Eps 345: Tough Conversations about Elections with Dr. Anjali Ferguson

What does joyful courage mean to you 

Joyful courage, to me, is the bravery to live life authentically, positively, and joyfully while looking for those little moments of happiness that do exist, even in the chaos of the world we live in and being presently focused on that.

 

Resources

Dr. Ferguson’s Website 

Dr. Ferguson’s Instagram

Parenting Culture’s Website

Parenting Culture’s Instagram 

Parenting Culture: Talking About Abortion PDF 

Five-Day Relationship Reset

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:04
Music. Hello, hello, my friends.

Welcome back to joyful courage, a conscious parenting podcast where we tease apart the challenges and nuances of parenting through the adolescent years. I am your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and adolescent lead at sproutable, where we celebrate not only the growth of children, but also the journey and evolution that we all get to go through as parents. This is a place where we keep it real, real stories, real parenting. The teen years are real messy, and there aren't many right answers, but the more we trust ourselves and trust our teens, the better the outcomes can be. The Parenting we talk about over here is relationship centered. You won't find a lot of talk about punishment, consequences or rewards. What you will hear is a lot of encouragement about connection, curiosity and life skill development. Our teens are on their own journey, and while we get to walk next to them for a bit, we don't get to walk for them. Their work is to learn from the tension of their life. Our work is to support them and love them along the way. I'm so glad you're here. Enjoy the show.

Hi listeners. I am so excited that you're tuning in. Yet again, I have an amazing guest to introduce you to. Her name is Dr Anjali Ferguson. Dr Ferguson is a clinical psychologist and mother. She specializes in trauma informed care, early childhood mental health and parenting. Dr Ferguson is a cis gender, South Asian, second generation immigrant in a biracial and multi faith relationship, and the mother of a blendian, which is black and Indian child, these intersectionalities inform both her personal and professional endeavors, thus her research and clinical interests include promotion of culturally competent models of care with efforts to increase community engagement of diverse populations in order to demystify Mental Health. Dr Ferguson has developed an expertise in racial trauma and is committed to social justice, equity in psychological spaces through psycho education on the impacts of systematic racism, racial trauma for bipoc communities. Dr Ferguson earned her bachelor's degree in psychology from Pennsylvania State University. She obtained her master's in clinical psychology from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and completed her doctorate in medical clinical psychology at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. She's currently the staff psychologist for a local hospital system, and she serves as the psychology faculty for the Virginia leadership education and Neurodevelopmental Disabilities Program. That's a lot of words. There's a lot of words in your bio. She is also the founder of parenting culture, a research informed resource for families focused on creating an inclusive space for conversations around parenting. Hi, welcome to the podcast. Hi,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 3:29
thank you so much for having me. I am so so thrilled to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 3:34
I'm so glad to have you talk a little bit more about your story and what brought you into doing what you do,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 3:41
absolutely so, as Casey just mentioned, one of my more recent endeavors was creating the called parenting culture, where our mission and our goal is to create resources for families and children that really support inclusive dialog around parenting, and when we say inclusive, we're talking about culture from a ton of intersectionalities, knowing that culture means so many different things, like it includes race, it includes immigration, includes gender, includes even political stances on things. So we want to create again, resources that make this parenting journey a little easier for folks and resources that aren't otherwise as easily accessible mainstream. I, you know, have done a lot of training and work in the parenting world, and have provided interventions and assessments and psychological settings, and I was always really struck by the lack of conversation and application of understanding cultural nuances, and how much folks had access to those types of conversations, really. And then when I became a parent myself in 2019 I was looking for resources, really. In 2020 when we were going through the pandemic, and how. Having this modern day civil rights movement in front of us and looking for resources myself and how to raise a more conscious child, I just started putting science together and building a team, and that's kind of where we are now.

Casey O'Roarty 5:14
I love that, and you and I today, we're gonna dig into some tricky territory, and tricky. I just mean, I don't know, to me tricky, just as like, there might be some feathers that get fluffed up, and that's okay. I want to invite all of you to listen in, as if you're eavesdropping on two people that are passionate about their work, puzzling out the challenge of right now, of today's context. So notice where you get uncomfortable. Listener and stick with us. Discomfort is always telling us that we can listen a bit deeper. And you know, the tricky territory is going to be, we're going to talk some politics. And you know, as this show comes out, we're coming out with this episode at the height of the midterm election season. And actually, full transparency, we're recording this a little bit early in the season, and so I can only imagine what's going on. I can't even imagine, actually, what's happening, you know, as this comes out. But this has been a year of, well, a few years right of some crazy political conversations this year in particular, big moves by the Supreme Court around so many issues. In June, the decision was made to overturn Roe v Wade. We're going to go there, and I know I want to acknowledge that. I'm sure, I'm assuming, that my audience is mixed when it comes to where they land on. Feelings about abortion, pro choice, pro life. I am here to be transparent, and I think I've already said on my platform I am very much pro choice, meaning I think it's up to mothers to decide what's best for them and their family, women to decide what's best for them and their family. And I see it is a very emotional choice, and not one that anyone really wants to be finding ourselves having to make. So that being said, that being said, there's some interesting conversations happening around the dinner table on this topic, and there are opinions in my family that, you know, there's some details that differ from my own opinion, even though I feel like as a family, we consider ourselves pro choice. So I want to talk to you today about how to be in the conversation with our tweens and teens, starting with abortion as well as other social political views that might show up at the dinner table. Where do we start?

