Eps 45: Deborah MacNamara helps us Make More Sense of our Kids

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful courage parenting podcast episode 45 is brought to you from joyfulcourage.com Yes, my website, it is a great place. Have you played around there? I want to tell you about an offer that I have on the joyful courage.com website, and it is called the centered parenting e course, it is on demand, and it is a five week e course. The idea behind the centered parenting e course is to create space for parents to get to know the parts of themselves that their children are here to grow. You hear me talking about that a lot on the podcast, my children are my teachers. Your children are your teachers. They show up for a reason, and part of the reason is to highlight the various places that we have yet to grow. Once we can locate these areas, we can begin to grow and evolve in a way that invites and builds strong relationships with our kids and encourages them to grow as well. This course is delivered over a five week period, and uses audio meditations to ignite your centered spirit, videos that dig deep into positive discipline, parenting tools and E workbooks to explore further what you're learning and noticing about your own Parenting, joyful courage, raising our children while growing ourselves. You

Hi, listeners, thank you so much for tuning in to this podcast. You're gonna love my guest. She is brilliant and has so much to teach us about the young brain in development and what happens when we really start taking a look at what it means to grow attachment with our children. My guest is Dr Deborah McNamara. She is on faculty at the Newfield Institute and author of rest, play, grow, making sense of preschoolers or anyone who acts like one. I love that title. She presents, teaches and writes on all facets of child and adolescent development based on the relational developmental approach of Gordon Newfield. She is also a private practice in private practice where she offers counseling services to parents and professionals in making sense of learning, behavioral and developmental issues in kids. Deborah is a dynamic teacher and experienced counselor who makes developmental science come to life in the everyday context of home and classroom. And I'm so honored to have her on the joyful courage podcast, and I think that you're gonna love her too. So let's meet Deborah. You

Deb Hi there. Deborah, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 3:06
Thanks very much. Casey, lovely to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 3:08
Please tell my listeners a little bit about your journey to doing what you do.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 3:14
Well, I work as a counselor and as an educator at the Neufeld Institute, where I work with Dr Gordon Neufeld. I've known him for about 10 or 12 years now. I found him when I first became a parent with two young children, and thought that his approach, his developmental, relational approach to making sense of kids, was exactly what I needed and wanted as a parent and as a professional. Okay, well,

Casey O'Roarty 3:37
tell us a little bit more about that Newfield philosophy, because I am new to Gordon Newfields work, although I've heard his name, you know, out and about in the parent world for a long time. But for those of us that are that are coming new to his philosophy, can you tell us a little bit about the guiding principles of Newfields philosophy?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 3:56
Sure, he's a developmental and relational psychologist that's internationally well known, that began with the book called hold on to your kids, that he wrote with Gabor Mate that looked at the phenomena of pure orientation, or when our children become more attached to their peers than they are to their adults. And at the core of the Neufeld approach is this idea that making sense of kids to the adults who are responsible for them is actually the best place to help a parent become the answer to a child's needs, that when we have insight into their needs and how they grow, that that moves a parent from that place of instinct and emotion to provide for them. So our approach is very much putting adults in the driver's seat and caring for their kids, and we use language that is intuitive so that it renders a parent much more intuitive in terms of what a child needs, and puts insight at the fore, rather than parenting skill. So none of our interventions are contrived or divorced from developmental science, and of course, it's based in relation. Science, which is about how adults are the answer to a child's hunger for connection, and that really with this relationship, we're fostering a dependent relationship where a child turns to us for emotional support and guidance, and that we must become caretakers for their hearts. So the whole point of developmentalist, developmentalist approach really is concerned at the core with the unfolding of human potential. So how do we become separate social and adaptive beings?

