Eps 282: Letting the Heart Lead with Sarah MacLaughlin

Where to find Sarah

Instagram | Twitter | FaceBook | Raising Humans with Heart book

 

 

What does joyful courage mean to you?

What comes to mind is really tied to what we’ve been talking about. The bitter and the sweet of these relationships with our kids. They’re so important to us and we have to be courageous to be able to let them go. They need roots and wings. We can’t keep them in a cage, we have to let them fly.

See you next week!! 🙂

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Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:03
Kay, Hello, friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of parenting teenagers. I am your host. Casey oberty, I am a positive discipline lead trainer, yes, that's new and exciting. I'm a positive discipline lead trainer, parent, coach and Mama walk in the path right next to you as I am perfectly raise my own two teens. Joyful courage is all about grit, growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning, as well as influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. As you listen in on today's show, pay attention to how grit shows up in the conversation. Also, if you're not already on my email list, now is the perfect time to join. I pop into my subscribers inbox with stories, podcast, news and offers. Every week, my hope is to make you laugh a little, or at least relate to what I have to share and keep you updated on all the joyful courage goodness. If you're into it, go to joyful courage.com/email and sign up. Signing up right now will get you the seven tips for connecting with your teens. I'll share with you seven tips over seven days that if you put them into practice, will make a difference in your relationship with your kids. Each day you'll get an action step and a bonus step. If you're feeling like an overachiever again, that's joyful courage.com/email. Sign up and stay more connected. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you. So grateful to hear that what I put out matters to you, and so excited to keep it coming. If you love this show, please take a screenshot and share it on your social media. Let your friends know you're listening and find value in the podcast. Tag me and I will reshare it in my media channels as well. All right, enjoy the show.

Hello, listeners. My guest today is Sarah McLaughlin. Sarah is a social worker, parent educator and author of the award winning, best selling book. What Not To Say tools for talking with your children. She is a writer, trainer and content expert for zero to three, a national nonprofit dedicated to ensuring that all babies and toddlers have a strong start in life. Sarah maintains a blog, writes the parenting toolbox column for Portland Maine's parent and family, and has been featured many places online, including the Huffington Post and this podcast you'll remember Sarah from episode 20 and 5230 I know 20. Did I say 20? Did I said 30 before

Sarah MacLaughlin 3:03
you said? You said 30 before? Thank God, that's why I interrupted you, so you can do it

Casey O'Roarty 3:07
again. Yeah, no, 30 and again. I think listeners need to know they are not the only ones with pandemic race. Okay,

Sarah MacLaughlin 3:17
you told me 30 and I wrote it down about maybe I got it wrong.

Casey O'Roarty 3:19
Listen, we like to keep it real here. Her latest book is called Raising humans with heart, and is a loving and valuable resource for moms, dads and caregivers everywhere. This is what we're talking about today. Hi Sarah, welcome back to the podcast.

Sarah MacLaughlin 3:36
Thank you, Casey. Hi.

Casey O'Roarty 3:39
We're keeping it so real. Yes, yes. And listeners, you need to know that Sarah and I are, for sure, sisters from another mister. Because every time we talk to each other, we're like, Oh my gosh. We might have been at some places at the same time in our youth. We haven't tracked it all down yet. But anyway, so glad that you're back, so glad that you're here. Tell us about your new book, your new baby,

Sarah MacLaughlin 4:04
my new baby. I know I it was a two year gestation. So two years ago, I actually did some crowdfunding through an online digital agency to launch this book. I hadn't written it yet, and so the pandemic was just really a very perfect opportunity for me to to have to stay home and get this book written. So I was inspired by the quote from Jerry Paul, who was actually one of zero to three founding board members, which is where I work now. The quote is how you are is as important as what you do. And that just really grabbed me, and I couldn't, like, get it out of my head, and I thought it applied to parenting so much. You know, it's used in the workplace too. You know, it's a really nice thing to think about in the workplace. But as far as your parenting, I just kept coming back to, you know, there's W, E, E, B, du, bois quote that. You know, children might not learn from what you teach them, but they always learn from what you are, which is a very similar quote, and I just kept thinking about, no matter what kind of technique or, you know, tool or tip you're trying to put into practice with your kids, the who you are, the like, what's going on in your own body and how you're feeling about yourself is impacting your relationship with your kids. And just kind of wanted to write something, again, I love to write short books, short and sweet, and just something that would help reassure parents that if you're you're worried that you think you might be messing it up, you're probably doing just fine because you're thinking about it. It's in your consciousness. And, you know, I also shared some stories of the kind of keeping it real, moments from my own child when he was younger, with his permission, and just wanted to help parents, you know, feel supported in the work that they're doing. Yeah. How

Casey O'Roarty 5:56
old is your boy?

