Eps 330: Learning about the Parenting Identity Development Model with Mercedes Samudio

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Transcription

Mercedes Samudio 0:00
If your oldest kid is 10 and you have an eight year old, your parental identity is actually 10, right? And so whether you know that or not, is what the model helps us understand, right? So if you have a 10 year old, that means you're moving into tweens, I might ask a parent. So right now, it sounds like your kids kind of pushing at you. Yeah, there's, I don't know, like you said, there's some disrespectful of a sudden this, I'll say, let's put that on the back burner. I want to ask you a question. How do you demonstrate who you are to those around you?

Casey O'Roarty 0:30
Hello, hello, my friends. Welcome to joyful courage, a conscious parenting podcast where we tease apart the challenges and the nuances of parenting through adolescence. I am your host. Casey overdy, positive discipline trainer and adolescent lead at sproutable, a company that represents not only the growth of children, but also the journey and evolution that we all get to go on as their parents. I'm walking the path right next to you as I navigate the teen parenting years with my own two kids here in the beautiful Pacific Northwest, joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. Thank you for being here. We are over 1 million downloads and 300 plus episodes strong, and you have taken us to the top 1% of podcasts worldwide. I so appreciate you. I'm so glad you're here. Enjoy the show.

All right, listeners, I am really excited to introduce you. Reintroduce you really to my guest today, I have Mercedes samudio on the podcast. Mercedes is a parent coach. She's a licensed clinical social worker, best selling author and speaker, who helps parents and children communicate with each other, manage emotional trauma, navigate social media and technology and develop healthy parent child relationships. Over the course of her career, Mercedes has worked with adoptive families, foster families, teen parents, parents navigating the child protective services system and children living with mental illness. Mercedes started the end parent shaming movement, as well as coined the term shame proof parenting, using both to bring awareness to ending parent shame. She published the book shame proof parenting, finding your unique parenting voice, feeling empowered and raising whole, healthy children. Mercedes was on years ago. It feels like episode 122 and we dug deep into the shame proof parenting philosophy. She is a leading expert and has an amazing following on social media that allows her to reach the hearts of 1000s of parents who feel heard and seen on their parenting journey. Mercedes has been featured on the Huffington Post, US News and report, Women's Day, la parent magazine, CBS, LA and kids in the house. She seeks to empower parents to believe they are already great guides for raising healthy and happy kids. To learn more about Mercedes and her work. You can go to shameproofparenting.com is that still the right link? Mercedes is yes. Okay, great, good. Mercedes is also my friend, and I'm so happy to welcome you back to the show.

Mercedes Samudio 3:27
Thank you so much for having me and for opening. I always listen to, like, intros, like, did I do all that stuff? That's so weird. You

Casey O'Roarty 3:35
did. Girl, you did all that stuff. And you keep doing stuff, right? You keep doing stuff. It was, you know, a few years ago, three or four years ago, that you were on last and I got to meet you in person a few years ago. When was that? 2019

Mercedes Samudio 3:49
2019 Yes, it feels like a lifetime ago.

Casey O'Roarty 3:52
Oh my gosh, it really was a lifetime ago. So what has had been happening with you? What's gone on in the last few years for you and your career,

Mercedes Samudio 4:02
I really it has literally been, like three or four years, like, since the conference. But the conference actually interesting enough. When I went into it, I thought this conference is going to change me, but I thought it in a very positive, optimistic way, and it changed me, just in a lot of ways. I was not expecting it to and I think it was a great process for me to go through as someone who does this work with no kids. I'm not getting the process through a child. I want to times getting the process through trying to be human myself. I'll put it that way, as kosher as I'll put that so it's like when you're messing up and you are trying to figure out who you are, you realize that even as an adult, you're still messing up, you're still making horrible decisions. And I don't try to sugarcoat it, some of the decisions I made were really silly about the conference. You know, when you look back, you're like, who wouldn't make that decision? But that's where I was at that moment, and that's who I was. And so I share that to say that the conference really did change me, the diversity and parenting conference, it grew into a nonprofit. It's been, you know, kind of just sitting on its own right now during kind of the upheaval that's happening, but over the past few years, that conference really invigorated this idea that I really do want to change the way we see the parenting world, not just through my philosophies and my work, but also through the speakers who we allow to show up, do the people who we allowed to show up? I still get people who forget that there are step families and foster families and adoptive families that deserve to be treated with the family title the same way we do the traditional families. And so from the conference, it really invigorated me going back to my doctoral program. So now I'm in my doctoral program, DSW, doctor in social work, I've taken a mini business course, so that's helped me to, like, get better and get back into my space. I've revamped shame proof parenting a little bit, so now I offer shame proof parenting and tenses, which are, like, full days, where we just dive in. And I take parents from this feeling of overwhelm to feeling like they could actually do this parenting thing, and so that's kind of where I'm at right now. I still do, you know, individual sessions through telehealth, they don't teach as much anymore. I was teaching, but I stopped that, just because I think what I learned during this time is that I also need time for me. And so at the height of the pandemic, I was teaching, I was trying to get to school, I was trying to recover. I was doing everything. I was also still seeing clients, and I was like, oh, I need to re assess what this is. I need to reassess this helper. Every hour of my day, I'm supporting people, and I have nothing for me. And so I stopped teaching in 2020 because I realized I really wanted to focus on me and not have all of my hours go towards helping or healing others. I was really interested in healing me. And so on top of all of those other professional things, I started go back to therapy. I got trained in EMDR, and with tmdr, I got trained in brain spotting and what to brain spotting. And so I healed a lot of my stuff too. And so there's been a lot of growth, not just professionally, in that identity, but also, I think, the pandemic and this stuff, it just made you reassess yourself and your life and who you are, and so I did that as well. So it's been a real huge journey these past few years to be honest with you, so

