private accounts? Like, what is it? And there's actual, there's like many, I mean, multiple sites that allow you take that picture and then undress that picture.
[00:11:44] And I'm like, how? Yes. Did you say undress that picture? Yes. And there is one, you have to watch the episode. And then there's like one One face, or one, I'm sorry, one, like, web, you know, website thing that's just like, are you 18? You can't, the other person has to have their consent. All these things. Okay.
[00:12:04] Agree. That's it. Then you're in. I mean, so there's that part too. I think for me, that's like the whole AI thing, and I'm not anti AI either, you know, but like that adds a whole, just another level of me not understanding technology, you know. Right. Um, yeah. So there's that part. And then there's just like the fact itself of like the way, yeah, the, the social wiring, you know, in kids away from the actual social experiences that are also really important for the brains.
[00:12:32] Yeah.
[00:12:33] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And I think there's, you know, so I'm thinking about you listener, I'm thinking about the listeners who are like, Oh God, I'm super scared. I haven't gone there yet. So you're looking for information today around like, how do we go there when it's time to go there? And you get to decide when it's time to go there.
[00:12:49] First of all, Julietta and I aren't going to tell you here's when you should do it. However, we both really appreciate and support the wait till eight movement. Correct. Do we do that? Great. Great. Yeah. Not eight years old, everyone.
[00:13:02] Julietta Skoog: That's what I mean. I think, yeah, I would say yes. And for me, we have a conversation or just it's sort of now known in our house that it is.
[00:13:14] Phones are a privilege, and we could talk about even the difference between iPads and phones. I mean, I think now, right, right, or a little, or an iPod. Rowan
[00:13:21] Casey O'Roarty: had
[00:13:21] Julietta Skoog: an
[00:13:21] Casey O'Roarty: iPod for, I don't know, she basically had a phone.
[00:13:24] Julietta Skoog: And you know what, she used to take the old iPod and you could connect it to the wireless, and then she could say face and pretend like she had one.
[00:13:31] Even though she didn't have a phone, that was like a little heartbreaking for us. But there is that part too, where it's like, are we talking about a phone? iPad? Are we talking about the messaging system? And I do, I have found, this is just me as a parent, not as a parent coach, but I actually did appreciate having, and I do because my middle does not have a phone yet.
[00:13:48] She's in the middle of seventh grade, that using the iPad to be able to practice messaging, right? They need to know what, how you message with friends, how you include, not exclude, what that, I mean, there's so much nuance within that and skill building. And to your point, how long am I on, right? I've got my seven and a half year old.
[00:14:07] That's, that's the lesson that we're working on right now is building the trust of you have your one hour. And are you, how are you going to know when the hour is up? And when you go over that hour, because we're both checking, it's part of that practice, then we take the break the next day. weekend day, cause she only has it on the weekends.
[00:14:25] And then we try again the following week. We reset the brain, you know, try. So those little pieces talk about the firmness. I don't mess around, you know, and then building into the phone. So my point for you, you saying like there's listener who's saying, OK, I'm haven't gone there yet. How do I build into it?
[00:14:41] So we are now in this year leading up to Getting the phone. I've talked about it is a privilege. Privilege comes with responsibility. So how are you showing us that you're responsible enough to handle it? And it's been pretty cute these last few months where I'll be like, pretty responsible, huh? Like she'll do something else.
[00:14:58] Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. She's like, pretty responsible, huh? Have a phone, right? And we're like, totally. You're rocking it. You know, I mean, I think, but it is, it's like, it's all these pieces. It's right. And with your grades, are you keeping up with your responsibilities around the house?
[00:15:12] Are you not being an asshole to people? Like, you know, what are the pieces that you are really showing holistically that can handle this privilege? You know,
[00:15:30] Casey O'Roarty: what I love about the picture you're painting is providing a small on ramp into being able to show responsibility versus like, here's everything show us that you're responsible. And I love that what you said too around, you know, that opportunity to practice before it is a little bit more. And, you know, I like to think about scaffolding, you know, when you're creating a building, the more built the building gets, the less scaffolding that's needed around the building.
[00:16:03] And the same is true with our kids. And that doesn't mean that Vi in seventh grade, at the end of seventh grade, Like, okay, great, you did this practice, and now good luck with your phone, right? There continues to be scaffolding, it just now is scaffolding around a phone instead of what I'm thinking you're talking about, which is an iPad, and the messaging around that.
[00:16:25] So, yeah. So, listeners. My question to you, those of you that haven't gone there yet, how are you providing opportunities to practice? What is a baby step in for you and your family that, if this feels right for you right now, that could give your child some time before you go there to be practicing? Right.
[00:16:48] Julietta Skoog: And it's the process as a parent also, right? It's our process as a parent. Yeah. How to show up in those spaces. It'd be in collaboration because we want them to do the right thing when we're not around.
