Transcription
Casey O'Roarty 0:08
Music, hello, hello, my friends. Welcome back to joyful courage, a conscious parenting podcast where we tease apart the challenges and nuances of parenting through the adolescent years. I am your host. Casey overarty, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and adolescent lead at sproutable, where we celebrate not only the growth of children, but also the journey and evolution that we all get to go through as parents. This is a place where we keep it real, real stories, real parenting. The teen years are real messy, and there aren't many right answers, but the more we trust ourselves and trust our teens, the better the outcomes can be. The Parenting we talk about over here is relationship centered. You won't find a lot of talk about punishment, consequences or rewards. What you will hear is a lot of encouragement about connection, curiosity and life skill development. Our teens are on their own journey, and while we get to walk next to them for a bit, we don't get to walk for them. Their work is to learn from the tension of their life. Our work is to support them and love them along the way. I'm so glad you're here. Enjoy the show.
Hi listeners. Welcome to the show. My guest today is my friend and colleague, Fernanda Lee. Fernanda holds a degree in business administration and worked for Accenture Bank of America and other investment brokers until she became a mother and decided to learn more about child development, so she went back to school and now holds a master's degree in education with pupil Personnel Services credential, and has served as a school counselor in elementary and middle public schools. She is a lead trainer in positive discipline, serving parents, health professionals, teachers, early childhood educators, couples and professionals in the workplace in the United States, Brazil, Portugal and Luxembourg. Fernanda was featured in two national magazines, Escola and English as a foreign language, discussing the practical application of positive discipline in the classroom. She is very thankful to be raising her two teenagers with positive discipline, as without it, she would have pulled all of her beautiful hair out. Hi, Fernanda. Welcome to the show.
Fernanda Lee 2:42
I am so looking forward to this conversation.
Casey O'Roarty 2:45
I'm so excited too. Before I hit record, I just had to tell you, and I want to let the listeners in on it, I had to say, I feel like we're kind of the lone wolves who are really excited about talking about positive discipline with teens. And it's just, I mean, my soul is so happy to be getting ready to have this conversation with you as someone who gets excited about the teenager conversation, so yay.
Speaker 2 3:12
Yeah, that's a good timing the life of anyone. Yeah, to be going through that, it's scary. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1 3:19
wild. It's wild. And I just love watching you like you. So everyone, Fernanda and I, we see each other like once a year at a conference, and you have so much poise and grace. And I just love the way you hold yourself, and even as you move through the room, it's because I dance ballet. Well, you can tell like it's obviously, I just love it. And watching you on Instagram, I mean, you speak Portuguese. You're speaking Portuguese in your work on Instagram, my native language. That's your native language. And I don't understand Portuguese, but I love to watch you speak it. And then I hit the and if I'm reading your post, I'm so grateful that I can hit translate so that I can see what you're talking about. But it just seems like you're having a really good time doing the work that you do.
Speaker 2 4:07
Yes, you know. And it shows on screen, yeah, if you are being real or if you are faking it, yeah. And when your teenagers want to be part of something that you do, you celebrating. Sign say, Yay. I'm doing something that they don't feel embarrassed, that they want to be part of, just like, Yes, I'm
Speaker 1 4:28
on the right track. That's so funny. Rowan, my oldest, who's 19, has been doing my show notes for me, and she stopped. She's moved on. She's no longer writing my show notes. And so I asked her last night, I said, Do you miss listening to me every week as you write the notes? She's like, well, she goes, it's weird. She's like, I'm not gonna listen to your podcast, like on my own for no reason, but I do miss listening to you every week. So I thought that was really sweet, and I felt like that was a weird. Oh,
Speaker 2 5:00
my God, this is a win. Can I share another win? Yeah, my son has a girlfriend. They've been dating for three years. Oh, and
Casey O'Roarty 5:09
that's serious,
Speaker 2 5:10
has been a little bit difficult in this last month, according to His words. And he came to me and said, Mom, you know, I had to use one of your positive discipline tools, which is, give limited choices to her. Love it. I just like it actually worked. I said, Oh, good. What did you learn from it? It's just like, I'm gonna keep doing that. So it's another win. Yes,
Speaker 1 5:38
great, great, great, great. So tell me how you got into positive discipline. How did you find it? And like, take a moment and tell us, because I mentioned in your bio all the people that you work with, I don't think my audience realizes the expanse of the certification trainings that are available through positive discipline. We talk about that, yeah,
Speaker 2 5:58