Casey O'Roarty 5:30
I love caretakers for their hearts. That's really sweet. And what I'm hearing you speak into as well is you know, the more that we can know about what's happening developmentally for our kids, the easier it becomes to navigate our own emotional overload, when the behavior, when the behavior shows up with kids and it's inconvenient, or, you know, however we want to judge the behavior as the adult in the situation, the more knowledge we have around what's happening developmentally allows us to take it less personally, absolutely

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 6:06
it is. It is about our expectations. You know, if we expect something differently from them, we're often very frustrated when they can't meet our expectations. So yeah, it's absolutely about this insight, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 6:18
and I know that for me as a parent, I am my best self when I'm not taking things personally, for sure. So what? Oh, go ahead. I was

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 6:30
just gonna say, I think we're our best, you know, parent, spouse, friend, when that is true, right? It leads to all sorts of misunderstandings and missteps.

Casey O'Roarty 6:40
Yeah, definitely what's happening developmentally with our preschoolers. Because you have a before we actually, before we go. There you have a new book coming out. Is it out yet? It's not out? Yes, I would it just, just released. Awesome, a book that was just released. Rest, play, grow, making sense of preschoolers or anyone who acts like one, by Deborah McNamara. So you have some great insight into this age group, which I'm really excited to talk to you about. A lot of the clients that I work with have preschoolers. Listeners and people that I interact with online have preschoolers. So what is happening developmentally with our preschoolers?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 7:21
Well, preschoolers, the age range I would say, for preschoolers, is anywhere from two to six. So it encapsulates the toddler, preschooler, kindergarten ages. And what we know is that their brains are very immature. It takes about five to seven years for their brains to resemble in functioning more like an adult brain, and so as a result, they're incredibly impulsive. They only do one thing at a time, and usually the focus of their attention is themself. And so thoughts about consideration or caring or sharing or getting along, these are really overrated when it comes to them, because the goal of a young child of development is really to focus on oneself and to become a separate person. So they're very untempered as they should be, and very impulsive, very egocentric. And this isn't a fault or failing. This is actually developmental by design.

Casey O'Roarty 8:11
Yeah, something that I often will say to parents is, you know a priest, you know a three year old that's or a two year old that's jumping on the couch, even though you've told them over and over and over not to jump on the couch, is actually listening to the louder voice inside of their body saying, jump, leap, explore, play.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 8:32
Absolutely well. Said, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 8:34
so Deborah, tell us a little bit about the importance of play in preschool development, and what the parents role is in this?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 8:44
Well, play is the leading edge of development, and I'm passionate about preserving play for young children. I think oftentimes it gets pushed to the side, thinking that this is something more frivolous or a luxury of childhood, but we actually see that most of the growth actually happens here, and the reason for that is because it's a place that's free of consequences, and it's a place that a child should feel very free to be expressive and exploratory. It shouldn't be a place that a child has to work at, and when a child isn't at work, that's when a child grows most of all. Now, the interesting thing about play is that there's a lot of different things that come from that. Not only is there incredible brain development, but children actually express a lot of their emotions in their play, and so that keeps the emotions, tends to keep them much more balanced, and helps a lot of those emotions come to the surface that they may have experienced during any given day. It is also the place where we find our interests, where we sort of hear, where a child hears himself resonating in the world around them and is drawn to particular things. It's the very unfolding of our you know, our early occupations. You know teachers to lawyers to you know gardeners. You can see that the they'll Express. Themselves in their world along particular lines of interest, and they'll have a particular bent. And so you really start to see a child move to become a separate person and play. Now the question that you asked, which is a great one, which is, what's the parents role in that? I get a lot of parents asking me, Does this mean I have to play with them all the time? Well, I think it's wonderful that you would play with your kids and that you find something that's enjoyable for both of you to do. Really, the type of play that leads to this strong development is really something a child usually does on their own. Sometimes they can do it with a sibling, but it really is a personal type of endeavor for a child. So in order to release a child to play, really what a parent needs to do is to provide enough contact and closeness the so that a child isn't sort of looking to get their attachment needs met. If they can take for granted, their attachment needs will be met, then usually they will move into play. That's of course, if they don't have any excess stimulation or are hungry or tired or that kind of thing. It's kind of a fleeting type of space that you have to have the right luxuries in your life, but attachment is the biggest thing that must work for them this way.

