Transcription
Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Music. Hello friends. Welcome to episode 300 of the joyful courage podcast. What I know episode 300 this show started way back in January of 2015 with an interview with myself and Andy Smithson, and now we're closing out our seventh year of podcasting friends. Oh my gosh, isn't that so crazy? It literally blows my mind. I started off thinking, you know, way back then, that I would put out one show a month, one show a month, I'll get an interview done, put out a show a month. It'd be great. I quickly fell in love with creating conversations for you to listen to, and moved to a biweekly schedule, only to be putting out weekly shows by October of that year. And then back in July of 2017 I started adding regular solo shows into the mix, and now I'm sliding a monthly live coaching call onto the show each month. Isn't that cool? This show and community has meant everything to me. I just want you all to really sit with that. You email me and let me know that these conversations matter to you, but I really want to highlight that you you listeners, you community, you were there as I navigated my toughest years of parenting followed by a really intense family health crisis, And I just feel so grateful to be in relationship with all of you, knowing that we see each other in deeply meaningful ways. So welcome to episode 300 and if you're new, you should know that this is a really special place. Welcome. This is a place where we do what? Oh, yeah, we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting, parenting teenagers specifically, right? I'm your host. I'm Casey oberardi. I'm a positive discipline lead trainer, a parent coach, and most importantly, I'm a mom walking the path right next to you, as I also am perfectly raising two teenagers. Today's show is an interview. I've been teasing it for the past couple of weeks. I know that you will enjoy it as much as I enjoyed recording it. My guest is fantastic. So put in your earbuds, find something to do that's easy, like taking a walk or folding some laundry or taking a long drive and enjoy the show.
Hi, listeners. My guest today is Dr Dan Siegel. He is a graduate of Harvard Medical School and completed his post graduate median education at UCLA with training in pediatrics and child, adolescent and adult psychiatry. He is currently a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine, founding co director of the UCLA mindfulness awareness Research Center, founding co investigator at the UCLA Center for Culture, brain and development, and executive director of the Mindsight Institute, an educational center devoted to promoting insight, compassion and empathy in individuals, families, institutions and communities. He uses all of his spare time to author so many books that we all love, including New York Times bestsellers, aware brainstorm, the whole brain child and parenting from the inside out. This is the third time that Dan Siegel has been on this podcast. We spoke in August of 2018 on Episode 154, about his book, aware. And then again in January 2020, on Episode 215, with Dr Tina Bryson about their book, The Power of showing up. Today, we're going to dig into his new guide, becoming aware, a 21 day mindfulness program for reducing anxiety and cultivating calm. Hi, Dr Siegel, welcome back to the podcast.
Dr. Dan Siegel 4:25
Hi Casey, thanks for having me.
Casey O'Roarty 4:27
My favorite thing about you, and I probably said this both times that we've talked before, is that you have this extensive science brain research background, and you can also be found on mindfulness panels talking about and promoting meditation. I love your work, and I'm so honored to share you again, and you're actually my guest for my 300th episode.
Dr. Dan Siegel 4:52
Yay. Well, congratulations, Casey for 300 episodes. My gosh, I know it's
Casey O'Roarty 4:58
pretty wild. I. Um, so I shared your bio. Can you talk a little bit about when you became interested and drawn towards mindfulness practice and really the science of mindfulness, and specifically why you bring it into so many of your resources for parents?
Dr. Dan Siegel 5:17
Wow, yeah, with this, uh, you know, so many ways to describe that. Of course, humanity has been interested in our position in the world and our role of our awareness, you know, for 1000s of years in indigenous teachings. So here I am on the land of the Tongva and the border with the land of the Chumash in Southern California, and in indigenous teachings here in California, but throughout the world, there's always been something about our awareness of our connection with nature. So growing up here, I think from the beginning, I was just very aware that I was a human being and a human body, but there was something much more than this body to life, and that's when I ended up studying biology. But I didn't know there was a whole world of contemplative practice. I studied a little bit of Tai Chi when I was in college, and worked on a Suicide Prevention Center where I learned the importance of being tuned into emotions, but it wasn't until well, I mean, it's a long story, but the short version is, in college, I had a terrible accident, and I was working in Mexico, and the saddle on The horse I was using to go interview, someone went to the horse's belly, and I was dragged along the ground. And in that experience, you know, I was my face was fairly damaged. I hurt my arm, but I lost my identity. That was the big thing. And I never, you know, my identity came back after about 24 hours of recovering from the head injury. But I never really thought about that much until many years later, I was asked to teach on my first mindfulness panel at a, you know, like a three day conference with Jack Kornfield. The others included Roger Walsh and also, I think Houston Smith, yeah, was there. So it was a big, you know, people steeped in meditation and religious training. Houston Smith is, you know, he just passed, but he was a leader in understanding cross religious studies, so I was fascinated with it. But Jack took me to lunch before that conference, and said, How'd you learn about this mindfulness stuff? And I said, I said, I don't know anything about this mindfulness stuff. He goes, No, you do? You do? I said, Well, I've never studied it. And I told him about the horse accident, and I hadn't mentioned the horse accident to anyone like in all those years. And you know, he and I had to go off and do our own thing. But he calls