Transcription
Casey O'Roarty 0:01
Joy, joyful courage, parenting podcast episode 13. You
Hey friends, welcome back to the podcast, and thank you so much for listening in. I'm super excited to share the interview that I have for you today. I interviewed Katie Hurley, practical parenting with Katie, she is so great, and she's got this new book out called the happy kid handbook, and when I was reading the happy kid handbook, I got so sucked in to the very first section where she talks all about temperament. And you've heard me talk about my kids, and you know that I've got one child who leans towards introverted, and one child who definitely leads toward leans towards extroverted. I myself am extremely extroverted, and in raising my daughter, who's now 12 and a half, it has become abundantly clear that we just see the world differently, and it gets me into a lot of mischief with her. I forget. I forget that she doesn't look at situations the same way that I do, that she doesn't approach things the same way that I would approach things. I forget this, and then I get frustrated because it seems so clear and easy to me, looking in to her challenges and seeing how easily things could be remedied if she just, you know, approach a teacher or approach a friend, and she gets super bugged at me, and often will say things like, I'm not you mom. And you know what? It is so okay that she's not me. It's so okay that she I mean, her lens is equally as valid as my lens. The way that she sees the world is equally as true and clear as the way that I see the world. I just forget that sometimes as the parent, which is why I constantly am referring to my beautiful daughter as my teacher. So I am thrilled to talk to Katie today, because we're going to talk all about this stuff. So sit back and enjoy and if you find things that are extremely helpful in this conversation, please feel free to share, share on your social media. Share with your friends. Send a review. I'm going to say this again at the end, send a review into iTunes, leave a comment on the on the website. Super, super grateful for you and all the feedback I'm getting around how helpful these conversations are. So yay. I'm gonna quit talking now and introduce you to my new friend, Katie Hurley. You
Hi, Katie, welcome to the joyful courage parenting podcast. So glad to have you. Yeah, thank
Katie Hurley 3:16
you for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Casey O'Roarty 3:19
Will you tell us a little bit about yourself and your family and what you put out into the world.
Katie Hurley 3:24
Absolutely, I am a child and adolescent psychotherapist by trade. I've been doing that since I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania 1999 which feels like a lifetime ago. I've worked in schools for a long time. I worked I specialized in learning disabilities and anxiety disorders, and then I kind of veered off into private practice, and then from there, I veered off into freelance writing on all things parenting. I've taught a lot of parenting classes in the last 10 years or so, and so I started doing some writing, and now I'm an author with my new book, The happy kid handbook coming out in October. And I have two lovely children, Riley, who's eight, and Liam, who is almost seven. He turned seven this weekend. But I'm not willing to say it until it happens. And I am married to Sean Hurley, who's a musician and brings much harmony to my life.
Casey O'Roarty 4:18
Oh, nice. Do you find that your kids are great inspiration for writing?
Katie Hurley 4:23
I do you know, they're totally different little people. They're these two little separate beings, and they they bring different things into the world, and that has been a huge inspiration, particularly when I was writing the book. I mean, I've seen so many clients over the years, and they are all as much a part of this in different ways. Of course, they've all been, you know, changed and name changed and descriptions changed. So they can't find themselves in there, but they are in there because they're all, you know, kids are just they're all so different, and they're all so interesting, and they have really interesting perspectives on. Life, and they approach different things in different ways. And I just find so much inspiration from all the kids I encounter.
Casey O'Roarty 5:06
So the book's called the happy kid handbook. And my first question is, what inspired you to write about this particular topic? Well, you know, it's
Katie Hurley 5:19
interesting. I mean, like I said, I've been working with kids for for a long, long time now, and a lot of the kids I've worked with have been sort of mild to moderate anxiety sort of seems to be the theme. In the last, I would say, five years, I have seen a rise in anxiety in young children coming through my practice, I'm getting phone calls from parents of younger and younger children worried about stress levels for kids and that their kids are anxious. And I think the world of parenting has changed a lot in the last couple of decades. I don't think that's a big news flash for anyone, but it's starting to trickle down to kids now, and they're starting to experience stress and anxiety at younger ages. And I was just telling another person that for the longest time, my husband has joked with me that, you know, it's like you have a certain edge that other people don't have because you have all this training. He's like, you know, the kids get upset, and you pull these, you know, anxiety strategies like out of your pocket as if it's just been sitting there waiting, and you fix everything in a hot second with these strategies that, you know, he's like, but, but most parents don't know that stuff. He's like, it's almost not fair. And as I was, you know, writing, freelance writing, and doing all that stuff, I started to think, you know, there's something to that. I mean, I do have all these sort of strategies and knowledge in my pocket that I can apply to my own kids, that I would also apply to clients. And I thought to myself, you know, we always think about, well, what does it mean to be happy, and how do you raise happy kids? And the truth is, we can't hand them happiness on a silver platter. We can't say, do these things and be happy, but we can empower them, and we can give them the tools they need to cope with stress, to cope with frustration, and in doing so, we can raise kids who find their way to happiness. And so I thought to myself, you know, if I could put a lot of these things down in book form on paper, and parents could flip through and say, All right, well, my kid's not anxious, but he's definitely high intensity, so I need help with that. And go to that chapter and say, How do I do that? And I could give them these specific strategies, then they could have the tools at their fingertips like I do. So yeah, it's really, that's really what the gist of the book is.