but when I started, I didn't know what was positive discipline? It was like a embarrassing moment and also a pivot moment in my life. My kids were really small babies. My daughter was one and a half. My son was four. They were enrolled in a child development based on Project Zero from Harvard, the one that incentivized multiple intelligences and beautiful work that they do, and they were there waiting for me to pick them up. Everything was fine. I agreed. The owner of the Child Development at the door, the educators were with my babies, and as soon as they saw me, Casey, they started fighting like among themselves, and I was just like, I had to walk the death hallway, right? Everybody watching me to see what is she going to do? And it was horrible. I wanted to be the judge. I wanted to be the life savior and justice, like who wanted to what. And it was very, very embarrassing, because everybody left crying, including me. The next day, I did not want to drop them off. I was so embarrassed, and I had to go. And the owner of the Child Development was at the door, and she said, Hey, good morning and welcome. And by the way, here's the book. And she brings the book, the positive discipline book in Portuguese. Say, here, maybe you can find some other ways to deal with sibling rivalry that doesn't look like a formula. And I was inside, it was just like, that's the testament I needed, that I really, I am bad mom and I went home and then start reading the book. Couldn't put them down until I finished reading the whole book. And I said, How come people all over the world don't leave the maternity the baby one hand and the book in the other hand, because this is like such a relieving information and give us principles to actually understand what's going on with our generation and tools to actually deal with those everyday problems. So then I decided to just ask people, Hey, have you read this book? You know there are questions at the end of each chapter. Do you want to talk about that? And very informally, I start putting together study groups and found other mothers and fathers who are going through the same struggles. And when I moved to the United States, I decided to do a certification for parents. And I felt like, wow, this is really impactful. What am I doing in business world? I need to go into the child development world. And it changed my life. It changed my career. And then I decided to, you know, keep pursuing. Became a trainer in positive discipline, then a lead trainer, as you were also lead trainer. And it never stopped. I mean, I decided to take a certification for positive discipline in the classroom, positive discipline for early childhood, positive discipline in the workplace, for couples, and today, I teach the five of them, the five certifications. And also, I am a pioneer in bringing certifications to the Portuguese language in Brazil and in countries in Europe.
Casey O'Roarty 9:34
You're a rock star. Basically.
Speaker 2 9:38
I feel like it changed my life. You can change the life of so many other mothers. No, it's good to feel like a rock star, but I want to be a rock star in my own life. Yeah? I mean, totally. I want to wake up in the morning feel like I can do this. Yeah. I.
Speaker 1 10:01
I mean, just listening to your story. I mean, my kids were the same age when I found positive discipline. And it's emotional to think about how this philosophy, this lifestyle, really has, you know, pivoted made such an impact on my life as a human being, right? Because, like you said, there's programs for couples, bringing it into the workplace, into the classroom, as well as in the home and in preschool settings. It's because it's about being in relationship with other human beings, you know. And I love that your son, you know, picked up on, oh, I can try one of those things that mom talks about here and how useful he found it to be in his relationship with his girlfriend. And I'm so grateful, right? I'm so grateful for, you know, for me, it was my girlfriend, Jeanette, who was like, you know, because I was teaching a different thing, a different program for parents. And she was like, I think you might like this other thing. And I'm so grateful to her, and I'm sure I'm hearing you so grateful for that. You know that preschool person who was like, here you go, check this out, and then where we can go with it, I think is really special. I'm getting ready to do a certification training with Julietta Skoog, starting tomorrow, training a new group of parent educators. And it's just the impact that we get to have as we train people to go out in the world and train people. It's just such a gift. It's such a gift. It makes me so happy. We're going to talk about teenagers, though we're going to talk about teenagers. So what I want to know from you, because you came into positive discipline, your kids were little, and now so your son is he 17? Yeah,
Fernanda Lee 11:42
my son is 17 and my daughter is 14,
Speaker 1 11:45
okay, yes, and everyone knows mine are 19 and 17, so a couple years ahead, but the same age spread. So as your kids moved into adolescence, we're going to talk about positive discipline during the adolescent years. What did you notice about your own practice of being, you know, of really embracing positive discipline while also having that shift in who they be during the adolescent years? What have you noticed?
Speaker 2 12:14
You know, Casey, for me, I don't know if it was the same thing for you, because you started when your kids were little, I said, I'm going to invest my time and energy in positive discipline. I really want to put that time to make it work and test the tools, because when they turn into teenagers that we hear so many horrible things and very scary, I will be like, this is like insurance. Everything is going to be just fine. I'm gonna just roll in the ocean of no waves when they are teenagers. However, when they start turning to a teenager, which is, is a process. It feels like the rule of the game changes, and nobody tells you what the rules are. And if you're like, What am I? What I'm doing? You know, things that used to work so well are not working anymore. And the thing that made me realize is that I was in shock. But nobody tells you that that experience is coming. You know, your babies, your kids, wanted to live with you or next to you when they grow older now they say, I want to live in others, out of the country. I don't want to see you just like we feel rejected. We feel like, almost invalidated everything we did up to now, and that's a shock. I don't know if it happened to you. Oh, it did.
