Transcription
Dr. Dan Siegel 0:00
If this book had said nothing but the word repair, it would be a great book, repair, repair, repair, repair, because you can always start again. You can always begin again knowing the direction you want to take. It's kind of like a sailboat for those of you who sail, you know, when you're going toward the wind, go a little bit to the left, then you come through the wind, you go a little bit to the right, and you go through the wind a little bit left you don't say I've got right into the wind. No, it never works like that. You got to go back and forth and back and
Casey O'Roarty 0:28
forth. Hey, friends, Happy New Year. Happy 2020. Oh my gosh. It is wild to be coming to you now in these first few days of a new year, a new decade. Welcome to the joyful courage Podcast. I'm so happy that you're here. I'm Casey, your host, parent coach, positive discipline trainer and mom of two teenagers, on the path of self discovery and self growth as I navigate all there is to navigate on the parenting journey right alongside of you. I'm stoked that you're here. I'm so excited for this show. Oh my gosh. Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson together with me on the podcast today. I know I'm dying. It was so amazing. I felt like I had a seat at the big kids table. They're talking about their new book. You're going to hear all about it. And here I want to let you know something new. So you know that I have a Patreon community, a group of parents that pay $5 a month to be a part of a private community where I do Facebook Lives every Monday, answering questions that come up in the group, or bantering back and forth with anyone who is watching the live at the time that it's being recorded. I'm also adding in a Wednesday edition to the Patreon community where we are going to discuss the podcast. So it's going to be a review of the podcast that came out that week, and patrons get to ask questions, dig deeper with me. Super excited to start that. So if you're interested in just upping the connection that you have with me and with the podcast, head on over to patreon.com/joyful. Courage. That's P, A, T, R, E, O n.com/joyful, courage, and choose in to the $5 membership, and you'll get that extra weekly together time with me on Mondays and Wednesdays in the group. It's pretty awesome. I'm super stoked that you're here. I can't wait to share this show with you. Please let me know what you think. I really appreciate the emails and messages that you send, and especially I appreciate the reviews that you leave on Apple podcasts. The most recent review came in in December from Queen of spirit. Queen of Spirit wrote, I absolutely love how real Casey is and the variety of topics that she covers. For parents really appreciate her energy and spirit. Five stars. So it makes a huge difference when you leave a review, it lets other people who are looking for podcasts know that you love this one, and there's a much better likelihood that they will check it out. So just go on over to Apple podcasts. You can go right into your podcast app, find my show and scroll all the way to the bottom. There should be a little purple link that says, write a review. So yay, yay, yay, yay. Without further ado or conversation, I give you my interview with Dr Dan Siegel and Dr Tina Bryson. You welcome back, listeners. I am so glad to have you, and I'm super excited to let you know that I have two guests on today, and they are both your some of your favorite past episodes. They were the guests for those shows. Dr, Dan Siegel is here. Dan is an internationally acclaimed author, award winning educator and child psychiatrist. He is currently a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine, where he also serves as a co investigator at the Center for Culture, brain and development, and co director of the mindful awareness Research Center. Dan co authored some of our favorite parenting books, including the whole brain child, no drama discipline and the yes brain with the other guests joining us today. He also wrote brainstorm the Bible for parents of teens Parenting from the inside out and aware, which came out the summer of 2018 and he came on to discuss that book with me. Dr Tina Bryson is the other guest that we get to hear from today. She is the co author with Dan Siegel of three New York Times bestsellers soon to be four, and is the Executive Director of the Center for connection in Pasadena, California. Tina is also a pediatric and. Adolescent psychotherapist. She keynotes conferences and conducts workshops for parents, educators and clinicians all over the world. There is so much more I could add to the bios of both of these guests. I could truly go on and on. They're here today to share about their latest book, The Power of showing up, how parental presence shapes who our kids become and how their brains get wired. You all know that this is what I love to talk about. I am completely honored to welcome them back to the show. Dan and Tina, hello, welcome back to the podcast.
Dr. Tina Bryson 5:35
Hi, so glad to be here.
Dr. Dan Siegel 5:38
Great to be here. Thank you. Hello, Casey, hello. Tina,
Dr. Tina Bryson 5:42
hi,
Casey O'Roarty 5:42
yay.
Can you talk a little bit about what brought you to write this particular book and how it's different from what we've already seen from the two of you? Want to start
Dr. Tina Bryson 5:55
See, look, we
both just love each other, so we're just gonna both keep offering each other
Dr. Dan Siegel 6:01
getting the episode where you're driving a Hugo car and they keep on staying there all day long, going, you go,
Dr. Tina Bryson 6:09
Well, you know, I think this book always needed to be written. And I, you know, I was telling someone yesterday, I think this book has been burning to be written for a long time, and I had to write it, and I had to write it with Dan. And I think a big piece of this is, you know, I think Dan and I would both say and Dan correct me if I'm wrong, that it's it would be really rare, regardless of who our audience is, for us to not talk about the main point of this book. So when, wherever Dan and I go, whoever is in our audience, we always, at some point, typically, will talk about the power of presence and the the power of relationships and and helping people build secure attachment in whatever their relationships are. And actually, just a funny kind of little anecdote is that you know this idea that one of the best ways for us to predict how well a kid turns out is by looking at this research from decades and decades and across many cultures that says that the way a parent shows up and Whether the degree to which they provide secure attachment relationships, that this is a huge predictor for how well kids turn out on many things that we measure them on. And what's exciting about that is there's a lot of hope in that message. It's something that we can change, regardless of whether or not we had that kind of attachment growing up, or regardless of where we are now and the way that we raise kids, and so Dan and I sort of always would talk about that, and at the end of whole range, child, which is the book we're most known for, and that is, we're so honored that it's so well loved. At the end of that book, we had this really long conclusion, and a big chunk of it was talking about the main idea from the power of showing up, saying that really one of the most important things we can do is to provide the four S's and to be present and build secure attachment. And our editors said this is so powerful, and it's distracting from all the other super important good stuff in this book. Let's pull it out, and maybe that's a future book. So from the very beginning, it's sort of this book that's been brewing. And so that's one of the things I'm so excited about, is it's like, it's now getting ready to be, you know, it's ready to be born. Now,
Casey O'Roarty 8:31
I love that, and I really speaks to the, I mean, there's so much scaffolding that happens in parenting, and I know, as a parent coach myself. You know, it would be great if, all we if the only thing parents needed were like tools and strategies. That would be amazing, you know, because I can offer tools and strategies, but then you get in the real life situations, the real live challenges, the grocery store, with the melting down toddler, or, you know, the slamming of the the teenage door after a not so great conversation about curfew or homework, and those tools fly out the window, right? Or they become this kind of robotic regurgitation that doesn't really have meaning. So you talked about attachment, Tina and the book starts off with some information about attachment. And I, as I was telling you, before I hit record, my introduction to attachment was that, you know, one of the My Favorite book the first two years was the baby book by Dr Sears, and he talks about attachment parenting. And it's about, you know, I mean, as I think back, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna hold them close and nurse on demand and just meet their needs as they come up. So, you know, that's really what I thought attachment was all about. But there's this whole other expansive realm of information, which is attachment science and attachment theory. What is that about? When you say. That when you throw that out, what do parents need to understand about attachment?
