Eps 515: Back to middle school with Julietta Skoog

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The Art of Connected Parenting: Part 1

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Joyful Courage Episode 514: A messy conversation about screens, limits and life skill development 

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Casey’s 6-Week Positive Discipline Class (for parents of adolescents)  

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Transcription

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
kids, parents, middle school, talk, feel, friends, school, navigating, year, middle schoolers, happening, systems, homework, elementary school, hear, great, elementary, place, class, planner
SPEAKERS
Julietta Skoog, Casey O'Roarty

Casey O'Roarty 00:02
Hey, welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place for inspiration and transformation as we try and keep it together while parenting our tweens and teens, this is real work, people, and when we can focus on our own growth and nurturing the connection with our kids, we can move through the turbulence in a way that allows for relationships to remain intact. My name is Casey orrdy. I am your fearless host. I'm a positive discipline trainer, space holder coach and the adolescent lead at sproutable. I am also the mama to a 20 year old daughter and 17 year old son walking right beside you on this path of raising our kids with positive discipline and conscious parenting. This show is meant to be a resource to you, and I work really hard to keep it real, transparent and authentic, so that you feel seen and supported. Today is an interview, and I have no doubt that what you hear will be useful to you. Please don't forget, sharing truly is caring. If you love today's show, please pass the link around, snap a screenshot, post it on your socials, or text it to your friends. Together, we can make an even bigger impact on families all around the globe. I'm so glad that you're here. Enjoy the show.

Casey O'Roarty 01:17
Hi everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited about today's interview. You're gonna recognize this guest. It's my good friend. It's my sister from another mister. It's Julietta scoog on to talk about back to middle school with me and with all of you. So let me just remind you who Julietta is. Julieta is a certified positive discipline advanced trainer with a degree in social psychology and a master's degree in School Counseling over 20 years of experience helping families in schools and homes she draws from her real life practical experiences working with 1000s of students with a variety of needs and her own three kids to parent coaching, bringing a unique ability to translate research child development and positive discipline principles into everyday parenting solutions. Her popular keynotes, speeches, classes and workshops have been described as rejuvenating, motivating and inspiring. Most importantly, Jules has become one of my very best friends, and I call her my sister from another mister all the time. She is a colleague and co founder at sproutable. You heard a lot from her during our art of connected parenting series that we did in earlier this year, in 2024 she's the bomb, and like I said, three kids and an adorable husband. Shout out to John. Love John. Welcome back to the podcast. Jules.

Julietta Skoog 02:52
Thank you. I'm just so happy to spend time with you. I just wanted to, wanted to hang out with you. So I said, Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 02:59
I know. I've really been missing you. This is really nice. How are you today?

Julietta Skoog 03:03
I am here. I am in it. I am just reminding myself to surrender. We're on day four of school, where, I think the last of the whole nation to go back to school. We start so late, so we're still getting in the swing of things. We started last Wednesday. So we're, this is our first Monday of school, so getting all three kids out, John's a teacher, so we are very much entrenched in the school life, school rhythm, school culture.

Casey O'Roarty 03:32
Right. And remind everybody you have an elementary and middle and on high school. So like, what does that look like in the morning?

Julietta Skoog 03:39
Yes, well, and we have three different schools

Casey O'Roarty 03:41
and John,

Julietta Skoog 03:41
and there's John too, so four, but three schools. So we have a high school, we have a 10th grader, a seventh grader, and then a second grader. And we're really lucky in that we live in a neighborhood that's very walkable. So our high school is two blocks away, our middle school is two blocks away, and then my second grader and I actually walked to school as well. It's further, it's almost a mile, but it's so beautiful, and it sets my day right. But one thing that I love is that we're because we're so close to the schools, we've become this hub in middle and high school that I just did not it didn't register for me, or expected or anything that it was going to be an extra bonus. So we have the middle schoolers get dropped off at our house in the morning, because they start an hour later than the elementary school in our neighborhood. So and parents are off to work, so they drop their elementary school kids, also the middle school friends at our house, and then the kids walk to school together.

Casey O'Roarty 04:41
Yeah, and I've been there, I've got to walk the youngest with you to elementary school. I've seen those middle school girls just hunkered down at your table. And it is. It's such a nice morning vibe at your house.

Julietta Skoog 04:57
Yeah, we call it The Breakfast Club. Yeah. And like I said, I mean. Sometimes, you know, especially because we're focused on the middle school I was just reflecting this morning. Sometimes I like, I'm like, don't say anything, because then they'll forget I'm there, you know, like, just so then you can really just be this fly on the wall and get a little bit of a I just got these little snapshots, you know, if things that they're talking about or need to interject. I don't need to correct them when they say funny things that just really are not true. Like this morning, the one was, oh, no, you could leave your earrings up for like, a whole year, and it would like, never close up. And in my head, I'm like, uh, she just got her ears pierced. Like, yes, you do need to keep your skin in there, or they will close up. But I didn't say anything. And they're sweet, they're helpful. You know, sometimes I'm like, Hey, got a bunch of groceries. Will help me bring them in, and they're right on board. Yeah, it's Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 05:51
yeah. I love that. And, you know, moving into the school year and coming off of big summers, we've both had big summers in our own ways. And I know for you, as well as for a lot of people who are finding themselves raising adolescents, it's that midlife time where we're also perhaps navigating some of our parents, health stuff and things that are happening with our parents. We're in this really. I mean, I want to call it a wacky role. It's not wacky, it's just hard, right? And navigating siblings. And so I just wanted to highlight and see you in that as well. And I know a lot of listeners are with you.

Julietta Skoog 06:27
Thank you for seeing Yeah, this summer would be really hard. This was the hardest for that very reason, being in that sandwich season with caretaking for my mom, and it was the first season for summer that we our kids are old enough now that we don't get, you know, we're not. We're out of that little face where it feels like this summer that we're all together and we're all, yeah, there was a shift in the season. So I feel that clunkiness, like you were saying that kind of wacky or weird or hard. It's almost like a gear shift, like I'm shifting to another gear, and I'm not quite there yet, and I'm still figuring it out internally.

