Eps 278: Addiction Inoculation with Jessica Lahey

Subscribe to the Podcast

Transcription

Casey O'Roarty 0:00
Music. Hello, friends. Welcome to the joyful courage podcast, a place where we tease apart what it means to be a conscious parent and a conscious human on the wild ride of raising our kids. I'm your host. Casey o'rourdy, positive discipline trainer, parent, coach and mom walking the path right next to you as I am perfectly parent my own two teenagers. Joyful courage is all about grit growth on the parenting journey, relationships that provide a sense of connection and meaning and influential tools that support everyone in being their best selves. As you listen in on today's show, pay attention to how grit shows up in the conversation. Thank you so much for listening. I am deeply honored to lead you, so grateful that what I put out matters to you and really, really excited to keep it coming. If you love this show, please take a screenshot and share it on your social media. Let your friends know that you are listening and finding value in this podcast onto the show.

Hello, my friends. Welcome back to the podcast. Today, I'm so excited to welcome Jessica Leahy back to the show. Jessica is a journalist, teacher, podcaster, parent, recovering alcoholic, and author of The New York Times bestseller, The Gift of Failure in her new book, The addiction inoculation, raising healthy kids and a culture of dependence, she shares her own experience of addiction and long term recovery, seamlessly weaving together rich storytelling with compassionate evidence based analysis, the result is a supportive, life saving resource for parents and educators to understand the roots of substance abuse, identify who is most at risk and employ the most effective prevention measures born into a Family of alcoholics and drug abusers. Jessica Leahy spent her early adulthood trying frantically to thwart that multi generational genetic legacy. She ultimately failed, descending into alcoholism in her 30s, she didn't find her way out until her early 40s. After years of recovery, Leahy was determined to protect her two adolescent sons from their most dangerous inheritance, an outgrowth of her sobriety in years as a teacher in a substance abuse program for teens, the addiction inoculation is Jessica's gift to her children and her students. Once I faced my own addictions, she writes, I was desperate to learn more about my children's risk and understand the steps I could take to inoculate them against substance use disorder, written from a place of compassion, rather than shame or judgment, the addiction inoculation is a thoughtful and indispensable guide to understanding the roots of substance abuse. It helps identify who is most at risk for addiction, and offers parents, educators and other caregivers, practical steps for prevention. Jessica, I'm so glad you're here. Welcome back. Thank you so

Jessica Lahey 3:08
much. That was really lovely. Thank

Casey O'Roarty 3:10
you. Well, I mean, I was gonna kind of play with your bio, but I was, I read it, and I thought this is just so perfect. It perfectly captures how I felt who you are as I read your book. So I'm just so grateful that you were willing to be so open and vulnerable about your own journey, and just for your passion in supporting parents to ultimately support kids in interrupting this, you know, this culture of dependency, as you call it. That for

Jessica Lahey 3:45
us, it was a family cycle that, you know, I sort of looked at my parent and then my parents parent, and I'm like, Okay, so where does this end? How do I make this stop with me? Yeah, you know, that was, I was a little bit desperate.

Casey O'Roarty 4:00
A lot of us are, you know, I think a lot of us are. I mean, the details might be slightly different, but so many of us in our generation, I feel like, are in the in the work of interrupting something, right? Interrupting, yeah. I

Jessica Lahey 4:15
mean, there's so many things, you know, every once in a while I'll hear something come out of my mouth and I'm like, Oh my God, that's my mother, or, Oh, my God, that's my father. And, you know, I realized, oh, you know, I really wanted to try to avoid that those little moments are important. But you know, when I realized that I was repeating this whole substance abuse thing, I not it snuck up on me too, like real I worked really hard to have it not happen and but the problem was, is that I just, I think a lot of it came down to the fact that I sort of wasn't watching carefully enough. And I, you know, the secrecy stuff, that's just the worst. I mean, I think secrecy and shame and the the vicious cycle of, you know, shame. Starting making you feel like you have to be more secret about it, and the secrecy making you feel more shame. And, you know, that's the stuff that I wanted to avoid the most, because I, you know, I was not allowed to talk about my parents substance abuse as a kid, and I, in fact, you know, deterred from it. My sister and I would sort of take turns like, okay, who's going to bring it up now? And then we'd get in trouble for bringing it up and told that we what we were seeing was not actually what we were seeing. And there was gaslighting and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, it's not, I'm not angry about that now. I mean, there's a lot of there's a history that explains that. I mean, going back a couple of generations, but I knew that the way this had to go was no no shame, no guilt, no secrecy. I just, we couldn't, I couldn't afford for that to be a part of our family. So, you know, being public about this is really scary, you know, especially since at the time when I got sober, I was still teaching, and oh my gosh, the idea of running into a parent of my students like that was the worst. In fact, I joke in the book that when I first went into recovery, I went to a meeting that was far away from my house, so that I would could have possibly avoid running into anyone I knew it, but I lived in a really rural area. That wasn't going to happen. I mean, I was always going to run into someone I knew. But of course, it eluded me that if someone else I knew was there. They were probably there for the same reasons I was there. And so I remember about a year, maybe two years, in to my recovery, I went to a meeting, and I ran into the parent of one of my students, and she looked at me, and I looked at her, and she actually said it first. She said, You are my worst nightmare. And I said, No, no, you are my worst nightmare. And like that, we laughed, and it was over, and we were both there for the same reason. We were both scared of running into each other for the same reason. And I can't believe I let that fear sort of rule my life for so long. And you know, the more I talk about it, the more it seems that other people feel emboldened to talk about it. And that's all I could ever want.

