Today’s guest is Jamie Glowacki, a social worker who worked with dual diagnosis moms, transitioned to owning a children’s store and then became a potty trainer. We are discussing potty training.
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“You have to take off the diapers.”
See our blog on potty training here: Reframing Potty Training: How we can let go to speed up the process
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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 84
Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I am your host, Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and podcast hostess here today to bring you some inspiration information, hopefully wrapped up in a really entertaining package. I'm super excited about today's show. I have Jamie Glowacki on the show. She is the author of, oh crap, potty training. We are going to talk about all about potty training, potty training, do's and don'ts, potty training how to make it ever easier, more helpful for your children. We're going to bust through some of those potty training myths, such as readiness. We're going to talk about fear of release. The difference in genders is there one? Should we be going cold turkey on the diaper. I'm so excited. Jamie is hilarious and awesome and and full of really powerful information. She is your go to potty training gal, and she's on the show today. So really excited that I get to introduce her to you all. Thank you so much. If this is the first time that you're listening into the podcast. Welcome. I'm so glad that you're here and that you found me, and if you've been binge listening to the joyful courage podcast for a while now. Yes, thank you. Thank you for being my supporters, appreciating each and every one of you on this parenting journey that I too am on and really, really excited to hear about what your takeaways are from today's show. So let's meet Jamie.
Hi there, Jamie, welcome to the joyful courage podcast.
Jamie Glowacki 2:19
Hello. Thanks for having me.
Casey O'Roarty 2:20
Please share with the listeners a little bit about your journey of doing what you do.
Jamie Glowacki 2:27
Okay, well, I didn't want to be a potty trainer when I grew up. This wasn't like my big goal. Actually, I was this social worker in San Francisco, and I worked with dual diagnosed moms so they had mental illness on top of substance abuse. And I was not a mom. I was not aware of the mom culture or the mommy hotspots, and I just knew that potty training was an issue. I had clients with diapers, you know, they were four years old, and, I mean, these women didn't have a lot of money to begin with. I was like, why are you paying money for diapers? So I interviewed hundreds and hundreds of moms, my mom's age, you know, the last generation, and I definitely I found how to potty train. I took all their information, and I weeded out the abusive practices, and so I learned how to potty train. I learned how to potty train these kids. It was part of my job. It was part of my salary. I did not think anything of it. Fast Forward, I have my son. I moved back to Rhode Island, and my son was 22 months. And I told, you know, the other moms that I hung out with, I was like, Okay, I'm out for a week. I got a potty train, and it was the first time I was met with this wall of, you can't potty train a boy at 22 months. That's impossible. And I looked at them like they were crazy. I was like, Yeah, you can, this is what you do. So, you know, I took my I took my week, and I potty trained Pascal. And I swear to God, Casey, he was like a rock star around Providence, like we'd go into Whole Foods, and people would be like, is that? Is that the boy potty trained? And I was like, the hack. It was the weirdest thing. And like, playgrounds and everybody. So at the time, I owned a kids store in my neighborhood, and people would come in and ask, you know, are you the potty training lady? So I started holding classes, and I the classes were selling out. I started charging more. They were selling out. Pretty soon, people were coming in, like, not to buy clothes, but to ask me about potty training, and I realized it was, it was my very first inkling people would come in and say, Oh, can you just tell me the trick? Dude? No trick. No trick. It's a process, A to B to C to D. Oh, I need the trick. So then I said, Okay, well, let me write this. Let me write this down for people. You know, yeah, couldn't make my class, so I wrote it down. It was the bare bones of what it is today, and I put it on a website, I think at the time, I didn't know how to cut and paste. And I made this website to give you an idea of how horrible the website and it, you know, it just, you put something out on the internet, and it started to sell. And PD. Nutritions were using it and calling me to ask permission to print it out in their waiting room. And all of a sudden I was on the map, and I found myself answering potty training questions more than I was attending to my store. So I sold my store and I became a full time potty trainer.
Unknown Speaker 5:16
Full time potty trainer,
Jamie Glowacki 5:18
I like to say I'm famous for crap, and this is not lost on any of the people in my life.