Casey O'Roarty 7:33
Do you feel like it's easier to tap into your toolbox with your clients than it is with your own kids?
Katie Hurley 7:40
I actually don't. I mean, I know. I mean my kids are although I will say this like my husband and I are both very mellow, introverted souls when you get down to it, and our kids are similar. That's not to say that issues don't crop up because they do, but in terms of, like, tapping into things and helping them, they're pretty open to what I have to offer. So I don't my stress level is lower because I feel confident that I can help them.
Casey O'Roarty 8:12
Yeah, well, and the only reason I ask is because I noticed that as a teacher, you know, it was not as nearly as emotional working with kids as it was then being confronted by my own child,
Katie Hurley 8:27
right? Well, and I, and I'm really
Casey O'Roarty 8:31
quick. I'm really quick to tell, you know, when I teach classes or when I write or when I, you know, do these podcasts. I'm really quick to say, hey, I have a lot of background and a lot of tools, and I have to do my own self work around self regulation and control and all that stuff to be able to have access to the tools otherwise, you know, I'm as emotional as the next person.
Katie Hurley 8:55
Well, I think we all have our struggles, and for me, it's not helping my kids. I'm right that I can do pretty quickly, pretty efficiently, without getting emotional. But my struggle is seeing my my own, like bits of my own childhood playing out in theirs. Like, you know, my daughter, for instance, is very quiet, and she, you know, puts all her eggs in one basket. She likes to have one best friend. You know, if that best friend's not available or chooses not to play with her that day at school, she gets that hurt, you know, in the pit of her stomach, and I remember that feeling. So my struggle is more, you know, when the lights go down, when everybody's sleeping and I'm overthinking, you know, I don't want her to feel the way I felt when I was nine. You know that stuff,
Casey O'Roarty 9:39
yeah, yeah. And this is why I'm so excited to talk to you, is because of this temperament piece. You spend a lot of time at the beginning of your book exploring temperament, the introvert versus the extrovert. And I just love this. I love this. I am a ENFP, hardcore. I. Uh, outgoing, extrovert, raising a daughter who is not the same temperament as myself, and we literally see the world through different lenses. Yes, and, man, yeah, that is I had. I would have no idea how hard it was if I wasn't living it, but it is really challenging. So let's get into Let's talk. Start with the introverts, right? So what do we see typically when our kids have an introverted a more introverted temperament?
Katie Hurley 10:34
So these are the kids that often get described as quiet, although they're not always quiet. I mean, often what they are is quiet until they trust you, and then they'll talk your ear off about things that are interesting to them. But they are the kids who in groups can tend to be quiet. They often take the watch and wait approach to things. You know, they don't jump right into the giant birthday party and and start jumping around to the bounce house. They kind of suss it out and observe and see if it's going to work for them. You know, they need time to get acclimated. Transitions can be hard. So they might form very strong attachments with a teacher, for instance, and then at the end of the school year, it can be devastating to have to leave that teacher knowing that they'll move on and have to start over again from square one in the fall when they get a brand new teacher. Sometimes they can tend to be aloof or indifferent. My son tends to be like that. And we kind of joke that if someone teases him half the time, he doesn't get it. Because he's like, Yeah, I'm not concerned. You know, I'm thinking about my own things right now. But the other side of that is that they can also be very sensitive. So they're, you know, these are the kids who they really think things out before they talk. They'll they're not big talkers, but when they say something, it's very important to them. So it's important to listen to them and pay attention to them, because when they're reaching out to you, it has big meaning for them, they tend to get overwhelmed easily. So like big busy events, big loud classrooms, big loud sporting things that can really drain them the you know, the biggest difference between introversion and extroversion, or one of the biggest differences, is how you sort of approach the world, and how much time you know how much energy you gain from other people versus what you gain from being alone, and how much time you need alone to recharge. And introverts really do need time to recharge their batteries and just be by themselves. Now, sometimes for extroverted parents, that's hard to understand, because why wouldn't you want to be engaging and doing things, yeah, all the time, you know, but to introverts playing in their rooms by themselves is fun. So,
Casey O'Roarty 12:47
gosh, well, and couple that with, you know, my daughter's 12 and a half, so it's really, I keep telling myself it is developmentally appropriate that she wants to spend time in her room. Yes, it is. And the other part of me is, like, what is she doing in there? Is she depressed? Like, I just can't wrap my head around her, not wanting to call all of her friends and have them come over or go out into the neighborhood and play like, I just it's so hard that
Katie Hurley 13:15
is hard, but, you know, she's fine, right? Fine.