Speaker 1 13:51
Yeah. I mean, list long time listeners have, like, rolled through some pretty intense years with me through the podcast even. Yeah, I felt like, when my oldest it was around 14, like, end of eighth grade, and then just really barreled into the gauntlet at the start of ninth grade. I don't know if you felt like that, because I was the same way. I was like, oh, teenagers are probably not going to be that hard for me, because I've been doing this work, and no, that is a lie. So sorry. Anyone who has younger kids who are listening in now like it's still like, there's no averting teen brain development, right? And I remember just feeling like, Have I been like, I my trust and faith and positive discipline was severely shaken to the point Same, same here. I was like, what have I been doing? This whole like, is this? Have I been lying to people? And I remember, that's when I reached out to our colleagues. You might remember this, but I was like, I want to, I'm going to do an audio Summit. I want to interview trainers. And lead trainers who already have had teenagers. I am not interested in conversations with people who have not had kids or had teenagers, and I only want to talk to those of you who had kids who had struggles. I don't want to talk to those of you that are like positive discipline is so magical, and we loved the teen years. I don't want that conversation, because I don't believe it, and I put together a whole summit, and it was for purely selfish reasons. I mean, it was all about like, how can I get it? Because I do believe, I believe in this, and how do we be with our kids? You know, mistakes or opportunities to learn is a mantra of positive discipline, and then they're teenagers, and you know, they're telling you, mine, at least, were telling me things like, yeah, I tried vaping, or I got high for my first time at the football game. And I'm like, How do I sit with this in a way that is going to maintain relationship and continue to open up conversation and support them in being critical thinkers about the choices that they're making, especially when they're doing making mistakes. But it's like they're getting away with things. So it's not necessarily like, now I've gotten caught and I have to deal with the natural consequences. It's more of just like, hey mom, we've got this relationship, and I'm going to tell you all the things I didn't realize how hard that would be. What I've learned is like, and we say this, right? Even when parents are parenting young kids, who you be is more important than what you do, and that in the teen years, like should be in neon lights, right?
Speaker 2 16:42
Yes, and the being changes. This is the thing for me. The Shock happened because I needed to change, and I did not know who my child was turning into, and I did not know what kind of mother I was going to turn into. And that was the part that makes us so confused. Yeah, you said anything surprising? The surprise was that, just like I need to change it. I don't know how, yeah, or change, because it's well used, yeah, yeah. So the being needs to change, and being uncomfortable, it's hard for the human being. So what happened is that I pick up the book positive discipline for teenagers, and Jane Nelson is just so wonderful in her writings, because it feels like she's writing to us, yeah, and knowing the signs what's normal for teenagers, because it will happen different for Roland and your other child, and for Katie, for my daughter and for Chris for my son. There are certain nuances that will be different for each teenager, but there are certain things that are the same. They do want more space. They do want to close the door and put on the door. You know, get out. Yeah,
Fernanda Lee 17:59
stay out.
Speaker 2 18:05
Yes, which you have to Google. You go now what it means, but it's just like I never expected my little kid to do this. He's turning to a monster. So the surprising part is that you getting to a shock that your son or daughter is going through this period of discovering and exploring as you are, too, and a lot of people changing to adapt to a change that we don't know how change is going to look like. Yeah, so it's messy, yeah, but that was the most surprising thing for me, yeah,
Speaker 1 18:39
and that, I think we have this false sense of control when they're little. And you know, I know there's a lot of parents who are like, Yeah, my littles, they were already hard, right? And but for some of us, you know, you feel like you have a handle on things and you're using the tools, and everybody's somewhat compliant. And, you know, you get this false sense of, Oh, I've got this, I have control over this situation. And then, yeah, adolescence rolls around. And, I mean, I remember being like, Oh, I actually have very little control here, and doing my own work around the difference between control and influence, and recognizing that influence comes from relationship, right? And that was a big piece for me. And even now, like, even now, I feel, you know, I'm in that I can feel that tension of wanting to, like, shut something down, and realizing actually what's going to be the most useful here is to lean in and to be curious and to ask questions so that my child can explore in a way that leads them to the best choice for them, right? And that it takes so. Much faith, right and trust and courage and letting go and surrender. Oh, my God, yes.
Speaker 2 20:06
You know what was helpful for me two things. First, to remember that positive discipline teaches principles and is a real test to put those principles into action, to leave those principles, if you truly believe you said faith. You know, have faith that everyone deserves dignity and respect. When your child is saying, I want to run away, she's like I never expected my little baby with blue eyes, you know that I hold so dear my arms and I still see my son, you know, like a baby, why? You know, I we refuse. And then you see your son now with a big voice saying, Oh, I don't agree with you. You're just like, it's 11 o'clock at night and you're having this endless argument that, you know it's not going anywhere, but he still wants to talk about he's just like, yeah. Now try to put that in practice. Try to be respectful. So that really helped me to ground me to say, Okay, what's the principle I can lean on that would be helpful, because I don't want to screw this up by saying something that you will be a mess for me to fix down the road. And the second thing that really helped me is to revisit me as a teenager, because we carry unresolved issues, or resolved issues that now you think it was resolved, but it's not resolved because your child taps into something that either you did or you were afraid when you were a teenager, and now the fear all comes into a wave, just like, how about if my son does that? Because I never did that, and that internal talk can be brutal if you don't know yourself. So you gotta know yourself.