Casey O'Roarty 5:26
Well, it's so interesting because, um, like, before we get into your kind of the underlying philosophy, I have a boy who, when I he was my second child, and I looked in i i heard about elimination communication, which is for listeners who don't know, it's this whole movement around no diapers and checking like being really in tune to your slightly obsessed with your child's cues, which I was, you know, at home most of the time, and could do and anyway, I mean, we didn't, we weren't 100% diaper free, but he was potty trained at 18 months. And I couldn't tell people that, because I got so much pushback from other moms of boys, like it kind of pissed them off, so I just kept it to myself and carried on. So it's interesting to hear your story about that. It's
Jamie Glowacki 6:19
hard. It's a really, it's up there with, I'd say, like, vaccinations as a hot topic, and it's one of the things that happens. You know, one of my cardinal rules is, don't post on Facebook when you're about to potty train, because you're going to get so much conflicting comments. And I don't know why, but it's one of the milestones that everybody feels they're an expert on and and so you get this incredible kickback. And I mean, I'm just, I'm a real person. I go out, I hang out, I'm at parties. Just the other day, I was at a baby shower, and it comes up, you know what I do, and people just get so defensive, you know? Well, I'm doing this, and I'm like, that's cool. I'm at a baby shower. Like, I'm not working. I don't like, yeah,
Unknown Speaker 6:58
right. I'm not judging you, I swear,
Jamie Glowacki 7:01
yeah, yeah. And I think there's a misconception too. I always, you know, people, because of the internet and everybody's opinions, is, I actually, I really don't care when you potty train your kid, like, I'm not one of those people are, like, you've got to do it now. But I have worked with so many 1000s of people that you see patterns, right? And, you know, one of the things is that it's just it's so much easier the younger they are, and so that, you know, I get a lot of kickback from that about pushing or they're not ready. And I'm it's kind of crazy, because I go, Well, you know, what are you looking for when you say they're not ready, right? And it's it, you know, wait till they're ready is probably the biggest fight I battle, right? Well,
Casey O'Roarty 7:45
and I'm going to ask you a bit about readiness later on in the show too, because that was a question that came up in my community. Is readiness, right? And what what that word even means? So we'll, we'll dig into that, but before we go there, um, can you tell the listeners a little bit about what is so what is your take? What's kind of your underlying philosophy, or that come from you hold when working with parents around potty training,
Jamie Glowacki 8:10
the number one philosophy. So I often say, I don't have a method. Like people say, Oh, I used your method. And I say, Well, I don't really have a method. You have to take off the diapers. That's how you have to potty train. And say, like, there's a lot of mucking up by the big diaper companies about, you know, pull ups and using a diaper. And it's really hard to ask a child to learn a new behavior while they're actively involved in the old behavior. So having a diaper on a child and expecting them to not use it the way they have for the last two to three years, is asking an immense amount from a small child. It's it's an extended thought process that is really hard. So my biggest philosophy, I would say, is, you know, take the diapers off and deal with what happens. So, you know, all you hear about is what happens the minute you take off the diaper, not how you take off the diaper. My biggest thing, I think, is that this is a process, and it is a learning curve. It's a new skill. And so we've become 140 character instant gratification society, and we don't allow children to learn. I get emails from people who have been potty training for six hours, and they're done, and I'm like, when have you learned a new skill in six hours? Yeah, a big skill, a developmental milestone. So I think the biggest philosophy I have is be patient, be gracious. Allow some time Clear your schedule a little even, to free it up a bit so you're not rushed around trying to go to the potty. Go to the potty, and allow your child the learning curve.
Casey O'Roarty 9:39
Yeah, I so appreciate that. Because whether it's potty training or listening or cleaning up, I think that we get into mischief when we think, like, Okay, I told them once how to do it, and they're not masters at it, like, what's going on, right? And we could
Jamie Glowacki 9:57
say, pee in the pot. Me, and they were all said, Trust me, I would love to be out of a job. That'd be that'd be phenomenal, if
Casey O'Roarty 10:04
that worked, right, right? So what are some of the So, okay, so that misunderstanding around process and around time. What are some other like, what are some other things that you hear as as mistakes that parents are making around potty training. And even as I say that I'm actually thinking instead of mistakes, what are some maybe we should switch that up to the positive. So what are some things that you see in your clients that they're doing well around pottying?
Jamie Glowacki 10:37
Well, it can I actually reframe it? Yeah, reframe it. I think not. There's, there's mistakes, there's just a lot of myths, okay, like, boys are harder to train than girls, total myth. Boys are almost easier to potty train than girls, because they can pee just about anywhere with ease. You know, you just have to, you know,
Speaker 1 10:56
their penis can go anywhere, right? And it doesn't pee all over them, right?
Jamie Glowacki 11:00
So that's, that's a big myth, and it took me a long time to wrap my head around that one. I could not figure it out. I used to, I used to buck up against it, because it just kind of felt like people were saying that boys were a little dumber than girls. And, you know, I know that girls socially and emotionally develop quicker than boys, but this is at two or three, that we're not talking about nine or 10. And then I realized I finally hit on it one day. You know, girls are we're social and we're social learners. So we're more apt to look at facial expressions, we're more apt to listen to praise or take criticism. And boys, the male mind is much more linear. So I always say, if you're struggling with a boy, and check it out, Casey, most of the time, the mom is in charge of potty training. Most of them, that's drastically changing at a rapid rate, but a lot of the times it's a female brain trying to potty train a male brain. So I often say, with little boys, if you're struggling, eliminate all chatter like direct commands in the order you want them, like, Go, pants, sit, pee up, pants, wash. Like, that's the most effective because, like boys, it's blah blah blah, blah, blah blah girls respond to, oh my goodness, you're such a big girl. I'm so excited. Are you proud of yourself? Like, girls really respond to that better in these big facial expressions, but boys are much more like, tell me what to do and I'll just do it. Right? Yeah. Another huge myth that I hear out there a lot is put the potty chair out so they can get used to it. And I'd say that's probably the number one mistake people make outside of wait till they're ready. But I know we're gonna get to that. So I always tell parents, you know, if you look around your house, the potty chair is the most innocuous piece of plastic in your home. You know, when you bought the extra saucer or the new fancy high chair or the new fancy stroller, you didn't sit it in the middle of your living room, letting them get used to it. You use it for what it was meant for. So the thing I don't like about this myth is that there's an underlying fantasy going on. And so I just try to be really realistic with parents. Is most kids aren't going to do this on their own. They're not going to up and say, oh, there's a miniature toilet. I think I'll take my diaper off and pee in it. And a lot of parents have that fantasy going on. So there's this hidden I'm going to put it out so they can get used to it. And maybe I don't actually have to do this potty training thing. The big problem is it loses its magic, right? It becomes a matchbox car storage and art supply storage, a hat, a stroller, a basketball net. It becomes everything except a container for fecal matter. And I always ask parents. I said, it's cool if you want to leave it out for them to get used to it, but then you should let you should let them play in the toilet too, right? Like play in the water, so they can get used to that. And then do that. I'm playing around. So I just say, put the potty. Chan if you've made that mistake, just put it away till you're ready to potty train, and then it becomes the tool for this particular task, right? Yeah.