Casey O'Roarty 13:18
She's totally fine. Yeah? One, that's the freak. So, what are their biggest so, so I hear you saying, like, the big group stuff, like, again, my daughter, she's in seventh grade, and last year was first year middle school, and she didn't want to go to any of the socials, which, again, I was like, What are you kidding me? Why would you want to go to your socials where the
Unknown Speaker 13:45
action is, but
Casey O'Roarty 13:46
I also am, but I also see with her that when, when she is within her group of friends, she is boisterous. Well, maybe not. Maybe boisterous is stretching it, but she is, you know, engaged and energetic and having such a good time. But, you know, she needs her downtime. And, yeah, I guess it's just, you know, the same thing that comes up with every person I interview on the show is like, it's about my work of releasing that and, you know, and she's the first one to say, I'm not you, mom.
Unknown Speaker 14:22
I Right?
Katie Hurley 14:24
She understands it. Yeah, I think that parents worry, and it's a natural worry of a parent. I think that parents worry that kids are experiencing social anxiety, or that they're missing out on some, you know, childhood experience that could be really meaningful if they won't engage in these big groups. And I can understand that worry, you know, but the truth is that in small groups, these kids tend to thrive, and so going to a movie with two or three friends, or going bowling with two or three friends, or just doing something. Small can give an introverted child that very same experience that the big dance gives the more extroverted get in there and be the center of the action, kind of kid. So and when we sort of force them to, and I know you're not doing this, but when, when we force them to do things, just because that's what social convention expects of us. We're really what we're saying to them is, I know that's not who you are, but I want you to be this thing for just for right now. Just try it out. So we're really telling them to do things that run counter to their instincts and who they are as people. And that's more damaging than staying home and saying, You know what, I don't like dances right now. Maybe I'll like it in a year. Maybe I'll like it in two years, but right now, I don't, and I would rather stay home and watch a movie, right?
Casey O'Roarty 15:43
And I don't know why I and it's, you know, as I look ahead at the years in front of us, when I think about my own behavior as a teenager, I'm like, Oh my gosh, I could have used a little bit of introversion in my life. Could have kept me out of some risky situation. So I know, right, especially, yeah, well, we're going to talk about extroverts in a minute, but I have one of those too. So tell us about the emotional worlds of introverts. And I hear you talking about anxiety, and I think that that, you know, i When my daughter, especially when she was really young, you know, she was in arms, in the sling. I mean, we nursed for a long time, and mostly because I just couldn't quite figure out how to wean her, so I just didn't, but it was really a comfort to her. And we would go to play dates, and she would spend an hour and a half of the two hours on my lap, yeah? And so you saw it when,
Unknown Speaker 16:46
oh yeah, the baby, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 16:47
big time, you know. And then her brother came along, and she just, kind of, you know, she got bumped off the lap, you know, because the baby there and But even now, you know, as far as, like, the emotional worlds. I know that we love our kids and we don't want them to feel any discomfort. I think we get into mischief because we don't want them to feel any discomfort. But
Unknown Speaker 17:11
what is true?
Casey O'Roarty 17:14
What? How can we support them when they are having like, what are your tools? What are some of the tools that you talk about in your book around that discomfort of being kind of pushed out into the world that they're not really interested in being a part of.
