Eps 522: Encouraging spirituality to support mental health for teens with Annie Donaldson

Annie Donaldson is an experienced educator, social & emotional learning coach, and advocate for teen mental health.  With over 10 years of teaching experience, including working closely with students facing mental health challenges, she has dedicated herself to empowering young people with the confidence and emotional strength they need to thrive.  

Annie’s personal journey of self-discovery combined with her passion for mental health & spirituality inspired the creation of The Empowered Teen Program which provides teens with essential tools for confidence and success in both their academic and personal lives.  The Empowered Teen Program, which started as private coaching for high school students, now supports youth ages 8-18 through virtual coaching and in-school programs.

Annie’s approach focuses on integrating mental, emotional, and spiritual wellness into daily life, equipping teens with the tools they need before challenges arise, rather than waiting for red flags or crises to seek help.  She’s currently partnering with local schools to normalize conversations around mental health, making these vital discussions part of the school environment to benefit both students and educators.  

Her new offer for teens, The Empowered Teen Workbook will be available for purchase this fall, offering teens a 21-day road map to building confidence, self-awareness, and personal success.  

Resources:

Annie on Instagram
Annie’s Website: The Empowered Teen Program and Coaching
The Empowered Teen Workbook (available 11/1/24)
The Spiritual Child by Dr. Lisa Miller
The Awakened Brain by Dr. Lisa Miller

Joyful courage means knowing you can never really fail and to move forward excited that you have the power within you to move through life beautifully, even if it looks messy sometimes and to play the role that you were meant to play.

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 00:04
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens, this is real work people, and when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey orrdy. I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder, coach and the adolescent lead at sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you, and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic, so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview, and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials, or text it to your friends. Together, we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show. You welcome back, everybody. My guest today is Annie Donaldson. Annie is an experienced educator, social and emotional learning coach and advocate for teen mental health, with over 10 years of teaching experience, including working closely with students facing mental health challenges, she has dedicated herself to empowering young people with the confidence and emotional strength they need to thrive. Annie's personal journey of self discovery, combined with her passion for mental health and spirituality, inspired the creation of the Empowered teen program, which provides teens with essential tools for confidence and success in both their academic and personal lives. The empowered teen program, which started as private coaching for high school students, now supports youth ages eight to 18 through virtual coaching and in school programs. Annie's approach focuses on integrating mental, emotional and spiritual wellness into daily life, equipping teens with the tools they need before challenges arise, rather than waiting for red flags or crisis to seek help, she's currently partnering with local schools to normalize conversations around mental health, making these vital discussions part of the school environment to benefit both students and Educators. Her new offer for teens, the Empowered teen workbook will be available for purchase this fall, offering teens a 21 day roadmap to building confidence, self awareness and personal success. Hi Annie, welcome to the podcast.

Annie Donaldson 02:53
Hi Casey, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here with you and talking about this.

Casey O'Roarty 02:59
Yes, me too. I want to know more about you and your path to working with teens, and specifically what brought spirituality into the work that you're doing with teens, the

Annie Donaldson 03:13
paths that got me to where I am today aligns very much with the entire concept of spirituality, because I couldn't have planned it myself. I couldn't have known that each step of the way was going to lead me to where I am today, which is so common for all of us, right? So I originally set out to be an elementary school teacher, and I really made this choice because I was raised as a people pleaser, to do things that I thought were accepted by others, and would be, you know, I would get a good job, I would have a firm foundation, make good money, be on my way. And then as a junior in college, I was like, Oh, I don't know. I don't really think this is where I'm meant to be. I started to turn towards spirituality to figure out these questions. And I ended up applying for Teach For America because I wanted to work with special education population. And I got accepted, and they placed me in a high school in the Bronx as a 22 year old, and my students were as old as 19 years old. So that was intimidating at first, but if you had told me I'd be working with teenagers a few years prior, I would have thought you were out of your mind. It was never my goal, but immediately I loved it. I felt like when I worked with elementary school kids, I was playing a pretend role. It didn't feel as authentic to me and with teenagers, man, I felt like that connection was just easy and I could be authentic. They were very authentic. Nothing more authentic than I wanted them to be within this school day. And yeah, that's where my. Passion for working with teenagers started, but to continue on, I ended up leaving to work closer to home. I wanted to be near my family after my Teach For America requirement, thought I was going to get this job in my home district. Thought it was going to be perfect. I was going to be set for life, and I didn't get the job. I made it to the final round, and I was destroyed. It was another one of those illusions where I thought that I knew best, but something greater than me actually knew best, and we'll talk about that at length, I'm sure. But I ended up getting a job working with students with mental health concerns, and said teenagers again, and I listened to their stories and became obsessed with their history and the fact that they could all pinpoint when their issues began as around seventh grade, and how they didn't really receive support until these issues, you know, became prevalent, and I decided that I wanted to live out This mission of making mental health proactive instead of reactive, and became less passionate about teaching them English and Science and Social Studies and math, and more interested in talking about mental health, emotional wellness and spiritual wellness. Yeah, and so I had a spiritual life coach myself through all of this, and thought, what if we could provide these things to teenagers when they really need it, instead of in adulthood, when so many of us are making pivots in our lives because we realize we're unfulfilled.

