Transcription
Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful courage, parenting podcast episode 75 you
Hey, Hey everybody, welcome back to the joyful courage parenting Podcast. I'm so excited and delighted that you are here that you've chosen to spend time listening to this show. It is an honor and a blessing to get to show up for you this way. I love it, and it's just a beautiful thing, isn't it? It's beautiful thing. So welcome back. Welcome back today. I'm super excited for our guest, marceli Smith Boyle, we are going to talk about research, which you might be like, No, super exciting research that backs up all the things that we do in positive discipline, parenting. So I'm really excited to get to the interview, but before then, I want to just kind of speak into something that's been showing up a lot for me. It's been showing up as part of the conversation that I had this morning in a group call that I did with the live in love with joyful courage membership participants, and that is just work around practice and being in a parenting practice. Many of you have heard me talk about having an intention, having a way of being that we're striving for when things get messy or challenging or triggering, having a way of being to be practicing so as to influence the situation in a way where people still feel connected, and where there's skill development. And when we declare a way of being that we want to be practicing, it's really important, you know, to be practicing that way of being, not in the moment, right, not when you need it the most, but really all the time, all the time, because, like, for me, presence and possibility are my intentions right now. And I get caught up in fear, in the in the conversation around, well, how am I going to do that? Like, how's that going to happen? How can I possibly create that? And fear creeps in and I don't even realize that that's the moment, you know, that's a moment where I get to breathe in. You know, everything is possible, and I can be present and aware of the fear when it's creeping in and creating rigidity in my mindset, creating rigidity in my goal setting, creating rigidity in my day, I tend to find lots of ways to distract myself when rigidity shows up, and it's not helpful. So I have to practice presence and possibility. I have to practice when I wake up in the morning, just breathing that in, knowing and playing and being curious about where is presence and possibility in my body. Where can I bring it alive, right? What do I need to do to open up, to create space for that? And the more I can do that throughout the day, then the more often it is that I can become ever more aware when fear is creeping in and and close mindedness, right? And thinking that something is impossible. When that shows up, I get to move my body back to that place that I've found that opens up to possibility, and I get to shift my mindset. The other thing that's coming up for me lately is trust, right? Trust, and I think that we talk on this podcast about the parenting process, but really, it's a human experience, right? It's human relationship that we're talking about. We're just having, having to talk about it with in the context of an adult and a child. But as many of you have spoken into in your feedback or on the live in love with joyful courage page, many of the tools that we're using and playing with and practicing with our children are also helpful with the other adults in our life, and with ourselves and with ourselves, right? So trust shows up because the invitation when you're living a life of intention, when you're living a life of positive discipline in your relationships. When you're living that life, you really have to trust that relationship is powerful, that sometimes you have to trust that working on the relationship is the most powerful thing you can do to shift the dynamics, to shift the behavior and and that requires. Is trusting, right? Trusting the process of developing skills over time and knowing that in the future, your children will get ever better at leaning into those tools, right? We have to trust ourselves in those moments where we don't know what to do, we don't know what to do, and we've all been there. We have to trust that we're enough in those moments and that it's a really common situation. Like, can we all just nod our heads? Yes? I've had the experience of not knowing and trusting ourselves anyway, trusting that we are the perfect parent for our children, trusting that they are the perfect children and teachers for us. There's a reason cosmically, that we've all come together. There's a reason why our children, our partners, our ex partners, our friends, our colleagues, you know, the other people in the grocery store. There's a reason that our paths have crossed, and we can trust that. And I think in trust also, there is a surrender, right, surrendering to the idea that sometimes we're not going to know, and that's okay, surrendering to the idea that we can have really big dreams and goals, right, possibility, and surrendering to the idea the fact sometimes that we don't know how we're going to get there, And that that that doesn't mean we're not going to get there. So that's what's alive for me right now, is this whole conversation around trust and surrender, and it's showing up over and over and over again, which tells me that it's a place to explore, and it also tells me that it's probably not only a place for me to explore, but for also the rest of everybody else, the community that I get to be a voice for and to. So I'm I would love to know what trust and Surrender means for you in this moment, in this time of your life. So feel free to share right share in the live in love with joyful courage page, or send me an email. I would love to hear about trust and surrender to you and how it's showing up. All right, blah, blah, blah. I've also been given feedback recently that I talked too much before getting to the interviews on the podcast. How do you all feel about that? I think I kind of need to do a poll. Am I? Are you tired of this? Like, monolog. I kind of think of myself, you know, like David Letterman right the beginning of the show, there's always the monolog. So, you know, I too, create a monolog. I want to connect with you. I want to connect around what's real and relevant and alive in me and in our community, from the context of what I'm seeing. And I think it's a powerful way to start the show, but maybe I'm wrong. So if you want to let me know what you think about the opening of the podcast, I'd love to hear because this is for you, right? This is for you. So yeah. Anyway, enough of me. I'm going to talk more at the end. Check back in with you and remind you of all the ways that we can connect. But let's move towards the interview. So like I said, marceli Smith Boyle is on the podcast again. She's a returning guest. I think she was on. She was maybe my sixth or seventh guest, so it's been a while since I've had her on. She's really excited to share about this topic, and she's, in my opinion, the perfect person to be sharing. You'll hear the excitement in her voice as she talks about research and how it supports the work that we do in positive discipline. But I just really invite you to find a comfy place to sit, or maybe a chore like dishes or laundry or something that you can be doing and or take a walk, right? Or take a drive and tune in and really listen to all of the goodness that Marci is about to share with us. I'm sure 100% positive that it's going to be helpful to you. So let's meet marceli. You. Music. Hi there. Marcily, welcome back to the joyful courage podcast.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 9:09
Hello, Casey, I am delighted to be here.