Speaker 1 22:02
Yes, I love that. I just actually got off the phone with my sister and her, she is a baby who will be one next week, and a five year old, so she's in the early years time. And we just talked about that. We just talked about, you know, being with the discomfort of our kids or our grown SIB you know, our siblings or our parents or our partners is so hard for us. And we were talking, she had called me and because we had had a conversation about this in the context of my brother, who is sick, and I was talking about being with him in the darkness of the range of reality of outcome for him right now. And she said, I've been thinking about that. And she told me a story about her daughter had fell down yesterday, and really clocked her chin and was just falling like big whales. And Jamie said, I just, I took her to their urgent care. She's like and ultimately, I just wanted them to sedate her. I just wanted them to calm her down, because it was so hard to be with that pain and discomfort. And she was asking me about, you know, how do I get started in that? Because, you know, and the unfortunate answer is, you have to be relentless in choosing in like, you just have to be consistent and consistently go there and over time, a lot of time and practice and high repetition. It becomes something that is a little bit easier each time. I think, with our teenagers, that's and that's something my daughter, Rowan, like, gave me huge training ground in right? Was because she would demand, I was very much wanting to fix and like, let's stay positive here. Like, take a walk, do some yoga, drink some water, you can feel better. And she would say, Mom, this is how I feel, and I'm gonna sit in it. And you can either sit in it or you can leave, wow, you know, that's wise, yeah, so wise, from her part, well, it was a long period of time we got better at communicating, both of us, on both sides, got better at communicating. But yeah, I think that that is, for me, one of the biggest challenges. I mean, aside from, like, the standard, you know, substance experimentation and curfew and like man, you know, attitude and not doing chores. For me, probably the biggest challenge has been to be with them, regardless in whatever emotional state they're in, in a way that is supportive and validating and just not fixing, right? Yeah,
Speaker 2 24:43
well, Jay Nelson writes, who your teenager is today is not who they're going to be for the rest of their lives. And actually, like, How can I believe that moment totally,
Speaker 1 24:56
totally like, are you sure that can't be true for my kid? Right? Like, Oh my God. And the relationship that you have with your teenager right now doesn't necessarily indicate the relationship that you'll have with them forever, either.
Speaker 2 25:11
Yeah. And just to continue, the thought is that when you are going through the nightmare, the the wave, just you don't want to believe, but as the wave goes in, the ocean comes down, you say, oh, I can see that, yeah, the way I react on the moments of panic, you actually shape the experience for me and for my child and this relationship you just mentioned about. So I think there's so much truth to that that if you hold on to, yeah, they're not going to be like this, it can actually help you navigate the tough times, right? They're not going to be like this forever, so I'm not going to act as if they're going to be like this forever, that it changes the way we accept and react or respond to that very tough situation
Speaker 1 26:05
well. And what I love, yeah, let's stay on this thread. So what I love about that, if that's a if we hold that as a truth, right, they're not going to be this is not who they are going to be forever, then that releases me from this feeling of responsibility, that I need to do something to change who they are right now, right? It feels like, Okay, this is where they're at. And I love what you said about how we are, how we be in those times of crisis is absolutely going to influence what you know, what lies in the future. I have a couple of clients who you know, their teens are having a really have tough time. There's a lot of anger and defiance and pushing away. And I'm always looking for better ways of articulating how you know, the way you respond right now is absolutely going to you know, because the kids, once they move through the wave, whether it takes a week or a month or years, they're gonna get to a place and either say, Yeah, my mom, my dad, they made it harder for me, right? Like I feel judged, my worthiness is in a tough place because of how they responded to me, or my parent never left my side. I knew that they loved me through it. I knew I could count on them when I was ready to count on them. That, you know, if what we want ultimately is a relationship with our adult kids, which I think we all do, there's a lot to be said for how we show up inside of what can feel like a crisis or a challenge. But I love that. Ah,
Speaker 2 27:39
you know, I don't have it here, but usually I do have a Velcro on my desk. And this is an analogy that helped me remember her name. I can see her. It's Jody mcvety's Sister, Sahara. Sahara, yeah, she uses this analogy. So this is her credit, okay, but it helped me so much. The velcro, yeah, right. You have the crispy part,
Speaker 1 28:08
yeah, is that the teenager? Please tell me that's the teenager. The firm part, okay, sweet part. Oh, the Velcro, yes, the pokey part.
