Eps 85: Free Range Parenting with Kim Estes

What does Joyful Courage mean to you?

Joyful courage means to me to be able to parent courageously even if it’s uncomfortable, but at the end of the day, having something that feels good for everybody even if it’s the smallest success.

 

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 85

Hey, podcast listeners, how's it going? Welcome back to the show. This is Casey overardi, your podcast hostess with the mostest, and I am thrilled to invite you into another really powerful conversation that I had with a dear friend who's local to the Seattle area. Her name is Kim Estes. She is one of the driving forces behind savvy parents, Safe Kids, and our topic for today is free range parenting. I think there are a lot of misconceptions around what free range parenting is and isn't, and Kim and I are gonna dive into it and explore it and talk about some of the controversy, controversy that has shown up in the media around what it means to give our kids some freedom. And just like everything that I offer here on the podcast, it is an invitation for you to listen and decide what you want to take away, what you want to leave behind. Like I mentioned, I really appreciate Kim's point of view. She is someone who speaks around the area about safety and how to arm our kids with tools and skills so that they can navigate their world in a way that keeps them safe. So I'm really excited to share this conversation with all of you. I'm excited. I can't wait to hear your feedback and to hear what you think about this topic. So you want to meet Kim.

Hi there, Kim. Welcome back to the podcast.

Kim Estes 2:15
Hi Casey, so glad to be back.

Casey O'Roarty 2:18
You were here talking safety back in episode six, that was almost two years ago. Isn't that crazy? It

Kim Estes 2:25
is crazy. I think about how much my kids have changed in two years, and how much their safety needs have changed, right?

Casey O'Roarty 2:31
Oh man, please remind the listeners about how you work with parents.

Kim Estes 2:38
So I go to schools and community events and anywhere where parents gather and are frustrated or maybe concerned or have questions about the safety of their kids. And it could be anything from preschool parents that are figuring out how to identify body parts for their kids and talk about body safety all the way up through middle and high school, where you've got parents navigating the internet and home alone and anything like that, that would be, you know, of concern, because our kids needs are changing all the time. So I go out and talk to them and assure them and give them some great tools and and it's, it's great thing to do. I love it. Awesome.

Casey O'Roarty 3:18
Yay. Well, today we're going to talk about free range parenting, about what it is and what it isn't. And so I, in preparation, you know, I looked it up on Wikipedia,

Kim Estes 3:32
because as we, as we do a lot of things in life, what does that mean? Yeah. And

Casey O'Roarty 3:37
so the definition, according to Wikipedia, is the concept of raising children in the spirit of encouraging them to function independently in proper accordance of their age development with a reasonable acceptance of realistic personal risks.

Kim Estes 3:57
I love it, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 3:58
I kind of love it too. I love it, yeah. How would you when when parents come to you, and I don't know, do parents come to you and say, What do you think about this? What is free range parenting? Do they ask you about free range parenting? It feels like it was kind of a hot topic, but that we haven't heard much about it.

Kim Estes 4:13
Well, I do get that, and it's kind of funny because it for a while it almost seemed like a bad word. You know, it was a bad way to describe parenting, because I think that they felt like they were going to be judged for letting their kids, you know, go out and do independent things in the neighborhood or whatever. And of course, you know, media and the internet and having access to all that information really will they will find, like, odd, random, scary examples of some poor person who let their kid walk to the park and then they were arrested and went to CPS or something insane thing. So like, parents got really afraid and they didn't want to let their kids do things, which is interesting, because a lot of times when we parent. To our kids, we look back on our own experiences, and I don't know about you, but I had great childhood experiences talking, you know, out with my friends, out in the yard, out in the neighborhood, riding our bikes. And I want that for my kids so but I think people are starting to turn that around a little bit, and they're becoming more comfortable with it, and it's not viewed as negatively. And I personally think it's a great thing, because our kids are wanting to explore their world, and it's our job teaching how to do it safely,

Casey O'Roarty 5:29
yeah, and so it's one of the many parenting philosophies that can be misunderstood, right? We were talking about that before I hit record. Yes, assumptions can show up when we aren't educated enough in the concept, and we see it like, basically, oh, just let the kids do whatever they want. Just let them do whatever they want. Just let them suffer the consequences, you know,

Kim Estes 5:54
just, you know, run on the freeway,

Casey O'Roarty 5:58
right? And I and it shows up a lot as well, in the conversation around positive parenting, and I'm not hearing you say, let them run on the freeway.

