Eps 27: Amy Lang talks Middle School “Dating” (YIKES)

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Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful courage. Parenting podcast episode 27 you

hey podcast listeners, welcome back to the show. Funny enough, I am coming to you right now from my car my daughter's volleyball practice, doing what I can to keep it alive. People this show airs the week of Valentine's Day, and so, you know, I thought it might be good to invite my friend Amy Lang back on the show with Valentine's Day on the horizon. Those of us with middle school and high school kids, I'm sure, may or may not be getting an earful around who they like, what's going on, who's dating. I can't tell you how many conversations I get into with parents around who's allowed to date, who's not allowed to date. How freaked out we get by the word dating. Why are our 13 year olds talking about dating? They're not getting in a car. Anyway, this conversation keeps coming up. And so, you know, there are people that are in the know on this stuff and have an opinion that I really value, and one of them is Amy Lang of birds and bees and kids. Amy is from the Pacific Northwest, and she gives talks to parents about parenting their children through their sexual development, starting really young, with that conversation around Where do babies come from? She was on the show early last summer, and she's back today to talk to us about this whole dating scene. And you know, as you listen, I just want to remind you that this is an offer, right? This is an offer of ideas and opinions, and ultimately, you're the one that knows what your family values, and as you will hear in the conversation, that's going to be the most important piece to parenting our kids through their sexual development, is sharing repeatedly what your values are, and the hope is that our kids adopt those values, right, but they need to know what they are. We need to be clear and explicit about it, and we also need to be modeling those values right. So, yeah, I think you'll really like this conversation with Amy. I know that I did. I learned a ton I yeah, I think you'll like it. So, yeah, let's talk to Amy.

Hey, Amy Lang, welcome back to the podcast.

Amy Lang 3:06
Hey, how are you?

Casey O'Roarty 3:07
I am so good, and I am so excited for this interview. My listeners know that I have a middle school daughter, and we have entered the world of dating, and I'm making air quotes, and when we're talking about middle school, and I'm in conversation all the time with her friends, parents and other parents about like, oh my god, boys and girls. And what are we talking about? We're just gonna get right into it. What are we talking about in middle school? What does dating really mean it

Amy Lang 3:42
is such an excellent question, because I think that what happens for parents is that they forget that they were once in middle school or junior high, and I remember, and I'm sure you remember, there were kids that were dating like in the grown up teenager high school, or sense of the word in middle school or so they were making out. People were having sex, not very many of them. So breathe deeply. People,

Casey O'Roarty 4:09
I was not having sex in middle

Amy Lang 4:12
but people, kids were having sex. They were dating, they were serious. And we all remember that, right? And I think that one of the things that we forget is that that was just a handful of people. They were super visible, right? They were the hand holders. They were making out in the hallway, right? Yeah. And the reality is that when people who are age 11 to 13 are dating, they are really friend plussing, yeah, like, right, they're like, they're not friends with benefits, but they are. They are friends with an extra added side of romance, and, you know, a little sexual desire, parking up and starting to see. See what this is like to have a relationship with a kid that is not just straight friends, like more than friends. And so I think the things that parents really the thing that parents really need to do is take a moment and pause and remember two things a your child is not you. Were up to your kid's not necessarily going to be up to that. That

Casey O'Roarty 5:26
is so key, and so for so many reasons, not only the dating thing, your child is not you. And if you were into mischief like I was, that does not mean that my daughter is constantly looking for mischief because she's not

Amy Lang 5:42
right. So that's the first thing. And then the other thing, your kid is not being raised by your parents. Yep, right. So here's your kiddo. They are who they are, temperamentally, emotionally, personality wise, they are who they are. And then here you are with all this history and all these worries and too much information looking at your child, and you just make some assumptions and judgments about what could happen, what they could be up to. You know, all this stuff comes up. So if you can take that step back and remember, your kid is not you. Your kid's not being raised by your parents. And the other most important pieces, your kid is not being raised in the same culture you were raised in. So just because you grew up in middle class, white America like I did, doesn't mean your kid is necessarily and even if they are, that still looks different. So there's this whole intersection of personal and there's intrapersonal stuff that's happening inside you, interpersonal stuff that's happening outside you, cultural stuff, social stuff, and so it can be really confusing.