Casey O'Roarty 11:06
Yeah, tell me a little bit more about that, because I remember being a mom of a young daughter and hearing these other moms say, Oh yeah, you know, my child, they'll just sit and play by themselves for you know, a good 45 minutes. And I remember looking at them and thinking, Are you kidding me right now? Because I cannot even get two feet away from this kid. So, um, so tell talk to me a little bit about that whole having their attachment needs met. And if there are listeners thinking like, wow, how I know that my child isn't,

you know, kind of paint a picture of the typical play situation. Are we talking like long periods of time, short periods of time. How can a parent know if their child is in it, you know, a healthy relationship with play? Okay?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 12:09
Well, the more the child is hungry for connection, obviously, the harder it is to satiate them. And children who are younger, I would say under the age of three, you will see that there really are just creatures of attachment. So they stay pretty close. But by the time they're about two and a half and three, you'll start to see these little expressions of, you know, wanting to venture forth and do it myself, and I do, and no, leave me alone. And you can see this child is, you know, starting to, you know, spread their wings a little bit and try out stuff. And so you know what you want to do to try to promote them moving into expression and exploration, is to have some cuddle time, or whatever, some contact and closeness where you have a conversation. You might feed them. You might read them a book and then introduce them to some play, you know, set up the block. Set up whatever it is that they might be drawn to, and slowly try to find yourself retreating to a more background position. Don't occupy yourself with anything like don't pick up the phone, because that usually hijacks all attention.

Casey O'Roarty 13:09
We all know that they

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 13:12
start to circle you like a shark at that point, right? So pretend like you are still available without sort of being in their place, and see if they can sort of withstand and, you know, play on their own for a little bit. A child who's three is just starting to come into this place. A child who's five would exhibit this a little bit more freely, where you will see that they're not as preoccupied with their attachment needs, if developments all going well. And so it really is about making sure that you've taken care of the very basic hungers that they have, including relationships, and then giving them some space to do it. And you know, what is that? What's going to be in that space that will help facilitate it? You know, is your child drawn to arts and crafts? Is it taking them outside with, you know, equipment, or running around like, you know, balls, or whatever it might be, and really facilitating the space for a child to sort of venture forth within. But yeah, as a child gets older, you would see that they would be able to have focused attention on Play for greater amounts of time.

Casey O'Roarty 14:12
Yeah, I like that. I like that gradual unfolding, right? And I And would you say that temperament comes into play here too? I mean, are there just going to be kids that are those independent more or less, not less needy, but because it's not needy, it's just hungry for for attachment, like you said, and connection, I talk a lot about connection, but do you think that, you know, kids come with different temperaments, so there's obviously going To be some kids that this is going to be going to be a really easy unfolding, versus the others that might feel a little bit more nervous about it.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 14:48
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, I do think so. Because I think that when you look at the research, you see that at least one in five children are have a temperament that's more sensitive, meaning that they're more stirred up by their environment, so they. See, you know, touch, taste, smell, see, seeing, hearing, all the senses can be elevated, and as a result, they can take a little bit longer to satiate and they might be, you know, they just take a little bit longer to be able to be filled up, yeah, and release to their place. So, yeah, I think it's, you know. And again, a parent will know that that child, they might have, one that is this way, and one that isn't, and they'll see that one seems to have much more freedom and ease in being in the world, and the other one seems to be a little bit more stirred up. So it's about giving each child what they need for that freedom, for that bias to play, to unfold

