Eps 526:  School avoidance and school refusal with Jenell Kheriaty

What does joyful courage mean to you

I think in this context, it means having the courage – I’m going to go back to what you said earlier, to be vulnerable with your child.  It’s having the courage to show up as your authentic self and to be honest with how difficult the challenge is and at the same time balancing that with giving yourself and your child opportunities for joy and for hope.  So, making space to continue to be in community with your child – to be in relationship with them, to have moments of joy, to give them moments of hope, and to help them develop the perspective that what we’re in right now is not what we will always be in.  I’m here with you, and I’m going to love you, as you said, no matter what, and we’re going to work through this together.  We’re not always going to be here.  There will be days ahead that will be even more joyful and filled with really beautiful experiences we can’t envision right now.  I love that – joyful courage.  

Resources

Thrive Consulting & Coaching 

Joyful Courage Episode 252: An Honest Conversation with Rowan About Her Journey of Mental Health and Self Discovery 

Joyful Courage Episode 524: Insights on being a young adult with Rowan O’Roarty

Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
positive discipline, conscious parenting, school refusal, adolescent challenges, parent support, student anxiety, social anxiety, fear of failure, personal growth, professional support, alternative education, relationship building, vulnerability modeling, joyful courage, parental guidance
SPEAKERS
Theme Music, Casey O'Roarty, Jenell Kheriaty

Theme Music 00:04
[Music]

Casey O'Roarty 00:04
Hello, welcome back. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we work to keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens, this is real work, people, and when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey o'rourdy. I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at sproutable. Also mama to a 20 year old daughter and a 17 year old son. I am walking right beside you on the path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you, and I work really hard to keep it really real, transparent and authentic, so that you feel seen and supported. Today is a solo show, and I'm confident that what I share will be useful to you. Please don't forget, sharing truly is caring if you love today's show, please, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials, or text it to your friends. Together, we can make an even bigger impact on families around the globe. If you're feeling extra special, you can rate and review us over in Apple podcasts. I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome, welcome, welcome, enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:34
Welcome listeners. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to introduce you to my guest today, Janelle carriotti, Janelle is passionate about empowering parents and teens to thrive during the adolescent years. With 25 years of experience as a school leader, teacher and coach, she deeply understands the challenges faced by students, parents and educators alike. For 15 years, she served as an administrator at one of Seattle's premier private high schools, leading in areas such as curriculum, instruction, counseling, college advising, admissions, Student Leadership and Learning Resources. In her final years there, Janelle developed innovative student support protocols and parent education programs to better serve family, recognizing the increasing pressures on teens, she founded thrive, consulting and coaching with a mission to cultivate resilience, compassion and courage in the next generation, while helping families and schools create strong, supportive environments. Hi Janelle, welcome to the podcast.

Jenell Kheriaty 02:39
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah, well,

Casey O'Roarty 02:43
I am so excited to have you on the show. We recently connected around our shared passion for supporting families and adolescents, and our conversation, you know, we covered a lot in that 30 minute phone call, but our conversation really moved towards something. I'm sure that I probably brought it up because many of my parents are navigating school refusal and with your background as a school admin, I thought that this would be a really powerful conversation to revisit. So it's something that I've talked about on the podcast before, but you know, it continues to show up in the conversations in my community. How did school refusal show up in your work in schools?

Jenell Kheriaty 03:28
Yeah, I worked with a number of students and parents who were struggling with school avoidance and school refusal, and I just think that this is a prevalent issue in our schools today, and most administrators have probably had to deal with this, because I think any school across the country has students who are struggling and parents who are struggling to know how to navigate school refusal and school avoidance. So it's really evident to me right now, as I work with parents that this is an issue that spans ages. It spans schools. It spans a lot of different chains of kids and families.

Casey O'Roarty 04:07
Yeah, well, and I had my own experience with my daughter, which my listeners are familiar with, if not listen to episode 252 she came on and talked about it. I didn't know at the time that it was a thing or that it was a name for it. I just knew that my daughter was, you know, for her, it was really a intense anxiety, and, I mean, I felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants as we navigated that period of her life. Talk about the kids that you saw as struggling with school refusal?