Casey O'Roarty 7:12
great well. And the conference. So again, that was a diversity and parenting conference, and I was so thrilled to get to volunteer and be in the background and support from that angle. And Mercedes like that conference, you know, I was already in pretty good recognition that I live in a very white world, in a very white bubble, and I had these little outlets of like, glimpses of like, oh, there's, there's more going on, yes, and that conference, for me was such a great opportunity to connect with so many amazing, important, powerful people doing such great work in the world. And I started following them, I've started to build relationships with different people. Some of them have been on my podcast and been a part of my summits. And I'm just so grateful for that space, that open, welcoming space for me to choose to step into and be a minority inside of a group of people, right? Because that doesn't happen very often for me. So that was really powerful. But because, you know, as a positive discipline trainer and kind of under this positive parenting umbrella, it feels very white, right? And but being connected to people like Leslie Priscilla and you and Ann Louise Lockhart like it's it doesn't have to present that way. And so I'm just so grateful for everything that I experienced and continue to learn and uncover and discover about, you know, my own lens because of that conference, it was really, really powerful for me. I really, really appreciate it. And one of my favorite presentations from that weekend was yours, right? Like we're gonna talk about today. Is it a theory? Is it a what is it philosophy? What? How do we capture it? A developmental model, a developmental model that really captures, you know, the development of parents. And I was telling you before I hit record, like I searched for my notes, I couldn't find my notes. But when I think back to sitting and consuming that presentation, I remember how it made me feel. And I remember feeling like, oh, this is big. This is useful. And so I'm really excited to have you come on and hear more about it. So the parental identity development model, yes, I get that, right. Yes. Okay, so tell us a little bit about what that is.

Mercedes Samudio 9:42
Yeah. So it is a non stage developmental model that really helps us understand what humans go through as they begin to take on the parenting role, whatever that looks like. The model really starts with pregnancy, not trying to be gender specific or even body. Specific, but that's because usually at that time when there is a baby being kind of created, is when people realize I'm entering to a caregiver role. Whoever the birthing person is is also obviously growing a human. So they're aware of that, but the other people involved are also starting to become aware of, Oh, there's another human that's going to be here, and my role is going to change, and it follows us all the way into a parenting age, adult where once you get to the age where you're parenting a parenting age, adult child, your life looks a lot different than parenting from I'm just now realizing this is baby curly, right in this world, and so the model is not something that's like, you have to do it this way, but it's actually based on all of the work that I've done watching parents go through these huge shifts as they have to enter the world because they have a child. And so, for instance, entering the world because you have a toddler is a lot different. Because you're not entering as yourself, you're entering as this person's parent, this person's caregiver, and that's how people are responding to you. If you've just now come into the role that you are this person's caregiver, that can be really jarring. They're a toddler now that means for the first two or three years, you haven't been really paying attention to how much of a role you're playing in this person's upbringing, which also means you're not paying attention to how raising this person is changing your identity in developing and so the model's idea is to help us really understand, where is a parent when we meet them based on how old their child is. The same way, when we meet children, we think, where is this children based on how old they are? Where are they? Where are they developmentally? Where are they cognitively? Where are they emotionally? The Parental identity development model gives us a framework to look at. Where is this parent with a toddler? Where is this parent's mindset with a teenager? What task should they be able to complete with a teenager? And if they're not, let's look backwards and see where in your parental identity, did you not get the help you need it so you can be where you need it to be for your teenager right now, and that's the work I've been doing for Yankees over, you know, a decade.

Casey O'Roarty 12:17
It's so interesting, like, what a flip to look at. You know, there's so much focus and material and resources and study around child development, but to say, like, you know, like, Okay, well, yeah. I mean, it's so of course, but it's also like, Oh yeah, well, yeah. And thinking back, we recently found a bunch of our old home videos, like literal videos from a video camera, and my husband is downloading them onto the computer. And so every once in a while, one of us, or many of us, will sit down and it's all my kids, zero to like three. It's early, early years. And I gotta tell you, it is both so sweet and so heartbreaking, especially when I have see the videos of my baby, second child, and my three year old, oldest child, and the way that she is so desperately trying to get my attention and how I'm responding to her, makes me really sad. It makes me really sad. And you know, I didn't know what I didn't know back then. And yeah, it's just, it's yeah, the way that I, you know, personally, have grown on the journey and how my identity has been shaped because of my role as a parent of a toddler, a parent of a school age, a parent of a middle schooler, and now, you know, one is out of school, and what did you say parent of an adult? Yeah.

Mercedes Samudio 13:41
So there's,

Casey O'Roarty 13:43
what was it, adult age? There's three. What are they?

Mercedes Samudio 13:46
You have a young adult, and then an adult, and then a parenting age, adult. So there's three adult stages. Okay, now it looks like you have a young adult.

Casey O'Roarty 13:52
I have a young adult 19. Young Adult 19. Yeah, yeah. So talk to us about these stages. And just kind of like, what are those developmental tasks that we have the opportunity to be hitting? Yeah, yeah, in each stage.

Mercedes Samudio 14:09
I'll start with the one that most people realize they're a parent in, and that is the childhood stage that has come after pregnancy, infancy and toddlerhood. Can you guess why you start to realize, okay, I'm a parent at childhood. Once your kid gets to childhood, you're like, Is this happening? Gosh,

Casey O'Roarty 14:25
because they start making choices that are independent of you, like they kind of assert that autonomy and that sovereignty, and maybe we're cheering it on, or maybe it's conflicting with what we'd hope they'd be doing. Is that kind

Mercedes Samudio 14:39
of So, yes, that's the perspective you had. It's why I asked you before I shared it, our perspective, oftentimes of where we are is based on where our kid is. So we're saying they are getting into the world, they are doing this. They're behaving this way. But what really happens at this age is that you're actually starting to explore and you're starting to recognize. Just how much influence we have over each other. It's not just because your kid is doing things. You're actually realizing what you just shared is that I have a lot of influence on how my child shows up. It's a very jarring moment to realize that the things you've said in the house are now being said at school, the ways you got you whispering and spelling words out and not they were picking up on the feel of the house, right? And it's hard because of what you just said. They're also trying to figure out how to human. Childhood is the first time we realize that a kid is a human because they are starting to human. They go to school, they try to eat by themselves. They can usually put on their clothes by the time they're in childhood. And it's scary, if for the first four to five years, you haven't paid attention to that,

Casey O'Roarty 15:42
yeah, right. Or you've been over delivering, or under delivering, or, more harsh than not,

Mercedes Samudio 15:50
because you start to see it, yeah. Start to see it reflect. They go to school and they come back and teachers, like he was doing this today, and they're like, oh, okay, right. So you start to see, yeah, being reflected in the world.