Casey O'Roarty 7:01
Something that I hear from friends and people in recovery is like, the process of recovery also humanizes everyone. Yeah,

Jessica Lahey 7:11
yeah. The coolest thing about the meeting that I went to, I mean, keep in mind, I grew up in, like, small, rural Massachusetts town, wealthy little town where, you know, everything was just so and everyone had the little perfect facade going on. And then I went to this meeting that got us. Boy, it's a interesting slice of life. You know, there are a lot of people there who are in the meetings because they have to get their their card signed for attendance, for for court. There's a lot of guys that on the street, I would, you know, cross the street to avoid. And so, like, this big burly, like Harley Davidson leather guy, will get up and tell his story, and he'll be talking about humility, and he'll be talking about shame, and he'll be talking about, you know, the things them. And then they'll, he'll, like, choke up, and I'm like, How have I not? You know, this slice of life that I've experienced through recovery is so especially when it comes to looking at people who have been told their whole lives not to express any emotions. You know, as a teacher, I am always interested in, especially with boys, how we can get boys to sort of name and tame their emotions. And then I see these grown men up there, you know, humbled by their own experience, and talking about humility and crying and then, and I'm like, Oh, this is one of the best places I've ever been in my entire life. It's so great. I love going to meetings. And when I'm traveling for work, I make it a point to go to meetings all over the country. And it's just, it's a hoot. It is so much fun for me, and it's fun to watch people. It's just fun from every angle for me, and I miss it so much. The you know, covid has really, it's turned made a lot of meetings virtual, which means you don't have to leave their house. But it's not at all the same thing. So yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 8:56
I imagine not. Yeah. And listeners, if you're thinking to yourself, I know this voice. This lady sounds familiar. It's because Jessica has been on the show before she was I have early, early, early episode 21 she came and talked about her book The Gift of Failure, which is another favorite of mine, and how it what it means to be an autonomy, supportive parent. She was a part of the Brave New World Summit this last winter, spoke about supporting our kids through this weird time of virtual school or one foot in hybrid. Back to this amazing book, though. So what tell me about what's the response been from parents? Have you been hearing from readers, and what are they saying?

Jessica Lahey 9:41
So the emails, the emails have been just overwhelming. Lots and lots of people wanting to talk about their kids, and it's been interesting for me, because my expertise around this stuff is really just prevention. It's not intervention and treatment, and that's you know stuff I'm definitely learning more about, and have been learning more about, but I definitely. Do not put myself out there as an expert. So it's been a lot of helping people find resources for themselves, a lot of listening as people are talking about their own issues. A lot of you know, the realization that before we can sort of deal with our kids stuff, we have to, we might have to deal with our own stuff first. And that's really, really hard, but I've been immersed in that for a while. There's a part of a couple of, you know, closed or secret Facebook groups, especially for women who are dealing with substance abuse. And it there's just, again, I the shame thing. It's what keeps so many people underground and sick. And I just, I'm blabbering about this stuff as much as possible, so that the more I talk, the more other people be like, Oh, we're allowed to talk about this stuff. Like, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to pretend like, you know, just because I'm a mother, I'm a parent, I'm a teacher, whatever it is that I somehow have to be held to this incredibly, impossibly high standard. Because, you know, no one's gonna be able to get help until they can start talking about the fact that they have a problem, and there's so many people are too scared to tell anybody, so they resort to these anonymous, you know, Facebook groups, and it's really, it can be really hard for them, but the response has been amazing.

Casey O'Roarty 11:20
Yeah, as I I'm not a big drinker. I was definitely like, as I read your book, I saw myself, though, in so many of the statistics from when I was younger, I was always a binge drinker. Like that was the point. If you drank, you drank to get drunk. I mean that, well, that's

Jessica Lahey 11:36
what kids do. That's the difference between kids drinking and adult drinking. Binge drinking is how kids drink,

Casey O'Roarty 11:40
yeah, and even, but even as an adult, you know, yeah, and so, you know, I haven't, I mean, grateful that it never really got its claws too terribly and to me, and as I moved through my 40s, I've had a couple of long periods where I've Just completely abstained. And what happens, though, is you start to see how the assumption this, like cultural assumption that everybody dreams, yeah, and that it's a part of, you know, especially the mom drinking right situation, is like, wow. The the assumption is so present, and then speaking up and saying, I'm not drinking, or I'm not a big drinker, like the energy, like the energy that shows up around that is really fascinating to be an observer.