Katie Hurley 17:28
Well, the big thing with introverts is that they tend to be internalizers. So they're not always sharing their feelings. They're having them, but they don't necessarily always share them. They tend to stuff them a little bit, which is a bad habit, because, as most people know, when you stuff your feelings, eventually they do come out, and by that time, by the time they come out, they tend to be much bigger than maybe they were in the beginning, because they've all sort of snowballed. So with introverted kids, it's important to find a way to connect with them, you know. And when you're you know, 12 is different than six or seven. So there's different things you can do for different ages, but using like a mother daughter journal for a 12 year old is always a really, really great strategy, where, even if it's just, Hey, I was thinking about you while you were at school today, hope you had a great day. Love mom, and maybe she writes back something interesting that night. And maybe she just writes back, oh yeah. It was great, you know, but having that sort of communication open where, where she can do it in a non threatening way, and, you know, building up that trust so that kids can get their feelings out for younger kids, I often say, create a feelings book. You know, have your child, you know, take either take pictures of them making different faces, or have them draw pictures or cut them out of magazines or download them, or whatever, you know, their favorite characters, and then have like, write descriptions underneath. Like, well, what's a time that you might feel that way? What's a thing that could happen that could cause you to feel that way? So that they're really thinking about because introverts do spend a lot of time thinking, and they also spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not it's even worth discussing a feeling like because is it just going to go away? I just had this conversation with my son the other day where I said, you know, you're a lot like me. You don't always confront everything, because you spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not you should even bother, and then half the time, by the time you're done thinking about it, it's kind of just done, so you move on. And at first he was he said, I do not do that. And I said, Yeah, you do. I said, No, I don't. And then a half an hour later he called into my lap and he said, Mommy, I do do that, you know. So it's, you know, it's understanding how they think is really important, and then sort of giving them some little tools, I mean, using when they're upset, just even having a little calming mantra that you come up with together, and so that you can just say it. Because when they do get upset, it tends to be big, because again, they've been stuffing the feelings and they've been overthinking things. So. Having, you know, using calming phrases over and over again. But anyway, just having a thing that you could say, like, with my son, I'll say, like, together, we can handle anything. We'll just say that over and over again until we get through the upset. Having transition boards is a neat little thing, because introverts tend to be a little bit stubborn, so they don't like change so much, and sometimes they feel like change is just going to totally overthrow their whole worlds. So having one of those transition boards where you sort of show that day by day, they can change things a little bit here and there every couple days, and they can bend a little bit, and they're not totally going to break and fall apart if they do. Having visual things like that can be really helpful.
Casey O'Roarty 20:44
I love the quote from your book, when introverted children learn that they won't break every time they bend, they experience higher self confidence because they realize they are capable of coping with change that
Katie Hurley 20:55
it's really important for introverted kids because they the reason they love routine so much is because they understand it. They know they can be successful as long as the stars are aligned. But in the real world, the stars don't always align, and things go wrong, and they have to be they have to learn how to deal when things go wrong.
Casey O'Roarty 21:17
Well, and I think too. So I know with my daughter, I've made a point, especially in the last well, I don't know when we started, probably when she was seven or eight. It became a thing when we went out to dinner that she would order her food, because the last thing she wants to do is talk to a stranger, right? And she's so funny, even like riding the school bus. When she first started riding the height the height the we had the middle school and high schoolers ride together, and I'll say, who'd you sit by on the bus? And she said, I had to sit by a stranger. Like a stranger to me is like some dude, like a man or like an adult, right? But to her, it's anyone she doesn't know is a stranger, even if they're like a fellow seventh grader, yeah? But, and then, as she's gotten older, you know, I will send her in to her orthodontist appointment and have her check herself in and sit and go to the appointment, and I, you know, I try really hard not to hover, so that she can kind of build up this bank of experiences where she recognizes, yeah, it's uncomfortable, but I can get to the other side of
Katie Hurley 22:22
it, and it's fine and with you. And you know, the earlier parents start that, the better able they are to do it as they grow. I mean, by eight year old this summer, we spend our summers at our house in the Connecticut shore, and it's this impossibly small town. It's like almost out of a movie, you know, it's everybody knows each other, and there's this one little store called the point spa, where you can go for ice cream and food and stuff. And this summer, I started they make these amazing donuts on Saturday and Sundays. And now I'm doing an advertisement, but we would always pick them up one morning of the weekend, we'd pick up some donuts. And I started sending her in with the money and say, Okay, you decide what flavors to get, and you're going to order six donuts. Here's enough for six. Go ahead in and do it. And she and that became her thing all summer long, where I get to go in by myself. I get to ride my bike there by myself, get the donuts, put them in the basket and ride back home. And those little things can be a huge bump to the self confidence of the quieter kids.