Dr. Dan Siegel 10:04
Well, Casey, it's a really interesting question. And first of all, I just want to say, Tina, what you just said was just so beautiful. And you know, it's such a fun and wonderful honor to do these books together. I was just teaching in Texas, in Houston, actually, and so many people came up about the different books we've written and saying how it impacted them. So I just want to, Tina, I rarely give time to say hey, so I just wanted to say that it's a beautiful thing. And Casey, you right before we start recording, you heard me say that just two days ago. I finished the revisions of the developing mind, which is this book that talks about attachment and the brain and relationships and health and stuff like that. And it's the first kind of book in a whole view of the mind that can be called interpersonal neurobiology. And this was now the third edition with 1000s, literally 1000s, of references. So when you look at attachment, it's important to say that you know words we use are words we use, and so people can use words however they want. When Tina and I are using the word attachment, it draws on the science of attachment, which is a field of study that carefully looks at across cultures like Tina, beautifully mentioned, you know, the way children from the beginning, from infancy, interact with their caregivers, their attachment figures, and how that attachment relationship between the attachment figure, which is often apparent, but it is absolutely not just the mother. It's not even just the mother and father. We as a species have something called aloe, parenting a, l, l, o, and then the word parenting Aloe means other. And Sarah herdy Beautifully writes the scientist beautifully writes about mothers and others that book that captures all of this that we as a species evolved to have more than one attachment figure. So if you hear anyone say to you that a baby is only supposed to be attached to one person, then they're not reading the science. And that is absolutely not what attachment research shows. It's not what the study of being human shows. So you want to be really careful about different approaches and the words they use. And what we try to do is build everything we say on science. And the science of attachment is so powerful. And one of the things that it says is that no matter what happened to you as a parent, how you come to make sense of what happened to you, allows you to be present. So literally, in our terms, you can show up in so many ways. You can show up emotionally, where you're present with your feelings. You can show up with awareness, so you can really be there to take in whatever your child is going through. You can focus your attention with something called attunement, where you focus on the inner life of the child, not just the physical world of the child, and that the child will have a relationship with you and other attachment figures, not just you, that will allow them to learn things like who they are, the importance of relationships, their ability to regulate their own emotional states, their way of realizing that their feelings can be, as Fred Rogers beautifully says, you know, mentionable and then therefore manageable. That's all about secure attachment. And you know, what we do is draw on all this science and just finish the developing mind. Third Edition. I can tell you there's a TON TON TON of science out there, but when you get familiar with it, you can actually synthesize it in a way and then communicate it, which is what Tina and I try to do in a way that's really helpful. So the reason we wrote the power of showing up was because parents really need to know the science and learn how to apply the science in their day to day parenting, so that in terms of attachment, they can have the basics of what they need and making sense of their own past, you know, and then showing up, which basically means being present, so that whatever their child is presenting to them at whatever Age, whether it's their one or 11 or, you know, I've got a 25 year old and 30 year old, you know. And I just hung out last night with my 30 year old. And it's about relationships in general, you know, how do you be present for what's being said? You know, your own expectations or reactions, but then you move yourself toward a more receptive place. And it's really where love comes from, you know, and it's love expressed in the kind of interactions where a child feels felt, feels understood, you know, we bring him into these four S's, and ultimately, what they mean is that a child feels really comfortable in her skin, that she has an internal compass, so that she has resilience. Audience can be both humble and have a lot of, you know, what you call chutzpah, or, you know, have a lot of feeling like, you know, I can, I can take this on. I can feel what's going on inside of me. I know it's just my feelings, but I feel like I can express them to someone else, and we can have mutual belonging in how we connect to each other. So anyway, it's so exciting, because I gotta tell you, Tina and I just finished doing the audiobook for showing up, and it was so thrilling to actually see how these really interesting and important, complex ideas can be laid out for parents in a fun and practical way. Yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 15:42
I want to come back to something, and I know that we could spend the entire time talking about it, and I kind of alluded to it a little bit ago, but that work around, you know, the deeply personal work of parenting, right? So my listeners have heard me say the parenting journey is a lifelong personal development workshop, right? I mean, it's just every day, every interaction sometimes feels like an opportunity for us to recognize, oh, where is this reaction coming from? And, you know what docs dots can I connect? And how can I do something differently, which, if we're on top of things all the time, is exhausting, and I don't expect anyone to be able you know, we're just we're human. We're too human to be perfect, um, but what you said around how we come, it's not about what happened to us, but how we come to make sense of what happened to us as a child. So there's that internal work and my listeners, I've been talking a lot recently about my own journey in therapy over the last couple of months, and, you know, and how useful it is for me. You know, there's certain things that get under my skin, and they get under my skin quick, and to go back and realize, oh, that's where that comes from. That's how I made sense of a particular relationship or situation that would come up time and time again as a child, and then noticing how it is intersecting with my current relationship with my own children. So there's that piece, right and then. And what I really want to get into are these four S's that you alluded to, but I but I do want to say to listeners, and I know that you both would align with this, that it's bigger than just tools and strategies. So I want listeners to really know this isn't about knowing what to do or what to say. It's really about being in the experience of relationship with our child and being curious and inquisitive around. Like, huh, wow. It's really hard for me to navigate this right now, and it's probably less about your child and more about whatever is being brought to the surface for you. Would you, the two of you agree with that? Like, how do you make sense of that in the work that you do?