Speaker 2 28:16
Help me find a better word, the rough, the rough part, yes, I don't know. I like crispy. Is the firmness, and you have the soft part, which is the kindness, yeah. And you need both, right, right? So when the teenager shows up with a behavior like, I want this, I want to go. I want this, they come with something, and you just react with the firmness. No, you're not going, you know, because who the adult here is me, and I am telling you, you don't know, there's no glue to it. You know, this tough part is just not going to stick to anything. You need the softness as well, which is I hear you tell me more about it. Let me understand how you think why this is important to you. Let's sit down and find a common ground. If we can't, then I'll have to decide. You know, so without that kindness, there is no firmness. So that's why positive discipline for me is so it's like, as you said, the philosophy of life is the way you move through life. You have to bring this softness in you, which not all the time, has to be firmness, to show who is the authority here in the house. It's me, just like if you soften a little bit and you remember how you were a T and would you need it that will help you with the kindness, which is also so important, yeah, and that's why you don't have to control all the time. Control is the tough part of the Velcro. You just try to, you know, put limits and do this, do that, you know, I'm afraid you're going to do this, because you don't know what you. You want freedom and you don't want the responsibility, yeah, and the next
Speaker 1 30:03
thing you know, you're like, nailing their windows closed or something ridiculous, right? Like, yeah.
Speaker 2 30:08
And you were like, with a Velcro trying to stick, and nothing mistakes, because you didn't build the kindness. And we're so good with the kindness, when our kids are babies, when they're little, and they're so adorable. And they talk like this, and they say something wrong, and you should go, I want to tell everyone I want to post a video. But when your teenager messes up, you don't want to post a video, yeah, where is the kindness part? Say, Hey, pick up your stuff, and I'm here to help you. And when your son or daughter says, you know, I want to pick up my subject. Okay, I'm here for you, and I know you can do it, because I've seen you show perseverance or patience, and I know you can do it, and I'm here for you. This is the kindness part, yeah, that I think it misses to complete with a firmness when we need to put boundaries on limits.
Speaker 1 31:11
Yeah, I definitely when I think of those two words and listeners, if you've been listening to me for a while, you've heard me talk about kind and firm, kind and firm, I like to also think about it as two words that you actually have used already, which is connection like that. Kindness is really about connecting, and the firmness is like you just said about boundaries. And not only boundaries for our kids, but boundaries like our personal boundaries too, right? And I love how kindness and firmness fits inside of mutual respect, and I love in positive discipline, because I think a lot of times, you know, kind of the traditional, the old Well, to me, it's the old news. The old way of thinking about mutual respect is like, yeah, you're respectful to me and I'm respectful to you. You have to earn my respect by how you treat me. And I love that positive discipline turns out on its head and says, No, actually, I'm going to be respectful to you. I'm going to respect you and your needs and where you're at your development, while also respecting myself and the situation that's happening. It feels so freeing not to be dependent on Well, I can't. I'm not going to be respectful to you because you're being an asshole, basically, to me, I
Casey O'Roarty 32:26
need to say something.
Fernanda Lee 32:30
We're geeking out. I love it. Renee,
two hours, you know, just sharing practical wisdom here. I recently read a book by two alerian therapists, and I have only in Portuguese, but I will name in English, because this book is just so amazing. Is the courage to be happy. I think this is the courage,
Speaker 1 32:56
is this and just reminding everyone positive discipline comes from Adlerian philosophy. And so when Fernandez says written by two Adlerian therapists, it means that they're trained in the grounding and in the philosophy of where positive discipline was birthed from. Yes,
Speaker 2 33:14
this is a really good book to start if you are more interested into the theory behind positive discipline. So the name of the book is the courage to be happy. It's by Ishiro kishimi and fumitaki koga, two Japanese therapists, and it's a dialog between a philosopher and a young man who questions everything.
Casey O'Roarty 33:40
Wait, wait, wait, wait, is this the courage to be liked?