me later. I was finishing a book called Mindsight then, and he calls me when I was writing. He goes, You know, I can't stop thinking about what you said. I said, What? What are you thinking about? He goes, the horse accident. I said, Why are you thinking about the horse? Actually goes, you kind of fell into by accident. You know what people will meditate for decades to achieve? And I said, I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean, break your nose and lose your teeth and break your arm? Why would he goes, No, and he starts laughing. He goes, You don't know what I'm talking about, do you I said, No. And also No, I don't know what I mean. He goes, I mean, lose your personal identity. And I said, Oh, well, why would someone want to do that? He laughs and laughs, he goes, You know, this is the whole issue of mindfulness. Is about identity, and people often think of it as stress reduction. And, you know, way of dealing with challenges. But you know, through my relationship with Jack, and since that time, that was about 10 years ago, you know, or more that must have been 15 years ago. You know, I've learned a lot about the contemplative practice of mindfulness and mindful awareness training and and I'm, you know, tries to stay current on the research, so I don't know Casey, when I would say I learned that there was something called mindfulness, except Mary Hartzell and I used that word in our book Parenting from the inside out, and people told us to meditate. And at that time, this was 2004 I didn't know anything about meditation, and so I happened to be put on a panel with Jon Kabat Zinn, and it's the most hilarious thing if you ever listen to the recording of that panel at the psychotherapy networker in 2005 because I don't know anything about mindfulness, and it's really clear. And John says, Jon Kabat Zinn says, You don't know anything about mindfulness. I go, I know. And I said, I but I've read your book. I guess he had one book out at that time, and I've read. Your maybe two books, and I've read your one paper or two papers of Richie Davidson. And what's weird is that secure attachment seems to create the same results as your mindfulness based stress reduction training. And here, you know, and it overlaps with integration of the brain. And so that was the beginning for me, of you know, getting in a relationship with Jack Kornfield and Jon Kabat Zinn and them telling me, You got to get, you know, some direct experience meditating. I said, okay, and I had been working on this thing called the wheel of awareness before that, but I never would have called that a meditation. It was just like an integration of consciousness practice that I would have called, just like I do, you know desensitization or internal focus. I call it reflective practice, you know.
Casey O'Roarty 10:45
So you're working, you're working on the wheel of awareness, and you're not necessarily thinking of it as a mindfulness tool. Oh, no, that is so interesting. No,
Dr. Dan Siegel 10:54
no. I thought of it as a integration of consciousness sort of foray. Because, you know, in the 90s,
Casey O'Roarty 11:02
that sounds so much, but that's like, so integration of consciousness, like, isn't that what I mean? Wouldn't that to me, that seems like it would be the definition of mindfulness, almost like an integration of consciousness. Well, it's
Dr. Dan Siegel 11:15
so interesting, because when I did my first actual meditation retreat in 2005 I had been developing the wheel and using it on patients in the 90s. And I remember when I designed the table. It was in my new office in the late 90s. And even my patients who were came from my old office, the new office, who started doing the wheel around this table. I said, Look at this. We could integrate consciousness. Because I, you know, people were asking me when I was giving lectures like, what's, what's this integration thing, how do you actually apply it? And I said, Well, there's a bunch of domains of integration. And one of them is, you know, memory. You want to integrate memory. Another is narrative, where I was trained as a narrative researcher in the late 80s, you know, and so I was working on all these domains of integration, and consciousness seemed necessary for change. So then I thought, well, if you need consciousness for change, and integration is health. What would happen if you integrated consciousness? So then I asked people to get off their, you know, their seat on the couch or the chair, and up to the table. And we would then walk around this table and say, Okay, let's integrate consciousness. And, yeah, so, but it wasn't, it was, I was really trying to see if you could apply the concept of integration in therapeutic ways. That's, that's where it came from. So it was pretty natural as a therapist to, you know, focus attention on particular things like narrative integration. You know, you do a deep dive into memory, emotions, bodily sensations. So, I mean, to do a reflective practice that was more formally integrating stuff. I this is gonna sound strange, but if the table wasn't there, I don't know if I would have gotten the visual image of a wheel. I mean, when you see this table, it's just like, it's got a clear center. And now I designed the table, so maybe I was non consciously thinking, like, this would be kind of cool. I was just thinking about, actually, for the feng shui of this new office, like I didn't want people to walk into the office. I literally wanted them to have the feeling, like you walk into this office, you see this table, but the rim is something you can't see through, like when you first walk in. But as you your eyes continue along the table, you dive into the glass and you see deeper. I said, yeah, that's, that's the table I want to design. So I designed it, and that's what started the whole thing.
Oh, I
Casey O'Roarty 13:49
love it. I love it. And I like small Jack Kornfield story. I saw him speak years ago as well, and on Buddhism. And I didn't, I mean, I kind of had like a very surfacey understanding of Buddhism, and as I'm listening to him, it was so profound. And I waited, similar to how I did with you when I finally slid you my card to come on my show, I waited for my turn to talk to him, and I finally got to talk to him, and I just said. All I could say was, I didn't know that I was a Buddhist, and I started to cry. And he was just this really special, sweet. He wrapped his arms around me, and was just so tender. And, man, he's a special, special person.