Dr. Tina Bryson 18:00
Yeah, I would say that we have to remember that a big part of who we are as parents and how our own brains are developed and have developed over time, and the kind of implicit memories that get encoded in us, that are a source of where our reactions come from, you know, what's automatic for us? Oh, the massive portion of that is based on the experiences we've had, right? So the brain wires based on the kinds of experiences we have. And so we we often, as parents, think that we can't, you know, you will, you will rarely see Dan and me say, here are the 123, things you should do in this exact situation. Because every child is different, every parent is different, every situation is different, and the key is really more about being present and attuning. But what's important is that when we don't, well, let me say it this way, Dan and I and in all of our books, always have something in there about our own reflection. And in this book, we call it showing up for ourselves, because we can't provide our children experiences that wire their brains in optimal ways or in ways that we intend for them to be developed like to learn how to actually be present like we want our children to learn how to be present and not distracted and disconnected. We can't give our children those experiences if we're not modeling them and if we're not doing them. And so that's why that portion of self exploration and the ongoing journey, as you beautifully said, it is so important, in addition to what the science says, which is that the best predictor for how we're able to be present and provide secure attachment experiences to children, whether we're the parent or the grandparent or the teacher or whoever else it is, the caregiver providing the support to the child, is not whether or not we had those experiences, but rather, have we come to make sense of them? Have we come to in the literature, it's called a coherent narrative? Have we developed a coherent narrative or a story where we're not running from the past and running from looking at our experiences, but we're also not flooded and entangled with them in a way that they control us without us having some awareness and some intentionality around it. And so that's why looking at this, looking at ourselves is so important. And Dan, I had the same experience when I read my half of the audiobook. You know, Casey, this is a this. This can be a really tough topic to talk about because, you know, we're really wanting to talk to parents who are really checked out or distracted, disconnected, still consumed in their own challenges that they haven't worked through yet. And we want to say to them, like, what your child needs most from you is to show up, or to the parents who are hyper parenting and thinking they have to do and be everything and provide their kid with stuff or with tons of enrichment classes. And the most expensive this and the most expensive that, and to say to those parents, you don't need to do all of that. What your child needs most from you is to show up. And in this book, we address hard stuff, like saying, you know, here's what happens in your child's brain when you are the source of terror or fear. You know, when you and your spouse or your significant other are screaming at each other in front of your children that can have a significant impact on your child's nervous system in that moment. And so we're talking about really hard things. And I I just felt moved time after time as I was reading the audiobook, because I feel like this book is a warm, generous, kind, welcome invitation to parents to do that work that you're talking about there, where we say you don't have to be perfect. You can mess up all the time. You can have your own struggles and things that you're working through, and you can continue to reflect on those and show up so that your child can reap the benefit of this secure attachment.
Casey O'Roarty 22:10
Beautifully spoken, Thank you, Tina. I'm so excited to get my hands on this book.
Dr. Dan Siegel 22:16
No, it's so beautiful. And queso, just to build on what Tina, you're magnificently articulating is, you know, I mean, I think part of the challenge of both being a parent and also, you know, being someone who writes books to really communicate directly with parents is, you know, the idea that, either way, as a parent or a writer for parents, you would have a notion of like what should be or the right way to do things or stuff like this. So both as parents, Tina and I really try to take on what I'm about to say, and also as as writers for parents, we want to really recognize that while we're trying to summarize the science that points us in a certain direction, let's say like attunement, or any of the S's you know, like seeing your child, you know, sensing their inner world is what that is, soothing your child, feeling their distress, having The presence to be able to help them feel soothed and to get calm and teach them, ultimately, the skill of internally regulating that distress and safe where you both protect them from harm. But also, as Tina's pointing out, moments when there might be things happening from you or from you and your spouse, or something that you're doing where you create terror in your child that is incredibly disruptive to a child's sense of security, the fourth s so there's being seen, there's being sued, there's safe, and then those build into security. The issue is that life is, you know, as Ed Tronic would call it, messy, relationships are often not attuned. You're often not seeing someone. You're not soothing them. Sometimes you do do things that terrify them. So the key is not that we outline, let's say the first three S's and say, Hey, be the ideal parent and do this all the time. What we're saying is the science is really clear, these three S's, and maybe even another one we talk about throughout, which is making sense of the world. You know, this way, it's called epistemic trust. This way that you come to understand the nature of reality through these interactions with your parents, your attachment figures, is embedded in being seen and embedded in being soothed and being safe, and then you develop this overall model of security. But the issue is the messiness, the disconnection, the inevitable ruptures. That's a part of life. The fact that there are ruptures doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. It means you're human. And so the challenge that Tina and. I always have when we write any of these books. And certainly showing the true in the power of showing up as well is we say, well, okay, how can we give, just as you said, Tina, this kind loving invitation to say, hey, that we're in this together. So here's how we flub up as parents. And you know, let's look at what a kind of a pathway we would want to set out for being seen soothes, and say how that is, knowing that there's always the messiness of disruptions and disconnections, and in fact, that just means you're human, and it's the repair is the word that's used for it. Scientifically, you can call it reconnection or realignment, or kind of establishing the being seen, of your child being sooth, of your child being safe, of your child so that instead of you beating up on yourself and saying, Oh, I'm a terrible parent, I I read Tina and Dan said, do this. And I didn't do it. I'm just horrible. I mean, you can beat up on yourself if you want, but you don't need to do that, because all it means, and all we're