Jenell Kheriaty 04:40
Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question, and I'm glad you asked it, because I think there's a common misconception that school avoidance and school refusal only happens to certain kinds of kids, for example, only happens to kids who are struggling with school either academically or so. Socially in some way. And in my experience, this is just not the case. I've seen it occur for kids who are very socially connected, very involved in the school, really love aspects of the school experience. I've seen it happen to kids who are highly academically motivated and really achieve in an academic way. So it can really, again, span a lot of different kinds of kids, and there's not one kind of example of the type of student who's struggling with this, and I think that's kind of demonstrates the complexity of this issue, that there's no one size fits all solution to this, because every individual case is really unique to that student and to what's going on that is underneath the school refusal. So in the case of, you know, a really high achieving student, it may be that they have tremendous pressure, either from themselves or outside, to perform, and that, you know, they miss a day because they're worried that they can't perform on a test or they're not quite ready to turn an assignment in, and so they think, well, I'll just give myself a little bit of extra time on this particular thing, and yet don't realize that in missing that day, they're then falling behind. If academics are particularly important to them, then they can start to feel more stress, both about the thing they were avoiding and about whatever it is they've missed, and pretty soon they can get stuck in a cycle of self doubt or fear about everything that they're missing, and slowly start to kind of spin into a cycle of refusing to go to school because they're afraid they can't meet some sort of expectation or standard that either they have for themselves, or they feel like someone else has for them. So that's just one example, but I think again, there is not one stereotypical type of student who's suffering with this, because it in each situation. What's underneath the school refusal? The school refusal is really just a symptom of something else going on, yeah, and that's the tricky piece, is, how do we figure out what the something else is?

Casey O'Roarty 07:31
Yeah, and I appreciate what you said, when you say that there isn't, like, you know, one size fits all. Here's how you do it. I noticed. So as I was preparing for this. I was kind of looking well, I was googling. I used the Google to see, just like what you know, because I was always like, it would be lovely if there was a formula, or if it was neat and tidy, and it's just not. And I came across this video on YouTube about that focused on the kids that are avoiding school, and it was from Australia, post COVID, and there was this piece where there was a mom who said, you know, I know that from the outside looking in, there's a lot of opinion around, well, I need to grow a backbone, or I just need to be firmer with my kid, or I need to lean into tough love. And she'd said, Hey, listen, if tough love worked, my kid would be in school, right? Yep, my experience was the same way. I mean, I got a lot, I mean, it actually kind of, I got quiet about what we were going through because of this idea that, Oh, it's simple. You just make them go to school or leverage their phone or, you know, or, I mean, it was just like, you know, what does that look like when it's not a defiance issue? No, it really isn't. No, it isn't. And so, you know, as I work, I have a couple clients who have kids, and it's not so much the, you know, high achieving, and now they're behind, and so they're in that spiral. It really is. There's a couple things that have come up with clients of mine. One is, you know, well, the social anxiety, real social anxiety, not just like, Oh, I feel stressed. I'm a teen, but like, debilitating social anxiety, which was my daughter's biggest problem. Or, you know, there's also, like, this fear of failure. So I'm not gonna try? Yep, I can keep myself safe if I don't try. And working with parents and trying to and even as I see like and I remember that urgency around but they have to go to school. They can't not go to school. And so we keep that at the forefront, or it can be kept at the forefront when, like you're saying, what is fueling this symptom, which is the school refusal, or in Australia, this video, what they called about, they said, it's not school refusal, it's simply like these kids can't go to school versus won't, right? And so what were some of the ways that you support or. Do support parents who are navigating this with their kids?