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 7:38
That's a great question. I mean, the short and quick answer is, you just start. You have to have the conversation. And there's a lot of presumption as adults that children don't understand what's going on in the world around them, or maybe they're not ready to have these large conversations. But the reality is that they are aware, and it's not a matter of if they're going to ask questions about these larger issues, the matter of when and if you can recognize that eventually there's going to be a question for you. And we're talking about abortion, we're talking about pro choice and reproductive issues right now, but eventually, your child will come to you at some point in development and even just say, what is abortion? And where do you stand, mom or dad on those issues? And here's what I think about it, here's what I've learned about it, and they're going to want dialog from you. So the sooner you can prepare for that and expect that the better, and really with that comes just like an openness to discussion and laying a foundation for every type of discussion, because this can go in so many different ways, like you said, Casey, like that, your kiddos could have differences in opinion from what you believe in and how you were raised, or they Could firmly agree with you too, and you need to be ready for both of those options.

Casey O'Roarty 9:14
So my audience is mostly parents of tweens and teens, and some of my parents have younger kids as well. So they're listening in for their older kids, and they have younger kids, you know, do we wait for them to ask, regardless of if they're, you know, younger or older? Or is this something where, I mean, because it's in the water that we drink right like it's so prevalent the conversations in society right now around this, you know, is it a good idea to just kind of wait, or do you think, no, let's just cut this off and open up conversation, even if our kids aren't asking about it. What do you think? I

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 9:51
think this is a really developmentally rooted question, right? So I would say the answer depends on the age of the child. But one of the things we have to reckon. Is we are living in an increasingly technologically advanced world, which means that our kiddos are having access to things just like much sooner in development than I ever had access to news and information, even when I was growing up. And they are getting information somewhere, somehow, and even if they're not getting it through the internet like, let's say they're younger kids. They are still feeling the feelings that we feel as adults, and they are going to then develop their own thoughts and ideas just based off of the conversations they're hearing you have with your friends or your colleagues or your partners. Right? Kids are still very, very observant. So I always kind of err on the side of, again, making sure, even in from a mental health standpoint, knowing that your kiddos have access to open dialog with you is the number one thing that'll be protective in terms of mental health in the long run, because it really solidifies this relational connection parent to child, right? Yeah, and that open discussion should be non judgmental in a lot of ways, but checking in is always a good idea. And for little kids, you can do a little bit more of kind of defining what things are like. Hey, has anybody been talking about anything in the news that you've heard of a little kid is probably going to come to you and just say, what is abortion, Mommy? I've been hearing this word. What does that mean? And that's a great opening for you to have a conversation with them. Older kids may not always come to you. So you can ask more open ended conversations. Of, hey, I know there's a lot been going on in the news. What have you been hearing?

Casey O'Roarty 11:42
Yeah, well, and I love I just took a couple little notes. I think that that invitation to have these conversations from a place of non judgment. You know, it's one of those things where it's like, I know this is so important, even in my own practice with my 16 and 19 year old, like there's no lead up. Like, hey, I'm going to approach you in a little bit and share my opinion on what's happening in the world. So get yourself ready. No, that's not what happens. Usually it's just like, ah, can you believe XYZ? And there's no space to prepare. And actually, I'm going to contradict myself and say it can feel like there's no space to prepare, but really, there's an opportunity there. I know for me, my practice is when I'm willing to do the practice, it is taking a deep breath in, and like feeling that breath go all the way down to my feet, where I can feel the ground beneath me exhale, drop my shoulders, and usually my go to if I have no idea how to respond is, Tell me more. Tell me more about that. And that's been helpful to me. What are some other communication tips? And I'm going to get into this too, my own experience around the emotion around some of these topics for both parent and child, you know? I mean, these are emotional conversations, and how do we communicate when emotion is so present in the room?