[00:16:58] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And normalize that this is something we're going to talk about. Will you, will you talk about the agreement that you have with VI?
[00:17:03] So this is a. Screen agreement pre phone in this whole, like, practice opportunity period of time.
[00:17:09] Julietta Skoog: Yeah, well, and I think there's, the other thing that surprises me sometimes is that families, they've never even had the conversation with their kids around, it's just an automatic that they have an iPad or they were, Oh,
[00:17:23] Casey O'Roarty: the iPad was a gift from grandma, a surprise gift from grandma at my house that I didn't know was coming.
[00:17:30] Yeah. Rowan racked up like 250 bucks in gems on some game. I didn't even know. Like, she kind of knew what she was doing, but she was like, The Barbie app is a
[00:17:39] Julietta Skoog: pretty big deal. Let me just tell you. The Barbie app? There is a Barbie app that's like a major deal. But I think there's a lot of families, you know, certainly that I coach that there is, there is no limit.
[00:17:51] It's at dinner. It's at, yeah. One of them, I died. They literally, they named it. It was like a member of their family that, that I had was around, you know? So I think there's also that part where I think step one, you talk about a baby step, it's just having that, it's just actually sitting down and having a conversation for kids who otherwise, how would they know?
[00:18:09] How would they know that actually there are supposed to be some guardrails around it? How are they supposed to know that it's directly tied to their brain development? Like I think that's the part too where sometimes we expect kids just to have this like incredible willpower and they can't. It's just too much for the brain.
[00:18:25] It's like they really, it's, and I say that if they do mess up, if they do get over, if they do, they've snuck it into their room, they've, tiptoed in after you've been asleep and unplugged it from the middle place. It's like, well, yeah, you know, it's that precious, right? Well, thinking about our
[00:18:44] Casey O'Roarty: own, like my own thoughts about like, okay, tomorrow my screen time is going to be this amount of time and my, I'm going to stay off this particular app and I'm going to, and I, and I'm 51 years old.
[00:18:55] Julietta Skoog: Yeah, exactly. So, our baby step then is with an agreement. So this was, and I think when you can have agreements when they're little, like I'm looking at my agreement that I have with my seven year old when she just got her first I've had, she had had one, she just kind of shared mine for a long time, but, but, you know, you can, you can see it, right?
[00:19:13] This is what it might look like when you're seven. So
[00:19:16] Casey O'Roarty: everyone, I'm looking at this, it's clearly Leona has done the writing and
[00:19:22] Julietta Skoog: I love it. And it's really quick. Right. It's one hour on non school days. We talked it through. Okay. What about games? Games count as that. What about shows? Shows count as that.
[00:19:30] What about Duolingo? I freaking love Duolingo. Guess what? Duolingo is like extra. Duolingo doesn't count as your hour, but you got to ask first. So then there's the ask first section, right? Like music. Of course. We want our kids to listen to music, like FaceTiming with. It's an uncle's and grandma's. I'd love you to spend time with those people, right?
[00:19:49] Like, you know, how about on the plane? Absolutely. Right. How about, um, you know, playdates? Never. Right. She writes never on playdates. That's the deal. You know, we signed it. So when you start little, you know, then it grows into now my tween, you know, agreement and same thing where I just get to use the positive discipline tools that we have around it.
[00:20:10] Curiosity around, you know, asking around connection first, you know, correction. And so then we have these ones, which is, you know, typed out and we talk through the things and what about, you know, what are some
[00:20:26] Casey O'Roarty: of the things that you, yeah. Talk about what? Yeah. Like, yeah.
[00:20:29] Julietta Skoog: So ours is that on weekdays. It's actually good for me to review too, right?
[00:20:33] It's perfect. plug in at eight. Okay. So there's many times when she's coming back after eight from soccer or whatever, you know, but this is on weekdays. And then the one thing that we talked about was like this social connection. And I know with tweens and teens, I mean, it's their pack mentality. It does feel like survival versus thriving.
[00:20:54] And so I know she's going to be connected to the, to the friends. And John is really good about this too. Like just bringing in that. reminder about how important the social connection is. And so there's the 10 minutes before school that she can check on texts because she has two friends that come over in the morning.
[00:21:12] And so she's like, well, I want to make sure if any plans have changed or whatever. But we also wanted to balance. We talked through that feeling. I don't know what you talk about with your kids case, but like that feeling like we do as grownups, where the first thing you do is look at your phone when you wake up.
[00:21:26] You peel your eyeballs open, it's like you look at your phone, right? And that's not great. I do that though. We all do. So, how do we sort of create some space around that? Even Leona on the Saturdays, she comes toddling in, you know, can I have my iPad? And I'm like, you can say, good morning, mama. You can give me the snuggles first and then you get the iPad, right?
