Dina Emser, Positive Discipline Lead Trainer, Breaks Down Encouragement

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Hey, joyful courage fans, welcome to episode 38 of the joyful courage parenting Podcast. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so excited about this show, and I'm noticing that I say that every week, but it's just always so exciting. My guest today is a woman named Dina Emser. Dina is an author and a speaker as well as a leadership coach, and she has served 1000s of professionals through her trainings, individual coaching and coaching groups over the last decade. She's a recovering school teacher and principal. She's certified as a professional co active coach, and has worked with companies of all sizes and individuals as well. Dina believes strongly that people are uniquely talented and that as they are encouraged and empowered with strategies to bring more of their unique abilities to the world, everyone benefits. And you know, I really appreciate that Dina sees the value of that statement in the parenting world. So I'm going to read it again. She believes strongly that people are uniquely talented, and that as they are encouraged and empowered with strategies to bring more of their unique abilities to the world, everyone benefits. Isn't that so true when we do better, when we parents on the path are in active practice of doing better, of feeling better inside of our bodies, through mindfulness, through awareness and awakening, everybody benefits. So I'm thrilled again, Dina has, uh, agreed to come on the show. She's a mentor of mine and one of my teachers, and has been my coach as well on my journey. And we're going to talk about encouragement. You've heard me talk about encouragement a lot on the podcast, and we're going to make some distinctions about what exactly encouragement means, because it's not just the words that we use, it's really the way that we show up for the people around us, the way that we hold space for others to show up. And as parents, you know, the more encouraging we can be, the more likely it is that our kids will stand up and step in to that space and feel encouraged. And guess what, when we feel encouraged, we are just at our best. So anyway, I'm excited for you to listen to this podcast and to get to know Dina. I love her dearly, and I'm thrilled that you get to know her and what she's all about through this podcast conversation. So let's meet Dina.

So Dina Emser, welcome to the joyful courage parenting podcast.

Dina Emser 2:58
Thank you. Casey o'rourkey, my pleasure to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 3:01
I am so glad that you wanted to come on the show. Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Dina Emser 3:10
Well, I do a lot of training for positive discipline. I do coaching many times of parents who already know a little bit about the program positive discipline, or teachers. So when I go into a school, often, I end up coaching the leadership team about how to bring positive discipline on as a program. I am a wife. I am a mom of two grown kids who were raised in a PD home and went to a PD school through the eighth grade. I have been both their teacher and their school principal. So that's been an interesting dynamic to have with your own children, and I am a new grandma of a 19 month old baby girl. Oh, yay, yeah. So it's fun because I'm getting to see the PD cycle coming around again as I'm watching my daughter parent her

Casey O'Roarty 3:59
daughter next generation. How fabulous for your daughter to be able to tap into that model that was alive. That's amazing.

Dina Emser 4:08
It's pretty darn cool. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 4:10
cool. So today, we're going to talk about encouragement. And encouragement has come up a ton on the podcast, and we talk, you know, it's one of the pillars of positive discipline when we're training parents through positive discipline. And I think that people, when I'm out and about and in conversation, in casual conversation, I hear the word encouragement, and then it is coupled with with something that we in the PD world would refer to as praise. So when you're referring to encouragement, and in this conversation, what, how would you define encouragement?

Dina Emser 4:49
I define encouragement as a place where hearts connect. So you know, the the root of the word encourage is courage, and the root of the word courage is heart. So. I sort of think of it in my mind, as my heart reaching out to your heart. I think that thing that's helpful in that is that my heart doesn't have an agenda for you other than your agenda for yourself. And where parents get mixed up between praises and encouragement, in my opinion, one of the places that hooks them is that they believe that if they encourage their child via praise, that their child will do what they want them to do. So in other words, it's always hooked to that parental agenda separate from just encouraging or empowering your child to be capable.