Fernanda Lee 33:43
This is the second book, because
Speaker 2 33:47
is the courage to be disliked, okay, okay, the first book is the courage to be disliked is the same authors, same type of conversation. So this is the one. And the philosopher writes about respect. And he writes something like that, I'm just going to pick up from memory and translate, because I'm reading that in Portuguese, but he says respect is actually showing interest into other people's preoccupations or interests, or whatever they are attuned to. So this is respect. When you show interest to what other people feel. It's important. And it was a new way for me to look, oh my gosh, that's true, because so many times we demand respect. Hey, look. I mean respect me because I am your mother. I know more. Yeah, but respect, as you said, you cannot be demand. You can only, you know, be modeled. So let me show interest to you. Are interested in a lot of parents that I serve. They don't think it's important. They don't think, Oh, my son is broke by with this. But this is nothing well for your teenager, is he? Huge. You remember when you were a teenager, and the things that you were worried about, they were not worried about anymore, because you went through a process of understanding, giving a new meaning, you know, and leaving a little bit of more of a life that gives you perspective and experience. Your son or daughter don't have that yet, but if you show meet with where they are now, that is respectful. So I like this definition of respect. I
Speaker 1 35:29
wonder, what do you think? Yes, yes, me too. What you're triggering in me is something that came up. So I went through dialectic behavioral therapy program with my daughter a couple years ago, and it was so useful and so much overlap with what we share, and I just love it. And one of the principles that is stuck with me is that we all have equally valid separate realities, right? And that's what I'm hearing you say, like a teenager who's preoccupied with something that doesn't seem like it's that big of a deal to us, it is an equally valid separate reality, right? The war that my husband's in with our neighbors was recently like, listen, they are sitting inside of their equally valid separate reality and experiencing us probably in a really similar way that we're experiencing. Bravo. So bravo. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And by the way, Fernanda, I love that. I'm hardly using my outline at all. Right. Now, this is such a fun conversation. The other piece too is that. So how do you help parents who are in that, like, kind of, you know, it's like pulling somebody through the sand when there is resistance to recognizing that our teenagers experiences are valid. Like, how do you help parents? What are some thoughts you have around supporting parents in letting go of kind of the grip they have on know they're being ridiculous, or they're being illogical or they're being irrational. How do you help parents soften towards opening up to the possibility that they're actually just in their experience? Good
Speaker 2 37:12
question, the million dollar question, yeah, right. Don't
Casey O'Roarty 37:17
you have the perfect answer to that? Let's
Fernanda Lee 37:19
take a break for the advertisement well,
Casey O'Roarty 37:24
and we can tease it apart, because I'm confronted by that all the time too, you know, especially with one on one clients who are like, no, they need to know XYZ. They need to do XYZ. So
Fernanda Lee 37:35
here's one way to approach that. You only teach through modeling, right? And I don't think the parents come to us to ask for advice. They are asking for validation. They are also asking, do you see me? And their tools aren't working? This is why they're coming to us. It's not because they have a problem. It's because the tools they know how to solve that problem aren't working anymore. And I think the same thing goes the relationship teenager parent, those tools that teenagers have aren't working anymore. This is why he escalates. So one way to approach this is to use the tools we have of positive discipline and model that to the parent, so maybe it's asking a curiosity question. Tell me more about it. Why this bothers you so much when your son stays in the room with the door closed and doesn't want to go to school. Tell me what are your biggest fears? How were you when you were a teenager? Because sometimes there is no match, right? Sometimes that parent who is complaining, it was a super good student and the parent did not need to nag. So tell me your story so I can see or try to see the problem through your viewpoint, so I can help you find different ways to approach this, because I don't have the solution, but if the both of us talk about it, then we can expand our perspective to find a way to connect with that teenager. So it's based on that. So a lot is I'm talking to that person, to that parent to that caregiver. And then now that you explain that to me, what are you going to do about it? Because on that same book, just like this book, we're going to have a book club. Actually, I'm leading a book club about that book in Portuguese. That's why it's just in my mind is that we tend to tell a story, saying, for me, I'm doing everything for my son. My son is not replying with love and being grateful. Or he, you know, this demeanor, it's not what I taught. Those are the part that poor me and or they react by saying the other people are being mean. The other people are the responsible for me to be acting like this. And very rarely, we see, oh, we have a problem. Here. I am part of the equation. Either I can be part of the solution or I can be part of the problem. And we parents most of the time, unconsciously, we are part of the problem because we're trying to solve our problem, right? We're not trying to help our children learn life skills that can actually help them down the road. And when we shift that, she's like, huh, how can I be part of the solution? What can I stop doing that I'm doing that bothers my son, just like, for example, stop talking about colleges. They don't want to talk about colleges all the time. Talking about college is important to you. You want to see you succeeded as a parent because you put your child into a college in a good one Ivy League, top five US News. So let's talk about that. I don't want to talk about that because I have the rights to, yeah, you have the rights. And your son has his own life too. So he can go to college and go unhappy to make you happy. Or he can go to college because he went through the process of seeing his aptitudes and seeing, having the experience to actually leave those aptitudes through work that wants him to go to college, yeah. Which
scenario do you want,
Speaker 1 41:30
right? Right? I love that. I think that's super valid to my listeners, too. And I love what you said around parents coming to us and really wanting validation and to be seen, because that's the exact thing that our kids want, right? Like it's what we all want. We want to be validated. We want to be seen and held, really, in whatever it is that we're going through. And it reminds me, too, of, you know, we talk a lot about the iceberg metaphor and but I'm hearing you speak into around being solution minded is really looking under, you know, instead of like pecking away at the tip of the iceberg and the behavior that's presenting itself, instead recognizing that whatever is happening underneath the surface is really the place to explore, because that's what is going to shift behavior in a meaningful and a sustainable way, because we grow through that beneath the surface of the iceberg work like, that's where we grow, and that's where we evolve, you know, putting the hammer down, or, you know, using coercion or manipulation to get the behavior to go away, isn't doing anything to shift or expand how our teens are feeling inside of their experience and so, yeah, I really appreciate
Speaker 2 42:55
and most of all, they're learning boundaries. Yeah, because my daughter older, they said, Mom, I want to go to the Belmont Park. And my mind is just like, No way you're not going away. End of the conversation, right? What
Speaker 1 43:11
Park? What Park was it called? Belmont Park. Belmont Oh, Belmont Park, yes, okay, you're in San Diego, right?