Casey O'Roarty 16:03
Do you feel like so? Because sometimes I think this is also a place where, you know, I think that it's attuned parent who recognizes the connection between how they show up and how their kids are behaving, versus, you know, a parent that's less attuned and really keeps the onus on the child. Like, you know, it really, it's like, Well, where did you learn that? How could you do that? How can I nip this in the bud? Is that a place where gaps happen, that just missing that influence piece? Yeah.

Mercedes Samudio 16:34
And I also think too, going back to kind of what you just said, which I thought was great, is that a lot of times you're just parenting, you're not actually worried about what's happening. Nip this in the bud, get this dealt with. Do this. Move on. Stop, go, close time. We gotta get out of house like you're just parenting. It's not into a childhood that because of how your kid experiences the world, you start to realize it's not just parenting. I need to actually raise a human person, because up until then, they are just doing it. You can literally pick up a two year old and put them in the car try to pick up a six year old. It's fun, but they start flailing and fighting and getting on Right, right. And so it's like, when a two year old flails, you just put them in the car seat, and you go, when a six year old, like, falls out, you're like, Okay, I can't pick you up anymore, which means I need to teach you how to human because, you know, and it's a really interesting cycle, because what I notice is what you just shared. No matter how attuned or not attuned you are, you realize how this is affecting you. Hence, childhood is recognizing influence. That's what's happening at that stage, right? It's I'm starting to realize how much my kid influences my mood, but I'm also starting to realize how much I influence them. The key question of this stage that I'd like parents to meditate on is who or what influences what I think feel, believe and behave,

Casey O'Roarty 17:52
love, or what influences what I think feel, believe

Mercedes Samudio 17:56
in how I behave and I like to behave, part because oftentimes we're aware of our influences for our thought process, but we're not always aware of our behavior influences. When I find a lot of parents is as we do our work, I'll say, what do you use the first time you remember someone saying a kid needs to sit down? Oh, my grandma used to that all the time. Kids need to sit down. They do not need to be moving around. Is that how your grandma talked to you? Oh, yeah, wherever she was, right? And so it sounds like that behavior might come from someone else. You still believe that kid should just go somewhere and sit down. Now you've realized who influenced that for you, your grandma, who always told every kid to go somewhere and sit down. You start to notice, I don't really think that anymore, but I know who gave me that right. That goes back to what we talked about. The Positive Discipline is when we run up against this is new, but grandma said, and Auntie said, and mom said, and I'm fine. So I guess it worked, right? So I like to bring the behavior in, because I don't like to tell people you're not fine. I like to say, where did you first realize that was true? Oh, well, because for you to realize it's true. It's why you think you're fine. I believe that's true. Kids need to go somewhere and sit down. I go somewhere and sit down. My kids wouldn't sit down. We're fine. That's actually a very valid thought. I am fine, right? Like this

Casey O'Roarty 19:13
is all very true for us. I'm fine enough, right? Talk to my therapist, but, you know, right? But we're

Mercedes Samudio 19:19
not able to always link that up when I don't want to link that up. And so that's why I love that conversation about it's not just where we think and feel by the time we become adults. We actually are pretty good at realizing where those influences come from, but sometimes our behaviors are very disconnected to our thoughts and emotions. So it's also, what do you think influences your behavior to Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 19:36
like just questioning being in the questions you know, we might know where the influences come, but how much time are we spending questioning those influences, right? And so I'm hearing you talk about giving yourself permission. It's recently been discovered that I have a really hard time being with other people like, you know, we got some mental health stuff. We got some stuff in the house. Like, it is very hard for me to be with my kids' emotions. I'm the feel good fairy. I've actually been called that before, and not like, I mean, yay, feel good fairy, but also, how freaking dismissive, right? And I realize it in my head, and yet, the discomfort that I feel, and I recently was thinking about, like, similar to what you said, like, Where does this come from? Why is this so hard for me? And I realize, you know, I was raised in a household with a parent who was inconsistent with her moods, and when she was dysregulated and in her emotion, it was so charged and painful for me, and that's absolutely influencing right now, and I you know, so I think that that's such a useful, important reflection for parents, yeah, so thank you for that. Yeah, and it's childhood, like five to 11, yes,

Mercedes Samudio 20:55
like that middle school, because then there's tween, right? Absolutely, it's like that middle childhood, right? And so after toddler, I put toddler like four, right? They're coming out of it, four or five, four and a half going on five about now we're in childhood, for sure. I'd say first grade is really good for childhood, because that is when your kid is at school for eight hours a day and you have no idea what they're going to be doing. Oh, man, it's so different when they go to school for a couple hours, because after two hours, you can kind of get them back home and say, Okay, I can reset whatever you did, but once they get to first grade and second grade, they're in school for eight hours a day, lots of decisions they have to make on their own. Again, at that age, they have teachers, go here, go here, go there, but there's still moments on the playground where there's not a teacher saying, This is how you play ball. And so they've got to negotiate, how do I do this with another kid who might not have the same house as me and not have the same parents as me, and not have the same family as me, and might have other things going on. And so he throws the ball right at my head, and I'm mad, so I kick him. And well, there we are.