Casey O'Roarty 07:06
Yeah, the clutch is a little sticky,

Julietta Skoog 07:08
yes, yeah, oh yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 07:10
yeah. So Middle School, right back to middle school. So when you and I know, and I mean listeners, I'm gonna assume the hell out of you guys right now, some of you know Jules, and you know that she's our early years lead at sproutable. Her domain is really those younger years and early elementary and and through elementary, and I'm pulling you in to talk middle school, because I know that you're brilliant, and you have one and you know things. So when you listen to maybe your cohort of parents that are the parents of your middles friends. What do you hear about the hardest things, the trickiest things that come up early in the year, during the middle school years?

Julietta Skoog 07:52
Well, I think what's interesting, especially a lot of the parents that I coach, you know, we're now that whole four years out of covid, like we're now in a whole nother cohort of kids. So also, what I went through with my oldest all through middle school was a whole nother ball of wax because it was covid time, right? Yeah. So what's interesting to me is, even though this is quote, unquote, you know, not my first rodeo in middle school, it really does feel different and new, and even in just the three year difference, I think the biggest piece is around screens and technology. We are one of the very few families where my seventh grader does not have a cell phone, and

Casey O'Roarty 08:40
we're going to talk about talk about that. Oh yeah.

Julietta Skoog 08:43
So I think also like navigating that role, through it all, and we'll talk about it later. But I think that is one piece that I just hear from other families too, in terms of like how, either directly or indirectly, also then some of the mental health stuff or anxiety, or some of the social media presence, or that pressure, you know, some of that social piece, it's also social, you know, it's just like all social. And then I think, you know, we also live, as much as we are a real like walkable neighborhood, and it sounds very small, because it's We're just a couple blocks away from all these things. We still live in the city. We still are in the in downtown, not in downtown Seattle. But I mean, truly, we're seven minutes,

Casey O'Roarty 09:28
you're urban.

Julietta Skoog 09:29
We're urban, you know, from the actual downtown, like we are not in the suburbs at all. So there is a lot of, yeah, I think some of the challenges around like navigating the independence and taking busses places, and hopping on the link and going down here. And so all those pieces that they're starting to grow, and what I hear a lot from parents are that concern around safety, you know, and so they almost, like, doubled down on technology and like, what if? And so just one example is, I mean, I think the other piece. Frankly, it's also so relevant and timely. It's just the active school shooters and just the safety in school in general. So yeah, there just feels like there's that energy around seeing, yeah, you know, as our kids developmentally are trying to break away and be more

Casey O'Roarty 10:16
Right, right, right, right, right, right. Well, and I did an interview with Emily shirken, I've done a couple interviews with her. I love her, the screen time consultant. And one of the things she talks about is how we are concerned about safety, and so we go get them phones. And actually, all the ways that, you know, phones increase bullying, and you know, if there is an active shooter and all the kids are on their phones. You know, law enforcement can't, like, there's bandwidth issues. And anyway, I thought that was fascinating. What we and she's like, everybody's worried about their kids being kidnapped, but really, what's happening is we're ruining their mental health for this concern that probably isn't even going to come true. So anyway, listen to that podcast. It's a good one well, and then, you know, it seems like it's such a big leap from elementary to middle school as well. And like I said, everyone, we're gonna get into this screen stuff in a minute. And I went off on screens in my solo show last week too. So be sure to listen to that. I'm talking about the future, though, because I haven't actually recorded it as I record with you, and I'm really hopeful. It's going to be very useful for all of you listeners. But thinking about, you know, especially those of you that have, you know, new middle schoolers, and how it can feel really drastic, the difference between elementary and middle school, the class schedules and how they're moving amongst the spaces and, you know, different groups of kids in every class. I mean, sometimes there's tracking, and there might be some sort of cohort going on, but really, maybe they don't have lunch with their friends, and they're making new friends, and it's a different level of rigor, I think, in middle school than in like, I remember as an elementary school teacher, doing grades and being like, I think you're a three, I'll give you a three. Like, I mean, granted, was like, 1999 and it was a little less rigid. But

Julietta Skoog 12:08
where would you have feature that just like, kind of picks up the stack and it's like, instead of grading it, and then,

Casey O'Roarty 12:13
just like, I know you, I know what you can do, I'll give you a three, maybe a two, but you're still working hard? Yeah, totally. I was not good at grading. So what do you think? What did you find in your experience, and where do you see, like, what are the other things that are jarring, as far as just, I think, the most well intentioned parents, you know, you start the school year and you don't know what you don't know. Like, really thinking about those parents of mid like, new middle schoolers in there their oldest kids.

Julietta Skoog 12:43
Yes,

Casey O'Roarty 12:43
what do you think's jarring?

Julietta Skoog 12:45
Here's what I will because I really did feel this way because we were nodding covid. So I really felt it with the second time around you finished fifth grade, or, let's just say, whatever is that last you know your most of it is fifth grade, and it's like these sweet slideshow and you've been with your little, sweet elementary school for all these years and the little cohort of kids that have grown up, and then all of a sudden you really are like, I have no idea who these teachers are. I have there's six different emails all on one day from six different teachers. And then the administration, there's like, a gazillion emails, you know, and then I think there's like, just the barrage of the calendar, and there's this and there's back to school, and you need this information. So it's almost like it's so much that you're forced to just let go and trust that your kids are tracking, you know, we had last year. I mean, one of our biggest things that vine I get into all the time is this idea of a planner. Okay, so in my land, like, how can you not live without a planner? Like, I don't get planners are the bomb.

Casey O'Roarty 13:54
Yes, I make my own. I'm such a freak that I actually make my own.