Casey O'Roarty 23:20
Yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so let's talk about the extroverts. They're my people. They're
Katie Hurley 23:25
your people. These are the action hack people. Go, go, go, although,
Casey O'Roarty 23:29
full disclosure, whenever I have a friend who is raising like a crazy, extroverted child, I think to myself, thank God I'm not raising myself, because that would drive me crazy, even more crazy than my introverted daughter giving me so. So what do we typically see? You know? So
Katie Hurley 23:48
these are the kids that think out loud, you know, they talk a lot and for sometimes for parents this but now you think it's hard to raise an introvert when you're an extrovert, try raising an extrovert when you're an introvert and you need a lot of time to be quiet. So yeah, you know, these kids are always on the move. They're always on the go. They have a lot to say. Sometimes parents will say to me, it's just half the time what she's saying doesn't even make sense. And it may seem like that, but that it makes sense to the child because they instead of thinking before they talk, they think while they talk. So they're working it out, you know, while the words are coming out of their mouth. And so, you know, they they just keep going and going. They do tend to be the kind of kids who maybe act first and then stop and review and think about, oh, huh. That didn't maybe go so well, I should probably not do that thing again the next time. But they're, you know, they can be a lot of fun. They jump into new social situations. Mean, these are the kids that just they always have a friend. It's like the parents will say, Oh, they can be friends with anyone. Because they can, because they're just lively, and they like everybody, and they crave playmates and conversation. They draw their energy from being a. Around and engaged with other people. So that's, you know, they're the kids who love to be at the park. They'll go up to the random strangers at the park and just make 10 new friends in five minutes and organize games and things. They like to have a lot of variety in their lives. They're very enthusiastic. And, you know, again, they just, they draw their energy from groups. So being alone to them is a little bit more of a torture than it is to an introvert. And they, you know, they'll kind of look at an introvert and think like, Well, why would you want to be alone when you could be with me? You know, it's like they have a hard time standing the other side of the coin.
Casey O'Roarty 25:38
Oh, that's so funny, because I am an extrovert married to an introvert, and I'm like, What do you mean you don't want to go to the party with What do you mean? You don't want to go do this, right? He's like, I'm good, but fortunately he also is willing to say, You go, I'll stay home with the kid. And I think when So, yeah, we're tough, we inter we extrovert. So what are the biggest challenges? We are fun. Thank you. They
Katie Hurley 26:07
can sort of go into emotional overload, because they do tend to wear their feelings a little bit on their sleeves, and they just, they do so much that they get overwhelmed sometimes. So but yeah, parents, here's the thing. Is that parents of extroverted children will Oh, will say things like, Oh, she can just roll with it. Oh, she just keeps going. I don't have to worry about her. And that's a mistake, because, yeah, just keep going and going and going and going. Everybody crashes eventually, no matter how energetic and extroverted you are. So these are the kids who can sort of go into emotional overload sometimes, and they, you know, maybe have a little bit of trouble connecting their feelings and behaviors and reactions. So they kind of need help with that kind of stuff. They don't always know how to relax and calm down, and knowing how to relax is an important skill in life, because, again, everybody confronts stress on some level at some point, and often. You know, we're always telling kids we want them to be happy, but if you think about any given day, kids experience a roller coaster of emotions throughout the day. Yeah. So, you know, they do need to learn how to calm themselves down and understand their emotions. Yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 27:27
that's a big thing that my son is nine, and he is my mini me in a lot of ways, yeah, although he also has some tendency, I think. And we'll talk, you know, it's not always one box or the other, right, right? I mean, he definitely has some he has some big thoughts, and he has some anxiety. It's really interesting. You know, I have to be really careful about what I share. My daughter had a bad dream the other night, and and then last night I had a bad dream, and this morning, we were all up at breakfast, and I said to my daughter, I had a bad dream last night. And she said, Well, what happened? But because my son was sitting there, I decided not to share, because he will internalize things, and he gets stuck in this psych, in like, this loop in his brain, and he'll tell me, he's really great about telling me, you know, like Mom, I can't stop thought, I can't stop thinking about that thing that I saw, right? You know, regardless of what it is, a variety of things can keep him up at night. And so, like you were talking about a mantra for our introverts with him, the mantra is, well, let's go, let's breathe it out, you know. And and to get try to help him create some mindfulness tools so that he can release, like, recognize that those thoughts don't have to be stuck. Yeah, right. He doesn't have to be stuck there, that those don't define him, that you know, he can release them and just focus on breathing in and out and breathing in and out, and because He is funny, he he gets stuck on some funny things, but he's also like, has to be going, has to be playing. Has is Sundays are the worst. Our next door neighbors are Mormon, uh huh, and they then they don't play on Well, they probably play, but they don't play with us on Sunday. And Ian is so tortured on Sundays, he's like, I hate Sunday and because he just is so get so much energy from having a pack of kids around him, right? And and I want him to also be able to recognize that sometimes you got to be on your own
Katie Hurley 29:38
dude. Well, that's a big struggle for extroverts is teaching them how to channel their energy, because they're so dependent on doing it in groups and with other people that they don't necessarily learn how to do it on their own, you know. So, yeah, giving them some sort of tools. And I had one kid I used to work with for years, and he. Just always needed to be going. And his parents were very introverted, and, you know, they were going a little bit bananas in their own mind, and they knew it was them, not him, just because they're like, We need time to we need him to learn how to slow down, because he never slows down. And I said, and he was very into his mom's iPhone. He was just very interested in it. And I said, Well, what if you had him make some how to videos, like, he's got a lot of information in his brain. I mean, he would read all this interesting nonfiction stuff. And said, what if he just, what if he made a bunch of videos, like, just let him use your phone and he can and so he did. He said, You know, like, how to know the difference between two kinds of dinosaurs, how to do. He would came up with all these interesting things, and then he would be in his room, and he would make the videos. And then they would say, okay, in an hour, come and show us all the videos that you've made and edited. And he would do that. And that sort of helped him learn, okay, I need to be doing things, but I don't always need to be doing things with other people. So sometimes with extroverted kids, you got to get creative. You got to tap into who they are and what their interests are, and then you can help them figure out how to channel that energy.