Casey O'Roarty 15:32
well. And I like that idea around, you know, filling them up with snuggles and connection prior to then, you know, helping them move towards more independent time and play, right? So I think that's that's so key. And I think in our busy world, sometimes we forget about that, which leads me right into my next question for you. So when I work with parents, some of their biggest struggles, especially parents of preschoolers, come from trying to get their preschool to do what they want them to do when they want them to do it right, or they won't. They just won't listen, or they'll say things like, you know, I try all these tools, but really what gets them moving is when I'm finally yelling at them. Tell me about how you work with parents of preschoolers around staying connected while also staying connected with their kids, while also leading those same kids in the direction of where they want them to be going.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 16:34
Yes, this is, this happens to be probably, well, this is one of the areas I get asked the most about is just the resistance and opposition that seems to be so part and parcel of the young child and we and of course, it can frustrate parents to no end that we have our own agendas, and our child has another one. Darn it, yes. You know, as I write in the book, you know, someone said to me, you know, my mom and I did well until I was three, and I had my own mind, and then we just disagreed from thereafter. And the whole idea here is, of course, is that this resistance and opposition is actually coming from a very healthy place. It's called the counter will instinct, and it's an instinct to resist others when one feels coerced. Now you might think, well, what is nature intending here? We have to tell our kids what to do. Like, how is this going to work? Well, the other instinct that children come with is, of course, their need for attachment, and the attachment instinct. And so if a child is not a young child is not in active attachment with us, because they can only hold on to one thing at a time. If they're not actively engaging with us, then we've kind of disappeared in terms of their attachment instincts. So if you go in cold with your request, meaning that you haven't engaged their attachment instincts before making it the chance of being resisted or meeting with some opposition and young child is going to be quite high, because they really just don't operate without being collected. First, they need us to move in in a friendly way. Now we can't always do that, of course, and so that's why structured routine is, you know, one of the saving graces of being a parent is we set up our structure and routine. What do mornings look like? What do evenings look like? Bath time, bed time, food time. If you go into any preschool, you will see that they have a very clear structure and routine, because the kids will attach to that, and that actually serves to give them direction without having to actively collect them each time that you need them to move on. I think the big thing that happens here is it does rile parents up. There's no doubt about it. No one likes to give their child the direction and be met with opposition. I think the key thing here is, is that we're is to keep in mind that we're never going to get rid of this. This is a very healthy instinct in a child. It means that the only people that can boss them around are the people that they are attached to. And the other thing is, is that it's serving development by helping them become their own, separate individual person. The more they grow, the more they become more separate, the more I DOS, me dos this is who I am, that they have, the less likely they're going to feel pushed upon and coerced by other people. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 19:07
and I, you know, I can't help I don't have preschoolers anymore. I have a 10 year old son and a 13 year old daughter, and I just can't help but remind parents that we want them to flex their no muscle, because one day they will be teenagers or middle schoolers and high schoolers, and they will be confronted by all sorts of requests and offers, and we want them to be that I am an individual. I have my own opinions. I can say no, I can walk away, right? So that it's so funny, well, not really funny, but it's so interesting how resistance and opposition is so irritating in the preschool years, but then becomes such an amazing leadership skill when confronted by some of the craziness that that shows up later on. And you know, I think that I love what you're talking about, structure and routines. It's something that I am promoting. All the time on the podcast and with my clients, also those in the end that whole so when I hear you say active attachment, can you? Can you make that distinction? What exactly is active attachment when you're talking about it?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 20:13
Well, the if you're not sort of front and center in a preschoolers face, they can only attend to one thing at a time. So only one part of the world comes into view. And so when you're collecting a child, you're trying to engage their their instincts to be in relationship with you. And we do this very simply with adults. We say, Hello, how are you? We usually talk about the weather, and we're looking for some sort of receptivity. Is this person we're trying to read? The person is? Is this person wanting to engage with me? How are they answering me? What's their body language? And so our emotional centers are picking up all sorts of cues and information about the receptivity to the relationship when we're, you know, sort of just venturing in for Hello. And this is really key with our kids. But I think we forget, we forget the importance of this, because we see ourselves in our role as a parent, therefore we are to lead. I'm not disagreeing with that. Their attachment instincts aren't always in the same place, and so we need to move in, especially with them, because as soon as they play with something, they see the cat, you know, they're often running in their head in a different direction. And so we have to engage the attachment instincts. We have to get in their face and collect them, collect the eyes, collect a nod. Look for receptivity. And when we give our directions in the context of that, the resist, resistance and opposition will go down, and everything inside of them should be move, moving to follow us. Oh, I

