Bonnie Harris on Connective Parenting

Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Joyful, courage, parenting podcast episode 17, you

Hey everybody, welcome back to the show. I am so grateful every time you tune in to hear what's going on. I have gotten really great feedback about all the prior few episodes. Thank you for being open to listening to just me ramble about the things that I think about. I heard from a lot of people around the last episode the solo show and the voice inside my head. And you know, it's really cool to know that we are actually on a collective journey. And every time I get to work with and interact with parents, that is my favorite takeaway. And just last week, I gave a talk to a PTA. And again, it was that feeling of, yeah, I've been in your shoes. We are living each other's stories, and the challenges that show up in your house are the same challenges that show up in my house. So you know, to me, that just makes it feel less, less isolating. It allows me to truly embrace the idea that mistakes are opportunities to learn, and at the end of the day, celebrate all the wins instead of dwelling on the things that I did not so great with my kids. So you know, I'm just really grateful to be in community with so many of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your feedback. And I mentioned last week too that I am going to do a little contest giveaway on the weekend of Thanksgiving, and it's only going to be with people who have actually subscribed to the podcast through iTunes. So be listening at the end of the show. I'm going to give some more details about that, but yeah, I am excited. I am excited to see what comes of this, because I am trying to up my subscribers. Because I want you to I want it to be ever more easy for you to tune in each week to the show. I want it to be easy for you to find it on your on your devices. And so yeah, I'm thinking about some other kinds of contests too, to motivate people to share, share what they're listening to with their friends and their neighbors and their family members. If you are finding value in the show, I want you to tell people about it. That would be super helpful to me and to the world. Today's guest, oh my gosh, I am so so so excited about today's guest. Today's guest is Bonnie Harris. She is the Director of connective parenting. Her website is bonnieharis.com she's designed and taught parenting workshops and counseled parents for 25 years, and she's brilliant. She's somebody that I've been following for a while on my own journey. She has written a few books and yeah, and she just speaks my language. Her book when your kids push your buttons, is especially amazing for the under five Crowd, as well as confident parents, remarkable kids. Eight principles for raising kids you'll love to live with she that came out in 2008 but the thing that I love about Bonnie is she just leaves me. Every time I read anything that she writes or interacts with her, I'm left just with this really peaceful feeling around we're all going to be okay. I'm going to be okay as a mom, my kids are going to be okay having me as their mom, and there's just this really peaceful blanket that she wraps us up in. And so I'm really, really excited that I get to talk to her today, and I just know that you are going to love hearing what she has to say as well. So we are talking about the under five crowd. There were some people that had some questions on the live and love with joyful courage Facebook page. So those of you that asked some questions just know that I I shared a few of those with Bonnie, and she helped puzzle out some really powerful responses. So again, thank you so much for being here, being a part of the podcast. I wouldn't be carrying on each week if it wasn't for the people that listened. So let's talk to Bonnie. You. Music. Hi. Bonnie Harris of connective parenting, welcome to the joyful courage podcast.

Bonnie Harris 5:08
Well, Hi Casey, and thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Casey O'Roarty 5:13
I am so so honored that I get to interview you. I've been following your work for a long time, and I'm so excited for the listeners to learn more about you. So please tell us about yourself and how you've come to be a trusted voice for parents. What's your journey?

Bonnie Harris 5:32
Well, I first started getting really obsessed with parenting and talking about parenting and loving, talking about parenting when I had my first child, who was a really easygoing, delightful, mostly cooperative, happy son, and I just thought I knew everything there must be to know about parenting, and but then I became a trusted voice after I had my daughter four and a half years later, my son made me feel like, you know, the best parent in the world as those kind of piece of cake kids do you know? And then my daughter stripped me of any and all of that. She just cut me off at the knees. And so I really had to learn how to walk my talk, because by the time she was not by the time she was born, but by the time I had already gone back to school, I'd gotten my master's degree in early childhood, and then, and that was when I was pregnant with her and and the first her first couple of years, and then when she was about three, I was starting My journey of teaching parent education. And so what I found was that, you know, I've been teaching this and great skills, communication techniques, helping parents better communicate with their kids, and I'm home having screaming matches and getting into power struggles with my daughter.

Casey O'Roarty 7:23
Oh my gosh, Bonnie, this sounds so familiar to me.