Kim Estes 6:08
No. So why does it have to be all or nothing, right? It's,

Casey O'Roarty 6:11
it is? It's that pendulum switch, that pendulum swing that's so extreme. So what would you say if the conversation is going to be around boundaries, because I think that's what that's where everybody's head goes, is it's either super rigid boundaries or no boundaries at all, right? And so when we're talking about the free range parent philosophy, what would you say boundaries look like in that conversation for kids?

Kim Estes 6:39
It's a great question, because I think it looks different in every kid, and I think that we used to refer to it as street smarts. Kids had street smarts, and you got more savvy as you got older, because you had more experience your range of being able to roam around your neighborhood grew so I think it's like it's each age and stage. Clearly, you're not going to let a four year old, you know, go and really far from home, unsupervised. That's that's a very high risk decision. But, I mean, that's a perfectly acceptable and normal thing for, say, a 1012, 13 year old. So it's going to look differently with each kid. And, you know, it can look differently within each kid within a family. I mean, we all have that sibling who, you know was just crazy, maybe didn't abide by the boundaries or whatever rules that your parents set, and then there's other kids that are total rule followers. So you know, I mean, again, it's not a one size fits all. It's not an all or nothing thing. Parents have to excuse and exercise great common sense, but teaching kids to be street smart, you know, what is your name? What are your parents? Name and Address? Where do you live? Do you know how to cross the street safely and look both ways? You know? Do you know not to approach a car? And all you know, once kids have like demonstrated their ability to exercise their, you know, restraint, or their impulse control, or any of those things that we need to kind of define whether or not they're gonna be able to make a good, safe decision. And then you can keep building on that, you know, it's like, wow, you Yeah, you can go up to the 711 or whatever and get a root beer with your friends. You can hang out down at the end of the street and play basketball or whatever that looks like. But I think it's, it's really dependent on each kid, and I think how well they abide by your family safety rules, what you have set out as far as physical boundaries, and, you know, safety, boundaries, that and that you your family values,

Casey O'Roarty 8:45
I guess, yeah, well, and I'm hearing you say it's not, it's not on the job training, that it's actually having conversations, maybe doing some role playing, setting some limits, prior to, yeah, let's, let's play with you, going down to the Park and see how it feels today, and we could talk about it, yeah,

Kim Estes 9:04
checking in. I love that. That's like, that was a big one for us. For was our kids, you know, we determined whether or not they were more, you know, ready to go and do more stuff independently. Was, were they really good about checking in? I'm a huge fan of the check in, which it's like, hey, when you get down to the park, just text me or give me a ring. Kids. Let it get older. I think the texting is a little bit more kind of lets them fly under the radar, so it's not as embarrassing. But you say, hey, just check in. And then if the plan changes, like, let's say you guys get all down there and you're it's hot, and you're running around, and you play basketball, and one of you suggests to, like, go to a bit further down the street to the convenience store to get sodas, just check in and let me know. Yeah, or if you decide it's getting too hot, we want to go over to our friend's house and go inside and just play video games, just check in and let me know. And I think those when kids can be really good about that, that really. Shows a lot of safety, maturity, and that they're able to handle that free range, you know, that you've given them, right?

Casey O'Roarty 10:06
And something that we work on, it just happened recently where my 11 year old, who's in fifth grade, really likes and looks up to some of the boys in the neighborhood who are in the eighth grade, you know. And in my head, it's like they're so old, you're so young, you know, even though they're all the same size, you know, my son is really savvy as far as, like, sports and, you know, articulate. He can present as a little bit older than he is, but ultimately, He's 11, and I went by the park. He was down at the park, and they were playing football, and I knew he was there, and I knew who he was with, and I called him over, and I just said, Listen, you know, if things start to feel if you're you know, if your belly tells you that things aren't fun anymore, like, listen to your gut and just head home. Your sister's home. But don't forget to kind of check in with yourself. If things start to feel weird, or people, you know, it feels like anybody's being mean, you know, check in with yourself. And I think when I think about free range parenting, I really see it as an opport, or whatever you want to call it, right? I mean, free range parenting is just a phrase, but giving our kids the space to actually practice listening to their intuition, like actually being in an experience where their gut might be telling them something, versus like, No, you can't do that, stay close to home and then never actually having the opportunity, until maybe they're a lot older and the risks are a lot higher,

and They haven't developed that sense well.