trying to say in these books and showing up as just one summary of all this stuff, what we're trying to say is, look ruptures to connection along these S's happen all The time. Having the view of the S's is really, really, really crucial, because then what allows you to sense is when those ruptures have happened. Because if this book had said nothing but the word repair, it would be a great book, repair, repair, repair, repair, because you can always start again. You can always begin again knowing the direction you want to take. It's kind of like a sailboat for those of you who sail, you know, when you're going toward the wind, go a little bit to the left, then you come through the wind, you go a little bit to the right, and you go through the wind a little bit. You don't say, I've got right into the wind. No, it never works like that. You got to go back and forth and back and forth, you know. And that way of constantly course correcting is what these repairs are about. So we always take a deep breath when we write these books and say, how do we communicate this in a supportive, loving, Invitational way, just like Tina's saying so that instead of it feeling like a listing of judgmental ways you should be if you fail this with the word fail, I'm saying it because we That's not a word you need to have, but people will get, oh, I failed. I failed. I failed. No, no, no, no, no, no, you didn't you're aware that something is not happening in the way it could, and you now can repair that moment and reconnect, because now you have a guideline for the direction you want to sail your boat, and you're going to go through the wind of ruptures as you go a little left, right. And that's what it means to be human, and you can be kind to yourself. You know, that's both the challenge of writing a book that says, hey, here's what the science says, and also the opportunity is for us to be able to articulate in a way where, you know, it's really as supportive and embracing of these ruptures and the importance of repair, because that's actually where kids learn resilience, because they say, Oh yeah, I wasn't seen then and there was a repair. I wasn't soothed, oh, then there was repair, or I even felt scared and there was a repair. So I'm not saying you have to create intentional ruptures in those things, because they're going to happen anyway. Remember, we're all human, and repair actually builds resilience.
Unknown Speaker 28:29
I love that. What's
Dr. Tina Bryson 28:30
great about what you just said there, Dan too, is that, you know, not only does it build resilience, but it also widens a child's window of tolerance for having conflict in other relationships. So it's like, okay, yeah, there's conflict in relationships. And I survived it. It was okay on the other end, you know it, we made things better, and maybe we understand each other more. There's even more connection, or more intimacy. And I think, you know, it's again, another opportunity for kids to deal with sort of sitting in a place that doesn't feel good or doesn't feel right, kind of a moment of more negative emotion, and to say, I can tolerate that. I can, I can handle it because I have these, you know, other people in my life, or these people in my life that will show up for me at some point, right? And that's what I love about this too, is that, you know, while it's not, you know, the book is not in the approach, and the science does not lead us to a place where we have a very specific point one, A, B and C, you know, then you move to point two. Roadmap that's very specific and formulaic. It is very practical. Because, you know what Dan just laid out there with this? You know, the safe scene sooth, leading to the experience of secure. You know, I, in some ways, I actually think it's more useful than having a very specific, formulaic approach, because there are lots of moments. And anyone who's a parent or has ever been in a relationship knows this, that there are lots of moments, you know, as a parent. As a clinician, as a daughter, as a wife, as all of these roles that I play that I'm not exactly sure what the best response is in the moment. I'm not sure exactly which way to go, but I think having that you know, whatever is happening in the moment, the four S's are my North Star. They are always the answer. You know, if your teenager comes home having been drinking, or your three year old is melting down because the tail broke off of her goldfish cracker, or your significant other feels like you know you were you were not considering them when you showed up 30 minutes later, whatever, whatever it is, if we can show up in that moment and help the other person feel safe and seen and soothed. That's always the right answer.
Casey O'Roarty 30:52
Hey, friends, I'm just jumping in to interrupt the interview for one moment. I have to let you know that I'm super excited to be putting together a new free mini summit for all of you parents out there with teenagers. This time, it's five interviews with five experts that I have handpicked, and we are talking adolescent mental health. We are talking about the hard stuff. We are talking about self harm, we're talking about anxiety and depression. We're talking about eating disorders. We're talking about, you know, new therapies that are making a big difference in the lives of teens. I am so excited to welcome my guests, and I'm so excited to share the conversations with you again. This is a FREE Mini Summit, and you can sign up right now by going to joyful courage.com backslash M H Mini Summit. Joyful, courage.com/m. H Mini Summit. All one word. You just need to leave your name and your email, and then you're registered. Yeah, super easy. The summit is the first full week of February, and yeah, it's going to be amazing. So I really want you to check it out. Joyful courage.com/m. H, mini Summit. All right, back to the interview. I love that Tina. It gives us, I like to think of it as an anchor, right? It gives us an anchor. And that, again, it comes back to not having a script necessarily, but having a place to drop into, and the freedom like I just as I even as I said, dropping in, I kind of dropped my body down. But then what I really recognize is there's so much freedom and expansiveness when I think about, okay, safe scene, soothed. All right, what could that look like in this moment? I also want to go back to the repair conversation, just really shortly, and say that, Tina, I think you mentioned, like, what we want to nurture in our kids. We get to model for them. And I think that when we talk about, we have conversations about repair and and the courage to be imperfect, as we'd say, in positive discipline, there is an opportunity to model personal responsibility, right? It's our kids opportunity to say, Okay, look my grown ups, who I know love me, but they're human. You know, you make a mistake, and then, even though it's uncomfortable, even though there's whatever going on, we're going to come and own it and make it right and reconnect. And I think that's a lovely opportunity to model as well. But back to the S's, because I really want to, I want to know what do they look like in action, right? Safe scene, soothed. What do you lay out in the book, as far as what these S's look like in action, even considering like, Okay, well, the first thing it looks like is the parent is regulated and recognizing that there's an opportunity in front of them, right? So from that place, what might it look like?