Casey O'Roarty 5:38
Yeah, when I talk about it in my classes, I often will say just something similar to that, that this isn't about manipulating kids into obedience or the behavior that you want to see. This is about holding space for them so that they can recognize their own skills and their own traits, and also that it's a way, you know, we talk about giving our kids self esteem. When I think about encouragement, I think of them growing their sense of self and growing their self worth. And I love that I

Dina Emser 6:15
do too. And what I notice from years and years and years of experience working with kids is that often, well, people, it doesn't. It doesn't just stop with kids, that often we don't really understand our impact, and we may underplay the importance of what we bring to the table. So when we notice with kids, it doesn't even have to be anything you perceive as necessarily a positive thing. So an example might be with kids in my math class in eighth grade, it was like, Guys, I noticed that you spend a lot of time looking out the window, and then you're concerned, upset, angry when you've got homework to bring home with you. And so it's almost like noticing a part of someone's process that helps them sort of see themselves in the world the way they actually are. So it's like bringing truth without bringing fault.

Casey O'Roarty 7:09
Yeah, I didn't hear any judgment. Yeah, that's the trick. Yeah,

Dina Emser 7:14
that's the trick. So you and I both know the power of simply noticing people love to be noticed that often kids, unless we tell them, they don't even realize that they're having a positive impact on our lives, like what they bring to us is really, really important, but they won't know unless we tell them,

Casey O'Roarty 7:32
yeah. So when we think about the youngest kids, right, when we think, I know that a lot of my listeners have kids under five, and as they are navigating those waters, which can be exhausting at times, as they're navigating those waters, what does encouragement sound like with a two or a three or a four year old? I

Dina Emser 7:58
think it often sounds like I could really use your help. Would you like to do this, or do this, or simply, I noticed yesterday, when I was with my daughter and my granddaughter that, now, get this, she's 19 months old, and my daughter had this rather sizable bag that had, you know, like the little canvas bag with the straps, and she asked her if she would like to carry it. You should have seen her working to get that thing on her shoulder. It clearly wasn't the first time it had happened, but I think you know the whole deal with encouragement is we want to make sure our kids know how capable they are, and to be doing and saying things that support that sense of I am capable. I can be helpful and contribute to others. So where we get caught up is that everyone's so busy it's easier just to do it and to do too much of it. And I think with young kids especially, we're training them for future. So we want to make sure that we're encouraging them by allowing them to try

Casey O'Roarty 8:58
and before we before I hit record we were talking about, you know, there's the encouragement that we do right, the language, the words, yeah, and then there's the encouraging way

Speaker 1 9:09
that we be, yes, yeah. So, and

Casey O'Roarty 9:13
I talk a lot of, you know, I talk this is not new to my listeners, because I often am talking about our way of being and who you want to be, and really exploring those qualities, because that's when things become available. So talk a little bit about that encouraging way of being. So

Dina Emser 9:31
I think the encouraging way of being is noticing that it's not what we say but how we say it. It's not what we do, but how we do it or don't do it. So I think the not overdoing would be a way of being. It's like to give yourself pause before you over, say, or overdo anything. So that might be a way that you could kind of be. It would be simply to stop, to push the pause button for yourself. Both on your face, because your kids will be very adept at reading your expression, so sort of practicing honestly in front of the mirror, the neutral face, the soft eyes, the lack of hookedness.

Uh, not over fixing or over providing solutions for kids, but standing back and just remembering to give them time to process before you jump in. So honestly, case, I think a lot of the being thing is just not doing what we typically do with the speed with which we usually do it right,

Casey O'Roarty 10:48
right? Because there's that, I think that a lot of parents get trapped into that sense of urgency. Yeah, right. And I've got to do something right now. I've got to fix this, I've got to stop this. I've got to respond to this. I have to react to this. And then that fear and projecting into the future creeps in, and it just is a disaster inside the head, right?

Dina Emser 11:12
It's a disaster inside the head. Yeah, I remember a huge moment for me, when our first was just an infant when we went in to see the Minister of our church, and we were getting ready to do the sort of the presentation service when she was about six weeks old. And then the minister said to me, now, Tina, remember, this child does not belong to you. And I remember looking at him, and the voice in my head was like, buddy, I'm pretty sure she does. You know, I had just given birth to this person. But the idea that as a parent, we really do consider that our children are people of this planet, and they don't belong to us. They aren't here to relive our lives a second time. They're here to be put on their own paths, for their own learning. So I think if we can, as parents, kind of unhook ourselves from that fear, that agenda of making sure our kids do or be XYZ when they grow up, it really helps us be encouraging of the people that they actually are.