Jenell Kheriaty 10:04
Yeah. I mean, really good question. And I think back to the idea that the issue is so complex that we need to kind of dig in and get really curious about what's going on under the surface and understand that there's no one right way to deal with this and that it's going to take working with your child, working with the school, working with professionals in the healthcare industry or the health the medical industry to help you navigate what's going on and what's underneath the symptom of school refusal. Because, as you said, it is not an issue of defiance, though. It seems like an act of defiance, certainly, but really it's more an act of protection. I think, yeah, that the kids are, there's something deep within them that is saying, I don't feel safe for some reason. And by the way, in saying that I want to be really cautious and saying it's not because schools aren't safe places. You know, the schools are doing everything they can to be safe and healthy places for kids. That's their goal, but for whatever reason, that particular place does not feel safe to that particular child at this time. And maybe it wasn't always the case. Maybe something has happened, and it could be something related to school. It could be something related to the people at the school. It could be something related to something going on in that child's life right now that really has very little to do with school. So yeah, what's important is starting to dig in to being really curious. And I love, for all you Ted lasso fans, I love that Walt Whitman quote, which was highlighted in kind of a pinnacle moment of Ted lasso, where he talks about be curious, not judgmental. And I think that this is a mantra that parents can use in a lot of situations that are tricky with our

Casey O'Roarty 12:08
kids. I like all of them, all of them,

Jenell Kheriaty 12:11
because it's so natural for us, as you said, as a parent, to start going to a place of fear, like they have to go to school, what's going to happen if they don't right? And then our fear starts to spiral, and we often naturally will then respond from a place of fear. And if we can take a step back, which I know is so hard to do, as a parent, I'm a parent of teens myself, if we can take a step back and remind ourselves to be curious and to try to start to dig into what is actually going on and approach it almost like a scientist, you know, like I'm going to try and get as much information about what's happening with my child and their experience as I Can. I'm going to ask a lot of questions instead of doing a lot of the talking. Another challenging thing for a lot of parents, myself included, I'm going to try to make space and give space for my child to share the experience, and I'm going to try and dig into questions like, What does it feel like when you get to school, are there times that you do feel good when you're at school? Who at school are you most comfortable around or most uncomfortable around? You know, when you think about going to school, what comes to your mind? What fears resonate with you? What does it feel like to stay home if they're staying home, what is that experience? How do they feel about that? Most often, it doesn't feel good. You know, it's not that they're staying home because they enjoy it. They're struggling and suffering. But we need to figure out, what does it like feel like to go to school if they're still going sometimes, what does it feel like to go after you've been there for a couple of days in a row, if that's a scenario you have, versus what does it feel like to have to go after you've missed a few days? What's that experience? Or even after a weekend, after a break? You know, just, I wouldn't pepper your child with the questions, but if you start to dig in and make space for them to share the experience and just start to gather information. And one of the ways to encourage them to share with us, of course, is that second piece of the be curious, not judgmental piece. Yeah, not don't judge, right? So when they do share with us, just sit with it and acknowledge whatever it is they're sharing, because it's their reality. It's real for them, even if it's not something we understand or might seem like something small to us, it's a real experience that's obviously impacting them in really significant ways. So you know, as much as you can just leaving any judgment out of it, because any perception of judgment on the part of our kids, even if we're not trying to it just shuts it down. That's the end of it, right? So

Casey O'Roarty 15:13
they're highly sensitive to the judgment, which includes the look on our face, absolutely

Jenell Kheriaty 15:19
it's all right. So yeah, I think if we can start to dig in with from that perspective of just, I want to really try to understand that is kind of a step one, and then I think try not to do it alone. I think parents are often feeling shame themselves when this comes up, like I've done something, as you said earlier, Casey, everybody you know around you may be giving you messages like you just do this, you know, if you only put up hard boundaries, if you only did this, you know, and it can make you as a parent, feel like you've done something wrong. That's why I want to go back to that idea that there's no like, cookie cutter experience here. It's not like because you did x now we are looking at Y. There's something deep going on within your kid. It has very little, often times, to do with you as a parent and how much you love them. It's just everybody has challenges that and struggles that we're facing, and this is one that some people face. So I think if parents can also try to work with their own shame and their own fears and reach out to people who are out there who can provide support, that's, I think, a critical piece too, because obviously the child in this case is going to need some professional support in some way. There's a wound right? There's an underlying wound going on. And if there was a physical wound, we wouldn't ignore it. We would treat it right? We would go figure out how to treat that hurt. And I think the same thing is happening here. There's some sort of wound happening, and we need to dig in with professionals who know how to help treat whatever is going on underneath, right