Casey O'Roarty 06:32
I'm looking at you, and I'm doing some math, and I'm thinking like my daughter would have been one of your first students, probably, and in seventh grade and starting her, I mean, I think she definitely came out with something like came out of my body, literally, with some wiring that she continues to navigate. But yeah, that seventh, eighth grade period of time is when everything came to the surface for her and for so many kids, of parents that I work with, and I just want to give a little caveat to listeners. So yeah, we're talking spirituality today, and I just to be super transparent, I get approached by a lot of people who I don't end up inviting onto the podcast because the conversation gears towards a more spiritual tone, but really more religious than spiritual, and I get really uncomfortable with it. And so when we were kind of emailing back and forth, and I asked you, I was like, Okay, what does this mean to you, you know, and like, tell me a little bit more you want to talk spirituality. What does that mean? Because, you know, and I was cracking up because I was talking to somebody this weekend, and I was like, so we were just having a conversation. I said, So are you spiritual? Like, what's your story? And they I remember her being like, yeah, you know, I'm spiritual. I'm like, Well, are you, like, religious, spiritual? Are you like, woo, woo spiritual? Because if somebody's woo, woo spiritual, like, I am on board, right? That's the direction that I go. That's what makes sense to me. Yes, those are the stories that anchor me into a bigger picture anyway. So I just want to give that caveat to listeners. If you're like, man, not really into it, that's fine. I invite you to listen and see what lands for you or not. You know, pick a different show, but we are gonna talk about spirituality and dig into what it means to you, Annie, and what it means to me. And I'm really excited, because it's really real for me. I didn't grow up with a strong connection to spirituality we like. I mean, my mom tried. She did every once a while she'd be like, we're gonna start going to church, and we'd go for three weeks. And I loved it. Because, I mean, anytime you put me in a room with other kids, I was stoked. So like, All right, we're going to church, okay? And as soon as it kind of started to feel like, okay, I know what to do here. We wouldn't go for like, two years, you know? So it was this, or we'd go at Christmas or Easter, so it wasn't a real deep dive at all for me. And then I went to Catholic high school because of the academic rigor, and everybody was Catholic, and I was one of, like, the handful of kids that wasn't Catholic. But again, I loved the ritual around it and the community around the conversations of higher power, there are plenty of things that I was not so keen on. And then, you know, I watched a lot of my friends from high school, as they got older, kind of shy away from church. And then once they had kids, it was they would go back to church. And I, as I had kids, I felt like I was bummed that there was nothing to go back to. And I tried, I tried out some different places in the town that I lived in, and I just couldn't get past the judgment. I couldn't get past like, well, this is the right thing to believe in everybody else's, you know, going to hell, like that. Just I tried. And it just didn't, I couldn't do it. And then I just leaned into again, like I said, what made sense to me and what felt good to me, but as far as teaching my kids, I mean, I was a model, as far as my own practices, and I talked about what I believed, but it felt like there wasn't a guidebook on, you know, passing anything on which may or may not be a good thing, and I'm so hodgepodge that it wasn't like a coherent, you know, it's neat and tidy when it's a coherent storyline, even if you know that coherent storyline maybe doesn't land for you. So anyway, this is all this to say that this is a relevant conversation to me, and I'm really glad that we're having it. So start us off by defining what does spirituality mean to you in this context. So