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 13:12
Yeah. I mean, that's one of the hardest parts of parenting, right? I mean parenting itself. I feel like the biggest skill you learn is to manage your own emotions in a given interaction like that is parenting. If you can do that, then in interactions and conversations and discipline, and, you know, across the lifespan, will just be easier, but that is the number one goal. That's like the golden rule and strategy, the like, secret tip of parenting is it's not the kid we need to control and manage, it's actually ourselves and our emotion in a given interaction. And if we can learn to do that, then parenting becomes a little easier, because it's also a recognition that our kids are individuals, so they're going to develop their own ideas, their own thoughts, their own feelings, which many times in life is going to be different from ours, and that's just an expectation we have to start to learn. But it's a tough expectation, because as parents, we have this huge emotional connection to what our expectations are for our children, and that's with what we want them to be, how safe and protected we want them to be growing up, how mentally and physically healthy. You know, all of those things come into play. And when we feel like we're in less control of the choices that they're making, it's bound to stir up emotions in ourselves. And I even think back to. I mean, my thoughts on abortion even have evolved over my lifespan with things I've learned and what I've been exposed to, right? And it's fluid, and it's through living and through learning and through sharing of experiences that I am where I am. And we have to recognize that our team. Teens are going through the same thing, like adolescence is an identity development period in general, and they're trying to figure out who they are in this world, and they're trying to learn what that means in terms of things like political ideologies. And they might think they know pretty firmly what they want right now, but it also might change next month based off of some experiences they have, and that's okay, and then it might change back, and then it might change again a couple years down the road. And that can also get really frustrating for us as parents, because we do we've have more lived experiences in a lot of ways, and we just want to be like, just get there. Just

Casey O'Roarty 15:37
get there. And we forget. It's so easy to forget, even if you've had enough time in adolescence, it's so easy to forget that it's like, oh yeah, this is potentially a very temporary belief that they're trying on. And I don't need to, you know, play out this scenario where we're not going to be able to have a relationship as adults because we're on opposite ends of the spectrum. And I also love talking about non judgment and really working towards that. That's the compass, right? That's the goal. Because if we can show up to these emotional conversations and checking our emotion like, if it's, you know, I could do this more often, recognizing, like, I'm realizing I'm this is something I'm really emotionally attached to, so I gotta take a minute so that I can really be present with what you're sharing with me and not get critical or judgmental. I've actually definitely said that to my kids, like I really want to be critical right now, so that's a key that I need to come back. Yeah. So there's that piece, but also, I think there's something really special around inaction, creating the action that fuels an environment like, I mean, you use the word openness, that fuels an environment where, not only can we have these conversations, where it's kind of more meta and what's happening in the world, but we're also showing, Hey, I'm a safe person. If this idea, if this topic, becomes even more personal, right, right, you can come to me. I am going to listen and be there for you. So I really appreciate it.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 17:13
And along those lines, too, you know, I often times when I myself am in a situation where I don't know what to say, or I'm not ready to say something, one of the easiest ways to help somebody feel heard and validated, which is a lot of times, what our kids are looking for in their disclosures with us is just reflecting back what they're saying, which means you don't have to have an opinion in it. But just you know, your kiddo comes to you and they're like, Ah, this is so aggravating and frustrating. And you're like, oh, what's aggravating and frustrating? I'd love to hear more about that. And they tell you what's going on. And they, you know, I read this article and they said this, that, and the other, Oh, wow. The article said this, that and the other, huh? Okay. And I'm hearing that you're really frustrated, yeah, this is, you know, just even that, in that 32nd interaction I just had with myself, I didn't once report back like my feelings about what they said or my thoughts on what they said. I'm just reflecting back what they're coming to me with. And that also gives you time, in some ways, to kind of figure out how you do want to respond and to your point, too Casey. I mean, the things that do make us really aggravated or really emotional, it's okay for us to take breaks in those moments too. It's probably a better solution to kind of say I'm feeling myself getting really frustrated or, like, name that emotion you're feeling. I'm feeling myself getting really amped up here. And you know what? I think I'm just going to take five and we'll come back to this in a minute or two, and it's okay to, like, physically get up, walk into another room, get a glass of water, whatever you need to do to change the environment around you. It helps clear your head, and then you can kind of decompress and come back at a less activated stage for yourself, too.