Casey O'Roarty 21:37
love that. And what I typically refer to that as is, you know, connecting, right? Yeah. Just, I love the the way you said, we have to collect them, though, and all of those different ways that we know that they are, we are together, they are with us, right? One of the tools that we use in positive discipline is called Connect before correct, or connect before redirect. And it's really like it's really showing up with with the child and saying, Hey, I see you. I see what you're doing. What you're doing is valid to you. Let me connect with you there. And it's time to move on, get your shoes on or do whatever it is. The next thing is for doing so, and because when we don't, you know, we have that lovely power struggle dance that shows up. So

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 22:29
I would say one thing, though, is that, you know, I think that I agree completely with you. I think one thing that we misunderstand about preschoolers a lot is that even when we do all of this, we're still going to get resistance, because it is such an age where do it myself really jumps to the fore. And so I think it's just to bear in mind that this isn't a fault or a defect in the preschooler. This has a developmental purpose when it does rise up, just to take a step back, you might not be able to collect them in that moment or connect with them, but just take a step back, because usually with a preschooler in five minutes, they're onto something else, and you have another go to move in and not to hold it against them. Try to be as less coercive in our tone. You must. You should? You have to move it now. I'm in a hurry and I'm late. You know, this is when the parents agenda gets big like that, they feel very coerced, and they can, they can back up altogether, but I absolutely agree we could try to move into them and connect with them a lot more before we redirected them. I think it would be very helpful for our relationship

Casey O'Roarty 23:35
and when you work with parents so so I'm hearing what you're saying and around you know, sometimes we just got to take that, take that step back, recognize what's happening developmentally. How do you help? What do you what's your advice to parents around managing themselves in that moment? Because, like I said earlier in the conversation, you know, part of the problem is that self management, that, that, that, that, how could you not do what I ask right? And it is a mindset shift, and it happens over time and practice and in relationship. What are some tools or tips that you could share that will just help parents in the process of, you know, not not just stepping back, but being in a place, mentally and emotionally to recognize that that's actually what's going to be helpful, and not just getting louder or more or more, you know, in their face well, you'll