[00:21:46] Casey O'Roarty: Even though it's I mean, okay, let's just pause here. Isn't it so weird that this is the freaking world we live in? It's so bizarre. It's like We're in
[00:21:56] Julietta Skoog: a new world. It is a totally new world. And so that's what I'm seeing is we sort of, we do have to adapt to that, you know? And so, yeah, we talked about that.
[00:22:04] We talked about the 30 minutes after school, but then we also said, you know, it's after your routine is done. That's also the firmness.
[00:22:11] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah,
[00:22:11] Julietta Skoog: not much. You finish your homework, clean up your room, you take that disgusting lunch out of your backpack and put it in the sink for God's sake. And then like you get ready for your whatever sport or thing you have.
[00:22:25] And then yeah, get on your way. You know? Yeah. Then we talk about weekends and then, which is, you know, pretty basic. And then we said we have an hour in the morning and then we have an hour. On the weekends after there's been a, so we call it a quiet time or genius hour where it's like you're really spending an hour working on your project, doing your homework, like learning something new, learning something new, doing a little duolingo or nap or nap.
[00:22:50] I'm like that, Russ, that's good for your brain too, right? That's usually what I choose. Then. Then you have, then you can have the iPad again for another hour. So, and then anything, and then we just said anything else with permission, like Duolingo music, you know, texting, not in that 10 minute mark. And she's so good about that.
[00:23:07] Like, I'm just like, just ask first and just the communication. Cause that's also a skill that we want to have as grownups is communicating why I'm having a conversation with you. And now suddenly I'm texting, right. It's like, right. saying that, like saying, Oh, hey, I just, I forgot. I'm going to have this.
[00:23:22] We're trying to coordinate these plans. Can I get into text my friends? Absolutely. And I always say, absolutely. Thank you for asking. And then, yeah. And then we, then we got clarity. This is also the firmness. We got clarity on what is the routine. So what is the expectation of like, what needs to be done before you are on your iPad?
[00:23:38] So then when, because she's a human and of course, you know, it's not going to, then I'm not like, make your bed. Do your, you know? Yeah. Like your backpack, like I'm to the lunch, if you practice piano, I'm just like, Hey babe, where are you? If you're on the iPad, I'm like, Oh great. You finished your routine.
[00:23:55] Will you show me? Like, I'm just looking at, let's look at this together. Where are you? And then suddenly she'll be like, Oh, I forgot. Great. I'm not like, how dare you forgot? You know, it's like, yeah, she's human. Me too. I'm just like, okay, cool. That's it. So we're in it together. We're like using the tool together, you know, not as like gotcha or gotcha now.
[00:24:14] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Right. And again, remember everyone, this is with a kiddo. This is training. You're taking time for training here with this one.
[00:24:23] Julietta Skoog: Yeah. So then when we got the phone, then with my high schooler, you know, when she got it back in, I was just looking at, this was back in 2022, this was her original one. We update it, but we got to really talk through what are our, what are our agreements?
[00:24:37] You know,
[00:24:38] Casey O'Roarty: did she get social media with her in? No,
[00:24:42] Julietta Skoog: that was one of our agreements was no social media until, um, high school. That's why Joseph's so freaking healthy and well, mentally capable. Now she's like, run the Instagram account for the like football varsity team. And I'm sort of like, I don't know. I mean, I think she feels pride in that, but I'm also like, and that's more time on there too, you know, but we did say, and we said, let's, when we open it together, we needed her to give us an orientation on it that we could.
[00:25:12] And then I, I think this piece too, around like really talking through around like, just bullying, teasing, like. What do you do when friends are over? How does that feel when you have friends? It would just drove her nuts when she'd be with friends and they were always on their phones. Like, they're just being, bringing up the mindfulness piece around that, but honestly, we have no issues.
[00:25:35] I don't ever have to be like, get off your phone or check the time or, I mean, I feel like now I'm like, Oh, I guess I should do random checks, but I don't, I just, I feel like we got to a place where then. There's trust and responsibility around that. I really have not had to. I'm saying this as a someone who's had thousands of students and also, oh, all three of my kids are totally different and I'm just saying this about this one particular kid.
[00:25:56] It's going to be a whole other ballgame with.
[00:26:01] Casey O'Roarty: I can't wait. I can't wait. I'm really looking forward to Forget it. seven years from now. Yeah. When we can talk about I'm well aware. the teenage Leona.
[00:26:09] Julietta Skoog: Yeah, I'm not pretending like this is gonna be. Well, this
[00:26:12] Casey O'Roarty: is what I feel like when I talk to you about stuff like this, Jules.
[00:26:14] And I mean, this is a total compliment and hopefully it comes out that way. You're kind of a North Star. Like, you're kind of the, your experience is like, let's all point our compass in that direction. Yeah. Because I know, I know myself, and many people, all the people basically that I work with, are like, Yeah, that's the utopia.