Annie Donaldson 10:50
before I get into that, I just want to say that your experience is so common, I have a parent conference before I start working with teens, and I bring up this topic to see what they're comfortable with. You know, what their backgrounds like, and almost everyone shares some similarity to your story, where they were raised sort of religious. Maybe they got jaded by the church. Maybe they just, you know, they even say, like they got a little lazy about it, and they just didn't prioritize it. But then they feel this like sense of guilt, like, Well, I'm not passing something onto my kids that could be beneficial to them, and I don't really know where to start. So, yeah, that's so common. And I always tell them, here's how I define spirituality, very simply. It's just the connection to something greater than yourself, that may be God, that may be nature, that may be a sense of purpose, whatever it is, it gives you a safety net. It allows you to put your trust in something greater than yourself. Because we're human, we make mistakes. We can't see how this step is going to lead to something more wonderful and beautiful. So when we have that trust, it can have amazing outcomes for adults and for teens, which I'm sure we're going to get into later, how necessary it is. But religion, when I think of religion, I think of structure, rituals, rules, maybe, you know the physical meeting space, and I think that's a wonderful way to keep spirituality in your life. Have those reminders, right? But it's not 100% necessary in order to have spiritual life. You can have your hodgepodge spirituality, and it can have the same exact benefits for you as someone who's deeply religious, so no judgment on your hodgepodge.

Casey O'Roarty 12:50
This interview would be over. I'm with you, and, you know, I just want to go back to something that you said. So I talk a lot about, you know, I work with the parents. I don't work with the teens, even though I've had a lot of clients who are like, will you come work with my team? Like, I don't know that is not my job, but one of the things that I invite people into, and I'm realizing, as we talk at a deeper level, that it really is an invitation to, you know, trusting something bigger is like, Life is uncertain, and the unfolding of Life is uncertain, and especially the parents that come to me tend to have kids that are, you know, moving through hard times, or they, as a family unit, are moving through hard times. And I invite them like you get to have faith in things working out and be getting to another side. You don't get to know what the path is going to look like. You don't get to know all the steps, but in the present moment, you can there is a choice here to trust that you're all going to move through it and you're going to get to another side of it, whatever it is, right, exactly, and, yeah, and that is, you know, I'm just kind of piecing it together. I know it's a big ask, right? I know it's a big ask. And recently, my sister was like, she has younger kids. She says, Did you just feel all the time like you were envisioning, you know, bones breaking and death with your young kids? Like I feel like I'm always catastrophizing. And I said to her, I was like, I refuse to live inside of an outcome that hasn't happened like, you know, and my husband has moved through health challenges. I mentioned my daughter, she had a big mental health period of time that we had to live inside of. And I feel like, for me, it's just a refuse I mean, there's so many possible outcomes. Why would I want to sit inside of the worst case scenario that hasn't happened, yeah, and so I think that is a step towards, you know, trusting in something bigger. Because, yeah, I mean, we don't know Life is uncertain.

Annie Donaldson 14:59
If we sit. In that fear life becomes overwhelming. That's where anxiety comes from, is picturing those fake outcomes that could potentially happening and living in that space. And so I love that you use the word faith. I feel like so many people don't say it because they are scared that it's too religiously affiliated and it might turn people away, but really, it's just faith in even the challenges are here for us, and it's not life happening to us, and if we can, it's

Casey O'Roarty 15:32
very life coachy, yes,

Annie Donaldson 15:34
I'm sorry. I had to say, like it. I like it. If we live with the challenge, we come out the other side. You know, everything is here on purpose. So I like to say faith over fear as a personal reminder for myself. Anytime I'm in fear, I say, Well, how can I live in faith right now? Yeah, and it just brings me to a more positive mindset,

Casey O'Roarty 15:56
yeah. And I feel like there's so much possibility, like, when I talk about having faith, you know, for me, it's not like faith in something bigger pulling the strings, but just faith in, like we're all here to walk this life path, and yes, the things that show up in we can't know. Like, I said this to my daughter, I remember I was standing right in that doorway over there. I said, you know. And she was really in the dark stuff. And I said, Babe, you know, maybe one day you'll look back and you'll think about, you know, how this part of your life was really a gift that took you in a direction that you're meant to go in. And I mean, the daggers in her eyes when I said that, I was like, okay, too soon, you know, but like, truly, you know, I just really appreciate that. So you're working with teens, you're talking about emotional and mental well being. How does spirituality and having a spiritual grounding impact that for teenagers? Would you say?