Bonnie Harris 7:29
So she I call her my teacher. She I had to learn to really walk my talk, which I did totally but it took me until she was about, you know, four to five before I really I had a lot of the pieces there because of all that I was teaching, but I hadn't put the final piece together, and it kind of all clicked one particular morning. I know that sounds kind of odd, but it felt like an epiphany to me. Every morning we had been, you know, getting her off to preschool was just, you know, a battle to ensue. And every morning she started out with this face, this awful face, with this bottom lip that stuck out for like, about three years. And I just hated that lip. I just wanted to cut it off. And every morning I looked at her and I thought, and I didn't realize this. You know, we this is part of my when your kids push your buttons work this coming back to this is like, this was the groundwork for me, when you're in that place, but you don't even realize what you're thinking. But every morning I looked at that face and I thought to myself, she's out to get me. She is bound and determined to ruin my day. She's doing this on purpose, and this one particular morning, I looked at that same face, nothing different from her whatsoever. I looked at her, and I thought, wait a minute, she's not out to get me. She's miserable. And everything shifted for me. Everything shifted so it's it's making that mindset shift from my child is being a problem to my child is having a problem, and that became the key for connective parenting. Really wow

Casey O'Roarty 9:52
that it that story is so familiar to me. A few details are a little different in my. Place, but yeah, that is so familiar to me. And just yesterday, and I promised myself listeners. I know that there's so many of you out there with younger kids, and my kids are older, and I talk about my kids, and you're like, what about the young ones? But I have to tell this story really quick of my daughter, who we were. We were planning on having some time together, and we were going to go out to lunch, but then I changed my mind. And so before we left, I said to her, you know, why don't you fix something here? And she said, why? And I looked at her, and I said, well, because we got takeout last night and we're going to the movies. And I just all of a sudden was like, How ungrateful for you to ask why? And she said, All you needed to say was, because we're not going out to lunch. And then when she said that, I was like, Oh, really, you're gonna SAS me like that. You know, it was just this like spiral of, what are you doing to me? And then processing it and recognizing she wasn't doing anything to me. There was nowhere in her mind, where she was knowing how what she was saying was gonna affect me. I was taking everything personally Exactly. And it was huge. It was such a big shift, and it made it so easy to go from I'm super mad at her to I need to relax. Yeah,

Bonnie Harris 11:16
yeah. And it's a hard one to it's a really hard one to get and, you know, it took a while for me to get there. It takes it's very hard for a lot of parents to get there. It's the hardest work there is because it's about taking responsibility for yourself. Yes, obviously what it's about, and we're not good at that, primarily because my fault, my take on it, because when we were little, we were blamed for everything we did that our parents didn't like. And what do you do when you feel blamed, you get defensive and you throw the blame somewhere else. So we grow up not taking this. She did it. That was him. That wasn't me, you know? Yeah, we grow up learning that if we take responsibility for ourselves, we're either going to get in trouble, or it shows that we're weak or something, you know. And so that's one of the hardest things I think, for parents to do. And we, I work on that a lot with parents being really responsible for everything you say and do. It's hard, it's

Casey O'Roarty 12:32
hard, and yet we re, we have really high expectations that our children will do that. Yes, yes. That's where the misalignment is always. I mean, I just have to find humor. I'm because otherwise I'm totally depressed. But it's, you know, we ex, you are in charge of how you feel. You are in charge, and then in the next breath, you are making me so mad. Yes,

Bonnie Harris 12:55
that's, that's exactly, that's exactly, right. So that that saying that says to your child, you are responsible for my feelings.

And how many times do I have to yell before you listen to me. Yes, that's saying you're responsible for my behavior. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 13:27
what I have been I want to get asked to I want to get your advice on something, because something that I have been talking about with my son is, you know, every decision that he makes, every moment we have the opportunity to influence the moments that come after, yep, um, you know, because sometimes he does have to deal with discomfort, because, you know, the people around him are disappointed or upset or affected by what he's what his action or inaction has created and so, so I think that, you know, it is, it's easy to to kind of float up and look down at this situation and see like, yes, you're in charge of yourself, and I'm in charge of myself. And there's an, I think, another layer too, where we are all, we all have the power to influence the outcomes of our choices. Yes, yeah. And so it gets kind of sticky. I'm feeling a little bit of stickiness there.