Casey O'Roarty 9:12
I'm so glad that you said yes again. It
Marcilie Smith Boyle 9:15
was an easy yes. Please remind
Casey O'Roarty 9:18
the listeners about your journey of doing what you do.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 9:23
Okay? So I am, like you, a certified positive discipline trainer, and I'm also a certified life and leadership coach. So I teach positive discipline classes both online, and live in the San Francisco Bay area. I live in Oakland, and I also coach individuals and groups on topics like career transition and parenting, also life coaching and executive leadership coaching, and I've been doing this since 2012 before that, I spent 16 years in corporate America. I got my MBA from Harvard, worked in management consulting for a while, and then spent. 10 years managing and marketing brands with the Clorox company. I left Clorox in 2007 after my third baby was born, but when she was about two or three, I started to get the itch to go back to work, so I picked up the phone and started dialing Clorox to see what they might have for me, but I couldn't finish punching in the numbers. I hesitated. I hung up the phone, and I wasn't exactly sure what the hesitation was from, but I realized maybe I didn't want to go back. I didn't know why, because I had a great career there. Loved Clorox, so instead, I enrolled in a class for moms in transition, and it was basically kind of group coaching. And for the first time in probably, I don't know, 1520 years, I gave myself the time to reflect not on my house, which I just did a major renovation, not on my children, not on my job or my husband, but on me. Imagine that. What a gift I know, right? So I don't know it was lucky. I think that I got the opportunity and the impetus and the encouragement to do that, to take that time, but I did, and I reflected on my values, my sense of purpose, what brought me, what I was good at, what brought me fulfillment in life. And in that process, I realized that my values had changed. And that happens. I mean, I don't think that's that uncommon, not all of them, but a few of them, had changed, and I began searching for a career focused on people rather than products. And someone suggested life coaching. I took my first class, and I fell in love right away. It's
Casey O'Roarty 11:55
so good. It's so juicy. I love the life coaching work. Oh, man, it in,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 12:02
interestingly, about the same time I got just for fun, I got an opportunity to get certified in positive discipline, and there was a gap in my coaching training. So I said, All right, I got nothing to do. I'll go do that. And I thought, well, it'll help me personally, if not professionally. But then when I did the certification, I felt so deeply inspired. It's like, oh, this is such good stuff. It had so much in common with my coaching training. And I just felt so inspired that I decided, well, at least some of my coaching has got to be dedicated to helping parents and exposing people to the positive discipline philosophy. So here I am, yay.
Casey O'Roarty 12:47
Here you are. I love that. I didn't know that. I didn't realize. I didn't know how you maybe you told me last time, but I love that and my my story, I got to positive discipline before I got to the life coaching. So when I went through my life coaching training, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is I already am a life coach, exactly the same as what we've been doing in the experiential piece and the embodiment piece. I just I love that overlap. Awesome the asking
Marcilie Smith Boyle 13:16
versus telling. Oh yeah. Serious, yes, yes,
Casey O'Roarty 13:19
yes, yes, yes. And listeners like you mentioned, everybody knows that I'm a positive discipline trainer too, and it's fascinating to me. I think that there's so much great information out in the world, right? And there's this big umbrella we were talking before I hit record, there is a pretty vast umbrella that a lot of writers and speakers fall onto or fall under, called, you know, positive parenting or peaceful parenting, or gentle parenting and or conscious parenting, right? There's so many same idea, and so today in our conversation, I'm really excited, because we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the science behind positive discipline, like capital, positive capital discipline, right? So, just so listeners are clear, positive discipline, and we're going to talk more about the principles of positive discipline. It's actually a thing, like, it's a program, it's a philosophy, it's really, it has, you know, it's distinct, right? And that's what you and I when we talk about being positive discipline trainers. We both have gone through the process of, you know, of leveling up and really understanding and being able to deliver the information and the content to people. So I just wanted to make that clear for listeners, too, because I think that, you know, I think that while I think that there's a lot of meandering in and out, and not everybody realizes that this is an actual like, you know, like I had, I've had Hand in Hand parenting experts on and that in that's a thing that's a program to follow, as well as is positive discipline. So it's. Tell us about why? Because you, you told me. You said, I want to come on and I want to talk about the science and the research, which is, yeah, so, and listening to you say that you got your MBA from Harvard, you're so smart. Oh, please, first you want to talk about the science and the research. You're like my brainiest friend.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 15:17
See, now I'm feeling pressure, okay, yeah, let me take that off, because I
Casey O'Roarty 15:23
don't know I love that, but I love it because I am, I'm so I moved to the world emotionally. So it's always such a gift to get to be in relationship with someone who moves to the world like not 100% but you know, facts, science, research. That's important, right? That's although, I have to
Marcilie Smith Boyle 15:42
say, like in my class of 90 people in my section at Harvard, we once did a pro an activity where we all divided up into our Myers Briggs profile, yeah, and I was one of three, I think, in my entire 90 group session section that was a feeler rather than a thinker.
Casey O'Roarty 16:03
Wow, where all the other people like, oh, they were big. Sorry for you.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 16:09
Like, what?
Casey O'Roarty 16:13
Oh, that's funny. Well, tell us. Tell us why this is so interesting to you. Why did you talk about it?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 16:17
Yeah, so I created a little class called The Science of positive discipline, and that sprung from my deep fascination with the mostly, not totally, but mostly the new neuroscientific research that's been exploding about social psychology in general. So as I said, before I got certified in positive discipline, around the same time I was doing specifically my my leadership coaching training with the neuro Leadership Institute, which is headed by David Rock and and I did that coaching training because I have more of a math, math brain, you know, like, even though I'm an F, I'm I, I'm logical linear. And when I took positive discipline, and I took positive discipline very early, when I was well, not that early, but when I was a younger parent, because I was just really struggling with my daughter and and I had a hard time really grasping the the concepts and really being able to implement them. It made sense to me, but it was so counter to everything that I had learned as a child about parenting, everything that I had witnessed as a parent from that other parents were doing. So it was I really had a hard time making it part of my life. So when my neuro leadership coaching training seemed to back up so much of positive discipline with the neuroscientific research, I was absolutely, like, thrilled, right? And my notes from that training, over and over I was I was making connections. Oh, this is this connects to the to the concept of mutual respect and positive discipline. Oh, my gosh. This is all about belonging and significance and positive discipline. The connections were just wildly firing. It was so exciting that I just became that much more committed to spreading positive discipline in the world.