Casey O'Roarty 12:15
That I know it makes me kind of weepy. I

Dina Emser 12:18
know it may really pride buckets. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 12:21
mean, and I was, and I've been thinking about that. You know, lately, my kids are getting older, and my daughter's going to be 13 next week, and and I'm excited for them and their whole life ahead of them. And, you know, recognizing that we're just, we're just caregivers right for a while, and doing our best and helping them build skills. And ultimately, yeah, it's their life. It's

Dina Emser 12:47
their life, and we're here to certainly help be a guide. But you know, it's a really relatively short period of time, yeah, yeah, yeah. So us keeping the faith in them that they are capable lovely people put on the planet to do something that we don't even really know yet what it is, but just to assume that it's going to be loving and it may not be great by anybody else's standards, but guess what? It doesn't even matter. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:17
and I love how all of those tools, you know, especially as we start playing with them in those early years, all of those tools of validating their feelings and giving limited choices and taking time to train them and inviting them into cooperation and chores, all of those things are basically sending that message that you can do it. You are capable. And all of that falls underneath this beautiful umbrella of encouragement. Not only that, but it's also, you know, building relationship with the adult, because who doesn't want to be around somebody who believes in them absolutely? Yeah, and it's, it's interesting too, because I run into a lot of parents who want a quick fix, like they want it fixed now. They want to tell their child to listen one time and have them be, you know, fantastic listeners forever and and I have to remind them, especially again, back to these early years, it's really building foundation, and you are a broken record, and that's okay. It's no fault of the child or of you. It's just the way that it is during that period of time, and even as they get older, just because you've apparently, maybe just at my house, but just as you tell them to do something one time, doesn't mean you know they're gonna jump up and do it. And I noticed, especially with my kids, the more discouraged they feel, the more discouraging my way of being is, meaning my facial expression, my body posture, my voice tone, yeah, you know, it falls apart. And it's so funny that we feel like, well, now I'm now I'm just getting mad. So you better just hustle. Do it like that somehow, should create a situation where they are moving it along. And I think that in some cases, on the short term, it can look like that, but in the long term, so not helpful. And not to mention the mom guilt that shows up after you've treated somebody else like that.

Dina Emser 15:21
Yeah, you know, it kind of reminds me of the whole jungle activity that we do. You know that kids, when they're discouraged, they're or when they misbehave, they're really discouraged. So, I mean, you know, just a little microcosm of that, when your child doesn't do what you want them to do, and they're feeling really discouraged, then we need to remember, ah, something's underfoot here. Something's either been miscommunicated or misunderstood or superseded our last conversation. It's a great time to get curious, so I notice you still haven't followed through with that. So what's going on? Tell me what you're thinking, you know, and when we can just catch ourselves in time. Oh, don't we feel good?

Casey O'Roarty 16:02
Yeah, well, and that's the biggest piece, right as the adults,

Unknown Speaker 16:09
you know,

Casey O'Roarty 16:10
as the adult be catching the discouragement in our body and recognizing that it's a clue and a red flag rather than and my son and I call it the emotional freight train, you know, rather than hanging on and letting it take us away

Unknown Speaker 16:28
or go completely off the rails, right,

Casey O'Roarty 16:31
why not wreck, you know, the first step is recognizing we're on it and then deciding to get off. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important for parents too, to be honest with their kids, just, you know, like, wow, I this is how I'm feeling right now. I bet you're feeling this way too, or I'm wondering if, if you're feeling discouraged, if you're feeling frustrated and angry,

Dina Emser 16:52
I had Casey, this most huge thing show up in one of my very last trainings that I just did in China, like in November, where we were doing parents helping parents, and I was training everybody, and they were in their small groups. And you know how that is, you walk around, and it's just so such wonderful energy. And at the end, when we asked questions, one group was so frustrated with the volunteer, because she wouldn't choose anything. She's like, No, I've tried all those things, and she was standing her ground, and I could tell her feet were dug in. And I started to feel sort of like, well, that's not the rule. The rule is, just choose one, right? And the group was kind of dug in. And so I caught myself, and I went over to the group, and I got down on one knee by this woman, and I took her hand in mine, and I said, Wow, you're feeling really discouraged, because you've tried every single one of these things, and you know from your own experience that nothing works. And she started to cry. And it was so interesting, because as soon as I acknowledged her place, she immediately just sort of melted. And I thought to myself, you know this, this is the thing we just have to remember that sometimes, to be encouraging, all you really have to do is pay attention, yeah, and be willing to state what it is you're guessing or you're seeing or you're imagining that that person might be feeling in that moment, once they're understood, even in iota. It's just amazing how behavior changes, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 18:29
yeah. And as they get older, right? So we talked about early years, and as they move older into school, age and adolescence, you know, encouragement becomes ever more important, and that encouraging way of being can be really challenged,