Casey O'Roarty 6:45
Yeah, really. It gets us really worked up. I noticed, especially, you know, when I was in middle school. Well, even in elementary school, like starting in fifth grade, I was pretty darn aware of the boys, yes, and some might call me boy crazy, but we would say we're going together like that was the language we would use, we're going. And my mom would always say, where. And I would get so annoyed, we're not. That's not, you know, I argue with her about it. So now I don't know when that language shifted to dating, but I think that because of I don't know, but my guess is because the word is dating, it means like going, like getting in a vehicle and going somewhere together, to be alone. Yes, you know, as if that's what our 12 and 13 and 14 year olds are doing and then, but, but once I had some conversations, you know, the same conversations that my mom had with me first, it's like, well, you're you're not getting in a car, right? We're gonna go. And my daughter responded to me with, like, Mom, that's not what it means. You know, that was really helpful in relaxing me a bit. And I'm hearing from my seventh grader, you know, like there's a lot of kids who are in families where the rule is no dating until they're in high school. And and I, and I know personally parents that that's their rule, that's their value, right? No dating until high school. What do you think about that? So

Amy Lang 8:27
I think multiple things about that. So I just want to back up a little bit, because this idea of going with, which is what we did, right? And I think before it was going steady, right? Yes. So going with going steady, and now they call it dating. So if you think about childhood in terms of sexuality in general, childhood, childhood sexuality has become very sexualized and much more adult like so it makes a ton of sense that when we were kids, when we were saying we were going, going with somebody, we didn't say dating, because it was too grown up. Yeah, now, because of the trickle down of sexualized information to kid life, middle schoolers are saying that they're dating, when, in fact, what they're doing is that they're hanging out and they are boyfriend girlfriend in that innocent, new testing the waters kind of way. There's lots of partner shifting the relationships. Last a week, my son's friend William, had his first girlfriend, and they he had a crush on her. She had a crush on him. They got together at a seventh grade dance. Maybe it was eighth grade dance. Eighth grade dance the first one of the year. They decided they were boyfriend girlfriend. They were dating. They lasted a week, and they had a conversation about they were not ready for this, yeah, they needed to wait till High School, yeah, which was nothing happened, right? They weren't ready to have the labels. They weren't ready to have the responsibility of that idea of being in a relationship. Yeah. Kids have a lot more information now about the superficial side of dating, sex relationships, yeah, and they're still sorely lacking in the other nutritional side, right? So there's a lot of junk food information and not a lot of whole food information about sex and relationships. So they say they're dating, right? And so really, it's practicing. It's practicing. They're figuring it out. Like, what is what happens if I have a crush on someone, how do I feel? And then if I act on that crush, what's gonna happen? So they're testing the waters. They're learning and, you know, things have not changed. Like, in terms of feel super awkward, yes, and in terms of, like, their physical development, their emotional developments, the things they worry about. None of that has changed, like it's that piece is all still the same. But what's different is the external culture. Does that make sense?

Casey O'Roarty 10:53
That does make sense.

Amy Lang 10:55
So we are buying into the external culture. So we hear dating, and we assume my child's not allowed to date until high school. Well, if, what does dating mean? Right? So if dating means going out, getting picked up by your boyfriend, and they pick you up in their car, and they come to the front door and they say, Hello, Mrs. Jones, hello, Mr. Jones, we'll be home at 11. We're going to the movies and then to the soda shop, and I'll have her home by right? You know, like, that is not that's like, that's kind of what we think, right, right, even though it's never, it hasn't been that way for years, right? This big event, it's serious, it's important, and of course, sex is on the table. Oh,

Casey O'Roarty 11:43
it is. Well, at high school, yeah, but it's not, but it's not,

Amy Lang 11:48
it's not. And in high school, like I personally believe that the dating thing is a family conversation, and it's a family choice. And so you really do need to be clear about what does that mean? Kids Group date all the time. Yeah, they group date all the time. They all go out with a bunch of kids together, and they hang out and they're just hanging out, and some kids are together and some kids are not. And so are your child allowed to do that? Is your child allowed to go on a one on one date with someone. Maybe. Why not let the 12 year olds go to the mall and go to the movies? What's going to happen? They're going

Casey O'Roarty 12:26
to find a dark corner and do it.

Amy Lang 12:30
All the 12 year olds out there that are doing it, they might find a dark corner and fool around, but honestly, they probably won't, because they're all beaks and feet.