Fernanda Lee 43:17
I am okay.
Casey O'Roarty 43:19
So what goes on that's
Fernanda Lee 43:21
on my mind saying, right?
Speaker 2 43:25
But that's not what my mouth said, and I try to, you know, contain my demeanor. Yeah, so I use a three step process that I teach my parents to that help me ground me and say this conversation needs to be short, needs to be kind and needs to be firm. So the three steps goes like this, facts, values and limits. Facts, value limits. Every time I have a really, really tough conversation that I don't know, what am I going to say, it pops in my mind is three words. So I go facts. Oh, you want to go to Belmont Park because my all my friends are going, and we think we're going to be so much fun, and we're going to be there between six and eight o'clock at night. Okay, so let me share something with you and that park. Let's go the facts. I've tried to find two sentences that can fit that category. In that park, there are a lot of homeless people. I know there lose bullets, and people who use drugs and guns are around there, and I know people have been killed in that park, and I just want you to be aware of that. That's just facts, right? Nothing beyond that. Two sentences, then it goes to values. What are my values that I'm trying to teach her? So I am concerned that not for you, because I know you're smart lady with your friends. However, sometimes when we are just we're. Women, we can be a target. And my value is that I respect myself, and I respect and I care for the safety of my friends as well, and I don't want to put any of your friends in risk. That's the value that I shared with her, caring and respect herself. And I go to limits, like the boundaries they say that park you are not going, I'm not taking you and I'm not allowing you to go. So it's a hard No, right? And oh,
Speaker 1 45:28
everyone, let's just pause for a moment and respect and celebrate the fact that hard nos are allowed. Yes,
Speaker 2 45:35
right? No, yes or no.
Casey O'Roarty 45:38
Okay, Carry on, carry on some limits, the
Speaker 2 45:41
limits, boundaries, and you're not going there. I'm not taking you, and I'm not allowing you to go with your friends, and you can choose another place to go. Now, do you want some ideas? Would you like me to take you to the zoo? Would you like to bring your friends here? Go to the beach? Would you like me to think about other places you can go. And at that moment, I felt like I was trying to read her reaction. She was having a really hard time to absorb all that. And I know it's a lie, and I like in my mind, I need to count to 10 to allow her to have the reaction she has, because she's allowed to have her feelings. I don't want her to feel good from what I said. I want her to feel that she was heard and there are boundaries. That was my goal. If she's going to be sad and call me the most mean mom in the world, and I'm really conservative, whatever they want to say, it's not going to affect me, because the the Teaching isn't make you feel good. It's make feel like, yeah, there are certain times that are boundaries. So she complained for five minutes. It was horrible. My job was to keep, you know, a tape, an imaginary tape, in my mouth, like this, Fernando. Whatever you do, just don't say anything. Don't roll your eyes either. Just let her have her feelings. And then after that, she texts her friends, and then decided to go to another place. Yeah. So you see how being firm in kind and the moment of the wave, the big wave. If you can hold to your firmness and kindness, it can really be helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 1 47:26
yeah. Well, and what I really appreciated Fernanda is that five minute like that reminder that to expect the response to be, huh? Thanks for laying that out for me, Mom, you're right. I don't want to go to Belmont Park like it's a inappropriate expectation, right? Like to hold space for her experience of disappointment and discouragement and mad at you and worried about what her friends are going to say, whatever is going on internally for her, I feel like it's so respectful to offer to hold a space for them to be inside of that without adding our own stuff. I just really appreciate that, and I think that's around, you know, that's really where we get to not take it personally when she's mad at you and you're so strict and
Speaker 2 48:14
the other mistakes. It's just like they want to keep going into the conversation. They want to have the final saying. They want to have the best argument that will win at all when you're already won by being that influence that we talked about in the beginning of this podcast, you do not have to control I don't have to control my daughter's reaction and expecting her to thank me. I can just be that influence. And she keeps bugging me. I said, this is a no, this is, let's think about all their places. You know, if you just open your mouth to redirect, you use your influence with such a more positive way,
Speaker 1 48:54
yeah, and I'm looking at the time, and I was very confident that we would be complete by 10 o'clock. Do you have a couple more minutes I do a couple more questions. Okay, great, perfect. 10 minutes. Okay, great. Well, we'll wrap up. We'll wrap up because there's so much in this conversation for Nanda that I want listeners to really sit with. I think this is going to be one of those conversations to listen to a few times everyone, because there's big things that we highlighted, and then there was a lot of small, little, nuanced things that I think, you know, we do an activity called the continuum of change, and you don't really, and it's all about, you know, unconsciously unskilled, consciously skilled, as we learn new things, and we get to that place of unconsciously skilled, I think you and I doing this work for as long As we've done it, there's a lot of things that we don't realize are now a part of us, but other people are still working on creating so I encourage listeners to, you know, go to the beginning. Listen again a few times, yeah, because I think there's a lot here that we don't even realize that we're dropping. These little nuggets so ah, so good. I'm so grateful that you are out in the world. Is there anything else that you want to make sure that you leave listeners with today? Fernanda, before we get to my final question,