Dina Emser 18:47
really challenged, because the ante is upped. Right? They're driving, they're they have access to things that are much more powerful, and it gets very difficult as a parent to stand your ground and to keep in mind what you know to be true about your own children, yeah, and not just get scared. Well.

Casey O'Roarty 19:09
And I was talking recently, um, a couple episodes ago, I had I did a live parent coaching. So I had a parent come on and we did a little parent coaching. Was very exciting, and we talked about that concept of standing your ground, and the difference between, you know, standing in your kindness and your firmness and as opposed to standing ready for a fight, right? Because those are two really different invitations. And I think that for a lot of parents, when they think firmness, they think, you know, football player like, I'm ready for anything you want to give me. And that's not necessarily what is encouraging, what is going to move us in the direction. That we want to go with our

Dina Emser 20:00
kids, not that kind of firmness, yeah? But I was reminded at last think tank that it's really firmness that helps all of us feel safe, yeah? Talk about help. Well, it's like the structure is what keeps all of us, sort of the boundary piece is the thing that keeps everybody safe, so you can communicate the boundaries in a very kind tone of voice, right? But we always think it's the kindness thing that that makes people feel safe, but it's really not, if we were only kind. Remember what happens? Yeah, there are no boundaries. No. There is no structure. Everybody just does what everyone else wants to do.

Casey O'Roarty 20:42
Yeah, chaos is always the first word that comes up when I have parents. Think about a home with a lot of kindness and no firmness, exactly,

Dina Emser 20:51
but the firmness piece could be the structure of a weekly family meeting. You know? It could be anything that you have in place in advance that helps people know this, and no farther,

Casey O'Roarty 21:03
yeah. And in the moment, firmness can sound like, I know you're disappointed we can't go to the park

Dina Emser 21:11
Exactly, Exactly, yep,

Casey O'Roarty 21:14
and then and move on into something else, right, exactly, and somewhere along the lines, yeah, and somewhere it's, you know, and in this conversation with this parent, you know, I know in the back of her mind, there was this conversation around, yeah, but, but then the tantrum starts, and somehow firmness has to avoid tantrums, which

Dina Emser 21:35
firmness can't avoid tantrums? Nope, you

Casey O'Roarty 21:40
know, tantrums are, you know, a part of kids being overwhelmed with emotion,

Dina Emser 21:45
and often it's, it's just a communication that I that exactly, that it's like, I don't have the words for it right now, but I don't have much choice but to communicate the way I'm feeling this way, right?

Casey O'Roarty 21:55
And when we talk about teenagers, it might be door slamming and foot stomping and, Hey, okay,

Dina Emser 22:01
yep. And in our case, it was getting arrested, but just once, yeah, yeah, so. But I remember, I remember feeling like, really, literally, the ground was just shaking beneath our feet, and that we had to kind of come together as a couple to decide how we were going to handle it. And I don't know if I've ever told you this story case, or if you've read the babemba tribe. Do you remember reading that South African fable?

Casey O'Roarty 22:28
Well, there's a couple, but is the tell me, remind me of that one.