[00:26:35] Like, what about real teenagers? I know you have real, I know that your kids are absolutely real and amazing. But, you know, did you ever have, like, the pressure that parents are feeling From there, like I had one gal that I talked to in an explore call who was like, my daughter has been mad at me for the last, like mad at me, pissed at me for the last nine months because she put on full court press to get a phone and I have stayed at a firm no.
[00:27:04] And then going back to like our own beliefs and patterns and experiences around perhaps like rejection and, you know, on just having to navigating, wanting to connect, wanting to feel acceptance and belonging. And then you've got one of your kids who's basically a walking middle finger because you won't do just this one simple thing.
[00:27:22] Like it would be so, it feels like it would be so easy to fix this. If maybe we should just get them. a phone, how, what is your advice for that parent? Cause I know they exist. I mean, it is, first of all, everyone just stop buying your kids phones.
[00:27:44] Julietta Skoog: Talk about this a lot with positive discipline is like, is the message of love coming through?
[00:27:49] Yeah. And I think with the no, with the no, because I think it's just that I, it's that connection before correction. It's, I love you. So much. I care so much about your potential. And sometimes I do the little wink wink kind of joke where I'm like, you're, you know, your humanity is only hope, like, you're brave, you're the generation, like, I have to protect your brain, like, your potential is so incredible.
[00:28:10] Like, yeah, so often I would say that with them, I would just be like, Oh my gosh, like, you are brilliant. Like, you have so much potential. And I just would feel terrible if I did something that got in the way of that growth. Like you're bigger, those long term range things, you know? And then the other advice that I would give to, you know, to parents.
[00:28:29] So one is just, if you've decided that, then you've decided that. And actually your oldest matters because then they are like over my dead freaking body is my little sister or brother getting a phone before me. So once you've set that, then you get to establish that. You know that. Yeah. Timeline, because they will hold you to it.
[00:28:47] They won't let you do it any earlier with your other kids, but, um, but the other advice is that I do feel like then we have to look deeper at like where they are, so where they are struggling without it, you know, and is it the social pieces and you actually do have to get more creative to help them bridge some of those social pieces in creating and facilitating and doing more driving or, you know, offering more.
[00:29:12] Like, I really. just work hard at having the friends come over and having the sleepovers and making sure if something is happening that I can help really coordinate it because a lot of times there's that part that they get left out of is the coordination of stuff. And so then that means I've got to stay up on my relationships with those other people's parents too.
[00:29:31] Just like we know what's in the know. And, and then I think, I mean, you know, just recently, I think I was, I think I showed this with you Casey, but like we had, I mean, I was like sobbing. I mean, she was, she had been She wasn't sure if she was left out or not because there's these group messages. But if somebody has an Android, there's that part, then you're not part of this group text.
[00:29:53] And so then there had been an invite, but she was like, it's such a big one. She doesn't know if people know that she's not in it because person, she's totally part of this group and is part of these other things. But on this particular, and, and for me as a parent to have to sit with her discomfort, you know, and this is a kid that usually a lot of stuff rolls off her back.
[00:30:12] It was a lot of my scale building or like my own growth just to really trust that she was going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I had to just hold and just say, I'm so, this is so painful. It's so, it feels so unfair, you know, especially cause there could be an easy solution and I'm just so sorry that you're hurting right now.
[00:30:32] And I just love you so much. And I wanted to go into the long monologue about the why we don't do it and you know, all this stuff again, but I just think there's those pieces too. where you also just have to allow this space for them to really feel like this sucks. And I feel left out, you know, and you've got to hear that.
[00:30:50] You've got to let them vent to you and listen and not take it personally or feel guilty or whatever. Just be like, yeah, that's it. That is so hard. Yeah. I totally agree. Yes, I believe
[00:31:01] Casey O'Roarty: you, you know, yeah, and I think this conversation is such a illustration of how layered it all is. So this is what I'm going to pull out of what you just said.
[00:31:10] One is, you know, especially thinking about this mom that I had the call with, whose daughter was so pissed. Like, what are they actually struggling with? Like, yeah, there's the, the phone is an easy thing to grab onto and to be like, if you just give me a phone. Right? Everything would, in my life, would be better, but what are they actually struggling with?
[00:31:31] The piece around they're going to be okay. They are going to be okay. They're growing through what they're going through. I love that phrase from our friend, Chris Willard and our work of being with their discomfort, which is so hard. It's so hard. And yet, like, thinking about your story with Vi, an opportunity also, like, well, how could you get to the bottom of this?
[00:32:02] What might you do? What could it sound like to have a conversation with your friends to kind of clear the air that may not even need to be cleared because it was as simple as it was an Android group chat that, you know, didn't work through into her iPad or whatever. So there's so much richness inside of this, but I think Like a major, major, like, as I'm, and this is just coming up for me as I'm talking about it.
[00:32:26] I think probably the most important thing for parents is really like calming down and detangling from their kids emotional experience. Like, I think if we could all do that. Parenting would be so much, and I'm saying this to you, I'm saying it to myself, like, Oh, that's right. It'd be so much easier.