Casey O'Roarty 21:47
Yeah. And if we follow a path of logic, you know, a lot of times the path of logic makes a lot of sense as to why it ended up with a kick to the shin, yeah. Oh, man. So childhood is that influence place? And I love that it's the both and of being aware of like our influence over our kids as well as, you know, the way that they're influencing us. And one of my favorite things to say is that our most powerful and useful parenting tool, you know, as far as influencing behavior is the relationship that we're nurturing with our kids. And I think if we're aware in that first half of this whole at home period of time that we have with them, you know that can look a certain way, and then we move into tweens and teens, and brain development and connection and relationship starts to get funky. So talk to me about the parental tasks during adolescence. These are my people. Yes, right, and me, right? Me too, right there.

Mercedes Samudio 22:53
I'd say I think what's funny about the tween age is that cognitively, they've actually reached their peak. So they have all the cognitive stuff they need to start formulating ideas about their world. That's the tween stage. By the time they're 11, Piaget has said that they have all that they need for cognitive development. They can look at things in the world and put together stuff, right? They can start thinking abstractly. It's why tweens start getting so sarcastic, because they're starting to think of abstractly, right? Oh, really. Okay, that's an abstract thought. It's different than when you're a kid. You say, Are you sure it's the same sentiment? But now I'm just like, you're not going to do it right? Because I'm still trying to figure out, how do I share with someone my disappointment? How do I share with someone I don't actually believe you? How do I share those really,

Casey O'Roarty 23:40
while also protecting ourselves. Listeners, I wish you could see Mercedes face when she makes the teen statements, because it's so perfect.

Mercedes Samudio 23:49
It's like, Have you ever seen a twin before?

Casey O'Roarty 23:56
Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting how quickly parents go to they've become so disrespectful without actually considering like they're trying to assert their cognitive peak, yes, and you know, and push back while also protecting themselves, like it's really it's fascinating to think about it that way. And

Mercedes Samudio 24:18
by the time they get to be 11 or 12, they've also been in the family for over a decade, so they know what type of family they live in. And so thinking about that too, with my cognitive understanding, I know mom is going to yell, so I try to either preempt it so I can get what I want, or deflect it so I can get away from it. Right? I've learned that, right? It's why, also parents start to feel like they're coming after me. It's like because they're being really intentional about how they're using what they've learned in the family, because it's a cognitive thing. It's they're not aware of the emotional turmoil that's taking on the family. Yet they might not have that, but they're able to say, well, I know if I poke my sister, she'll yell, then we'll get into a fight, and then I can do whatever I want, like, and this is, I'm using hypothetical examples, but it's like, start to start things. Like kids start thinking that way, like cause and effect, fairness, right? Like, what's right? You will see a tween call out fair almost everything, even when it comes to, like, meal time, like she has more potatoes than me and you're like, adios meal It's not that serious, but they're looking at fairness a lot more now they're looking at who's getting more you like them more. You care about them more. You don't like me as much, right? Like because they're starting, it's cognitive, right?

Casey O'Roarty 25:26
Well, they're collecting information too, right? I mean, isn't that a piece of this? Yes. So you might be the parent thinking, like, Why do you think that? And then they can pull up the data points. Yeah. Well, I think it's so interesting, too. And I wonder so when like what you just said, because I feel like there's dismissiveness that can happen when parents think, well, they're just trying to manipulate me, and I'm not hearing you say they're learning to manipulate. They're learning to navigate where they have found themselves. And is the like, you know, hypothetical like, poke the sister, get into a fight, and then ultimately get to do what we want. Is that something that you find is in consciousness, or is it more of just like, talk about like that. So

Mercedes Samudio 26:13
I'm glad you got to that, because you brought us to what the question is for the parent in this space between is right, questioning, right? They're questioning, but so are you. You're starting to question. Have I done this? Right? What's wrong with them? I thought I taught them everything. Why are they acting like this? You're questioning too. You're starting to observe all the identities in the house, especially if you have a couple kids right at that age. So they're supposed to be doing that, right? They're preparing themselves for their teenage years, right? Your question here is, how do I demonstrate who I am to those around me? Your kid is trying to figure out who they are. They're trying to, do you like me? Do you like this? This is what I'm wearing when you think of this. They're trying to figure out who they are. They're trying to use all their little cognitive things that they figured out. And it's triggering, because for us, sometimes we haven't even learned. How do I show myself to my family? How do I show them this? How do I show that this is a new shirt that I love, that's why I'm wearing it. How do I show them that I got a new pair of glasses and I want everyone to care, because that's what's happening with your twin.

Casey O'Roarty 27:16
Oh my gosh, that's so interesting, right? Because I'm really good at having expectations that I haven't necessarily let anyone in on. I'm just gonna divulge all the My Places of personal growth needs, my feelings get hurt because the expectations aren't met. You know, if can feel vulnerable and I'm thinking too about when my kids do ask, like, what do you think about this outfit, or what do you think about this shirt? And like, really, how vulnerable that question really is, and I hardly ever think about it as a vulnerable question, right? You know, especially if I'm like, I don't know about those pants, right? And