Dr. Dan Siegel 14:35
So, yeah, he loved that guy, fantastic. And, and that moment on the phone when he was laughing his head off, you know? And he when I finally said, so losing your personal identity is what Buddhism is about. And I said, I guess I can get a feeling for that or something. And then he I said, I've always been alone, but I kind of feel like we're connecting around something. And he said, Welcome to the family. You know, it was it was it was great, but. Yeah, you know, this is the, the fun thing I think about this becoming aware book, because it takes, you know, the AWARE book, which we talked about before. You know, I'm a therapist, and I'm also a scientist and so, and I'm also a theoretician, you know. So I'm always building a theory, this thing called Interpersonal Neurobiology with my colleagues, you know about what is the mind and what is, you know, health and stuff like that. So integration for us is is well being, and you can apply that to ecosystems, or you could apply it to family systems, or you could apply it to an individual in a body. So we just look for any ways of understanding integration and the mind and health and stuff like that. So all of that was like the background to, you know, writing this book, aware, where, you know, I had done the wheel with patients, and then with students, and then with people in workshops, and before the pandemic hit, you know, we were able to get to 50,000 people in person to do the wheel. So I had a lot of recordings of how they said the experience was for them. And then people, of course, email us about how doing the wheel was transforming their lives, or their therapy practice or whatever. So then people the wear book, you know, I was able to go full throttle and just put everything on my mind about the origin of consciousness in the quantum realm of reality. And right before aware came out, you know, the month before on the cover of Scientific American was this whole thing about the quantum realm versus the Newtonian realm, which is exactly what the whole book aware was about. So I said, Oh my God. What incredible timing. And at the same time, there are long time meditators who don't feel so comfortable with math, they don't like to talk about physics, they don't like to hear about quantum realms and all stuff. So this book is really the nuts and bolts of how to do the wheel practice. And if you're someone who doesn't want to hear about the quantum origin of consciousness proposal that's in the AWARE book, you don't get it at all in there. So it's, I don't want to use the word intimidating, but it's the AWARE book for some people who just don't grok the math of probability. This, it doesn't have any of that. So there's nothing intimidating about it. And you're doing the practice. How's it going for you? The 21 day practice?
Casey O'Roarty 17:27
Yeah, I'm doing the practice. I'm loving the practice. I just discovered where. So for me, you know, I first discovered wheel of awareness when I read whole brain child. You talked about it in whole brain child, it, I couldn't really connect with it at that point. I knew it was a thing. You talked more about it in brainstorm power and purpose of the teen brain. Who those are my people? Now that's really where you know the listeners are sitting is in these teen years. And it started to make more sense to me. And then talking to you about aware the book really landed it, but this is next level. Wow. I love that it's distilled down, you know, because you're super smart and you know a lot of big words, and you share them freely in your books. But this helps those of us that you know aren't quite at that level of scientific understanding to really take it and do something with it. So it's making a difference in my day to day, in my and I've actually it's corresponded with a couple of really full intense weeks, which was not planned, but it's been so useful just in keeping my baseline as low as it or as neutral as it can be, as I navigate all there is to do and, and and be with, with my family and with my work. So, yeah, it's been really powerful. I'm day 14, so I'm getting ready tomorrow. I'll start week three. Wow.
Dr. Dan Siegel 18:57
And what have you noticed? Casey, what you say you've noticed some shifts? What can you share those with this? Well, on
Casey O'Roarty 19:03
some some of it is like, I'm I'm a very I noticed that I so when I was reflecting today, actually, I have my journal right here. The the invitation was to reflect on the meditation the different parts of the rim and how it is showing up in life. And so, for example, like body sensations was has been really powerful for me this week, because my son has been sick and my husband went through cancer treatment in 2020 so like covid is always kind of like, oh God, nobody get covid more than the average person, I would say. And every day, when I do the body sensation, part of the rim, which is really focusing listeners on the internal right, the bone. And the muscles and the organs and the systems I always pause. I always make sure to spend time being away as aware as I can be, bringing into my awareness my immune system, and really pouring out gratitude for how hard my body is fighting to stay healthy and just really holding that every day, and I so and I haven't gotten sick, you know, from my son, we don't have a huge house, he's around everywhere, you know, but I haven't gotten sick. And I actually even encouraged him the other night to before he was going to sleep, I said, you know, I've been doing this thing, and it might sound kind of funny, but just play with it. You know, before you go to bed tonight, just put your hands on your heart and think about your immune system and just be grateful, because your immune system is working really hard. He's 16, right? I'm telling saying this to my 16 year old, so working super hard this week, and just maybe throw throw out some gratitude and and we'll just see what happens, right? And so that's one place that's been really potent. The other place is and this is an epiphany that I had around being aware of our mental activity versus being inside of our mental activity. And I thought the other day, I was thinking to myself, you know why? It's because that part of the rim is slippery for me, right? That's the place where it's really easy to move out of awareness and just into experience, I guess would be a word that I would use. And I realized, oh, a great metaphor for this is like the difference between holding up a hanger with a sweater on it and noticing the sweater and seeing all the different, you know, details of the sweater, versus putting it on and just going about your day and it, you know, there might be something that's itchy or scratchy, but it's not but it's just kind of integrated into the experience, versus being able to look at it and really see the finer details. And so that practice, the mental activity, practice, has really heightened my awareness of when I turn towards the automatic like, I if I have a lot of work to do, I'll start, and then I have this pattern of, like, you know, I'm even just writing your outline yesterday, right? Writing your outline yesterday. I got about a third of the way through, and I thought to myself, I wonder what there is to eat, or maybe I should check my email, right? Like, just totally my my brain just totally pulling me out of the experience and taking me into distraction, but being more aware of what was happening when it was happening, and being able to then say, Oh, come on back case, we're gonna finish what we're doing. So, you know, just that ever growing awareness, even if it's not necessarily, you know, being more present and attentive and mindful, it's more of like noticing where I'm not when I'm being pulled out and when I'm being distracted and and the interconnected rim. So I had a really profound experience with that recent well, and I discovered so listeners, good news, there's resources where Dan is actually guiding the meditation, the mindful, the wheel practice. And I just discovered that I'd been I had set up some bells on Insight Timer, and I had a whole system worked out for myself. And then I finally found your guided meditations, and so I used that yesterday, and when you guided me through the interconnectedness piece and being present with who was close in proximity to me, and then family, and then community and state, country, world, I felt this. It was like a it was like this. It was a physical experience of expansion and weight. But it wasn't weight like, oof weight. It was like, it was like, if profound, if the word profound, had a physical experience that went along with it. That's how it felt. It just I, the connectedness that I felt going through that was just so big, so big, and that's just stayed with me. Yeah, that's my lowdown on how things are going.