[00:32:45] Julietta Skoog: You know, the long term, like, I'm just looking at so many grown ups right now, and of course the holidays bring out that part too, but like, so many grown ups who cannot be uncomfortable.
[00:32:55] And so, That part also that when I'm looking at very unhealthy behaviors and habits and disorders that grown ups have as a result of spending an entire life never having to feel. Just numbing and avoiding and, you know, either being enabled by the other grown ups. Or co dependent. Like dating or co dependency.
[00:33:22] People pleasing. People pleasing. So, so I have, I hold that right as a psychologist, like I'm also seeing that through this lens. So then when I'm with my actual kids, I am like, awesome, great, another chance for you to practice and grow that muscle. You're getting so strong, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I just, we had this amazing, um, Bat Mitzvah on Saturday night.
[00:33:42] I have to say, my God, the Bat and Bar Mitzvah season is so fun with these ages that I'm in, you know. Um, we got to go and I was just talking to like sort of a group of kids around this and with their parents and we were all like, yes, like we, like, it's okay as teenagers to feel uncomfortable. Guess what?
[00:34:01] That's okay. You, and we really meant that with like, we're with you guys. Like you are going to grow up to be such amazing humans. Cause you're going to be okay. And one of the kids, one of the other teenagers are little. We never can look at his mom. He's like, what? I can be uncomfortable as he's like holding his phone.
[00:34:14] You know, the, the screen, she's looking at him like with a wink, wink, like really put it down, you know? But it's like that part too, where I think if we can talk to our kids about our bigger why, like why we are doing this, we don't just have a random, and I know parents do, and we talk about research and all this stuff, but like, I think joining with them around these bigger things.
[00:34:35] That they're growing within themselves. And I think, you know, I certainly with my oldest, because I have three, she is teaching me, right? We are walking together through these firsts for all of us. And so I am also trying really hard to say, tell me your reason why. Tell me why we do this together. Like I am open also, not necessarily to negotiation, quote unquote, but like learn and grow together around some of this stuff.
[00:35:02] Casey O'Roarty: Right. Because we weren't teenagers with this. piece woven into the fabric of our experience.
[00:35:10] Julietta Skoog: Yeah.
[00:35:18] Casey O'Roarty: So let's talk about those older kids, right? Because like I mentioned at the top, we're at this place in the year we have. I mean, it's, it's funny. I feel like there's two new years. I feel like September is a new year. Because of the school, the school setting, but then I, and then it's like, okay, okay, okay, maybe I didn't do all the things I meant to do in September, but I get another chance because that's really New Year's, it's January.
[00:35:40] But, so, you know, whatever you feel, you know, you guys all get to be with whatever you think about the whole New Year's resolution thing, but if, and if you're feeling like, oh, yeah, things have, we've, phones have been in our life and things are, not okay and could be reined in, use the energy of this time of year, use it to reign some things in, use it to revisit or create an agreement with your kiddos.
[00:36:12] And I love the example that you gave. I mean, cause I am someone who, you know, once my kid, first of all, Rowan, and I've said this before on the pod, Rowan was like, wouldn't even let me put my finger on her phone, which sounds. Like, even as I say that out loud, I'm like, she wouldn't let me, like, but I was the mom.
[00:36:31] I was the mom. I mean, but truly she was so weird about her phone and we've had conversations since, like, what was that about? And she honestly is like, I do not know because I wasn't doing weird stuff with my phone. I, but the idea of you holding it made me so deeply uncomfortable. Well, we said there was that
[00:36:49] Julietta Skoog: we did say, I mean, we're like, when we originally said this, it was a random check anytime.
[00:36:53] And the only time I honestly did. Thank God I did because I happened it was she was trying to describe this It's kind of really toxic situation that was happening socially and I was like, well, let me see, let me see the, let me see the text exchange. And I could see that kind of uncomfortable. But when I looked at it and saw it in print, I was like, Whoa, I mean, yeah, I got to get involved here, you know?
[00:37:18] And so I think there's that part where, um, when you have this opportunity, if you feel like, okay, we've never had agreement, we've never, I feel like, or we did, we said it And they walk all over these boundaries, you know, of being plugged in behind. Yeah, we get that chance to reset. I mean, I think that's what I love about, You know, I've referenced positive discipline a lot, I feel like, but like, yeah, when we really can lean on those principles of solution focused without blame.
[00:37:43] Yes. I, I see this in my young parents, I mean, you know, parents of young children too. It's like, guess what? Nobody's holding a gun to your head. Like you get to say, Hey guys, guess what? Like we've really gotten off track with bedtime, with phones, with screens, with agreements, like no blame, no shame. Just like, let's move forward on some new solutions.