Casey O'Roarty 31:21
Yeah, I can totally imagine Ian, okay, go make them, then show me. He's like, look, look, watch this. I'm like, no practice. Practice for a while, and then I'll watch like, yeah,
Katie Hurley 31:32
I always thought, you know, timers. Timers are the best strategy around, you know, just oh for sure, set a timer when it goes off. That's when I could see that video. You know, they have to learn to slow down and relax. The other struggle, you know, there's so much in the media right now about introverts in the classroom, because these are the kids who don't necessarily advocate for themselves, and sometimes they get a little bit lost in the shuffle. But the flip side of that is that, because extroverted children have so much energy and so many interesting things to say all the time. They actually sometimes get themselves in trouble for, oh, yeah, not good listeners. And then that's kind of not fair, because they need to learn listening skills, you know. And maybe they haven't been taught those listening skills, or they just haven't picked them up yet. So that's another struggle that parents should be aware of, is teaching them how to listen. And, you know, doing little things with them, like just even when we're listening to our kids, getting down on their level, getting eye to eye, asking them to repeat back what you said. So just give a little recap, you know, and then doing little stories and things together. I love doing continuous stories with my kids, where we sit around the table while we're eating dinner as a family, and somebody starts the story, oh, a monster went into the woods and was walking along the path and and the next person picks up from there. And then we just keep going around and around, because everybody has to listen to everything that's happening if they're going to contribute. And that helps them slow down, make eye contact, really pay attention to what someone else is saying. Those things can be a fun way to teach listening skills
Casey O'Roarty 33:06
well. And I think the key to this part is also that listening is not something we're born to do, no, you know. And I think there's so many social and emotional skills that parents get frustrated when their kids aren't engaging in those skills, not realizing that self control is a learned skill for sure, and empathy and remorse and all of those things are learned skills. And so I'm glad that you brought that up, because they are. They're things we have to teach, and we have to teach over and over and over again just because we've said it once, even though, man, wouldn't, I can't even imagine the world that we'd live in if we only had to say things once, right? And the person got it on the first try. But that's just not the case, right? And what about so and especially extroverts in the classroom, I teach teachers as well social and emotional character development curriculum, and you know, that's kind of a big aha for them, is recognizing that the kids aren't showing up naughty, right or with bad attitudes. They're doing the best they can with the skills they have, right? And really, when they can become curious about what skills are missing and start to work at that level that is so much more powerful, as far as engaging more cooperative, respectful behavior in the classroom, than just looking for new and creative ways to discipline, You know, punish the child into, you know, being easier in the class. That's
Katie Hurley 34:43
true. And a lot of schools now are sort of embracing that group think way of teaching, where kids are put into groups. And it's that actually benefits both kinds of kids, all kinds of kids. You know, it may be hard for introverted students at first, because that's not their natural Institute. Trying to jump into a group. But when the group is small and the people are familiar, if the introverted students are placed carefully with someone they know and trust, then they can learn to assert themselves. And the more extroverted kids can get their ideas out there and really, you know, sound off other people. It kind of works for everybody.
Casey O'Roarty 35:17
Yeah, I mean, and when they're trained to be in the group together when they're trained in how to show up with mutual respect and communication skills. Yeah, then, you know, it's really powerful. Okay, I totally took went on a tangent there. So I and I talked about mindfulness with my boy. How do you How does mindfulness show up in your practice, with kids, your clients and with your own kids, Tell us. Tell me about how mindfulness can become a tool.