Sarah MacLaughlin 5:57
He just turned 13. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Welcome to the club. Thank you. I'm very, very excited to be welcome to the club, and it's very humbling. Parenting has been, you know, a humbling ride the whole way, but I'm sure that we're here again.

Casey O'Roarty 6:11
Yeah, I love those, both those quotes as well. And I think about it in terms of, it's not what we do, it's how we be, right. And when I think about teenagers, which, like I said, Welcome, you know, their bullshit radar is so fine tuned, and I noticed when I'm even just last night, I was teaching a class with a group of parents of tweens and teens, and we did an activity that kind of contrasted two different ways to respond to back talk. So the first being back, talking back, which we're all really good at, right? And the other being, you know, showing up differently, you know, kind of pushing aside the angst that we're feeling that our kids dare talk to us this way, and getting really curious about like, Whoa, what is going on with you? And so there was this list of of statements and questions, and I really wanted to land for them. It's not necessarily that you have to say these things. It's deeper than that. It's being inside of a body that is recognizing one the trigger, right? Like, whoa. That bothers me to be talked to like that. And I'm not going to get hooked by that. I'm going to get curious instead about what's behind it and propelling it, you know, like, towards me. So that kind of, yeah, that reminds me, and oh my gosh, right? Like, first, yes, being aware of the fact that, whoa, I'm that really felt very disrespectful, and recognizing that and pausing before your own disrespect comes flying out of your mouth. Yeah, said than done.

Sarah MacLaughlin 7:56
Well, absolutely. And what, what is such a beautiful thing in that moment, which is, you know, that's the thing that you and I and so many other people who do this work are trying to teach, is that if you just join them there, you're not you're just teaching them that you that's what you do. If somebody speaks disrespectfully for you, then it's okay to turn around and blast them back right then that's what you're modeling. And the piece about modeling is just so it's the, you know, I joke that it's the good news and the bad news, right? That our kids are always watching us. So it's such a beautiful thing in that moment, if you can stop and pause and take a breath and get curious. I've been talking with other people, and we've been that same exact, exact term, just like being able to pause enough to be curious about what is going on here and and for I know your listeners are probably, you know, parent more, parents of older kids, but for parents of younger kids too, and maybe this applies for older kids too, to say out loud your process, if this is new for you, yeah, because if you can, maybe you can pull off, getting that pause in and getting that curiosity going without having to, like, coach yourself through it, then you're doing great, because I still am, like, literally saying out loud, wow, that is a really hard tone to hear. Hmm. I'm going to take a deep breath before I say anything back. And sometimes I'll even say that, like, I'm what I want to do is be nasty back, or I feel like punishing you right now, which is something I don't do. So, so I'm going to just take a breath, because that's not where I want to go and and that's all great modeling too, because it's hard, right? And it illustrates how hard it is because I'm decades older than him, and I'm still struggling to do it right, like my brain is fully formed, and I have a level of maturity that he doesn't have, and I am personally still struggling. And so I feel like that that helps me have compassion and bring empathy and curiosity to my child's behavior too, like, because then I remember, oh yeah, he has a 13 year old brain. I think about some of my behavior and choices that I've made at 13, and it's like, oh yeah. This makes. Totally perfect sense, right? Not a surprise, not it shouldn't be a surprise, but it catches us up guard, because they were so sweet some sometimes, and they can still be so sweet, and then all of a sudden they're not, and you're like, Whoa. What just happened? Right? It's

Casey O'Roarty 10:13
like a personal affront, like, right? I

Yeah, and I get that, I get that, I get that wave of, you know, and it's so funny because, like, last night, we're going through this, you know, the first round is this list of, like, how dare you talk to me like that? I do you need to go to military school, which I've never actually said that, but I definitely have been like, how could I can't believe you're talking to me like this. Like, what did I do for you earlier today? So much of the first round, everybody's like, kind of cringing, because it's like, Oh yeah, I'm familiar with that language. And then learning how to shift. And I love what you said about speak it out loud. I absolutely think that it's probably, I mean, it's equally, if not more important for our teenagers to hear us say, like, Okay, I'm feeling all the feels right now, so I'm going to take care of myself. And let's come back to this conversation when we're both, you know, feeling regulated. I think absolutely we need to not only model it, but speak it. I also think like sometimes, if we're, you know, like I told my class last night, if this is a drastic shift from your parenting style, let your kids in on your work, you know, let them know. Like, I have been kind of a dictator, and I'm realizing it's made an impact on our relationship. And I'm going to be trying new things. And it might be kind of weird to you, but just roll with it. Yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 11:51
I know I tell people to say that to their younger kids. You know, I learned some new things about the brain that I didn't know, and some of the things that we've been doing in our home aren't aren't helping, and I didn't know that, and now I do, so I'm going to be trying to do things differently. But I think that's legitimate for a five year old or 15 year old, yeah, because we're only learning, yeah, yes. And what great modeling too. Like, I don't know everything, hello,

Casey O'Roarty 12:14
right? They already think that. So, yeah. So really, what you're talking about is an invitation for personal growth.