[00:37:59] Yeah. What's our plan moving forward? Like. Really, I know it feels like, oh God, then I have to get us all together, nobody's in the same room, you gotta just do it, there's never a perfect time, there's never a, you know, calm, whatever, Saturday morning when you're all, it's like, you gotta just rip off the band aid.
[00:38:16] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah, you gotta do it, and, and I think, you know, bad news is, or real news is that there's no like magical agreement that suddenly screens no longer are driving you crazy. I mean, there's things that can smooth out the edges, which I believe agreements do that and support with that. It's like going to the gym.
[00:38:37] I mean, it's not like, okay, I've been going to the gym consistently for six months, and now I don't have to go anymore. Like I still have to. I still have to haul my ass over there and do the things and some days I'm better at it than others and some days it does feel easy and I am in flow and some days it's like uh.
[00:38:55] Julietta Skoog: Totally. And I think that's, that's the part as a parent that I, that is my gut check. Is this a problem? Right? I mean, it's like, aren't the grades good and they're helpful around the house? And when other grownups come over, they are. talking to them and making eye contact and they're not on their phone and they're not, you know, then I'm like, I don't care.
[00:39:17] I don't care that you're plugging your phone in at nine and then you're going to watch, you know, Gilmore Girls on your iPad until you fall asleep. I really don't care anymore. Right. I used to, when she was two, the thought of my child having a TV in their room and falling asleep to that, I would have thought, oh my God.
[00:39:31] Now it's like,
[00:39:32] Casey O'Roarty: who has a TV in their room? They all have personal computers. Now I'm like, what episode are
[00:39:35] Julietta Skoog: you on? You know, like, yeah, it's. Yeah. Right. Who has a TV? Right. Exactly. There are pieces where I also think we have to just look at the, at like, is it a problem? You know? But is it a problem? It might be.
[00:39:48] If there's a pattern and you're feeling resentful, or it's affecting sleep, grades, relationships, You know, I mean, all those things. Then you are the grown up. Be the leader. Like, really, be the leader. You know, they need that. They need you to step in for the guardrail and with that confidence and say, we've gotten off track.
[00:40:09] I mean, I love having the family meetings. space because then I get to just pop it onto the agenda and have it in a really neutral space and we've said compliments and we've created, you know, a little bit of an air of safety and connection and, you know, within a brainstorming piece, not just like, I want to be mad at you, you know, like what's a good solution.
[00:40:30] And so I do think that can also be helpful for families. Like if you don't have a, uh, weekly or biweekly or even, you know, every couple of weeks, like outside of a family dinner, you know, really like a space where you come together and just check in on stuff. I think that is a great first step because that actually builds skills for communication and equity, you know, agency and voice also, and where you get to model some of these pieces.
[00:40:57] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. And we have a couple episodes around family meetings. So I'll make sure those are, those are links are in the show notes for sure.
[00:41:04] Julietta Skoog: A couple of pieces, I will say that's on the contract. I don't think that I mentioned this is like also about, you know, purchase, like really get clear, have them say out loud, you're never going to make an online purchase.
[00:41:13] You. You have to ask first before the app. You have to answer our calls and texts as soon as possible. If I reach out to you outside of school hours, you better respond right away, right? I am not messing around on that. And then, yeah, we talk about like not lying. I mean, we just said like, hey, we're, this is, we have to have trust.
[00:41:31] We have to have trust with each other. And so we trust you. You've got to trust us that if we are asking for something, it is in your best interest. And so we're not going to lie about, you know, how are you using it or where you've been. And I
[00:41:44] Casey O'Roarty: think that the reason that you can put that in there, Jules, is because you back that up with.
[00:41:54] Curiosity with neutrality with no blame. No shame, right? Like, I think that's really important, like, because this is a sticky place for parents where it's like, okay, but now they have broken the rules. And then the language that I hear that kind of makes my heart hurt is, well, now there's no trust. Now you have to burn your trust
[00:42:17] Julietta Skoog: back.
[00:42:17] I don't have any trust in my seven year old right now. Are you kidding? Like, we're, we're at baseline, man. But it's
[00:42:23] Casey O'Roarty: also, but there's also a piece around like, could it also be that part of the reason one of the layers of sneaking or breaking a rule or not following through is that they don't trust us.
[00:42:34] Julietta Skoog: Exactly right. That's exactly right.
[00:42:36] Casey O'Roarty: And so there's, it's not a one way, it's a, it's a place to be curious. It's a place to be curious.
[00:42:42] Julietta Skoog: And that, and I think, you know, I joke with the trust around my seven year old, but like we, but it is, it starts, but she's also seven, like you shouldn't expect her to like all the things.
[00:42:52] Sneaking the candy, you know, I mean, it's, it is that part where I also, we, it's a skill also. Yeah. And it's a relationship. And so, There is that part and I think that's where we began this conversation was like some of these things are wobbly for us as adults and wobbly for us in the way that we're raised to and so we get to grow that alongside with them.