Casey O'Roarty 14:03
So then the other myth, readiness. Tell us about readiness.
Jamie Glowacki 14:07
Okay, I love where this comes from, and I think especially right now in our culture, this is a huge place of coming from the heart of I want out of the Mommy Wars. I don't want to push my child. I'm not going to teach him Mandarin at three. I'm, you know, I'm not going to rush his childhood. And so I think it comes from a really loving place, but it's, it's mistaken, because this phrase actually has a history, and I'll get into that in one second. But I often ask people, I say, Okay, you're waiting till they're ready. What are you looking for? And parents just look at me blankly because they don't know what they're looking for. So they think that everything's going to exponentially build. So they think if they get a P, let's say right before bath, they think, Okay, well, that's great. Next month, I'll get, you know, three P's in a day or. Maybe once the child says, Oh, I can't, you know, I have to pay. And the parents said, Oh, this is great. This is going to build on its own. And it doesn't, it'll go away if you don't attend to it. So the phrase itself has a history. In 1946 Dr Spock was the very first doctor to, you know, he released his first book, and he was the very first doctor to say that children might feel pain if we abuse them, and they might they may grow into maladjusted adults with that pain. He was the very first medical professional to suggest that children need affection to thrive, and he was met with outrage by the medical team. So if you can think about that like child ring was kind of abusive in the prior to that, as well as potty training practices. So routinely, infants were strapped to potty chairs till they bruised all day. They were left in their excrement for hours as a, you know, teaching mechanism, they were given soap suppositories to poop on command. So it was really, yeah, there was really some abusive stuff. So Dr Spock comes along, and he's like the grandfather of attachment parenting.
And of course, over the 60s, 70s and 80s, that pendulum started to swing, and I believe it's at its peak now, that swing where, you know children being the center of our lives became children being the center of our attention, and so we became children LED. And I'm a big hippy dippy I homeschool. I'm all about interest led parenting, but you can't let your child run the house, right? And so this whole idea that your child is in charge of their developmental milestones is kind of a strange one, because we push these you know, we help children walk all the time. The minute they start, you know, balancing. We grab their little hands, we what we toddle with them between our knees. You know, if a child picks up a book, we don't leave a stack of books in the corner and say, well, they'll get to that when they're ready. We're an active participant in teaching them to read all the time. So the idea that, you know, there's this magic, this child's just gonna one day up and say, I'm ready, it's kind of it just doesn't happen. And more anecdotally, in my work, I see nightmares because parents wait and wait and wait, and now the kid has to enter kindergarten, and they were never, quote, unquote, ready. So I like to go by capability. So I say, do you think your child's capable of this? And my sort of magic window is between 20 and 30 months. It can completely be done before, and it can completely be done after. But I think that's the magic window between 20 and 30 months, because if you think about it, there's a developmental lull. So they've mastered, you know, they can eat, they can walk, they have mastered separation anxiety, so now they're kind of the next, I don't know, 12 months or so. They're going to hone those skills, yeah, right, you're going to learn how to run, they're going to learn how to climb, they're going to learn how to really use a fork. So there's this lull that happens, and so it's the perfect time for potty training, because the next developmental milestone is individuation, and that's when the child realizes they're separate from you. And once they realize they're separate from you, it is the age of free will and choice and large No, right, right? Right? Right. Three major. And so you get all this behavior. So it's not the learning. You know, obviously the older child is the more capable they are with language, manipulating their clothes, that part is generally easier. But now you've got a three major who literally holds all the power. They're never going to hold the power in their own body the way they do right now. So now you that's why it gets so much harder after three. Yeah, so that's why I say, you know, go for that developmental lull, because the behavior, I mean, plenty of people potty train past three, and they they have a fine time, but that when you have a nightmare, it ends up being a huge nightmare, because you got all these power struggles. And you can't have a power struggle with potty training, because you'll lose they have the power, right? And I
Casey O'Roarty 19:05
just want to point out to listeners, too, that you may have stories that fall on either side of the continuum, right, I mean, and I just want to acknowledge that as well. And so as you're listening, listen for the nuggets, and I'm hearing so many. Jamie, this is so great. I'm so glad we're talking about this, because you are educating me as a parent educator, because I feel these questions all the time. But listeners, listen for those nuggets that applies to you, right? So be listening for for connections that apply to you and what you're dealing with right now with your child. So I love the conversation around the myth of readiness, and really appreciate that window, because we like Windows, we like numbers, we like to be told like, this is when. But I really appreciating that that's a 10 month range, yeah, yeah, and that there's a lot of space there. Right? There's a lot of space there. And I'm guessing that if you're a parent that's listening and thinking like, Oh darn it, now I'm at three and a half, I'm struggling. Like a lot of the parents from my community that chimed in when I invited them to ask questions, have older threes and fours that are struggling, specifically around the pooping, yeah. And I heard you talk about I was watching one of your Facebook Lives, and I'm going to make sure listeners that all the links to Jamie are available in the show notes, but I was watching one of your Facebook Lives, and I can't remember if I have the terminology right, but you talk, Is it fear of release?