Mercedes Samudio 27:57
so going back to that question, how do I demonstrate who I am to those around me, right? And seeing questions like that as are they trying to tell me something I think about this is the age where most tweens, if they're going to come out, they might know to or they might start to think, I think there's something else about how I see myself and how I see people, right? So how do I demonstrate that to others? Sometimes it's in my clothes, right? I definitely laugh at at my tween age. I was in junior high, and then eyebrows were in, so I shaved half my eyebrows off, trying to be dumb, and my mom just looked at me. It's like, what like? I'm just trying to figure this out, right? And so it's this idea of, how do I demonstrate who I am to those around me? The whole purpose of the questions is so you feel into what's happening for your kid without looking at it from their perspective. You're not looking at it actually from their perspective. They are going on their journey, whether you want them to or not. You're now looking at it from Well, where am I? My kid is trying to push and pull and tug, where am I? My kid is starting to, like, literally push off of me. Where am I, right? And so in these developmental model, it's helping us all to understand there's a human still developing in there. There's a person still in there, and that person is about the same age as their oldest kid. So if their oldest kid is four, that parental identity is four. If their oldest kid is 18 and they've got a three year old, their parental identity might be 18 that they probably haven't paid attention to, so they probably don't even know that. So they're starting with this four year old guy. I don't know what I'm doing. You actually done most of it, so let's look at it right. If your oldest kid is 10, and you have an eight year old, your parental identity is actually 10, right? And so whether you know that or not, is what the model helps us understand, right? So if you have a 10 year old, that means you're moving into tweens, I might ask a parent. So right now, it sounds like your kid's kind of pushing at you. Yeah, there's, I don't know, like you said, there's some disrespectful ascendant. This, I'll say, let's put that on the back burner. I'm gonna ask you a question, how do you demonstrate who you are to those around you, and I've never had a parent in between go, oh, well, yeah, I just say this. They always sitting it up.

Casey O'Roarty 30:14
It's a new consideration. It gets new territory, which is really exciting, right? I think, right? Really exciting, right?

Mercedes Samudio 30:21
Sometimes I'll even move backwards on the questions. So right before that question is, who influences what I think, feel and behave, and if they're like, I don't know. Okay, how do I accept myself as I am talking? I don't know. Infancy. What have I learned about being a human Oh, well, this is what I learned. Okay, so where are they? They might be at infancy, then they might have an eight and a 10 year old, but they're still trying to figure out what they learned about being human. They're not able to be at that space where their teen is or they're 20. They're not able to be at that influence space with their child now, which is that discord. If my kid is out in the world exploring that, I'm still trying to figure out the Infancy stuff or recover from it, we're on two different wavelengths. No wonder my kid is triggering me because I hadn't even caught up to where they are. They're out there running around and messing up and doing whatever, and I'm still trying to figure out, what have I even learned about being a human being? I'm stuck on that, wow, right? That's an infancy level stage, right? Where most people aren't able to do this. And I talk about it a lot. My idea if I can be really open and transparent is, I hope this is becomes the model, the same way we use it as child development. I have yet to meet a parent in today's world who doesn't know child development. Most have a vague understanding, right? Just people will tell me, okay, my kid is 14. They're in this stage, right, right? But we don't know that about parents, and we don't know that about the humans who choose to care give, and it's because we only see parenting as the person who's birthed the child or biologically made the child. We don't see parenting as everybody who kind of takes that caregiving role for that kid. There's all these parental identities that show up, but who's taking the main role of caring for this child? Is it the mom and dad? Is it grandma? Is it auntie? Because those people that are going on this journey with that child that they are the caregiver over so my grandmother had done it already. Her youngest kid was 20, so she was a young adult in this space. She should be launching. She should have been accepting the past, present and future. She should be thinking about, what do I want to know about navigating my world, through my own and with others? That's where she should be with her youngest. That's

Casey O'Roarty 32:26
where the 20 year old should be, or the grandma, yeah, okay, the parent, okay, I'm

Mercedes Samudio 32:30
gonna go with my mom. Yeah, right. So that's her youngest, right now, here's the fun part. Her oldest was actually in the adult stage, and so as you look at it, she's also in the stage of, how do I want to show up for myself when not caring for others? That's her oldest. That's the question, right? Then she had to start taking care of me. She was at the stage where she could start feeling like, how do I show up for myself while not caring for anyone else? Right? She's almost at parenting adult age, but that's a whole other space. I might give her that one too, but she was definitely there. And then I was eight, and I was left with her. So now she's all the way back in the who influences what I think, feel and believe and behave stage me, while also trying to figure out how not to be a caregiver with her oldest. When you look at the trajectory of that for her, she never got to that final moment where she could really evaluate her parenting, and then began to start sharing with her kids and even with me. And so when we don't look at different types of families, we don't get to see how this actually does affect how we're able to show up. If I don't know where I'm supposed to be in my caregiver role, and my kid is needing a lot out of me. It's difficult because I don't know, should I be giving you this? Should I be giving you that? Should I do this? Should I where am I off a lot, and then your kid is still standing there, like, what are you gonna do?

Casey O'Roarty 33:54
Yeah, this is so useful, because I do know that I have quite a few grandparents that listen to the podcasts that have found themselves raising, you know, a second generation of kids. And you know, something that I've said, that I think about too, is, you know, if we haven't kind of recognized in those early years or in the childhood years, that personal growth and development is a lifelong journey, and that our kids really prompt our opportunity to grow. Then it's really difficult, you know, we get that extra that second, like, hey, enroll now during the teen years, because, again, we're it feels like this confrontation of personality, and so if you haven't done the work early on, then it feels like the teen years. You have a choice of doing your own work, reflection, deep dive, or resisting it, which, oh, I mean, it's hard enough being in the doing your work. Role versus I can't even imagine resisting the personal growth. I mean, I don't see how you can have relationship with your kids if you're not willing to take a look. And so I would love to know, like, how does the teen years break down? Is there like, an earlier teens? Because, like, 13, it's 1415, okay, because the early teens I've experienced in a witness do feel a little bit different than the older teen. Totally kind of a shit show, actually, totally.