[00:43:15] It doesn't mean we have to be perfect either, you know, but when you can create something like this, you're actually making a difference. You know, and teenagers and tweens love to point out hypocrisy. I mean, that is their number one, boom, right up hypocrite. You're doing this, right? So that's where we are now on the line.
[00:43:42] Now we're in the open, you know? So I think that part where that trust can be built because you're like, guess what? I see the hypocrisy in what I'm saying and what I'm doing and what I'm modeling. And so here's where I move, trying to move closer towards you too, in this way.
[00:43:59] Casey O'Roarty: Right. And shifting out of this cat and mouse game as well.
[00:44:05] Like when I think about my kids, I'm, I feel really, I feel pretty good about their growing self awareness, whether it's The screens or substances or people in their life. Like, I want them to have the skills to look into inward and say, is this getting in my way? Right? What do I want? I want them to have thinking, actively be thinking about what do they ultimately want and how is this thing, whatever the thing is, we're talking about screens right now, but we could be talking about alcohol or weed or boyfriends, girlfriends, best friends, regardless.
[00:44:44] Is this supporting me and moving towards what I want? Or is this getting in my way? Is this slowing me down? Right? Is this keeping me stuck? I mean, ultimately, we want them in the long game to also be developing that critical thinking. And I think that screens are such an opportunity can be if we stay out of the really rigid, I make the rules, you follow them or you get punished.
[00:45:11] If we can stay out of that mindset and in this more expansive, like acknowledging the layers and the nuance and the humanness Even though the technology is technology, the users of the technology are these dynamic human beings who are only as skilled as they are, right? And so, Yeah, so use this time of year listeners, use it for yourself.
[00:45:38] What's your, what's your current pattern of behavior when it comes to screens, right? When you said, it's the first thing we do in the morning, peeling open our eyes and looking at our screen. I'm like, Oh God, yes. So how can I get, you know, how can I interrupt that? I use, there's an app called Opal. I'll just share that you can block certain apps during certain times of the day and I actually have a whole bunch of apps completely blocked where I can't even take a break from the block from like 9pm to 8am.
[00:46:08] And there are a lot of times where I'm like, oh shoot. I wish there was a workaround, but I've set it up so there isn't even a workaround.
[00:46:15] Julietta Skoog: Wow.
[00:46:15] Casey O'Roarty: And guess what? There's no situation in the world where I need to get on Facebook, life or death, after 9 p. m., right? Like, it's not like I've cut myself off and there's an emergency and I need to be there.
[00:46:29] Check my
[00:46:30] Julietta Skoog: Instagram. So, you know, there are tools. Yes. I mean, there are those tools. I mean, I think there's, and it's like that it's understanding the, the why we need to be, what else is going on, right? What else do we need to be staying so busy or, or un, That we can just sit still that we can't be with that feeling for right
[00:46:55] Casey O'Roarty: now.
[00:46:55] Oh my gosh. Yes. All the things. Oh my gosh. Um, so we basically everyone we're with you. We know it's a struggle. We're going to keep having these conversations here on the podcast because the screens aren't going away, but I really hope.
[00:47:12] Julietta Skoog: Yeah. One more thing that I just feel like, you know, as I'm growing into this high school land or whatever, I feel like these kids are awesome.
[00:47:21] You know, and I just, in general, like they're, they're good kids. They're not trying to So when people are trying to be addicted to screens, they're just trying to be connected
[00:47:31] Casey O'Roarty: to each other. You know? They're trying to live in the world that exists that they're growing into. That's
[00:47:36] Julietta Skoog: exactly right. And so I think when we can have some compassion towards that and have some trust, and I think, and if there hasn't been If there isn't, you know, then I think that's the place that we get, that's our first step then.
[00:47:49] We get to work on that part. We don't have to worry about, then don't worry about screens. Don't worry about that. You know what I mean? Like they sit thinner, get to that first space to start back. And I do think there is real hope. Like I love that. You know, I love it with littles and with my families that I coach and with, it's like we can always start again.
[00:48:09] Yeah. We can always. Yeah. You get to turn the ship. You really do, you know? And so I just, yeah, I encourage those of you out there that feel like, Oh, I feel so disconnected or I don't like the habits that our family has. I don't feel like, you know, we've just gotten on off track. Like just start with that first step of just being like, I miss you or I miss that.
[00:48:28] Like, I feel like we're not living up to our potential as a family. I say a lot to parents, like rebrand it. We've got to rebrand. And I think that's your point about like the new year. It's like, guess what? Yeah. You guys are like, rebrand your fam and be like, wait, who are we? Where are, where do we go? You know?
[00:48:45] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Julietta Skoog: We are like, let's refind ourselves like as a
[00:48:47] Casey O'Roarty: family too. Yeah. And one last resource before we close, there is this Ted talk and I'll make sure the link is in the show notes. It's this guy talking about, I don't know if he uses the language of opportunity cost, but he has all these little circles.