Julietta Skoog 13:58
You create your own. I mean, I know you are next level, so, but she's like, Mom, why would I need to plan? Like, what do I need a planner for? And I can't even, like, the gulf between the communication breakdown between the two of us is so like, Where do I even start? Like, where do I even start? Like, why would you need a planner? And yes, we've gotten, like, four different kinds and colors. And, you know, we've tried so many different systems, so just that part of the tracking, and, you know, the Juggle there's also, for some people who are involved in sports like that, is a whole nother level of tryouts. And it turns out that all these kids that are playing, you know, certain select or club sports, and they're all at the same middle school. They're all trying out. It's almost harder. It's almost more competitive at that level. And so it's the first wave of kids really feeling like rejected or not making or having JV or versus, you know, that kind of foray into, like, just the. Start of the next of middle school and then high school, that whole world. And then I think, you know, certainly I work with kids. I mean, I worked in schools for over 15 years. I was at a k8 school for the first five years. But when it's your own kid, you know, and you see the morphine out of their little sweet self. And what I keep reminding myself about is like, this is the age they need to practice decision making, you know, like, and this is what we've been training for. This is what we've been practicing. Like, they've got to start making some mistakes and figuring it out. And, you know, so I think it's that tension that I feel, you know, when you ask, like, what's the most jarring? It's like that tension of letting them mess up, letting them make the mistakes, letting them forget things, or, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 15:50
letting them figure out a system that works for them. I'm cracking up at your planner conversation because, yeah, I'm a freak about my planner. And Ian now is a, you know, three weeks into college, and he was like, I ordered a planner final on Amazon. I'm like, yeah, exactly, finally, you know, but they have to get there, and it is stressful. It's stressful for us, right, all these things that you've mentioned, stressful for us to witness, to let go, and it's stressful for them to be walking these big hallways and figuring things out. And I think a lot of kids do such a good job, you know, the majority of the kids do a great job of holding it together during the school day, trying to keep it cool, you know, not look stressed. And then they get home, right? And some of that, however it's, gets released. It gets released, right? And it might show up as meltdowns or a little bit of smart snark, especially as they're finding their footing at the start of the year, and parents get a little worked up about that, you know, quote, bad attitude, don't they? So I think that's an important thing to bring up, just as we talk about back to middle school, is like, I mean, like you said Seattle's one of the last schools to probably start up. So, you know, people listening are like, yeah, it's been weeks of this. What are your thoughts about that, like after school release that might show up with our younger adolescents and older adolescents,

Julietta Skoog 17:14
yes, and they're starting to take on these new you know, they're so socially influenced we are not an influence anymore. They suddenly have, you know, two other schools at the minimum, that are feeding into this big middle school. There's like, this confluence of kids, you know, and it's like they're meeting all these new kids, and they're picking up these different they're trying on different, like, kind of these and language and, yeah, you know, swear words and all these things. And then Sass, you know that, like, get real sassy, and then it's like, like, there's a whole lot of that that's happening. So then they're absorbing that, like their mirror neurons are just on fire. And then, yeah, they come home after school, and they've been, you know, in six different classes, being six different systems, and it's like, just control, control, control, control. And then here we are being like, you know, what do you have for homework, or what do you have for lunch or pick up your stuff bath? And they explode, yes. So, you know, I mean, for us, we are all about systems, and we also, our whole mantra in our house is that September is the month of grace, and everyone is figuring out a new you know, we're all getting into routines. We're all tired, like, there's just a lot of recognizing this isn't who we are always going to be. And, you know, level into being helpful.

Casey O'Roarty 18:39
I want to pause you, because I think that's so big, right? Like September is a month of grace, normalizing that we're all going to be a little bit of a shit show. My words, not yours, and this isn't how it's always going to be. I think that that is so I remember early, maybe seventh grade, I think it was before we moved, and Ian coming home for like, a whole week, just so grumpy. And I remember thinking to myself, Oh, is this where I lose my son? Like, is this where everything changes? And, you know, like, because I had talked and coached and worked with so many people who's, you know, like, oh, the boys, you know, they kind of shift and they pull away. And I was in such a panic about it. And it was, it was just September.

Julietta Skoog 19:18
Yeah, just September. This is where also I am about and you and I, you know, we're so steeped in the positive disciplines, tools and systems. My big thing is let routines be the boss. You know, make agreements together. What is the collaboration, right? So when bias, like attached her iPad instead of being like, What the hell do you think you're doing? Get off your you know. Or my worst last week, when she's literally cutting. She's holding, I know we're listening to a punishment. She's holding a yellow pepper and cutting it into her hand, like with a knife. I'm just like, dumb, like, what are you thinking? Instead of the connection before correction, which is, like, here's a pretty. Responsible kid adding healthy bell peppers to her lunch. And instead of me being like, ah, like, you know, connect first. Like, wow, that looks like a super healthy addition. And I'm wondering what would be a safer, you know, way to cut it up, I just like, go hardcore into her, you know, like, criticize and nag.

Julietta Skoog 20:21
That being said, right? Like, so instead of, you know, saying, like, Get off her iPad or stop giving them bell pepper, that way, just really leaning into, what is our agreement, you know, and so for that, specifically, because she doesn't have a phone, she does have an iPad at home. And so we have really clear agreements. Where are I said, What was our agreement? I don't actually, I said, Honestly, I don't really remember, like, what is it and but we hadn't written it out. We'd actually typed it out. And so just even getting that back together and saying, what did we agree on after school? What makes sense for after school? What are the things that need to be done before friends can come over, or so that they can come over after school or before you're ready for your activity. What is the plan for homework? You know? I mean, I think those conversations for some parents, I feel like are just so afraid, or they walk on eggshells around it, but like you have to get in the mix with them. You know, even if the school year is already the train's already left the station, it's never too late. I mean, we're tapping back into that constantly, of like, what is the expectations for after school? What did we agree on for after school? You know?

Casey O'Roarty 21:28
Yeah,

Julietta Skoog 21:29
basic,

Casey O'Roarty 21:29
yeah.

Julietta Skoog 21:30
That stretch their comfort, and I think, or stretch their like, the, I think, the muscles, of like, Yes, I'm exhausted. Yes, I'm so tired. Yes, I'm walking in the door, and I just want to zone out. And that's the edge. That's actually the growth edge that you get. I know that's hard, and you still get to unpack your backpack, crank out one particular homework thing, you know, get your bag cleaned up, ready for whatever it is the activity. And then, yes, absolutely, yes. That's hard. It's supposed to be hard, yeah?