Kim Estes 11:41
And I think too, you know, when I talk to parents about this, and I kind of go back to, well, what are you afraid of? Like, what is, what is the driving fear that is holding you back? Some of it is about being judged. That definitely comes up, like we talked about. But the other one is, is it they kind of go in, one worried they're going to get kidnapped or someone's going to approach them, and I really try to take that opportunity to do a little bit of myth dispelling with them, yeah, because the chances of that happening, that whole stranger danger thing, is very it's pretty rare. I mean, it can happen. The chances of it happening aren't super likely. I mean, we definitely need to, like, go over that, like, if you are playing basketball or, you know, roller skating, or whatever you're, you know, on your skateboards, or whatever you're doing, and someone approaches you, you know, like you you said, What does your your tummy tell you? What does your gut or that, oh, feeling so you definitely want to have the conversation. But I definitely don't think that that should be the sole thing that you base your risk assessment. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 12:45
no, no. And this was mostly with him at the park with the boys, not like if a creepy guy showed

Kim Estes 12:49
up. A lot of parents do, and they won't even let their kids be out in the front yard. They're so terrified, and I have to bring them back down and say, Listen, the chances of that happening are pretty slim. In fact, they probably have more risk if you have a smartphone and they're sitting home in their bedroom with no monitoring software and they're surfing the internet and going into chat rooms. That's probably presents a greater danger than if they're just hanging out with their friends at the park. Yeah. So, you know, and then the other third thing is traffic, they and that I feel is very valid point, and I your kids definitely have to be street smart when it comes to navigating traffic, because people don't pay attention. I tell my kids all the time, cars will not see you. Yeah, never assume cars will see you. But those are typically the three things they're worried about. If they do the free range, you know, kind of philosophy that they'll be judged, or their kid will be kidnapped, or there's the fear of Traffic Safety, and I would say probably the third one, the traffic one, is actually probably the greatest risk, and definitely have to stress that with their kids. But I think parents, before they go into this, you know, kind of philosophy and going with it, thinking, Okay, this is, you know, I want my kid to experience more of their neighborhood and that kind of thing they have. I think parents need to really take a good look and realize there is what, what amount of risk are you comfortable with? Because they are probably going to fall off their bike and, you know, skin themselves up, or they they might get into trouble. And these are normal risk taking behaviors. And I think it's just good for parents to talk to one another and realize, you know, this is probably going to happen. It might be my kid, and how are we going to, you know, handle that when it when we have to cross that bridge. But again, shouldn't be a defining valuation or not. They're allowed to go out at all because they really they need to figure out conflict and and problem solving and all of that comes with being independent of their

Casey O'Roarty 14:47
parents. Yeah, I remember, you know, I was born in 1973 so I must have been like nine or 10. When is it Jim Walsh, the guy who does is that? It is Jim Walsh. He does America's Most Wanted now, and his son went missing, and I remember there was, I mean, I my memory of it was being inundated with after school specials and school programs and stranger danger to the point where I was just like, I couldn't wait for some creepy person to come try to grab me, because I knew just what to do. You know, I was like, offer me candy, please. I know how to handle it.

Unknown Speaker 15:25
I'm gonna take you down. Yeah, and

Casey O'Roarty 15:30
John Walsh. John Walsh, right, that's right. And it doesn't seem like there's that much of a push, but I'm again, I'm the parent now, and not the child, although also I remember reading something in some book when the kids were really young, and Ian was probably three or four, and I just out of nowhere. We might have talked about this last time, but out of nowhere just said, you know, if anybody ever tries to grab you, you can kick and punch and scream and bite and do all the things we tell you you can't do. And he looked at me with his great big eyes, and he said, somebody's gonna try to grab me. And then for like, two months, he wouldn't let me leave the room. Totally do damage control. So

Kim Estes 16:13
you know the stranger danger kind of marketing piece of that did come out when John Walsh's son was kidnapped, and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has been trying to they said it brought attention to their organization in a way that never had been spotlighted on them. But it also did the greatest amount of damage, because what it did was Is it focused on the stranger danger thing, and it took away from parents paying attention to where, kind of, where the real risk were lying, which was in people, you know, the red flags that would show up and be presented with people that the kids knew, right? So the stranger danger thing went against all the statistics. That's what people focused on. And they they've been spending, you know, the last 30 years, trying to dispel that. They've written articles about it. They don't use it, you know, they want stranger safety. They want kids to have, you know, street smarts, but they don't advocate for stranger danger stuff anymore, because it's so inaccurate. It's so inaccurate and and it also when our kids are out and about, when they're doing the free range thing, and if they do skin, you know, fall off their bike or their skateboard and get hurt, or they are lost, or just anything happens, they're going to have to reach out to an adult, yeah, and it's most likely going to be someone they don't know. And we don't want to eliminate that, though, that big potential resource by making them scared of strangers. So, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 17:43
so it's freedom within structure.