Speaker 2 50:12
it's worth it. Positive Discipline is worth it, and it's not permissive. It's not like, wow, I don't I'm not going to say, no, they're going to put limits. Teenagers need limits, and it's our job to know what's appropriate limit. Yeah. That means you need to get to know yourself, and sometimes you just get to know yourself at the times of the conflict, yeah. So take that opportunity to say, why is this bothering me so much, why is so important for me, for my son to go to college? So work that out with somebody with a friend or your spouse or a therapist, because I really think that our teenagers want strong parents when they are rocking and they're confusing, they're exploring, they want to go back to a safe board and feeling like, if I tell my parents that I try vaping, they're not going to freak out. They're going to say, Hey, I'm not I'm upset, and I want to talk about it. This carried for me. This is a safe board. They want to go back to that kind of parent. So if we can be more and more that safe board, we will build a relationship that will allow us to enjoy our kids when they were babies, when they're little kids, when they're teenagers, and when they're grown adults, that they're going to be their own I want to have a relationship with my grown children, yeah, and their children. So I need to learn how to not be invasive and be this person who is pleasant, who celebrates, and sometimes will say, Hey, have you thought about that? This is not healthy. And I wonder what you think having that openness without feeling judged, because I know how it is to feel judged by a parent or a teacher or friend is horrible. You don't want to share anything with them. So I want my children to share because they are becoming wonderful people. They are Yeah, and I'm really proud of them.
Casey O'Roarty 52:12
Yeah. I love that. So I always finish asking my guests, what does joyful courage mean to you?
Speaker 2 52:20
You know, courage is that like you you are here in this podcast, sharing your experiences, even though you're not perfect. Courage is to ask for a hug from your teenager. It's to share what you have learned with other people. Is to celebrate the mistakes and give a new meaning. I mean, courage is really it's what we need to live life without that. We don't get out of bed,
Casey O'Roarty 52:49
but we need courage. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Where can people find you and follow
Fernanda Lee 52:56
your work? Okay? If you want to learn Portuguese and see
Speaker 2 52:59
the My seeli tiktoks and reels with my kids, because they do participate in some of them, and I ask permission. I only post when they say, Yes, Mom, you can post this. It's Philosophia positiva official. I know Casey is going to
Speaker 1 53:17
put out there that in the show. Definitely, definitely, yeah, that's my Instagram
Speaker 2 53:22
and my website. Philosophia positiva.com.br,
Fernanda Lee 53:27
for Brazil.
Casey O'Roarty 53:27
Do you do any of the trainings in English? I
Speaker 2 53:30
do, and I post on the positive discipline.org. Website, okay, great.
Fernanda Lee 53:35
I do teach, yeah. So
Speaker 1 53:36
if you're listening, great, great, great, great. So if you're listening, I'm confident in saying that, you know, 98% of my listeners are speak English. I don't know how many English is their second language. I have no idea. How many are native Portuguese speakers? Yeah. Tell
Casey O'Roarty 53:53
us if you are. Tell
us boning in. Yeah, definitely. But you know, the workshops that Fernanda leads, like I want to just mention again, there's empowering people in the workplace, which is a positive discipline workshop. There's keeping the joy in marriage, again, the tools applied in the context of romantic relationship. There's early childhood trainings. There's the teaching parenting trainings and the positive discipline in the classroom training. So again, as she mentioned, go to positivediscipline.org to find out what she's got going on as far as those certification trainings. And this was so fun. Thank you for spending time with me.
Speaker 2 54:33
I appreciate a beautiful conversation with my friend. I learned so much from you. Thank you for doing what you do.
Casey O'Roarty 54:39
You're welcome. You
Fernanda Lee 54:40
are needed,
Casey O'Roarty 54:41
as are you.
Yay. All right, thank you again for listening in to another show. Please check the show notes for any links mentioned. Question In this episode, if you liked what you heard today, will you do me a favor and share it screenshot the show, plaster it all over your socials, so that other parents know that we are creating value over here for them. If you really want to earn a gold star, head to Apple podcasts and leave us a review. This does so much for the show, for the exposure, it's a great way to give back. Thank you to my team at sproutable for all your support. Alana Julietta, I love you so much. Thank you to Chris Mann and the team at pod shaper for keeping the show sounding so good. And you listener, thank you for continuing to show up. This is hard work that we're doing. I encourage you in this moment together, let's take a deep breath in and follow that into your body. Hold it for a moment, exhale, and with that exhale, release the tension, and I invite you to trust, trust that everything is going to be okay. I'm so happy to support you, so glad to have spent time with you today. I'll see you next week. You.
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