Dr. Tina Bryson 33:53
Well, let me tell a quick story about like a five year old kid, and then I'll tell a quick story about a teenager, so we can sort of see what this looks like. So, you know, I think one thing that's important to keep in mind is that this idea of showing up in the moment, being present and helping your child feel safe, seen and soothed, so that over time, their brain securely knows that if they have a need, someone will see it and show up for them. And then over time, then they are able to do that for themselves, help themselves, be safe, seen and soothed, and expect that their friends and their future partners will do that for them too. You know, that's that's sort of the arc of what we're talking about here. A lot of people assume that when we talk about that, we're talking about being permissive. And so I want to be, I'm going to give a story about, how do we set a boundary while helping our kids feel these S's, and so the first thing is to know is that boundaries and being predictable and knowing how your parents gonna respond can actually help kids feel safe, right? So that's a piece of safety, but being regulated ourselves is the key. So one time, my little guy, who was about five at the time, he was really exhausted. And he was filthy. And, you know, normally I'd be like, Fine, skip the bath. But for whatever reason this night, I felt like it was not negotiable. And he had a meltdown getting in the bathtub. And then when it was time to get out, he was having a meltdown about getting out. And you know, he was upset about this one particular Lego guy. You know, it's not worth getting into the details. You guys know, you can fill in the details, you know, this scene. So it's time for JP to get out of the tub. And so I say to him, first of all, I'm checking and making sure I'm regulated, because he's already been melting down for a while, you know, melting down to get into the tub. Now it's time to get out, and now he's unhappy about getting out. So I make sure I'm regulated. One of the ways I do that is and something I learned from Dan, I put a hand on my heart and a hand on my abdomen, right below my belly button, and just apply just a little bit of pressure, which is sort of just like a little check in. And it's something that actually is a really soothing experience. So I just sort of, it's almost like, Okay, I'm grounded. I can do this. And so I say, JP, it's time to get out. And, you know, he then says, he starts going into this kind of amazing for a five year old, like, rhetoric, where he's like, You can't get me out of the bath, because this isn't even a bathtub, and I'm not even in a bath, you know. And he starts, like, doing all this really cute stuff, which I didn't really find that amusing at the time, but anyway, I said, Okay, well, it's time to get out. You can either get out or as gently as I can, I'm going to help your body get out so he doesn't get out. So as I'm lifting him out of the tub, which so this is I've set the boundary, it's time to get out. I'm enforcing the boundary, it's time to get out. So I'm lifting him out, and he starts screaming and yelling and kicking. And I say, I know you're so mad about having to get out of the tub you really wanted to stay in. So in that moment, he feels safe because he knows I'm regulated, I'm, you know, predictable in reinforcing the boundary. I'm not causing him distress by being really overreactive or screaming at him or hurting him in some way. He gets the scene when I say, I know, so my my response, if you're so mad about getting out his internal experience and how I respond are a match. So he's like, she gets me. And then I say, if you need to cry or yell, I'm right here with you. While you do that, I will help you. I'm right here with you. So there's the soothed piece, like I'm going to help you come down. I've got you. I'm here with you. So then he knows, then at the end of that experience, and you know, within a few minutes, he calmed down, and the dog came up and did something funny, and that helped us transition to bedtime. But you know, in that experience, I'm holding the boundary. But he he feels held, and he knows that I can tolerate his big emotions, that he can tolerate his big emotions with support. And so then over time, his brain gets practiced going from that dysregulated state back into a state of regulation, because I showed up in that moment with presence. Now I can tell you lots of stories when I didn't do the 4s as well, but those are probably less helpful. They're more humorous, but less helpful. And then I'll just really quickly tell about an adolescent, and it's a story from a clinical my clinical practice. So of course, I'll change some details to protect privacy. And by the way, anytime Dan and I tell stories about our kids, it's because we have permission to tell them we're always respectful of that. So anyway, I was working with a family where the mom was a massive yeller. She just had a massive fear response when her children did things that she was worried that would lead to negative consequences, whether that was getting a bad grade or doing something more dangerous. So she called me and she said, My son came home drunk last night. He was an adolescent, and she said he was throwing up, and so I knew it wasn't a good time to talk to him. He's still sleeping this morning, and I need to talk to you before I interact with him, because I'm going to flip my I know I'm going to do more harm. So we sort of talked through, you know, first of all, getting in touch with how afraid she felt, you know, and she her brother had been an alcoholic, and so she had a lot of fears around this. And so we sort of first said, this is, let's, let's be present to this moment with your child in this circumstance, and not bring all of that sort of sharp music into the moment as best we can. And really, as I coached her, she was able to sit down with her son and say, and this was such a beautiful way that we constructed, I think, to talk about this instead of screaming and yelling and potentially creating less communication, to be able to say, my first job is to keep you safe, and when you make decisions that don't keep yourself safe, I'm going to step In. I'm going to come in and the parameters are, you know, the guardrails are coming in closer because I will keep you safe. And I understand why you may have, you know, experimented with drinking last night, but I'd love to hear more about what the appeal was for you. And they were able to have this collaborative conversation where she was able to get. It to safe scene. And then, you know, the soothed piece was more just sort of the night before, and that morning, how are you feeling? Are you feeling okay with deal? Let's get you some hydration, you know, just providing some of those physical needs at that time. But I think that idea of and then, of course, at the end of the conversation, then we all together, talked about what those parameters would be, and what? How are we going to be problem solvers going forward to make sure he's safe and and that there are some accountability in place as well. Again, it's not permissive, but it's about helping the child know at the end of the day that if something goes wrong, if they are in distress, if they have a need, we will see it and we will show up for them, flawed, not perfect, but ultimately, that's what our aim is.
Casey O'Roarty 40:47
Thank goodness for the two of you. I love that. Dan, do you have any stories to add?