Casey O'Roarty 22:02
And it's not a character flaw when they kind of moan and groan about it like we're leading them to that growth edge and expecting them to ride it. Yeah? Right. I love you guys are such a hardcore systems family. It's super inspiring. And like, when I think about that, I think about those systems really are scaffolding, right? I talk a lot, and you all listening have heard me talk about this million times energetic responsibility and how much we take on as ours, and what we have to do to get them to do the things, or blah, blah, blah, we have all these stories around why we're holding the responsibility, or we might not even realize that that's what we're doing. And this is such, I mean, you know, the ideal is the handing over has happened since the beginning, right? And slowly you get to hand over, hand over, and now they're in middle school, and you're at a new level. And you know, for some parents, it is a big jump from elementary to middle and that energetic responsibility and what to hand over, because it wasn't six emails, it was one newsletter, and we read it, and we showed up in class and we volunteered and we knew, you know, just like you said, we knew all the families. And now we feel a little bit like in middle school years. It can feel a little bit like a free fall for us parents as well, and this is when we get to hand things over while building and keeping in mind scaffolding. So I want to talk about that a little bit more and go deeper with you, because I noticed that when people hear letting some things go or letting go of the energetic responsibility, they're really in that binary of either I'm going to be supportive or I'm just going to witness and there's all this space in between. When we are talking about that, we're not saying like, Yeah, I'm out good luck, see on the other side, but more of just like, Okay, we're gonna build a scaffolding, right, energetic scaffolding around our kids. And as they continue to get older and build skills and practice skills and live on that growth edge, it starts to fall away. So that, you know, when your kids are my kids age, and they launch, yay. You know, they've got enough skill to keep them afloat for all the other growth edges that are going to show up where we're not available and we're not there to say, hey, let's create an agreement around this, or a system around this. And so let's break down what that can look like in a few areas. I want to talk about, like, the school, schoolwork, grades. I want to talk about friendship is these are things that come up with my people. And like you already mentioned, extracurricular and keep your you know, like, are you ready to leave the house to go do your thing? And then we'll get into some screen stuff. Okay, so first and foremost, let's talk about, like, grades and schoolwork and homework, right? Supporting them with their teachers, helping them be advocates while not, you know, micromanaging and taking over. So what are some of the systems? What do you do?

Julietta Skoog 24:56
I mean, the schools nowadays, they are setting. These students up for success. So I think the best thing that you can do as a parent is number one, like, go to curriculum night, you know, and if you can't go to curriculum night, like, get in there, meet those teachers. Like, truly read the emails and really think of it as like a collaboration with your kid. So I don't try to pretend like I am some expert with my middle school, like I am, like, tell me about this. I don't even know what this is. This doesn't mean what project is this. I don't even know what's going on here. When you tell me about that, you know. And if she's like, No, Mom, it's fine. I got it. And I'll say, I trust you, awesome. The teacher just sent me this email and so and asked me to ask you about it, but it sounds really interesting. You know, we'll like mellow it out in terms of the intensity, but ultimately, in terms of grades and things, there is a bit of that swinging from one trapeze to the next for that first semester or first quarter that it is, you know, where they really have to just kind of experience it and where they land, you know, when you're on top of it from the very beginning, and it's hard because you don't really actually know what they need. So I think the two buckets that I go into with grades are the things that are a weekly like for a teacher, that's like, we always have this packet due on Mondays, right? Or we always have this due on Fridays or whatever. And so there's something like that. Then there's the other ones where it's like, participation really matters, or it's just this one particular project that's really important. And so those sort of touchstones for me, I don't feel like the rest, I don't really care about. I don't need to go really deep into, like, all the nitty gritty everything. But if I know this one particular packet is always due on Wednesday, then I'm going to check in on Monday about that, you know, and just that. And I might say, For by it's this one Japanese packet that's always due. I might just say, like, how are you doing? Do you need any support with that? Or are you good to go? And sometimes she's like, Oh, I totally forgot about, you know. So it's just that one little touch point that I feel like can be helpful for kids, for things like studying for a test or, you know, flashcard. Sometimes I'll be like, if you need me to walk through flashcards, I'm here if you need me or whatever. But otherwise that kind of stuff, they have to experience that. They have to experience that. Wow. How did that work out for you? I noticed that you said you didn't need to study because you took the pretest. Or I noticed that you I use that kind of language like, I noticed that you studied worked really hard. Like, you actually really studied for that, and then this is what an end to that? How do you feel about that? So I try to stay more curious about the grade stuff. I don't care, like, it's more of just supporting them with some of the like, workflow, yeah, that. I think they do need a scaffold they are coming from, you know, one to two, classes to six, and so just for that piece, but in terms of, like, what their quality is, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 27:46
Middle School is just such an experiment.

Julietta Skoog 27:48
It's an experiment, exactly.

Casey O'Roarty 27:50
And I love it. Wait. I guys have to say this, because it came to mind. I love it when parents, of like, seventh graders were like, they've been such good students. They've really cared about school. I'm like, when in third grade, like in elementary school, there's been this drastic shift since elementary school. Like, you can't compare, you know, this level of schooling to what just happened in elementary school. Like, it's so different. And I just wanted to pause you, because, like, there's this feeling it out that is happening in middle school. And yeah, the space to know. And I remembering an interview I did with Jessica Leahy years ago, who said a similar thing. She was like, whether it's a, you know, 95% or a 65% or a 35% Oh, what'd you do to get that like, What helped you along? Yes, right? Or what you know, what would you do differently and neutral, right? Regardless of what the greatest and triggering that self reflection around like, oh, yeah, what did I do? What did I do that was useful, right? And what did I do that maybe could have been more?

Julietta Skoog 28:52
We really say this in positive is fun, this idea of curiosity, questions, you know, asking, then the growth mindset angle that, just like he is so written so much about, is that part of like, how can we hold up this mirror? Because as soon as we get in the way, as soon as it becomes about us and what we think, then it gets tainted. You know, it really has to stay within them. And I overheard, think it was my high schoolers, but or high schoolers that came over for lunch, the kids were saying that they would rather, you know, because so much of it is, like, who's in your class also, right? So then they talk about whether the topic, it doesn't matter about the topic, it's really about the teacher. Like they were really saying, we have the coolest this teacher that makes it so interesting. That's what makes it so great, you know what I mean? And that is so far out of my control of their relationship with this other teacher I just have to trust and let them have that experience of how this material is landing for them. I mean, I remember last year by was like, so excited about this history textbook. Like she was like, wow, there was like, so much cool stuff in there, but they ended up getting this sub. For like, part of the year, and you could just see her sparkle go down, you know about it? I mean, I just get to sort of note it, you know? We just get to hold that up for them so that then when they start to make these future decisions, because it is so neutral, like you're seeing, you could just say, Oh, I noticed that teacher actually is doing this other program. And you really loved that, like, just sort of guiding. I mean, I think there's some guiding there, sure, as opposed to this, like freak out or panic. And especially for sixth grade, it really doesn't mean the grades don't map. You know, is like, it really is just like in kindergarten, you're letting them figure out and getting the executive functioning and the confidence and to still keep a little bit of that spark or that joy for learning, that's what matters, you know, as opposed to just like the greater the score.