Jamie Glowacki 20:40
Yeah, yeah. So can I interrupt you for one second, though, because I want to go back to what, yeah, you were just talking about, how you to all the listeners. You know, take the nuggets that you need. It's so important to remember in potty training, you have to every child is different. You have to recognize that. So you might hear that your neighbor's kid took off her diaper, put on panties, and was potty trained in a matter of hours. Your child is different, and so you have to remember that I've never seen a milestone. We don't say, you know, oh, your child started walking, you know, a year and three days after being born. My child should start working a year and three days after they were born, and it should take exactly the same amount of time. So we but we do this with potty training, right, right? So I just want to, I just wanted to slip that in, because that seemed appropriate to us, like every kid's going to do it different. And for you, for any listeners who might be freaking out that you waited too long, don't freak out. It's just better to know what battle you're fighting. You're not, you're not gonna have to worry about the learning. You're just gonna have to deal with behavior which just looks different, yeah, so it's, it's, I just like to prepare parents for what you're you know, if you're gonna potty train at 16 months, it's gonna take longer because of the learning, but you're not gonna have any behavior because they're not manipulative yet, right?
Casey O'Roarty 21:59
Right? Versus the three, almost four year old who's feeling, you know, noticing how micromanaged they might be and and holding the pee and holding the poop is a great place to exert some power and autonomy in a life that might not feel like there's a lot of choice. Absolutely control,
Jamie Glowacki 22:17
control, control. We always try to give the toddler as much control as possible, because that's what
Casey O'Roarty 22:22
they want. Yeah, so,
Jamie Glowacki 22:24
but let's get back to fear of the release. Yes, thank
Unknown Speaker 22:26
you. I was getting fear of the release. I
Jamie Glowacki 22:29
tend to talk about more in P. So P will happen. It's very common, especially in the first week of potty training. You will the child will willingly sit, go to the potty. No problem, sit and sit and sit and sit and sit. Nothing happens. Get up, pee on the floor. So there's just an oddness. There's like a performance anxiety that happens. And that's where mostly I talk about fear of release, okay? And those that you go back to your unit, and I have YouTube videos on this, I have podcasts, I have blog posts, so there's plenty of resources, but you go back to old school tricks, you know, running water, you know, sit and read a couple of books. Horse lips doing horse lips can help that loosens. They use that in labor to help loosen the cervix, sphincter muscles, tickling, laughing, pretending to blow bubbles and and also, if you're so inclined, if your trouble, if your child's really having trouble, you can put their hands or feet in some warm, warm water, and that usually creates a the
Casey O'Roarty 23:27
old slumber party trick. Yeah, exactly.
Jamie Glowacki 23:33
I never thought of that, but yeah. Now with poop, poop is undeniably the most the biggest problem, it's the longest chapter of my book. I have a series of YouTube videos to sort of assess where you are in trouble of poop. The number one thing is that I see that's most common is there is going to be performance anxiety the first couple of days. So you know, if your kid could have been a two or three time a day pooper, you go to potty train, and suddenly there's no poop. And what happens is parents start to freak out, and they start to escalate. Their anxiety escalates. They start getting high pitched. Everything about them screams anxiety. And toddlers just latch onto our energy like piranhas. So if you're anxious, your child's gonna be anxious, and they're gonna be like, Well, mom, mom's worried about this? No way. The other thing is, think about how your child, most kids poop like squatting, or they're playing, and they just kind of squat, and then we put them on a 90 degree angle potty chair. So a lot of times the anorectic angle, which is sort of like your poop chute will actually get kinked and so the poop can't release. So make sure your potty chair is a low one. I suggest the Baby Bjorn, and not a 90 degree angle. So you want your child's knees up by their chest as much as possible. Even on a little potty chair, you could put books under their under their feet to get their knee. Stuff. So that straightens out. If you've ever seen any of the Squatty Potty videos, yeah, yeah, the Unicorn Ice Cream one. Have you seen that one?