Bonnie Harris 14:34
Okay, a little more about the stickiness. Well,

Casey O'Roarty 14:39
I mean, it's not I it's not so much an argument as it is. It's just another layer, right? I really want my kids to be aware that every decision that they make

Bonnie Harris 14:52
affects other people, affects

Casey O'Roarty 14:54
other people, affects the outcome, how other people are going to

Bonnie Harris 14:58
treat them. Sorry, the kind. Consequences of their behavior, right? Hey, not, not us taking away their iPhone, right, right, right, your favorite toy? Yes, yes, right, yeah. So those are the consequences yet. So, but I do think you're, you're going down to a deeper level, but it's really the same thing, because you're also saying you are responsible for that, that's your choice to behave that way, and it's your choice whether you're going to let the people that you affect and who are giving you feedback for what you've done, whether you're going to allow that to change your behavior or not, yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 15:47
it does. Esoteric here. And I get and, you know, I think that I often will say to my kids, you know, I am continuously working on taking care of myself and of managing the flood of emotion that happens for me, and sometimes I show up really well and centered and connected, and sometimes I don't, and that's my work, but that's also part of the consequence, right? That's also part of the world that we influence, is how the people around us interact with us. Do you know I'm talking about, yeah,

Bonnie Harris 16:20
and let me just say Casey that I think this is a really important piece to talk about, because, for instance, what connective parenting puts a lot of focus on is that that parent child relationship, not so much. I mean it certainly, there's a lot of the how tos and what do I say to my kid, when, and all of that. But it's really, it really focuses on the relationship and the responsibility. And if you, if you want to have, you know, if you want to have a good relationship with your kids, you need to feel good about yourself. Yeah. And also part of that, I mean the balance that I talk about, because I, I, you know, I say that it's, it's all about the balance between the parents and the child. So it's not just about the child. And in the balance piece that means you have just as much right to your anger and frustration and everything that you feel as your children do. And I think we get into a trap as parents, especially very conscientious parents who really want to do the best job they possibly can, right? I think the trap is I must be calm all the time. I have to just be this perfect person, so that my child will be that too, and so that I'm doing the best for my child. But I think we are. We're we're deserving our our ourselves. Because you see, I think that we are. We can get as angry as we want with our children as long as we own it. So the problem is that what comes trippingly off the tongue is things like, you make me so mad, you do this, and you this, and you that, and you're dumping it, so you're dumping that anger on your child, and that's irresponsible, because that anger belongs to you. It doesn't belong to your child. And so starting with I just as simple as that is, is where you can go with that, and you can hit the ceiling with I feel so angry when I see clothes all over the floor. There's nothing wrong with that. So much better than you are such a slob. How many times do I have to tell you to pick up your clothes, right? So I think, I think that's what you were getting at. Yeah, you're talking about your your feel, your feelings of getting angry, getting feel feeling hopeless, feeling depressed, feeling all of those things are just as legitimate as your feelings of compassion and joy and all. They're just as legitimate. And I I really think that parents are get so so hard on themselves. Oh, definitely, such high expectations for themselves. But I do think the hard part is owning it.

Casey O'Roarty 19:57
Yeah, well, it's so key. And it's such a great model when we do right, because that's what I found, is then they're willing, you know, over time, when they see when it becomes common language in the home, making it right with each other, owning it. Yeah, my son is really good at that, almost. But yeah, yeah. I mean, I have tangent stories, but I promised my people that we talk about kids under five. So in your experience of working with parents and raising your own kids, what do you find are the biggest challenges for parents with kids during those first five years? What shows up with your clients?