Jessica Lahey 12:31
I think people would be surprised, though, because that assumption that everyone drinks is a self perpetuating myth that we perpetuate because of this thing called pluralistic ignorance. We and this is all in the book that we assume that people are more invested in since we're talking about alcohol, we'll talk about alcohol than we are. So there was this great experiment. So Princeton University had these crazy, insane high drinking levels, especially during their alumni weekend, rivaled only, by the way, by the Indy 500 that's the only sort of gathering where there was more alcohol consumed per person. So anyway, so they realized that they had a real problem, and so Princeton got rid of kegs. And so they had this opportunity to, I mean, like, like, getting rid of kegs is going to solve the problem, but it was their symbolic act. So they had this opportunity to get some to survey students about their feelings about this and how they felt about it. And it turns out that a lot of students were like, well, I mean, I don't care, but everybody else really cares that we're getting rid of I mean, people are incensed. I mean, I don't care, but everyone else does. So there's this, especially in college, this assumption. In fact, I almost left the college chapter out of the book, assuming that. I assumed that, well, everyone drinks in college, and so, I mean, that's a foregone conclusion, so why would I even write about it? And it's just not true. It's less than 50% and what's so crazy is so less than 50% than of kids in college drink. It's highly concentrated among the high frequency binge drinkers. It's highly concentrated in the Greek system and in the sports both fan and player world. And it's almost so there's a very thin slice of the student population that drinks the majority of the alcohol. And actually, if you even thin slice that out more. It's not just like the frats and the sports kids and the, you know, various other slices. It's very few people within those cultures that drink the most. So when you look at those numbers, and it depends on what state you're in and what college you're in, but you can imagine what this pluralistic ignorance does if you assume that no one will come to event, an event where there isn't alcohol, no one will have events without alcohol. But if 50% of the school population is not drinking, or drinks very rarely, then you're saying to 50% of the school population, we're not putting events on for you, because we don't. So when there's this disconnect between reality statistical reality data. Have and our assumptions, that's where the problems come. So throughout the book, I offer lots of data so that parents can have data. Like, you know, if your kid is in eighth grade and they say, you know, well, everybody's drinking, and you say, well, actually, in eighth grade, only 24% of kids admit that they've had a drink by the end of eighth grade. That's not everybody. So that kind of information about, you know, just our assumptions and our miss, our misperceptions drive the fact that we have these misperceptions and, you know, these overblown myths about who's drinking and why and how much it's really it was eye opening for me. So much of this book was eye opening for me.

Casey O'Roarty 15:40
Yeah, that's those are important. I mean, it's actually makes me feel, well, it gives me a lot of feels. Jess

Jessica Lahey 15:51
this book, Emma and I have to say, for those people who haven't read the book, this book turned into much more of a memoir and a and a and a biography, because there are two. So Brian and Georgia are featured. So

Casey O'Roarty 16:02
much easier to read because of that, though. Like, that is the gift of the book.

Jessica Lahey 16:07
That's my favorite. That's my sweet spot. So, like, there were a couple books that came out last year. One was by Lulu Miller. It was called Fish don't exist. And I just really loved it because it was right at the intersection of, I'm researching this thing, and how fascinating is this thing, and oh my goodness, look how it applies to these things that I was searching for, and I didn't realize these things were connected at all. And so when you know, I love to tell stories through narrative, it's just one of my favorite things. And so I have to do a huge shout out to Brian and Georgia, their real names, by the way, who are in the book in a big way. And those two young adults just decided that in order to make this hell they've been through worthwhile helping other people, that was the way to do it. So Georgia and Brian were so brave with their stories and shared so much. And then, of course, my story's in there, so I didn't expect it to be this narrative based, but you know, that's just what I like to write. So anyway, lots of data, but also a ton of stories. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 17:04
I loved Brian and George's stories, by the way, yeah, and there's so much information. And you know that my people are parents of tweens and teens, and substance use and abuse is a huge topic for them. They want to know what to do to protect their kids and make sure they stay away from substances, and you talk about the power of an authoritative style of parenting where we have high expectations while also are responsive to the needs of our kids and listeners, as you know, That's very positive discipline, both and of those two things, can you just briefly break down for anybody that's new here, authoritative parenting a little bit further.

Jessica Lahey 17:51
Yeah, so very much. Also what I talk about and give to failure. Very much. But Juliet Scott Hames talked about and how to raise an adult. You know that idea that when you have high expectations for your kids and also follow through with consequences and are there to support them while they are figuring these things out, this is not like a, you know, set some rules and walk away kind of situation. This is a very sort of, I'm here to support you while you're learning. What I care about is the learning you are, you know, and loving the kid for they who they are and not who you wish they are. And, you know, really understanding your kid and supporting your kid as they move through the challenges in their life. That's, you know, I think a lot of people read Gift of Failure, or, you know, skim it and think, Oh, well, this is permissive parenting. And what's fascinating to me is I was much more strict. And I think my kids would say that too after writing Gift of Failure than before, even though before I was like, super strict, and I want to, and I wanted my kids to always show respect and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it wasn't until I sort of stepped back and gave them more responsibility and were there to support them through figuring that out and then in enforcing natural, logical consequences if they messed up. I think that was much more strict parents after that, so authoritative parents, if they're not authoritarian parents where there's like, low feeling, there's also a lot of, you know, emotion and love and shows of affection and shows of support, that's really, really important part of this. I think the parenting strategy that you know really does the whole positive parenting, you know that alderian and positive and loving while strong, loving while consistent. I mean loving and consistent. I think are two big parts of that, yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 19:37
connected. That's the word that comes up. Very kind of, like, maintaining relationship while also holding, you know, a space for boundaries and a space for like, yeah, this does feel bad. I love you, yeah, yeah, I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. And, you know, it does feel it's hard to have your feet held to the fire.

