Cathy Kawakami of Middle Ground Parenting How we help our kids by not helping them

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful courage, parenting podcast episode 29

Hey, podcast listeners, welcome back to the show. I am so excited to share my conversation today I had Kathy Kawakami on the show. She is from middle ground parenting and is a certified positive discipline parent and classroom educator and trainer through the positive discipline Association. She's a colleague and a friend of mine, and just like me, she offers trainings and support for parents, teachers, caregivers, counselors, therapists and anyone who wants an effective discipline approach that integrates social and emotional learning while reducing challenging behaviors. Today, we are going to talk about something I think that's so powerful and yet often overlooked, especially when we're in the weeds with our youngest kids, and we've got places to go and things to do and people to feed and the house to clean, and what happens. What we're going to be talking about today is all around how parents often sabotage their children's ability to develop a healthy sense of feeling capable, feeling like they have some control and some power in their life. And we're going to give some great tips through our conversation around things that you can do to create a space, both a physical environment and time that allows for our kids to develop those skills that are going to serve them in the future, skills like being able to persevere when things get hard, skills like being willing to help out when it's time to work on the house, like family housework, right? Things that as they get older, when we have swooped in and taken care of everything, they're not so excited about doing it, because, guess what? They never have to, because someone's someone has always done it for them. So I think that this conversation is going to be relevant to all of you. Enjoy it, and I'll see you on the other side.

Hi there, Kathy, welcome to the joyful courage. Parenting podcast,

Cathy Kawakami 2:42
Hi Casey, thanks for having me.

Casey O'Roarty 2:44
I am so glad that you're here. Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself, sure.

Cathy Kawakami 2:49
Well, my name is Kathy Kawakami. I am a parent educator based in San Jose, California. I have been teaching primarily positive discipline. I am a positive discipline trainer. I work with schools. I work with families. I do parent education and really helping teachers and school administrators bring this into the classroom. But my biggest teachers, I think, have been my two daughters. Have 12 and 15 year old daughters who you know, I first learned about positive discipline when they were young, and I attended a preschool that uses positive discipline philosophy, and I was fortunate enough to have some great teachers there who really helped me to understand a lot about Child Development and relationship building with my kids and understand just how to teach them the skills that I really wanted and valued, but I just could not figure out for the life of me on my own how to get what I get where I was trying to go. So I had, I was fortunate to come across some teachers when my children were very young who taught me how to do these things and that, I think, changed the whole dynamic of my family and and things I was able to do and made me feel better about myself as a parent. So I just became really, really passionate about sharing these ideas with others, because it just occurred to me, had I not found that when my children were young, I'd, you know, been in probably for a lifetime of screaming and yelling, which was what was happening before that. So I'm just really passionate about sharing these, these tools with others. And I love working with families and teachers to to implement these ideas.

Casey O'Roarty 4:34
Yeah, that just, you know, reminds me that I think we forget as this Well, absolutely we forget, as a society, how crucial that early childhood environment is, not only for the children that are being dropped off there, but also for the families who are, you know, just really early in their parenting journey. And what a gift to participate in a space that was. Educational for you as a mom,

Cathy Kawakami 5:02
absolutely and and the school that I'm, you know, I first came across this information was a what we'll call a parent cooperative school, and those schools were really set up early on as learning labs for parents, where you can actually be in the classroom with your child and and helping be a part of that learning environment so that you know you understand the developmental stages of children a little better, and you see your child how they interact and how they really how they learn, how they start to learn things, and lets you practice your skills in a real life environment. Because it's so different when you're, you know, at home with your young child, you're kind of in a bubble. You're in a bubble where, you know, there's not a lot of outside influence. And sometimes, you know, sometimes that's great. And you're, you know, life is good in the bubble. But then you go outside the bubble, and all of you these things, it's easy to blame and shame. Well, you know, this wouldn't have happened except for that kid or or this situation and things like that. But that's, that's real life, and so learning how to how to manage that, and learning those skills when your child is young is is just a great opportunity.