Sarah MacLaughlin 12:25
Yeah, it's, it really is, because one of my chapters is called the most important relationship you have is with yourself, yeah? Because I feel like it's who how we are with ourselves, and how we are in our own bodies, and if we're able to even connect with the present moment, are we spinning in our head with our to do list, like there's so many things about our own relationship with ourself. Are, you know, are we when we when we maybe don't catch ourselves and pause and we yell back? Are we then not able to apply any kind of like self compassion or self forgiveness, and then we're spinning out about guilting ourselves for the rest of the day, like all of these habits and patterns that we all have because we're imperfect growing humans, they impact the way that we interact with anybody but most, most specifically, our family members. And so the other thing I talk about is the subtitle of my book is not a how to manual. And so I talk about how we all come to parenting with a manual in our pocket that we may or may not be aware of, and that's the parenting we received. Because everybody on the planning, you know, hopefully got some sort of parenting, good, bad or ugly, right? We got parented in some way, and that is our template. That is what is guiding us, unless we bring awareness, consciousness, exploration, curiosity, to that manual and kind of dust it off and do some editing, right? Like, if it's a metaphorical book, and that's what's driving your knee jerk responses of, how dare you talk to me that way? Right? Like, that's,

Casey O'Roarty 13:55
I never would have been able to say that to my parents, you know, like, oh yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 14:01
yes, yes. And so dusting that off and taking a look and seeing what needs to be adjusted. And sometimes, you know, there's this piece about we want to raise kids who are going to be outspoken and independent and confident, but not right now, not in my face, not when I want you to empty the dishwasher without arguing with me about it, right? Like, and the maturity, knowing that the maturity will come later, I think it's like the messy middle where they are experimenting with a freedom, right? Like, we can't make them anymore, like we used to physically be able to make them. And if that's the kind of parenting that you were relying on when they were little, I tell parents of toddlers, don't do that now, because it's good. It's got an expiration date, let me tell you, because we can't make them right, and then we have to figure out how to navigate that. And there's just a lot of, there's a lot of trust involved there too, that, yeah. And I feel like the relationship, if you're, if you're focusing on the relationship and the connection, then you're going to get there, right? Yeah. And I'll, you know. Being cognizant of the modeling that you're that you're providing. We want them to learn how to be all of those wonderful, confident things. But we also want them to have relationship skills and that that gets practiced at home too, that conflict resolution and all of that good stuff.

Casey O'Roarty 15:14
Yeah, there's so many layers. It's so scaffolded. And I remember when things got really hard for me, I have a friend whose kids are her older kids are a few years ahead of my oldest. And I remember going to her so distraught. She happens to be a Reiki energy worker, so I was like, on the table, like, what's happening right now? Help me? And she said, you know, case it seems like 1415, really hard years, 16, 1718, they tend to come back around to you. And I just remember laying there with a 14 year old who was in crisis and feeling like, well, thanks. And, you know, doesn't really hit me right now.

Sarah MacLaughlin 16:02
It's really a long time,

Casey O'Roarty 16:03
yeah, and now I'm finding myself supporting I have this whole beautiful community, my membership community, and there's a little group of mamas of 15 year old daughters who are just like, ladies, like, just know this is temporary. And like, what you were just saying, trusting that experience and mature, maturity is gonna land, yeah, and it's so hard to like, like, really, but, but maybe, what if it doesn't for my kid? It's like, No, this is for every kid. Like, they will mature. It will shift and change. And yes, like, if we can maintain the relationship, then regardless of what kind of mischief and havoc shows up in those hard years, like they're going to get to the other side with more skills than we could have even appreciated in the moment, right? The important skills, right? Yeah, maybe not, like a 4.0 maybe with some like war wounds along the way, hopefully, none that are too deep or painful, of course. But you know all of that is, is this was something that I said to a parent last night, like, who was really worried about his child having any regrets. And I said, Hey, listen, first of all, we all have regrets. Second of all, our regrets are what inform and inspire us in the next stage of life. So you could magically eliminate regrets, you're not really doing a service to your kids. And I don't know who's really buying it,

Sarah MacLaughlin 17:37
but yeah, it's true. But all of those, it's it's pain, it's so two things come to mind. One is that part of this is a boundaries issue, that we have to step back a little bit and let our kids fail, let our kids have regrets, let them have make mistakes. A parenting class I used to teach years ago, it was the thing we said at the end of every class, mistakes are the primary learning tool for humans. Like,

Casey O'Roarty 18:03
there's no like, really, people say it again.