Unknown Speaker 25:08
The Unicorn
Jamie Glowacki 25:10
Ice Cream. Like, as soon as we're done, Google squatty potty, Unicorn Ice Cream, it's like the inside of my head, that's, that's what the Squatty Potty is all about. So whatever you can do. And another trick for that is, if you put the child on the toilet, put them on backwards so that they number one their hands, they can, they can, actually, they read a book on the back of the toilet seat. They have something to do and hold on to. But they can also rotate their pelvic their hips and so,
Casey O'Roarty 25:40
so do you mean like their feet are on the seat and they're squatted
Jamie Glowacki 25:44
down? No, no, no. I'm kind of not talking about a squat anymore. I'm talking about another trick. Okay, okay, put it seating them on the toilet. You know, we sit on the toilet, yes, yes, with our back to the back, yep. Turn them around. Okay, so that hands are on the back of the toilet, okay, but they're bums on the seat. Got it, and then they can wiggle their hips around and find a good angle.
Casey O'Roarty 26:05
Okay, got it. Got it. Got it. As we're talking, I'm like my kids. I know I'm totally picturing it. My kids did not. We didn't. They liked the cushiony like, insert seat, yep, and that's what we that's what we use. I had little squatty potties? Well, they weren't technically squatty potties, but we had little potties because, you know, they were so fun to buy, yeah, but the kids, my son, wouldn't even sit on the squishy insert like he would perch, yeah, he would perch on the edge of the big toilet. And we just had, and actually, it totally he had to lean forward the balance. So it really simulated that, that squat that you're talking about. So what about, and I'm guessing, I'm so excited to ask you this, what about rewards and well, I even hate to say, and I know what you're gonna say here, but what about rewards and consequences?
Jamie Glowacki 26:57
Okay, rewards and consequences. So I'm against rewards. I mean, rewards are just a popular way to potty train. More than consequences. I'll get to consequences in a second. Okay, I'm against it, because I just think this is I think the bigger the deal you make about this, the bigger deal it becomes. So I feel like it's really young. Two or three is really young to bribe. So I just don't, I mean, there's going to be plenty of bribery later in their lives that I just don't think you need to start it now. This is a daily, everyday, socialized, human task, like just it doesn't have to be rewarded. You don't reward your child for learning to walk. You don't reward them with an Eminem, hey, you slept eight hours here. Have an Eminem. We don't work like that, so I don't know why we do it here. That being said, if you're having super difficulty or you can't quite figure out if you're dealing with behavior or you're dealing with learning. So oftentimes, a kid is struggling and you don't know well, did they learn it or do Are they just not capable of doing it for some reason? Then I say, Well, let's try a reward, because if they can do it for a reward, then they're yanking your chain. Okay, so, you know, in that sense, generally speaking, though I've had kids, the thing is, Casey, they're just, they're not dumb. So I had a kid meter out 40 nugget poops because he got 2m M's for a poop.
Unknown Speaker 28:21
Oh my gosh. It
Casey O'Roarty 28:25
sends a message of like, you can't do this without being rewarded for it, right? I
Jamie Glowacki 28:32
mean, that's what we do, right? So, I mean, unless you're going to be the kind of parent who gives 20 bucks for an A five bucks for setting the table, have at it, you know? I mean, if, and I always say, You know what? If it works for you, go for it. I'm not here to judge. I don't like to use it because I see the disasters. Nobody brags on Facebook about the disasters. Nobody says, Oh, hey, I tried rewards. And guess what? We're in family therapy, right? You know, so and I see them, though. So they exist. And I have people who have bought trips to Disney, redone a bedroom, new kitchen, set a bike, a candy jar on the back of the toilet, and the kids still not going so back, it can backfire in the worst way and literally end up in family therapy because now you're struggling over a reward instead of a regular, normal behavior. Yeah, and
Casey O'Roarty 29:19
people that have listened to me a lot. Know that this comes up with so far beyond potty training, I think anytime we attach a reward to something, it's it's a short term Yes, it's a short term fix, and ultimately, we're looking at the long term so and
Jamie Glowacki 29:34
as far as consequences, I have a whole behavior chapter in my book, because there's a lot about behavior. But as far as consequences, as a parent, you have to ascertain, you know, the kid doesn't get to rule this process. It is their process, but you're 75% of it. You're you're leading it. So if you know, if your kid is like not listening to you and sits there and pees on your kitchen floor looking at you, that's behavior, and you have to. Deal with that the same way you would deal with any other misbehavior. And I always say I don't feel comfortable giving anybody measures of discipline, but in your house, you know you have to what would you do if your kid looked you in the eye and spilled his milk right out on the floor? So what would you do in that scenario? Do that if your child's misbehaving while potty training? Right? So there is misbehavior, and however you attend to that, yeah, right. I appreciate don't recommend timeouts potty training, because you'll get a revenge pee wherever the timeout is. Well,
Casey O'Roarty 30:30
and I'm not, I don't promote the timeouts either. And I think that, you know, it's probably a relationship situation that's happening. And so starting there is a good place also, like, let them clean up their messes. What a great opportunity for them to practice getting out a sponge or getting out the mop and cleaning up and then, you know, having a conversation about, you know, tell me about what's going on for you. And I think, too, this is a great place for parents to look at themselves, right and notice what it is that they've been inviting into the relationship and start there. And if there's any needs to make amends around your own behavior, do it and move forward from that place.