Annie Donaldson 16:56
So? Something you said that I also want to address, that also ties into that is someone pulling the strings. Is something that a lot of teenagers I talk to don't resonate with, but something they do resonate with, which is what I do in my programming, is we talk about your higher self so your spiritual self. Love it. I have them picture themselves at three, at their current age, and then maybe what they might look like at 60, and I asked them, How has your body changed? How have your thoughts changed? How have your emotions changed? They're vastly different at those different ages. And what has stayed the same? Some of them have never considered, oh yeah, I'm still me. If I'm not my thoughts, if I'm not my emotions, then what am I? So yeah, they're introduced to this idea of your spirit, your higher self, someone that you can connect to that is you, but it's the you without the drama, it's the you without the fear, it's the you that can make really good decisions to keep you on your path, your inner GPS. So having this as someone or something that you can tap into gives them tools to be, or the language just to say, like, I know that this is right for me, and I can't see physically why, but it's a knowing that I have so that knowing that safety that they get from their higher self, from their spirit. It allows for emotional resilience. You know, they are able to encounter a tough circumstance and know that it's happening for them, like we've talked about. They know that there's no true accidents and that life's happening for them instead of to them. So it lets go of that control that we so desperately try to have, and just gives them the vocabulary to live in a freer space. And it doesn't take all of life's challenges away, but it gives a new perspective and a foundation for those tough times. So whether they believe in God or whether they believe in just having a purpose. It grounds them in spirituality and helps them manage stress, get confidence, you know, less likely to base their self worth on what their friends think and what their grades are and just because they are them. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 19:19
I love that that super resonates with me, the higher self, the source that lives inside of us, that non judgmental, you know, to me, it's this like neutral loving essence, yes, that isn't judging me, that always holds me in high regard. And it's so interesting. So my youngest, my listeners are probably like, yeah, we know my youngest just went to college, so I'm a fresh and I had a friend say, Well, first I heard bird launcher instead of empty nester. I really like that. And then I had another friend say, actually, what I heard was, now you're free birding, which I really like. Okay, I'm free birding now, which is going great, by the way, and it's so interesting to be at this place. And granted, I have two kids that have both had their own, you know, list of challenges and and things that we've moved through, and they were doing great, right? Which is awesome. And being in this place of like, calm, it's so much easier to see them, and being really with this, like they're the creators of their life, and they're moving through it and trusting that they want to, you know, they want to be active participants in their experience. There's something around the higher self conversation, and I just recorded this week's solo show talking about if I could go back four years ago, when we were really in the thick of it with my daughter. Like, what would I say to myself from today? And like that to me, kind of captures that inner wisdom, right? That I'm ever more aware of because of experience and time and moving through. And I think it's so useful. I love what you're talking about that you do with teens, and it really mirrors what I'm inviting parents to do as well. Because sometimes we're so deep in it, you know, we can't see out of the hole to like the horizon and to what lies ahead, but the horizon always exists, like what lies ahead is always out there. And so I just really appreciate this conversation around that part of us, and that exercise of the peace that stays with us through it all is that, that soul, that spirit, that I love, the word essence or higher self. And it's wise, you know, right? And it just is like, calm. It's not freaking out. It's just like, No,

Annie Donaldson 21:59
exactly, it is calm, it's wise, it's all knowing. I love to have teens picture what their higher self looks like, and it's always a very similar version, which is like it's a version of me, but just better looking happy, maybe translucent, with light all around it, right? Just a sense of safety. And I ask them, so how would your Higher Self handle that drama at school? I love that. How would your Higher Self handle a bad test grade? And they always have the wisdom within them, but they just have to access it. And that's where I think you mentioned before, like, sometimes we just need the reminders. That's where a daily practice comes into play, because we all need daily reminders of our spirit, of our higher self to help us get through the day on skate, if we're just, you know, out here alone with our faulty thoughts and our overwhelming emotions. I mean, how can you prosper?