Dina Emser 22:31
Well, the brief story is that when anybody in the tribe made a mistake, they all stopped and they got together in a circle, and the person who'd made the mistake got in the middle. And of course, whenever you tell that to teachers or parents, they immediately think the worst, right? It's like, oh, you're gonna pick up a stone and throw it. But it's no it's like, everybody stops, and they retail every story they can think of where that person did something good or kind or true or generous, and they don't stop until everybody's had an opportunity to share, and then once that's done, they pretty much welcome that individual back to the tribe. Now that's both kindness and firmness when you think about it, because the kindness piece is sort of remembering all of those things, but I think the firmness message is we see who you are, and this is the person we're welcoming the best part of you back into the tribe. So my husband suggested that we do that with our son when he got into this mischief in high school. So our friends came over and we did that, and it was, like, incredible. I mean, I don't think anybody who was there will ever forget that night, you know, and it completely turned things around. And when I asked him a couple of weeks later, it's like, what was that like for you? And he said, Mom, I had no idea people would remember any of that stuff from when I was a little kid, you know. I had no idea it made any difference, you know? And that's where I think this impact thing comes in. It's like our kids don't automatically know that people are noticing, unless we have a structure for telling them, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 24:15
And because I know my listeners, I know my parents out there, I know that they like language, and so some of the what I'm hearing you say, I've heard you say just that very first piece that we teach to parents, which is, I notice with no judgment, right? Just descriptive encouragement, just what we're noticing, what we're seeing. I notice you put your shoes by the door when you came in, or I noticed your towels on the floor. And the thing I love about that is, and even, like, the story with your son and the woman in China, yeah, like, the power of being seen is so incredible, right, especially in the world today, where everybody's so distracted, yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful. But then we talk about that appreciative encouragement, so just, you know, recognizing when our the child's done something that was helpful, right? I appreciate and we use the language of, I appreciate that you put your dishes in the dishwasher. Yeah, I haven't said that lately. I don't know what's happening. Things are falling apart over here. And then talk about empowering, encouragement, because I think that that's also one that it's really important to remember, it's not about manipulating. Yeah.

Dina Emser 25:36
So this is, this is why I want to speak, especially to your audience, if their kids are young, because you want to really be paying attention now to your kids process, because later on, when they get discouraged, you're going to be able to replay one of those little visual memories that you have and remind your kids. So for an example, my son would get really discouraged with homework or school stuff, and I would say, but I remember the time you spent an hour and a half on the driveway with that basketball teaching yourself how to dribble. And what I know about you is that when something's important to you, you move heaven and earth to get it done. So I wonder what would make this homework that important? Yeah, so just having those stories in your mind will help you. When your kids get older and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm Edwardson, and I'm really scared this homework is important, but it's only important to me as the mom, and if it's not important to him, it isn't going to get done, so somehow or other, I need to be able to speak to him about what I know to be true about him. Yeah, faith I have in him, and

Casey O'Roarty 26:50
I love I love that that also gives an opportunity to to actually give language to the qualities that we're seeing. So the persistence, the perseverance, I know there's been a lot of hours logged in at our dining room table with Legos, so I tap into that as well, and I

and also, what was I just thinking? Oh, so there's been times like a great example too, you know, I know we've all had kids who, when it comes time to clean their room, they flop out down on the floor, and I just can't do it. However, we've had some mornings where my son will, for whatever reason, be so motivated before he comes down that he'll like, he's like a like the Tasmanian devil just zipping through that room and and it, yep, you know. And so I remind him of that, and then there's other times where I, you know, we call it creating missions. So just the other night, he was dragging his feet, and I said, Well, let's, let's create some missions here, right? So let's just start with what's easy. Find all the sweatshirts to hang up. Let's do that first and see what happens. Right? Yeah, and I said, because we used to do this when he was really little, this whole missions, what's your next mission? And when I said it, he's 10 now he was so, he was like, oh, yeah, missions. And so that playfulness piece, I think, is also really encouraging, and it's a way to connect through lightness, because we're always so everything can get so heavy. So we forget, yeah, that lightness is really powerful.

Dina Emser 28:49
Or case, I think we just forget what it's like to be a child. Yeah, you know that kids like fun, they like lightness, they like creativity, they like adventure. So if we know that and we can remember it, then it's perfect to use that as an opportunity to increase motivation.

Casey O'Roarty 29:05
And what do you think about faking it? Yeah, what about faking it? Because I think sometimes, for me, I'm like, Screw fun. We need to get this stuff done. But then remembering, like, I can just step into fun, like, halfway, and it seems to, once you move there, it seems to pull you in. So I would just encourage everybody who's like, Oh, fun light, because I think that we talk about it, but I know I've written in blog posts about I'm not the playful parent. My husband is the parent who plays. I'm the parent who, you know, creates the routine charts and make sure everybody does what they're supposed to do. And I'm that parent, and so it's and I and there's guilt there, and I got a big response from people when I wrote about that, because, you know, we feel guilty that we're not more playful, and we know. The time is moving fast, and we should be enjoying every minute of this parenting journey. But you know what? Sometimes it's