Mercedes Samudio 35:30
And I'll say this parental identity helps to deal with teen years. If you're developing it, you get to a space where you can role play with your child. At this space. It doesn't become this, I need to be telling you. It becomes, how do I show you? So you can go and try it, and then we come back and we talk about it. This is because right after that, they're young adults, and they're out on their own. Anyway, regardless, I always tell people, once someone becomes legally an adult, have fun. Have fun trying to get them to do what you want them to do, because they're legally wherever you live. Once they become a legal adult, they actually do have jurisdiction of their life legally. And that changes a lot of things, right? Because I can leave wherever I want. I can go wherever I want. I'm legally based on wherever I am in the world. I'm legally able to do that. So it changes the dynamic. And so if you spend a lot of the teen years not role playing, a lot of those young adult years become really scary, because it's like, I don't know what they're gonna do. I don't know what their brain is. Like, I fool I hope they got it. It's a scarier, scarier.

Casey O'Roarty 36:29
So when you say role playing, I have a question about that, because often I'll talk about being curious as a way to develop their own reflective conversation. You know, I want to ask questions that eventually I'm hoping my kids will be asking themselves about different situations. So is that, yes, part of this role play? It is, it is. It's a huge part of me. I'm so smart. You are. I

Mercedes Samudio 36:54
agree. I never agree with that, because that's part of it, right? You're asking them questions to reflect. You're not saying do this like you were when they were kids. You're saying, Does that make sense to do that right now? Is that a good idea? Yeah, right. Well, I'm

Casey O'Roarty 37:06
gonna go ahead. Turn out, yeah, let's

Mercedes Samudio 37:08
see, figure it out, right? And so you are, but also they're bringing you stuff too, right? Sometimes it's direct, hey, I have a question about this. Sometimes it's indirect. They come and throw all their stuff around. You're like, something's going on. And so that's a great time to role play something's going on. I don't want to talk about it. I do. How are we going to deal with this? Because this won't be the only time in their life where they're going to have to talk to someone even though they don't want to. Yeah, right. And so sit down through since you've been so vulnerable, I'll kind of play around with you've talked about it's hard to sit in emotions. And so role playing is sitting in emotion. Because sometimes the role play is I know exactly what to say to them. Sometimes the role plays just kind of sitting there and be like, I actually don't know either. Let's figure it out. What would you have said there? But I'm gonna say it this, okay, that might have caused this to happen, so maybe not. But I don't know what the other alternative is, right? You're really just sitting with them. And so the question for teen years is, what tools do I have that I can give to others to support their human journey?

Casey O'Roarty 38:08
I have so many tools. There you go. And let me be real with my kids. They're like enough of your tools, mom,

Mercedes Samudio 38:16
there you go. But here's the deal, in order for someone to say Enough of your tools, that must mean they know you have it. That's actually good. I teach people all the time, listen to how people talk about you, because whether it's nice or not, it means they know something. If it's right, then they can Okay, you have tools. They might not want them, but you have that. Yeah, but tools is a very generic term for what do you have that you'd like to give to others to support their human journey? And I put others for a reason, because oftentimes parents think my kids, my kids, my family, my home, but you often have tools for others that you give to other people all the time. Right now, we're talking right and you're sharing your stuff and I'm sharing my stuff. We're giving each other tools. We're both doing parent work. There's definitely been times I've said something, but oh, I've definitely listen to your podcast now. Podcast now. So you do have tools to help others. You have tools to help other parent educators. You have tools to help other mothers of teens. You have tools to help other women in your community, like you have tools to be a wife, right? You have tools to be a daughter or a sister, right? And so what tools do you have that help others to support their human journey? It's why the role playing becomes so integral. You're not just supporting your child, you're supporting a human who's got to go out there in the world, right? So they'll bring you human stuff. My friend is this, well, that's a human thing. What do I have any tools for a human thing like that? Now my kid is dealing with it. It's, do I have any tools for a human journey like that? Have I ever heard of that? So if you have, you say, Well, tell me more about it. Because, you know, I used to work in a rape center, and so I might be able to have some resources. I didn't know you worked at a rape center. Yeah, when I was like 15, I call I volunteered there. What just happened? Instead of me being scared that my child might be dealing with sexual stuff, I'm listening and realizing I actually have tools for this. So. Let me listen right?

Casey O'Roarty 40:00
Because you do,

yeah, and the other thing I love about what you just did is you're also sending this message of, I'm not gonna freak out like I can talk about this with you. I'm here for you. And when I think about tools too, is the role play, also the modeling? Sure is that also modeling inside of that, because I know, for me, sometimes the best tool is don't talk or ask permission to give an opinion, right? And those are the things that really I know for my kids, the feedback I've gotten from my kids are that's when I'm the most useful, because you're right. I mean, 16 and 19, the kids have my number. They know what I'm all about. They know their mom isms Right. Like I don't need to say the things I want to say. My husband would probably say the same thing. Actually, he has recently. I don't need to say what I want to say for my people to know what I think, right, like it's there, and so what I'm hearing you, and I love this second part of the sentence, to support them on their human journey, because our human journey is not about getting lectures and getting told what to do all the time. Sometimes our human journey is about being seen and being witnessed and being heard. And I like that and the allowing of the experience. And so that's really powerful. Yeah, I really

Mercedes Samudio 41:34
like that too, because it's making me reflect on some of my human journey moments over the past couple of months. What I'll say about that is it's making me realize that it's not just part of the human journey to be seen, heard and felt, but it's also part of it to find the people who you want to do that to. And that's something I've been really sitting with as I work with parents, because they're like, I don't know who to go to. And I'm like, Well, who do you want to go to? Like, well, my pastor. And I'm like, that's fine. Oh, yeah, you know. And so it's like that idea. It's not that I just want to be seen and heard, but I want someone who actually knows or who understands this to see and hear me about this, because it might be my husband, it also might be my pastor, and also maybe my girlfriend, and also might be this podcast where I'm like, Hey, I just like talking to Casey, and this is what I needed today, right? But I just that expansiveness too, of like, what do you really need right now? And that's why I like that question. Of, I think my kid needs this, but if you say, Well, what do you need? Well, I'm trying to see the number to this cool, right? Such