Jessica Lahey 19:59
Yeah, especially when you see your kids getting frustrated or feeling stupid or feeling like they messed up. And yeah, you know that's those are the times that I just want to sort of rush in and fix things, and the moments that I really can't rush in and fix

Casey O'Roarty 20:13
things. Yeah. So you write in the book the way that you break down how we be with our kids in the context of substance use, you talk about three domains that have a significant impact on preventing use and other risky behaviors, because adolescence, as you you know, cite Dr Siegel in your book, and I've had him on here. You know, adolescence is a time of novelty seeking and brain, like all sorts of different brain things are happening, which you everyone who's listening, Jessica does an amazing job in her book and really breaking things down, but you talk about knowledge, expectations and practice as these three beautiful spaces for parents to really think about and develop with them, within themselves and then in their relationship with their kids. So I'm excited to spend some time teasing these apart with you today. So let's start with knowledge. What is it important for parents to know?

Jessica Lahey 21:17
So there's a lot of myths out there about how we raise kids around substances. And there's the European myth, the whole, you know, like, if I teach my kid moderation, if I let them SIP at home, then they'll learn moderation, and they'll, you know, when they get older and they can, you know, then they can drink. Or when drink is drinking and drugs are around them, they'll be like, Oh, that's no big deal, because, you know, I was raised with parents who let me have steps. First of all, that doesn't work, and for two reasons. And I think throughout the entire book, we have to think about the book two ways. Number one, the reason that so there are two things happening. There's sort of the brain development stuff, which is, when we talk about substances in this book, we are not talking about the adult brain. We're not talking about adults things that have low or no risk. Let's stick with low in the adult brain can have massive risk in the adolescent brain, because the adolescent brain is uniquely, exquisitely sensitive to the environment and to substances and to things we put in our bodies and to the ways we're treated. And so it isn't until the brain is done developing in the early to mid 20s that we really think that risk for a lot of these things go way down. And that includes for a lot of reasons, not just the brain chemistry and the brain structures, but also, you know, we get out of certain ranges for certain mental health stuff. And anyway, delay. Delay is an important concept around this book, because of the brain development stuff. There's some fascinating books out right now about adult drug use. Dr Karl Hart's drug use for grown ups. Michael Pollan's how to change your mind, where he writes all about psychedelics, fascinating stuff, but that's for adult brains, not in regards to adolescent brains. So there's the brain, and then there's the risk, the earlier a child starts using drugs and alcohol, the higher the risk their lifelong risk of developing substance use disorder is. With every passing year, it drops and in there are certain periods in adolescence where it drops dramatically. 90% of people who have a substance use disorder in adulthood report that they started trying drugs and alcohol before they were 18, which is not surprising, and there's a causation correlation issue here. But so we've got the brain stuff, and we've got the risk stuff. If we can get kids to 18, ideally we can get them, you know, I say 21 but let's say 18, just for just for giggles, we get them back down to a lifelong risk of about 10% which is sort of what it is in the general population. So whereas in eighth grade, it's like above 50% so we really want to get them as close as possible to that magic 1821, whatever. So these myths are pernicious, and that, like the European myth or the, you know, the if I give them a place to drink, you know, I know they're going to do it anyway, which, again, not true. I know they're going to do it anyway, so I'll just let them do it at my house. I'll keep all the keys. They'll be safe, right? Those sorts of things that's all permissive parenting around substances. And the problem is, is that not only does the European myth not work because it raises a child's risk for substance use disorder during their lifetime, the moderate European drinker. Thing doesn't exist in the way that we conceptualize it, like that romantic vision of Italian children having their own glass wine and growing up to be moderate drinkers. It isn't really what you think it is, because Europe, and especially Eastern Europe, but Europe, according to the World Health Organization, has the highest consumption levels of consumption of alcohol in the world, and it's so much it's been a problem, so much so that even France has changed their public health guidelines around acceptable amounts of alcohol for even for adults. So what we know is that if you give your kid a consistent message of No, not until it is legal, your children are far less likely. To have substance use disorder during their lifetime, and that's regardless of whatever adverse childhood experiences and other risk factors that are in their childhood. Which means I have a 22 year old who was raised one way, and a 17 year old who's being raised under different rules, which to that 17 year old feels really unfair, but if you think about it, I'm modeling exactly what I would hope from him, right? I was doing the best I could do based on the information I had with his big brother. I learned some more stuff, which caused me to change what I'm doing in order to be a better parent. And that's all I ever want from him, is to do the best he can given the information he has, change his behavior and his habits based on information that shows that he could be doing better. So, you know, yes, it feels unfair to him, but it also he understands it as okay. She's doing the best she can based on the information she has in front of her. A more comprehensive answer to that question is, the more information we have, the better we can teach our kids about why not? Like, just don't drink, just say no. But why? What's happening in the brain? What's happening in your brain right now? Why I'm holding this consistent line that information, like, just think, just because it's one of the worst things we can do, and also scared straight, doesn't work. And just say no, doesn't work. But when you have actual information, and you're giving your kids that information along with refusal skills or inoculation theory infused refusal skills, then you end up in a situation where your kid is like, oh, okay, because of that, and is more likely to not only abide by that in the short term, but respect your reasoning in the long term.