Bonnie Harris 20:39
Well, I think that it's that transitioning time from having this infant who we're really ready for. You know when, when a when our little babies and very young kids wake up in the night or cry or throw up or whatever they do, we expect that. You know, we're we're okay with that. We it might be annoying. It might be frustrating when it's five times in the middle of the night, but there's something about that we expect. It's the transition from that infant who wants and needs you all the time to the toddler who starts saying no and starts showing their independence through resistance and even defiance. And I think the hardest part for a lot of parents at that time is is, is accepting that defiance and not thinking, I have to stop this right now. I have to make sure my three year old listens to me and does what I say. And then we get into the the whole Punnett, reward and punishment trap. And I think it's really hard for parents at that stage to see that defiance, to see that screaming back, and that no that is very developmentally appropriate, really, and to to interpret it, and especially if you've got a child like my daughter, who is a child who will not take no for an answer and won't be told what to do, and we think that that's not okay. We've got to change that. But let me tell all of you out there listening, if you've got a child like that, this is who your child is. This is temperament. And when you learn to adjust to that, which is really, really hard stuff, when you learn to that, it's not to take it personally and realize that this is behavior that's telling you something, and then you adjust your ways of communicating. This is the blossoming person. This is just an amazing person. This person who won't take no for an answer. It's just, it's, it's such a it's such an incredibly deep relationship. And these kids who are so defiant are also, as I have found with most of my and so many of my clients, have kids like this, because they're the ones who causes problems, right,

Unknown Speaker 23:44
right? And

Bonnie Harris 23:47
what I what I find is when they're allowed to really accept that that is who their child is, then the communication can shift and you start giving more choices and challenges and just putting things in place differently than No, you can't do that. You have to listen to me and yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 24:16
so, so you said this is behavior that's telling you something in that, in that relationship with the typical, you know, we'll kind of speak generally about that defiant child. What are some of the messages that could be happening in that, in that moment of defiance?

Bonnie Harris 24:39
I don't like the way you're talking to me. This is a child who is, in in most cases, extremely sensitive. We think these are really hard shelled kids when they're coming at us with their yelling and their defiance and their it has to be this way. But in fact. Fact, they're extremely sensitive. And along with extremely sensitive comes incredibly perceptive.

They the best way to work with these kids is through fairness and logic. And when I say fairness, I don't mean they've got to like it. It just has to make sense to them. When they can't have something, if you if you say, just come out with no you can't have that, then they won't tolerate that. But if you say that's not okay with me, I don't want and you see, there's another aspect of taking responsibility for yourself instead of I need you to that language. We we all do that. We say, I need you to this, and you need to do this. No, we don't need. We want. And that's perfectly okay. I want this because this and be absolutely upfront about it. Then they hear it, and it's kind of like, okay, kind of like your daughter, you know, it's the same, same sort of thing. You just needed to be perfectly honest with what was going on. You didn't need to go into a whole no softening place well. And

Casey O'Roarty 26:31
when I made it, when I made it right with her, the funny thing was, back to that story is she said, I thought you were saying that because you didn't think I had breakfast.

Bonnie Harris 26:39
Just that didn't have anything to do with

Casey O'Roarty 26:44
it. Yeah, right, yeah. So I hear that that makes sense, and I really appreciate talking into that the defiant child. You know, there is a misconception about those kids.

Bonnie Harris 26:55
Yes, very much. Their defiance does not mean I will never cooperate with you. You can't make me do anything that is not it at all in my in my book, confident parents, remarkable kids, I have these eight principles, and the first principle is, all children want to be successful. Every single child, I believe, on the face of the earth, wants to please the most important people in their lives. That's all they're about. You are their son. You know you are giving them that energy. You are the center of their universe. And when they don't behave successfully or do what you say, it's because there is an obstacle in their way. There is there is something that is deterring their forward thrust of being successful and and doing whatever they know is the right thing, and it that obstacle could be a belief that they are developing that, you know, Mommy doesn't approve of me. I'm not good enough. I can't ever get it right. I can't ever be who mommy expects me to be, or daddy expects me to be, and those messages sink in there it, you know, it could also be something much more surface, like you're giving my brother way more attention than you're giving me, even, even though you may not see it that way. It's all about what their perception is. Yeah, there are always obstacles in the way. So then you look at behavior. The next principle is, behavior is your clue. And so you look at behavior, and I use this image of the iceberg, oh, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 29:01
we use that in positive discipline too. Oh, really, yep, yep, yep, huh,