Casey O'Roarty 19:00
And it's so interesting because as I'm listening to you and we're talking about this, I have a question that I was going to save for a little while, but I'm going to circle into it right now, because I'm realizing what powerful modeling it is to be able to say I need a minute. So as a young person coming home from college having taken my first women's studies class psychology of women. I read the second shift by Arlie Hochschild and the beauty myth by Naomi Wolf, and like all of these women focused, conversations were being had in my classes that I had never been exposed to any of it. I come from a pretty conservative household, and they're like, social issues were not really, yeah, they just weren't brought to the table. And it was the 80s, so I didn't have, like, easy access to what was going on in the world outside of my little bubble. So these books and this class just like, opened my eyes to this whole. Part of history that had never been presented to me real time, challenges for women that I just was unaware of. I got home, I'm fired up. I'm sharing with my dad, who I just idolized, my dad, and he I can pick. We were out to lunch on the patio of this restaurant, and he totally just rolled his eyes and shot me down, and he didn't listen. In my memory of it, he was much more concerned with, like arguing, the counter argument to everything I was bringing up. And I was emotional, like I could feel my body tingling. And since then, you know, we have really different political views my father and I and we cannot. I mean, he tries to engage me, and I cannot engage with him, because I get so it's emotional tied up both in my beliefs of just like basic human rights and as well as like my relationship with him, and that whole underlying like, see me, validate me, you know, and it's such a mess. And I'm realizing, as I'm talking to you right now, like, oh, that's actually a place where I'm a grown ass woman. I could say, like, you know what, Dad, this is making me feel really emotional. I'm going to take care of myself, and then we can come back to this conversation. Like, there's so many places where that tool that recognizing where we're at can be useful. And not only that, like, I am super aware that now, as a mom with, you know, my own two teenagers who have their own opinions about things, like, I also don't want to create that dynamic. And here's the really special thing, Dr Ferguson, is that dynamic lives inside of me. So when my son specifically comes to me and he's like, I'm listening to blah blah blah on Tiktok, and I'm like, Why the hell would you listen to that guy? You know, like, all of a sudden I'm having an out of body experience, recognizing that I am my father in this scenario, right? The details are different, and so I don't want to create a dynamic where my son feels dismissed, where he doesn't feel validated, and I'm like noticing the emotion around some of the opinions that he is trying on. I mean, what are your thoughts on all of this? Yeah,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 22:25
so many things from a psychological like standpoint, that just are sticking out to me. But absolutely we parent how we were parented. That's just kind of like intrinsically in us, unless we intentionally try and break some cycles. And that intentional piece requires work, right? And I say it requires work because it requires us working on ourselves to kind of figure out what those patterns are, what our blind spots are, what kind of triggers us to go there, and it's going to be new patterns that you have to learn to then apply with your kid. So it's a lot of work to kind of shift those dynamics, but it's doable, because ultimately, I think most people want to have a strong connection with their kids and a positive connection with their kids and a relationship that they can maintain lifelong. I think most parents want that adolescence is such a tricky time because

Casey O'Roarty 23:31
girl, oh my gosh, you've just begun.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 23:38
I've always joked with my partner that teenage years, can we just send them somewhere else?

Casey O'Roarty 23:43
I'm afraid, good idea,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 23:47
but it's just, I think back to my relationship with my parents and adolescents, and oh, man, it was so contentious, right? Because, yes, I grew up in a South Asian household, but my parents were relatively conservative on many fronts too, and I was this just, I'm very liberal and outspoken of an individual. Been that way since I was a child. So hitting adolescence right? That's just right for controversy and conflict and all that stuff. And as teenagers, they feel so firm in what they're believing in themselves. And like you said, you can remember the like, exact location and where you were and how you felt when your father dismissed you. And I think ultimately that should be our goal is to, like, avoid having our kids feel that way when they come to us, because if they feel that way enough times, they're just not going to come to us anymore, and it's going to rupture the relationship that we have with them, and it's not going to be the same. They're just going to find outlets where they do feel seen and they do feel heard, and they do feel validated and to be. Seen and heard and validated doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they're saying. Yeah, right. I think that's the difference. Is people think like, oh, having open dialog means we all have to agree and we all have to be on the same page. But that's not the truth at all. It just needs to be a platform where people can come and just be themselves and not fear criticism for what they believe in. And criticism is when you come in and you're like, Oh, that's a stupid thing to think. Or I can't believe you think that. How could you right? Versus, okay, that's what you think. Hmm, well, I wonder if we should go look up facts together. That's probably a better response, like, all right, that's what you think. Well, why don't we do some research together and see what the science says, or see what the facts say? So that's one thing I always, even in this conversation about reproductive rights, is if you feel yourself kind of getting stirred up here, there's this difference of opinion. Always fall back on what's factual? Because facts don't have those emotions behind it. It's like a data point. And if you can fall back on that, you can kind of remove some of the emotion in all of it too,