Casey O'Roarty 26:37
Yeah. And so side story, my Yes, ma'am, at the time, 17 year old, she does all of my transcribing for my summits, and she's nice, yeah, so she'll be listening to this. Hey, Ro. She, last summer, was transcribing for I did a risky behaviors and teen Summit, and the guest who was speaking about vaping and weed made a huge impact on her. Like I had said, all the things I had shared, all the information, and it was, you know, marijuana use. And, I mean, I don't need to get into my own personal family dynamic around that, but it was, it was a thing. It's, you know, it's a thing. And so even as we've had all these conversations, it was listening to my guest talk about the impact that really jolted her awake to the damage that she was doing. And she didn't let me in on that for a few months, and then she told me, you know, like, God, that was really what changed things for me. So there's also that question of being the parent and seeing the eyes glaze over, you know, even as in my own experience of being a kid. But again, I don't remember my parents being like, here's the science case. Yeah, right. Well,

Jessica Lahey 27:58
what's interesting, though, for me, has been the number of parents who have bought the audiobook and are listening to it in the car with their kid. And in fact, one, one kid got in touch with me. Her mom showed her how to get to my website and get in touch with me, and she asked for an autographed copy for her friend, who's also a teenager, because she's really worried about her friend, and she's been listening to the book with her mom, and that, you know, it's been starting a lot of conversation in the car, and, yeah, because they travel for sports. So it's, it's been an interesting thing to listen it's just, it's because I didn't, I actually didn't write it for kid kids, and I've been keeping it in the back of my mind, this idea about writing a version that is for kids, are writing at least something to hand them. But I also love the idea that these two have been talking about it. Yeah, love

Casey O'Roarty 28:46
it. And it's in when you talk about knowledge too. It's not just the science and the substance use part, but it's also about understanding our kids. Can you talk more about that piece, too? Because I think it's really powerful. You

Jessica Lahey 28:59
know, I think the main part of this book that's been hardest to convey for me is there are a lot of risk factors that are really hard for me to bring up with parents, because they are. It's very tempting for us to hear that we have, you know, to hear something like, by the way, divorce and separation are a risk factor for substance abuse, and adoption is a risk factor for substance abuse. And, of course, we don't want to hear that because that's because that's 50% of first marriages end in some, you know, divorce and separation. And you know, I've had parents come back at me and say, you know, but I did the right thing for my kid because, you know, it was a bad relationship. And I'm saying I have no judgment about the fact that you got divorced or separated. What I'm saying is it is a risk factor for substance abuse, so that knowledge is power, right? So if I'm trying to figure out, for example, what we moved when my now 17 year old was transitioning from middle school to high school, and that is a risk factor for not just the transitions, but the move and moving away from peers that you know, whose families I trusted, and all the. Different things. And thank goodness for Dr Dan Siegel, because he I was on the phone with him talking about this stuff, and he said, Have you thought about reframing that move as an opportunity to, you know, prompt your kid to have more sort of positive risky, to make some positive risk, do some positive risk activities than expose him to novelty. And I'm like, No, I hadn't thought of that, and so he was able to reframe that whole thing for me, but knowing what my kids risk factors are and knowing you know, what transitions they occur during and what period of life they then I can target the protections more completely, instead of just be saying, Oh, I don't want to think about that. That's too scary, or I want to feel bad about the fact that I got divorced, and therefore, you know, I just want to feel bad about it, and just woe is, you know, that kind of thing. So really, the hardest part of this is helping parents understand that the risk factors are empowering. They are information and they're useful. So really, if you think about it as like a it's a risk protection sort of scale, like one of those scales of justice, the higher your risk, the heavier that side is going to be. So you're going to have to make the protection side heavier. And so understanding your kid very specifically and with Nuance is going to help you frame that, because you'll also get to know the better you know your kid, the more you understand their peer situation and and even within that there, you know, that's the Brian chapter that I was talking about, which is my older kid was friends with a kid who got thrown out of high school three times for substance use and, well, once for behavior and twice for substance use. And that was really important for me to have sort of in my head, because understanding that that friendship was not actually a risk factor, it was actually a kind of a protective factor, in a way, was really useful, because I never would have thought of it that way. I never would have thought of it, about it as something that was protective for him. Because the reality is, most people say, oh, you know, if your kids, friends, you know, use drugs and alcohol, your kids are going to use drugs and alcohol. And that's not necessarily true, and knowing your kid really well, that's what's going to help you untangle all of those parts of the risk picture

Casey O'Roarty 32:09
well, and being able to talk to them about it, yeah, in a way that isn't judgmental or critical, but really curious

Jessica Lahey 32:16
and I and as you've read in the book, I go to some rather ridiculous lengths to get my kids to talk to me shows at our dinner table. Yeah. But also, I have to say, many of those moments that I manufactured in order to create a feeling of openness and a feeling of honesty were also some of the most enlightening and fun conversations we've had. The hot wings. Thing that you're referring to, by the way, is a, it's a excerpt in The Washington Post. So if you're curious about what, what she was talking about there, it's in the Washington Post right now.