Casey O'Roarty 18:24
Love it. That's so funny. I think I read, what was it daring? I think it was daring greatly. By Brene Brown. I'm always making notes in the margins of books, like, Oh, this is this isn't this is called encouragement. Like, this is all about encouragement, or this is all about this or that, and, yeah, yes, love that. Love those little side notes and connecting, making those connection, connections while we learn, is specifically, you know, when I think about the the parents that show up in our because you are also an online facilitator, you do online classes like I do, and people come for a variety of reasons, and I'm noticing that there's always, there's always those parents who are so they so are so invested and so committed, and yet it's such a it's a really big stretch because of, like you said, like their models or their experiences, that it's so difficult for them to to make that connection. So I think what I heard you say is, as you were learning the positive discipline concepts, you were also connecting to something that brings you alive, like that, that really, that really lands for you. And so if you know, I would just want to invite listeners out there, because I know it's, you know, we talk about reading books and reading blogs, and it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then putting it into practice is really challenging, so I think that was a great gift to everybody that's listening, like, when you're reading, when you're having conversations, start to make those connections to why is this important to you? Why does this land for you? What is the connection there? And then those I was just reading about neuro. Transmitters, yeah, it'll fire up those neurotransmitters and make, you know, make the learning ever more solidified as you move on. Awesome. So around the distinction of positive discipline, right? So positive discipline, the program will you, you were going to share with us what are some of the guiding principles of positive discipline, so listeners know, yeah,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 20:24
well, and I think many of your listeners do know what these are, but let me back up for just a second. And yeah, because I want to be clear about what I mean by the science of positive discipline, yeah, so because, you know, that's that. That's a kind of a could be a term with many interpretations. So what I'll tell you, what I mean about it is, I'm talking about science that is not sponsored by the positive discipline Association, so it's completely separate and it's high quality research. I think of science as high quality research that turns theories into fact, or at least makes it more factual. So all the research that I'll share today has solid methodology, has been peer reviewed and is published in respected publication, and none of it has anything to do with positive discipline. It just so happens that it all backs it up, so it's
Casey O'Roarty 21:19
not just stuff that you're making
Marcilie Smith Boyle 21:22
up. Nope, not making it up. I couldn't even think this stuff up if I tried. And a lot of this new at least, I'm going to share not just neuroscientific research, but the neuroscientific research that I will share. It's been enabled by the relatively recent technology of functional magnetic resonance imagery, fMRI and PET scans, that that's where you can measure what's the activity in the brain. Before the advent of that technology, we had to wait for people to get brain injuries to be able to study what was going on in the brain. So now
Casey O'Roarty 21:58
is that like when you put them in the when you go in the tube and they connect with what's happening. Or is that like things on your head and they're reading things like, I actually draw the
Marcilie Smith Boyle 22:07
picture what an fMRI looks like, but it is the same technology as a magnetic resonance imagery, but it's applied to the brain. I don't know what it looks like. That's good question. Never had it done personally, so but, that advent of that technology has really exploded the the research that we're able to do on the brain and apply it to human behavior and social psychology. So that Advent has made all this research possible. Cool, yeah, so that's what I mean by science, and then some of the principles of positive discipline. I just wanted to share that first so that then you could see how the science backs it up. And yeah, and I know you know these very well, and probably a lot of your listeners are familiar with some of the key principles, and there are several, so I'll just highlight a few. The first that really hit me hard was the Adlerian principle that at the root of most misbehavior, not all behavior, but a lot of misbehavior, the root of it is a child's striving for that sense of belonging and significance. You
Casey O'Roarty 23:23
Yes, I love that. Yeah,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 23:25
it's, it's really shifted my perspective, because I have heard you talk about the iceberg metaphor too. I use it as well thinking about, you know, the tip of the iceberg is what you can see. That's your child's behavior. It's what you can see, but underneath the surface, so much more is going on. There are thoughts, feelings, beliefs, abilities, developmental stages, all those things underneath the surface are what's driving the behavior. And you know, a lot of parenting guidance models focus on the tip of the iceberg. How do I stop the behavior, incentives or disincentives, or how do I start ones I like in positive discipline and Ed learning theory is more about looking underneath. How do I help change my child's beliefs, or help bring, give them skills so that they have the long term ability to behave in a way that's, you know, contributing respectful, helpful to other people.
Casey O'Roarty 24:22
I love that principle. And you know, what's been showing up lately is parents saying, applying it to themselves and like recognizing why do we get triggered by specific behaviors, especially as our kids move into adolescence? It's incredible how our significance button. It's like, Wow, no wonder that. You know, the eye rolling sets me off like that, that, you know, I do matter. I matter, right? We all matter here. And all the the feedback I'm getting from you is I couldn't matter any less. And
Marcilie Smith Boyle 24:58
it just happened to me at family. Me. Thing this weekend, my teenage daughter, I made a point about why I thought, you know, we should have some limits on texting, and she looked at me with this look of complete disdain and said something that I don't even remember what she said, but it was a complete arrow to my feeling of being respected, my significance, boom, right there. And I was like, oh, it just triggered all of my feelings of, you know, worthiness yet, yeah, and of course, it made me want to fight back. I mean, that's and that's what we do to kids too, when we inadvertently threaten their sense of significance, often the that invites fighting
Casey O'Roarty 25:48
back yeah or retreat or just Yeah, yeah,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 25:52
resentment. So the resentment, those are that belonging and significance, feeling that really deeply human need, basic need to feel loved, connected, included, to feel competent and capable and worthy, really basic human needs. Yeah, so that's one of the major principles of Adlerian theory and positive discipline that I love. And by the way, when we say people will, they know what I mean by Adlerian
Casey O'Roarty 26:22
theory? Because, well, some, I mean, we've talked about it on other shows, but not everyone has caught up quite yet on every single episode, although I know everyone's trying out there, right? So why don't you briefly like Adlerian theory is, it's the foundation for positive discipline. Yeah, it's
Marcilie Smith Boyle 26:39
just, it's based on the theories and the psychology and philosophy of Alfred Adler, who was a psychiatrist who lived around the turn of the century, and he's considered one of the big three in psychology, along with Jung and Freud. So that's what I say, what we mean when we say Adlerian theory. So the lion and significance a big part of it, and the idea that when children feel, when they perceive that they have a strong sense of belonging, strong sense of significance, many of those misbehaviors on the tip of the iceberg simply disappear. So that's one another. Principle is this the principle of mutual respect? That's a big one in positive discipline and Larry and psychology, the idea that if we want children to treat us with respect, we need to model to them what that looks and feels like. Yeah. So even though they're children and parents, we definitely have more authority, and they need us to be leaders in the family. That that doesn't mean that we can't treat them with respect, and by respect, I mean with a deep understanding and consideration for their thoughts and feelings, for their beliefs, for their abilities and developmental stage. Yeah.