Dr. Dan Siegel 40:53
Oh, I've got a ton of stories. Casey, I just want to sit with those two beautiful stories. Dina said, just exquisite. But I think the story to say, to build on Tina's beautiful stories, is the internal state that we have as a parent. And let's just use these two examples, where you are at with your own inner world. And if you want to call that your mind or awareness, or whatever you want to call it, when we use the term showing up. We mean it on a number of different layers that we talk about in the book. And this layer that I prefer to now is the layer of, how do you have the presence of mind to really not freak out? Let's say in terms of the last example, you know, when you get this message about your adolescent being drunk and you had a drunk brother, you know, how do you actually stay in this field of awareness that allows you to literally show up yourself for the experience so you're not back In the memories of your brother being drunk and and almost losing his life, or the way he threatened other people, or all the things that addiction can create. So instead of getting lost in those reco excuse me, those recollections. You are now in this position of saying, Thank you memory. Yes, those are all real. I've taken the time to make sense of how my addicted brother, affected the family, affected me, affected my development, affected my attitude towards alcohol, all these layers. Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad I took the time. So that's the making sense, showing up, process internally, and now you take that presence of mind, and if you want to think about it in this story, just to think about a way of understanding it. You know, if someone's shown up for their own past experiences to reflect on them and make sense of them, then what happens if you picture it like a container of water if you haven't made sense of your past, your container of consciousness, if you will, is like the size, let's say, of a thimble, or let's make it an espresso cup size. When a challenge in your parenting or anything else in life comes up, think of it like a tablespoon of salt. And if you haven't made sense of your past, then what happens is your container of consciousness is really restricted, especially when a particular hot button issue comes up, in this case, alcohol drinking because of your experience with your brother. Now that's a challenge. That's a tablespoon of salt. It's dumped into this espresso cup size volume of water, and now you try to drink it. It's too salty, you get overwhelmed. It's not palatable. You can't drink that. But imagine if you took time to say, let me understand these S's. How did I have the experience in my own childhood of being seen, of being soothed, of being safe, of making sense when I was a kid and making sense of it now. So I can move even if I had insecurity from my childhood, I can move beyond these unresolved traumas and losses, or beyond this leftover garbage. You can call it this leftover stuff, you know. So now I've made my container of consciousness go from espresso cup size to 100 gallons. And now, whether I'm doing, you know, journal writing, or doing the wheel of awareness and expanding the hub of the wheel, we could talk about that, or, you know, going to therapy, or whatever the mechanism is to build that container of consciousness, I've now done it so that now I get the phone call. You know, my adolescent is drunk. Now that's the tablespoon of salt it gets pushed into my experience, my mind, my awareness. But now, instead of being espresso cup size, I've done the work. So it's 100 gallons. Stir it up, and then what's the water like? Taste. Yeah, it's fresh water. So that's really the inside aspect of showing up. It's that you are doing the work in all these different ways that we outline in the book, you know, so that when you get that phone call, or when you know something happens with your two year old or your four year old or eight year old, or whatever you know, different ages. There's stories you can tell over and over and over again of what it's like when a parent doesn't show up, you know, or whether nowadays, people are distracted on their phones and their computers and, you know, can have a whole family together for a dinner, and everyone's on their little phone. It, you know, that's not showing up. That's literally not showing up. But even if their phone's put away, if someone is pulled away because of their memories of their alcoholic brother, they're not going to be able to show up and be fully present, to be in this receptive awareness, which is Tina beautifully pointed out, it's not about being passive. It's actually about being receptively present. And all the research is very clear, parental presence is the fundamental way that it isn't so much what we do, it's how we've come to be, and that way of being is something you can learn, and that's why we write these books, because it's not just like, Oh, are you this kind of person or not? No, if you are good for you, if you're not, too bad, no, you can actually learn to be present. You know, if you couldn't learn it, there'd be no reason to write a book on showing up or in parenting the inside out, or any of the books we write it, the whole idea is, you know, how can you say I'm fine the way I am, and there's room for growth,
like so that's, that's the, that's the tender balance, Right? And, and sometimes you need to expand your container of consciousness so you can really show up. And sometimes, and Tina mentioned the word the window of tolerance. And I was just, you know, reviewing that term from its initial use in the developing mind the first edition, you know, it's the idea that there's a window, if you can picture it, and the band of that window is where you you can get the message. My adolescent is drunk and you stay integrated, is where we would say you stay flexible and open and receptive. That's what showing up is you stay in that window. And if you move outside of the window, it's going to go either to chaos. On the one hand, you're flipping out, you're screaming, you're shouting, or rigidity, you shut down and you get really, really like that, you know. And whether you're in chaos or rigidity, you're now out of the window. So what, what the showing up book tries to do is, as Tina beautifully said, you want to widen that window, especially for issues that are particularly vulnerable for you, like addiction, let's say in this particular story. And as you widen that window before you did it, it was so narrow you flipped out into chaos or rigidity. You were no longer showing up in chaos, no longer showing up in rigidity. You're now reactive, rather than receptive. And all we're saying is that being receptive lets you parent well and role model for your child, that even if things get really tough, whatever the salt is of life, your container is so widened that you can take it and stay with fresh water and drink that water
Dr. Tina Bryson 48:37