Casey O'Roarty 23:00
Yeah, well, and I want to get to practices. Yeah, definitely, we're going to get to practices, but before we get there, in our emails exchanges, you mentioned teasing apart the difference between the performance self and the spiritual self. So I feel like that's kind of where we've landed now. I mean, this is so relevant to parents. I hope you listeners are recognizing like this is not just for teens. This is absolutely for all of us. So talk a little bit about that, the performance self versus the spiritual self, and how they are in relation to each other. So

Annie Donaldson 23:31
I always had a spiritual practice as I was moving through, like my older teen years into my 20s and 30s, as I was becoming unhappy and needed something to kind of latch onto. I needed some answers, and I don't think we've talked about this, but adolescence is a spiritual awakening. It's a time where we sort of like wake up and our blinders get taken off, and the world is vast, and we have all these questions about who we are and whether we can or can't achieve the things that we think we want to achieve, and it can be a confusing time. So I started following the work of Dr Lisa Miller. She wrote the spiritual child. She wrote the awakened brain. She's a researcher and professor, and in her work, she talks about the performance self, and she talks about the spiritual self. And kids with a strong sense of spirituality are less likely to put their self worth on their daily wins and losses. Wait. Say that again, kids who have a stronger sense of spirituality are less likely to put their self worth on their daily wins and their daily losses. So something bad happens in a sporting event. They don't, you know, get the goal and their team loses, they are less likely for this event to be catastrophic because they have a firm sense of self worth. So. Because they have this spiritual self, kind of like, you know what we were describing a few minutes ago, with being connected to your higher self. Those that don't have any sense of spirituality or any of the things we've been talking about, they put their self worth on their performance. So I am as good as my last grade I am as good as how I performed during that sporting event. And that can make a huge difference. Those that are focused on their performance. Self think that they're loved by others based on their performance, it affects their self esteem. The Spiritual Self gives a greater sense of peace, even when we falter. So I love talking to parents about that, because there's a bunch of research that Dr Miller conducted, and she found that children with a positive relationship with spirituality are 60% less likely to be depressed as teenagers, 40% less likely to use and abuse substances, and they're overall just have a greater sense of purpose and actually do better academically. So if, as parents, we put more emphasis on spirituality, you know, it doesn't have to be all we talk about, that we can still have value in high grades and doing our best, but less emphasis on the performance, our kids actually do better. They actually get better grades when we put less of the focus on the performance.

Casey O'Roarty 26:34
This reminds me so years ago, I did a lot of work with teachers and schools and bringing social emotional learning into the classroom, and one of the activities that we did was around mistakes, because I'm a positive discipline trainer, and one of our pillars is mistakes are opportunities to learn, so it's really promoting the growth mindset. And as you were talking about performance and self worth, it reminded me of this activity that we do where you have a glass and a pitcher of water, and you fill the glass until it spills over, and as the facilitator, I say, oops, like I made a mistake. And then we look at the group and we say, Well, did I make a mistake, or am I a mistake? Right? And the difference between holding mistakes as something we do versus something we are. And that kind of reminded me of what you're talking about around yeah, I didn't play well or I am a bad player, right? There's a difference there, and I think again, just expanding it into the self talk that I hear from parents as well when they're learning a new way of being, right? And you listeners. This includes you guys. You're listening to the pod, you're trying the different ways of being with your kiddos, and how easy it is to slide into what is familiar, what is known, how you have been responding. And how do we talk to ourselves when that happens, right? Are we beating ourselves up? I mean, I've even recently fielded some text messages with a parent who said, you know, I am a failure, right? And I got to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, that's not true first of all. And let's take a look at the bigger picture and different mindsets to have around the situation that you're currently in, and I love bringing this self worth piece and that higher self piece. So thank you for that. And so you know when you said we can incorporate conversations and be bringing spirituality to the dinner table for parents that don't have a particular religion practice that they can incorporate. What does it sound like to have those conversations? How do we bring it into our family? If it's not something that's been a hot topic for our people,

Annie Donaldson 28:58
I think the key is to know that you, as a parent, don't have to have all the answers. I feel like that's why some of us shy away from it is because it's such an unknown topic. It's not something you can google or chat GBT to necessarily find answers to

Casey O'Roarty 29:21
Well, I bet you could chat

Annie Donaldson 29:23
GPT it had to talk to my kid about spirituality, yeah, but not religion, yes, yeah. I'm sure they would have some great ideas. But the point is, like we can't prove the things that we may or may not believe. It's just a knowing within us or it's questions within us. So modeling that for your kids, talking about your experience with maybe religion in your past, maybe your current sense of spirituality, and asking them like, what do you feel? What do you believe, and why, I think, also talk. Talking about times in your life where something didn't work out, just like the story I shared in the beginning. And you may have thought it was the end of the world, but then you looked back and you just said, Thank God that happened, just to instill a sense of trust that even the challenging times aren't here to harm us necessarily. So there's that you can have those conversations and just normalize them. Be okay with the silence, not have to fill the silence. Just sit together. I know that's hard with busy schedules school, you know, social media, but I think it's important to like, have family time without phones around even the adults. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 30:41
yeah, big time. Do that, people, please, yes,