Casey O'Roarty 17:14
well and in our experience. And I know that, you know, I'm thinking those of you that are my one on one clients who are listening, you know that you're on my brain right now? You know there's also that piece with a couple things that I want to talk about. First, that you know yes to outside, like get a team outside, support 100% for parents and for kids, and something that's so hard to sit with is the level of willingness our kids have in the moment to do the work, to dig into what's getting in their way. And that's can be really challenging. And it definitely can feel like, you know, our timeline is different than their timeline, as far as how it can feel like glacial pace, as far as our kids willingness. I mean, we did a DBT program, my daughter and I, it was a six month program, and it wasn't until like month three where something happened for her, and this was already, we were already a couple years into the school reviews. I mean, she'd already dropped out of high school. But it was about three months into the DBT program that she something occurred to her where she realized, Oh, this is on me, and this is for me. Like, really, my life doesn't change until I start doing something different. And it was a continue, you know? It was like turning a freighter. It wasn't like, we're in a speed boat. And it was like, quick U turn, you know, great, you get it. It was still a very slow process. And so ever more important was my support as I sat with that because, you know, there's also temperament and distress tolerance. I mean, many of us have kiddos with temperaments, like Rowan's temperament is the opposite, like we have totally different temperaments, whereas I am dive in, you know, not no fear, but like, I'll deal with it, extrovert, she is observing, cautious, introvert. And when she said to me, you don't get it, you don't understand, she was right. She was 100% right. Yes, I have been a teenager that was nowhere near enough to truly understand what she was going through, and then realizing, Oh, I don't have to necessarily understand to be curious instead of judgmental. And the other piece for me too, yes, that personal growth around my own shame, but also recognizing how deep my conditioning was around education equaling personal value, right and like, I consider myself very open minded and very child forward. And this came up and sat at the table, and it was like, whoa. What's happening right now? And I realized over time, like, Oh, this is tapping on something that I didn't even realize I was holding. And so doing that work, you know? And again, the temperament, distress tolerance piece, I mean our kids, when we lift up and out, our kids move from these, many of them from these nurturing communities of elementary school where perhaps there were seeds already of anxiety, or, you know, again, lack of distress tolerance, or less distress tolerance, but they hadn't really been poked at. Then they get into a little bit bigger school, middle school, and then they're moving into adolescence, and then for many of our kids, you know, my daughter included, they're in this massive High School right, where, you know those questions around, where do you feel safe? Where do you feel good? I don't think she there was any space other than maybe the handicap stall of the girl's bathroom amongst a small group of friends, friends, passing a vape pen, right, handling the distress, right? I mean, she walking down the hallway, getting up in class to talk to a teacher. None of it, all of it like, I mean, all of it riddled her with anxiety. And so we get to really get to know our kids. And the other thing that I wanted to bring up, too, that I thought you spoke into so well, yes, pausing to find curiosity, but also, you know, and it might be pausing and recognizing, okay, up until this point, I have been judgmental. And up until this point, yeah, I have been throwing down messages around what I accept what I don't accept. And so there could be some cleanup, right? And it might sound like, you know, hey, we've been moving through this hard challenge, and I've been really scared, right? Because ultimately, isn't that really what was fear? So scared, I've been really scared, and I'm realizing that my fear has shown up as a lot of judgment around that. So I want to do this differently, right? Because I think, yeah, because kids shut down in the judgment and so maybe it's like, yeah, be great to be curious, but my kid won't talk to me, right? I love