Dr. Dan Siegel 24:27
Wow. That is great to upload that for your lowdown. It was so beautiful. That's so beautiful. It's amazing. I don't know if you've experienced this yet, but you know every day when I do the wheel because it's a daily practice for me. You know too, that, you know, it's different. You know, every day is different, and it allows you kind of this freshness of just being there with the practice and and then, you know, all these different parts, like the interconnection part is, which it ends with, is, you. Has this kind of, I love the way you're describing the physical sensation of profound that's such a beautiful image, yeah. And it is. It is interesting when we try to put words to these non worded experiences. And I think you know, when you asked, How did mindfulness start for me? And it turned out to be kind of a wordless thing at that loss of personal identity. But the wheel, in a way, lets you expand that personal identity so you don't just lose it. It's it's almost like it as you're saying it, you feel this profound sense of gratitude and compassion for everything, and awe these self you know, expanding emotions as at the same time as you feel, kind of, I don't know if you've had this experience yet, because you're doing week two now, but when you get to week three, I won't, we'll, we'll see how it goes there. There are shifts in the next stages of the practice that let you go even wider and deeper and broader, you know, in that whole thing you're describing. So I'll just, we'll leave it at that so, and that's a report back. Yeah, because please do, because the practice is just unique to you as an individual. This was so fun about this book, becoming aware is it leaves space for you to write down some notes, and it it makes it very practical to learn it. And I guess partly because, you know, I'm a dad, and partly because, you know, I'm a person, and also that partly because I'm an educator and a therapist, all those things. In addition to being this kind of science person, it's so important to translate the profound complexity into practical steps that people can take, whether it's in a classroom or a therapy session or in a book. And so I was really thrilled that becoming aware could be that way. You know, I'm always intrigued at how, in a way, you know, the way I think about writing is, it's a relational experience. You know, it's even though you as the writer are putting in these words down on a page, and the reader, of course, is, you know, spatially separated from you, and time wise, separated from when you were writing. I still think of it as a relationship that you really as a writer, you really think about, how do I reach into the mind of the reader exactly where they are, even though I'm not seeing this person in front of me, but I can imagine where they might be. And so it's always an interesting challenge. And this next book I'm just finishing in the next couple of days, actually, you know is has been about what the wheel invites us to experience, which is, you know, who are we? What is our identity? And as an adolescent, you know, this is what I tried to describe and brainstorm. You know, it's all open for exploration and and if in childhood you were kind of soaking in how people said the world is and how how you are in the world, Adolescence is actually quite different from that. It's where you're given the opportunity from inside how your brain is remodeling, maybe not from what school is saying, but your inner shifts are giving you the opportunity to say, not just how is the world, but how could the world be, and how could I be in that world? And then how might I try to support the world becoming in these ways that I think, not only could it be, maybe how it should be, and that's, I think, for all of us to remember that the world may be a certain way now, but we can be a part of its helpful transformation. And something like the wheel of awareness, I think, gives you the inner resilience and also that interconnectivity, to say, Yeah, I'm not just alone. I'm in this, you know, on a journey together, you know, with Casey, with Dan, with all these other people who you know would be on a similar path.