Casey O'Roarty 6:07
Yeah, well, and I used to it's funny, though, because I think that in the privacy of our own home, sometimes our emotions get the better of us, like I used to say when the kids were really little, if somebody commented on, Oh, you're such a great mom. I couldn't help but say things like, Well, I'm really good with an audience.

Cathy Kawakami 6:29
Don't cry on me.

Casey O'Roarty 6:34
So I'm really excited for our topic today, helping our kids to be capable by not helping them absolutely, yeah. So let's get right into it. First of all, why? And I know you speak on this topic, so I'm excited to hear about it. Why do you find this topic so important for parents? You know,

Cathy Kawakami 6:53
understanding how you're getting in the way of yourself and your own ideals, I think, is something that parents, if there's one thing you're going to kind of will help you set up the dynamic for your future parenting journey. It's really understanding how you can be helpful and not hurtful to the process. And from the time you know, kids are young, they are always making decisions about how the world works and and just deciding for themselves. You know, it kept I could do this, I am capable of doing that. That's really what you want for your kids versus, you know, I can't do this, or I need help, or I need to ask somebody or or, you know, if Mom and Dad always step in on me or do things for me, maybe I'm just not capable and being aware of that thought process that gets created in children when they're very young, that it can be really eye opening so that parents can allow their children to have some of that struggle. That's really necessary. It's really necessary so that they can they can learn to do things on their own. They have more motivation and and really, so they learn to deal with their disappointment and solve their own problems. The struggle is necessary, but children off or parents often get in a way of that, because they just don't like to see their child struggle.

Casey O'Roarty 8:12
Yeah, that came up a couple weeks ago. A few weeks ago, I had Ariadne Brill on the show, and we were talking about babies and attachment and the blueprint that's being developed in the baby's brain as they're forming their attachment to their caregiver. And I think that being capable in the concept of holding space for our children to develop that sense of being capable of believing in their own capabilities, I feel like it's developed that same way happening over time, through experience, within the context of relationship. And what I just heard you say, too is, you know, parents getting in the way, because a lot of the time there's discomfort, either for the child, like they're getting frustrated, or the parent like, hey, you know what, it's time to go. So how about I just put those shoes on for you,

Cathy Kawakami 9:06
right? Yes, I mean even little things like that that parents often. And really, I find today, you know, in just our busy world and the number of things we have to do and the stress and pressure we're on a lot of the times, a lot of the time, when parents step in, it's just for expediency. And of course, parents are going to do it right. Their clothes are going to match. Everything's going to look good. The shoe is going to be on right, which probably is not going to happen letting a toddler do it. But understanding how kids learn and how they have you know, how mistakes are opportunities to learn. It is part of the process, and allowing, and I like that word use, holding the space for the process to happen is so important. It's so important. You know, not only when your child is young, but But throughout your child's growing years. It takes a long time to really grow and practice those. Skills necessary for adulthood.

Casey O'Roarty 10:03
Yeah. And would you say that? I think that we also forget that they kids are continuously, even our younger kids, continuously going through that process of perceiving the situation, making meaning about it, developing a belief about it, and then a decision, right? I think that's where the lens development happens, right? Even if it's just, and it's not so much, oh man, you know, I don't want any listeners out there thinking, oh gosh, this morning, I was ready to go, and I slid those shoes on without waiting, because it was just time to go. It's not one experience that leads kids in any direction. It's that same, you know? It's those same types of experiences over time. And then they start to collect data around it, right? Like, Oh, yep, mom's putting my shoes on again because I just can't do it. And now it's time to go to school, to kindergarten, and, man, it's really hard to write out these letters. I bet if I wait long enough, somebody else will do it for me, right? Say that that's kind of like when you talk about a developing lens,

Cathy Kawakami 11:05
yes, absolutely, and and that those decisions that that children make very early on, I call them foundational blocks, because really, at at a very young age, children are trying to figure out how the world works and how the people around them, if them work or will do things or not do things, and it's, it's, I say, they're, they're, they're little scientists. They're trying to figure out how things work and and how what their power in that relationship is. So for parents, even paying attention to the relationship that you're establishing with your child and how important it can be to be more of a guide or a coach rather than a controller or, you know, just the person who has to go through and make things happen all the time. Because if you get into that dynamic when your child is very young, you might be in for a lifetime of just, you know, lording that control over them versus helping them find their own capability in doing things for themselves and and learning how to solve problems and and having the skills necessary to do things for themselves.