Casey O'Roarty 26:12
especially on this topic, right? Like, depending on which side you lean, you can find some facts that you know are facts to me, not facts to you, facts to you, not facts to me. What I think is really powerful is just being open to in the end, you know, like, Okay, I see you, and this is where you're at, and this is where I'm at, and I would be a liar if I said that I'm out in the world, like having these really open, non emotional conversations with people that don't agree with me, because I'm not, because it is so challenging for my emotions at the door. Because if I'm going to say, Hey, don't be critical of me, the flip side of that is I'm not going to be critical of you. And turns out I'm kind of critical So, and that's just me. You know, everybody else on the planet, like we all get to do our work around this. I

want to bring it back, though, to reproductive rights, and I'm wondering what you think about because in some families, parents have had experience with having the opportunity to choose to end a pregnancy, and what are your thoughts about how to share that with our growing tweens and teens? Is it full disclosure? Like, what are some best practices around being open, around our experiences.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 27:42
I always think of that as I mean it is such a personal and sometimes incredibly emotional journey for the birthing person that has to go through that process. And I defer to like, the comfort and the relationship that you have with your child, like what you feel would be helpful in that setting, but also knowing that at this age, they, to an extent, understand the principles of making that choice and what abortion is, and it's okay again, to be factual about, like what medical procedures entail, Like why you may have had to make that choice? Like, you know, I have a son, and my mission and goal is for him to, like, learn about women's rights and women's barriers to human rights and access, and I want him to understand that from a young age, because my partner, I love him to death. He's amazing. He's always super thoughtful. But I even in his 30s, how little he knows about women's reproductive rights and bodies is like mind blowing to me. And I feel like that lack of knowledge and lack of education about those topics is really where people start to build fear, and then start to make up fill in their own blanks, right? And if we can just help people understand all of the different reasons why somebody makes that choice, all of the different options that were out there, and again, why somebody would elect to go that route, then it kind of demystifies this whole thing, right? Like people aren't setting out to kill babies. Like, I don't think that that's like something people set out to do, right? And many times, women are forced to make that choice because it'll keep them alive, right, right? Or, you know, there's, or it's just not good timing, like, exactly,

I mean, or they just don't want to

Casey O'Roarty 29:49
be, I do. Yeah, things happen

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 29:53
exactly. And I think having folks just, like, really start to understand all those different layers. Like, maybe it's a financial. Reason. Maybe it's a bodily functioning or medical reason. Maybe it's just a pure choice. Maybe, you know, like, whatever it is, there are several reasons for why somebody elects to do that. And I think again, if you have experienced that in your history and you're comfortable sharing, the only way we overcome stigma is by having this type of dialog. The only way we overcome stigma is by people learning more about the process and people just understanding more. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 30:33
and I feel like there's a humanizing too, yes, you know. And I'm thinking about Brene Brown's work around how shame cannot continue to fester when we speak it right? Yeah, there's so much. And you know, the right to choose is just one place that things get dicey. I love our generation Z kids, and I feel like they're the ones that are ultimately going to save us all. I am fascinated by generational differences. Like, I'm a Gen Xer raising Gen Zs. I was raised by boomers. You know, all the things that differentiate my generation from my parents generation, the things that differentiate my generation from my kids, those of us raising teens, most of us, unless we were very young, can't relate to the tech and social media experience that our kids are having. We cannot say back in my I mean, I say things like, Well, I had a phone in my room, so dumb, not the same. Yet, we parents are responsible, and I'm reiterating this, we are responsible for creating guardrails and limits around this stuff, and our kids are tech natives. I just love the way my kids, you know, the conversations around pronouns and gender and sexual fluidity, like it's just in my house with my kids, it's not a thing, especially my daughter. She's like, I don't understand why this is hard for you to remember that they're there, like they, you have to say they, you know? And I'm like, No, I am. I'm in it. It's just hard. And she's like, it's not hard, you know. And it's just a part of the fabric of who she is. And, you know, technology news, it comes fast, and a lot of things that are happening in the world, I hear from my kids first because they're paying attention to Tiktok, which I'm like Tiktok, you know, although it is a gathering place where people are sharing ideas, so obviously, you know, not a valued news source for me, which is a generational thing. So how do we affirm their experience like, and not shut down? Like, Oh, you heard it on Tiktok. You should see my face right now. Listeners, you can imagine what my face looks like. So how do we be with like, I want to affirm what you're hearing and how you're experiencing it, while also like, hey, check the store. Like, who is that person? Like some rando on Tiktok said that, and so it's fact, like, Tell me more. What are your thoughts around? Kind of holding that tension.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 33:09
Yeah, as a millennial, I'm right dab in the middle of all of that, right? And it certainly has been wild to just watch technology take over our lives, like I was in the dial up era I was a child, and I remember, did you have a phone as a teenager? I had a cell phone once I hit I want to say it was 10th or 11th grade, like it was okay later.