Kim Estes 17:45
Freedom within structure. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 17:48
love that. That shows up a lot when I talk to parents around a variety of things, but I can totally see it here. Freedom within structure and with like with so many things, our society loves to swing from one extreme to the other, right? So it's that crazy, micro managing, hovering over, scheduling extreme versus, yeah, like you said, like, let them explore the city. Yeah, at age five. So what is the happy medium, like, where, if, you know, if I'm listening to this podcast and I'm wondering, okay, so how do I find a happy medium? What would you suggest?

Kim Estes 18:29
I think, you know, follow the guide of your child if they are wanting to spend some time out and do things with their friends. And they've they've shown that they're responsible and they want to be having a little bit of independence, and it's reasonable. Yeah, I think that's great, you know. And then there's some kids that are super overconfident, you know, and so you're gonna have to pull back, you're gonna have to be the mean guy, you know, the mean mom or the mean dad, but that's okay, and you know, I think you know, within that structure, kids look for their parents to set those boundaries for them. And I think sometimes parents are afraid to set those boundaries because they're kind of trying to navigate them themselves, or they're not sure. But I think a happy medium is when your kid is learning new skills. You feel good about their ability to be independent, and then you grow on that. So I think it's totally okay for a five year old to be, you know, and a four year old to be playing in a confined backyard, and maybe some, you know, looking over and making sure, but not hovering over them, right? I think it's perfectly acceptable for, you know, 789, year olds to run around the front yard and on the street and play with their friends in that kind of confined space, essentially, but it's still not sitting in a bedroom being watched by a parent, you know, right? But, I mean, we have to remember, I know that like. The Middle School one is really tough. Yes, there you've got maturity levels that swing widely with kids. And you have kids that maybe are like the youngest child in a family, so they have a lot more freedom than, say, another child who's this is the parents first experience of dealing with a middle schooler. So they're a little more cautious. So you've got this kind of pendulum swinging all over the place. And I think the more consistent parents are about their expectations, like, we allow this, but we don't allow that. We feel comfortable with you doing this, but not that. But we had this big revelation the other day in our family. My daughter wanted to, you know, go do some stuff and and we're like, kind of putting some boundaries on that. And I My husband was like, I don't know. And I looked him in the eye, and I said, I just want you to realize in six months, she's eligible to get her driver's permit. Oh man. And you could see the wheel spinning. And it's like, oh my goodness, yeah, we forget that these big milestones are coming. So we really as parents, it's our job to start getting them comfortable out there, doing things, learning the ropes, feeling street savvy, stranger, smart or whatever, because in six months, they're eligible to drive a vehicle, you know, so, but it's when you are the parent of an eighth grader, you know, that's like, What? What? Yeah, it's

Casey O'Roarty 21:28
insane. I'm there too,

Kim Estes 21:29
yeah, it's oh my goodness. So it's, you know, again, each kid's different. But I really, I think that that feeling too for the kids, that their parents are giving them some trust is huge, and also that their parents love them enough to set boundaries in place. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 21:48
I love that. And I'm hearing I'm really what I'm really taking away is, like the child's lead. You know, not that we don't talk about safety and values and all those things until it comes up. But I'm hearing you say, you know, letting the child take the lead, and also it's okay to go by a case by case basis, yeah, when I think about the future of, you know, conversations around curfews and stuff, and recognizing that even then, it's probably going to be a case by case basis versus a blanket Oh, do whatever you want till 1230 at night. Yeah, or maybe they won't. Oh, God, we