Casey O'Roarty 32:49
We'll find it and link it into the show notes. So the second domain, another domain that you talk about, is expectations. And this is really powerful. Talk about, talk about that expectation. So

Jessica Lahey 33:02
same thing, a lot of this is also Gift of Failure stuff, which is, you know, if you want to give your kids more autonomy, help them feel more competent, you give them your expectations, and then you have to follow through when they don't meet those expectations with logical consequences. But when it comes to substance abuse, you're, you know, this comes down to your expectations for them around using substances and having conversations about why, and not just giving them the because stuff, because the expectations are. You know, we talk about this a lot that just because they're teenagers doesn't mean they have that don't have any more, that that toddler temptation to just sort of poke the line. And in fact, it happened in our house just last week. My husband got a takeout cocktail that he'd never tried before, and he really liked it, and my son said, Can I have a taste? And my husband and I looked at each other, and we looked at the kid, and we were like, Nope, it's got alcohol in it. And he rolled his eyes. He totally knew that was what our answer was going to be, but that was kind of the point of asking, right? He was just checking. And that's what kids do, and so holding those expectations is a really important part of helping them feel safe and protected and supported. Because the expectations, even if something happens and they don't meet those expectations, we're still going to be there to support them. Yeah, uh, well,

Speaker 1 34:24
and I want to dig in a little bit here, because there's some tension, right? Like, there's the tension we don't we aren't okay with our kids using substances. Delay, delay, delay, yes, yes, yes. And then there's this tension of okay, and the teen years is a time where it's pretty typical for our kids to experiment right with risky behavior, and it's come up in my community. And so it's this holding of these. How do we hold these two things

Jessica Lahey 34:55
right? By understanding better from by really understanding. Understanding why kids are geared toward novelty and geared toward risk a little bit, and understanding, you know, for example, that teenagers have lower baseline levels of dopamine than little kids and big adults, and that's why life feels boring to them, and that's why they're I

Casey O'Roarty 35:16
love this, this, I just have to say this part was so I had never read the I knew there was dopamine stuff happening in the teen brain, but the way that you laid it out, I was like, Oh,

Jessica Lahey 35:27
it made a lot of sense. That's what happened to me. I was like, Okay, so when kids are like, I'm so bored, my thing is like, Oh, you unimaginative fool. You know, when I was little, I if I had two sticks and a wad of string, I can entertain. But that's it's because they're and dopamine is not just about joy and pleasure. Dopamine is about like human drive. It's about motivation and drive, and if you and the other thing that's important to understand is, for a kid that has low levels of dopamine to begin with, you take a drug, it, you know, plugs into those receptors like nothing else, because it's pure, you know, substances, as opposed to, like the endogenous stuff we have in our body, which is at lower levels. And then once they come off that drug, they usually their dopamine levels drop to lower than they were baseline in the first place. And you end up in this, you know, place where, you know, because lower so I had a conversation with a teenager just recently, actually, and she was drinking in order to deal with anxiety and some issues with anyway she was dealing, using it to deal with her anxiety. And I had a very blunt conversation with her about what alcohol does over the long term with anxiety, that it makes it much, much worse, that, and that's why I drank. Yeah, I mean, it makes it feel so much better for a very short period of time, but when that alcohol wears off, you are going to be more anxious than you were before you drank. And so essentially, what you're doing is the exact opposite of what you would like to avoid, and just helping kids they're so they can be so geared to. And the other thing about understanding the team brain that's so cool is people say, Oh, well, kids don't understand the consequences of their actions. So not true. They understand the consequences so well, sometimes better than we do. They just weigh the possible benefits more than they do the possible negative consequences. So they weigh the social acceptance, the elimination of anxiety, eliminating social anxiety, eliminating whatever that thing is that they don't want to feel, especially if they've had a lot of trauma, they'll weigh getting rid of that numbing out higher than whatever comes up later, which is something that can be particularly insidious when it comes to trying to get someone into recovery. But understanding the team brain that just really will help you understand how to give them substitutions, like, you know, help them engage in some positive risk, helping them engage in some novelty, helping pushing them towards things that will spur some of that dopamine to happen so that they don't have to and, and, but the thing is, at this, at its core, the most important thing to talk about here is the fact that the reason that most kids pick up for The first time is because they feel like they are not enough, that they don't deserve to be loved, they don't deserve to take up space in the world. They don't deserve to be accepted for who they are. So if we can get that early on, then we can help them not have to take that first drink. And I know that sounds Pollyanna and I know it sounds but I've been a teacher for over 20 years, and I have seen what can happen when a kid suddenly feels competent or worth something, and we can help them do that. And I lay that out in great detail in the book

Casey O'Roarty 38:34
you do, yeah, and that's heading into the third domain that you share about, which is practice. You write, yeah, practices where knowledge and expectation join forces and where action meets consequences. So tell us more about that.