Annie Donaldson 30:43
even if it's just a 15 minute time where everyone in the family, or maybe just one parent and child sit and just connect. I mean, connection is so important. And I feel like what our teens are missing is space. You know, quiet contemplation is important. Like I said, Adolescence is confusing. You need time to figure things out, but if every time you need to figure something out, you're reaching for your phone and scrolling, you don't get those answers that are within you. You don't get that comfort that you can get from the quiet contemplation. So I think as parents, helping our teens to carve out that time and sort of make it a requirement, either for connection or just being, is helpful. You can model some practices for them, like gratitude practice. A lot of families I work with use this and it's helpful for adults. And you know, the teens journaling I provide the teens I work with with questions, because a lot of times I say, Do you journal? And they say, I used to, but I don't really know what to write about. It's so common. So even providing your kids with questions that they can just sort of a starting place to get to the self, right? And as you're writing, the self sort of comes out. And that's that sense of safety that you have your higher self with you, and you get to read your wisdom. It's a beautiful thing. Meditation is a spiritual practice, mindfulness, simply focusing on your breath just to get out of those cloudy thoughts and emotions, just having a five minute mindfulness routine going for a walk in nature without listening to music or without bringing your phone. And I guess a final practice that I'll share is setting an intention for the day with one another is really powerful, and it takes one minute.

Casey O'Roarty 32:39
Yeah, many of those are things that I practice. So I loved hearing all of those. I also think that, you know, there's something to So, like I said, we weren't real rigid at all, and my kids have found their way to their own hodgepodge. You know, I mean, we moved and COVID, and my daughter having a hard time, and then my husband got sick, and my son asked me if I'd get him a Bible. Wow. I was like, Yes. And then I researched, like, the most liberal Bible that exists, you know? And it was so interesting, because I have my own hangups, as we all do, about a variety of things. And you know, something that's really important to me as a parent is to be an acceptance of my kids exactly as they are, who they are. And you know, there's definitely places, especially with my son, where he's pushed back on some things, on some of my beliefs. So I worked hard to be very neutral about getting him a Bible and the symbols that he wanted in his room that helped him anchor into something higher. And, you know, and he turned 18, he got a tattoo on his arm, one of the Psalms, 24/7, I do not think it was 24/7 I don't that's not the thing. I don't know. But whatever one it was, it was though I walk through the valley of darkness, I'm okay because you walk next to me, or something, something like that. Sorry if there are listeners who are offended by my 24/7 24/7 and trying to remember exactly what that piece but basically, and even his college essays, he wrote about how powerful it was for him to have something to hold on to while his dad was sick, you know. And I just get to love and support him and celebrate that he is finding his way to his own brand of spirituality. And the same is true for my daughter, you know, like she's been more interested in kind of the way that I have leaned into spirituality, but even now, now she's kind of branching into something different, and I feel really grateful. To be holding a space for them to find their own way, even when there's this little piece to me that's like, Oh, I could have, should have, you know, taught something. I think it's so powerful to find our way. And I have plenty of friends and clients who have very specific religious spiritual practices and beliefs in their family and their kids are still like pushing back and finding their own way and figuring out what makes sense to them, and there's turmoil in that too. So you know, I guess to me, it's just really comes back to one, the relationship that we have with our kids. Two, being curious and open and neutral around their path, whether it's their spiritual path or academic path, whatever you know, and remaining available for conversation and contemplation and being a model. Yeah,

Annie Donaldson 35:58
I love that you brought that up because, I mean, what's better than being supportive and allowing their journey to unravel? Right? Yeah, and we can be supportive. We can hold space for them and give them opportunity to consider things that may help, and give them opportunity to consider things that maybe they hadn't thought of. But yes, sometimes we need to go through challenge in order to find what works for us in terms of spirituality, like your son, that's a beautiful thing, you know, and he wouldn't have, maybe necessarily gone that route if he didn't have the situation come up with your husband getting sick. So I'm so happy you share that it's such a beautiful philosophy that you have on parenting, and so wonderful for me to hear. As a parent, I have a four year old and a two year old, so I'm in the thick of it with these toddlers.