Sarah MacLaughlin 18:07
Stakes are the primary tool for learning tool for humans, no matter how much we want to get in there and and smooth the way and fix it or make sure they're equipped with all the skills and know about all the pitfalls. Like, it just doesn't It doesn't work that way. We can't, but that's and seeing that, that is so that we can avoid our own pain. That's where the boundary piece comes in. Is that those feelings are ours, right? Because these are our children, and we become so attached, slash, maybe a little bit enmeshed, not, not everybody, but, oh yeah, that there's that the not having that boundary in the right place is the difference between being involved and supportive and being like enmeshed and emotionally bound up and codependent in your child's behavior and choices, because they are going to grow up and be adults who have their own lives, and that's what's supposed to happen, and that's an inherent grief in parenting, right like and having the emotional competence to be able to recognize that and do like I, you know, kind of do a little pre work. One of the things that I did for this book is I, I wanted it to be really just for anybody, like, if you have a two year old or, you know, 19 year, 18 year old, whatever, it doesn't matter. It's just, know, the stories are mostly about when my son was young, because, you know, they get to be a certain age, they don't want you telling stories about them anymore, which is totally fine. Shout out

Casey O'Roarty 19:24
to Rowan, who lets me talk about her all the time.

Sarah MacLaughlin 19:27
Yeah, I can't even post his picture anymore. Maybe he'll change his mind, but yes, total. Thank you, Rowan. I absolutely appreciate that as well. So I reached out to a bunch of friends who were who didn't, whose kids had left home, and I got some really lovely responses and and my one friend, she wrote something particularly beautiful, and she let me put in the book. And I'm so grateful, because it really did. I think it's, it's helpful to know what's coming right, like, even though your friend when she was giving you Reiki, and tell. You like, it'll all be better, you know, because this is a developmental phase, right? That's part of the thing is that if we don't know, it's just a phase, we're freaking out, yeah? And maybe we were had a different kind of temperament as a teenager, and so it feels really foreign, you know, I can some of my child's behavior, I can look at and be like, oh, yeah, I remember this. And some of it, I'm like, Huh? Because they're growing up in a totally different time than we than we did, right? So yeah, it's not, it's not ever going to be the same, but any times that you can kind of relate, and then I feel like there's, there's no way to, like, pre process the grief, but that there's little griefs that come as they grow and get bigger and and move slowly away from us. And I feel like that's part of my job as this parent, is to stay current with my own emotional process. And that's that piece of having a good relationship with myself, yeah? And having having that self awareness so that I can be I want to, I want our relationship to be good, and I can only have that if I'm paying attention to my side of the street.

Casey O'Roarty 21:01
Yeah, and I think, like when you were talking about enmeshment, I mean, when we were in our toughest season with rowie, I knew that I was enmeshed. I knew that it was I like, that my attachment was not a healthy like it was so hard for me to create space between the experience that she was having and my experience of it. And so I just want to say to anybody that's listening, who's who you know is having a child, especially our kids that are really kind of the outliers, who are really, you know, struggling with mental health and just having such a hard time. I just want to say that I see you and I love you, and, you know, a mantra that I really appreciate is that a friend of mine said to me one day in passing that has just like landed and continues to land is being fiercely committed and lovingly detached, yep, and it's really, like, it's a great mantra and trying to, like, what does that feel like in the body, you know, like trying to really, and this is, like, literally, my question to myself, like, what, What does that feel like? Because there's no doubt that I'm fiercely committed to my kids well being, and that lovingly detached piece is the gold, right? Yeah, the gold. It's where we get out of the way, and we allow for their experiences of life to create, you know, like we were talking before to create the tension that they need, right to move forward and thrive. And, man, it's, it's really hard, and that's personal growth, right? That's where we get to check in on, okay, what's going on? Like, where's my I need to, yes, I want to find you a therapist. And by the way, I'm calling my own.