Casey O'Roarty 30:46
Yeah, what about systems with homework? And what's been useful for you that you can share?

Julietta Skoog 30:53
I mean, we are in the world, and I know there's other private schools that are much more heavy in terms of homework, but it's pretty light, I would say, in middle school. I mean, it gets us to, you know, a little bit more seventh and finally, in eighth grade. But because of that, we don't have to be on them for so much, you know, there isn't as much coming home. And so then the stuff that does, we just make sure that when you say systems of support, it really is just like, Dude, you get all of your homework done, right? We keep it very general. Mostly it's like, Oh, yep, I'm totally done. But when you always hold that, have that placeholder that is the connected and firm at the same time, right? Our firmness, and follow through with that is when there is homework, it gets done. The tricky part for parents is they're like, Well, I had no idea. I don't even know. Yeah, exactly No. So you do have to be able to figure out and navigate the for us, it's called the source. Everyone has a different annoying, oh, the portal, Portal. You know, you got to get in there. You have to get in there. I mean, there is a bit of advocacy that if there's a teacher that's not really posting, that you are sending that email and just saying, Hey, I'm just checking the source, or whatever it is, is there some source? It's funny that it's called the source, I know so heavy. I mean, I've so far for the first two rounds of kids, I haven't had to. I know my third is going to be a whole nother Hall of wax, as their fatalities are so different. That being said, you know, there was other times with my middle where we like, in fact, during covid, where it like, turned out there was a whole project. I mean, she burst into tears and was like, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing, but it was like, It's due on Monday, and I haven't. We've had two weeks, I don't even know, yeah, I mean, you know, we're all gonna have those, like, times when kids are breaking down, or there's been that miscommunication. But I think going back to the system, you still hold that space,

Casey O'Roarty 32:40
right? You said that. You said, hold that space. And you said, placeholder. So what does that mean to you? Is that, like, if there's homework, it gets done during this window, that's what that means.

Julietta Skoog 32:51
That's right,

Casey O'Roarty 32:51
okay?

Julietta Skoog 32:52
And then there are some, you know, the place that we had flexibility with that used to be that was our I mean, when you talk about practicing, we practice that in elementary school so that we're ready in middle school. Because all elementary school, we would come home and say, Okay, we're going to sit down and do your homework, even if it's that quote, unquote, 20 minutes of reading or it's just that wonderful leftover mapping, you know, very small. So it didn't seem so new than in middle school. Now that being said, You got to be flexible, right? You got to roll and change. Things are obviously going to evolve. So for us, it turned out that kids come over after school, and I love that. I want them to play outside and be kids. So I'm not gonna be like, come in. You have to do your homework before your friends can, you know, play with your friends. So then we had to have a family meeting and our own agreement around that. Okay, so when your friends come then what is the plan? When is it gonna get done, and then we just have the marker if things aren't getting done, then We'll reevaluate if it's not working for Yeah. So yeah, that as like, we trust you first that it's not going to be too overwhelming. We had a couple of instances, like on a Sunday, the Sunday meltdown. We call it, you know, where it's just like, I'm just overwhelmed in my room, the mouth and homework, and then we're like, Great, then we'll take a pause this week ahead without friends over after school, so that you have some space to catch up, which is what we do in real life too, right? Yeah, we just gotta, like, scale it back, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 34:12
yeah, which is so different than your room's a mess and you're behind in school, so you can't have any friends over this week.

Julietta Skoog 34:18
Exactly? That's exactly, right? It's the intention of, like, what would be helpful some more time? And, yeah, great. Where can we find that? Because, yeah, we already committed to soccer and piano and all this, you know, the other stuff. So, like, Great, let's just like, and there were some tough times because of that, because it wasn't punitive, that she just took over for herself. She was like, I need Wednesdays to myself. I actually realized, like, I don't want my friends coming over on Wednesdays. On Wednesday. It's like, I need a hot space for people. I just want to chill out. I'm just, yeah, exactly like, pay attention to what resources so yeah. I mean, I think the whole vibe for middle school is about that. It's like, yeah, exploring. Is this working for us? Mm, hmm. Yeah, both for me as a parent and for you, you know, yeah, he's had a whole thing about sleepovers, where the resentment in me came bubbled up of like, guess what? You are more than welcome to have someone to the night, but I am not responsible for making everybody pancakes and get up early and do the whole thing. So you are responsible if you have a guest to feed them in the morning, and I just left it out there. And Casey, I slept, I mean, slept in, quote, unquote, slept in whatever, till the night came down. They were so proud of themselves. They had made waffles. They had made waffles for the other sisters friends who had slept over like she totally heard me and yeah, took it on, you know. So I think there's things like you were like, We're figuring out our like relationship also, and what feels respectful for both of us so and it was not perfectly done, like my this sleepover conversation was definitely, you know, it got a little naggy, but the result was, here's actually, I'll tell you the real truth. We started getting into it. Then she shuts down, goes to her sister, starts talking shit about me. So then I go in, and I'm like, No, get back out here. You don't just, like, talk about, like, say it to my face. Then we got to a place of more connection and our why and what, and that piece where I was like, let's try this. I don't want to say no until you can show me. It's like, let's try this. Let's just try this place of respectful, you know, level of responsibility, because I want you to have friends spending the night all the time. That's great.