Casey O'Roarty 28:05
So I, when I talk about mutual respect, um, yes. And I also talk about it because I think that sometimes there's, there's another way to think about it, right it, which is, if you know you respect me and I'll respect you like it's some sort of exchange, yeah. And so I also like to invite the idea that I'm going to respect myself and I'm going to respect you. Whatever you whatever happens for you, is yours, but I'm going to treat this situation. I'm going to treat myself with respect. So that firmness, boundary setting piece, and I'm gonna treat you with respect, because even when the person in front of us is at our at their worst, like something's going on, right? Yeah, everybody, there's
Marcilie Smith Boyle 28:53
something underneath that tip of the iceberg.
Casey O'Roarty 28:55
Yeah? Love it cool,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 28:56
yeah. I like to think of it too, yes, and
Casey O'Roarty 29:02
we're gonna do some life coaching. I
Marcilie Smith Boyle 29:03
know right, or love it, or we both done improv, the idea that mutual respect is really about how every party, parent, child, co workers, leaders, subordinates, whatever every person has an equal right to dignity, to keeping their dignity absolutely so that's what it's about, for me as well. Love it. And then a third principle, and of course, there are many more, but the third principle that I'll touch on today is, is the principle of focusing on solutions rather than on punishment or rewards. This is this is also so empowering. This, this paradigm to focus on solutions, because it's about helping children. Look forward, teach Long Term Life skills so that next time they can do better. So it's not just about solving the problem right now, it's about equipping them so that they can solve problems long into the future. And it's really contrasted with the idea of punishments and rewards, because compunishments and rewards are about extrinsic motivation. How do I get my child to do this or not do that? And solutions are more about how do I help my child want to do the right thing, even when no one is watching, forcing or bribing? Right? That quotes from Jody McVitie. Love that lady. Love her. Lead, lead, positive discipline trainer and and I think, you know, and when I asked this question in my classes, I say, you know, how many of you parents out there would like by the time your child is an adult, for them to be able to make good decisions all by themselves, without needing an incentive or a fear a threat. You know, everybody raises their hand. We all want that. We all want our children to be able to do those things all by them, to make good choices all by themselves. And that's what I love about positive discipline, too. It's about helping children, you know, create or develop or feed, nourish, that internal compass to do the right thing, that intrinsically mode, that intrinsic
Casey O'Roarty 31:31
motivation, yeah, and I think too it's, it's about, it's about parenting to the adults that we want. And I think that's really, that's really clear, because I know that one of the frustrations that people have is things don't happen quick enough, right? It's not magic. We would get to make a lot more money if it was a magic wand. And it's not, it's it's messy. And you know, we're not robots, which my listeners have heard me say many times. We're actual humans dealing with actual humans. And it it does. It requires us to be reflective. It requires us to do our work as the adults, to sift through all the garbage. And not garbage, but layers of garbage, some a lot of it's garbage. I'm just gonna say it like we're making assumptions all the time. And you know, it's, it's, it is, to me, it is the most powerful opportunity parenting is to grow into the best version of myself. Oh, yeah. And that is with, that is with the understanding that I'm not there,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 32:38
I'm not there, I'm still learning. Definitely, I learned so much about myself by watching how I react and respond and deal with my children.
Casey O'Roarty 32:49
Yeah, totally. So
Marcilie Smith Boyle 32:49
tell us about so those are some
Casey O'Roarty 32:52
of the principles. There's lots more. Read book, everyone. It's fabulous. Or take a class from marceli or myself. So there's, those are some of the some big distinctions that we make, big principles in positive discipline. So how, what are you finding in the research? What's the research telling us the science behind these principles? How is it supporting positive discipline?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 33:17
Okay, so there's so much, and I'm I had to be really selective today, because I know we don't have time to cover every little thing, so I've just selected a few, a handful, and just know that there's a lot more. But the first piece of research that I when I learned it was just like so mind boggling and fascinating to me, was research that is published in a book called Social by Matthew Lieberman. So social, and I have to say, like, I can't wholeheartedly recommend the book, because the second half of it is super technical and dense and hard to get through. The first half is fascinating, but the research that the book is based on is fascinating. That's what I want to tell you about and his basic premise of the book is that our brains are made for connecting, not just thinking. There are nature's fundamentally social. And of course, that's very in line with Adler's philosophy and positive discipline as well. And he, both he and Alfred azler Adler thought that maybe Maslow was wrong in his hierarchy of needs. So I don't know if people have seen that triangle the Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, the the very fundamental building block on his hierarchy is, you know, physiological needs. You've got to get your physiological needs met, like food and water and shelter before you can even think about something higher level, like love or belonging. But Lieberman and and and also Adler, as it turns out, thought that maybe Maslow was wrong, and the reason they think so. Is because babies, they need their parents to love them and be connected to them and care for them in order to get food or shelter. Like the connection comes first. Without that, they can't survive. So they did some research to to several pieces of research, and the one that I'll call out for you is is research that was originally published in the Association for Psychological Science in 2012 called Broken Hearts and broken bones, linking the physical pain to social pain and and I really think the research itself is fascinating, so I'm going to describe that. Is that okay?