Sarah MacLaughlin 22:59
Yes, exactly. That's a perfect example. You know, you use the word scaffolding a minute ago, and I love that, because it's like we're not building these people, right? These people arrived, and they are their own people, and we are scaffolding their growth and development because we have grown up brains and we do know some things that they don't know, and we are trying to make sure that they can kind of fall down in a semi safe environment while their brains are growing until they have a fully formed prefrontal cortex. They're they're gonna 20s everywhere. 20s. So sorry. That's why they won't let you rent a car until you're 25 because they know, but they

Casey O'Roarty 23:36
can go to war and smoke and drink anyway. Go on.

Sarah MacLaughlin 23:38
That's a whole separate issue. Yeah, that there's, there's, you know, we're providing that loving guidance. I love that I wrote that down fiercely committed and lovingly detached me too. But you know, the scaffolding doesn't move right, like, if you think about scaffolding on a building, or if you think about, you know, guard rails on a bridge, like they don't move in towards you to hold you Right, right? We can't ever hold our kids. But if you're thinking about providing structure that is supportive and not, you know, isn't taking over, right, like it, or smothering or whatever, we have to put our boundaries where they need to be, and then we need to leave them there, right? And not move them in because of our anxiety.

Casey O'Roarty 24:19
If that yes, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense, because that's when we do it, because we're, of course, afraid and like, listen, parents, there's plenty to be afraid of okay. I know there are plenty of stories out there of teen years gone awry, and I mean, for the most part, they're going to be okay. Most of them are going to be okay, right, like, right? And that same wise friend who gave me energy work was also we met. She came, went through one of my classes years ago when her parent when her kids were much younger. And one of the things that she said during our class, she's like, You. Know, I'm just getting this visual, like, I'm the container. Like, really, what you just said, Sarah, yeah, I'm the container. That is my job is to be the container, and their job is to bounce all around the container, hitting the walls, knowing where the boundaries are. And that visual, you know, shout out to Jessica, because she's the one she's offered so much wisdom to me, even as she came to my class, I was like, let me lay down on your table. But yeah, I just think that's so powerful. I was actually talking to my daughter about this whole conversation of, you know, regrets and wanting our kids to have all the doors open. And I'm talking to her about it compassionately, because I get it. I understand where this comes from. And she looks at me like kind of with a little bit of disgust, and says, That sounds like parents want to live through their teens, mom, uh huh, yeah. And it got me thinking, and really, I mean the practice of separating our regrets, sure, right? You know, because I definitely, like, I really wish I wouldn't have partied through college, because I had some really great classes that I wish I could remember, right, and I can't, because I was not there, either physically or mentally. So, you know, I definitely there's and plus many other things that I will mention here on the show. So many regrets. We're not going to do

Sarah MacLaughlin 26:31
a laundry list of that. Are we going to keep it that real?

Casey O'Roarty 26:36
But I can, I can feel when and Rowan, my sweet 18 year old is really good at noticing when that kind of starts to come in for me, because she'll say, I'm not you mom, right and, and that's her way of reminding me, like, Oh, I am letting my own experiences kind of we're trying to Help. I know

Sarah MacLaughlin 27:01
we try to, we're like, oh gosh, I have these regrets. So, you know, clearly, I will give you my wisdom. We can't. Wisdom doesn't work that way. You can't hand it off. It's not, it's learned through transferable. Yes, it's not transferable. So give it up, people. It's just not, it's not going to happen. And and then the problem is the tension that that creates, and this, you know, we could apply this to toddlers too, right? Like we were anxious about their behavior. We think it's a reflection of us. And then, you know, this is a little different, right, like that, but the root really was, the group is the same, that we're afraid that it's going to be, it's going to make us look bad, if our toddler screaming, or if our child is struggling in school, or whatever it is when they're older, it's still like we're too personally invested. We're thinking that they, if they're not us, that they're a reflection of us, and that it's we're responsible somehow for their entire being, which is just not really how it works. No, because what

Casey O'Roarty 27:53
we're responsible for is how we respond. Like, I mean, when I think about being in the grocery store and there's a toddler going off the rails, and I watch a parent who can stay connected to themselves and maintain like that is when I'm like, Oh, you are onto something there, Mama. You know, like that is yes, and you know, I like to, you know, now that we're kind of on the other side of Rowan's experience, I can feel some pride around like, Wow. I mean, as hard as it was, and as many moments as I had where I was like, No, this cannot happen this way. This is a mistake, and I got in my stuff. You know, for the most part, I'm really grateful that I well. I'm grateful that she was so sure of what she needed. Like, there really wasn't, I mean, like, I mean, I didn't really have any other option other than, like, okay, letting you take the lead here. And I'm so glad that I did. I'm so, I mean, like, again, as if there was a choice there, even inside of that, when I finally surrendered, and was like, Okay, this is what we're doing. And so then how can I show up to this narrative in a way that's going to be supportive of her, even though there were, you know, three or four big red flags that were terrifying along the way, you know that I didn't have any control over other than, like, becoming a psychopath and and then what would have happened to her? I