Casey O'Roarty 29:10
Yeah, and when I think about adolescents right now, we just actually did a book club of brainstorm this summer with my membership community, so it's top of mind. And I have two teens as well, 16 year old and an 18 year old and talking to parents. So you mentioned identity a couple times, and so, yes, like this practice for adolescents so powerful, especially right now, because there's so much information that is, I mean, these kids, you know what they are living through right now with, you know, the pandemic, the social unrest, the climate crisis, right? And they're mainlining information from not always credible sources. Yeah, and the discouragement is really real, and so I really appreciate how optimistic things can be with a practice like this, to keeping them connected to possibility and and tapping into that creative exploration that is happening during this time where they are thinking out of the box and they are pushing the envelope of what's possible. I also think about the parents right being one and sitting with like the way that identity can get so wrapped up in what is happening with our our teens especially. And I think that's one of the places where we get into the most mischief, is when we are, you know, so overly invested and overly identified as this person's parent, we can really stifle their growth and development. And so a practice like the wheel of awareness, I feel like, gives us a more neutral place to sit as our teens navigate what is developmentally appropriate rough terrain and make sense of who they are in the world and the impact that they want to make. Yeah,
Dr. Dan Siegel 31:13
exactly. And it's it's neutral in a really receptive, open, loving way, yes. So yeah. And in that sense, you know, we come with this kind of, just to use the wheel metaphor, you know, this resource of the hub of that wheel, kind of what you'll be experiencing a lot more next week, Casey. And you know, in hearing from the 1000s of people who've done the wheel, and then trying to figure out, why do people experience what they do in that hub? You know, it is that neutral, open, loving, kind of receptive space that you know as a person on the planet. It's like, oh my gosh. Wouldn't that be incredible if people could tap into that for their own inner resilience, whether you're a parent of an adolescent or anyone else or or you're just a person in the world, or you're going through adolescence yourself, and you're going, wow. They told me the world was that way when I was a kid, but now my eyes are opening. I realize this world is not what I thought it was. Wow. And you know, people talk about the volatility and uncertainty and complexity, the ambiguity, you know, not knowing exactly what things mean, and getting all this misinformation sometimes. So it's a moment where we need an inner practice, whether it's the wheel or some other thing that helps you, you know, focus attention, open your awareness and build kindness. Those ways you can train your mind that way. I think when you look at ancient practices, contemplative practices, or indigenous teachings, you know that are literally 1000s of years old, and you combine them with a, you know, a new view, not that you absolutely need it. But I personally think it's great when different ways of approaching reality come together, you know, in something we call consilience, then it's awesome that you can actually see the science beneath indigenous wisdom and the science beneath contemplative teachings, which basically says that if you think the self is completely separate, which in modern culture, we're given, that message, there's all sorts of medical problems in your body that can emerge from isolation and disconnection. And in our society, what that means is you can participate, sadly, unintentionally, with social injustice and racism and for the planet, if you see human beings as a separate from nature, well, then if you say, hey, my job is to get wealthy. I have an idea to build a factory. Okay, I'm building a factory. The factory is going to bring me money by selling stuff that I build. Well, I'll build it here in a forest. Well, I don't care about the forest, because that's not my bank account, you know. And that individualism and that only thinking about material acquisition that goes along with individualism, you know, it is responsible for the loss of all the different species we're losing, and the terrible challenges we have to the health of our environment. So even that is related to this isolated you can call it a solo self. So in some ways, the wheel of awareness builds inner resilience. It has these three pillars, you know that we talk about focused attention, open awareness and kindness, and literally, it will help your brain become stronger by being more integrated. And five physiological changes of health, you know, improving the immune system, lowering stress, you know, making your heart healthier, reducing even inflammation. And then optim. An enzyme that repairs and maintains the ends of your chromosomes. All that stuff has been proven with three pillar practice, you know these three pillars you do, which the wheel has all three in it. And so then you go, Wow, I'm going to get my body healthier. And in addition, I'm going to open up my sense of who I am, to have it not disappear, but actually expand, yeah, and all the research shows that that's associated with well being, not just inside of you, but in your relationships with people and with nature.
Casey O'Roarty 35:36
It's so profound, and I think about people who struggle with the idea of meditation, and I say a lot of I use a lot of words. I'll say a stillness practice or an awareness practice, or trying to support parents in wrapping their head around this thing that they might have preconceived notions about, and something else that has happened in my practice through working with becoming aware, and you said it that wordless piece. So I noticed when I was tapping into the five senses right that rim at the beginning of the of the practice the first week or so, not struggling so much, but it just because was kind of a thing I was doing. I was immediately putting words to like what I could hear, right, putting words to the visuals that I was getting, putting words to the senses that were showing up. And then as I kept doing the work, kept writing to the prompts, something clicked in me, and I just sat with it wasn't about labeling. I realized, like, Oh, I'm labeling. I'm actually thinking while I'm doing this practice. So what happens if I stop labeling? I stop analyzing, I stop creating story around what's coming up as I focus on each of the five senses, and the shift was huge. It was such a different experience. And so the language you use is fill your awareness with right? Let's fill your awareness with, you know, aroma and smell, or fill your awareness so can you tease apart what you know filling your awareness means to you
Dr. Dan Siegel 37:28