that's beautiful and so powerful. One of the ways that we do that is by doing that reflection piece, and by by looking at the kinds of things that have contributed to who we are and the kinds of reactions we have so that they don't sort of hold us hostage, right? And so the one of the ways we we widen that if for ourselves, is by doing that making sense process, which is, you know, why we offer it in the book, and, you know, I think one of the for me personally, when I started learning about this and was able to kind of reflect on the experiences I had had and the kinds of attachment experiences I had with both of my parents and my grandparents, and, you know, other people in my lives, my even my Significant romantic relationships and best friends, that what came to be for me. And, you know, actually a really funny story is when I learned about the adult attachment interview from Dan, which is sort of the gold standard for how we might assess adult attachment patterns. Is that, you know, there are these questions that we asked to learn about, sort of the mental models or expectations about relationships. And so I Dan, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I had a family dinner, you know, with my dad and his parents and my sister and I started sort of floating some of those questions out there, you know, as part of the family conversation and the. Answers were phenomenally helpful and very textbook, and helping me understand the kind of pattern of attachment I had received as a legacy coming from my grandparents and then my dad and then to me. And you know, when I really understood the I feel like everybody needs to understand these patterns of attachment and how they have influenced us, because then it can free us. It can provide so much healing. When I understood my dad's attachment wiring and what his experience was from his parents, and how that impacted how he parented me, it was incredibly healing and freeing for me to say, Gosh, it wasn't about me not being lovable. It was really that my dad's brain didn't get wired to give much attention to emotions or to give much attention to my internal world or his own. He didn't know how to do that, and so when I was able to realize that it actually not only healed and freed me, but it allowed me to move to a place of compassion for him and to say, Wow, he didn't get that growing up. And he didn't get that because his parents didn't, and no one along the way yet had done that reflective process. And so, you know, I think maybe just one reason to buy the book and keep it on your bookshelf forever, so that maybe our grown kid, our children when they're grown someday, can read it and provide compassion to us and give us a pass too. But I think that's just remarkable for us, to really be able to go back through the generations to provide our own healing, but also to offer sort of compassion within ourselves, but also to our own parents and grandparents, and to know that, you know, most of us do the best we know how to do given what's going on, and that's why these books are so important. Is because, and this is another Dan phrase, is we can shine the light of awareness on who we've come to be based on our relational experiences, and then we can be intentional and not just follow those old patterns that got wired. You know, over generations
Casey O'Roarty 52:05
I love that. I have my own short story, a family trip with extended family this last summer, where I normally slide into my 17 year old defensive self as things come up, in conversation with this particular part of my family. And I made an intention at the beginning of the week that I would be my my fully conscious 45 year old self, and see what happened. And I had the best time. And I even was able to kind of notice in it, as an observer, the places where I might have my 17 year old self could have gotten very tied up in a particular comment or a particular look, and it was as if I provided myself some space to see it all happening in front of me and to show up different so I am all for the Personal development work and my listeners know that I am like, Woohoo. Let's do it. Figure yourself out. And there is no like, Final Destination there, like you said, Dan, there's that container of consciousness. There isn't like, okay, and so once you get to the swimming pool size, you're good. You know that it's really this beautiful ongoing opportunity that we have to continue to grow and develop and elevate and expand. And I'm just so so so grateful for the work that the two of you are doing. I love your books. I know my listeners. I talk about you both tons listeners. Don't forget that I have two interviews with Tina. I'll put them in the show notes that you can go back to and listen to. And Dan you and I had that great conversation about your book, aware, where you did talk about that espresso size cup and the big container and the salt and and it just reminded me, as you were saying, that of how, how juicy that conversation that you and I had was. So listeners know that you can get to those interviews in the show notes. I'll put the links in the show notes. Is there anything else that the two of you would like, any little pearls of wisdom beyond the amazing last hour that we had that you'd like to leave listeners with before we say goodbye?
Dr. Tina Bryson 54:11
I'd like to just remind all of us that this science is full of hope, and that when we begin to reflect on some of the stuff. Sometimes it's a little heavy, and sometimes it can be, you know, painful, and I you know the there are several paths of hope that this research leads us to. One is we can absolutely change what our past relational wiring has led us to, that that when we begin to reflect and make sense of it, we can begin to change how we are able to show up in the moment with our kids. So that's one path of hope. A second path of hope is when we start to do that, when we start making changes to be more present, to not terrify our children, but instead calm ourselves. And help them feel safe and help use empathy to help them feel know that we understand them and that we're there to help them calm down, that when we start doing those kinds of things, our children start responding to that, and it starts changing the experiences they have that are wiring their brains as well. And so, you know, that's that's a lot of hope, but I think the last thing I'd like to say, and then, Dan, I'd love to hear your last, you know, thoughts, because I always just would sit and listen to you talk all the time, is that, you know, I think this, it, this idea is simple, that really, all, really, what our kids need most from us is to be present. But it's not always easy to do. And I think one of the most important things we also need to keep in mind is that we need to have people who show up for us. You know, Dan talked about allo parenting, and in our society, we're often pretty isolated in this parenting world. And so if we're going to show up for our kids, we need to make sure we have people in our lives that are helping us feel safe, seen and soothed and secure, and so we've got to have people around us that show up for us, so that we have the capacity to do it for our kids.