Speaker 2 31:11
Yes, absolutely, yeah. So, um, okay,
Casey O'Roarty 31:16
so thank you for all of this great information. And I'm just thinking about all my people. So there was a lot of people who talk about how frustrating it can be when, oh my gosh, we had a whole weekend and I thought we were there, or a whole week, or even one person wrote in and said, for two months, my child was doing so well, and then they just stopped doing well. And we're dealing with a lot of accidents. It sounds like there's kind of both and right, that yes, on the potty, but still having accidents. Or one person wrote in about great out in the world, horrible at home, or great at home, horrible out in the world. Talk a little bit about, you know, you said at the beginning of the conversation that this is a process. So help, help the listeners land that concept of this being a process,
Jamie Glowacki 32:07
it is a process. You're asking a couple of things. So there are regressions. So if your child did well on the weekend and
then had accidents. You're not done. That's still process. Like, you're gonna have a couple of great days and a couple of bad days. You know, potty training, I always say potty training is done when you have five consecutive thoughts that don't involve pee or poop. So there's like, no dead end, you know what? I mean? There's no absolute finish line, because there's going to be new situations. There's going to be new circumstances. So number one, if you know, but if you go, like two months and all of a sudden, there's a backslide. So number one, you definitely want to look for, has anything changed? Anything? Anything at all? And it can be minor. Remember, the toddlers. World is small. So these it can be small. So obviously, big, big things are a new baby, a divorce, financial strain, things like that are upsetting in the house. Other things simply having a different daycare worker or preschool teacher switch hours that can, that can switch a child. You, I tell the story in the book that my son there was you started going to a new preschool when he was passionate, and they did, what do you call it? Dixie cups for snack time? So he just got a Dixie cup of water at snack time. He didn't know. He could ask for more. So he only think that. So he would come home and drink, like, I don't know, 32 ounces of water, and then, like, he had a good accident at night. And I was like, What the heck is going on? And and so I went to daycare, and I was, Oh, I just observed the routine. And I was like, Dude, you need more water during the day, you know? And he was, he was like, I didn't I finished mine. I was like, don't ask for more. So it can be something as minor as that. So I would look for those things. I there's always what I call the honeymoon is over. So what happens is, they've got it, you know, they've got it, then you they've got it, and then everybody stops asking, and it just, it takes a backseat, and they forget. So I only say, you know, it's like, when you quit smoking, it's great for, like, the first chance, because everybody's like, doing, how you doing? You're a non smoker. Nobody cares anymore, right? So, like, nobody's asking. So you have to go back to in my book, I've arranged my book and called blocks of Learn and for just this reason. So they're real quantifiable steps. So you know, if one, you know if they start having accidents, you go back to block one and run through the blocks again just to make sure something didn't trip up. And it could be as well Casey as all of a sudden they had sweatpants, and now you have jeans with a snap, and you don't know how to get a snap off fast enough. Do you know it could be clothing things to be there just, you know? And some kids will be articulate, no, I'm done with body training. I don't want to do, you know, you want to work that out with the child. Yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 34:55
yeah. I love that. I love that. And I love that idea. Uh, what you just shared about, like, just go back to those, those, those building blocks that you put in place in the beginning and start again. And it doesn't. It's not, you know, it's not a kid getting into mischief. One thing that came up, I know one of my listeners spoke about an older child that's having a hard time, and they have a one year old sibling, and mom is pregnant with number three. And as I read that, I just thought, oh my gosh, this is a child who, my guess, without being knowing the family or being involved in the family, is probably a child who feels really displaced, not because anybody is a bad parent, but simply because they have a three and a half year old lens to see their world out of. And man, their world has changed and is changing. And then they're making meaning from that. And it's like, well, to be involved in this family, I got to be like the baby who wears a diaper,
Jamie Glowacki 35:57
absolutely and I have a really good chick from that for that, I call it, I call it baby love. And I had a client do this with me in social work. And then my son subsequently called it mama love, which is anytime the child needs to feel that baby, you can give them baby love. And so you kind of drop everything and snuggle them and do the whole like, oh my, you know, baby, pretend to, like, suck their fingers, you know what I mean. And it lasts like 30 seconds. They get their full, their fill, and then they move on. Yeah, so it's a really valuable trick, especially when you have new babies in the mix.