Katie Hurley 35:47
Well, I mean, mindfulness is huge right now, and for good reason. We are living in a very busy, busy, stressed, out world. Kids are sort of being rushed through childhood. They're over scheduled. They're not sleeping enough. They're exhausted. Parents are about the same, so it's a nice, you know, mindfulness training, or just mindfulness programs, are just great for helping everybody hit the pause button. You know, learn to pay attention to their surroundings, to pay attention to the here and now. We're a lot of us are just running through life, and we're not seeing the things that are whizzing by us, and a lot of times, those things are cute little people in our houses that just want to have a conversation with us, and we're too busy to stop and do that. So I think that it's great that people are embracing it. I think it's great that schools are embracing it, but teaching kids, part of it is teaching kids how to understand how their brains work and the mind body connection, it's sort of giving them a lesson in what it means when that worry brain sort of kicks into full gear and how that affects the rest of you, and then teaching them strategies like deep breathing is huge. And I've been teaching kids deep breathing for many, many years, and I say to parents all the time, it's the single best tool that you can give your child. And you should start when they're toddlers, and you should repeat over and over again until they're full grown, because it really calms the senses. It reorients your brain, your body. It can stop panic from taking over if done properly. The problem is that most kids don't know how to do deep breathing properly. Parents will say, you know, take a breath. Take a deep breath. And they'll go, and then they're, you know, hyperventilating and in a complete full blown panic attack a minute later. So it's having for parents to have the tools. And I teach a lot of this in this book. Is important. I've taught my kids since they were toddlers to do I call it balloon breathing, where I have them pretend that they're going to blow up a balloon, and we'll say, you know, and just for everybody's own knowledge, the best time to teach these things is not when your child is upset, but when your child is calm.
Casey O'Roarty 38:00
I think that, oh, amen. This game end of that is
Katie Hurley 38:03
like, Oh, they're upset. What do I do? How do I fix it? But we got to teach these things when they're calm and happy, because that's when they can best process it and internalize it and remember it for when they actually need it. But so I will have them say, like, oh, pick a what color balloon Are you going to make? Oh, purple. Is it going to have a design? Yeah, it'll have a butterfly on it. And I'll say, Okay, now remember when you blow up a balloon, if you just blow too hard on a balloon, it's gonna pop right out of your mouth. It won't inflate. If you want to blow up a balloon, you have to take a really deep breath in, and then you have to really slowly breathe out into the balloon. And we'll practice once, and then we'll blow up a balloon, and I'll count in for four, and then I'll count out for four while they're blowing it up, and they'll tie a string around it and float it off. And, you know, we'll talk about, where's the balloon gonna go. And imagery is huge for kids. It helps calm them down, and it helps them remember the exercise. You know, when kids have a fun image in their minds to connect to a deep breathing exercise, they'll go back to it when they need it, because they'll remember, oh, that time I made balloons with Katie made me feel so good. I want to do that now on my own.
Casey O'Roarty 39:06
So T and it becomes a and it becomes like, a little like a language prompt, right? You can say, like, Wow, I wonder if it would help you to blow a balloon up, right, right, exactly.
Katie Hurley 39:18
And then using, I love using guided imagery, which is another part of mindfulness at night. I mean, bedtime battles are like a constant with parents. I mean, you know, it's so funny, because when you have a newborn, remember how everybody's like, Oh, once they're sleep trained, you're good. And it's like, right? That's not true, but because then they get just changes, and then they get sick, and then they're stressed. You know, it's like, yeah, there's always something that can get in the way of sleep. I mean, that's life even parents. Is like, I sit up at night. Sometimes I wake up at two in the morning because I didn't do all the things I needed to do during the day, and my to do list keeps me my task manager keeps me from sleeping. So. It's, I think we have this thing where we want kids to just be good sleepers, but if we really sat down and thought about our own lives like we're not all good sleepers all the time, you know, it's natural to struggle with that, but, but mindfulness exercises and guided guided imagery, where you're cueing your kids to do the deep breathing that you've learned, and then you're either reading them a script, or there's even apps for it. You know, there's, I think it's called, was it called the well being app or something? There's a couple of apps that do guided imagery for older kids who maybe don't want mom sitting in their room reading them a script, but they can listen to it on their iPod and as they fall asleep. Those are great. There's a program called Ready, set, relax, that was designed with teachers in mind, but it's great for parents because it gives them the tools to teach their kids how to do progressive muscle relaxation, how to do the deep breathing, and then it has a bunch of guided imagery scripts that they can just read. They take like, five minutes, you know. And then the more we do this with our kids, the more they learn to do it