Casey O'Roarty 12:41
Oh my gosh. I'm just thinking to myself, that's what my 12 year old and her child would have wanted to do, how, whether or not that actually would have happened

Amy Lang 12:50
given the opportunity, right? So, so, I mean, I think this kind of comes back to, what does your kid mean by dating, like, asking those questions. So when you when your friends are dating, what does that mean? Like, and then he didn't say, What do you think they're doing? Don't ever say, what would you do? What are you What are you doing? Say, what are you doing? What do you think they're doing? Right? You think about that. How do you feel about that? Like, when this whole thing happened with William, and I think her name was Margo, I was like, So, em, what do you think? What went down there, you know? And he we talked about it, and it was nice because it was all rational, and he wasn't emotional about it because he wasn't connected to it. So oftentimes, with kids in this age group, it's easier to talk about everyone else than to ask specific questions. It kind of warms them in and if you're monitoring your response, that also warms them into the conversation. So if you're careful about saying, Oh, my God, I can't believe that girl is 12 and she's dating, how could she possibly be dating? It's also wrong. You're not allowed to date until you're 30. Your kids have to go all right, so I'll just be hanging out until I'm 30.

Casey O'Roarty 13:56
Well, right? And that whole kids go underground like I said. I mean, it's crazy, and I want to be in the know like I want to be connected. I want to be available. I want to be in relationship and hearing. You know, as much as is appropriate for my child to share, I'm sure I will always want more details. But, you know, I want to be open and available. And if I'm saying this can't happen till you're in ninth grade, and here's all the rules around it, and there's no joint conversation around what are your needs? What are my needs? Here's my concerns. What are your concerns? You know, it kind of they go underground,

Amy Lang 14:37
yeah, yeah. And again, not every kid, not every kid, right? Not every kid, but maybe your kid, but maybe your kid. And I understand like that desire, because I want it to my kids, very reticent, like I can hardly get him to tell me, like how his day was, which is partially his personality and his temperament, and partially being male and. Partially his age, like he doesn't want to tell me all his inner business, but so it so I want to know all that. And my hope for Milo is that he will tell me when he needs me, like when he really needs me, and that I am doing enough work, front loading him, helping him be ready for whatever's coming down the pike, you know, like, help him be ready for his friends to be dating each other, or for him to be asking somebody out. And does he have a plan for that? And, you know, and what our fam are, our family rules about dating. You know, one of the things I think that's really good for kids is to have a rule that's around, like, if you're dating someone, we need to meet them, and they need to come hang out with us. Yep, like go on a family outing. You know, one family, I know their rule was that the boyfriend had to come over three times for dinner, three family outings, and then they could go out on their own. Which I like that, because when you get your when you get another kid, do you remember when you had your friends over, just your regular friends, and it's like, Oh, my God, that kid's a nut job. And your parents are like, dude, like your child, the child would act, your friend would act differently in front of your parents than they would, right? And you get, like, a better sense of who they are. Also having, you know, that kind of rule in place, I think is really smart. I mean, and again, it's just your family choice. Meeting the other kids, parents, if that's at all possible, is so important because it helps them. You get a sense of where their their family life is like, and that can also give you an indication of how you're going to what tactic you're going to take with the kid, one of my good friends, her first boyfriend, her daughter's first boyfriend, was a kid who's Oh, he was a mess. He was a mess. Lived with his single dad. They were really struggling. He was, you know, really didn't have contact with his mom, who kicked him out of the house. He was struggling in school. He was just not in a really great space, and her daughter, just for whatever reason, head over heels with this kid in thick

and so they had him in their family life because he needed it, and my guess is probably one of the best years of his life, and it all came tumbling down because he had a lot of power over her. He was a little bit older, a little more experienced, and so it was really not healthy. So they really did make efforts to have, you know, to be engaged with his dad and his family, but that child was really troubled, and they knew that. And so they really hung in there, even though they didn't want her to be with him. And eventually she broke up with him and and she had another boyfriend who was much, much better. And so you can kind of tell what a kid's gonna be like, not always. So like having, like building, it's building relationship, right?

Casey O'Roarty 18:00
Well, and that's Yeah, and that's I'm thinking about, like the timeline, right? First, it's the siblings that are our children, if they have siblings or close friends, or cousins or whatever, and they're like that dull roar, and they're rolling around, and they're getting to know each other, and they're exploring relationship skills in this relation, in the sibling, close friend, early on relationship, and then it expands right to include school friends, you know? And so now here they are in middle school, and it's just an expansion right of that exploration of what relationship is and social skills and emotional skills. And it seems really developed. It's developmentally appropriate, basically, is what I'm hearing you really say, totally, totally appropriate for them to be where they are. And so then that makes me be really curious about what is not being developed when we are so rigid in, you know, shutting the door on that I don't know, and, and, and at the same time, super personal decision, something to be made within your family. Totally appreciate and honor that as well. And it's just a fascinating conversation to me. Yeah, it's,

Amy Lang 19:16
I mean, I think, I think it's, and it's complicated again, by what we know, right, right, what we bring to the party and our real concern for our children's safety, right? We want our kids not to have their hearts broken, right?