Casey O'Roarty 42:27
a great question. What do you need? So simple, right? But I

Mercedes Samudio 42:32
think that's what happens when we're looking to be seen and heard. It's not just that we want someone to hear us or see us or experience us. We hope we're being experienced by someone who understands. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 42:41
right, yeah. That's where it gets kind of tricky, yes, because what if we don't understand? Like, because sometimes, especially during adolescence, and I've been called out on this, you know, I've got, my daughter has shared freely on the podcast about her mental health, struggles with anxiety and depression, and I have never been inside of those cages like I'm extroverted. I mean, I have my stuff so, you know, but I'm really extroverted. She's really introverted. And so when she says, You don't understand, she's right. But even inside of that, I get to say, I don't know what this experience feels like, and I'm happy to sit with you and listen. So yeah, I mean, that's kind of the best I can do in that moment. FYI,

Mercedes Samudio 43:29
that's role playing. So oftentimes I think parents think the role playing has to be the positive stuff. So I pro play the nice way to talk to someone. You also get to role play how hard it is to be nice. Sometimes you also get to room play how hard it is to know when you don't know and to sit when you can't sit and understand when you really don't want to understand. Today, yeah, I tell parents, is a funny thing. You roleplay that whether you want to, so you might as well lean into it. You're gonna snap at them whether you want to or not, so you might as well lean into you know, this is a good moment for us to figure this out, because I realized I yelled and I didn't like that, and I realized it made you come in your room. So maybe we can figure this out, because I didn't know what else to do other than Yale. But let's figure this out. That's a role play.

Casey O'Roarty 44:10
You're using the phrase role play. And when I think about role play, I think about, like, okay, hypothetical scenario. You're this person, I'm this person, but that's not actually what you mean. You're really just talking about these real life interactions where we get to sit inside of, you know, a way of being with our teen, our child, that is an example of a positive kind of healthy is that what? Yeah, okay. And

Mercedes Samudio 44:37
it is role playing, because you do start playing roles with your kid, whether you want to or not. And so you do it without knowing your kids will come to you and you'll play lecturer, or you'll play teacher, or you'll got it, like the wise knowing expert who knows everything. And it's

Casey O'Roarty 44:52
like, that's my favorite, right? That one, right?

Mercedes Samudio 44:55
And so you are doing it, and that's why I tell it. You're got it. You might as well lean in. You're already doing it. You already decide what hat you want to wear. When your kid comes in and says, No, I have to deal with this, you're like, Alright, who am I going to be today? Right? Got it? Your parents say that too. There's a whole thing about it on social media before the pandemic, and it was like, you know, go to Dan. It's like, one thing, go to mom, and she's like, all these things. So we make fun of it, but it's true. We do as parents, decide who we're going to be. We're going to be the cook into this, and that into that, into that, and that into this. And most people can handle all that for a short period of time, but you can't do that for all 20 years of your child living in your house. It's a lot,

Casey O'Roarty 45:32
oh my gosh, they won't, you know, and that's kind of bringing it back to these roles like that's where I mean, if we ultimately want relationship with our grown children, but we're stuck in questioning, who am I as a human, there's not a lot of room for a grown relationship to happen. So in your work, when you work with a family, a parent is kind of stuck in the childhood place, and they've got a 16 year old who's, you know, doing what 16 year olds do? How do you support them in moving forward so that they can be where their 16 year old needs them to be? What does that journey look like? That's

Mercedes Samudio 46:18
what I do in my intensives. That's what we do the whole day, we talk a lot about what keeps us there. So when we go back to childhood, right? It's about who or what influences me, right? What I think when I feel it's about me, oftentimes parents would do kind of where you were, where it's like, well, my kid, my kid, I'm like, they're not the only people who influence you. Who else did? Oh, well, my mom. And okay, and you start noticing, and then I say, who else influences you? Oh, well, I listened to this podcast. Okay, so it looks like you got a lot of influence. You got positive. You got not so you got your key telling you all the time, right? So let's work through how those influences affect you, because then we start to talk about the rest of it, because that influences how you decide to show up in the world, which is your dream, then it influences the tools you actually even acknowledge you have to share, right? Because I don't know who influences me, and I'm not aware of it, and it's constantly bombarding me, if it makes a link for you, I started off with childhood, with shame proof parenting. Shame proof parenting, that philosophy came out of what influences parents, and that's what I started seeing all that shade does if I know my mom, I've had so many parents start the conversation off with my mother in law's coming over this weekend. How do I get my kids to listen to me? And I'm like, right?

Casey O'Roarty 47:33
When my kids were little and I was around my family of origin, I was like, Listen everyone. We all know that I'm gonna be a little bit weird, so just roll with it. I mean, it's visceral. It's so crazy.

Mercedes Samudio 47:44
Yes, so here's fun. I love that question, because then you go into your tween self of, how do I demonstrate who I am to those around me? I tell my family that we go to my family of origin. I'm gonna be weird. That's how I do it. I let them know. Just know that mom is probably going to be like really different for this two days that were there. So just know, there you go. So what's fun about this model is that as people start to talk, you realize you're answering these questions. You're just not paying attention to how it's influencing your parental identity. You might even be doing certain things. You'd be surprised that if you've made it to teen years, you're probably already role playing, just not in a way that feels good. It feels like your kid is putting you in roles that they need you to be in, but you're not able to. So you need to be the lecturer today. Tell me what I'm supposed to do. Why don't you understand me? You need to stand up straight. I'm trying to talk to you. You're just like, I'm gonna fall over because there's your identity that hasn't gotten to a place where you can handle another adult or an emerging adult talk to you,

Casey O'Roarty 48:46
yeah? And I wonder too, if there's like, oh my gosh, I'm looking at the time, but I'm like, But I'm wondering too, like, do you find people getting stuck in the childhood, everywhere, developmental place because of their attachment to influence, which can easily be mistaken for this idea of control.