on their own. I was just telling somebody today that, because then the fear is, well, now they're going to need me to do this every night for them to go to bed. And that's not true, because you're teaching tools, and it does take time, and you will have to repeat it, but then eventually they learn to do it alone. And my daughter's a great example, because I was doing guided imagery with her forever, and I just make up my own scripts. I'll say to her, Oh, where do you want to go on your relaxing story tonight? And she'll pick a destination, and I just come up with something, and I cue her to do the deep breathing. But then some nights I have to get back to work, or I have to do something, or I'm going out, and I'll say to Roe, tonight, I can't do your relaxing story. And she came up with something on her own that she calls dream discs. And she said, that's all right, mommy, because I've stored all your stories on Dream discs. So I'll just pick the one I want and stick it in my head, and I'll just think it, and I'll go to bed I know something so cute. And I thought, wow, that's genius. But she she did that on her own, just from because she learned it. So, you know, when we give kids tools, they learn them, and they remember them, and they use them
Casey O'Roarty 42:02
well. And I also, you know, to speak into that whole idea around, oh, then I'm gonna have to do this every night. Hey, five minutes of guided meditation. At the end of the world, a half an hour of bedtime battle. I mean, really, no brainer,
Katie Hurley 42:19
I know. Yeah, so it's a nice it's just a nice calming time together. I don't know if you've read Rachel Macy Stafford's new book, but she talks about that 10 minutes, that crucial 10 minutes of just finding 10 minutes in the day where you're totally engaged with a child, one on one, doing something calming and special together. It's like, well, there's your 10 minutes. You know, you're engaging, you're being there for them, you're building trust, you're strengthening your bond, and you're sending them off to bed. It's totally not the end of the world. You know, it's a great for sure. Yeah, and
Casey O'Roarty 42:57
Rachel was on my show. Oh, she was, yeah, she was on Episode 11. I
Katie Hurley 43:00
love her. I just love I love her too.
Casey O'Roarty 43:02
She's fabulous. Well, I you know, I know that there's some kids I want to say again, I want to kind of reiterate this, because I think that we adults are really good at labeling things, and sometimes that's really helpful. But when it comes to our kids, it's not so helpful. And one of my favorite quotes from your book is the key to raising Happy Kids, despite the stress and ups and downs, is figuring out who your kids are first and then working to meet their individual needs. That's right. So regardless if your child is predominantly introvert, predominantly extrovert, kind of both and those things depending on situations, what I'm hearing from you is, know your kid absolutely in relationship with your kid, know your kid and meet them where they're at, rather than having some kind of external expectation you know a list of rules that aren't necessarily taking into account the human being that you're raising. Absolutely,
Katie Hurley 44:03
I think we've been conditioned as parents in the last couple decades to find the thing that works and apply it. And the truth is that if we just do that, if we come up with these broad theories and just follow these broad theories and try to apply them to everything, it's not going to work because every kid is so different. They're all individuals, and they all have their own individual needs. And truly, we wouldn't want it any other way. I mean, we don't want to raise a bunch of robots who are all the same. We want to celebrate their individuality, and that begins with getting to know them when they're babies and figuring out what makes them tick and growing with
Casey O'Roarty 44:43
them. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Katie, I'm so glad that you're on the show. Please tell everybody that's listening where they can find you and your your
Katie Hurley 44:56
stuff. Well, they can find me. I feel like just about. Everywhere, but I My website is practical katie.com I can also be found often on the Huffington Post and PBS parents. My Facebook page is practical parenting by Katie, and I'm Katie F Hurley on Twitter,
Casey O'Roarty 45:14
all right, and you have a little how long does the the promo? Order the book and get those cute little feeling face magnets. Oh yeah, that's something. How long does that go? Toes?
Katie Hurley 45:27
Well, it's, it's, I'm, the first 50 pre orders are getting the magnets. So there's still some, there's still some available and out there.
Casey O'Roarty 45:35
Okay, so listeners get on that because you're, you're gonna be listening to this podcast in like a week, so perfect. Get on that order and get that little bonus on the feeling faces, and there will be a link in the show notes to get Katie's book and a link to all of her social media and where to find her. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
Unknown Speaker 45:56
you.
Casey O'Roarty 45:57
Those of you that are listening, don't forget that reviews and ratings on iTunes helps me to get the show out to more people. So please, please, please write a review, rate the show. Feel free to leave a comment in the on the website, or to leave a speak pipe message. I love hearing from you and knowing what is helpful and what else you might like to hear on the podcast, and you can peruse my website as well. Joyful courage.com and join the tribe and check out the offers that I have there. So have a great day, everybody. Thanks for listening.
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