Casey O'Roarty 12:19
And we know that raising teenage girls absence role is not really helpful.

Cathy Kawakami 12:24
It is not helpful. And that is the point at which they really need to start flying and figuring out, you know, who they are. You know, I like to just look back and, you know, there's, there's some stages of development that have to happen there and and the reason I really like presenting this information, especially in the early years, is, is when children hit those two or three years. A lot of parents just refer to that as, Oh my gosh, they have these terrible twos or terrible threes, or, you know, terrible fours and, and it's really, it's such a crucial time for young kids, because it really is just the age of autonomy. They need to, they need to start practicing that, and develop that sense of personal control over things, and, and, and it's a really important step so that they can develop that, that thought process, again, that I'm capable,

Casey O'Roarty 13:13
yeah, and in positive discipline, we talk about kindness and firmness together, right, Right? And for me, I think about like flow within structure. So when we're thinking about those that two and three year old autonomy, seeking developing stage, and how trying it can be for parents, and you think about structure within flow, or kindness within the firmness. So let's help listeners. Kind of let's paint a picture for listeners, so it's not just like whether or not you let your kids pick their own shoes on Right, right? And something that I've said recently to parents and have said over time is, you know what their their body's desire to explore the world is louder than you telling them to quit touching the stereo, right, right, right. And by the way, if you don't want your two year old touching the stereo, then do something that prevents them from getting that close. Would you say that's kind of what I tend to tell people, like, ultimately, we have to create a physical space that's safe, not only safe for our kids, but also allows for, like, safe exploration. So if the stereo or the, you know, fine china or whatever you keep on your coffee table is not something you want that two year old to explore. It makes sense to me, then that we create an environment where those things just aren't I don't think we can expect that just because we've said 100 times, no, no, don't touch that or redirect it, or whatever. You know, part of the problem can also. That they just have access to things that we're trying to keep them away from,

Cathy Kawakami 15:05
absolutely and I mean, in early childhood, just the Reggio Emilio approach about the environment really being the third teacher. I mean, creating an environment and a space within your household is something that adults can control. That is part of the part, that is the important part about, you know, parenting and and how you can ask yourself, How can I adjust my home environment so that? Well, first of all, it's safe so I don't have to be, you know, jumping over myself to, you know, if I really have these worries about safety or things like that, which, which, yes, that part of it is very important for parents to be aware of. But there's so many things within your house or within the environmental space that parents can do and set up that will allow their child to explore their capabilities. And I talk about those things absolutely so I mean, a lot of the things, if you go to a preschool in early childhood settings, you'll see lots of lots of things there that are set up around children and how children work. So even if you're, you know, getting some small things like, you know, a chair where they could comfortably sit and eat, a smaller chair, smaller table, so so that they can comfortably sit down and eat. If you've ever tried to, you know, even as an adult, sit on it. I'm sort of short. I'm, you know, just under four. But when I sit on a real tall bar stool with a really tall table made for a person who's got much longer legs than me, I even find it difficult to kind of keep myself and my body still, and, you know, not accidentally flip my fork off the table or things like that. So think about how it is for young children to sit at a regular sized dinner table sometimes, you know, without a booster or something to keep them where they could comfortably manage their body as as a young child, you know you want to move anyway, but thinking about how an adult might might set some things up so they can reach things comfortably, even things like their toys, and having their toys in a lower shelf, in a in a box or organizer that has a picture of what is in that that that box so that children can start to take out what it Is they need without asking an adult for help, and then how adults can use that as an opportunity to say, hey, you know, it's time to pick up where. Where does this go? Can you find the picture that matches this this box, and that creates the idea of and capability of children that wait, I know the answer to that. It goes in this box with this picture, and kids can start helping with that cleanup process, yes,