[00:49:03] And he's like, all these circles represent one year of your life or one month of your life. If you live to be, let's say, like 90. And here's how much time, if you, you know, if the research shows we're spending X amount of time on our phones, and if we continue to spend X amount of time on our phones, this is how much time we're going to spend sleeping.
[00:49:23] This is how much time we're going to spend eating. And then this is how much and he's filling in the circles and actually, Ian, I've talked about it on the podcast. Ian showed me this and he was like, Oh, my God, mom. And it really made a big impact on him. And so him being away at school and I see when he comes home, I'm watching his patterns and or I go to visit and I see him and his roommate and how they're just constantly looking at their phones.
[00:49:46] And I was like, What about that Ted talk? And he was like, Yeah. Yeah. That Ted Talk makes it really hard for me to be on my phone as much as I am. But it's in there, like, it's a little thing that's like, Hey, hey, hey, remember the Ted Talk, remember the Ted Talk. So, I'll put the link in the show notes.
[00:50:01] Julietta Skoog: I want to just say too, Kasey, I mean, I think, you know, recent, or just actually since our big Barcelona trip to Think Tank at the Positive Discipline Conference, we fleshed out this particular activity around And do versus don't in the context with littles, but of how important is, you know, so often we say don't, don't, don't to our kids.
[00:50:22] Don't do that. Don't be on your phone. Don't, you know, and, but it's like, then we have to also help support what they can do. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there is this part, when I think back to my teenage years, you know, dance was a huge part of my life. It was so mindful. You can't be on the phone when you're dancing.
[00:50:39] And like, thinking about all these other stuff. spaces for kids that if you do have a kid that you feel like is so, you know, only on the screens, it's like also opening up doors for how else they can be connected, other spaces where they can belong that by doing that, they're going to get in the flow in a different way.
[00:50:58] They're going to get those dopamine hits. and the endorphins and the social connectedness, you know, that might be where they need the parenting intervention, you know, instead of focusing so much on why they're on their phone. It's like, well, then find out, find what they can do, you know, and support them in that space.
[00:51:14] Yeah.
[00:51:14] Casey O'Roarty: Ah, so good. So good. So in this Context. What does joyful courage mean to you, Jules?
[00:51:21] Julietta Skoog: Joyful courage mean to me in this context, I think that it is the courage to go against the grain because we have so much pressure and, you know, with our, with our neighbors, with our friends, with the media, the social media of like the pressure from our kids.
[00:51:39] I think it's the courage to know that you are the expert. You know what they need, you know what your values are, you don't need anybody else telling you, you know, just the courage to listen to yourself as a parent, what, you know, your child needs, and I think the joyful part is like, my God, we have to have fun with this.
[00:51:59] Like lighten up, lighten up, like get in there with your kid, find the fun, as I smile, tagline right and find the joy. Like I think when we think about if you feel discouraged, if you feel really like where do I start, where is a place to start in positive discipline, we say enjoy the child. That's actually the first step.
[00:52:21] And so maybe you just start there. Just reconnect with your joy that you have for the, for your kiddo. Then you can deal with the screens down the road. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:52:27] Casey O'Roarty: Yeah. Love it. And I didn't mention this in your bio and I think everybody knows, but maybe somebody's brand new. Hi, welcome to the podcast.
[00:52:36] Where can people find you and follow your work? Well, I'm over here at Sproutable.
[00:52:40] Julietta Skoog: This is, this is our home, right, that we're in. So you can find me at besproutable. com. I'm the early years lead and the elementary lead, and I do parent coaching and I teach workshops and classes. I do a ton of work with teachers at elementary schools and preschools.
[00:52:57] I do Zoom all over the world. I'm in person doing a ton of trainings here in Seattle, and then I have our, Sweet membership group, which is I adore and is incredible and doors open in January. So be surprised.
[00:53:10] Casey O'Roarty: And
[00:53:11] Julietta Skoog: of course, on social media, wink, wink, God.
[00:53:15] Casey O'Roarty: Okay. I love you. Thank you so much for taking time to hang with me and for free flowing this whole conversation.
[00:53:22] Jewels. I adore you. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:53:24] Julietta Skoog: I got you. Thank you so much for your work in your podcast that you, I mean, this is a gift. I send it to so many of my parents, obviously all the parents in this tween and teen land and the littles too, to give them that preview. It's just a gift. Thank you for all you do.
[00:53:39] I love
[00:53:39] Casey O'Roarty: you.
[00:53:47] Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you so much to my Sproutable partners, Julietta and Alana, as well as Danielle. And Chris Mann and the team at Podshaper for all the support with getting this show out there and helping it to sound so good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages and sign up for our newsletter to stay better connected at besproutable.
[00:54:12] com. Tune back in on Monday for a brand new interview and I will be back solo with you next Thursday. Have a great day.