Speaker 1 36:30
I love that baby, love baby, love so okay, but I wanted to get back you
Jamie Glowacki 36:38
had asked about, oh, great, at school, struggles at home, or vice versa? Yeah. Okay, so if your child is doing great at school and not at home, you have to examine what's going on. So you might be overbearing over prompting. You also have to remember, and I'm sure you know this case, you know the mark of a good parent is when your child's angelic with other people and craptastic for you. Yeah, so, and that means you're doing a really good job, because they can act out against you, and that's what they're supposed to do, because you're going to love them unconditionally, so they're going to save all their crappy behavior for you. So that might take some shoring up in either your boundaries or figuring out relationship. Now, if they do great at home and they do crappy outside, that's probably just a new setting. And you have to, especially in daycare and preschool settings, you have to, you have to kind of maybe even hang out for a day and see what happens, because there's all kinds of nonsense that can happen at daycare. They can be hovering over the child, pressuring them too much. Potty situation can be too far removed. You know, I had one daycare that the potty was down the hall in a locked room. I mean, you can't expect the newly potty trained to get there, right, right? So definitely figure out that situation that
Casey O'Roarty 37:53
makes sense. So I have one last little question around this, and that is the nighttime pull ups?
Jamie Glowacki 38:02
Yeah, that's like, not a little question.
Casey O'Roarty 38:06
Well, I know, like for me I mentioned at the beginning, you know, my son was good to go at 18 months. But I guess that's not entirely true, because he he would wear a pull up at night because he slept so well. This is my story, right? He slept so hard he didn't know when he had to pee and then when we were co sleepers. And then he moved to his own room, and he wanted to come snuggle us. And we dropped the pull up, and it was perfect, because he'd come in to want it, which was fine with us. It worked for our family to come and sleep in our bed. And he, I would say you can come in our bed as soon as you use the bathroom. And so he'd go use the bathroom, and he'd come and and so it was kind of a natural, I guess, weaning off the night diaper. And that was another question that came up a lot, is it, you know, how long? Is too long? But the bad, you know? I mean, there's it, you're right. It's not a little question.
Jamie Glowacki 39:00
Well, let me, let me try to give you some broad strokes, and then I'll definitely have a blog post called, is sleep training really necessary? Perfect, and it really lays all this out. So it really depends when you're starting potty training. So back in the day, you know, when I was, I'm 48 when I was potty chained. Parents ditched the diapers all at once. They woke the child one time when they went to bed, which really was like 10 or 1030 because there was no Netflix or cable, so like or Facebook, so everybody was tired, you know, they keep the child once, and then the child slept through. There was a collective consciousness that this could be done. We have created a different collective consciousness, which is that this is impossible. So I it can't be done all at once, you know, just get rid of the diaper, but that's really overwhelming. So in my book, I separated out. There's day training and night training, and I always say it's better to do it all at once, even though it's a more hellacious first week. But whatever my if you're potty training under three, you have a little bit of wiggle room. So a lot of my clients, most people, potty train around 24 months. And I always say, you want to leave a little window for the child to stay dry on their own, so you can absolutely keep the diaper on at first and see if they start staying dry. Because remember, this kid has no you know, the minute you start potty training, this is their first notion of holding and consolidating that pee we get to the appropriate spot. So 1214, hours of sleep, that's a really long time to go. So then, you know, then if they get to right around 33 to 36 months, and in that blog post, I give you a couple of things you can do to kind of help this process along, to see if they'll stay dry on their own. But by 36 months, I say you have to really attend to it, because if your child's still soaking their diaper through, you're not making any headway, and they're not going to start staying dry on their own. The bladder is being formed between three and four years, if it is without any holding and consolidating. So think of it as a muscle, and that muscle atrophies and the bladder walls thicken, so then you'll have a much higher percentage of having a long term bedwetter. So I say you gotta nail it like around three. You have to start attending to it. And you know, I regularly work with pediatricians who have six and seven year olds in nighttime diapers. So this is one of those that you kind of can't go, oh, wait till they're ready, right? Really, you have to attend to it. But I would definitely go. I would check out that blog post because that has that has that this all laid out because it's very confusing when you try to awesome. I'm going to
Casey O'Roarty 41:35
make sure that link is in the show notes. Listener,
Unknown Speaker 41:37
thank you so much. I did not know anything about
Casey O'Roarty 41:39
bladder development. Like,
Jamie Glowacki 41:41
yeah, wow. Well, who does? No,
Speaker 3 41:43
I mean, you do. Thank you so much for that
Jamie Glowacki 41:48
pediatric Journal of Urology. Like by the abstracts and hire a doctor to get you through the abstract. I don't speak this language, but
Casey O'Roarty 41:57
that's I mean, it makes you know, knowing that it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. So
Jamie, I'm so glad to finally have you on and to hear your wisdom around all of this. I have learned so much good. Yeah, and I always end with the question, this question, and so I'd love to ask you, what does joyful courage mean to you in the context of what you do with parents?
Jamie Glowacki 42:26
You know Casey, I just want to let all your listeners know that you let me know you were going to ask this question, and this was, like, stymied. I'm so glad you told me before about it, because I was like, I love it so joyful courage, I think, to me, is it's such a reminder we have to be so courageous. As parents, we have to be so brave, and we have to constantly be evaluating ourselves. And so the joyful just reminds me to keep it light. You know that this is all just so great, and even in our worst, you know, even in our worst potty training nightmare. It's still so great, yeah, so it to me, it's just keep it light. Keep our keep our courage light.