Casey O'Roarty 17:43
which I know parents aren't constantly talking to me about. That's for sure. Well, and we had a drawer. We had our Tupperware drawer was the lowest drawer, and I have pictures of especially my son, because he was into everything, and some of the drawers were locked, but not that drawer. That was the one. He could take everything out, he could stack it up, he could bang on it like drums. He could put it back in. So that was helpful to him in the kitchen. And I've also heard people talking about even, like kid friendly snacks, you know, having in the pantry, or wherever you keep your snacks, like having a few things, not every snack, but having a few things that you're okay with the kids getting, where they can go in and get it themselves, yes,

Cathy Kawakami 18:28
and even small pitchers, like your child always wanting a drink of water, keep a small sized pitcher on the table with a non breakable cup, and let them practice pouring their own drink of water. You could keep a rag there so they can clean it up when they have a spill. And that's really the kind and firm about, you know, helping your child practice these skills, letting them practice pouring the water themselves. And yes, they will make mistakes on it. I've seen quite enough spills of water, but after a while, they start to understand how to get that water in the cup, how to hold on to it with one hand, how to port with us, you know, with the other hand. And the spill, if they wipe it up, is not a big deal. We don't have to have a big blow up over that. It just lets them isn't that another opportunity for them to practice their capability and and I love what you said about you know that the child sized snack, because when you talk about the kind of firm. You know, the firm parents are the ones responsible for shopping and purchasing. You know, your little kid doesn't go shopping and purchasing. That's your job to make sure that those snacks are healthy and you're okay with it, but you can put it in a space where your child can decide, am I am I hungry right now? Do I need a snack? Maybe I don't have to ask mom or go bother or I could just go get it myself.

Casey O'Roarty 19:43
And also, if you, you know, depending on your own values, if it's you know, if you want a little bit more control over, you know, because some people talk about, well, kids shouldn't graze blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but that's not our conversation right now. You know, if you're someone that's like, Man, I'm not into. Grazing. Okay, great. And when it is your designated snack time, you get to say, Hey, little Johnny, why don't you go and pick out the snack that you want? Because now it's snack time, right? Exactly. So again, within the structure, there is freedom, yes. And in that freedom is where this development of capability shows up at the very those first years. What I love is it's not just about having a 345, year old that feels capable. It's I'm thinking like, wow, having a 1011, 12 year old, a 15, 1617, year old, a young adult who feels capable, you know, who's able to solve problems, who isn't leaning and depending on others to design the life that they want.

Cathy Kawakami 20:44
Absolutely and I, you know, I really try to stress to want to work with parents, with young children that you know, those eight, that young age when they're very much around you. Anyway, you know that two, three and four, you are pretty much their world. So let's take that opportunity of that time to set some things up that will set you up for that lifetime of of capability. Because, for instance, you know, I get parents, parents telling me a lot. Well, I just, I, I just need, you know, some time to just do all the chores like I need to have them done. Because, you know, my children are going to come in and mess them up, and it's just going to be all totaled. So we talk about, really, how can we change that thought process to even thinking about the work that you're doing as family work? Everybody lives in the house, yeah. And, you know, your children around, they're definitely part of the family. So what if we started that dynamic of, you know, it's, it's family chore day. Let's all find, let's, all do these chores together, and not even thinking of it and talking about it as some chore that nobody wants to do, but making some fun and light and connection with it so that it's just something that you're doing, because that's, you know, that's the values that you have for your house. That's how you want to live. You want to have a clean space, and it's more fun when you do it together.

Casey O'Roarty 22:02
Yeah? And I noticed when I talk about this, because I talk about family, work the same way, the first thing that typically, there's a couple hands that'll go up and they'll say, Oh, my kid won't help. My kid just won't help, right? And I and what I'm hearing you speak into, which is what I also speak into, that it's not just you show up, you listen to this podcast, and then you turn to your kids and say, Okay, we're gonna do some family work. Let's clean the house together. And all of a sudden your kids are like, wow, now that you put it that way, okay, yeah, it doesn't

Cathy Kawakami 22:33
quite happen that way at my house, either, and I've been practicing this stuff for a long time.