Casey O'Roarty 36:31
Yeah, I just don't want to be super bugged about the whole thing. I was a really bad sleepover mom. My tolerance was very small. Anyway, we don't have to go there, so, but this does lead us into, like, friendships and middle school specific. That's the other big thing that comes up with parents I work with, is just the friend drama that can happen. Oftentimes screens are involved. But again, we're gonna talk about screens in a second. But you know, it is that shift from this small, maybe core group of friends, where you know the parents into you. Don't know the parents, but you know that there's drama, and maybe your kids sharing with you. Maybe they're not, maybe you're monitoring, and you're kind of seeing some things, or you're feeling it out. What does it look like for you? Middle school age, your involvement in there, and how do we support them in their advocacy for themselves? What's the appropriate way?

Julietta Skoog 37:28
I don't know if this is appropriate, but I'll tell you what I had to do for myself. You know, I think we create just like I coach my parents with toddlers and preschoolers. We're creating this as we go along with our kids. Yeah, we're discovering what feels mutually respectful, and what are healthy limits and boundaries, and, you know, places to grow. So for me, with the social piece, there was always a new kid, right? And they come in and out, and the new shiny so, and like, My rule is I need to have a parent's name and last name. I need to have a phone number. I need to have the name of the kid if you're going to this other I can't just be like, if you're going to the house, right? The new friends coming over, great. I need to know their last name. I need to have one parent's contact information. That means, yes, you actually have to awkwardly ask your friend for your parents phone number. You know, I have to make contact with them. This isn't the same for high school, necessarily now, but because we got to practice this all through middle school, we built this trust with my oldest my middle now, that's just our rule, right? We've got to have a name, we've got to have a phone number. I've got to have one contact point with the parent. But then other than that, we go back to the whole I noticed. So the curiosity questions, how was that for you? And when things start happening, have you navigated that at all, or massively easy? And I mean, having gone through with my oldest, like, seventh grade was so bananas, like, I keep wanting to tell our current seventh grade parents, in fact, that just reminds me I probably should send them a text. Like, buckle up, because it gets really ugly and like, one day you're in, one day you're out, you're in the Text group. Now you're out, you are included in this, you know, lunch, or whatever it's. There are such high highs and low lows. And I happened to just look at some texts for my oldest when she was navigating. And I was like, oh my god, I couldn't believe the things that she was saying to this other girl. Like, hardcore. I mean, yes, she was standing up for herself and being assertive and confident. And I was like, Wow, are you sure you want to say that? Okay, let's see how that lands. Yeah. And I think it's because it's not really the friends from elementary school. It's that there's this mix up, right? And so they get into these shiny new mixes of groups and meeting people, and they get real close, and then they burn out, though there is, it's that like kind of piece. And like, I think about you and I, when we had that experience with our favorite Dr Shefali, when we heard her speak in Abu Dhabi,

Casey O'Roarty 40:07
are we talking? Do we get to mention it?

Julietta Skoog 40:10
And when she talked about how, like, parents care so much about keeping our kids happy, right? Or if they're grumpy with, like, you know, how dare you be grumpy, or how dare you be in a bad mood, or, you know, and I think part of that middle school is like, really, like you said, letting go to that energetic responsibility of their experience and their moods, like they are going to feel so deeply like, I mean, they just are going to be so crushed and hurt and confused and angry. I mean, really big emotions. And so yeah, as a parent, you have got to get okay with that. You've got to get comfortable. Gotta build your tolerance. Build up your tolerance. It's not about you. It is not about you. And so much as parents like, like, we start responding in that way, or just find them, smooth it over or numb. And especially, I think, well, I won't make any stereotypes, but you know, we've got to let them have some rain. We've got to let them have those feelings. And I think when you know, for our family, again, going back to the systems, we talk about, like, where is the healthy place to do that? What are the coping skills? What are the things that not numb or push away the feelings, but actually, like, allow us to therapeutically, really feel them, really process them. Where's the pause? Where's the space, where's the journaling? Are you going to go for a walk? Are you going to borrow the neighbor's dog to have a little therapy, Sash, you know, and walk around the neighborhood? Like, where is your brain right now? Is this a good time to solve problems? Are you or do you need to, like, really not respond to this friend and take that pause until you're calm enough to respond, yeah, so just really meeting them with the like, I get it that sounds really unfair. That must have been so humiliating, or how embarrassing. You know,

Casey O'Roarty 41:53
I'm not hearing you say, call the mom.

Julietta Skoog 41:55
Oh, god. Oh my god. Casey people tell me this, should I just, like, email the parent. No, yeah, oh my god, no. Like, yeah. I mean, just hold that. And it's so awkward when you see the parents, you know, and you just know your kids went through it, but you've got to just yeah, let them yeah, when you can there's definitely, I've needed to do some guiding around, like, how to respond, how to text, would that land when you say it that way? What if you said it this way?

Casey O'Roarty 42:26
Some practicing, you know, for the IRL exchanges, for sure,

Julietta Skoog 42:31
yep. And then, you know, I think when I can already hear the Yeah, but like, my kid won't talk to me, or I don't know what's going on, or they're just shutting down. You know, you still get to get in the mix. And I've had many of my students that were on my caseload like that. You know that I'm having an experience session with and I still get to just say, even if they're not telling me everything, you know, I can just say, like, I sense that you're having a really hard time right now. You know that just must feel so heavy, like I'm just holding this space. And I think that part two in middle school, like they still need our physical presence. You know, even if you're just, like, going in for the awkward hug and I you just are, like, I love you so much, and I can't be taller than me right now. You know, I mean just that, like we say in positive discipline, like, do the messages of love get through?

Casey O'Roarty 43:17
Yes, proximity matters, even if you're just sitting on the edge of their bed. I remember many times going in and just saying, I'm just gonna sit here for one minute. I just want to be close to you for one minute to Rowan before she was like, Okay, get out, because a lot of the friendship drama, like you even said, texting and group chats and in and out and all this stuff. So let's go in, like, this screen stuff. And like I said, I'm gonna be recording a podcast that's gonna come out in a couple days, but it'll be a few days before this conversation. But you know, talking about the screens, I mean, I feel like I'm so over talking about screens, but it is. You can't have a conversation about parenting without talking about screens, because it's crazy pants and you have managed to do what so many people haven't done. You mentioned it earlier. You have a seventh grader who does not have a phone, and you're one of the final holdouts. So talk about that. Talk about what your family's rules are.