Casey O'Roarty 35:43
Yeah, you can do okay. So I'm enrolled.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 35:47
I've done this in classes too. And what we did in the classes, which mimics the research that was done, is you get people in groups of three, and you tell two of the people, two of the people are confederates. They know the secret of the research. So you pull them aside, and you tell them to throw a ball back and forth and throw it back and forth to the third person. But then, after a while, stop throwing it to the third person. Exclude that third person, and just keep throwing it back and forth to yourself. And then the third person, you don't tell them anything. Okay, so they're the test subject, that third person, and the first two are the Confederates. They're in on the secret. So you do that, and this is what the research did, is they had people throwing like in waiting rooms, dentist, officer, doctor's office, and they'd start throwing to the third person, they're happy, they're giggling, you know, throwing back and forth. And then for no reason, they stop throwing to the third person, and then we debrief with the people. And of course, if you're that third person, how you feeling left,
Casey O'Roarty 36:47
out, disconnected, kind of mad or sad
Marcilie Smith Boyle 36:51
Exactly? You're feeling a little bit of social rejection. And even though you don't, you may not even know these other people, so that, that's the research that they they did, so that the third person experiences social rejection, they experience a little bit of social pain. And they replicated this on computer screen in a book, in a game called cyberball, where they have cartoon people, two people, the Confederates, throwing the ball back and forth. And then the test subject enters the computer game, and that test subject has the FMRI hooked up to them so that their brain activity is being measured, and the same thing happens. And then what happens when, after a while, after they've been excluded from the ball play, they could see what part of the brain is getting activity, and it turns out in their research that this the place in the brain that registers that social rejection, that social pain, is the very same place in the brain that lights up when people get little electric shocks or physical pain, same place in the brain that lights up for both physical pain and social pain, right? So to the brain.
Casey O'Roarty 38:05
So we need to quit saying, like, quit crying. It's not that big of a deal. Yeah.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 38:09
Or go to your room, right? Go to your room. You know, exclusion, rejection, right? Time out. Yeah, you're I, I can't believe you'd be such a terrible kid to your sister. What's wrong with you go to your room, that that kind of social pain feels the same as physical pain. So it can have people moving into fight or flight or self defense in the same way that it would have them moving into those things when they feel a threat to their physical safety.
Casey O'Roarty 38:44
Oh my gosh, that's so cool. I can't wait to do that activity with people. I'm gonna get a hold of you and get the notes.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 38:53
And it's funny too, that we now have research that that shows us to that to the brain, those two kinds of pain are the same. So no wonder when you send your child to their room or you you belittle them, make them feel very small. You know you threaten their sense of significance. You threaten their sense of social connection, that they will do whatever they can think of to fight back to get that sense back, which might be to, you know, back talk, to get revenge, to be sneaky, or all of those lovely things that we see as parents that we wish we didn't.
Casey O'Roarty 39:37
Yeah, that are so fun. Yeah, and
Marcilie Smith Boyle 39:40
so what's even more fascinating, I think, is in this research that they did, they they did a second stage where they reran the cyberball experiment with one group of people taking Tylenol for three weeks before they did the. A test, what that's random? Because their hypothesis was that if the brain experiences social and physical, the same would something like Tylenol cure that pain and and guess what? It did. It did so
Casey O'Roarty 40:15
they didn't really care, because they were all high on Tylenol.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 40:20
Yeah, it didn't hurt as much. That activity in that part of the brain was was much more suppressed. Wow.
Casey O'Roarty 40:25
Yeah, fascinating.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 40:29
So it you know that whole saying, one of my favorite mantras and positive discipline, is kids do better when they feel better. Part of the reason they do better when they feel better is they don't feel like they need to move into fight or flight. Yeah, they feel like they can more likely be open and receptive and open to your influence. That's
Casey O'Roarty 40:51
so interesting, and it's so funny, how things show up like not just in one place of your life, but in multiple places. I'm currently reading a book about written for teachers, around creating a Culturally Responsive Classroom, and with the added addition of brain science, and I was just reading about the same thing, that kids in the classroom, before they can learn, they need to feel connected. And there was all this similar kind of brain study, brain research, that was talked about in the book that that came back to the same result, which is, kids need to feel connected because that is going to help them to access their prefrontal cortex and their higher order thinking skills. Exactly,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 41:37
yeah. When you're in that fight or flight stage, you don't have access to the part of the brand that allows you to have empathy, creativity, problem solving skills, all of those things that can be really helpful if you want to learn. Yeah?
Casey O'Roarty 41:52
Wow. Awesome. Yeah. So what about one of the other principles? Give us some more. This is really cool.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 41:58
Okay, so one of the others that I thought was fascinating is the research from a man named Edward DC, and that's spelled D, as in dog E, C, I. Edward DC is a professor of psychology at the University of Rochester, PhD in psychology, and he has probably written more research and done more research studies on intrinsic motivation than anybody else on the planet. So he's highly respected in his field. He gets cited over and over in behavioral science and social psychology, and he knows probably more than anybody else does on the topic of intrinsic motivation.
Casey O'Roarty 42:38
And remind the listeners of what that intrinsic motivation means. Well, what it really
Marcilie Smith Boyle 42:42
means, it's, it's intrinsic motivation is defined as something that is inherently interesting or enjoyable, but broadly what I think of it in terms of positive discipline, is having the desire to do something, as opposed to being made to do something so you want to do it and and what DC said about motivation is that motivation is not something you do to a person. It comes from within. Okay? It concerns the energy to move and what all. Most of his research, well, a lot of his research is done around the idea of what happens when people are extrinsically motivated, like made to do something or CO or tempted to do something, versus when they do something on their own volition, they have autonomy over it. And what he found in all of his research, over and over again is that intrinsic motivation, so wanting to do the right thing by yourself is much more likely to happen when three basic psychological needs have been met. These three needs are innate, so they're not learned, they're just natural, very basic to humans, and if they're satisfied, will allow optimal function and growth, and those three things are so see if these ring any bells. The first is relatedness. Relatedness is the universal want to interact, be connected to and experience caring for others. Does that sound like any other term, you know, in Adlerian style,
Casey O'Roarty 44:16
psychology, belonging Exactly. So that's
Marcilie Smith Boyle 44:20
the first one. The second is competence, this seeking to control the outcome of something and experience mastery. And the third is autonomy, and that's just the desire to have some control over your life. And it doesn't mean being independent of others, but it means having some sense of control.