sure you know, in the image of a wheel, you have this ability to visualize, well, in our office, it's a table, but no one wants to Call the table of awareness. So this wheel of awareness, you know, where you can visualize a hub and then a rim, and so anything you can be aware of like a sound, if I say hello, Casey, that sound we would represent in the metaphor of the rim of the wheel. But when you know that sound, when you're aware of that sound, we'd represent that awareness, that knowing, in the hub of the wheel. Then when you would be doing, you know, I call it a reflective practice. But I think the word meditation, you know, literally means, you know, just training the mind. So, you know, any way we train the mind as a kind of meditation, but some people have certain connotations of that word meditation, so it kind of makes them nervous, or they think it's a religious belief or a practice, or something religious practice and but meditation just means training the mind, so I call it A reflective practice, or an integration of consciousness, practice, whatever, whatever word. It's the same notion that, here's the idea, you're focusing attention with this visual metaphor of a spoke. And if you can picture the idea that from the hub of the wheel, you've directed it to the first segment of the rim for sound and the experience of hearing. So then the phrase, fill awareness with sound. I mean to me, what you're literally doing is in the metaphor, you're saying, let the energy flow of the air molecules moving, the kinetic energy of air molecules moving, is what sound is, and you're letting that be the energy flow that you're going to focus on in awareness. Now, filling awareness means in the brain. If you wanted to do a brain thing, that you're taking the the networks that are involved in the air, hitting your your eardrum, and that goes through what's called the acoustic nerve, the eighth cranial nerve, and it goes into the side areas of the brain on the left and right side, in part of something called the temporal lobe, and that's being activated with sound. Okay, no big deal. You then do a kind of a harmonic. Sweep is what we think happens where you then say, Okay, I'm going to fill awareness with sound right now. So you then literally can direct this sweep through the brain that collects, essentially, in an integrated way, what's happening in this temporal lobe sound areas, and just sweeping that into the experience. There's a lot of controversy around what it is, but essentially, you're integrating a bunch of different areas simultaneously, and we achieve a certain level of linking differentiate areas. That's what integration means. Then it enters awareness. But you're sweeping, you're doing the sweep through the temporal lobe, so you're okay. Then if I say, okay, Casey, now let sound go. And now imagine moving the spoke of attention over to the next point on the rim for light and the sensation of sight. And then we say, let light fill awareness. So in the visual metaphor you've now moved the spoke over, it's on the point on the first segment of the rim for, you know, sight. What is that? It's photons, literally bouncing around the room, coming into your eyes. And then, if we do the brain side of it, it goes not only through the eyes, it goes and it crosses, it doesn't matter the details, but it ultimately gets back to the occipital cortex, the back of your brain. So now what you're doing is you're directing, probably with your prefrontal cortex behind your forehead. You're directing the sweep to sweep in the occipital cortex in the back of your brain, not the sides for sound, but you're really focusing attention, which is the sweeping process on what's going on for what we described as sight, which comes from light. And so then we say, let light fill awareness in the brain. You're saying, direct attention to the stuff in the occipital lobe, and let that be what you experience in consciousness, right? Consciousness and awareness being, yeah, the same thing. So that's, I hope that answers the question. When we say fill awareness, it's different from pay attention or notice or observe, because that adds another dimension of I'm an observer observing what I'm hearing. I'm an observer observing what I'm seeing. No, we don't, we don't need an I am observing just the experience of seeing by light filling awareness.
Casey O'Roarty 42:33
Yeah, and I love the language of the sweep. Like to me, that is really helpful, because it it feels like this opening up, and that distinction you just made around I am listening or I am seeing versus being inside. It's almost like being inside of the senses. Yeah, that's how it's it feels to me like it's being inside of the senses, being inside of the sensations of the body for the next segment, again, the mental practices are trickier. They
Dr. Dan Siegel 43:10
are for me, you're gonna get to those and you know, they're trickier for everybody, because we have a very dominant, what's called Default Mode Network of the brain, this midline area, you know, which has a lot of chatter. It's thinking a lot. It's remembering. It's saying, I am Casey and I am doing this wheel of awareness practice. And I am, I am, I am, I am. All the eyes that, you know, we sort of take for granted. Well, of course, I am doing this, but it's actually a construction. And so what the wheel helps you do, especially as I try to word things exactly like you're saying, like fill awareness, not because when I when I first, later on, after the wheel was something we were doing in these therapy sessions, and I started doing it myself. Then, you know, I took actual meditation, you know, retreats, and did it. And the teachers would sometimes say, observe your breath. And I'm going, I don't I don't want to observe my breath. I want to sense my breath. But they would never say that, and I was kind of perplexed by that. Or they would say, notice your breath, which, okay. I mean, you can interpret notice as pay attention to your breath and that, but it still has a quality of someone is noticing rather than just feel your breath, you know, let the feeling feel awareness. So it seems subtle, but when you get to the mental activities that you're talking about, it really makes a difference, because then you've had the experience in these first two segments of just filling awareness with whatever it is. Now the hub has distinguished itself enough from the rim that you're really prepared to try the experience of let a thought fill awareness and then people. Often go, aren't I my thoughts? And you go, well, see what it feels like. And they go, Oh my God, there's a space. I don't know what it is exactly, but the thought is entering the space, and then the thought is going away, and then an emotion comes in, and then the emotion goes away, and a memory comes in, and memory goes away, but what's remaining is what? It's a knowing. It's an awareness thing. It's a it's being aware. Oh my god, there's a hub that's distinct from the rim, even for mental activities. And then people's minds are usually blown wide open, and then they go, I just like, developed a superpower. Yeah, right? Because, yeah, I could be really mad at a friend, and instead of just calling them up or texting them and impulsively pressing send, I'm in my hub and I go, you know, I am angry, but the outcome of sending this really nasty text is not really in the long run what I want, even though I really want to press send.