Julietta Skoog 44:13
Well, we did the wait till eighth movement, and so that just became our rule. And then it's great, because then, since the older one was that way, then she's like, well, no way Is anyone else getting it before eighth grade. So then we get her back into, you know, and really what it looks like is at the end of that summer before eighth grade, like, once you are done with seventh grade, then you're technically an eighth grader. So they got it that summer before eighth grade. So here's what I will say, and social media too, or just, oh, we just did for no social media until high school, and then we had a whole negotiable on ramp around that, and what it looked like, and picking one. And yes, I'll have to go back into my memory bank and think about where Snapchat happened. I think that was in I know I see your look. I mean, I think that might have been.

Casey O'Roarty 45:00
I used to say something about Snapchat, because it comes up all the time, and it seems to be the entry. It seems like a lot of people start there. So Ian's, you know, away at school, and he doesn't always respond to texts because he has like, 300 unopened texts. I don't know what his deal is with text, but I'm like, Babe, I just want you to respond. Do I need to get on Snapchat? And he said, Yeah, you do Yeah. And so I said, Okay, so I'm on Snapchat now. It's been like a month, or no, like three weeks, and I only Snapchat with Ian, but the app is continuously telling me who is adding me and who in my contacts is on Snapchat. And it's just like a continuous like, hey, check out these stories. I'm looking for the off button to all this extra stuff for me as a 50 year old for the next few days. Anyway, having to ignore the apps aggressive. Sucking me in is hard. I can't even imagine. I mean, for a 12 year old, you're just like, Oh, great. And the next thing you know, like, there's a reason that there's sex

Julietta Skoog 46:05
and you know that you technically, you're not allowed on, I mean, it's a 13 and older app.

Casey O'Roarty 46:10
Oh, I know I was aware when I said 12 year old,

Julietta Skoog 46:12
yeah. So we waited till eight in quotes, yes, before that, though, as we were saying, kids are still on an iPad, being able to message each other, right, right? So what I appreciated is having that little bit of a window that we could practice through the iPad. What are appropriate messages? What are right when you have it put away and not so it didn't feel like a real cold, you know? She didn't have any communication at all, sure. And then we're also able to do that, as I said, because we are a couple blocks from school. So I get that for other people who live far away, or there's different commutes or different situations. I think every family gets to make their own decision for sure and what makes sense for them, and whether you know what their after school looks like, and communication all that for us, we were able to do that. And so it was really important to me that if I could, that we would hold back, because it is true that once that is out of the box, once they are in it, there's no going back. And I really, really have loved watching both the kids preserve a little bit of their childhood. There is still, like my middle, she still had this summer where it's like our oldest was age, like, I feel like she's like reclaiming her childhood, like she was lived in that imagination land and did more play and wrote stories and things like this. Like, you just are able to be bored. You're able to find projects, you're able to just be so that was also really important to me. So we went to eighth, and then we did Snapchat. Was that now that I'm remembering, because it felt like a text, it felt like that was the communication, but no social media Instagram until later on, and then that was a whole nother conversation and collaboration and like guardrails, also in terms of what you're posting or not posting or following or not, but really, like, in the end, what I really appreciated was these, a lot of these conversations, it wasn't like your father and I have decided you're not having a thing like we were, like, you tell us what, what it means to here's where we're coming from. Like we are all about brain development and maximizing the potential of, like, what you have, like, you are, you know, we'd say these are good, yeah, especially your brain cells are everything. Like, we're just, it's the same reason we wanted you to wear a helmet and, you know, riding a bike, and why you we don't give you a beer right now. Like, we care about your brain cells. So it's not that we're being like, you know, trying to make your life miserable. Like, this is where we're coming from. And so let's together, then creating these agreements and guidelines. And we've just gone through iteration after iteration. They just continue to evolve. And I just am a real Stickler, like when I have your first draft of a of a contract in writing, then it's a yes, but let's start there. So when we took a detox, I think from even the iPad, because I think I saw, you know, VI was like, oh my god, I just can't stop the next episode kept going and going and going. So I was like, well, we'll just put it away, and when you have, you know, another new round of our agreements, we'll bring it back out. So yeah, I think for us, you know, because of that social, like flurry within the phone piece, it is, of course, like, important for them to be connected. We don't want them to be disconnected, but we are very mindful of holding up that mirror for them to say, do you notice? Like, how does it make you feel? What is coming up for you that, like, anxiousness, or I have to or I just heard a that's actually a sign that is actually fun, that your brain is wiring towards that, and so it's okay to feel that tension and not get it. It's like a toddler, like it's okay to want that cookie and not get it right now,

Casey O'Roarty 49:51
yeah. And then the conversation is around, like, how we manage that feeling exactly right. And I think too, you know what? I. Know about you, and what I'm hearing you speak into is just how much you've normalized holding up the mirror. And anybody that's listening can do this okay, even if you're like, Oh my God, this first podcast I've ever listened to in my life, and I've never done any of these things before, like, start today, you know, acknowledge, like, we don't really talk about our screen use, and we need to, and we need to, because there's all this stuff that's happening. I mean, I'm doing a workshop tonight in my membership around screens, and it's this both and of Yes, limits, please. Limits everyone, like there's no world where your kid is super special and doesn't need limits, because I'm 50 and I've got an app on my phone that shuts down apps on my phone because I can't do it myself, because I'm have my own issues, so limits, but also building skills. And at the top of the list is that what you just said like self reflection, being able to recognize

Julietta Skoog 50:58
top two when we hold up, what do you notice about this particular friend that is always has their face glued, right? Or has like, message their parent right away? Like, what does that say about that, you know? I mean, or, what about like, the friends that, like, don't want to participate, like, don't want to go have fun or go actually do things, right? Kids will say this. They'll be like, you know, I want to just go, like, actually do something, not just sit back and like, kind of be on the like, Let's go explore. Let's get out there. Let's go somewhere, you know, yeah, so I think there's that part too, of just helping them look at the pool that they're swimming in. And what do they notice about the differences in kids that they find influential or interesting or fun, you know. And what is their use around technology, too? So, yeah, it is evolving rapidly. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 51:48
it is, you know. And we're talking about phones. I know there's families that are struggling with kids. Who are, you know, that's just never ending video games. But you know what you've been on before to talk about, which I think is really important, which is firmness, you know, and being able to tolerate that they're disappointed that there's a certain size window to be on technology, and then there's the rest of your life, right