Jessica Lahey 38:50
That's the hard part, because, and that's the reason that they're well, that's the why there are scripts in the book. Because, you know, after touring for Gift of Failure for a long time, parents kept saying to me over and over again, no, no, but tell me what to say. You know. So there's things like scripts to give your kid if they find themselves in a situation where someone's offering them alcohol or drugs or any other risky thing, like trying to get them to engage in premature sex or trying to engage them in something that they don't feel comfortable with giving them under inoculation theory and sort of these refusal skills, giving them things that they can say to get out of there without losing any losing face. Yeah, and that's, you know, just giving kids refusal skills, giving us the data that we need in order to help kids rebut and have inoculation The cool thing about inoculation theory is when we help kids feel empowered, like they have the words and the tools they need in order to sort of stand up for themselves. When it comes to one risky behavior, we actually also inoculate them against other risky behaviors. It generalizes, and we make it that they're so that they're more likely to talk to us about it, which is really, also really cool about inoculation theory. So the tools are the refusal skills, the inoculation theory, stuff, the you know, being consistent, giving you scripts for how you can be consistent, giving you scripts for what you can tell your kids, and starting that education super young. And in the education chapter in particular, I talk a lot about, at each stage, starting with nursery school, how we begin conversations about our bodily autonomy and what we put in it, and why we spit out the toothpaste instead of swallowing it, and why we wash our hands, and why we don't take pills that are in a bottle of medicine with someone else's name on it, without our that doesn't have our name on it. Those kinds of things start really, really young, and that's, you know, where the rubber meets the road in these sort of the practice, that's where there's a lot of scripts, yeah, because I needed them. So I figured, if I needed them, and I know the research, then probably other people did too, yeah.

Casey O'Roarty 40:51
And so I love this sentence too. I think this goes along with because the scripts are super useful and powerful. And you know, delivery matters who we be with our kids matters. And you wrote, If teens feel as though they can trust us to remain supportive and present even during difficult conversations, we are more likely to hear the truth from them. So my 18 year old, who has kept plenty to herself appropriately, but has also shared quite a bit with me. I asked her, because she was pretty she's been really on, you know, it's usually after the fact, hey, I did this thing, you know, and I get to sit with that and feel my feet on the floor and calm my body. And, you know, usually I'll say something along the lines of, well, tell me more about that, because I don't know what else to say. Yeah, yeah. But I asked her last night. I said, Why? Why did you share with me? Like, I'm curious to know. And, you know, at first, before I found this particular

Jessica Lahey 41:57
sense such a good question, that is such a good question. But she was funny. She

Casey O'Roarty 42:02
was like, I, you know, at first she was kind of like, I don't know. And I was like, well, just, I just want you to think about it, because I'm really curious to know what it was about our relationship that you would share after first times. I heard about first times on a variety of things, and would have been better, like, Hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing, but, you know, and so one thing she did say was, Well, I think a little bit was like, hey, look what I can do. I was like, okay, okay, noted, yeah. And then I read that sentence to her, and she was like, Yeah, I knew that you weren't gonna fly off the handle. And I asked her, like, Did that feel like you were releasing a little bit of weight that you were carrying having done something and and me not knowing, and she kind of rolled her eyes at me, and she was like, she said, because that's what her brother sometimes does, like, I have to tell you this thing, because I can't hold it. She's like, No,

Jessica Lahey 42:57
there's also this thing I've noticed with one of my kids in particular, but a lot of my students also is that they're when my kid or my student comes out with something big. And I think about the conversations we've had over the past month, preceding there was some planting of seeds and testing of what my likely response might be. So like, for example, when one of my students came out to me, there had been a lot of conversations about books and films, and if I paid attention to sort of the content, all of those things and that these weren't just random conversations that this student was feeling out how I would react if he came out as gay. To me, it was so obvious in retrospect, but those small this is why the you know, there's such pressure as a teacher or a parent, because those small communications can spell the difference between whether or not someone chooses to confide in you or not. And so then I'm like, Oh man, what did I say in all those small communications? But I can, I can't tell you the number of times a student has come to me with something big, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, there was all that evidence that all that stuff leading up to this that enabled us to have this big conversation. And so, you know, I those that's really great to me, because that's like, okay, so I handled that the right way in the little bits, so that my kid or my student felt that I could handle the big stuff, and that was pretty cool. Yeah,

Casey O'Roarty 44:23
well, and I share my story with permission, because, you know, I know that the goal is, let's just prevent any experimenting, any use. Of course, that's always the goal. And I want listeners out there who know that their kids are using and are worried and are, you know, I want you to know that you're when you're not alone and and you're like, relationship matters, right? Relationship throughout, it matters. And I know that there's also parents that are listening, who are really feeling, you know, we. Can't Ignore context right now, like with the year that we're living through and the state of the world. And I know that there's people feeling rejected and disconnected from their teens right now. What do you have for them? What's an important thing for them to be thinking about and perhaps doing, trying on right now, to mend and to come to a place where they can have a really honest where they can be present and grounded and connected with their kids, I