Jenell Kheriaty 22:11
that idea of just modeling for them that vulnerability. Because, you know, part of all of this is that our kids are feeling like they don't belong, or they're not good enough in some way, or that they're not meeting some expectation that either they have or someone else has of them and to model for them, that we're very imperfect, and we're still kind of muddling through life and trying to figure out the best way to Do things, and often we don't do them the way, in retrospect, we wish we had. So it's just such a beautiful and organic way to model that for our kids in the midst of, you know, a situation where they're having themselves to look at their own vulnerability. So I think that's a beautiful way to connect and kind of extend yourself out to them and open yourself to that. And it might take several cries, right? It might, as you said earlier, this whole process moves at a glacial pace, which is painful because we're talking about school that happens every day, you know, and it's just, you know, day after day after day, everybody who's involved in the process, I think, has this mental like, check mark, like it's another day we've missed another day. How much more Have we missed now? You know, where are we with the attendance like that is very stressful, and the experience of moving through this to some kind of movement forward, I won't say solution, because I don't think there's like, a nice box, yeah, with a bow on it, of a solution. But moving forward in some kind of productive way, it does take incredible patience, and it takes a lot of time because of the situation that we're you know, circumstances that we're talking about that can feed into this. And I really like that you brought up your own notion of school and what is expected and kind of acceptable in terms of just going to school in a traditional way, yeah. And I think a big conversation piece in this whole school refusal conversation is fit Yes. And, you know, I happen to be in a place living in Seattle where there are a myriad of school options, but really, anywhere you are at this point in time, there are a lot of ways to do school, and I think that's another thing that a lot of parents don't realize because they haven't had to explore that previously, they may just send their child to their local public school or even maybe a private school, and think that that's what you do, and not quite, really. Lies the the incredible vast number of ways that a child can do school. So I think it's important to start asking that question, is this a fit issue? Is there another way for my child to do school that will be a better fit for them that will feel safe to them. There are, of course, a myriad of public schools. There are programs like running start. There are private schools. There are, oftentimes, a lot of, you know, brick and mortar in person, school buildings that provide one to one schooling or very small student, teacher ratios experiences where there are more personalized school options, those can be especially powerful for kids that are struggling with some of the social components of school, or the overwhelming, as you said, like just the overwhelm of being In an environment with so many people, so many different teachers. You have to interact with so many different Yeah, students. You have to encounter that that. You know, there are other kinds of environments where sometimes kids find that they're able to really thrive. And then, of course, with technology, we know there's a myriad of options online. Yeah, so many other ways to engage in school. So if you find that, like, you know, we really want to make school a non negotiable in some way. I think what you have to do then is figure out, well, how are we going to give some choice in that? Yeah, so, okay, if you know, if we're at an age where school has to happen right then, can we look at how can give our child some choice and agency? Can we engage them in the process of exploring other ways that this might happen for them? Yeah, and see if something clicks for them, because, because oftentimes that can give them a little bit of hope that there might be another way to do this, because, as you said earlier, this isn't necessarily an act of defiance, oftentimes, most of the time, when I meet with kids who are struggling to get to school, they want desperately to be able to do school. They want to make it work. They aren't able to for whatever reason. They don't understand why? Yeah, they want to feel, quote, unquote, normal, right? They want to feel like they can engage in the world like their peers are. And so then there's incredible shame that comes with them not being able to do that, and they feel like, what's wrong with me, right? What's wrong with me? Why can everybody else show up to school and walk through the day and I can't do this. And if we can give them a sense of other options that may be out there for them, other ways that people are doing this school experience and kind of open their mind up. It can give them, sometimes, a little bit of hope that there may be other ways to move forward, and then they're not feeling like they're hitting just up against a brick wall continuously, because once they feel like I don't feel safe in that place, there may be a way to work them through that might be possible. And it can happen. I've seen it happen with a lot of support and help from outside, but there might not, and it may be that they need a clean slate and a fresh start as well, well. And