Casey O'Roarty 43:07
I like that. I like that for sure. So where can listeners find you and follow your work and please share the title of your book you mentioned on the Today Show. I saw your link to it. I think you posted something about it, but that was exciting. Every parent, educators dream, right?
Jamie Glowacki 43:29
Somebody gave me a heads up. They were like, Christina Richie just gave your book a shout out on Live with Kelly, and it wasn't aired yet in my town. So I put it I went to a friend's house. I don't have network TV, and I went to my friend's house, and I videotaped it
Casey O'Roarty 43:42
with myself. That's awesome, yeah. So
Jamie Glowacki 43:45
it's called oh crap potty training, named for the look on parents faces, not the crap itself. And jamie.com has all my blog posts, all the YouTube channels, all the podcasts. It's available right on the website. We do have, I have a slew of consultants that are trained by me personally that you can book if you are really struggling. We have the Facebook page, and I do live zoom meetings. So there's a live Zoom meeting happening, actually, this Saturday at 10, which is, I take 10 people, and we do a video conference, and I work one on one with you, and that's available on the website. Yeah, it's all there.
Casey O'Roarty 44:21
Okay, great. Well, I
Speaker 1 44:22
will send listeners there. Thank you so much for coming on to talk to me. Yeah,
Jamie Glowacki 44:26
you're welcome. Thanks for humoring on my long poop answers.
Casey O'Roarty 44:39
All right, all right, if you're like me, then there were a few new little tidbits of information that you took away from that conversation. Thank you again to Jamie for spending time with me. I wish that I would have had her back in the day when I was potty training, because I just feel like she's. Really sound voice, right? Like she's just not frantic, and I feel like it's so easy to become overwhelmed by what can look like the challenge of potty training. And Jamie's just such a great supporter of all parents. So yay, yay. Let me know what your takeaways are, you can share on the joyful courage page, or the live in love with joyful courage group. You can find joyful courage on Instagram as well as Twitter, or you can just send me a direct email at Casey at joyful courage.com I love, love, love hearing from my listeners. So please feel free to reach out with feedback, with thoughts, gratitude, wonders, whatever I love to hear from you. Speaking of wonders, I'm wondering, if you all know that I have started to show up regularly on Facebook, live on the joyful courage Facebook page. I am I'm showing up each and every Tuesday, 10am Pacific, Standard Time, and what I'm doing is I'm going to make my way through the positive discipline tool card deck. Positive Discipline tool cards are like a deck of cards, and each card has a different PD tool on it. So I'm going to do little, short videos every week that just dig a little bit deeper into each of those tools. Super excited to connect with you in a whole new way regularly. Like, that's the key I know. I say like, I'm going to do Facebook Live, and then I never show up. So yes, Tuesdays, 10pm I'm sorry. 10am Pacific Standard Time, I will be there, and hope that you will join me. Also super excited, because the end of this week, the end of this week on Saturday, joyful courage registration opens. I'm sorry, the living joyful courage membership program, registration opens. I'm opening the doors for new members to join in on the magic of the membership program. Could that be you? I hope so you can be a member for as little as $39 a month, $39 a month, and every month you get an A Webinar. You get access to weekly coaching calls. You get access to a discussion forum full of like minded parents who are there to support and celebrate each other. You get access to weekly emails around content and access to me. So consider that. Think about that $39 a month, that is a heck of a deal for the amount of support that you get in that community. So check it out. You can go to joyful courage.com/living, JC. Joyful courage.com/living-jc, and there you can join the the information list, and I'll be making sure to let you know, hey, now's the time to sign up so that you can get in on that action. All right, also doing a giveaway this month for every time you share one of the podcasts and tag me Casey overti or joyful courage, your name will be put into a pot, into a drawing, and I am drawing for a free membership. Yeah, so free membership could be yours. Could be yours. So Share, share, share. You can enter as many times as you want to win, you just gotta share the podcast. And yes, that is a win win for me, because I am looking to impact 1 million kids this year, and I cannot do it without you. So do your part and share the work. Give back. That'd be amazing. I would so appreciate it. And finally, finally, I'm really excited this week. This week, I'm going to do some extra little tidbits on the podcast. Actually tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, I'm going to be speaking into questions from the community about the zero to five crowd. So this conversation with Jamie was intentionally placed on this particular Tuesday as we head into a deeper dive into the experience of raising a child under the age of five. So I'm really excited that's going to be available for people who are subscribed to the podcast. You have to be subscribed to the podcast to access those shows, and all you got to do to subscribe is head on over to iTunes, head on over to Google Play, search for the joyful courage parenting podcast, and click subscribe if you're already getting it, if you are already getting the show automatically each week, then you're a subscriber, and you will get the shows for the zero to five training. All right, yay. I'm excited. I'm excited to offer that and be in controversy. To you. Humongous love to each and every one of you, so grateful for this community and the support and the sharing that you do of the joyful courage work really, really deep gratitude for all of you. Have a beautiful day. You are the perfect parents for your kids, and I'll see you next week.