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 24:33
recognize, you know, when you become like your preschooler, because you'll be equally resistance and opposition, you'll find yourself in those power struggles, and they can be very hard. I don't think many parents feel very good about them afterwards. I think there's two things. One is, is that when you have insight that this is developmentally where they're at, it can feel less provocative, because it isn't about defying your authority, it's about the preservation of themselves. I. And so I think it can make it a little bit more palatable. I think the other thing is, is that the place that we have most of our influence is actually not in these incidences. I think oftentimes we think our discipline is meant to correct them so they become more mature. But in actual fact, in these incidences are not the place where our children grow. It's actually about the place where we have to hold on to our relationship and so in these moments, if we can bear in mind that this is just something we need to survive with our dignity intact, with our child's dignity intact, while appearing to be in charge and able to take care of the child, I think that that really is the key message that we need to convey in these moments. This doesn't have to be a teachable moment. This is just about surviving it and doing so in a way that preserves everyone's dignity and the relationship, because it's that same relationship that you'll use to come back and talk to a child later on and say, you know, you didn't want to wear your shoes, you didn't want to wear your jacket, yeah, you didn't want to share today. I can see that's hard. I know you didn't want to do that. This is what I need from you, though. So next time we're going to do that, I need you to listen and do that for me. Can I count on you? Because that's going to be the moment when the growth occurs, is when you come back and you bring your child to your side and try to influence them and point them in the direction you want to go you want to keep them receptive to your caretaking. But if we lose the relationship in those moments we've we're going to dampen or create problems with our receptivity to our message later on. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 26:32
so you had mentioned counter will instinct earlier. So when I coach parents around that conver that later on conversation about, hey, let's talk about what happened earlier. I try to encourage parents to continuously draw forth from the child. So tell me about what your experience was. How did that feel? And then what? What are you going to what are you going to do differently next time? Would you say? Because I feel like that is going to be more powerful, if it's coming from them, than for me to say, Listen, next time, this is what you need to do, and I want to see you do it, and how it how does the counter will instinct work out in like those casual conversations, not casual but you know, after the fact, conversations that we're having with our kids, would you say that it's important that we're that were engaging them into the conversation and pulling ideas out of them. Or what do you think?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 27:25
I think, yeah, I think sometimes you would want to go back around and talk about it, you know, you didn't feel like doing as I asked today. You had lots of resistance. You had your own mind. You wanted to do your own things. Sometimes, as a parent, I choose just to, you know, just, you know, sort of give my child a little bit more room. Yeah, I know I'm using my bossy voice, yes, I know you don't want to be bossed around. I get that we're still gonna go, yeah, we're still gonna do it. But yes, yes, did I use my bossy voice? Yes, I did, and we're still gonna go. So sometimes it's just simply acknowledging that the child has their own resistance and that can actually bring it down. So I would sometimes circle back with a child, and sometimes I wouldn't make everything a teachable moment, that's for sure, because it's just an instinct. And the older they get, the less they'll need to react out of this instinct, just naturally and but there will be some times where they need to have a relationship with it, to realize that sometimes Resistance is futile. There may be some tears that are involved. No, we won't be going to the park without shoes on and without clothes on. And you know, I'd love to get to the park with you sometime today, but I'm sorry this is going to be a no until we get there. And a child may need to find some tears and will comfort them be patient through it. And so children do need to realize at certain times that it is futile as well.

Casey O'Roarty 28:40
Yeah, definitely.

And, you know, and I, and what I'm, what I've come to understand too, is, the stronger the relationship, the work outside of the challenging behavior, the easier it is to say, I love you. And the answer is no, or, you know, or there is no, there happens to not be any choice here. Or I am using my mean mommy. That's what I call it, mean mom voice, and we got to get moving. So it seems like the more that the relationship is intact, the easier it is for them to, you know, go along or be, quote, easy in those moments where it's just like, hey, I don't, we can't. There is no choice here. This is just the situation. Yeah, absolutely,

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 29:31
I think too. The other, the other part of that too, is that there's incredible generosity that is given to a child when we say no and we give them permission to have their feelings. We don't try to change them. You're going to be sad. I can handle this. You know, when we say yes, there's lots of generosity there, but in saying no and then welcoming the feelings of upset that will come, there's incredible caring there as well, that I think also strengthens the relationship, which is what, what I think I hear you saying talk