Casey O'Roarty 28:30
it's interesting too, because there aren't necessarily saying, I really want to make this work, mom and dad. No, right? I wish I could do it. I feel shame that I can't do it instead. It presents as, I don't care. I don't want to go. It doesn't matter, right? Again, that protected can show up. And I think that's so challenging. And just thinking about, you know, when it started like, freshman year was tough. Sophomore year, we did go online before it was cool, before COVID, you know, that was her demand, was, I'm doing online school. And I was like, what even? Is that even a thing, you know? And I recognized in the moment that I was taking out this big piece of her development, which was that social engagement to make school work for her. And that was I knew, I was like, wow, you know, and I'm grateful that she was the age she was, and not 1112, 13, because that's like you said. I mean, there are alternatives, absolutely. And I love explore, explore, explore, and I know not everybody is in a place in the country, in the world that has a lot of alternative options, but dig around. You know, dig around.

Casey O'Roarty 29:50
When I think about my girl and I remember thinking like, you know, well, so what is beyond like everybody gets a high school diploma? Like, what are you talking about? You know, kind of dismantling that for myself and getting really clear with myself around, what is the point? What is the purpose of going to school, when I'm thinking about my older teen and really sitting with like, I wanted her to have the tools that she needs to create the life that she wants. I wanted her to have the tools have the ability to move out, to sustain her life and like those, you know, I didn't care if she knew all the facts about the US Constitution or, you know, some of the nitty gritty things, although I knew, like, hey, eventually, if she wants to, you know, she ended up going to trade school, which was awesome, but declaring the whole time I will not going to college ever, right? I'm like, okay, yep, she was recently on the podcast and shared that she is, in fact, in college, but at the time, you know, she was definitive about that, and I knew, and I got to trust like I get to trust her journey, separate from me, will play out the way that she wants it to play out, and she might bump up against something that says, ooh, I want to be able to do more, and so I've got to get more education or take more certification and like that wasn't my responsibility. My responsibility. I feel like, as a parent and you guys that are listening, our responsibility is to give them the skills to recognize when that moment happens, like, oh, and I can, I can, I can research and figure out what else I can do in this field or in a different field, and I can have conversations with my parents about this without them saying like, Well, maybe if you would a, x, y, z, you know, it wouldn't be this hard. So there's a piece here too around trusting and having faith in the journey that our kids are on, even as in the moment it looks like such a dumpster fire, right? Like I was just talking to my parents last night at dinner, and I said, you know, for all that we went through, I don't know another 21 year old who is more self aware and emotionally intelligent than my daughter because of, not despite, but because of what she's been through, and she as a 21 year old college student, is when I think about myself at 21 in college. I mean, I was just figuring out how to how to party and go to class, you know, like, it's such a different like, I think there's something here too in trusting the process, trusting their journey, and showing up. And I know you and I share this piece, and I talk about it all the time here on the podcast, which is even as we're moving like, as we're moving through this with our kiddo, how important it is to maintain that relationship with them and maintain this energy of, you know, for me, my words would be, I see you not going anywhere like I trust that we're gonna move through this. And I'm not attached to how it looks, right? There's something to