Jessica Lahey 45:27
think we have to start with the fact that I'm so alcohol consumption went way up during the pandemic, and so there's a lot of people that have been drinking more than usual, and which, you know, drinking in front of your kids, that's something that I that's fine. It's the messaging around the drinking and why you're drinking, like, if you're consistently saying, you know, like, I'm drinking, you know, oh man, today really sucked, and I really just need this glass wine. Or, you know, oh, we have to go to this family function, and there's no way I'm getting through this without a drink, which I could totally I used to do that. So that sort of messaging is one of self medication, and that's, you know, we definitely want to stay away from that, but realize so I only add that because I we know for a fact that adults have been drinking more during the pandemic. So that's important to keep in the just have in there. But right now, I think the way that we come to kids is by empathizing with the fact that, you know, we've missed our friends too, and not, not undermining, not saying, oh, you know, one of the kids that I was talking to recently said, adults keep talking to me about this pandemic by saying they totally get it and that they've been through hard things to but to a teenager, it feels unique. And you and I, before we hit record, we're talking about the fact that, you know, my teenager has been alone for a year and a half, and I was trying to think about what it would have been like for me if I had not been allowed to date, not been allowed to go to school, football games, or whatever it was, dances, those kinds of things when I was 16 and 17, it's like they feel deprived of a big chunk of their childhood. They know they've been deprived of all kinds of stuff that is really about their natural you know how they should naturally be developing and becoming and getting experience with relationships and stuff like that, and so saying it's been hard for us to undermines a little bit the fact that they feel like this is uniquely difficult for them, and, you know, believe that or not, or agree with that or not, that is how many adolescents are feeling, and if we honor that feeling, they're going to be a lot more likely to talk to us. And the other thing that I hear a lot from kids is, I heard this yesterday. Please tell my parents that I don't when I when I need to talk to them, I'm not looking for answers. I'm just looking for them to listen. I don't use them to fix it. I don't want them to fix it for me, I'm looking and as a parent, I totally am guilty of that. I just want to fix it. I want to fix things for my readers. I want to fix things for my students. I want to fix things for my kids. My constant temptation is to find the answers and give them the magic. You know, I have magic wands behind me on the wall because I joke all the time that if I had a magic wand, I would just wave it and fix the problem. But that's not what they want from us. They want a sounding board for so that and we have to also realize that sometimes when and I, as a person who does this a lot, I feel a lot of sympathy for people who also do it, which is sometimes they're not saying, when they say, You know what be cool is to go to South Africa. They're not saying they're going to go to South Africa. They're saying, let's have a conversation about all the possibilities of what that would be like. And I'm not saying I'm going to do it. I'm just saying, let's have a little thought of experiment, and to not freak out and say, oh my gosh, that would derail all of your plans, and that's too dangerous and blah, blah, blah, blah blah. So engage in a lot of active listening, without judgment and without freaking out and getting defensive. That's going to be the very the number one way to get in.

Casey O'Roarty 48:53
Super helpful. What does joyful courage mean to you? Jessica,

Jessica Lahey 48:59
oh, this whole book has been a really, a massive exercise in joyful courage for me, because I am this was the book that I was born to write. This is the book that all of that crap that I've been through has led to, and I'm so proud of it, and I'm so happy. But it has also been terrifying to put my story, and in a way, other people's stories out there into the world, knowing that substance use disorder, that whole field, is really encamped. And so there are people with very strong feelings about how things are expressed and and very schools of thought. And so the whole thing has been like just sheer happiness that this thing is out there, and also having to use a lot of courage, because it's it's really scary to put your stories out there in the world, but I have found that it is incredibly empowering to other people. David Sedaris says this really well. He says, When you reveal the most embarrassing and horrifying things about yourself, more often than not, you will run across people who will say, Oh, that's funny. Me too, and that's been. My experience with

Casey O'Roarty 50:00
this, yeah, where can people find you and follow your work, Jessica

Jessica Lahey 50:04
leahy.com and if you want a signed, personalized, signed copy of the book, there are two bookstores here in Vermont that are right there on Jessica leahy.com right on the front page, that are shipping books that I go down to those stores like twice a week and sign copies and personalize them, and they ship them out for me. So love

Casey O'Roarty 50:20
that. All right, yeah, thank you so much for giving me your time. So great. So great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank

you. All right, thanks again for listening. If you feel inspired and you haven't already, do me a favor and head over to Apple podcast and leave a review. I'm working hard to stand out and make a massive impact on families around the globe. Your review really helps the joyful courage podcast to be seen by even more parents. And as I mentioned at the beginning, if writing a review isn't your jam, just snap a screenshot and share it on Instagram or Facebook. Tag joyful courage and I'll repost it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Be sure to follow me in all the places I love. Connecting with you on social media, via email, all right, okay, friends, take a deep breath. Ride it into your body, find your balcony seat for perspective and trust that everyone is going to be okay. I'll be back next week.

See more