Casey O'Roarty 29:58
a little bit about. Newfields, five steps to emotional health and maturity. I saw the visual in your book, and I'd never seen it before. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it's just fascinating.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 30:14
Well, I'm really excited about this area. Gordon Neufeld, we've been working on this area, and Gordon has put the pieces of this together in the last couple of years about how emotional development unfolds in a child. And of course, all the findings now in neuroscience is paving the way that this is an incredibly sophisticated development. And so the goal here is, of course, that we want to help our children to become civilized with their emotional expression. But that's actually the end goal, and it starts with an adult having a relationship with the child's emotions, so that we need to make room for the child to have some expression. The idea that they need to calm down or cut it out, will actually press down on those emotions, instead of helping the child have them out in the open, so that we can help name them, we can help foster an awareness and an understanding and an acceptance of them. It's very difficult to have a relationship with an emotion that you can't express or that you have to cut out. What children you know experience in those moments when we say, be quiet, that's not okay, that's mean, don't be upset, don't cry, is that it's not okay to feel that feeling. And so what young children really need is an invitation to have their emotions. Doesn't mean we let them, you know, have them all out all over the place, in every circumstance. We do have to take responsible actions, but that we invite them to come out of a child, and that expression is important, and that we help them with their names for them. You know, that's frustration, that's, you know, worry, because they don't know they learn their language of their heart through us. And so if we don't have a relationship, they won't follow us, and they won't learn their their names for their feelings. And then we need to help bring those feelings into consciousness, where they might have to have their tears about it, and it's just a gentle touch. It could be just room to acknowledge that something was difficult or that they're very happy about something or proud of themselves, and it's just to give a slight nudge to make that feeling a little bit more conscious, because we're not aware, actually consciously, of all the emotions we experience, because we're not supposed to be it would be overwhelming And and it's not what's required. Emotion has a job to do, and that's the the primary focus of an emotion is to make something work for a child. And so being aware of your emotions is actually a luxury, and is something that we continually try to bring our children into awareness about. But the amazing developmental milestone happens, or should happen, hopefully with ideal development, around five to seven years of age, where they can start to mix emotions together. So if we want a child to move with courage, then it will be the mixing of both Fear and Desire at the same time. It's the paralysis that is caused as Fear and Desire brought together that actually creates the courage that is meant to propel them forward. It's the same thing as consideration. There's one side of you that thinks about yourself and your needs, and the other side thinks about the others, and it stops you in your tracks, so that you are moving forward with a considered response of everybody's needs, same with patient self control, forgiveness. All of these virtues that we associate with a mature temperament come from this mixing of emotions. But you can't mix an emotion that you haven't been allowed to express, that you don't have a name for, and that you can't feel vulnerably. So this comes after and is preceded by important steps that we need to take as parents. The ultimate step that leads to civilized relating is, of course, being able to reflect on one's emotions. And this comes after the five to seven shift where a child says, I think I was I think I was frustrated. That's why I did that. You know, I disagree with myself. Next time I'm going to use my words instead of my hits, you know, or in teenagers, where they reflect on how they've acted. And so you can have a dialog and a relationship with your emotions. The primary idea here, of course, is that we can't push emotional development. Adults have an incredibly responsible position to play here in introducing a child to their heart and to taking their time. But what I see happening today is that we're really pushing for emotional self control, and this is something that we get to but we can't expect, especially in these early years. It's even hard for us as adults.

Casey O'Roarty 34:36
Well, that's what I always point out. They do not come with self regulation skills, nor do many of the you know, human adults that we see out in the world. And I love the term civilized relating. I mean, imagine a world where everybody has had a caregiver parent in their life who's taken them through these five steps. It. Be a vastly different place, absolutely and so. And I love what? So I'm looking at the visual right now, Deborah in the book. And there's also these three other parts to it that I'm thinking it looks like it breaks down. So those first, the in the initial years, as we're teaching that giving space for them to express, helping them to name and allowing them to feel that really has to do with the adults relationship to the child's feelings

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 35:34
Exactly. We're leading the show. We're leading the show.

Casey O'Roarty 35:37
And then as they get a little bit older, they're feeling their feelings. They're doing what you called mixing, which is fascinating conversation. We could do a whole podcast on that, oh yeah, and then reflecting that. It's really about the child's relationship to their own feelings. Absolutely. And then finally, once they've, I won't say, mastered, but once they're in the practice of of all of these steps then they get to a place where they're deepening and developing their relationship to others is that which is

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 36:08
absolutely it. And you have the whole developmental roadmap there that first of all, the relationship must be with oneself before one becomes a social being, and that in order to have a relationship with oneself, someone, an adult, must have a relationship with us. And this is what we call the orthogenic principle. It was founded by Hans Berner, which is basically the developmental trajectory that all life unfolds, that that a child must know who they are first, before they become a social being, and that the adult is responsible for helping the child know who they

Casey O'Roarty 36:41
are. Oh, that's awesome. And you know, what's interesting is, whenever I work with parents, we always start with relationship to self, yeah, and helping them to grow their own awareness of their own experience in within the relationship with their family. But if we're not paying attention to what's happening for us internally, then, you know, there's a whole, you know, list of tools and tips and strategies. But if we're not internally recognizing when we are in emotional overload or coming from a place of fear for the future or regret and resentment from the past, then it doesn't really matter what tips or tools or strategies you're pulling out to use with your kids, because it's not helpful,