Kim Estes 22:29
had a example with with our daughter, and, you know, she's middle schooler and wanted to take the public bus somewhere to meet a friend, and we were not she really hadn't had a lot of experience with that, but she was very confident I can do it, I can do it, and I could tell that I probably wasn't really going to gain anything by arguing this. It was definitely a Choose Your battle thing, and I felt like it was a safe place to let her explore this and do this. Sorry. Okay, awesome, so, and it was, it was, so we let her do it, and about an hour later, we got a call, and she was about 10 miles, 15 miles south of where she was supposed to be. And we're like, wow. Okay, so she ended up figuring out how to get back to her starting point. And then it was like, Can you please come get me and and we're like, okay, we picked her up and and we talked about it, and she's like, Yeah, maybe I'm not as ready as I thought. And it was so good for all of us, because she the next time when I said, Well, you know, are you sure? Have you really planned it or thought it out? Have you explored all the steps that you're going to need to take to get to wherever, you know? Because remember what happened with the bus? And she laughs and you know, so I took her another month or so before she re attempted it, but this time, she really researched it. Yeah, a lot more, and she had a completely successful trip. She checked in, and, you know, I think for her, was a good experience to realize, you know, maybe I'm not as savvy as I thought. It's okay to ask for help. It's okay to do a do over, and I need to research things better and not just assume I know best. And it was such a good growing experience for for us as a family, and we didn't get mad at her, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 24:39
I think that is so key. Yeah, I think that's such a that's one of those great experiences, like when they fall off the swing, but they don't break their arm, you know, it's like, Yes, awesome. And we can just be there in support, loving support. I love that. And I think that that goes for a lot of kind of the limit, boundary put. Pushing that our kids do. It's, it's simply a part of their you know what they're supposed to do, and to be able to support them through the mess of it when it becomes a mess, versus, See, I told you that you were too young to do this like the lesson is totally lost when we show up that way.

Kim Estes 25:20
And at this point we can, we, can we laugh about it? I mean, we don't laugh at her. We all just kind of, oh my God, and she'll say, I don't even know what I did. But, and it's great because I know that the like the riding the bus piece, is just the stepping stone to where it's going to be much bigger things. And I want to always leave that door open when she's out in the world and something goes sideways that she still feels like, I can call Yeah, and they're not going to completely freak out. And, you know, and I have an older daughter who's almost 20, and we have, we've had those calls where they have said, I've been in an accident and they weren't her fault. But you know, when you're the parent on the receiving end, you're just like, you just hear, I've been in an accident, and, you know, it, you want to react, but you have to be the calm in your kids storm. And as they are exploring their world, and those boundaries are getting larger, and they're trying to build a Safety Foundation, stuff is going to happen. And so we really need to be there, calm, you know, in the storm as they're navigating their outside world, whether they're a five year old playing in the backyard or a 14 year old wanting to ride the bus or a high schooler driving. So

Casey O'Roarty 26:34
yes, and I think what you said there was so key Kim, which is being available like being that non judgmental, available place for them to land when they get into trouble. And that doesn't mean that there aren't conversations and reflections and explorations. But, you know, I'm always conscious of that when my kids have to tell me something that's tough to hear. I'm really working on neutral face, dropping into curiosity, helping them to get to the place of like, wow. How are you going to make this right? How are you going to clean this up? Where do we do from here? What recently said to my son, so, so what is, what are you learning about yourself around some iPod use that he was getting into some mischief and and so he set his own limit of, I don't think I should have my iPod upstairs. Okay, all right, let's go with that. And that is so much more powerful than me saying, well, from now on, you can't have your iPod upstairs, right? I'm taking it away because ultimately I want him to to be able to do that reflection on his own. And so this is a great way to practice awesome. And

Kim Estes 27:47
I think for parents to realize that sometimes things come at you fast you may have and this is so important for both parents and kids to understand there's going to be do overs for both of you. Because I think as parents, we say like and I've heard myself say this. I know a lot of my friends say this. They say, if you're ever, you know, at an event or a party, or if somebody's being a bully or someone's drinking and you want to come home, you call me, no questions asked, and I will come and get you. And that like that has been we've been talking about that forever with our eggs. And I remember one night, I was in my pajamas. I was all relaxed. It was about five minutes to 11. It was right before curfew, and I get a call from my my teenage daughter, and she was much older, high school age at this point, and she says, I need to ride home. And I immediately got irritated, because I'm like you said you had everything set up, and what I was going to was them being flaky. I had completely forgotten the commitment I had made, right? Because it didn't occur to me that that's what was happening, because we'd never crossed that bridge. So when I picked her up and we dropped everybody off, she said, Ah, hi. What happened to and she had not been drinking. She wanted me to drive the drink the kids who had been drinking home, right? And I just looked, I said, I am so sorry. You know, we've never dealt with this, and I this kind of came out of came out of left field, and I just thought you guys were being flaky with your plans. I didn't realize it like I was getting called to the big show. This was it, yeah, moment we had been practicing, and I think that's, you know, so it happened to me, and I think that it's important to remember it's going to happen to your kids. We may talk to them and talk to them about what to do in situations when they're out and about, and when it's that moment and it's the big show happening, it might touch them off guard and they may not do what we've been drilling and practicing and talking about for the last five years, because it just sometimes you just don't realize it's happening when it's happening, right? So the do over thing is super important. Forgiveness with each other, that it's like, I'm going to do better next time I didn't, I didn't realize we were at that point where I'm so glad you called me. Yeah, it just didn't even occur to me that that was what was happening and and, you know, and being owning that that failure, or that moment of where you didn't quite follow through, just because you didn't know the to over is huge for everybody, as they are in this middle school area and up, because we're all learning new stuff, navigating it together.