Sarah MacLaughlin 29:25
mean, it's just, it's crazy, yeah, yeah. But what you do have control over, which is something that I also talk about in my book, is the narrative. You have the power to us, to to notice that they you even have a narrative like, that's my two micro self regulation. The first thing is to, like, pause, if you've noticed, be able to notice that you're triggered, right? Like, which it gets hard in itself. Like, yeah, just that one step is so freaking hard sometimes. And then you want

Casey O'Roarty 29:50
to bite someone's head off people, you're triggered. Okay, yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 29:53
you're triggered when you're when you're you think that everybody else should be behaving differently. They're triggered, right? Yes, but then the second piece is to notice what story then comes into your head about what just happened, because that is the narrative that is driving you and running the show for you. And most of us are not even aware that it exists, yeah. So, so your story is this can't be happening for whatever, myriad reasons, right? And that then you have the once you notice the story, it's just a story. It's not like you know, don't believe everything you think. It doesn't mean it's real. It means that you now know something about yourself and how you're interpreting the situation, and that you can stop that and think about what alternate what other things could be going on. This is where the curiosity comes in. What other narratives could I entertain in this scenario, because there's always at least one more, but there's probably tons more that you could consider that might feel even if the other person's behavior does not change, whether they're three or 13 or 18, you still get to feel potentially feel differently because you tell yourself a different story about their behavior. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 30:59
I love the narrative conversation, especially considering I think of myself as this, like, really laid back, easygoing, open minded person. And then when Rowan was like, I'm done with school. I'm dropping out week three of junior year of high school, I realized, Oh well, I am attached to a certain narrative here that I didn't I was just like in the moment. It was the water I was swimming in. I didn't realize that that existed until she came and and ripped it out of my hands, and I realized, Oh, wow. And that was part of the work for me, was recognizing there are multiple narratives that can exist at once. And I'm not the whole like, this is her, you said this earlier, like, this is her, this is her narrative, this is her journey, this is her life. And yes, I was definitely at one point thinking to myself, God, I really hope at 30 she's not like, you know what, Mom, you really should have been a little bit firmer there when I wanted to drop out of high school, like, I don't want to have that conversation. And I've actually brought it up to her, and she just rolls her eyes. And she's like, Mom, I am never going to say that. I'm like, Okay, well, we'll see. Quite let it go. But again, that is fear for my of my discomfort, right, right? Exactly, my discomfort. So oh my gosh,

Sarah MacLaughlin 32:28
right. And the capacity to to be, if that is the case, you won't, you won't be able to do anything about it except feel how you feel about it. And, and we're like, really, you shouldn't

Casey O'Roarty 32:38
have been so adamant. And then maybe you're funny,

Sarah MacLaughlin 32:42
but there's a self trust piece there too, of like that, I will be okay. Like, yeah, we can't protect ourselves from and part of it is just a desire for that right to protect ourselves from what we might be able to kind of see coming, but we really can't. We can't we don't know what's coming, and the last 15 months hasn't proven that to all of us. I don't know what the heck will like for, you know, and that, you know, we we probably should just take a deep breath and be here

Casey O'Roarty 33:11
now, yeah, and, you know, I do feel really good about how things have played out. You know, it's hindsight. You know, it's really nice to be outside of it. But so what are some tools that you offer parents around I mean, there's the talking about, like, self awareness and recognizing that you're triggered, and, and, and, you know, I talk about this too with parents, like, sometimes I recognize I'm triggered, and the conversation sounds like, wow, I'm really upset about this right now, and then I the next thing is like, yeah, and guess what? They need to know. I don't care. I'm pissed. I want to make them feel bad too. That happens. Yeah, right. So what are some tools that you have to help with that? And I've been talking about it as the willingness, right, versus the willfulness, the willingness to say, Oh, I am. My lid is starting to flip. Thank you dancing for the language. Yeah, absolutely. My lid is starting to flip. Or my lid is flipped, is flipped, or just flipped, yeah, and I'm and I'm willing to take care of myself, especially because when you're confronted by that teenager, man and toddler, but I there's something special about a teenager, because you're eye to eye, or in my case, 15 year old, you know, I'm

Sarah MacLaughlin 34:26
looking taller than you now. Yeah, I'm not quite there yet, but it's gonna be weird. We're talking about how weird it's gonna be. So this is the thing where it gets really personal, and you need those great listening skills and communication skills because, because it depends, like, what do you need to do? It depends, it depends on what kind of person you are and how you need to cool off. It depends on what kind of person your child is, and if they're going to be able to let it go and give you and give you space, because we are not in charge of their bodies, and we, I mean, you can go in. A closed room and say, I need some space, and then that would work. But like, what's gonna having? Being able to communicate well enough to come up with agreements when you're not triggered is really an important structure, I think, to have, like, absolutely when you, you know, when you flip your lid and you start, I do this thing where I start talking and I don't stop.