Casey O'Roarty 44:44
I like the word I like the word influence. I've been playing with the word influence and recognizing that we have so much more influence around our current and I talk about this with my kids all the time, too, around our current situation. Yeah, then we realize, because then we have to be accountable for when we're influencing the situation that maybe isn't what we wanted, right,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 45:09
right? And parents also recognizing that we do have a lot of influence, and when we allow our child to share that influence, because they feel some autonomy, the intrinsic motivation goes way up. Yeah, nice. And we've all seen that, right? We've all seen now that so competence and autonomy, feeling competent and capable, and feeling like you have some sense of control. That to me, that sounds to me a lot like that second part of the Adlerian equation, the significance, does it to you?
Casey O'Roarty 45:43
Yeah? Totally, yeah. I matter. Yeah,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 45:46
I matter. I'm capable. I'm worthy. So. And what edwardesi is saying is when, when these three basic psychological needs are met, so when children feel they perceive that their belonging, significance, bucket is full, their intrinsic motivation is now allowed, has the space and room to bubble up and act. And what his summary, DC summary of 800 studies of this contrasting autonomous motivation, so allowing people to have some sense of control and competence and relatedness versus extrinsic motivation when they have more of that autonomous motivation, the outcomes are greater persistence, greater flexibility, greater creativity, greater adjustment of well being, greater enjoyment and interest. Of course, maybe not surprising, but also better physical health, wow. And then, as we know, we also get more cooperation, more, you know, more fun relationship times and just more engagement and follow through,
Casey O'Roarty 47:01
and it's more fun to be a parent,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 47:05
yeah? And it takes the pressure off, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 47:07
yeah. Well, and I, and that's I, that's something that I love. I think you mentioned earlier, the asking versus telling a curiosity questions is a positive discipline tool that we talk about a lot, and I love that tool because it's like you don't have to do everything, like you don't have to be doing everything. Please share the control with your child. Let them develop that autonomy. And now what I'm hearing you say is that it's good for their brain. It's what their brain deeply desires,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 47:36
right? And when we feed that basic need there, we get better outcomes, both for us and for them and the community as a whole. And we've all seen this probably, you probably have a million stories. I know you do because I've read your stories and I hear your stories, and I you too, of when you finally get the AHA that Oh, I don't need to solve all of my child's behavior problems or problems, I can invite them to participate, yeah, in finding the solution that often the solution is way better. And of course, the intrinsic motivation, the desire to follow through, is greater. So I have a little story, a little great. It's not her story about that one an example. It's not of Me, but it's one of the moms who is just went through my online parenting class. She said she had a three year old, and they were at family nature camp, which was a place that had a lot of red soil on the ground. And the three year old, one of the things he loved to do is take big handfuls of the red dirt, throw it up in the air and get like an explosion of red dirt, and it was so cool, and he was enthralled by it, but the result was he got caked with red dirt all in his hair. Gets all stuck in his hair. And when he got back to the to the the little cabins, his mom said, Well, you know you're in dirt, so you need to take a shower. Well, he ate at showers, and he would scream and complain. And the second day it happened again, screaming, complaining. And then the third day, the mom gets an aha, and she said, you know, this doesn't seem to be working. It's really fun to throw the dirt up, and I think that's great, and it gets all over your sheets and the cabin, which is not great, so that's why I want you to shower. You hate showering. What else could we do? She said, he's only three, by the way. Okay, so what can we do?
And this little three year old said, Well, Mom, why don't you put my head over the sink and just wash my hair that way, because that way the water won't sting my eyes. Okay? So she's like, great. She does it. And she said he was so, quote, blissed out that his mother would take his suggestion. Question, he sat under the sink blissfully and joyfully and saying, like, Mommy, I love you so much. So you could see how giving him some autonomy, helping him solve the problem, fed that intrinsic motivation. Well,
Casey O'Roarty 50:16
okay, so I love that story, and I love I love that story. And there. It's so funny how often, like that mom could have very well gone into that conversation hoping that he would say, I'm not going to throw the dirt anymore, right?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 50:32
And it's not going to scream when we get in the show, right? And
Casey O'Roarty 50:36
that's, you know? And I think that's a really fun place to check ourselves as parents, when we ask these questions and invite in their solutions, is to notice when we're going in with an answer that we want to hear and how, and doing the work of just releasing that and being really open to the ideas and suggestions that your children have, and sometimes I mean, and trusting the process, trusting that in the end, because it came from them, that it's going to be helpful, yeah, that's cool.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 51:08
And letting go of needing to have a perfect solution, because one that's like 60% good, but your child buys in, means that you've opened up space for them to be motivated by themselves, to follow through.
Casey O'Roarty 51:25
And how exciting when that just becomes the normal way of being in relationship with your kids. I mean, this child is three. Imagine when six and 12 and 16, and it becomes, you know, different kinds of conversations, and he's included in the in the in the thought process. I think that it develops. I'm sure the research shows,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 51:47
but it sure does, too that that's
Casey O'Roarty 51:49
okay. We'll just trust it, that it, you know, it's developing that part of the brain where, you know, because they become teenagers, and they kind of lose a little they prune, they do some pruning in the brain. And pled the pleasure place becomes a little bit more well developed than the is this a good idea place? Those are the technical terms for those parts of the brain, by the way. Yeah. And so anything we can do to keep that, is this a good idea part of the brain in growth process, I think, is really
Speaker 1 52:22
because if you don't use it, you lose it. Yeah, we want to use it, not lose it, right?
Casey O'Roarty 52:28
Awesome. Well, what else do you got? Do you have anything like you mentioned solutions as a principal? Do you have any? Did you have any research that you were going to share around that?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 52:38
Well, the example I shared is really about, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 52:41
totally. Sorry, getting involved.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 52:43
So the last bit, if Do we have time for one more little bit?