Casey O'Roarty 56:06
Thanks, Tina,
Dr. Dan Siegel 56:08
yeah, that's beautiful. I first of all, I love listening to you, Tina, too. So it's a mutual fan club. And Casey, thank you for giving us this opportunity to to to be with you here. And I guess the thing, the final kind of words I would say for this conversation would be about kind of two, two things. One, you know, is the notion that, with showing up, the idea is that, as we've tried to say today, and also in the book, you know, it isn't about perfection. It's about presence, you know, and and showing up is really about cultivating the art of being present, which isn't always about doing stuff, and it's not always about, you know, doing the right things or anything like that. It's dropping out of those shoulds and actually dropping into this place of awareness. And we did talk about a lot last in our conversation, but the idea that you can just be present, to show up and be ready for what's happening. The second thing that's very much related to that is the idea of identity, and this is a hard one to talk about in general. I mean, I just this the last chapter of the developing mind. There's an entire chapter about it, about identity. But I'll just say this, that we may have been getting messages in our modern culture that we all have been embedded in, and that these messages, they may have been around for at least 2500 years, so a long, long time. And then we're born into this world, into these bodies, into this life, and we get a message that there are categories that exist in the world, like self and other, or, you know, concepts like there's somebody in that body that you were born into, that you were called Casey or Tina or Dan, and those are understandable concepts from the categories that we actually construct. And then we have words like our names or even the word self, you know. And so these words, these linguistic symbols, they become part of how culture shapes our experience of reality. So for example, as a parent, you have all this evolutionarily, you know, created hardwiring as a parent to really want to protect your child and be certain of things, and be certain this child will grow well, and you know, be happy. And you know, however you define success, you know you want them to be successful and really do well in life and all these things totally understandable to have some kind of drive for certainty. But here's the thing about this whole business seeing the self as separate, that there's a case in Casey's body that's only in the body, or maybe even only in the brain. Like people say, the mind is the same as the brain, and that's what all my you know, academic books are about, is challenging that 2500 year old statement. You know that, in fact, it's not just a partial truth that is, of course, the brain has a lot to do with what goes on in the mind, but if the self comes from the mind, it's important to realize that the mind and the self are not just in your brain. They're fully in your body. So we're fully embodied, but we are also, at the same time, fully relational. So who Casey is, who Tina is, who Dan is, is our relationships with one another and with Earth. And part of what's happened, I think, on the planet that's leading to such levels of depression, anxiety and suicide, as well as destruction of our ecological systems, is that people have taken that. Message, the self is separate. And on the earth side, they treat earth like a trash can. And on the individual side, you live with this feeling of despair, like something is profoundly wrong. And the good news about becoming aware and showing up for that possible mistake. And EO Wilson, the biologist you know, calls it a kind of a sensory limitation that leads to an illusion of separateness. Einstein called it an optical delusion of consciousness. So whether it's a mistaken view from sensory limitations or a psychotic belief, I want to urge all parents and all of us really in our modern culture to think that this second point that we cling to the certainty of a separate self because we're desperate to try to guarantee safety for our children, but that desperate clinging to what an artist on the Brooklyn Public Library writes as the flimsy fantasy of certainty is actually destroying our well being, and instead, what does that mean? It means we realize that uncertainty is what life is made of, and so learning to not just tolerate uncertainty, but actually welcome it lets us really fully show up so we're not trying to filter everything through our expectations so we can be certain of the outcome. And the other thing that it does is it takes our identity and it says, Okay, I do have an interior, bodily aspect to who I am that's a me or an I. Yet I also, at the same time, have a relational side to my identity, a we or an us, and one way we can say that is me plus we, equals we, M, W, E. And what's been so interesting teaching this to kids and adolescents and even adults, is we becomes a linguistic symbol that goes back to create a concept that who you are as both within and between, and a category that actually you are nature, you are your relationships. So with mui, we get the opportunity to actually liberate ourselves from the false perception or the psychotic belief of separation and together, we can bring more kindness, compassion, connection as we show up for each other and for Earth,
Casey O'Roarty 1:02:26
that's beautiful. Yeah, I'm just gonna give a moment of silence to let that sink in, because that's, that's so it, it's so much bigger than parenting, right? I mean, we kind of can focus in on our kids and everything, but what I'm really hearing you speak into is this human experience and how it's, you know, it's a it's a part of us, it's a part of the planet. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to dive into that. I think it's so profound and such beautiful permission, I know, for me and my current experience, I am definitely a student of uncertainty and not really loving it, Dan gonna be honest, but also recognizing when I give myself permission To just be with it, that it's actually really freeing. So thank you.
Dr. Dan Siegel 1:03:24
Well, you know the synonym for uncertainty, while it freaks everybody out initially, is actually possibility and freedom. You know, beautiful.
Casey O'Roarty 1:03:38
I mean, I could do a whole nother hour with the two of you, but I'm sure you have other things to do. Thank you so much for coming on. Please. When is the book coming out? And where can listeners get it? January 7, 2020,
Dr. Tina Bryson 1:03:52
they can order it at any online or a physical, actual bookstore. And between now and when the book is released the website, the power of showing up. Book.com will provide pre orders with a color copy of the refrigerator sheet of all the main points
Dr. Dan Siegel 1:04:11
bonus. And you can see us in person at different places, either individually or collectively. And you can find that on Tina's website or my website. And so there's opportunities to actually dive into this journey together in person.
Dr. Tina Bryson 1:04:25
Yeah, come join us somewhere. We always love getting to visit with people and connect in person and do some face to face stuff.
Casey O'Roarty 1:04:32
Yay. I'll make sure those links are in the show notes. I hope you're coming up to Seattle. I won't miss you if you do.
Dr. Dan Siegel 1:04:37
You there the second weekend of January it was actually Tuesday, I think, yeah,
Casey O'Roarty 1:04:42
okay, great, yay. Well, thank you, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Dr. Dan Siegel 1:04:47
Thank you case, thank you. Tina,
Dr. Tina Bryson 1:04:49
thank you. Dan,
Casey O'Roarty 1:04:53
oh, my gosh, wasn't that so amazing? I feel so super honored and grateful that. Dan Siegel and Tina Bryson made time to come and talk on my show. Now, get out there and get your hands on their book. It's so amazing. They're so amazing the work that they're putting out in the world. Just, I mean, it changes everything, right? It changes everything. And I'm just honored that I get to be in relationship with them. I'm honored that I get to be in relationship with you. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget that the conversation is going to carry on tomorrow in the Patreon group. So if you are not already a $5 subscriber once a month paying five bucks towards the joyful courage podcast. Then get on over to patreon.com/joyful courage and sign up so that you can be a part of our discussion of this very podcast, this very conversation tomorrow in our private group. Anybody else, don't forget, we've got community and conversation happening at the live in love with joyful courage, Facebook group and joyful courage. For parents of teens, you can follow me on Instagram at joyful underscore courage, or just my business page on Facebook, joyful courage. Thank you everyone. Thank you, Tay, for all the work you do for me. Chris Mann at pod shaper, thanks for the way you make my show sound so good. Appreciating you. Thank you, Allison Tedford, for writing my show notes. I will see all of you next week for a brand new solo show. Until then, be well, be calm. Take breaths. Show yourself some self compassion. This work is not for the faint of heart.
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