Casey O'Roarty 35:21
Again. Misters from another

Sarah MacLaughlin 35:23
yelling. But I am not stopping talking right now. You

Casey O'Roarty 35:27
might be yelling with your face. That's what my kids are. Like you're yelling with your face.

Sarah MacLaughlin 35:32
And another thing, yes, and I just don't stop talking because the emotion is driving my mouth, yeah, and all the words come out and and I'm and I also, I've interrupted him to say what I'm saying now, a mile a minute, right? Because I, because I maybe assume something about his beat. And so, so it's a dance, right? Is it? Relationships are a dance of boundaries, of communication, of listening, and they're going to be unique, like you're I only have the one child, but I live with another human and my relationship and conversations about around getting triggered with my husband are different. And I'm sure, and I know 100% that anybody who has more than one child, you're there's not some like formula that's going to work for you know, both of your kids, like

Casey O'Roarty 36:16
in the trigger is different. Like, my kids trigger me differently. Yeah, I'm

Sarah MacLaughlin 36:20
sure, I'm sure they do. So, so this is where knowing yourself and knowing what you need, and then the other piece is there's sometimes no avoiding it, so that it's really just that rupture and repair process and that parents, parents, I know, and because I have to get so concerned about the rupture, because it feels like you're breaking something, right? You are. You're breaking your connection with your child, when you when when you yell, when you punish, when you do those things that break connection. It is that's what's happening. But that doesn't mean that it's broken permanently, right? It means that that there's a repair that needs to be made. There's a reconnection that needs to be made, and that can be fast, depending on how people's emotions flow through them or process, or if it was a misunderstanding, right? Like, maybe it's a misunderstanding, and that gets sorted out in the moment, and then it's like, you know, quick apologies, and you move on. But maybe it's not, maybe it's a bigger, deeper issue, and there's going to need to be space and conversations, and we need to talk about this later, when I'm not feeling so heated, or whatever the whatever the strategies are like, the more you have, the better, because you'll try them out and you'll figure out which ones work in which situations. But there's no formula or magic bullet to any this interpersonal work. I know. I'm sorry, you know.

Casey O'Roarty 37:38
And I love that sometimes when you have the rupture repair, sometimes the repair actually takes you to a new level of relationship with your kid. So absolutely, you know, if we would lived a life with no rupture, I think that it, you know, there would be certain places that our relationship wouldn't be able to go to because of that lack of I mean, it's an invitation for vulnerability. It's absolutely for humility, for knowing each other at a deeper level. I love repair, you know? I think it's so powerful,

Sarah MacLaughlin 38:17
right? You were saying. It was making me think. You know, when kids are younger, we have this thing where, like, we just don't want them melting down all the time, right? Like, there's just all this crying and tantrums because their regulatory system in their brain isn't wired, and if you don't know that, like, that causes, that's the biggest problems that right? Then we see character, right? Right? Then we see character and the appearance get really controlling and freaked out about it, because they're terrified, right? But then that fear is driving their behavior to squash it, and then the kid is just like, I'm just having a big feeling, because that's all I know how to do. But you know anyway, it's the same, it's the same kind of problem when you have conflict with teens, right? Like, we just don't want it to be happening, but instead to just know, like, that's what happens between teens and parents. Like, that's the developmental thing. They're supposed to push up against us and pull away from us and be like, I'm going to be my own person. Yes, you are, and we have our own relationship. We're still living in the same home. You're still don't have a fully formed brain, so the conflict is just like the telltale, like sign of development for teens. Yeah, it's not and reframing it so it's not a bad thing. And like you were saying, it does really build intimacy, right? Like I did an exercise to teach crisis de escalation at my couple social work jobs ago, and we did this exercise where we had people write down the 10 people that they feel closest to on a sticky note, and then to circle all of the ones that they've had conflict with. And my on my list of 10, I had nine out of 10. I circled where I have had conflict, like significant conflict, because it's what helps you. It's real. It's what's real. Yeah, right. It's