Dina Emser 30:06
not possible, not possible. So, so for what, for me, what happened when you said that is like you're the safe parent, yeah, you're the one that creates the structure. You're the one that people come to when they need something and they need help and they need motivation to just keep moving on. And that's not saying anything about what your husband does or doesn't bring but you know that's really an important placeholder for you,

Casey O'Roarty 30:34
right? Thank you. Yeah, thank you for that. But also, I do notice that when I'm willing to step into play, and when I'm willing to step into fun, it's not as hard as it's not as big of a leap as it feels when I'm completely resisting it or totally and typically, you know, it's even just and I talk about this a lot, it's pulling back my shoulders and getting them out of my ears, and opening my chest, opening my heart, and just shifting in my body, posture allows for that and that. Again, it falls under that encouragement, doesn't it?

Dina Emser 31:11
It does. And you know, one of the things that is striking to me is just how much different I feel if I just remember to turn some music on, yes. So the lightness wouldn't always have to come from you. It could come from an outside source, and it could be as easy as just saying, what should we listen to while you're doing this? You know? What music would motivate us? Or,

Casey O'Roarty 31:30
yeah, and my kids just there, you feel it in your body, and it's so much easier. Oh, yeah. And they like music. We don't always want to pick the same Pandora station, but I believe that, but we found some like in the middle station. So yeah, music's amazing. So one last thing before we end, and I want to start asking all of my guests this, because it is the joyful courage parenting podcast, when you think about joyful courage, what comes to mind to you?

Dina Emser 32:06
Well, I guess, you know, I've actually thought about it a lot, just because you've that's been your handle for some time, and I I'm thinking of it. I was thinking of it last week, actually, as just a joyful heart or a joyful connection with both self and others in the world, because, you know, we were wired to be social. Yes, we're a lot happier when we're connected to people that we like, admire. You know, have tons and tons of things in common with so I think of it as you being like I think of you as joyful courage. You know that your faith is often smiling and open, and that you are very courageous about trying new things and new ways of doing things, and that your enthusiasm is often just, it's just really, really hard to resist.

Casey O'Roarty 33:04
Oh, well, thanks. Well, I really like that joyful heart. I love that. And I think too, you know, some of the work that I've been doing lately has been focusing on the I, the we, the all, and so I like that. There's the, you know, the I the My way of being, plus my way of being in relationship, and then how those relationships affect the greater world. So

Unknown Speaker 33:31
huge. Yeah, it's

Dina Emser 33:32
a huge impact case. Ah,

Casey O'Roarty 33:34
well, we're all doing the work, right, making a difference. Well, Dina, thank you so much for spending time with me today.

Dina Emser 33:43
You are so welcome. Thank you for the invitation.

Casey O'Roarty 33:45
You are welcome, and hopefully we'll have you back sometime.

Dina Emser 33:48
I would like that. Yay.

Casey O'Roarty 33:56
Oh my gosh, can you tell that? I love Dina. I love Dina. She's so amazing and inspirational and encouraging. She's a fabulous human so I hope you enjoyed that. I hope that you are taking away some commitment around how you're going to continue to show up for your kids, the language that you may or may not be ready to tweak and play with, because remember this parenting practice, right? We don't need to be super urgent. I know that urgency shows up in our bodies, and it's just not helpful. So when you notice that, remember that every moment is an opportunity, and if it shows up and you slip back into those old practices and you're less than encouraging. Remember that you are going to have many more opportunities to be an encouraging parent, to hold the space for your kids and to show up really well. All right, don't forget that. And if you loved this podcast, will you please share it? Will you tell your friends about it? Will you. Talk about the joyful courage podcast and how much you love it to the people in your life, family members, neighbors, the moms at school, whatever works for you, because I'm really hoping to grow the audience, and I can't do that without your help and without your support. So if you love it and you're thinking, how can I repay Casey for all of these amazing tools and great guests, this is how you can repay me. Share it. Tell your people about it. Okay and join us over at live in love with joyful courage, because it's a really fun place. Super supportive, encouraging, empowering tribe of people who are on the path, on the journey. So I'd love to see you there, come join us, come play. All right, and I will see you next time

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