Casey O'Roarty 33:34
I don't even have an email in college,

like I went to college with a brother word processor that showed four lines at a time. That was my technology. So, yeah,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 33:44
I was in the dial up internet era. You know, my first email address was, I think, no, I had one before college, but we never really used it much. But I was in the era where Facebook used to be just for college students, right? Like it was a much more protected space, but now, I mean, I get my news off of social media sometimes, and it's all about, like you said, I think certain brands, certain professionals, are recognizing that that is just where we're moving. Part of it is just an acceptance on our older generation's parts of this is actually a news source these days, and there are folks that have expertise and are reputable that are providing information in these spaces. And then I call it like the pros and cons of social media and technology these days, because there certainly are so many benefits, like the access to information and the ability to like see people from different lived experiences, which I think is so important for us to learn and just like build empathy, is having that access to all these different types of people and cultures and environments and from like a very niche community, like a blending community, the black and Indian community, online spaces have been so so nice, because you don't find us in physical. Environments often. So being able to find people with like minded experiences is so great, but as a parent, there is also that negative side of things, because the Internet can be an unsafe space in a lot of ways too. So as a parent myself, one of the things that I try to do, and it's pretty early for me and my kiddos, only three,

Casey O'Roarty 35:26
I've got you listen, in 10 years, you'll be calling me girl

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 35:29
I know I might be I'll be like, listen, I now empathize with where you were 10 years ago.

Casey O'Roarty 35:36
We can redo this conversation,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 35:38
but I think that kind of goes back to our openness as adults. I do think we have to educate ourselves on what these platforms are and know what can be on these platforms and how they can be unsafe for our kids, and we do have to have dialog with them about what is safe internet usage, what is unsafe internet usage? Like, you know, risky behaviors on the internet. We need to know what those are, what our kids are getting into making sure that we're setting boundaries there, too, just like we would in our physical environments of parenting, too.

Casey O'Roarty 36:15
Oh yeah. You know, we talk about this a lot here on the show, for sure, it's hard to set those freaking limits, but we have to do it. So even assuming like, limits are set, and now bringing it back to Okay, so I saw this on Tiktok, and then the experience of like, tell me about the source like, tell me about who was talking about this and who else is talking about it. Because typically, my kids will be like, Mom, it's all over Tiktok, all over Tiktok, all over Snapchat. I'm like, Well, tell me more, you know. And then I do my Google search, and I'm like, oh, it's also on NPR, okay,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 36:56
right? No, that's a great approach, right? Like, Oh, I would love to hear who the source is. Like, who did you hear it from? Tell me more about who that person was, and then, like you said, doing your own research, or bringing them along that research journey with you. Of like, oh, let's look this person up and see what's going on. And like I said, a lot of professionals are starting to shift to use of Tiktok and other social media platforms, because it really is a way that people are getting information these days, and

Casey O'Roarty 37:24
that's where in front of the screen, that's for sure, yeah, and it's

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 37:27
better that they hear it from a trusted source, right? I think is the justification on the professional end of things, as if, if they're gonna get the information from somewhere, you'd want to hear it from an expert, right? But it is kind of us doing our due diligence, because we know there's a lot of misinformation on the internet too, and that's the tricky part, because this misinformation era, these last couple years, have really influenced opinion and really influenced perspective in a lot of ways. Yes, those

Casey O'Roarty 37:53
damn Russians sitting

here thinking, do I say it right?

So yeah, and I think there's something really lovely here, too, because, you know, when I think about the identity development that's happening, I love that phrase in adolescence, you know, part of that is their critical thinking. And critical thinking isn't just something that you know magically happens. I like to think about the questions that I'm asking becoming the dialog that slowly is forming in my kids head around like so that eventually they're going to see something and think, who is the source? Like, can I trust this person and where else can I find this information to confirm? So I think it's a really powerful model, and if we can stay out of judgment and criticism of the platform, you know, then we can stay in the dialog around critical thinking. Because once I'm insulted, I'm not really listening to the person that's talking to me. And so if I'm like, tick tock, you know, that's already kind of shutting that door to a dialog around, sorry about the source. So, yeah,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 39:02
you know, we want to focus less on like, where the platform, like you said, the platform, and where the information's coming from, and more of like the content of the information, right? Like, what is the messaging that they're giving you and telling you? And if we can focus on that, then we can have a more collaborative discussion and problem solving conversation, and like you said, we can model those critical thinking steps like if we think of young kids, little kids, that are trying to figure out a puzzle or figure out a problem, we don't want to solve it for them, right? Because then they're not developing those skills on their own if we're just fixing and rescuing all the time. And the teenage years are the same way, but the problems they're trying to solve are much more complex and a bit scarier for us adults, because they're more adult and mature problems, but we still want to give them the space to kind of figure it out on their own and sometimes fail in that process, as long as they know. We're here to catch them, and we're here to kind of help support them through that.