Julietta Skoog 52:13
throughout the parents that are like, Oh, I don't want them to feel like they are. They're not the same as the other, or they're not getting what the other kids are, and I am like, explore that. What part of that in yourself, that that is more of a worry for you? Like, what message is that sending about having to, quote, unquote, fit in or be accepted or, you know? I mean, I think there's some exploration around that, and the strength and the confidence, you know? I will say too, it is again, just like the early years, how it goes by so fast. It is, like, honestly, they can be uncomfortable for one more year not having a phone. It's okay. Like, it's going to be a hard year for by and as I said to her, and you'll be fine. I trust you. I trust in You, you know,

Casey O'Roarty 52:59
yeah, you're gonna be okay, and parent, you're gonna be okay. Like, you're gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. But it's too important our kids mental health and anything we're misusing is a problem.

Julietta Skoog 53:15
I'm hearing parents are might be listening to this and being like, Well, my kid has the phone and they're in sixth grade. So what are you saying? And I think it's what you were saying about like, it's the misuse, it's just being honest, having family meetings once a week, saying, let's talk about it. Does this make sense for us? Is this within our value? What are we noticing about our communication? What are we noticing about our meals together? What are we noticing about our time together? What are we noticing about the minute? Any habit, anything that you feel like you have to take a look at that. Just take a just note. Yeah, is that serving you, you know? And is that serving, ultimately, for your middle schooler, those life skills that you want them to have when they're headed off, like into college or to going on, you know, ultimately, habits start now, you know? And yes, we're also modeling that for our kids too. I mean, middle schoolers are the kings and queens of hypocrisy. When they're like, oh, oh, you're telling me, like, you know? I mean, they will call you on all of your stuff. It's a chance. I think when you approach it in that way, let's, all of us take a look at this. Let's, let's take a look at habits. And where are we all wanting to grow? I think that's going to be received, you know? Or it does.

Casey O'Roarty 54:29
Yeah, yeah. There's so much more I want to talk about with this. It's such a rabbit hole. And I'm looking at the time middle school, back to middle school, seeing all of you, parents of middle schoolers, you're doing great, and hang in there. You know where to find Julietta and I, before I let you go though Jules both of us have, speaking of you know where to find us. We both have six week classes coming up. So will you talk a little bit? I know a lot of my listeners have younger kids as well. To talk about yours, and I'll say a little bit about mine.

Julietta Skoog 55:02
Yeah, this is the place I have parents of littles all the way through elementary school, and I call it boot camp. It's just this nice course correction of positive discipline principles that just immediately, I mean, I this is how it is in your class, too. Case like you feel seen, you feel held, and it's just that reboot of within your family. So even if you feel like things are fine, it's like that chance to get even stronger, you know, and then if or, and if you feel like, oh my gosh, I'm dealing with like, massive challenges right now, like huge emotional mood swings or sleep issues or tantrums, or they're just like, so rude around, like everything, or they won't participate in activities, or, you know, and if there's any of those, just specific challenges that are popping up, this is the place to get tools, get support, and you don't have to live like that. I tell parents, you know, if you are struggling or really challenged, there is help like there are tools. There are things that you can do. You are not stuck, you know. And I think benefit of showing up to a class is that, at least for me, because I need the accountability, just by showing up, there is change in motion. You know, it's not like you have to actually create something or do something just by showing up and being a part of this group for six different sessions. It's a two hour session. It's live on Zoom, just by logging on, you Casey, and I hold that space for parents, that change is affected honestly. I mean, just by showing up, because it's experiential, we're around other parents, you're going to hear things in a different way, and so you are going to be changed, you know, you are going to be that shift that then invites a different behavior, invites a different relationship with your child and parenting partner.

Casey O'Roarty 56:49
Yeah, and your class starts tomorrow, the 17th.

Julietta Skoog 56:51
The 17th? Yes, hop in right now.

Casey O'Roarty 56:54
Hop in. My class. Juliet and I do it. It's the same class. Our audiences are just different. So mine is more focused on, well, no, it's focused on all the same stuff, sleep issues, tantrums like and it's parents of adolescence. So it's there are some shifts in the the way that things are presented, in the experientials and the communication. But you know, it's positive discipline. It's showing up, like Julieta just said, and being willing to try something new that can make a big impact on the current dynamic in your house or and it's like jewel said that boot camp, that leveling up, that solidifying you know what you're doing, and and doing it ever better, more consistently. So my class starts on the 24th so we'll make sure that there's links in the show notes for both of those. If you're feeling like you want some support with your youngers, Jules is your girl. And if you've got those olders and you want some support, come see me. I love you so much. I'm so glad for the work that we do. Tell people where they can find you in the places.

Julietta Skoog 57:59
Come on over to besproutable.com. On social media. It's at beastable. And I've got private coaching join my class, for sure. And then we also have, for our elementary and our preschoolers and toddlers, this awesome online self paced so if you're more of a go at my own, you know, watch my own videos. Do it on my own time. I have a great elementary seminar series, and then a really awesome preschool and toddler video series that shows real kids in action with the tools also. So that's also a place where you can get support. And we've got great blogs, and also a great YouTube too,

Casey O'Roarty 58:33
yes, yes, yes, yes. And if you're thinking like, Oh, I wish I woulda when I had my younger kids, my guess is you probably have people in your life with younger kids, so do them the solid and send them juliettas direction and be a part of making the world a better place with us. Yay. I love you. Thank you for hanging with me

Julietta Skoog 58:54
Thank you so much. You're the best. I just adore you.

Casey O'Roarty 59:03
Thank you so much for listening in today. Thank you to my sproutable partners, as well as Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for all the support with getting this show out there and making it sound good. Check out our offers for parents with kids of all ages, and sign up for our newsletter to stay [email protected] tune back in later this week for our Thursday show, and I'll be back with another interview next Monday. Peace, you.

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