Casey O'Roarty 52:46
We have time for one more little bit? Yes, okay, bring it. So this, this
Marcilie Smith Boyle 52:50
last piece, I mean, and there's, there's other stuff to the Harvard grant study. You should check that out. People, if you haven't already, Carol Dweck work on growth mindset, fascinating research. There's a lot of good stuff, but this last one that I wanted to share is from Daniel Pink. He is an author and lecturer on economic transformation in the workplace, but he wrote, and he wrote a business book called Drive. The subtitle is this, you've heard of this The Surprising Truth About What Motivates us and but it has major implications for parenting as well. And in this book, he cites some research from Mark Lepper and David Green. It was done a long time ago, 1978 and it was captured in a volume, a research volume called the hidden costs of rewards and and this piece of research, what they did is they divided preschoolers into three groups. But all everybody in all three groups was the same mix of ages, temperaments, and all of them loved to draw. And the experiment was designed to see whether a reward or a promise of one would motivate the desire to produce more artwork. So three groups, group A these little preschoolers, when they get to school, they're told that they'll get a reward every time they create a drawing. And they were shown this certificate, complete with the blue ribbon in their child's name. So you go dry, you're going to get this beautiful certificate. Group B is told nothing at all, and they just they watch whether they draw or not, not promised a reward, not shown anything after. Then Group C, this group of preschoolers, is told nothing in advance, but if they do create some artwork, they get that same certificate that the first group was promised. So Group A, they're promised a reward. Group B, they're told nothing. Group C, they're told nothing, but they get a reward if they draw two weeks later back in the classroom, teachers placed markers in paper and other arts of. Eyes out on a table during the students free period, and they just tracked which students engaged in the artwork. So which group do you think produced the least amount of artwork? The
Casey O'Roarty 55:12
ones who were initially told they would get an award?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 55:16
Okay? So you're right. Okay, right now, most people would predict that, you know that they would produce the most artwork because they promised this beautiful little certificate, right? But
Casey O'Roarty 55:25
I'm highly intelligent. Well, you're also, I saw that one kind of you read that book,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 55:32
and it actually they did. They produced the least amount of of artwork. The other two groups produced the exact same amount of, Oh, interesting, yeah, so, so the ones that got a reward after they did not produce any more than the group who got nothing after. So the interesting, the conclusion that the researchers came to was that it wasn't necessarily the rewards that dampened the children's enthusiasm for art. It was the contingent reward. It was the if you do this, then you get that the if then rewards. That's called a contingent reward. That kind of reward requires people to give up some of their autonomy, yeah, and and they lost some of the motivation to produce artwork. So contingent, rewards are a form of control, and because autonomy, that sense of significance of having control over my destiny, is such a major driver of intrinsic motivation that rewards often backfire, right?
Casey O'Roarty 56:37
And would you put praise in the same category as rewards, praise being like, lots of attaboy, good job well done. Like that empty kind of,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 56:46
you know, yeah, it could be. But the contingent reward would be like, you know, if you get an A, then I'm gonna take you out to ice cream, yeah? But to tell them in advance, like the if then is, is the part of the equation that can really eat away at that intrinsic motivation
Casey O'Roarty 57:04
so fascinating and and what I really hope people are hearing is the connection with the parenting, but also even bigger than that, like they we all have developing brains, right? We all have developing brains. So listeners, as you're hearing this, yes, make those connections between in your relationship with your kids, but also make those connections even within the relationship you have with yourself. Because this is really powerful stuff. And it's research, okay, it's science.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 57:35
And that book, I have to say, drive that book, is very readable. Oh, cool.
Casey O'Roarty 57:41
I haven't read it, but I think I have. Oh, it's so
Marcilie Smith Boyle 57:43
good, so many examples of how rewards and punishments backfire. And make the assumption, you know, when you reward your child to do something you want them to do, you're kind of making the assumption that, well, you don't have it in you to do that on your own, so you kind of need this extra something to get you over them. So it kind of sends a message too about trust and belief in their capability. And that can can backfire, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 58:12
and I think that this comes back to what always comes up on the podcast, which is really, you know, the power of relationship, the power of being in really good relationship. And I think that the good news is there are so many, or at least in my world, and maybe it's just because I've cultivated it so well. But I think that there's so many people, more and more people are gravitating toward this style of parenting because it feels good to be in relationship with our children. And so just in closing, as you know, listeners are hearing you. They're listening to you. What would you say? What was be a baby step that you would offer a parent who's interested in growing their positive discipline practice?
Marcilie Smith Boyle 58:53
So a baby step? There's one baby step that would be something that a way to learn or deepen your knowledge and commitment. And I really think taking a class, I mean, I know this sounds self serving, but personally like reading books is helpful, but I got so much more out of the experience of taking a good class. And you could take it there's so positive discipline. Curriculum is so rich. So to find someone in your area and take a class and redirecting children's behavior, I think, is another Adlerian program that is excellent. Also experiential. Those hand in hand is really great, too. I think there's getting that experience would be a baby. So maybe that, maybe that's not such a baby step so well, I think this step, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 59:43
well, and I think that it also speaks into the power of learning with a community of people, yeah. I think that that is so, so, so helpful. And, you know, yeah,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 59:53
feeling like, Okay, I'm not the only one whose child is driving me crazy.
Casey O'Roarty 59:57
I like to say, Oh, I don't live in. My Own Private freak show, right? Hallelujah. So exactly I know there's one more
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:00:04
baby step, though, okay, really is a baby step, right? And this baby step is, is a tool from positive discipline called eye to eye. You know this one? Yeah, I know you know this one, and that is to simply, and this is a challenge I'll give every listener out there. The challenge is, for every interaction that you have with your child over the next 48 hours, get eye to eye, and by that, I mean rather than, you know, yell across the room or from across the playground or the park, move to where your child is, get their eye contact or attention, maybe with some gentle touch and make your respectful request from that place. Love that. And that's a baby step. It's super easy to implement, and I'm always really pleasantly amazed at what positive results people get just from that tiny little change,
Casey O'Roarty 1:00:56
right? Love that. Thank you for sharing that. So I don't know if I asked this last question that I have for you the last time. I don't know if I was doing this when you weren't. I wasn't because you were one of my early, early guests. Yeah, everyone number nine. Thank you for that. Everyone. Go back to episode number nine and listen to our other conversation, because that was a great conversation. Yeah, um, what does joyful courage mean to you? Marcily, yes, and
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:01:24
I've heard you ask this to everyone, and it makes me curious about what it means to you. So maybe you can answer that. Have you already? No,
Casey O'Roarty 1:01:33
I don't. Nobody's ever turned it back on me like that. Well,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:01:36
you named your company this. It must have some, you know, some meaning for you. I'll tell you what it means for me, and then you can, then you can share if
Casey O'Roarty 1:01:44
you feel like you want to. Oh, thank you for
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:01:46
me. So courage alone, like just courage, courage. Courage is about being brave. You know about feeling some fear, but doing it anyway, and and I think that takes like determination and focus and courage has, it has a feeling of a little bit of feeling of of seriousness, like, oh, okay, I get that. But when you add the joyful to it, it adds some fun, it adds some lightness. So joyful courage is like being courageous in a fun way. It's a choice about how you want to, I guess, practice your bravery.