Casey O'Roarty 40:03
And so, I mean, maybe we've answered this question, but I'm thinking about how, like, as a teacher, you know, in the classroom, like there's some value to I'm going to keep my political opinions to myself, to hold space for anything being possible. Like, okay, I've totally failed at that. If that's something we're supposed to do as parents, I don't do that. My kids know exactly where I stand on things. And I'm just wondering as I'm thinking about it right now, you know, because I also want to include, like I said at the start, I know there's listeners, if they're still hanging in there with us, who are also very emotionally attached to being pro life, yeah, right. And they're raising teenagers too. And as desperately as I want my kids to understand and value my opinions on the world, I know, you know, there's parents who are equally as desperate to have the same happen for their kids, if you're listening, you know, and that's your come from. Like, I just want to acknowledge you, and the fact that it's going to be challenging, regardless of where we land, when our kids are saying, Well, I think something different, yeah,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 41:13
and to, like, normalize the difference in perspective too. There's nothing wrong in being pro life. There isn't what I say to kiddos and folks I talk with all the time is you can have your opinions, you can have your thoughts and your perspectives, as long as they're not harming other people, they're not harming yourself, and they're not harming property like those are my three big roles, right? So you can be pro life. I think the issue we're facing right now is that the pro life agenda has now impacted many people that don't believe those things. Yeah, and that's the problem, right? Because we're not saying don't be pro life. That's your prerogative, and that's your choice, and you are entitled to that. The issue is that's now becoming my choice that I have to live by too, and that's not what I want to live my life by that's the issue. And I think if we can kind of approach our conversations with our kiddos in the same way of you can have a difference in opinion, as long as that opinion isn't hurting me or you or anybody else in that process, then we can talk about it, and you can continue to have that opinion. If that's what you choose, it's just what we do with that opinion. That's the concern. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 42:26
so let's take a little turn real quick as we wrap up, because I'm so interested in your work around parenting culture and so talk a little bit about how parenting culture intersects with the challenging political societal conversations. I only know the experience of being a white woman living in a white, dominant world. And so what are some other layers that can show up with, you know, mixed race, faith, culture, households, when it comes like to these election times and these hot topic conversations?