Jenell Kheriaty 33:17
that do, yeah, that's really hard. I mean, I love talking about that, that as you're talking about this journey, I have this visual image in my mind of this, you know, this nice, smooth, straight line, and it might take a few dips, and this COVID line that's just kind of chaotic. But both lines can end up starting in one place and ending in another, right? It's starting in one place and ending in the same place, or moving forward, right? Is what you're talking about. But it looking very differently than, here's the piece, than what we thought it was going to look like. It's like we had this image in our minds. And I think as parents, you slowly let go through the life of your child, of some of the, you know, the things that you thought or you hoped might happen for them. And a lot of times they're small, and so it's not as difficult to let go of, okay, they're not going to be that musician. I hope they would be or, you know, whatever these things are that we love, and maybe they don't have the same love, the same passions we have, or maybe they just are really different kind of human than we are, and so we let go of some of the expectations that we had just because they're different than we are. But I think you're talking about this like you said, things that we probably don't even think about in terms of our expectations, these kind of things that are under the surface that we just assume, like we assume our kids going to go through school, and that, you know, right? And then when that doesn't happen, there's grief as a parent, yeah, when we have to let go of. Something that we visualized for our kids, and some of the things that we think go along with that right there are natural celebrations and natural moments that we visualize our kid walking across a stage right that is something that parents think about. I don't know about you would when naming your child? How many parents thought about somebody announcing that name as the child walked across the stage? So we yeah, we start with all of these kinds of expectations, and we slowly adjust them as we watch our child grow into the incredible human that they grow into. But when they like, shake us to the core by taking that turn on the journey in a way we never imagined, never imagined. You know, it doesn't mean you don't love your child. If you're grieving, yeah, the loss of some of those things you might, you might have thought you were going to share with them, or that they were going to get to do. I think that's very fair, but I just love Casey that you brought up the idea of keeping and maintaining that relationship, because that, to me, is everything. I mean, at the heart of anything we do as parents is making sure that we continue to try to connect with those kids, and especially when you're going through crisis, which this feels like a crisis when you're in the middle of it, it's so important that the child feels like there's more to the relationship than this crisis. It's so critical that they still feel like they can connect with you as mom, as dad, that they can connect with their parents, and that there are times to just be together and not be talking about the issues, not be talking about schooling, not be talking about all the therapy or all of the things that you're doing, that there it's time when you can just be together, doing the things you enjoy doing, and connecting and having a relationship with your child. So I'd say to that end, if you know whether you're going through school refusal or any other big, significant issue with your child, putting some boundaries on how and when you will talk about that so that there is time that they know will be free of conversation about that crisis or that situation. That is an important piece, I think, to maintaining the relationship, because otherwise they're going to avoid you. If they think that every interaction is going to be about that thing that is making them feel miserable, they're going to avoid the relationship altogether. So if you can kind of make you know, I'm going through entirely different experience right now, but my daughter is applying to colleges, and great piece of advice I was given was set up a weekly time to sit down and talk about it, and then you're not talking about it all the time. And, yeah, I think, well, that's a good way to do a lot of things, right? Anything that's stressful in our lives, you know, especially with our kids, they're going to avoid us. They're going to run the other way when they see us. If they know we're going to keep asking about that thing. So how can we make space to do the work we have to do? You know, set up the time to work on it and talk about it, but make a lot of space to just continue to be in relationship and to live the life that you can live outside of what's going on, so that this doesn't become their entire life and their entire world, which is, which is a very, very very hard to do

Casey O'Roarty 38:43
well, and it makes me think about so. I have a mantra that I love to speak into here on the podcast, which is fiercely committed, lovingly detached. And you know, there is something as well like there's this energetic handing over to when we can be in relationship, enjoying the whole rest of who our child is. And it's such a right place for power struggle and the idea that this is about mom and dad. Mom and Dad want me to do this thing where as it behooves us as parents to figure out, and I don't know the perfect way of doing this, but to figure out how to land. This is for you. This is for your life. And I think that when we can kind of relax our own anxiety about what's going on, and we can be with them without being all wrapped up in, oh my God, what's happening with school. I feel like there's this unspoken messaging that gets passed on around, like, I'm gonna love you no matter what, like I'm not going anywhere, and I. Life doesn't have to be this hard for you, right? And I think it's really tricky because we don't always realize that we're centering ourselves. We don't realize that we're making it about us and we do it. So I just want to leave listeners with that you know that practice of and that invitation and permission, like permission to spend that time with your kiddo without bringing up. Are you going to go to school tomorrow? Let's talk about it. What's going on with you, and instead enjoy that kid that you have, because there's so much more to them. And they're still in development. They're still maturing. They are still growing into this person who they will continue to grow towards. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know if you have anything to follow up with that with, but there's something there. I have, one client in particular that I continue to try to talk to her about, like, it's such a gnarly power struggle for them. And I just keep saying, like, how can you not make it about her being anti you, but instead her being pro herself, yeah? What she needs, right? Yeah. And