Casey O'Roarty 36:48
Oh, you're in the thick of round one. I'll see you in 10 years. That's

Annie Donaldson 36:51
what I hear. I know there's like a sweet spot between like six and 12 there is, yeah, I'm looking forward to that. But it's so helpful to hear about letting go of control. You can be a loving, guiding presence for them and set them up for success, but allowing them to have their own journey. I think that's a spiritual practice,

Casey O'Roarty 37:11
absolutely for sure. As we wrap up, I want you to talk a little bit about your workbook. When is it available? November

Annie Donaldson 37:17
1. It will be available on Amazon. Yeah, Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 37:20
perfect. So talk a little bit about

Annie Donaldson 37:22
it. It is a 21 day guide that teens use for self discovery and confidence and empowerment. So in the 21 days, it's about 20 minutes per day, teens are able to look within which is the foundation for spirituality. Right is discovering who we are, and that's one of the major questions that teenagers have, is, who am I? What actions should I take? What's right, what's wrong, giving them the space to contemplate that and record how they're feeling and record what their goals are. So every day, they have an activity for self discovery, but also questions about spirituality, connecting with their higher self some of the activities I talked about before, with how our physical body changes, and things like that. Teens identify what their values are, what their strengths are, then they take their values and strengths and they create goals for themselves. They manage their time based on their values. Because so often we're like, yeah, I really value family connection, and then I'm like, Okay, how much time do you spend with your family? And they're like, never. So we actually have to help our teens to prioritize their values, because then life goes by and you're like, what happened? I'm not happy, right? So that's something that the workbook also helps with and just becoming you capital Y, the you that doesn't get bogged down, with the fear, with the anxiety, with the anger, and anchoring yourself in your spiritual side, to help you to go through challenges, to help you to create new goals for yourself. Yeah, and take it from there.

Casey O'Roarty 39:04
Is it useful for young adults as well? I'm thinking about my own kids. It is

Annie Donaldson 39:09
useful, but it is for more 12 to 16. The language in it is more preparing for those adolescent years. The 16 to 21 is my next project. Okay, perfect. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 39:23
perfect. I was just gonna say, Come on, let's go. The young adults need it too. For sure, there's definitely existential crisis that goes on. It's such a fascinating period of time as my kids move through that later adolescent period and those early years of adulting, baby adults. I call them my baby adults. I love that my baby adults. This was such a great conversation. I'm so glad that you came on. Thank you for the work that you do. Is there anything else you want to leave listeners with before we close? I just want

Annie Donaldson 39:59
to highlight the. Fact that we don't have to have all the answers. I know I said that before, but I really want listeners to know that and to have the faith to open up these conversations and allow their kids to participate in them, without feeling like we need to control or navigate how the conversation goes. And spirituality isn't all butterflies and rainbows and like, oh, everything's fine. Life happens. You know, we're spiritual beings, but we're having a human experience, and we need to go through these hard times, these challenges as parents and as teens. So let your teens be uncomfortable, because that's where the magic happens. That's where they grow. That's where they develop that self esteem.

Casey O'Roarty 40:42
Thank you. And my final question that I ask all my guests, what does joyful courage mean to you?

Annie Donaldson 40:50
Joyful courage means knowing that you can never really fail and to move forward excited that you have the power within you to move through life beautifully, even if it looks messy sometimes, and to play the role that you were meant to play.

Casey O'Roarty 41:12
Thank you. Where can people find you and follow your work?

Annie Donaldson 41:15
You can find me on Instagram at teen coach, underscore, Annie. There you'll find some tips for parents and updates on my workbook. Also my website is www dot empowered teenprogram.com and there you can find my private coaching opportunities for kids age eight to 18, and also some opportunities for school support, where I do small support groups for middle schoolers,

Casey O'Roarty 41:45
all right? And you're in New York, so is that a more localized offer, or do you travel the

Annie Donaldson 41:51
regular school opportunity is localized? All the private coaching that I do is virtual.

Casey O'Roarty 41:57
Okay? Great. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Annie, that was so great. Thank

Annie Donaldson 42:02
you for having me. It was so wonderful. And I feel like I learned so much from you as a parent of teens. So I'm very lucky that we were able to chat today. Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 42:20
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my sproutable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting this show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected] tune back in later this week for our Thursday show, and I'll be back with another interview next Monday.

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