Bonnie Harris 29:08
yeah, and yeah. So you the behavior is the tip of the iceberg, and what lies beneath the surface is all the all the stuff that could possibly be provoking that behavior? Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 29:24
and going back to relationship, I mean, you mentioned at the very beginning of the interview how important it is, you know, to be focusing on a relationship and all the things that I'm hearing that could be happening for that child who's showing up as defiant, they're all pieces that pull us away from each other, right? Like you're spending more time with my brother, or I don't like the voice that you're using, or I never get any choices where I have no path, like all of those things seem to me, and we that's, you know, we talk about it as maybe a. Child who feels like they have no control over their day, and so they take it where they can get it. And that might be in defiance, right? It might be

Bonnie Harris 30:10
exactly they'll show you they have to grab for it if they fear that they're not going to get it exactly. And, oh, I just had a thought that just flew out of my head. That's okay, I bet it'll come back. It'll come back. But, you know, the tiniest little things can can totally throw off a toddler or a preschooler or, you know, it just this, what we would say is the stupidest little thing, or the most unreasonable, or, you know, nothing but to them in that moment, it's monumental, and maybe it's just the final straw. You know, we see one kid taking away a toy from another kid. And, and it's not even a toy they ever play with, right? It's just they don't want that other kid to have it, right? And super

Casey O'Roarty 31:12
common, yeah, and,

Bonnie Harris 31:16
and, you know, our rational mind is going to look at it as well. You never play with that anyway. What's wrong with him having it? Why can't he just play with it for a few minutes? What are you doing? And so then you come at the problem with an attitude, with a with a, you know, a blaming, critical attitude. Rather than seeing huh or thinking what's going on here, I wonder what. I wonder what his thinking is here. I wonder what's going on well, just what then takes you to the deeper level of smoking. Yeah, and

Casey O'Roarty 31:57
one of my favorite quotes of yours that I say a lot in live classes, and and when I write is misbehavior is like weeds in the garden, and if we don't pull up the root, it just keeps coming back. I love that visual, right? And it fits really well with the iceberg. Yes,

Bonnie Harris 32:15
those are the two. Those are the two metaphors I use Yeah, because it's yeah and, and if we really take the time and get down and dirty and dig into the soil and and really dig out the roots, then the Weeds don't come back, yeah. And it's the same thing, or

Casey O'Roarty 32:36
they come back with less intensity, right, right? Because that's what I noticed, too, is, you know, especially once I started working with my son when he was around four. I remember my son, my husband looked at me and said, I think he has anger management issues, yeah? And I said, No, I think he's four, and he gets flooded with emotion, and he doesn't know how to navigate it. And so I taught him brain in the palm of the hand Dan Siegel's work, and we created a whole list of ideas for him to help him come back to his rational brain when he was flooded by feelings, when he's lost his thinking cap, is what I said to him. And we had the conversation, and I didn't have to wait a whole day before the next meltdown, him on the floor, kicking and screaming. A lot of people have heard me tell this story, but I remember I was so excited because I said, Oh, Ian, you've lost your thinking cap. And I showed him the little hand signal, and he looks back at me and he says, you lost your thinking cap, right? And he was totally mad. And that was the first that meltdown. Was half the time that they had been prior to having this conversation with me. And then from there forward, the time between become greater, and the level of intensity was less, you know. And I just kept repeating myself. You've lost your thinking cap, and you have tools for calming down, right? And I would just, you know, he wasn't like, skipping around. It wasn't instantaneous. And he was like, Oh, thanks, Mom, you know. But over time and continuing to revisit that he's been able, and he's still, you know, I mean, we're I have meltdowns, like, I'm never expecting that. My kids are gonna just, well, never have a problem.

Bonnie Harris 34:22
You lose your thinking cap too.

Casey O'Roarty 34:24
Yeah, I do. And they get to tell me, Hey, Mom, that's right. Well, what about so one of my parent in my community, when I said that I was going to interview you, I got a couple responses. So one of them was around just that feeling of the constant needs that show up for the little ones, and it's the urge, the level of urgency, that's often coupled with those needs. So whether we're at the grocery store or at the park, and it's just can start to feel never ending. How. How do we you know, what's your take on, obviously, seeing our kids, seeing their needs, but also living with the outcome when we can't necessarily meet that need in that moment or the child is dissatisfied with it. What is your advice for parents on what they can do in those situations?

Bonnie Harris 35:24
Well, I think the key is when, as you said, living with the outcome when you can't satisfy the need. Because, truth be told, there are very few needs with these little kids.