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 43:03
Yeah, absolutely, it's like messy landscape, right? And none of us have a blueprint of how to navigate these things, but they are, like I said earlier on in the episode, they're inevitably going to come up in discussion at some point, especially around charged events like the election time. I know I have a lot of conversations with my in laws and my husband's side of the family when it comes to political beliefs, and you know, faith based beliefs, usually around election time, it just stirs up that discussion. And like I said, our kiddos are also kind of soaking this information in, and they are now in this society, like you mentioned earlier, Gen Z is so much more aware and so much more equitable, and just like their beliefs as a whole, which is fantastically amazing, I'm so excited to see what that generation does. But as we parent and we're raising the next generation, providing tools to be conscious of that process that is coming from a more inclusive and equitable space is really our mission, and that might be conversations about race, which every family should be having, not just minoritized families, not just historically marginalized groups, but every single One of us should start to understand how different experiences are, by race, immigration, experiences, language differences, and then even these hot button topics like gender issues and reproductive rights that are having impacts on our kiddos, mental Health already. And what we do in the space is provide toolkits. We provide fact sheets that are grounded in science, that are based in like interventions that are evidence based in a lot of ways. And then we add the cultural element in. And these toolkits really offer a guide for you to use at home, really. So. So we came out with a toolkit back in June that addresses how to have conversations about abortion and reproductive rights with your kiddos across the lifespan, and how to touch on everything from like the emotion involved with abortion to the physicality involved with abortion to just the choice and body autonomy and consent kinds of issues, and how you can do that with little kids and teenagers alike, and we try and do things like give you exercises to do at home, or give you conversation stems and like how to respond to difficult questions that your kid has. So you know, as you lead this podcast too, I hope you all will check out the toolkit that we have on the website. It's free for all, but really, really, our intention is to just support parents through these difficult conversations that we otherwise don't have resources for. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 45:47
and I know on your website, as I was poking around, you have a video that just talks about how, you know, growing up and coming of age, you recognize the absence of culture, your culture, in the kind of standard conversation. And so, you know how, I mean, this might be too big of a well, I'm gonna ask it. Like, I don't know if you know who Brett Hawthorne is. She wrote anti racist children. It's great book. Everybody hopefully listened to that episode earlier this fall. You know, she talks about how to bring anti racism into the home. But, like, I find it really interesting. You know, even talking about covid And the way that covid has affected communities of color, and even though, you know, we are super white family, but bringing that up to my kids and being like, Hey, did you guys, have you heard Do you realize, like, this is having an impact on you and on us. And have you read anything about the impact it's making on this community of people and that community of people? And I'm thinking about, you know, one of the ways that I chose to take action after the Roe v Wade decision was that I gave to an Indigenous women's organization that is focused on health care for Indigenous women, because that just felt like the right thing to do. I mean, it just felt like, you know, not only is it all like, All women need support, but it's like, well, yes, and there are definitely groups that are, you know, really in the trenches around needing support with health care and reproductive rights and all the things. So, I mean, I guess I don't know what my question is. I just kind of spewed out a bunch of stuff.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 47:29
No. I mean, be better ally. Great. Overall question, one of the things I stand really firmly with is this idea of socialization, racial socialization, and what socialization just refers to is basically exposing yourself intentionally to groups that are not like yourself, while also building up your own identity and your own cultural identity. Even white Americans have culture within them and what it means for them to be white American, and it's kind of recognizing what that means for yourself and your family and your children, because the more firm we are in our own cultural identities, the more we'll embrace and respect folks that are different from us, too, and socialization, again, intentionally having relationships with folks, being mindful that there are different experiences out there, and celebrating those differences. I think oftentimes, when we see differences, we become fearful and we become guarded, and then we avoid or we withdraw, and we just don't engage with folks that don't look like us or think like us or behave like us. And that's the issue. The more we can intentionally socialize and celebrate and be okay with differences, the better off we're going to be. And I think that's what Gen Z has doubt. Nobody is telling folks to conform in that generation. Nobody's telling them they have to act a certain way or be a certain gender or live their life in a certain boxer category, and that's what they're doing beautifully.

Casey O'Roarty 48:59
Or if people are telling them that they're just giving them the big old middle finger, like, watch

this. Actually

love it until the middle fingers pointed at me. Yeah. Anyway, well, as

we wrap up, as we wrap up, talking about just all the soup of what we're in right now, is there anything else you want to make sure to leave listeners with today? Dr Ferguson and I am going to put a link to your download in the show notes,

so don't worry, that'll be there.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 49:24
I appreciate that. I think we've covered a lot, and I guess my biggest takeaway is just that openness, right? Openness from every single one of us, even those of us that think we know it all you know, sometimes I fall in that category, and I'm often learning even from my little three year old, he teaches me a lot, many days, about how I don't know it all. I think that openness and just willingness is really what we need. A little bit more of. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 49:53
it's huge.

My final question that I ask all my guests is, what does joyful courage mean to you? Mm. Hmm,

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 50:00
that's a great question. Joyful courage, to me, is just the bravery to live life authentically and positively and joyfully while looking for those little moments of happiness that do exist, even in this chaos of the world that we live in, and just being so presently focused on that love

Casey O'Roarty 50:25
that where can people find you and follow your work absolutely.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 50:30
So you can follow us at parenting culture on Instagram. You can also follow my professional handle on Instagram, which is at Dr Anjali Ferguson. And like I said, we also have a website with all of our resources, which is parenting culture.org,

Casey O'Roarty 50:47
perfect. Okay. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was awesome.

Dr. Anjali Ferguson 50:52
Thank you for asking me, thanks

for going to all the places.

Yes, absolutely. I really enjoyed the conversation. So thank you for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 51:08
Yay. All right, thank you again for listening in to another show. Please check the show notes for any links mentioned in this episode. If you liked what you heard today, will you do me a favor and share it screenshot the show. Plaster it all over your socials, so that other parents know that we are creating value over here for them. If you really want to earn a gold star, head to Apple podcasts and leave us a review. This does so much for the show, for the exposure, it's a great way to give back. Thank you to my team at sproutable for all your support. Alana,

Julietta, I love you so much. Thank

you to Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for keeping the show sounding so good. And you listener, thank you for continuing to show up. This is hard work that we're doing. I encourage you in this moment, in this moment together, let's

take a deep breath in

and follow that into your body. Hold it for a moment exhale, and with that exhale, release the tension, and I invite you to trust, trust that everything is going to be okay. I'm so happy to support you, so glad to have spent time with you today. I'll see you next week. Bye,

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