Casey O'Roarty 45:58
Oh my gosh. I mean, the experience of parenting teenagers, this is a huge superpower, to be able to step back and recognize what's happening and pause long enough to not do damage that you then need to clean up, right? And this
Dr. Dan Siegel 46:15
is where, even just the visual image, we teach this, even in kindergarten, it's, you know, where the kids will say, I'm lost on my rim. Give me a break. I got to go back to my hub, you know, because this is the, this is the space of awareness that actually gives us choice in life. Yes, right. So this is
Casey O'Roarty 46:35
lost on the rim. I love that language. I'm lost on the rim. Give me a second. And
Dr. Dan Siegel 46:40
for sure, and even I know in my own life, my personal life, you know, it's been so powerful to, you know, work with family issues going on, or even, even as you get older and you face illnesses, or like in your family, like all of our families, we're facing tough times to be able to have a place of peace. It's a sanctuary. And, you know? And so this is what's been so interesting about the wheel of awareness as a practice that came from pure scientific reasoning. It was like, okay, integration is health. Fine, consciousness is good and needed for change. Fine. What if you put the two together an integrated consciousness, by differentiating the hub from the rim and then systematically linking them with the spoke, you're integrating consciousness and suddenly, boom, people are getting all the you're getting over anxiety, mild to moderate depression. They're dealing with traumas in a more effective way. You're growing up and developing this resilience. And then it turns out it's got the three pillars that research independently was showing all these physiological improvements, and it integrates your brain the three pillar practice, but the three pillars are in the wheel. So that's kind of like, wow, when I when I realized that with writing aware, it was like, Whoa. That was that worked out? Okay,
Casey O'Roarty 48:01
yeah, that's big. That's big. So
Dr. Dan Siegel 48:05
yeah. And so this is the fun thing, and this is what I think blows everyone's mind, but especially in adolescence. When I say to adolescents in high schools and middle school, I said, look where attention goes, neural firing flows, and neural connection grows. And what that means is you, not your parents, not your teachers, not your friends, you are the one in charge of your attention, and when you stream attention into awareness, you can actually choose to integrate your brain and get a stronger, stronger mind, or you can choose not to do that. It's up to you. Yeah, no one's going to tell you to do it or not. It's your choice, and if you choose, here's some really simple steps. They come from pure, you know, reasoning and a practical sort and it's just something you can visualize and do if you choose to. But no one's going to make you do it, because it's only up to you where your attention goes, and you can shape the firing or activity of your brain. And when you do that, you will shape how your structural changes in the brain grow as you go through adolescence. So you make a choice, do you want to have an integrated brain and have resilience, or do you not want those things?
Casey O'Roarty 49:19
Yeah, and they get to decide. Yeah, and
Dr. Dan Siegel 49:20
they choose and say, I don't want to find cool. At least you were informed, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 49:26
exactly. Go for it, you
Dr. Dan Siegel 49:27
know, do whatever you want, but this is your, you know, because it really is a time. This is what I love about adolescence so much. It is a time of empowerment, you know, and it's a it's an incredible time of wonderful growth. And people have, you know, I remember when I was in pediatrics, or even when I went into child and adolescent psychiatry, people would say all these despairing things about adolescents, and I would say, I think you got it reversed. The really despairing thing is that adults have lost the essence of their adolescence, and they're so serious and they. Lost their passion. They're so fixed in things, and they've also lost connections with people, and they're not creatively exploring stuff. You know that essence, which spells the word essence, emotional spark, social engagement, novelty seeking and having that courage and creative exploration. Adolescence is this incredible time, and the key to living a great adulthood is don't give up that essence of adolescence. And if you're an adult listening to this, you can get it back.
Casey O'Roarty 50:29
Yeah, Dan's got a great book for that,
Dr. Dan Siegel 50:31
the brainstorm book. You know, adults can read it too, but I wrote it for adolescence, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 50:35
well, and I think too. I mean, everything you just said too about adolescents, and this is a whole other conversation I'm recognizing, but it breaks my heart to see how parents can misguidedly see the typical development as character flaws, when in fact, the kids are just moving through the journey like it is empowering, Right? It is an empowering time. And empowering doesn't necessarily mean, you know, straight A's, valedictorian, captain of the football team. Like being empowered also means like, I am separate from you, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand in my power and it, you know, anyway, I'm gonna have to have you back on to talk brainstorm.