Casey O'Roarty 30:30
Do overs on both sides.

Kim Estes 30:33
Do overs on both sides. Awesome. Well, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 30:36
really excited for my last question in this context of free range parenting, which is Kim, yes, what does joyful courage mean to you? Joyful courage

Kim Estes 30:50
means to me to be able to parent courageously, even if it is uncomfortable, but at the end of the day, having something that feels good for everybody, even if it's the smallest success.

Casey O'Roarty 31:09
Oh, thank you. That was so short and to the point I really appreciate that. Thanks, Kim. Where can listeners find you and follow your work? Well,

Kim Estes 31:21
we have a website which is savvy parents, Safe kids.com and there's a ton of free downloadable safety tips and 911 sheets and cell phone contracts and all sorts of amazing stuff that you can download there. And of course, savvy parents, Safe Kids is on Facebook, and we're always posting fun things and very interactive there. So those are the two easiest ways to reach us, and we always encourage people, regardless of the age of your kids or where you live, you can always message us, and we are happy to answer your safety questions and give you some guidance if you need it.

Casey O'Roarty 31:55
Great. Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show.

Kim Estes 31:59
Thank you. Thanks for having me. I love coming on.

Casey O'Roarty 32:09
Yes, I always appreciate the opportunity to have my friends on the show and Kim comes with such a delightful amount of lightness and humor that you know, when we are talking about safety and the craziness that shows up in the world, I think that lightness and humor is a really important because we can get really crazy, really Crazy with with fear and the what ifs so really appreciated having Kim on the show sharing her thoughts and ideas around this topic. And so appreciate, as always, you, every single one of you listening in and enjoying the podcast. Thank you for the feedback. Thank you for the emails and the messages that you send me around how much you love and appreciate the show. Keep sending those. They fill me up. I'm so grateful to get to have this platform to offer wisdom and entertainment and inspiration to all of you. So thank you. Thank you for showing up each and every week and listening in and sharing the show. There's a few days left in the month of March, and I really want you all to get in on the march giveaway. The March giveaway is a spot in my membership program. So as you may have heard, Saturday the 25th the membership doors opened up once again, and they will remain open through this Saturday, April 1. And the membership is a powerful way for being in a learning community of parents, everybody in the membership program is invited to monthly webinars, weekly group coaching calls, a discussion forum, and really just a solid group of parents who are dedicated to growing and being their best for their family. So membership is now open, yay. Registration is open. If you go to joyful courage.com/living-jc, you will see that there's a couple different options that you have, one of which is the monthly membership fee, which is $39 a month. Or if you want a little bit off, you can do a three month regular membership. So what that looks like is you'll pay for the first three months, and then every three months till the end of the year, you will pay that same fee. So there's options, there's options, and I am just so excited by what we've already created. And. Last three months in the membership. I'm so looking forward to all of the new people that show up this month. And if you want in on the giveaway, I'm going to draw names on March 31 I'm going to draw one name on March 31 and the way that you get in on the giveaway is simply by sharing the podcast. Share the podcast over social media, tagging me joyful courage or Casey or Rorty, so that I know that you've shared it. And every time you do that, your name goes into the giveaway pile and you have that better of a chance of being picked for a free membership. And what do you think about that. So, yeah, big, huge love to each and every one of you. I'm super grateful for the way that you show up. I've been showing up on Facebook lives on Tuesdays. So if this is you know, if you're listening to this podcast early on Tuesday, know that I will be on Facebook Live at 10am. Talking about a new positive discipline tool. I spend about 10 or 15 minutes chatting it up there. So join me on the joyful courage page. Otherwise, I will see you. I will see you out in the internet world. Big, huge love. Have a beautiful day. Don't forget to take care of yourself so that you can take care of those kids and big. Love you.

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