Casey O'Roarty 19:29
There's not emotion. I mean, it's not just like they're gonna be sex in the corner. It's like, Yeah,

Amy Lang 19:36
I know their little hearts and broken, yeah, right?

Casey O'Roarty 19:39
And the whole dynamic of, you know, I like the same boy that my friend likes and he likes me, or, you know, I like my this, this boy likes me, but I like his friend. And it gets really messy. And then we start to think, oh, I don't want my kid to be bullied. And, you know, it just totally. It's crazy down, but it comes back to what you just said, Too much information, which I've never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sense. Yeah.

Amy Lang 20:08
I mean, we have too much information that the kids have a lot of information about how they should be behaving. And if you think about, you know, we were watching, I mean, I was watching Happy Days, yeah, which was set in the 50s, in the 70s, right? So it's, it's 70s. We're watching a show about the 50s. That's one of the places I learned about relationships and dating. I was also watching The Love Boat me too, right? So, right? I mean, same age, right? Yeah. So kids now, now they're growing up watching shows that feature teenagers, and they're young, and they're watching shows about teenagers and peoples in their people in their 20s, having dating and having relationships, yeah, and so they think that's what should be happening. And so, I mean, I think, you know, in media in particular, what we're seeing is, what kids are seeing is very adult, like sexualized relationships, and so then the families, the parents, are not talking about, okay, so let's talk about what's real in a dating relationship, and let's talk about what this really looks like. Because, yeah, that it could look like that, but what it really looks like when you're like in the thick and you're on the ground like you're got another human being in front of you, like, what's really happening? And that's where parents fall apart. They don't take the time to have conversations about, what does a healthy relationship look like, and more importantly, are they in one themselves? Are they demonstrating what a healthy romantic relationship looks like? And if they're not, they're teaching their children like we are their first teachers. They watch us. You know this, we watch us way more than they listen to us. So if you're in a shit marriage and you're not willing to do what it takes to either improve the marriage or get out of the marriage. And my rule is that if you have children and you're in a relationship, everybody has therapy before you end the relationship, like you make every freaking possible effort you can to keep it together. And if you can't, then you exit gracefully. And I know not everyone is capable of that, but your kids are watching you, yeah, and so if you never are physically affectionate with your spouse because you can't stand the way they breathe, which I've been married for 20 plus years. There's occasionally times when I cannot stand the way my spouse breathes. My spouse breathes right, like he noises shit out of me and and I get that. And you know, we have a healthy relationship, right? Lucky. I'm so lucky, right?

Casey O'Roarty 22:44
Well, and I think that imperfect is is perfect, because there is no perfect relationship. And so to model the struggle, to model the work that it takes to be in a healthy relationship, I think, is such a gift for our kids that are watching us do the work. And, you know, so I lost my train what? But I'm thinking about when you came on the show last time, because you're a returning podcast guest. Woo Hoo, when you came on the show last time and we were talking about having conversations about sex, you know, frequent, brief and frequent, right? So I'm guessing that the same is true with checking in with our kids around their developing relationships in through adolescence. Is just checking in brief, regular, yep,

Amy Lang 23:35
yep, yep. And same strategies of like using the media, using friends, using your family members as examples. You know, talking about, you know, you know, like, what do you do when you go out on a date with someone, right? Like, like, how far will Would you go on a first date with someone, and even with middle schoolers? Like, okay, they have this boyfriend and they have a plan and, like, what are the rules? Like, the plan, what are the rules in the family about who, what, when, where, when, how are you getting there? How are you getting home? Who's going to be there? Like, those are the standard conversations. And then, goodbye.

Casey O'Roarty 24:14
Yeah, I remember in ninth grade when I started going to parties with boys and girls, and my stepmom would say, I need the phone number so I can call and make sure the parents are going to be there. Oh my gosh, I wanted to die. The funny thing was, the parents were always there, and it was pizza and movie, and everyone was sucking face, like totally these crazy Catholic kids make out fest, which is so funny, because it's like, I'm gonna call and make sure the parents are there and yeah, we weren't drinking, we weren't doing drugs, we weren't, you know, doing making any of those risky behavior choices. But there was definitely lots of making out. Making Out. I mean, I don't think anyone was doing anything more than that, although, who knows, but dark and I was busy.

Amy Lang 25:08
You were busy. What do you know? And this is when

Casey O'Roarty 25:10
we explore making out. I

Amy Lang 25:12
think that it's exploring, it's it's developmentally typical to explore and practice. So think about these middle school years. It's like 11 to 13 as the as the serious experimenting like they're they're still experimenting at this age. They're seeing what it's like to hold hands with somebody, right? They're seeing what it's like to kiss they're seeing what it's like to maybe feel a boob through a shirt, right? They're testing the waters. I know I'm sorry. Breathe. Breathe. Sorry Casey.

Casey O'Roarty 25:45
No, it's so good. It's so good. Amy. Love you. So they're

Amy Lang 25:49
so they are learning through experimentation. And so the biggest thing, the biggest thing gift you can do for your kids right now is to really talk a lot about consent. And what does consent mean? What does it look like there's that amazing video that's going around? It might be on my somebody might have posted it on my Facebook page recently, my Amy Lang Facebook page. Is that the

Casey O'Roarty 26:10
tea? I saw it on your page? That is a great video. Yeah,

Amy Lang 26:15
yeah, yeah. So it's the consent is like tea or not? Like tea? Yeah. Says Casey issues having some tea. So it consent. Like talking a lot about what consent is, what consent isn't, for both boys and girls, because you want to plant that seed. You know, our boys need to hear that yes means yes, and they need to hear that fucker 175 times. They need to understand that unless their partner says yes, they don't get to do more. And girls need to know that too. All that. No, no, no, no, no, okay, yes, like, just say yes, or say, you know, if you say no, then have safe words. And, I mean, you need to figure their learn again, back to that thing they're learning. So by the developmentally, by the time they're 14, 1516, and it depends on the kid, like, everybody's body is different, right? A mature body is going to be more interested in sex

Casey O'Roarty 27:04
really. Well, yeah, okay,

Amy Lang 27:07
hormones, right,

Casey O'Roarty 27:08
right, right, right, right, right, yeah, body

Amy Lang 27:10
is going to be more interested in sex. So you've got your fourth. So when I was in the seventh grade, my friend Chris stout and I had the same exact birthday, April, 24 1967 we were best friends. I weighed 73 pounds and was four feet 11. I had no boobs. I was this tiny, skinny little thing. Chris was five three. She weighed, I don't know how much she weighed, over 100 pounds. She had boobs and hips and pubic hair. She was rocking and rolling. So we were exactly the same age, and her more mature body would, because of that, would be more she'd be more interested in sex. Well, she would be more interested in sex. So you need to remember that if you have a 12 year old who's fully developed, she's having sexual feelings, right?

Casey O'Roarty 27:57
And that doesn't mean she's in the corner doing it, just means she's curious human. I'm wondering, yeah, and I think that we say, like, it's zero to sex, right? So there's all these other I think that making that clear too is really important, because, you know, for most of us, there's a lot of years before we finally say Yes, right?

Amy Lang 28:18
And there's a lot of fun you can have before things get stuck in holes. Yeah. There is a lot of fun you can have without swapping body fluids. Yeah, yeah. And so kids need to know, like everything from holding hands all the way to being tied up and spanked and whatnot. I mean, you don't need to go that far. Sorry. Everyone's not okay. Breathe again, right? So there's tons of stuff that's considered sexual, that is, that is incremental. So these are the incremental years where they're figuring this out. And so as parents, it's our responsibility to acknowledge that and to say, I know I remember when I was your age, my friends, they were having sex. I thought it was crazy. This is what I was thinking about. You know, I don't know where you are with this, but couple things that I wish I had known.

Casey O'Roarty 29:04
Yeah, I've had some of those conversations, and the look I get around, like, are you flipping kidding me right now that you think that I have friends that do that, right? She's just like mom, right? Not happening with my friends, you know, right? And I just chalk that away, like, Yay,

Amy Lang 29:25
well, and, and, who knows, six months, yeah, it's somebody in her school. She they might not be her immediate friends, but they're people in her school, so like having those conversations. And, you know, I just think that we as parents, just really need to stop being afraid of this. I mean, I mean, yes, got to stop being afraid and making mountains out of molehills and, you know, and the best way to protect your child from anything is to make sure they're well informed. Yeah, right. Being informed is empowering, yeah? And addiction is empowering, and

Casey O'Roarty 29:57
when we do want to set some boundaries, mm. What are your thoughts around setting some boundaries while you know, and preventing them going underground, which I know ultimately we can only up the likelihood we there's no guarantees of anything. What would you say? Because I know. What I would say is, it all comes back to the relation the parent, child relationship, yeah, and it does. Who's actually working on the boundaries and the and the agreements, and is it joint problem solving? Is it two people with a voice, or is it, you know, the dictator saying, This is how it'll be

Amy Lang 30:33
right? Well, always it works better to have the joint conversation. So, you know, setting aside some time and saying, Okay, getting older dating is on the table. Can we have a conversation about what that might look like? You know, right? And doing it before they're in the thick might be easier. And then I'll give them a little template, right? So, you know, having conversations like, so here's what I need, and you have to think about for yourself. What do you need? Like, I would like to know when you know, Milo hasn't really started dating, although he's something's up, something's up. And so, you know, we want to know, get to know the kid like we want to know who the child is, right? So there'll be some thing, but you know, we actually, really haven't talked about this much because of just who he is and what's happening in his life, but just saying, you know, okay, so we want to meet him like they're gonna need to come to our house for dinner twice, yeah, on their own. We're gonna want to meet the parents too, especially in middle school, right? Especially in middle school, while they're still kind of young. And then we'll expect that that kid does stuff with us as a family occasionally, and you're fine, maybe, like a rule about you're fine with group dating for the first, you know, couple months, and then let's see how it's going, and you can go out on your own. Um, we prefer that you're not home alone together, if that's a rule for you, you know, like, if you're you know, door open if you're here, door needs to be cracked open in your bedroom, or wide open. Those doors are wide open. No closed doors or cracked open. Or they're gonna wants, you know, they're gonna want some privacy, but just this understanding that you know things insane, you know things can go crazy pants before you know it. Everybody's naked, and they'll be like, Oh my God, I know, but Been there, done that, honey, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 32:19
Oh my gosh, I'm excited. This makes me excited. It's

Amy Lang 32:22
fun. It's fun. And I think that, you know, by being, like, rigid about it, being rigid about anything makes teenagers crazy. Yeah, right, yes, I just, there's this great book out. It's brand new. It's called the V word, and it's stories of people's it's most it's women's first time sex. And one of the I just read it, and one of the, and I'm one of the sex educators that's interviewed in it, and by the way, awesome. And I just read this story about a young woman who was raised Baptist in a small town, and, oh my god, she and her boyfriend were crazy. Get go everything, but yeah, like crazy, yeah, like crazy. And then finally decided to have sex. And they did it when she was having her period,

because she thought that was, you know, statistically speaking, it's less like, you're like, less likely to become pregnant, not 100% effective. So they had her first time was when she was on her period, and they felt so smart, and he was really great about it. And then they continued to have a sexual relationship. She doesn't talk much about the birth control, but just this, like, idea, like, of being rigid race, Baptist, no sex until marriage. They just did it anyway, right? So the thing I think that parents, parents really need to understand is this, and I am so sorry to be the one to break the news, but your children are going to have sex.

Casey O'Roarty 33:58
Yeah, yes, and it's your job preventing it for as long as possible, yeah, helping them wait and

Amy Lang 34:06
then when they do it, they need protection, yeah, they need and it's not optional. It is not optional. Unplanned pregnancy is not an option, right? That should be like, cornerstone of your communication with your adolescence, is, unplanned pregnancy is not a thing, yeah, in our world,

Casey O'Roarty 34:23
yeah, let's not yes, it's not a thing. It's

Amy Lang 34:26
just not a thing. So this is how you prevent this. You're on birth control, and everybody needs to know about all the different kinds of birth controls, boys and girls and and also, another little tip with you these middle school kiddos is that starting at 12, you step out of the doctor's appointment. Step out. You get out of the room. You say you need time on your own with your doc, because you want them to have a relationship, and they're going to have stuff to talk about with their doctor that they're not necessarily going to be able to talk to you about. And that's okay.

Casey O'Roarty 34:53
Yeah, when do you when do our girls need to go to the gynecologist?

Amy Lang 34:58
Oh, good question. So. So excellent news, no one needs to have a pap smear or an annual exam or speculum until they're 21 Oh, good. That would be a problem, okay? And this was a problem. Or if they're getting a marina IUD, then of course, they're going to need to go in, because that's how that is inserted.

Casey O'Roarty 35:17
Well, the reason I ask is because I think about our pediatrician and I, and, you know, he's a great guy, and I could leave the room, but I don't know what he's going to be able to elicit from her. So I'm thinking, Oh, maybe I take her to my lady doctor.

Amy Lang 35:35
Yeah, might be time to change. Might be time for her to have an adolescent medicine specialist. Might be time for her to change to a woman doctor. That's, you know, she, she, she, and she may be completely comfortable with her doctor. She's known him almost all her life, and he's cool, but, yeah, they need time alone with their medical care provider. Okay? Yeah, for sure, it's time. It's time. You can't control everything. So I

Casey O'Roarty 36:00
did hang out with a couple 12 and 13 year olds, and I just have to, and I got some information, not a lot, but I thought it was, you know, I think going back to that idea of us parents having too much information coming from this place of fear, and, you know, the Word dating, triggering all sorts of mischief. You know, these girls that I was talking to, they just when I said, What do you wish your parents would understand about dating in middle school? And they were, they all kind of rolled their eyes. First of all, they couldn't believe that I was asking them, and then they roll their eyes, and they were like, it's just about being more than friends. It's just about, like, having a favorite person, yeah? And I was like, really? And they're like, Yeah. And I said, you know, and they talked about, like, how annoying it is when parents are like, Well, where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? Like, you know, you can't drive. And that, like we said earlier on in the show, that whole response. So I just think this whole conversation is so important, because I want you know, when I think about my kids, my adolescence, I want them to develop healthy relationships. I want them to have these experiences in a safe, you know, as safe as they can be with all the information that is appropriate for them to have. One thing that did come up for us was, well, that I'm trying to share lately was, hey, if a boy's gonna ask you out via text message, your response needs to be I'm only gonna say yes if you ask me in person. Okay? She was like, um, yeah, okay, Mom, I know. And then I said, but the other thing was, too if you're gonna say yes via text message, then at least when it comes time to break up, like, have the balls to go face to face, like you can't break up over text, it's just poor character. Yeah, terrible.

Amy Lang 37:59
But the but the asking out. They do everything over text. So we have to let go of that old culture thing, because they are going to be in front of each other, right? They are going to be physically together. So taking away the barrier of asking is fine, and then there has to be follow up in face to face conversation, and they'll be together, and they might not be able to talk to each other because they don't freaking know how to freaking talk to each other, but, but I think that's okay. I think the more important thing is that if somebody is to talk about, you know, somebody asks you out and you don't want to go out with them via text or in person, then you need to be kind. Yes, yes, to be kind. Because imagine how you would feel if you asked someone out that you had a crush on and they were like, no ick, imagine how crushed you would be. So I wrote this little book for teenagers called dating smarts. So excited Tell me about it. That's called dating smarts, what every teen needs to know to date, relate or wait, and it is basically a guide to help teens figure out what their values are about sexuality, so that they can go out in the world and eventually have sex with someone. So it's really about getting ready for sex and all those steps leading up to it. So it's very much focused on, you know, dating and relationships like, I walk them through a fake first date, I help them figure out, you know, what are, how far will you go on a date? How do you How would you let someone down? I talk about the difference between crushes and lust and love. And I also talk about, you know, Are you normal? Like, because I think that's a huge question, like, for kids, am I normal? Like, I am crazy horny all the time. Is that normal? And so it's basically a guide to help teenagers get start out in the dating world and feel good about it. And it asks questions and talks about things that most people don't think about until. They are really desperate, right? And most parents haven't thought about so the thing about it is that, you know, it's good for everyone,

Casey O'Roarty 40:09
yay.

Amy Lang 40:10
It's good for everyone. And I think the other thing too, is that this, one of the things about teen relationships, is that there's a lot of dating violence. So I talk about what the cycle of dating violence looks like, what the cycle of violence looks like. There are resources for getting help, like, how do you know if you're in a healthy relationship? Also a huge one for me, which would have been so nice to have, kind of in my head back in the day, it's like, what are your deal breakers? What are your deal breakers? Yeah, right. I mean, I had boyfriends that they were okay, and there were deal breakers that I didn't know in advance. So, and I know people change and things change, and blah, blah, blah, like, what you think at 14 is going to be very different than what you think at 24 But, sure, but, but having some sense around like, I will not tolerate that behavior, right?

Casey O'Roarty 41:01
And then how to exit? Do you?

Amy Lang 41:04
Yep, how to exit? Like the whole thing.

Casey O'Roarty 41:08
When can we get our hands on that book? So it's

Amy Lang 41:10
available on Kindle and it should be available in paperback, so it's at Amazon. Just search for dating smarts. I will put the link

Casey O'Roarty 41:17
awesome. I'll put the link in the show notes, along with every single way to find follow friend, you, yeah, you,

Amy Lang 41:27
yeah, one of the best ways to hang out with me or to keep up with me is through my newsletter. And if you text, 22828, is that right? Oh, my God, I do this all the time. Ignore that. Okay, I'll put a link, put a link to sign up to my newsletters on my home page. There's I have the text number, and I can never remember

Casey O'Roarty 41:46
it. I'll put that. When you figure it out, text it to me, and I'll put it in the show notes too. And

Amy Lang 41:52
so because one of the ways I'd like to reach out to people is through my newsletter, which is heavy on content, and then I also teach webinars once a month, so it's another way to learn from me, so you can get more details about, you know, sex talking.