Casey O'Roarty 22:37
But what happens? What's happened in my house, which I'm guessing has happened in your house, is that this is just common language, right? This is common language, and it doesn't mean that everybody is like skipping around super excited that it's time to clean. However that value of we all live together, we all contribute, gets over time, settled in to the psyche. And while there might be some, you know, grumbling, mumbling, it's not, you know, the chores family work isn't negotiable. How we get it done. There's lots of different options and ideas that kids have about what it might look like to, you know, who's does what and when. And, I mean, we're not going to get into that on this conversation, but again, it's that you're holding firm the structure of this is our value, and within the structure, there is room for the voices of everybody and problem solving. And guess what, since you were a baby, life has been an opportunity for you to feel capable. So right now, when I say, Hey, what are your ideas about how we could get this house cleaning done in a way that was fun and quick? You're going to have a lot of ideas, right?

Cathy Kawakami 23:53
And I think you know, in thinking about this and thinking about how you know you're trying to improve capability in your child. For me, those conversations, like we were just we've been talking about has also helped me feel more capable as a parent. It helps me live to the ideals that I had about parenting in such a better way, because I think my relationship, I know, my relationship with my children, has improved because we know there's really no challenge that we could come across that we can't find a solution to if we're working on it together. And it's not going to be solely in my domain or in theirs, but we're going to find that kind and firm place in the middle where we because our relationship, we're focusing on the importance of our relationship. We're both going to have that flexibility, and that just feels well. It feels better to me as a parent, definitely, but even as a human being, I just, I like to exist in that space. It's much more freeing.

Casey O'Roarty 24:49
Yeah, me too. And if you know, and if there's a listener right now thinking, you know, oh shoot, I've missed the toddler preschool window, and now I have a school aged kid. And I'm recognizing that there's work to be done here. Where would you suggest they start? Where's a good place to start for developing that sense of capability? Maybe, if the kids, you know, if they haven't developed it, and parent starts noticing it now they're in like, you know, first, second, third grade,

Cathy Kawakami 25:16
yeah. So, I mean, I think definitely that it is easier when they're younger, but there's It is never too late, ever. And so really starting by connecting, just really connecting and problem solving together would be, would be a great first start. And I think when you find kids really do want to use their power constructively, and they want to connect with their parents. So helping having them really think through solutions, about how you can have solve this problem, the problem being that, you know, I'm sorry, I'm interested, you know, we've set up this dynamic where, where I have been doing all the chores, but that's not feeling so good to me, and I really need some help, and how we could all work together, and turning kids into your helper and your problem solver, and really connecting with them about your feelings on the on the issue. Kids respond to that. Kids respond to that, and they again. They you know might not happen at first and it might not happen every time, but if you're starting to let them use their power in a constructive way to to come up with some solutions. You know, you probably by listening, you could come up and hear what they have to say and and work on it together.