Dr. Dan Siegel 51:19
Well, that's, you know, you know Casey, I think you're really talking about this internal compass and the wheel of awareness, you know, actually helps you cultivate an internal compass. So, yeah, you know our son, you know, Alex Siegel. You know he does music that you can listen on Spotify and all that stuff. But when you hear his songs, you can feel that internal compass manifests in a song. Or, you know, our daughter's exploring, you know her, her work in environmental protection in graduate school, you can feel that in her, this internal compass, this doesn't come from nowhere. I mean, it's part of their temperament. They both have, you know, certain ways of being in the world, and it's something you can cultivate. It's something to honor this internal way. And this is why we talk about a reflective practice. You know, the wheel allows you to really not only know what's going on inside, but to integrate what's going on inside, and that's the basis of health and happiness. So that's the gift, I think, that people can give themselves, that's the empowerment, and parents can support adolescents and younger children developing this. And you know, this is what's so fun about the metaphor of a wheel. It is really simple. You know, awareness is in the hub. What you're aware of is on the rim. You pay attention with your spoke, and that's it. And now let's, let's do a very simple move around the rim, and in the advanced stage, which you can get to next week, let's bend the spoke around and see what awareness itself is like. And that's it. I'm excited, but how long that take me to say a minute, I don't know, you know, so this is where it's like, wow. Can you imagine if we all had that opportunity to know ourselves so deeply and then to integrate our lives so fully that then we realized from the inside out, you know, how we can be kind and compassionate within ourselves and kind and compassionate within the selves that are living in other bodies and in nature, you know. And then life becomes a journey of discovery of how can I bring more connection and more compassion into the world? And you have that inner strength to do that.
Casey O'Roarty 53:39
Yes, love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for your work and your dedication to continuing to create and offer resources that are so useful to so many. Made a huge difference in my life and in the lives of my listeners and others.
Dr. Dan Siegel 53:58
Thank you for those comments.
Casey O'Roarty 53:59
Oh, you're welcome. I've asked you this question. This will be the third time I've asked you this question, but I always end my interviews with this question. Dr, Siegel, so what does joyful courage mean to you?
Dr. Dan Siegel 54:10
Well, you know, the notion of courage for me is the idea of, you know, novelty, seeking to really have this courage to see things fresh and new. And sadly, the more we learn you know, the less we see. And so it's kind of a courageous act to drop into that hub of that wheel, if you will, that open, spacious, receptive place of just saying, Gosh, I don't really know, but I'm really curious to find out more. So that's courage and joyful means, you know, and I know the world is really hard now, with the pandemic, the social injustice, climate issues, all this stuff going on, it's really hard. So no one's trying to minimize that. And at the same time, if. If you're listening to Casey and listening to me, you're alive, and what a privilege it is to be here, to be alive, to be able to take a breath and wherever you are in life, even if you're facing illness, to bring joy to me means to bring this sense of vitality and gratitude in this kind of, you know, realistically optimistic way, so joyful courage, then combines those two and says, I'm going to bring this kind of exuberance for life and be willing to not know and have the courage to just be open and connecting and embrace uncertainty as a window into freedom and possibility.
Casey O'Roarty 55:49
Thank you for that. Thank you for that. Where can people find you and find your book and follow your work? Where's the best place for them to
Dr. Dan Siegel 55:57
go? We have two linked websites, and I'll just give you both. That's probably the best. It's just Dr, Dan, so D, R, D, A, N, and then my last name, Siegel, s, I, E, G, E, l.com, is one website. And then the link is to the mind site, M, I, N, D, S, I, G, H, T, mindsightinstitute.com, and there you'll see a whole bunch of stuff you can get involved in. We have communities, we're building, and platforms for connecting and having conversations. We have courses. We have all sorts of fun, engaging stuff. And you can explore the wheel of awareness there too, and just stream it and do it or take an awareness course. There's all sorts of stuff to do, and there's a lot to do with a lot of hopefully joyful courage.
Casey O'Roarty 56:42
Love that. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. This was such a treat. Thank
Dr. Dan Siegel 56:46
you, Casey. Keep up the great work, and it's great to be with you.
Casey O'Roarty 56:56
Okay, well, that was amazing. Could you guys tell that I was totally fangirling. I love Dan Siegel. I made him keep his camera on so we could be talking to each other, because I record over zoom. So good. What a brilliant, brilliant man. So before I wrap this up today, I wanted to let you all know about the free seven day challenge that I am putting together for joyful courage parents of teens. It's called the holiday connection challenge. I think it might change. Maybe the name will be something different. But anyway, what it is isn't going to change. What it is is an opportunity to connect with me every day for seven days, and get tips and ideas about how to build deeper connections in your family, as well as strategies for creating the holiday season that you want. Okay, this is a free offer. For more information. Go to joyful courage.com/seven. Day Challenge and get signed up. You're going to get a guide. I'm going to create a guide for you that goes along with the seven days and more details about how to get the most out of it. We're going to start the challenge on December 1. It'll run December 1 through December 7. Again, go to joyful courage.com/seven day challenge. That's where you can sign up, and once you sign up, you will get all the details for this fun, free, engaging challenge. All right, I so appreciate you. If you have made it to episode 300 and you haven't left me a review yet, I'm not judging you, but would you do me a favor and head over to Apple podcasts and write one up. I work super hard each week, and I'm trying to make this huge impact on families. When you write a review, it increases the podcasts rankings and it increases the number of eyeballs it's put in front of in the podcasting apps, so I really need you to write those five star reviews. Please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Also follow me joyful, underscore courage on Instagram and Facebook. I love connecting with you on social media, and feel free to take a screenshot right now, right now in this moment, take a screenshot and post the episode in your social channels. Let people know that you're listening. Tag me in the post and I will reshare it out in my channels. All right. Have a beautiful week, my friends. I will be back next week with a solo show. Love, love, love you. Love you, love you. Bye.
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