Jenell Kheriaty 41:09
I like that image of putting the child at the center, like, sometimes there's literally and figuratively, there are a bunch of adults around a table talking about the child, and the child is kind of sitting there watching, right? Or there's a bunch of adults doing a whole lot of work, and the child is kind of sitting on the outside, so it's like, how do we bring that kid into the center? And that's really hard because, you know, there's going to be resistance from the child, because, as you said, early on, we have to pull them in. It's going to be work for them. It's going to be hard for them to be at the center of this. But how do we help them start to get down to and this is where we can get curious again, like, what is it you do want? Yeah, what is it you do want in life? And you don't, by the way, you don't have to know, like, who you want to be, and the whole thing, like, that's what we're talking about, like, just right now, just in the next few months, just, you know, in the next year, etc. What would that ideal situation look like for you? And then how do you get to that? And I was just talking with a parent recently about, you know, happiness, this idea of, I want to be happy, or why I want my child to be happy. And I was suggesting, like, dig in with your child on when they are most fulfilled. Like content, right? Like fulfilled? Yes. What experiences have you had that are really fulfilling for you? Oftentimes, those are the experiences where you had to work really hard at something, and then you enjoyed the outcome of that hard work. And so, okay, let's maybe start without as a foundation, having the child start to understand you're going to dig in and do some work here, and the outcome is going to be fulfilling for you. It's going to be worth the work. You are going to feel like, yes, like fulfilled by the experience, but it's a journey to get them to engage in and then to do the work to get to that place.

Casey O'Roarty 43:07
Yeah, oh

Jenell Kheriaty 43:08
my God, you have to be at the middle of it. I love that.

Casey O'Roarty 43:10
So good. And, you know, and in the middle, I know that we both mean, like, the energetic middle, not necessarily, you know, physically, but, ah, there's so much, there's so much here. And I knew this was going to be a really fun, great conversation with you. Janelle, so thank you so much for coming in, and thank you, you know, for also, I think this conversation really highlights that it's not neat and tidy. You know, I said that early on, it's not neat and tidy. So if you are in the situation and you are feeling the grief, and you're feeling the urgency and you're feeling all the things. That's how it feels. Right. You're not doing something wrong here. You're experiencing this challenge in the way that it exists. And so, you know, get support. Janelle and I are here for you. Find your therapist. Like, know that there are people that can be, you know, sound boards and space holders for you. Thank you so much again for being here. Let me ask you my final question. Okay, so my podcast is called joyful courage, and I ask all my guests, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of everything we've talked about today?

Jenell Kheriaty 44:20
Great question. I think in this context, it means, you know, having the courage, I'm going to go back to what you said earlier, to be vulnerable with your child, having the courage to show up as your authentic self and to be honest with how difficult the challenge is and at the same time, balancing that with giving yourself and your child opportunities for joy and for hope, so making space to continue to just be in community with your child, to be in relationship with them. To to have moments of joy, to give them moments of hope, and help them develop the perspective that what we're in right now is not what we will always be in. Yes, I'm here with you, and I'm going to love you, as you said, no matter what, and we're going to work through this together. And we're not always going to be here, yeah, and there will be days ahead that will be even more joyful and filled with really beautiful experiences we can't envision right now. Thank

Casey O'Roarty 45:31
you. Yeah, where can people find you and follow your work? Yeah, they

Jenell Kheriaty 45:36
can find me online at Thrive, consult and coach.com and then I'm also on Instagram at Thrive, consult and coach, and I can make sure that you have that information. Casey, thank you so much.

Casey O'Roarty 45:50
We'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, I

Jenell Kheriaty 45:52
loved being here and having this conversation. As you said, it's so messy and there's no clear answer. And number one thing, I think, is for parents to understand you may feel so alone and isolated in this, and you're not alone. There are a lot of people who, unfortunately, are struggling through this, and there's a lot of folks out there, like Casey and like me, who are here to help support you through it, so you don't feel so alone. Yeah, thank

Casey O'Roarty 46:21
you so much.

Jenell Kheriaty 46:22
Thanks Casey.

Casey O'Roarty 46:29
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my sproutable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting the show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected] tune back in later this week for our Thursday show, and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace.