Dr. Monica Holliday discusses how to talk about the violence in the world with our kids

Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joy, joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 19.

Hey. Listeners, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here, and I want to give a special shout out to all of you that subscribed in the last week, I think I had a jump in subscriberships, which is exciting, especially with the subscribe a thon contest coming up in a couple days this next weekend. So yay, you. Thank you. I am honored that you enjoy the podcast enough to subscribe and that you're excited about the bribes that I put out to get you to subscribe. So good job. So today I am talking with my friend and colleague, Monica Holliday. Sherman, Dr Holliday, she is a psychotherapist out of Chicago, and her specialty is working with young clients and their families. So she's had experience working in a bunch of different settings. She also is a positive discipline parent educator, and her youngest daughter goes to a French American School in Chicago. And the reason that I reached out to Monica is because I, like all of you, was really rocked by the news from about a week and a half ago about the terrorist attacks in Paris. I had a sister who had just flown in there that morning, and she was on my mind. I have friends who live in Paris, and just the shockwave hit, and after I kind of, you know, came to a place of weird acceptance, I thought, What am I going to tell my kids? Am I going to tell my kids? What's appropriate to tell my kids? And I just knew in my gut that it was going to be something that I wanted to talk about on the podcast, because there are a few amazing articles out there, which I'm going to post in the show notes, that are helpful. I think that there's a special layer of helpfulness and integration that happens when you hear two people in discussion about a topic like this, and with Monica's ties to the French American school there in Chicago, I thought, You know what? I bet she would be a great person to talk about this topic with. So without further ado, let's meet Monica. Hi, Dr Holliday, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 2:58
Hi, thanks for having me. Will

Casey O'Roarty 3:00
you please tell the listeners a little bit about yourself?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 3:06
Well, I am here in Chicago, far away from joyful courage. I am joyful courage

Casey O'Roarty 3:11
is everywhere.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 3:13
That's true. I am a therapist in private practice here in Chicago, and I'm also parenting educator, so I do a lot of parenting workshops and classes, and I live in the city with my husband and two Girls and dog, and my youngest daughter goes to we have a school here that's a front American School here in Chicago, and that is how I found myself sort of involved in this topic and talking to you

Casey O'Roarty 3:54
well. And you're a colleague of mine. You're a fellow positive discipline teacher facilitator, so and that's why I wanted to reach out to you, is because I knew that you would have that lens on in conversation around the topic of talking to our kids about the tragic and crazy and violent things that are happening in the world. It's as of this recording, it's been a week since what went down in Paris, and I know that when I heard about it, it, you know, shocked me and broke my heart. And my sister was actually there and had flown in that morning, so obviously I was concerned about her safety. And other friends that I have in Paris. You know, my thoughts immediately went to them. What was your initial reaction to the news, especially considering that community, the French American School community that you're a part

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 4:58
of so I have the rather unique. Situation of being home alone with my husband that night, which meant that we didn't have any kids around, and then I was able to have the TV on, and obsessed a little about following the news, which we'll talk a little bit about later, but I did immediately start thinking about our, you know, French, American community that we were a part of. And later, over the weekend, I was asked to weigh in with the team of people from that school who were preparing themselves for what they knew would be the, you know, reaction on Monday and preparing for Monday's classes. And at some point over the weekend, it was determined that they were going to be observing the one minute of silence, mirroring what all the French schools would be doing in France the same day, just you know, a few hours later, and I knew that both teachers and parents were going to need some guidance about how we talk to our kids about this and not just send them into school Monday morning, not having heard anything or having heard different things. So it really helped me to kind of organize my thoughts, and I knew who I needed to figure out how to talk to my daughter about it before she had this really emotional experience of standing in a moment of silence with her whole community.

Casey O'Roarty 6:19
So tell me a little bit about that community. So are the families? Typically, French families are the there's the staff. Like, what is that community like there at the school?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 6:31
Well, like most, there's there these schools are all over the world. They're called Lisa francais, and then there's in almost every major city, there's one of these schools, and it's really for French expats that they were originally created. Here in Chicago, we have a mixture of a lot of French families, so both parents are French, and they've just arrived. They haven't been here for very long. And then we have a lot of families who have French culture in their families. So maybe a grandparent, or maybe one parent is French and one parent is American, and we have just American families, like my family who really wanted to be a part of this language immersion program. And then we have a lot of international families, so families who don't have a French Connection, but are from other countries around the world. So it is a very international population. For the families, the teachers and staff are almost exclusively from France, and we have over, you know, 200 teacher and staff at the school right now. It's pre K all the way through high school. And so it's a big community. A lot of them are from Paris, and a lot of them, you know, obviously still have family in Paris or in France and go back. So, so the community was reeling, really, from these events.

Casey O'Roarty 7:53
So and So you're talking about, you know, you're in preparation, as far as thinking about your own daughter, knowing that this moment of silence, this minute of silence, was coming, knowing that there was going to be conversation at the school simply because of the context that it's a French, American school. What? Why do you think? Why do you think it's important for parents to talk about these events with their kids when they can, kind of they, they could, kind of pass the the torch on to the schools and let the schools deal with it. What is your take on? You know, do we wait and let them come home from something like that with questions, or do we check in with them? What do you think beforehand?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 8:39
Well, I think, I think a few things, I think that the school community being a part of this is a really important piece. Because whenever there is a global event or national event, you know, we know that naturally existing support systems so things like your any community, or church community, your school community, you know, those have a buffering effect, and so it is really important to have the community be a part of the response. And that's, you know, how kids feel safe is, is knowing that they are supported and surrounded by people. You know, for our school, it was, it was clear. I knew there was going to be this moment. So for me, I knew I had to talk to my daughter about it. But I think for all parents, that is important to talk about events like this that are big enough that is likely they're going to hear about it before they go to school. And I say that because I really think that parents are the single most qualified person to talk to their children about the events like this, and I think that because it's about your relationship with them, so because you have a connection or relationship with your child, you're more likely to be able to respond and really. Listen to what they are saying, and listen and tune into their feelings, right? There's no one right way to do this, and it's less about the facts. I think, you know, a lot of parents get hung up on this idea of like they I don't really understand exactly the political implications and everything and how to talk about it, and that's not really what it's about. And we're going to talk a little bit about how to approach these conversations. But I think just the idea for parents that you are qualified, you're qualified to talk to your child about this, because you have the relationship with them. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 10:30
we'll talk a little bit about that dance between because I know that. I know that conversation around like I don't really know how to explain the political part of it at an age appropriate level. To meet my 10 year old, and I also notice, and have read too about that typical reaction we want to protect them, you know, like, what about their innocence? You know? I know that I have a 10 year old who it gets really, you know, anything, we can't watch scary or even like slightly scary movies or read books that are high intensity, because he immediately goes to that could happen to me. So talk about the dance that we do between too much and not enough information, What should parents be considering? And I hear you saying, being in relationship with our kids, but even in that relationship, we're the experts. And you know, and this is a really big, heavy topic, right? So, and I what do we do there?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 11:38
I think one way to think about it is to think about all the other really tough, uncomfortable topics that we have to talk to our kids about as parents, and that we know that avoiding those sends a message to kids that it's not okay to talk about this, right? So we can think about sex, we can think about drugs, we can think about some of those big topics. And if you know we don't talk about it, then there is this message that questions aren't welcome, and I'm not the person to come to to talk about this. And so this creates what there's, there's a woman who at Purdue who's done a lot of research on this Judith Myers walls, and she calls this the cycle of silence. So I think about it as like the zone, or, you know, cone of silence that, you know, we sort of get ourselves into without really thinking about it, because we're so uncomfortable about how we're going to this topic up. Should we?

Casey O'Roarty 12:39
Should we wait? Do we wait until, until the kids say, hey, I want to talk about this. I mean, I know, you know, I know the answer to that as far as sex and drugs and rock and roll goes. But you know these kind of big, violent, scary world events, I know that we follow their cues, right? We follow their cues. Does that mean that we wait to bring it up until they have an interest in talking? Or is this, Hey, this is something that's happening and they want you to know that I'm available if you want to talk.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 13:18
I think that does depend somewhat on the community. But I really do think that you can assume, in most parts of this country that they've heard something about this. You know, our 24 hour, you know, media cycle and social media and all of that really means that, you know, even tweens, right, are going to be exposed to this in a way that you might not think and younger kids do, they it just trickles down. And so one of the best ways that a lot of people have been talking about starting this conversation is just to ask kids, what have you heard? What have you heard about the Paris attacks? What have you heard about terrorism and and that really is, I think, for starting, starting, like kids about eight and up, that that is a really great place to start the conversation. But I really think we can assume that most people are hearing something about it, and that's what we kind of want to get ahead of it or open up the conversation anyway,

Casey O'Roarty 14:21
right? So one of my podcast listeners, when I mentioned that I was going to be talking to you, I kind of want to stay with this age appropriateness and inviting conversation. So her question was around the subtleties of age appropriate discussion. So her kids are three and five and she she says, I realize my discussion would be much different than when you talk to older kids about it. Is there? I mean, age appropriateness, yes. But is there really any reason to be bringing these things up to a three or a five year old if their community is not one way, if it's not showing up in their you? You know, community, what do you think

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 15:02
if they're not directly impacted? Then my answer is, No, I don't think so. It is not likely that they are going to understand and the things that 345, year olds don't understand, they fill in with magical thinking. And I'm not sure if you or listeners have seen the video of the little boy in Paris who was interviewed with his dad. I think he was three years old, and he was trying to work through and process the information, you know, while on camera and while, you know, talking into this mic, and he made an assumption that, because of the violence, and he was very close to the to the attacks, he said, Well, we have to move right. So he made an assumption, and filled in that he was pretty sure that, because of what has happened, he was going to have to leave his home. And that's the kind of things that will happen with with a child who's really under the age of five, they don't have the same, you know, cognitive capacity that we do. They just don't have the context to put these events in. That being said, for those children who are in France, who are real faced with this, they are having to figure out ways to talk to the younger kids about this. For for any child, though, I think it's really important to protect them from any of the images, yeah, from any of the media and any of the pictures, even the newspaper you know, you know, just a simple, you know, make, make sure you always turn the magazine face down, turn the newspaper face down. Just, you know, keeping those things out of their field of vision. Yeah. So

Casey O'Roarty 16:53
I'm going to put, I just found that video and the article around it too, and so I'm going to have a link to that in the show notes just for the listeners to new Yeah, and what is the internal process? So you talk about that magical thinking. So when I was a classroom teacher, I was a classroom teacher when the 911 tragedy happened, and I listened to it on the way to school as a staff, we actually had the TV on. The kids weren't at school yet. We watched one of the towers fall, and then my kids showed up, and clearly they had been watching the same news footage, and these were first through fourth graders, and I had a couple boys, and all they wanted to do all day long was build towers and knock them over, you know? And I was, like, 25 years old and thinking, oh my god, this is so freaking disturbing. I couldn't like I just really was uncomfortable with it. And, you know, some of the comments of the kids, and some things that I've heard from other people just since Paris are, yeah, my the kids that I work with, or these kids in this group or that group are being really inappropriate. And I think that there's something to be said for when we can't process information, you know, like you and I know in our classes, we ask parents to do really uncomfortable role plays. And what do they do? And those role plays that are really heavy, they laugh, laugh, right? And so I think that the same I'm I'm wondering, and I'm curious, what you would say to that same or similar responses in kids when, when the facts are so beyond their capability for making sense of you know, what are some ways that meet the meaning making manifests for young kids so that, you know, parents and teachers and people that are listening in on this can feel less disturbed,

you know, than I Did watching those kids knock down those block towers.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 19:04
I think it's, it's so hard, because I think it makes us feel uncomfortable because we're processing it in our own way, but play is their way of processing and but again, I think there's, there's two things to say here. I think that the play can be directed to a place that can be more helpful to both them and to you, and also that in those situations, it still is about connecting to the emotion, right? So the kid who's building a tower knocking down he's he's having some emotion, right? It's either fear or anger, and getting to that as the adult with him to process that, I think is the direction to go. And I think that can happen really easily after you maybe join the play. And I think I, I wrote this that I. There's no need to abruptly stop something like that, because I think that then just, you know, as we know, points attention to, oh, wait a minute, this got their attention, and because they will pick up on your sort of sense of fear of this is scary. This is something you shouldn't be doing. This is bad. But to get involved in the play and kind of direct it towards something else. So I've read some people suggest, you know, let's, you know, fix lunch for all the ambulance guys. You know, let's direct the play toward the people on the scene who need help. You know that you just direct it toward the more safe kind of comforting places. And that's, again, where the kids really need to go is because they need to feel that sense of security and comfort from the adults. And that's probably what they're asking for with the play,

Casey O'Roarty 20:48
right? And there's that great Fred Rogers, is it? Fred Rogers? Mr. Rogers, yeah. Mr. Rogers, around. You know, when there are big tragedies like this, to look for the helpers, and perhaps that's a place to look, to have conversation too. Is yes, there are people that are hurtful in the world, and there are way more people that are out there doing what they can to help something else that I'm seeing in a lot of or in some of the articles that I'm reading as well, is kind of similar to what you're saying about like, what can we do for the helpers, but any sort of small memorial, what do you think about that? I'm sure the French American school you guys must have, there must have been some sort of project like that, where, you know, a memorial must have been set up or something. But you know, even for us, what I don't have any French family, French culture is not a part of our life. But I could see how just doing something, even if it was, you know, just for my family, not necessarily out in the world, I could see how that could bring some comfort as well. What do you think about

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 22:01
Absolutely? And I think so at our school, the kids of all ages did different things, and that is one of the big recommendations, is to have some sort of action to be able to take with with your child or children. And I think for the older kids, you know that that is really the place to go. So, you know, once kids kind of are eight, you know, in that kind of eight to 12 age range, they they can think a lot more about the things that happen in the way that we assume they can. They also, at that age, have really big imaginations, and that can make them feel a little bit more scared by some things, but that imagination can be channeled into, you know, making a card, writing a story, you know, collecting money to send. You know, they have big imaginations, and they can come up with really big projects to do, to channel their energy. And for teenagers, that's absolutely something great to do, to channel their energy into that as a family. I think there are things that you can do that are really it could even just be private, right? They're just about your family values. Or I think a lot of recommendations have been toward getting into nature, and for all kids, you know, physical exercise is always, you know, mindfulness, all those things that maybe aren't even a part of your routine, but can be a special event, something just to help people feel kind of grounded.

Casey O'Roarty 23:37
Yeah, let's talk a little bit about routine, because that's also showed up in most of the articles that I've read, and it makes sense, especially in the context of safety and security, because I think that ultimately, you know, that's at the heart of and at the core of our kids, meaning, making is this, this question of, well, am I safe? Yeah, right. Am I going to be safe? And when they don't feel safe, all sorts of mischief shows up with them, right and and it doesn't necessarily say, you know, we don't always interpret it as Wow. My my child must not feel safe right now. Lots of times it is Wow, my child is acting really annoying right now. And when we remember that this is this, if this big world event has been something that they have seen or are are curious about, it's gonna, it's gonna show up as mischief. It can show up as mischief in their behavior. So talk a little bit about that, how routines help to maintain that safety and that security for our kids.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 24:44
So kit, most kids that are, you know, not teens, yet they are little narcissists, right? Like this is their job, right? Not

Casey O'Roarty 24:55
teens what it

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 24:58
turns into something. Different still all of them, but maybe it just goes all the way through, but it changes a little, right? When their teens it's their job to think about their own safety and to think about how you are going to keep them safe, right? And so by by sticking with your routine, by following through with stuff that you said you were going to do. That really reassures them that, oh, okay, mom or dad, they're pretty comfortable, like things are going on as normal. You know, for instance, I knew that it would probably be really important for me to be on time to pick up my daughter on Monday afternoon. That's cool. You know, sticking with stuff that happens all the time. And if you say you're going to do something, make sure you actually do it, you know, during these kind of high tension times. But yeah, it really it feeds into exactly what you're saying. Just this sense of, I need to be secure, and as long as I see everything going on around me as normal, I'm gonna relax. My body's gonna relax. I'm not going to, you know, kind of feed into the anxiety that I might still be feeling.

Casey O'Roarty 26:10
Yeah, and so they do have all these questions, right? Questions about, are they, you know, will terrorists come here? Are terrorists going to come to our city? And you know, how do we maintain integrity around not lying to our kids? Because there's a lot of unknowns, and I'm not going to paint a doomsday picture by any means, but you know, there's a lot of unknowns, so how do we manage, how do we navigate that in a way that's helpful and forwarding for our kids, but also honors the fact that we can't say that it's never gonna happen in their life, or never gonna, you know, it won't be a family member, you know,

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 26:55
right? Well. And I think just that you know, a lot of those questions, I think they will be, you know, some individual choice about how people are comfortable answering them, but a reassurance is that you don't have to answer every question. Sometimes it's okay to say, I don't know right now, and I agree with you that I'm thinking about the same thing, or I think it's scary, yeah, you know, and I love you and I'm here to keep you safe. I think we have to ask ourselves, you know, depending on the child, what is their capacity and what is their level of interest in this? Right? We don't want to impose our own framework on our children. We have to respond at their level. Because, you know, if we assume that they're feeling what we're feeling, we're really kind of missing that connection piece. So I just jumped ahead there. But I think, you know, it depends on the kid level, so maybe a few examples would be good. Yeah, you know. So we already talked about, kind of the under five under six crowd, it's not likely you're going to get into discussion about this one, this topic, but for around that age, you know, 678, I think you can keep it pretty simple and talk about things that make might feel a little more Black and White to us as adults, but talking about, you know, quote, bad people, and then reassuring with the idea of, there's lots of people and systems in place to protect us and keep us safe.

Casey O'Roarty 28:33
And then I jump in. Can I jump in only because I just was reading an article in Psychology Today by Eileen Kennedy Moore, and she tells a story of working with a young girl with anxiety, and they actually just because this fits great with that idea that there's a lot of people in the world keeping our kids safe. And she did this exercise with this little girl and asked her, and I'll put a link to this article in the show notes for listeners, for you guys, who keeps you safe? And she drew a stick figure of the little girl and said, Who keeps you safe? And the little girl said, my mom and dad. And so she drew stick figures above the little girl with the mom and dad and who else? And the little girl said, Well, my aunts and my uncles, my grandparents. So then she added stick figures, Well, who else? And then she got to outer circles, right? Police, firefighters, the helpers in the community. Well, who else? And this little girl happened to say, well, the army, right? And so the, you know, so it just kind of created this ever more secure circle of, you know, protection or security around this little girl who was having a hard time managing her anxiety and didn't feel safe. So there's another, you know, that I thought that was really neat, and something that I, you know, may employ with my 10 year old if need be, because I think it's a really great visual. Can be a. Great

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 30:00
activity. And we'll also put a link to the purple wagon website, because they have a bunch of activities like like this that you can do with your kids at home to either make it visual or make narrative, whatever works for your kid.

Casey O'Roarty 30:15
Awesome. Purple wagon.

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 30:18
Yes, okay, I'll send it to you. Okay, perfect. So I'm going to just jump to the next kind of age range. Yeah, do it? You know, elementary, the kind of eight to 12 era, era, I think you know. So we talked about how these kids have, you know, some more emotional and, you know, intellect capacity, they can kind of think about things the way that we can think about them, but they also have these big imaginations. So I think you can talk about at least this event, a little bit more detail of saying there, there are people that use violence to impose their ideas on other people, things like that. I mean, obviously this is going to be individual to the families, what they think, but this ties into something we talk about a lot in positive discipline, which is talking about anger, and that anger is okay. Anger is okay to feel. Using anger to hurt someone else is not okay, right? So that's a value in our family that we talk about, right? It's okay to be really, really mad, right now, it is not okay to throw your notebook across the room, because that's going to hurt somebody or something. And so even for the younger kids, I think you can use, you know, the under eight crowd, you can use that example of how these are some people who feel anger, and they're using it in this way that that isn't good. And then I think a lot of those kids will be satisfied with that. With some they won't right, they'll want to keep going, and they're going to want someone to blame. And you know, I've seen a lot of people writing about how this is an opportunity for parents to separate the actions of a group that did something around us from a community, and that for these older kids, that's a conversation you can get into about how the actions of the few are not reflection of the many. And for teens, I think you can also start talking about freedom of expression, that this that as an idea, you can talk about historical things. You know, teenagers, for their whole teen life, have been hearing about employments, right? Like they understand, yeah, some of the stuff that's been going on. So you can put that in context for them, yeah, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 32:48
Yeah, so one of my other questions from a listener. I'm just gonna pull it up really quick. Curious how to talk to kids about the hateful things people are saying in response to what had happened. I think you just spoke into that a little bit right, the actions of a few versus the community. But even beyond that, diminishing people for fear mongering doesn't address their valid fears. So I think what she's speaking into is, so there's this whole event that happened in Paris, and then there's this separate yet related event of the way that we are now holding conversations and demonizing each other based on our opinions, right? And so I think that's what she's trying to go to here. So she said it's diminishing people's shared humanity that's at the root of every tragedy. And she says, so I don't feel at all justified declaring certain presidential candidates heartless idiots, because that only models more disrespect, dehumanization and name calling. How do we talk about people who do bad things without making them out as less than human. Great question, right? It's hard, really

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 34:06
good and hard. And I think, you know, one of the go tos there would be to to be starting to talk about, you know, our family values are different than that person's. And you know, here in our family, we talk about this, this and this, and you know, that person has a different way of looking at it. And I think this also, though, speaks to the danger of, you know, or the seduction right of media, and that it's out there, and that a lot of these conversations are really just beyond what kids can can process, no, and I don't know ages that we're talking about for this specific question, but I think, as we talked about earlier, is that you know, our agenda, I think, is often to let our kids know what our view of the world is and our perspective and how we don't like those. Is the people who are saying these things, but it might not be something they're ready for. It might not be something that they need to be tuned into. And so I think it's checking with that first well, and it's interesting thing they can be part of, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 35:12
And the interesting thing at our house was, you know, whenever we talk about kids that aren't very nice or are hurtful to my kids. You know, the conversation comes back to, eventually gets back to that place of, you know, it might be really hard life for that kid. You know, we don't know the story that's going on for that kid. And I found myself in conversation with my 12 year old saying, Yeah, you know, all I keep thinking about is what a sad life these people must have had to be willing to go out and not value human life and to be willing to blow themselves up. Some of them, she brought that up. I said, all I can think about is, what how much pain must exist with that level of discouragement and anger and hate. So that was my approach. That was a conversation that I had with my 12 year old simply because she said, Did you know that some of the people strapped bombs to themselves? God? And

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 36:21
I think she's wanting explanation for that, right? Yeah, she's wanting some context for that. And I think that what, you know, we all feel this pull to do is to falsely reassure, you know. And I think instead of doing that, what you're doing, you were doing is giving her some context and giving her some ways to, you know, wrap her mind around it in the bigger picture way,

Casey O'Roarty 36:42
yeah. Ah, this is a hard conversation to have. Thank you so much, though, for being willing to come on and share your vast knowledge on kids and your experience there in Chicago with the French community. Is there anything else that you think that for parents to remember, to help their kids feel a sense of security or moving forward from here? Is there anything else that you'd like to share?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 37:12
I think the only other thing that we maybe didn't touch on is, is how sensitive our kids are to our reactions to things. Oh, yeah, touch on that. Yeah, I think. But I think we've been talking about it in that, you know, our kids come to us with questions, and they probably watch us watch the news, or they watch us in our reactions, and like we talk about in our positive discipline classes, children are great perceivers and poor interpreters. And so for really young kids, seeing how upset or angry or distracted you might be, it's really going to be easy for those kids to interpret that as something about them, right? So they're they're focused on themselves, and that that also is something that can be a place for conversation around, oh, you know, I'm upset, or I'm sad about this and explaining it, and I'm not mad at you. That's something I think a lot of kids are, you know, maybe struggling with or not understanding when they see the reactions. You know, if they happen to see their parents watching the news or finding out about any of this stuff. So yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 38:24
yeah. Good point important. Well, Monica, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Is there any where can people find you? How can people get in touch with you? If this has sparked a question or and a desire to reach out, what would be the best way to get a hold of you?

Dr. Monica Holliday Sherman 38:43
Our website is windy city psychology.com and you can contact me through that. You could also find me on Psychology Today, just searching for Monica holiday. Yep,

Casey O'Roarty 38:55
awesome, good. And I'm going to put we're going to compile a bunch of articles and add them to the show notes as well, and I'll put a link to your website there as well. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you listeners. We are all doing our best right and trying to help our kids make sense of the world around them. And sometimes it's, you know, happy things, and sometimes it's not so. Again, appreciating you so much, Monica and all of you for listening. If you have any questions or feedback, remember that you can chime in on the live in love with joyful courage Facebook page and send me personal emails at Kc at joyful courage.com or leave a comment at the end at the bottom of the show notes, that works too. Thanks so much, Monica, thank you. Have a great day. Oh, that's a tough topic to talk about, isn't it? Yeah, I'm gonna put a bunch of other. Uh articles, uh, links to articles in the show notes for this week's show. I think I might have already said that, but I wanted to tell you again, I appreciate this, appreciate this community so much, and just know that we're always here to support each other. So anytime there are things that show up in your parenting, in your life, in your world, and you feel stuck on how to talk about it with your child or what to do. Please, don't ever feel like you can't reach out. I mentioned the live in love with joyful courage Facebook group. Just search for live in love with joyful courage on Facebook, and you'll see the group, and you'll be prompted to ask to join, and I will say yes, and you will be a part of the group and a part of the conversation, and a part of a community of parents that really is holding each other and supporting each other through all the good stuff, through all the bad stuff. So come be a part of it. Let us know who you are, and don't forget that this weekend is the subscribe a thon contest. I'm super excited, and it's only those of you that have subscribed to the podcast that are going to be alerted about the show, the short show that'll go out on Thanksgiving Day. So make sure in the next couple days that you subscribe. All right. Big Love to each and every one of you. Have a wonderful, wonderful week. Hugs and kisses to your families. Mwah