Casey O'Roarty 26:31
I love that. I love that. I think back to when I realized that I was way too over, and it happens kind of cyclically. I get a little over involved in my children's problem solving with each other. And when I notice that pattern, when I notice that I am feeling super irritated by my kids and it seems like they just can't get along, I get curious and I think back to how I have been responding when I hear the very typical, normal bickering, which is important and helpful and a place for skill building for the kids, am I getting involved at that level? And chances are the answer is yes, and so when I approach the kids, I'll say, I am so sorry that I've been trying to solve your problems, and you're going to notice, you know, you're going to notice when you guys kind of get into some things that I am not I'm going to let you work it out, because I know you have the skills, because we have coached and, you know, played with that. But I own my own business, right? I own my business. And I say I've been getting involved. I don't need to get involved. I have total faith in you, reminding them that they have skills for problem solving. So I think that's a big one, too. And I think when it's really important, when we go to our older kids and we say, Wow, this is what I'm noticing. I've been doing you a disservice. Or however, whatever language works best for you as a human. It's not about like, what do I say to get them to do what I want? It's really about like, human to human. I see you. I'm owning that. I have not set this up well for you, and I'm totally available in supporting you in developing more skills towards, you know, whatever it is that the problem is that you're trying to solve. And I also talk to parents, I also say, you know, when they're like, Ah, my kids, they just won't do anything. I invite them to look for patterns. So if every Wednesday, you know, before soccer practice, there's a big meltdown from, you know, the the eight year old, hmm, that's a place to get curious. That's a place to say, not, not on Wednesday afternoon, to say a different day. I noticed that Wednesday afternoons are really tough. I Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Cathy Kawakami 29:06
Yes, yeah. And I think you know what you're saying is, yes, it's so true, because not only are there, like, actual steps and things you can do to help the kids become more capable, but it's really a mindset, isn't it? It's a mindset of you viewing your kids as capable and and knowing that they have it within them to do these things. Because I think if we as parents, we really have to do that, that mindful check in of is, am I walking the talk? I think I can't just say I think my kids are capable, and then keep stepping in on doing things for them or protecting them or overdoing for them, I have to actually believe that they are capable of doing things, and they might Sure. They might need some support, they might need some skill building in that, but I also have to step back and just allow them. Them to make those mistakes, and, you know, work through the challenge. And sometimes it's messy, sometimes I have to close my eyes to it, or just, you know, walk away, but I do so knowing and feeling that they are capable of solving the problem. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 30:15
and you guys out there that are listening, who have teenagers, I hope that you're hearing that all of this this is not age specific. You know, connection is seeing each other as humans like really moving in the direction of problem solving and being helpful, not hurtful. This is equally as important and vital for relationship with our teens as it is for relationship with our twos, right, right? So make sure toddlers are the same as teens anyway. They do

Cathy Kawakami 30:52
have a lot in common, and they still, you know, every they're still in that growing years. Their brains are still developing. They're still trying to build skills. So, you know you can, you could change the way you think about, you know, how the environment and what you can do within your environment, or the family work that you can do, but it's all contributing to that, again, that relationship and that capability,

Casey O'Roarty 31:13
yeah, and speaking just really quick tangent of the brain, like when I read brainstorm by Dan Siegel, great book for parenting teens and understanding the teen brain, but he talks about how up until the age of 11 or 12, kids are like sponges, and they take in all the information that they're getting from their world, from their parents, and storing it. And then, as they move into adolescence and being teens, you know, things start to prune away. What they're not using they get. You know, it prunes away and they're not as quick to receive information, which, I mean, hello, thank God, because there's, you know, they're also listening more to their peers. You know, they're not taking everything as that they hear as truth, um, from us, right? And they're big, right? They're big humans. They might be taller than us sometimes, but they are absolutely still developing those vital skills of the prefrontal cortex, so keeping that in mind and parenting and not taking things too personally, that's Am I talking to myself right now? I might be talking to myself right now.

Cathy Kawakami 32:25
Those barriers that we throw up and in front of ourselves to that seem to make our parenting journey, well, less enjoyable, certainly and just stressful. Yes, because there is a way to set up that dynamic, that kind and firm, you know, working together, cooperative, it does exist, and it's possible. It's, it's some learned skills and some thinking about it differently. But you know, it's, it's a, it's worth the effort, because your children will develop that, that sense of capability that is so important. And, you know, future, future, just successes as an as an adult? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 33:01
well, and I love that. I love the themes that come up in the podcast, and there's one strong theme that comes up in just about every conversation that I've had, and that is that the relationship that you have with your child matters, yes. So what I I started to say that the the the most powerful tool that we have for influencing behavior is the relationship that we've developed with our child. Yes,