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 37:28
no, and our kids will certainly be like flashlights to the emotions in ourselves that we struggle with and where we need work. And that's why one of my favorite chapters in the book was how young children grow adults up, because it's a it's a surprise. I think sometimes for us, I know it certainly was for me about how much growth in particular areas they in being their parent, I realized I also needed and so I think parents get surprised by that our focus is always on growing our children up, and we we are then left to see, oh, my goodness, they're making me grow as well. Moment show,

Casey O'Roarty 38:03
oh yeah, I talk about that a lot. Actually, the little tagline to my business is raising our children while growing ourselves. And I love that, yeah. So, thank you. So my last question, Deborah is, I would love to know what does joyful courage mean to you?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 38:19
Yeah, I love this I love this question. I think what it means to me is really about not shying away from our responsibility here as a parent and all that comes with it, you know, is to embrace this as fully and as vulnerably as we can, to have courage to look at ourselves when we fall short, you know, to be the one to say no to our children and welcome the tears and the sadness and the disappointment that will come to have courage in the face of the things that make us afraid, or the things that we have to walk our children into that they're afraid of, and that really being a parent is about, you know, becoming more aware of our imperfections. The more we strive to be emotionally mature, the more ways we'll see we fall short, and that guilt is going to be part of the terrain, and that to give our hearts fully to this as much as we can, and to realize that while our bodies may get tired, you know that, in essence, our love doesn't get tired, and that we can grow. We can grow through this. We can dig deeper. And that the more that we are in relationship with our children, the more that we'll have reasons for why we want to do this.

Casey O'Roarty 39:33
Oh, promise me, you'll come back to the podcast.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 39:35
There's, I would love to come there's

Casey O'Roarty 39:38
so I feel like we just surface, glided over so many big, powerful, amazing tidbits that I would love to dig deeper in with you. Your book is full of such powerful information for parents and caregivers who live and love, live with and love preschoolers when so the book is already out. Yes, they can order. Order it in all the normal places. Yeah,

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 40:02
it's all on online and available internationally through Amazon, Canada. Us great all over the place. Great.

Casey O'Roarty 40:10
Where can listeners find you and follow your work? What are the social media outlets that you're on and what's your website?

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 40:17
So my website is www.mcnamara.ca.

Unknown Speaker 40:21
Okay, Facebook is

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 40:23
dr, Deborah McNamara, and Twitter is at Deb McNamara, great.

Casey O'Roarty 40:28
I will have links to all of that listeners in the show notes as usual, so you can find it there. Deborah, thank you so much for coming on my show.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 40:36
Sincerely, a delight to meet you, Casey.

Casey O'Roarty 40:39
The feeling is mutual. All right, thank you.

Dr. Deborah MacNamara 40:43
Thank you.

Casey O'Roarty 40:51
Could you tell how much I totally love Deborah McNamara? That was awesome. She is so smart. I love, love, love that she came on to talk about her book and all of the amazing things that she knows about kids in development and attachment,

Unknown Speaker 41:11
all that good stuff. Can

Casey O'Roarty 41:11
you hear my family? They just walked in. They don't care that I'm recording a podcast anyway. Thank you for listening, my friends. I hope that you took a ton of notes, and if you didn't, that's okay, because I did, I left them for you in the show notes, so if there's anything that you missed, check there to see if, if I saved it for you or listen again. And hey, would you do me a favor? Will you tell three people this week about the podcast? Tell three of your parent friends about the podcast and show them how to find it on their phone and help them to subscribe, because this particular podcast comes on the last day of a month with my biggest growth, biggest amount of downloads. So I know that you guys are talking about the podcast, and we are growing it's so exciting, so keep doing it. Thank you so so so much. Thank you, Deborah, for being on the show. Thank you listeners. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you big, huge love to all of you. Have a beautiful day.

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