Casey O'Roarty 1:02:27
Yeah, oh, I like that. So that
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:02:31
for me, what happened? Yeah, well,
Casey O'Roarty 1:02:33
I mean, you know, it's funny, because I feel like it's, it changes, it evolves. It's like, you know, we were talking before I hit record about, you know, if you're in the work of continuously learning about yourself, then you continuously are arriving at this place of, like, oh, okay, I get it, until you're at the other place of, oh, wait, actually, there's more. So I think, right now today, what joyful courage means to me is, you know, and in the context of parenting, like I mentioned earlier, I think that parenting is an opportunity for adults to really recognize that life is a continuous growth process and that the people that come into our lives, you know? I mean, there's people that come into our lives and we get to decide, you know, do you stay? Do you go? You know? And then there's our children, right? And they come into our lives and they don't go anywhere, and regardless of how they show up, you know, it's it takes to me when I think about courage, I think about vulnerability and I think about being open and trusting. Those are the kind of ways of being that show up for me. I think around courage, well, they do, and all of that, oh, man, like everybody, gets kind of uncomfortable when you talk about, like vulnerability and trusting and and, and I think that, like you said, really similar the joyful part is like being light in that learning, being open to it, saying yes, even when you don't know the how to get there, saying yes. My own personal coach is gonna love to hear me say that, saying yes, without knowing the how and holding it in lightness and possibility today, that is what joyful courage means to me. Thank you so much for asking.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:04:27
And I love how I really appreciate your acknowledgement that it changes. Yeah, and as we grow maybe 10 podcasts from now, you'll define it differently. Maybe
Casey O'Roarty 1:04:37
I will. We'll see if anyone asks. Okay, so marceli, where can people find you and follow your work? And I know you have an offer coming up, so please share about that as well. Okay,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:04:49
well, thank you for asking. I do have two invitations that I want to extend to everybody who's listening today, and you can find my work on working. Parenting.com working parenting.com and or facebook.com/coach marcily. And my name is spelled really weirdly, M, A, R, C, I, L, I, E, so that's where you can find me and some of my work. And I have two invitations like I said, first is a free teleclass. It's called, it's coming up February 8, and it is called Six obstacles to peaceful, positive parenting and how to get around them. And I will share, because I've been coaching now since 2012 and so I'll share some patterns that I've seen in my people and then also myself. What are the six most common things that trip us up? And some tips to get around them so that, again, is happening Wednesday, February, 8, from 12 to one Pacific time. It's just an hour, and we'll
Casey O'Roarty 1:05:52
make sure there's links listeners to a link to that in the show notes. So if you're thinking, yes, yes, you can get the link in the show notes for today. Okay, fantastic.
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:05:59
And then the second is a bigger offer for people who are ready to go way more, much more deeply and get the full positive discipline curriculum. I'm offering an eight week interactive online class over video conference. We'll meet weekly. It's called peaceful parents, cooperative kids, and each week, we'll dive into more of the tools and perspectives that will help you as a parent feel more joy and ease in this process of parenting, and also help you raise respectful, kind, resilient and resourceful children. So lots of good stuff in there. And the great thing about an eight week series too is you get that community support, like you mentioned, you also get lots of practice. So I will give people a weekly practice like just like I gave you all today, the challenge to get eye to eye with your children for every interaction, every week in this class, will have something to practice so that by the end of it, some of those parenting behaviors feel more natural and habitual. So that series is starting March 1, and it's going to be from 11 to 1230 pacific time again, in a virtual classroom will be live, and in person will not. I mean, your face is going to be on the screen along with everybody else. And I can, I've got a whiteboard, and it feels like a classroom, and then and those classes will be recorded for replay. Great, yay.
Casey O'Roarty 1:07:23
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Marci, you shared so much interesting, helpful forwarding information. I really appreciate your time. Well,
Marcilie Smith Boyle 1:07:31
thank you for the invitation. Casey, it's always a pleasure. And I just would like to thank you and acknowledge you for doing this podcast and getting this awesome information out into so many people's hands in the world.
Casey O'Roarty 1:07:42
Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:44
You're welcome.
Casey O'Roarty 1:07:51
There you go. Marceli Smith, Boyle, Isn't She Great? She's so smart. I'm so glad that she took the time to come on the show and share what gets her excited. And I'm so, so honored that you have taken the time to listen in, and I really hope that you're taking away some valuable information. And yeah, so there you go. There you go. Another week of the joyful courage podcast, again, there will be links in the show notes around how to get in on marsley's offer. There will also be links to where you can find joyful courage in the social media world. I have a business page on Facebook, simply called joyful courage. I'm on Instagram at joyful underscore courage. I also run a closed Facebook group called live and love with joyful courage that you are welcome to join. It's a really positive, safe, supportive community of people who are saying yes to the journey of being their best selves as often as they can. Super exciting. And you know, if you're interested in any of the offers that I provide, or to see what else you can get from me, head on over to joyful courage.com that's my website, and you'll see I have a few e courses there, and there's a sign up for the living, joyful courage membership program, which registration will open up again the end of March. That is turning into a incredible offer. Oh my gosh, so so fun. So yeah, there's lots of ways, lots of ways to keep up with the learning. So find me, follow me, and put your voice into the community so that you can help be a part of impacting at least 1 million children in 2017 because I have made that declaration for all of us. What else do I want to tell you? Big Love. Have a great, great week. Live into your intended way of being right. Live into your intended way of being live it, love it, and don't beat yourself up when you don't show up as your best, because it's just an opportunity to get to practice awareness and making amends and making things right. Big Love to all of you on the parenting journey, on the life journey, know that you can always reach out to me with questions and feedback. My email is Casey at joyful courage.com. All right, friends, have a beautiful, beautiful day, and I'll see you again next
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