Casey O'Roarty 42:04
Yeah, well, and the thing I love about your newsletter that I want to tell the listeners is it's you send a script. And I think I say this in the I think I mentioned this in our first podcast, like, you send scripts for things that I have, it is not even on my radar to talk about. And I'll see it, and I'll be like, oh, ooh, I'm gonna have this conversation today. So

Amy Lang 42:26
I've had, I've had moms tell me that they actually, she said, one mom just said, I just read this. I just read it to my kid. Oh, because, yeah, yeah. She was like, it was fine. It was perfect. And I just said, Hey, get a load of this. And read it perfect, and was accepted. And, you know, they learned. No one died, No one threw up. The usual things.

Casey O'Roarty 42:47
There's probably some eye rolling, but whatever, whatever I can take it, that's right. So my last question, my last new, last question for everybody is, what does joyful courage mean to you? Amy Lang,

Amy Lang 42:58
I love that question, because it's funny, because I was thinking about you, and I was thinking about your business, and I was thinking about your business name, and I was thinking about parenting. And I think that joyful courage, especially when it comes to my arena sexuality. I think that for me, when I think about joyful courage and talking to kids about sexuality and dating and relationships is that, yeah, you have to have some courage. And it's not all gloom and doom. And in fact, the ultimate outcome of having the courage to have these conversations is that your child will have a much more joyful existence. So like that whole like, this is fun. It can be super funny. It's not, it's not all pain, right? It's not all pain. And it can be a really I mean, sex is one of the most joyful parts of life, right? And it requires us to be courageous. It does to take the risk to be in relationships. So why not set your kids up to be like whatever? Why is this so hard? Why is everyone freaked out? It's just awesome.

Casey O'Roarty 44:05
Yeah, I love that. Thank you, my friend. Thank

Amy Lang 44:10
you my friend.

Casey O'Roarty 44:11
I can't wait to have you on the show again. Anytime have a happy girl. I have a beautiful, beautiful day, and we'll talk soon.

Unknown Speaker 44:18
Yes, please take care.

Casey O'Roarty 44:24
Oh, man, I love Amy Lang, Isn't she so great? I just, I love that when I'm in conversation with her, there's no beating around the bush. There's no sugar coating. You know, it's just it is what it is, and she spells it out like it is. And I hope that you enjoyed that conversation. I hope that you are inspired and feeling encouraged to really puzzle out your values around relationships. Steps and your child's development and exploration of what relationship means as they move into adolescence and enjoy it. It's fun, it's funny. I think when we can move out of our fear mind and like worst case scenario, mind and mischief mind, you know we can, it's really exciting. It's really fun to see our kids and their excitement and their joy and and all that good stuff. So there you go. Be sure to check the show notes for how to stay in touch with Amy. And for sure, sign up for that newsletter. It's so incredibly helpful. And one last thing, I just want to take a moment and again, remind everybody that the joyful courage or the carry the future, baby carrier drive is happening now. So the bonus episode from a few weeks ago, I interviewed Alison saroki from carry the future, and I'm teaming up with a local partner, grow with me boutique here in Monroe to collect baby carriers in the month of February. And if you go to my website, joyful courage.com, and you look at the navigation bar, you will see all the way to the right, it says, carry the future baby carrier drive. Does it say that? It says something about a baby carrier drive on the website. So get on there, check it out, and you'll see that there's tons of addresses and places where, if you're not local and can't drop it off, you can send your contribution to the fundraiser, and it's so powerful, and it's such an amazing way to make a small difference in this humanitarian crisis that's happening right now with this mass flood of refugees coming from the Middle East and landing in Greece, and you know, a smiling, joyful, compassionate human being is standing there encouraging families to try to, you know, to check out these baby carriers, and it's making a difference in their experience. And I just can't help but not. I can't help not wanting to be a part of it. I can't help it, so I want to rally you guys too. You're with me, I know, so check that out. And yeah, that's it. I'm I'm getting ready to record a couple Parent Talk interviews, so get excited about hearing some live parent coaching in the coming weeks. And, yeah, super grateful that I get to do this, that you listen. Love the feedback. Keep it coming. Casey at joyful courage.com. You can give feedback on iTunes. Please do that, or right at the bottom of the show notes, if you're on the website, listening through the website, you'll see there is a place for comments. So big, huge love to each and every One of you. Have a fantastic week. Bye.

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