Casey O'Roarty 39:48
how you know that there are lifers. Yes, yeah. So

Sarah MacLaughlin 39:53
that piece about development, and then just about how it really is, if you see it as a relationship builder. Just like, you know, tears and tantrums for my younger child, that means they trust you. That means that they they know you've got them, and they can show you their most troubled self. And it's a similar kind of vibe when kids are older that it's hard to take it as a compliment both of those behaviors, right? But it really, it really is on some level. Yeah, I

Casey O'Roarty 40:19
think there's the added piece of, I hate to even say this, because we could launch into another 20 minute conversation, but I'm just gonna say there's this added piece of like time is running out. And I think yes, and I know for myself, and I've heard it from clients that I've worked with, there's this fear that if relationship is really hard right now, that that basically is a preview of the rest of their life. And man, you know, like I am living proof. My mom and I went through it from like 15 to 25 very little relationship, you

Sarah MacLaughlin 40:57
too. Yeah, not, not, not so much. It was more. It was more it was a little shorter period, but there was a it was big and messy. Very big and messy, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 41:04
really big and messy and painful. And she's my number one. You know, we are closer now, and I have to give her credit too, because I think she's done a lot of her own personal growth work and willingness to be open, yeah, and I'm grateful for that, but man, like I just, it hurts my heart. You know, just to talk to moms who are so afraid that right now is an indication of forever, because it's not right. It doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be right. Well,

Sarah MacLaughlin 41:37
and making sure that you are taking care of yourself right, like, I know That's so cliche, but if you are taking care of yourself and

Casey O'Roarty 41:46
it will, then you're not desperate. Yeah, it was just, that's

Sarah MacLaughlin 41:49
what I was trying to get at. Is there's something about the desperation of like, that fear is so far reaching that it muddies the present and it makes it harder to connect, which is the exact opposite of what you want. It's like, a like, kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 42:03
Oh, man, I just had a couple people come to mind. I can't wait to share this show with Oh, Sarah. We cannot wait another 200 episodes. No, what

Sarah MacLaughlin 42:12
were we thinking? I

Casey O'Roarty 42:13
don't know. I don't know how that happened. Um, so great. So this show's gonna go live. We'll, you'll still be in your pre sale of your book. So, yeah, tell us. Where can people find your book? Where can they follow you? All the things. Yes. Okay,

Sarah MacLaughlin 42:30
great. So I'm on all the social media channels, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, just your name, just,

Casey O'Roarty 42:37
well, you and the singer. Yeah, it's

Sarah MacLaughlin 42:40
you can. I'll have you can, I'll have you can put it in the show notes. If yes, I'm easy to find on, on Facebook. I think I'm Sarah mclaugh on Twitter, but every place else, I'm Sarah McLaughlin. Okay? Because, you know, it's already taken and the book is launching, has launched. Because by the time this airs, it will have launched. And you can buy it on indie bound and it, I believe that sometimes you can request it through your local bookstores, because my publisher is an independent publisher, so they should be really in tight with with the independent bookstores, and then you can also get it online at Amazon and Barnes and mobile.

Casey O'Roarty 43:13
Yay, yay. Thank you. And my final question, I don't know if I asked you this, if I was asking this question the last time we recorded. But what does joyful courage mean to you? Yeah,

Sarah MacLaughlin 43:25
you did. And, oh, good, you

Casey O'Roarty 43:27
know what my answer was, great. That doesn't matter. Might be different now that you have a 13 year old. Yes, indeed. Well,

Sarah MacLaughlin 43:33
and well, we can all have to go back and listen, because what comes to mind is really tied to what we have been talking about is just sort of the bitter and the sweet, of the fact that these relationships with our kids are so important to us and that we have to be courageous to be able to let them go. Because I I'm going to forget whose quote it is, but they need roots and wings. And it's you can't keep them in a cage. Gotta let them fly.

Casey O'Roarty 43:58
We can't. I adore you same so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.

All right. Thank you again for listening, and don't forget, you can get the seven tips for connecting with your teens, as well as podcast updates and offers from joyful courage, plus some humorous stories straight from the trenches of my life by joining my email list. Joyful courage.com/email, that's joyful courage.com/email. Do it now so you can be even more connected to all things joyful courage, and be sure to follow me in all the places I love connecting with you on social media, I try to post things that add value to your life. So find me on Instagram. Find me on Facebook. Don't forget to check out the membership. Right the membership for moms of teens and tweens at joyful courage.com/ljc enrollment closes the end of July. If there were any links that I threw at you. Know About parent education or the membership or the email, just know all of them are in the show notes. So check the show notes if you didn't catch the links and friends, take a deep breath. Ride it into your body. Release. Find ease. Find your balcony seat lifting up and out for perspective and trust that everyone and everything is going to be okay. Big Love to all of you. I'll see you next week.

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