Mercedes Samudio 49:07
That's a good one. That's a great link. And I think influence is different for everyone. So some people enjoy the influence. Sometimes it's too hard. So I've definitely come to parents where they realize how much they influence their kid, and it's scary, yeah, because, like, I don't want to be that much of an influence on any human's life. And human's life. And so then you have to work on that. So who influences? Well, I influence too much. And so then you're working through, okay, how do you feel okay influencing another human being? How do you feel okay with that? Right? And so we realized that in these spaces, everyone really has these different vacillating kind of, you know, spaces of like, some people really like being able to influence their kid. I talked to one mom, and she had this beautiful idea about what she wanted to be a mom she was pregnant. She was like, I just want to influence a child to be a better student of the world. Like, that's a beautiful way to think about it right at this point in your life, because that is what she wanted to do. I. Right, that she wanted to influence another person who could be a student of the world in a healthy way. Okay, that's a good thing to kind of have as your goal. Like you're not trying to make them a mini me or make them you just want them to be a good person when they're down to the world. That's a different influence, other than someone who says, I'm pregnant because I never thought I'd have a kid and I needed to have one real quick. I'm pregnant because real quick I'm saying it like people have these ideas, right? Or I did it because my family wanted me to, and everyone was waiting for me to really have a kid. Or the person I'm dating wanted that, or I was ready, but it didn't come when I was ready. So it came after years, years of trying, and it's finally here, and I refuse to be angry out of it, kids are hard, no matter how much you waited for them to be there, you know? Yeah. So these are all things that people enter into the parental space with real stuff, and then we say to them, Well, you can't be like that. You have to raise a kid. What's a kid? A human? What am I? A

Casey O'Roarty 50:59
humanity? Human that is in development, the human becoming, right? I love that phrase, yeah. So that's

Mercedes Samudio 51:05
the gist of it. If I can, kind of, like, give you a sentence of it, the parental identity development model is really about helping us understand that there's still a human developing whilst they're raising a human. It's still happening. I haven't stopped, but there's a different piece of me that's developing that I haven't developed before because I haven't had to care like this for someone

Casey O'Roarty 51:25
before. Will you let us know when you have a handy handout? Yes, nice infographic. Everyone

Mercedes Samudio 51:32
who's listening it's in the process. You will get it. If you're like my head is swimming, what is she talking about? Good. You're in the right spot. But yes, yes, yes, that is coming. I'm hoping by the end of this year I will have more to share and give about it. Yes,

Casey O'Roarty 51:49
it makes me feel like, you know when you have a word on the tip of your tongue and it's right there, like, that's kind of how I'm so excited for you to continue to develop this and to continue to create resources around it, because it's so powerful, and feeling it like as that experience of, Oh, it's on the I get it, I get it, I get it, oh, I don't get it, but it's right there, but I get it. So we'll have to just have more conversations about this, because it's so cool, and I'm really glad that you spent time with me today and shared this, and just congratulations on such amazing work, and to be bringing it out to the world. It's, I'm sure, already having a huge impact.

Mercedes Samudio 52:24
Hopefully. I'm hoping it is. The intensives have been really cool, and it's a really nice ground for me to see how it's landing. And no one has said this isn't landing. Everyone's like, oh, okay, yeah. Like, okay, this is landing.

Casey O'Roarty 52:39
Will you share? Where can people find you and follow your work and check in on one of these intensives? And so

Mercedes Samudio 52:45
shaking parenting is the best place to start. The link to the intensives is there, and I will share that link with you, because it's like, you know, one of those wonky little links, like Bitly. And so I'll share that with you, and you can put it with the show notes. If people are interested perfect in looking at the intensives and seeing more

Casey O'Roarty 52:59
about that. Okay, are you still doing the parenting couch? It's

Mercedes Samudio 53:04
there. The family couch is there. The family couch is still there. On YouTube, all the old episodes are there. I was honest about earlier. I've just really spent some time really going on the personal development journey and being okay with, yeah, pumping out content, and just being like, well, I'm okay.

Casey O'Roarty 53:19
And the good news is you pumped out content so all that content continues to live. So listeners go to shaneprofarting.com you'll find all of the amazing things that Mercedes is doing instead of taking care of herself. Lucky us. Is there anything else that you want to share before I ask you my final question, no

Mercedes Samudio 53:40
matter where you are in your proto identity journey, you can always work through it. It's never too late. If you just found out about this and your kids are like 40, you can still talk to them about you can still go through it. It doesn't matter. Yes, oh,

Casey O'Roarty 53:53
I love that. I love that. What does joyful courage mean to you?

Mercedes Samudio 53:57
I like that. I think it means that you take stock of everything as you move into your courage. So you don't just pay attention to the positive, but you pay attention to what you survived and what you went through as well. And you kind of use that as this, like joyful courage. I feel good that I'm moving forward despite

Casey O'Roarty 54:14
Yeah. Thank you.

Mercedes Samudio 54:16
Thank you. Bye.

Casey O'Roarty 54:24
Oh, yay. Is such a good interview. I love Mercedes. There's so much to sit with that she shared with us. Thank you so much for listening. I adore you. I adore this community. I'm so happy to be bringing you conversations that matter. I am just really honored and humbled by the feedback that I get from all of you that you love this show. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, will you do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and leave a review or screenshot that you're listening to the podcast put on your social media or go. Grab the link to this show and text it to a friend and say, oh my gosh, I listened to this. It's so good. You should too, your reviews, your sharing helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by even more parents, and then we get to make an even bigger impact. Thank you so much to the team at sproutable. I love you ladies. Thank you for your back end help and your encouragement. Thanks to Rowan for doing the show notes. Thanks to [email protected] for your amazing editing. As always, I am so honored to you, for you listeners, that you show up each week and you listen. We're all doing the best we can in the moment that includes you. I see you. Have a beautiful week. I'll be back you.

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