Cathy Kawakami 33:36
yes, absolutely, and, and. And it's interesting, you know, when you really start studying this stuff and is working with families, and it's sometimes the unintentional things that we do out of out of love for our children, but that's not quite helpful, such as as just over protecting, because I think children are, they're really they're born to, they're they're wired to want to do things. They're wired to try things and and have that, that courage to do it. But sometimes we step in and sort short circuit it unintentionally, and it really deteriorates the relationship. But you're right, if you if you think about the importance of relationship and how that does influence all your all your future interactions, and you know, your child's learning. It is, it is really, really a key component there. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 34:32
yeah. Well, finally, I have a last question that I've been asking all of my guests. So Kathy, you're not going to be left out of this. What does joyful courage mean to you? Joyful

Cathy Kawakami 34:45
courage, I love that name. I love that that that is your business name. Because to me, when I think about joyful courage, and again, I work with, I work in the early childhood kind of realm a lot, and and I think that we're, we're. All courageous when we're born. It takes courage just to get here and to to, you know, grow from, you know, just an infancy, to to, you know, just even rolling over, moving, walking. And it takes courage. And I think we're all naturally born with that. And the joyful part of it is that I've never met a baby who didn't have that lightness and curiosity that you can't just consider joy. And so I think really having that joyful courage you had it when you were born, and sometimes it gets a little short circuited by life itself, but maintaining that can just help you continue to grow and just blossom and and really just come into your own being, shall we say, and that is what is necessary. And I think that you're born with it and just taking it to heart and just understanding the importance of it and how you exist in the world is, is what it means to me.

Casey O'Roarty 35:51
Ah, I love that. I have the huge just smile on my face right now. Yay. Thanks, Kathy, that was great answer. I love that. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You're welcome. Thank

Cathy Kawakami 36:04
you for having me remind

Casey O'Roarty 36:06
our listeners where they can find you and your work.

Cathy Kawakami 36:10
I am based in San Jose, California. You can find me on my website, middle groundparenting.com and I have classes for teachers and parents, and I do training for schools. I've had the opportunity to work all over the world. So look me up.

Casey O'Roarty 36:26
Yeah, do you are you on social media?

Cathy Kawakami 36:29
I am. I also have a Facebook page, middle ground parenting.

Casey O'Roarty 36:33
Awesome. I will put links to all of those places into the show notes listeners, so that you can find Kathy. All right. Well, thank you, my friend.

Cathy Kawakami 36:42
Thank you so much, Casey.

Casey O'Roarty 36:49
So how about that? Everyone? Did you learn a few things there? Um, I really enjoyed that conversation. Really, really honored that you would take time today to listen in and make meaning and find value. That is why I do this. So thanks for being along for the ride. Just wanted to remind you that it is still February. It's mid February, and we are continuing to collect baby carriers for the carry the future baby carrier drive. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go back a few episodes where I interview someone from carry the future, which is an amazing, world changing family, supportive organization that I have fallen in love with. I also want to let everyone know that if you've been listening to the podcast. Well, if you're a new listener or a longtime listener, and you find what I offer valuable, just know that in March, my schedule is opening up, and I am going to have a space for some new clients. So if this is landing with you, if this is speaking to you and and you're appreciating the conversations, and you want to take it to the next level, to implement into your life, in your home and your relationships with your family. Get in touch. Casey at joyful courage.com. Is my email, and we can do an exploratory call and see if I am the right fit for you to do some intensive one on one work I would love, love, love to support you in making positive changes in your life. So again, if this message is reaching you and you feel a little perked up by it, get in touch, Casey at joyful courage.com you can also go to my website, www dot joyful courage.com backslash coaching, and that'll give you a little bit more information. But I am opening up for new clients, which is exciting, and I wanted to let you all know, because you know me, you've been listening in. You know what I'm all about, and if it resonates with you, then perhaps we're a really good fit. So be on the lookout later this week there's going to be a live parent coaching episode, bonus episode. My family and I are flying to Disneyland in a couple days, so but I'm gonna, I am gonna come to you with that live parent coaching, so that's exciting, and yeah, stay tuned. Have a beautiful, beautiful day, and don't forget that we can carry on the conversation at the live and love with joyful courage facebook group page. So search for it, ask to join and chime in all right, my friends, goodbye.

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